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Tamerlane
04-07-2012, 01:03 PM
A lot of experienced players tend to shun pick-up groups because they risk the 10% bonus for having no one die during a quest.

I suggest that the 10% bonus be replaced by a 2% stacking bonus for each additional real life player in your group. That way, in a full group of 6 players you would still get the 10% even if someone got killed (22 times).

maybe even leave the 10% bonus for not dying available for players that solo or use hirelings.

If you give rewards for a behavior (in this case: not dying), people will adopt that behavior (not taking along people that might dye). if you want to encourage a behavior (bringing along more/new players), the you have to reward that behavior (give an exp bonus for taking additional players).

daniel7
04-07-2012, 01:20 PM
I like the idea.

MRMechMan
04-07-2012, 01:28 PM
From an *elitest* perspective:

1. Still not really anything to stop someone from just parking 5 boxes at the door. I don't know if the game system can tell the difference between a box and a real life person. I doubt it.

2. 2% more xp for inviting 1 person is almost nothing. If that person dies you are still -8% behind till you get 4 more noobs.

3. They still slow you down usually.

4. They take away mob agro from you when often you want it (BB kiting, torcing,you have better survivability).

5. They agro mobs that shouldn't be.

6. They don't know how to run invisible.

7. They cause dungeon alert.

8. They cause dungeon scaling.

9. They whine when they die.

10. They say stupid stuff like ask why you are doing this quest for the 8th time (because it is 2k/min still, that's why)

11. They don't know how to grab windows.

12. They often can't solo.

13. Even if they are good, non-TRs often have no motivation to stick around for more than a few quests-it's just not needed at all.

I pug anyway. If someone understandably does not want to pug, giving them 2% more xp per other player just isn't enough incentive. That is....200xp more per shadow crypt run...cmon. That is not gonna motivate people to put up lfms.

There WOULD be a point where people would want to bring more players along. Maybe 10% more xp per player would cause vets to either

a)get a few alt accounts to get an easy boost of XP for easily boxed quests

or

b) use the lfm panel to get more players and then tell anyone who joins to shut up and pike at the entrance.

That way they get the 10% crowded room bonus and the 10% the other players didn't move and thus didn't die bonus.

If the motivation doesn't come from within, no amount of heaping on XP will make soloist/zerging type vets into handholding-and-teaching-everyone-the-quest-and-then-we-ride-off-into-the-marshmallow-sunset type vets.

Missing_Minds
04-07-2012, 01:54 PM
A gamer perspective.

There is no mentoring system such that I can play with anyone at any level.

Mastese
04-07-2012, 02:28 PM
I don't like the inclusion of another XP bonus factor at all.

I'd rather see a Guild Renown bonus applied for each non-guild party member in your group. Make it 5% per, up to 25% in a non-raid party. It would make sense that you would earn a boost to Guild notoriety by adventuring with others outside of the Guild. It might be enough to persuade several Guilds to encourage their members to venture outside on a more regular basis. The ongoing battle versus Renown Decay or the potential to accelerate Guild Renown growth might help open more puging opportunities.

-Mastese

ThePrincipal
04-07-2012, 05:06 PM
easiest way would be to remove dungeon scaling, then you have incentive to roll with a group since the difficultly is static.

azrael4h
04-07-2012, 06:15 PM
I've said this before, and I'll say it again: the developers cannot force pug grouping. Either people will run with guild/channel folks, or they will go to another MMO.

You cannot force Cleric and Favored Soul players to run with you and heal you. Even if the devs made the idiotic choice to remove all offensive divine spells from the game, and made them unable to build for melee ability at all, they wouldn't group. They would either quit or run something else.

You cannot force people to take you into their groups. Whether you are a quality player or not, and whether you have a good build or good gear or not. Even the very best get denied to groups, for whatever reason.

Dungeon scaling, as much as people hate it, has exactly 0 effect on pug grouping. Remove it, and there will still not be pugs forming like you think they will. Instead people will group with guildies and friends, and pugs will still not form. Add incentives to group, whether loot or xp or renown, and there will still not be pugs forming because of it. Instead, people will group with friends and guildies. Or, for a few really hardcore gamers, they'll have multiple computers and run an entire group by themselves.

Even a mentoring won't increase pugging any; that would just likely be used to help introduce friends outside of DDO into the game. Though I think that would be a beneficial addition, both to increase the player base, and in turn Turbine's income off DDO,

So while your intentions are sound, and I agree with the thought that we need the pugging scene to rebuild to where it was when I first started, when you had your choice of Shroud groups at any hour, I don't know how this can be done, other than all people who want to see it happen, start making it happen and making pug groups and accepting the first 5/11 instead of compensating for something lacking.

Marcus-Hawkeye
04-07-2012, 06:52 PM
Your idea would not help as incentive for me to invite others into my group. 2% for a pug that may increase scaling isn't worth it the hassle it could possibly cause.

HungarianRhapsody
04-07-2012, 06:57 PM
A lot of experienced players tend to shun pick-up groups because they risk the 10% bonus for having no one die during a quest.

I suggest that the 10% bonus be replaced by a 2% stacking bonus for each additional real life player in your group. That way, in a full group of 6 players you would still get the 10% even if someone got killed (22 times).

maybe even leave the 10% bonus for not dying available for players that solo or use hirelings.

If you give rewards for a behavior (in this case: not dying), people will adopt that behavior (not taking along people that might dye). if you want to encourage a behavior (bringing along more/new players), the you have to reward that behavior (give an exp bonus for taking additional players).

PUGs make you give up a -10% bonus to XP, but they also give a +60% bonus to amusement when they die in interesting and creative ways.

I'd PUG more if people would just get in the damned quest and get moving already. Seriously, we don't need all 6 slots filled and we don't have to stand around for 30 seconds to pick our noses and scratch our asses at the end of every single fight.

voodoogroves
04-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Seriously, we don't need all 6 slots filled and we don't have to stand around for 30 seconds to pick our noses and scratch our asses at the end of every single fight.

Dude, I WAS JUST ITCHY

Not sure what the method to encourage grouping is - but I'd love to see something that couldn't be abused by dualboxing or parking some pikers.

Phidius
04-07-2012, 08:52 PM
PUGs make you give up a -10% bonus to XP, but they also give a +60% bonus to amusement when they die in interesting and creative ways.
...

How true - I truly enjoy finding that rare gem of a PUGger who will accept Raise Dead over and over and over. :D


...
I'd PUG more if people would just get in the damned quest and get moving already. Seriously, we don't need all 6 slots filled and we don't have to stand around for 30 seconds to pick our noses and scratch our asses at the end of every single fight.

This is one reason why I prefer to start my own groups. I hate waiting, and when folks join my group they know in advance that I won't be.

MsEricka
04-07-2012, 09:46 PM
This encourages dualboxing and multiboxing even more.

I personally have three accounts. I could log in for three others which I have access to. Full XP for everyone and no one will die because they're all sitting at the door.

Gkar
04-07-2012, 10:03 PM
There is only one thing they need to do to fix the grouping issue, eliminate dungeon scaling. Right now its often easier to 1 or 2 man it than run with a full group, so why should you group?

The streak mechanic has also caused a problem but I don't want that xp to go away :p

grandeibra
04-07-2012, 10:21 PM
easiest way would be to remove dungeon scaling, then you have incentive to roll with a group since the difficultly is static.This. Easy solution. People may still prefer friends/guildies BUT if you're only 1-3 people you may then open up for pugs whereas today you'll just run with the 1-3 instead since it's faster and easier

justagame
04-07-2012, 10:57 PM
I don't avoid pugs because of the 10% factor, even if on a TR2+. With all the other bonuses, the 10% ends up being much less than 10% of your actual experience. I've never understood people getting uptight about it.

However, I DO avoid pugs on many occasions because I think it will be a drag on the gaming experience. For example, pug that wants a healer for a quest way, way over their head, but they want the BB / better loot / whatever, at someone else's cost. Pugs that ignore plea after plea for specific more cooperative tactics, but then turn around and blame me when I don't bail them out for the umpteenth time. Players do don't read lfm's at all. Players that join a quest that says "fast run" and complain you aren't going after every optional. Players that join a quest that says in progress, and keep asking for a ship invite and don't even know what quest or where it is.

Or, players that join MY run, and zerg ahead and aggro everything in sight, not caring about the rest of the group's intentions for the run. That punk monk who constantly ran 2-3 rooms ahead of everyone else, stopping only to tell "look at the kill count, look at the kill count." The pugger who picks up items he knows nothing about, then remains silent while the group asks over and over again who has that one item needed to complete the quest.

I actually enjoy playing with new folks who are eager to learn, and listen to others. But I have learned many many times to be on the lookout for groups and players with all the warning signs that the experience will be a bad one.

So 2% here, 10% there, won't make me pug more often. More people reading lfms. More people running quests at a difficulty they can a shot at completing without huge amounts of someone else's resources. More players, even inexperienced ones, who are willing to listen and play will with others. Those things will make me pug more often.

Havok.cry
04-07-2012, 11:29 PM
I dont pug often, because puggers cant read my mind and run the quest the way I want them to. Raids are an exception. When I do pug, 99% of the time it is my LFM, and the quest is already in progress and nothing anyone else does can stop or slow my completion.

HungarianRhapsody
04-08-2012, 12:31 AM
From what the folks in LotRO are saying, it sounds as if Turbine might be moving toward the "require grouping" rather than "encourage grouping".

I'd rather the project managers at Turbine try to figure out why the number of LFMs has gone down over the past few months instead of just trying to ram through random grouping if the descriptions of LotRO game mechanics are accurate.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368465

Havok.cry
04-08-2012, 12:42 AM
From what the folks in LotRO are saying, it sounds as if Turbine might be moving toward the "require grouping" rather than "encourage grouping".

I'd rather the project managers at Turbine try to figure out why the number of LFMs has gone down over the past few months instead of just trying to ram through random grouping if the descriptions of LotRO game mechanics are accurate.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368465

I was just in that thread, to say it has me concered would be an understatement.

MsEricka
04-08-2012, 01:57 AM
From what the folks in LotRO are saying, it sounds as if Turbine might be moving toward the "require grouping" rather than "encourage grouping".

While I haven't seen the thread, I still say dualboxing/multiboxing will resolve the issue for myself and others.

But forced grouping? No thanks. I'll go read that thread now.

dodger72
04-08-2012, 11:16 AM
There are a scant few quests (outside of raids) that actually require a group. One or two each in Necro 1, 2, & 3, Gianthold (Crucible is the only one I believe because of the puzzle) are a few examples.

I've got a couple toons that are TR+2 and yes....I admit I run solo the bulk of the time. Why? not the 10%....that's almost nothing at 4mil + to earn....That's a little bit more time on slayers is all, which means more bonus for me later on rare drops and so on. Long about 17 or 18 I'll start raids, because by then? It's about the last bit of XP to earn. Notsodifficult really.

I do group with guildies on occassion during this time, but that's a mutually beneficial thing.

Encourage grouping? Why?

It may sound elitist...that's fine. Call me an elitist. However, when (as stated previously) the pug-monk or barb in the group zerg ahead, get us a red light and state over and over again LOOK AT THE KILL COUNT!

Yay....sorry to tell you guys...the amount of personal kills means nothing. It doesn't add to your own xp. Hate to tell you....gee....sorry to burst the bubble. It's added up as a GROUP so the bonus applies to ALL for the TOTAL amount of kills. One would think....just maybe....that a group, as it were, that never partied would STICK together. Gods forbid, though.

Instead, you have that. Or the infamous newbie battle cleric (we've all seen them), the 18th level fighter with NO CON score or heavy fort (what's a Mineos Legend? [yes, being snarky, apologies]), and the list goes on.

I've done my time of taking folks under the wing and showing how a quest is run, or requested in groups well ahead of time (or told as the case may be) Stick together or Leave.

Just not worth my time.

Does it take me a little bit longer to level? Sure, no doubt, and I'm ok with that.

I've had the TR where I've gotten into a great group, and we've all leveled together for 3 or 4 levels through VoN, into Shadow Crypts and so on to GH and Orchard. Then I've had those groups (more often than not) that I could not get away from fast enough. I learned this game through watching and listening to others. Through actually reading the wiki and searching through other sites, instead of just tossing a toon together. My usual response in the Marketplace or anywhere else if folks have a question (that seems simple enough, but vague to some) is to find it on the ddo.wiki and put the link up....next statement? "DDO Wiki is your friend....may want to check it out."

I apologize for the length of this, really; however, I fail to see why I should HAVE to be in a group. If I am forced to be in a group because the Dev's go that route...yep...I'm out.

/respectfully not signed. Ever.

Tamerlane
04-08-2012, 12:13 PM
Encourage grouping? Why?



The reason to encourage grouping is that it makes it easier for new players to learn and enjoy the game. This encourages player retention.

as things stand right now, players are rewarded with bonus exp for staying away from new players. As long as those rewards stand old players will continue to shun newer, less skilled players.

I could be completely wrong about turbine's intention, maybe it is more profitable to have people solo somehow, but if they want to encourage grouping they need to stop rewarding people for avoiding other players and reward the behavior they want to encourage.

supot
04-08-2012, 12:49 PM
I solo first before pugging not because of the 10% death chance, but just to be able to relax. No pressure. Avoiding possible stress from irate players.

With the new auto-group mechanic, i don't know how and where it will work. If it's just wilderness areas then that might be good. Team composition doesn't matter, just do your own thing. And you get to meet new/other players in a more casual atmosphere. So, auto-grouping seems ok for me in that regard. There are some new wilderness mechanics after all so Slayers might become a bit more interesting (?). The Dragon in the preview looked like he was in a Wilderness Area too.

Auto-group dungeons? Well honestly when I do Pug Elite, 95% of the time is an easy completion so auto-group would just be like accepting the first 5 members, which a lot of people already do. So doesn't sound that bad..

As a new player, I actually soloed first before ever grouping. Same reason as above and also i didn't want to be a liability. So I'm all for solo play, i'm all for keeping dungeon scaling. On the other hand, they could balance it out a bit to avoid what happens in Weapons shipment.

dodger72
04-08-2012, 12:53 PM
The reason to encourage grouping is that it makes it easier for new players to learn and enjoy the game.

If anything then, instead of encouraging "grouping", encourage "guilding". That way, you move on and through in the game, whether you stay with the original guild or move onto more experienced guilds....or just go solo as choices can be.

Inferus Sus has a training guild (I believe this is mostly for raids, though I could be incorrect) on Thelanis that's steadily gaining speed and has a great rep. Quite a good idea for folks to check into if that's what they are about.

Are some guilds picky? Sure and rightfully so. Some guilds out there will take anyone, while others require applications, sponsorship and have charters that will be abided by or you are out. Sounds more like a guild-group thing than anything else to me. Additionally, we have bonus's based on guild level and what's available to those guilds by their level for buffs and so on.

Pick up groups are just that when your guild isn't running anything. And yes, I do realize that some have single-person guilds. That is their choice. I know a few folks on Thelanis like that and they have the reputation already because of thier experience in the game.


as things stand right now, players are rewarded with bonus exp for staying away from new players. As long as those rewards stand old players will continue to shun newer, less skilled players.

Pick-up-groups can be painful or wonderful...however, I still see no reason why the dev's should put time into something like this when there are other avenues to spend money/time.

New players will still come, old-time players will still stay. More reason than anything else for folks to leave is another game catches thier eye. I knew one individual that only played DDO to pass the time before another game came out. When it hit the streets, he gave away everything that wasn't nailed down and deleted his stable of toons. Haven't heard from him since. Others only play part time. Nature of the MMO and DDO/Turbine knows this, hence the reason (wonderfully so) of Eberron soon to have a portal to the Forgotten Realms. FR is one of the largest PnP games to hit the streets in a long time, and now it's coming to DDO.

Will we see more grouping because of this new content? Sure. No doubt. New content will encourage more grouping until the content is learned, then it will fall by the wayside to the individuals and the guilds. Nature of the beast.


I could be completely wrong about turbine's intention, maybe it is more profitable to have people solo somehow, but if they want to encourage grouping they need to stop rewarding people for avoiding other players and reward the behavior they want to encourage.

Folks shouldn't have to lose out on xp because they choose to solo or only have one or two other folks in group. That's their playstyle. That's their enjoyment in this game. Why take that away?

If individuals or groups or guilds want to take new folks under their wing...have at 'er. By all means, please do so. But don't force the rest of us into changing a playstyle that we enjoy.

Marcus-Hawkeye
04-08-2012, 12:59 PM
Check out the autogrouping thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=368465

Ahnya_DLucien
04-08-2012, 03:01 PM
so, you want to solo or solely group with friends or guildies. no problem, that is your choice.
that essentially means... this suggestion doesn't apply to you, or hurt you in any way.
so why respond to something that doesn't apply to you? ;)

dodger72
04-08-2012, 03:09 PM
so, you want to solo or solely group with friends or guildies. no problem, that is your choice.
that essentially means... this suggestion doesn't apply to you, or hurt you in any way.
so why respond to something that doesn't apply to you? ;)

because...this is an open forum....for everyone :D

dodger72
04-08-2012, 06:59 PM
...and as a side note...if this were implemented, yes...it would affect me.


A lot of experienced players tend to shun pick-up groups because they risk the 10% bonus for having no one die during a quest.

I suggest that the 10% bonus be replaced by a 2% stacking bonus for each additional real life player in your group. That way, in a full group of 6 players you would still get the 10% even if someone got killed (22 times).

maybe even leave the 10% bonus for not dying available for players that solo or use hirelings.

If you give rewards for a behavior (in this case: not dying), people will adopt that behavior (not taking along people that might dye). if you want to encourage a behavior (bringing along more/new players), the you have to reward that behavior (give an exp bonus for taking additional players).


That statement at the start of this thread threatens xp that I earn.

The thread's primary purpose is to encourage grouping (note: with new/newer players) and basing the bonus xp (10%) for grouping up in exchange for no deaths...with the possibility of keeping the current system for the soloist players.

So yes...it does affect me.

Quetzacoala
04-08-2012, 07:17 PM
Seriously, we don't need all 6 slots filled and we don't have to stand around for 30 seconds to pick our noses and scratch our asses at the end of every single fight.

Wait... what?!?

This changes my entire play style... it was my good luck routine...

My playing experience up to now seems like a joke, I have been led to believe that this was good only to discover it was not!

Xynot2
04-09-2012, 06:34 AM
Here it is in a nutshell-

You have hardcore gamers who want to lv their 4th tr this week.

You have new and casual players who just want to play the game.

These 2 groups of people will rarely, if ever, group together. And as the game ages, the second group gets smaller. When DDO started, the first group generally HAD to associate with the second but that's no longer true. Especially with the content getting more difficult by adding epics. The learning curve for the new and casual gamer is going to get steeper. That's the way it goes. No amount of incentive is going to bring these groups together. When you can figure out how to change the attitudes from personal accomplishment to group success in everyone's mind, then you have solved the problem.

Ahnya_DLucien
04-09-2012, 11:49 AM
...and as a side note...if this were implemented, yes...it would affect me.
That statement at the start of this thread threatens xp that I earn.
The thread's primary purpose is to encourage grouping (note: with new/newer players) and basing the bonus xp (10%) for grouping up in exchange for no deaths...with the possibility of keeping the current system for the soloist players.
So yes...it does affect me.



I suggest that the 10% bonus be replaced by a 2% stacking bonus for each additional real life player in your group. That way, in a full group of 6 players you would still get the 10% even if someone got killed (22 times).
maybe even leave the 10% bonus for not dying available for players that solo or use hirelings.
or.. maybe it wouldn't affect you at all.
it would depend on how it was implemented, if you are looking at it like that.

in other news... as someone else posted, these are bonuses, add-ons. in fact, for many years that 10% bonus to exp for lack of deaths didn't exist, and we all managed to level despite it.

Tamerlane
04-09-2012, 01:01 PM
...and as a side note...if this were implemented, yes...it would affect me.




That statement at the start of this thread threatens xp that I earn.

The thread's primary purpose is to encourage grouping (note: with new/newer players) and basing the bonus xp (10%) for grouping up in exchange for no deaths...with the possibility of keeping the current system for the soloist players.

So yes...it does affect me.

Many people have posted here in this thread that a 10% exp bonus is not eough to chage the way they play (but you sure seem worried you might loose it). My point is not that soloing or grouping is preferable. my point has been the system in place right now punishes grouping through exp peanalties and (as pointed out by others) dungeon scaling.

in the current system, there is very little reason to seek out players to group with.

dodger72
04-09-2012, 08:03 PM
nope...not worried about losing said bonus...at all....that's what it is for a solo or group completing a quest sans deaths. But...it is earned and the original intent is to do away with it and substitute a forced grouping to get that bonus.


no


This is my opinion. I don't want to see this change. I do not like the suggestion and am voicing my opinion.

The meat of the thread in the beginning is to do away with a bonus that I am able to get on my own. If I fail soloing a quest...then the onus is on ME...not another in the group. I make my toons to be survivable and self-sufficient...much like many other players. To me...that's the challenge. Do as many as I can...as difficult as I can.

I don't dual box. I don't have the second PC or laptop...nor do I really want one.

The main suggestion is to replace one bonus with another. That's it. the maybe is just that in the start...as an afterthought because the idea behind the thread is to encourage grouping, specifically with new players....the OP has stated that throughout the thread. I do not want to. Many other do not want to.

This isn't a grief...this isn't a troll-by posting. This is my thoughts on this suggestion.

/no

Ungood
04-09-2012, 10:39 PM
Actually, Turbine could easily just do away with the flawless bonus, at this point it is doing more harm then good, and with all the extra exp gained though EXP tomes, Bravery, Streak, and First time Completions, the new levels of exp are ridiculous, that this 10% is little more then a joke.

I mean not that I think getting rid of it will mean anything, I firmly believe that at this point with all the bonus exp we have open to us, people simply use it as an excuse, and will just find some other motive or reason to want to exclude people from their groups, as others have said, you can't force grouping.

HungarianRhapsody
04-09-2012, 10:44 PM
Actually, Turbine could easily just do away with the flawless bonus, at this point it is doing more harm then good, and with all the extra exp gained though EXP tomes, Bravery, Streak, and First time Completions, the new levels of exp are ridiculous, that this 10% is little more then a joke.

I mean not that I think getting rid of it will mean anything, I firmly believe that at this point with all the bonus exp we have open to us, people simply use it as an excuse, and will just find some other motive or reason to want to exclude people from their groups, as others have said, you can't force grouping.

It's not often that I want someone to take away a bonus that I could get, but I agree completely with this post.