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decease
03-29-2012, 10:00 PM
just wondering if its a good idea to give Improved Use Magic Device I enhancement line to bard/rogue.

azrael4h
03-29-2012, 11:10 PM
I was wondering why Artificers get it and those do not myself. Bards at least can be somewhat understandable as they typically will have at least 16 CHA standing, giving them an equivalent UMD, whereas most Rogues and Artificers dump CHA.

At least give it to Rogues.

Rauven
03-29-2012, 11:53 PM
For most rogues (at least once you get a little gear) it's probably not needed at 20 but would be nice to have while leveling to get a little boost or to fill a gap until you get the gear.

Fits with the class, bard too. Should be added.

varusso
03-30-2012, 01:01 AM
I was wondering why Artificers get it and those do not myself.

Because an artificer is a "tinkerer", hence they have more expertise in making devices work. And since CHA does not affect many of their skills (whereas it boosts several rogue and bard skills), it makes sense they should have an enhancement line to make up for what is essentially a dump stat for them otherwise.

Jaid314
03-30-2012, 01:17 AM
artificers are the undisputed masters of UMD. if we were using PnP rules, they'd be allowed to take 10 on UMD checks whenever they feel like it.

in DDO, they instead just get optional enhancements they can choose. frankly, i'd rather have the ability to take 10.

Culver.Civello
03-30-2012, 01:38 AM
Umm... does it matter? XD

I mean, UMD is easily obtainable.
Example:

Level 7 Dwarf- 2Rogue/2Pali/3Ftr
(6 Base Cha)

UMD:
+3 Base 6 Cha
+ 5 UMD ranks
+.5 Pali Cha Enhancement
+.5 +1ChaTome
+2 Rogue Skill Boost
+2 Heroism Pot
+2 Item or Eagles
+3 Bunny Hat
+3 UMD Skill Focus
__
21 Total UMD AT LEVEL 7!!! That is 50:50 on Raise Dead Scroll.
+2 if you have +2 Cha shrine and Philarian buffer on ship

Sure, I have a Pali Cha Enhancement in there with a +1 Tome, but that is also using a dwarf with a base Cha of 6. You wouldn't even need the Pali Enhancement if you have a +2 Tome.. and with tomes know lasting through TR, That really shouldn't be much of a problem at all. Not to mention this is all at only level 7. If you waited, you could get 21 still easily from a better Cha item and better Gear. +6 Cha Skill GS, ect. You might not take UMD Skill focus, but that just depends on how early you want to get to a decent UMD Level. I'd probably switch that out later on. The bunny hat is nice, but you can also find higher competence bonus in game that will cover that. If you want that at lower levels, it is nice. And pretty darn cheap in the DDOStore. I think it was like 200-250tp? Last I checked.

(not absolutely certain how accurate my calculations are above, but still at least mostly accurate.) Point being, it isn't hard to get UMD, and if a Arti were to go through all that and get all those enhancements.. it would just be overkilling it. Sure, it makes it easier for them... but it is already easy enough. Just takes some realization that those numbers can stack up real fast.

Also, as stated above. Arti's are Tinkerers. Rogues are good with traps, but that is mostly 'Mechanical' where as Arti's use magic and technology and tinker it all together. Of course they would be able to use scrolls better in most cases. Would it be nice? SURE! Is it really needed or even an issue? Absolutely not. I'd say keep it as is. Just my perspective on that.

decease
03-30-2012, 03:45 AM
artificers are the undisputed masters of UMD. if we were using PnP rules, they'd be allowed to take 10 on UMD checks whenever they feel like it.

in DDO, they instead just get optional enhancements they can choose. frankly, i'd rather have the ability to take 10.

ture, but they have other bonus to umd beside just simple enhancement line. their capstone is basically allow you to cast any spell in game with 3x~4x dc.. plus their have free feat(Artificer Knowledge) gain on level which enhancement umd..




Umm... does it matter? XD

I mean, UMD is easily obtainable.
Example:

Level 7 Dwarf- 2Rogue/2Pali/3Ftr
(6 Base Cha)

UMD:
+3 Base 6 Cha
+ 5 UMD ranks
+.5 Pali Cha Enhancement
+.5 +1ChaTome
+2 Rogue Skill Boost
+2 Heroism Pot
+2 Item or Eagles
+3 Bunny Hat
+3 UMD Skill Focus
__
21 Total UMD AT LEVEL 7!!! That is 50:50 on Raise Dead Scroll.
+2 if you have +2 Cha shrine and Philarian buffer on ship

Sure, I have a Pali Cha Enhancement in there with a +1 Tome, but that is also using a dwarf with a base Cha of 6. You wouldn't even need the Pali Enhancement if you have a +2 Tome.. and with tomes know lasting through TR, That really shouldn't be much of a problem at all. Not to mention this is all at only level 7. If you waited, you could get 21 still easily from a better Cha item and better Gear. +6 Cha Skill GS, ect. You might not take UMD Skill focus, but that just depends on how early you want to get to a decent UMD Level. I'd probably switch that out later on. The bunny hat is nice, but you can also find higher competence bonus in game that will cover that. If you want that at lower levels, it is nice. And pretty darn cheap in the DDOStore. I think it was like 200-250tp? Last I checked.

(not absolutely certain how accurate my calculations are above, but still at least mostly accurate.) Point being, it isn't hard to get UMD, and if a Arti were to go through all that and get all those enhancements.. it would just be overkilling it. Sure, it makes it easier for them... but it is already easy enough. Just takes some realization that those numbers can stack up real fast.

Also, as stated above. Arti's are Tinkerers. Rogues are good with traps, but that is mostly 'Mechanical' where as Arti's use magic and technology and tinker it all together. Of course they would be able to use scrolls better in most cases. Would it be nice? SURE! Is it really needed or even an issue? Absolutely not. I'd say keep it as is. Just my perspective on that.

if all you want is this simple, then there be nothing more to say. though i got to say, not everyone want to bother with switching gear every time they used a scroll/wand.

also

1) not everyone have bunny hat..
2) skill boost run out, and have limited charge. plus you will want to use them when you disable/searching
3)UMD Skill Focus is a feat.. am sure not many people willing to spend a feat on this.. (you want to spend 1 feat or 3 ap?)
4) if you have 6 base cha you will get -2 to umd level not +3
5) you won't have the time to switching gear to umd heal scroll to save your life.
6) same as above, you drink 2 potion before you umd it.. kinda lame..(sorry)

plus it make sense to give it to bard/rogue..

p.s. by your theory 100% of the enhancement that boost skill level are totally useless in this game. because there are always way around them

Gizeh
03-30-2012, 04:24 AM
UMD:
+3 Base 6 Cha
+ 5 UMD ranks
+.5 Pali Cha Enhancement
+.5 +1ChaTome
+2 Rogue Skill Boost
+2 Heroism Pot
+2 Item or Eagles
+3 Bunny Hat
+3 UMD Skill Focus
__
21 Total UMD AT LEVEL 7!!! That is 50:50 on Raise Dead Scroll.
+2 if you have +2 Cha shrine and Philarian buffer on ship



6 CHA gives you a -2 modifier, not +3. That means your character's UMD would be 16, not 21 - and that includes a 20 second buff that you can use 5 times per rest iirc.

Most bard/rogue players aim for a standing UMD of 39, which is required for no fail heal scroll usage.

It is achievable at level 20 even without UMD skill enhancements, but it requires some work:

23.....23 ranks
+3....16 cha (8 base, +6 item, +2 tome)
+3....skill focus: UMD
+3....enhancement bonus from tier 3 epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
+3....competence bonus from an item like Bunny Hat, Golden Cartouche or an item of persuasion*
+2....good luck bonus, for example from the tier 3 epic Ring of the Buccaneer
+4....Greater Heroism scroll

41 UMD

*I don't recommend the Bunny Hat - I tried it, and the moment of lag every time your UMD score changes (equip a scroll in the case of the hat) is very annoying, especially in combat, and even the fact that the Bunny Hat doesn't use an equipment slot doesn't make up for that imho. Items of persuasion can be crafted (level 23 arcane recipe) and applied to hat, goggles, ring or trinket.

With rogue Skill Mastery (+1 to all skills) or the bard's charisma which will almost certainly be higher than 8 you can reach a score of 39 even if you don't take SF: UMD or don't equip one of the skill bonus items.

All that being said, however, I agree that it would be nice if all classes who have UMD as class skill would also get access to the UMD skill enhancement line.

decease
03-30-2012, 04:49 AM
6 CHA gives you a -2 modifier, not +3. That means your character's UMD would be 16, not 21 - and that includes a 20 second buff that you can use 5 times per rest iirc.

Most bard/rogue players aim for a standing UMD of 39, which is required for no fail heal scroll usage.

It is achievable at level 20 even without UMD skill enhancements, but it requires some work:

23.....23 ranks
+3....16 cha (8 base, +6 item, +2 tome)
+3....skill focus: UMD
+3....enhancement bonus from tier 3 epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
+3....competence bonus from an item like Bunny Hat, Golden Cartouche or an item of persuasion*
+2....good luck bonus, for example from the tier 3 epic Ring of the Buccaneer
+4....Greater Heroism scroll

41 UMD

*I don't recommend the Bunny Hat - I tried it, and the moment of lag every time your UMD score changes (equip a scroll in the case of the hat) is very annoying, especially in combat, and even the fact that the Bunny Hat doesn't use an equipment slot doesn't make up for that imho. Items of persuasion can be crafted (level 23 arcane recipe) and applied to hat, goggles, ring or trinket.

With rogue Skill Mastery (+1 to all skills) or the bard's charisma which will almost certainly be higher than 8 you can reach a score of 39 even if you don't take SF: UMD or don't equip one of the skill bonus items.

All that being said, however, I agree that it would be nice if all classes who have UMD as class skill would also get access to the UMD skill enhancement line.

i know how to stack up umd.. in fact if need i could reach much higher umd value. the thing is the level you get them is way too late to make it much of use. plus it take too long to farm these item. also likely these umd gear will not be your raid gear.. so likely you will have to change equipment to umd stuff..

for my umd toon.. the rogue is currently lvl 11
i have:
1 from 12 base cha
14 skill rank
3 from +6 cha item (Katra's Razor Wit)
1 from voice of master
1 from pre order mask
3 from Golden Cartouche
1 from big top
2 from heroism clickie
-------------------------------------
26

i could add some more
4 human boost
2 bard song Inspire Competence
2 monk move Walk of the Sun
5 monk move Moment of Clarity
3 Potion of Eagle's Skill
1 Lasting Eagle's Majesty
1 Essence of Seduction
--------------------------------
18

26+18 = 44

not to mention when am higher level i could replace these gear..
2 more from epic big top
2 from +4 tome
1 from guild buff
2 more from Seven Fingered Gloves(replace Golden Cartouche )
1 more from Staff of Arcane Power (replace voice of master)
2 from exceptional cha + Litany of the Dead
6 from exceptional cha skill(green steel or dragon touch)
1 from Bardic Dilettante
1 from Sneak of Shadows
4 from Rogue Skill Mastery
9 from skill rank(after level up)
2 from gh(replace heroism)
--------------------------------
33

44+33 = 77

yea.. rank 77.. might be able to reach even higher..but whats the use? if you build your toon like this you will not be able to do anything.. lol and it take some luck to get all these function at the same time..

Ravoc-DDO
03-30-2012, 03:44 PM
Bards should get it too. Not rogues though, their primary expertise is elsewhere.

Culver.Civello
03-30-2012, 08:31 PM
Oh, I'm not saying that EVERYONE should get Bunny hat. Golden Cartouche is also a valuable item that provides the same competence bonus. XD Also, I've never had a problem of running out of skill boost and I UMD and Trap all the time. xD Also, I don't see switching out gear a hassle at all. If you find a more permanent spot for it, then that is great. UMD Focus feat, that I will agree with. Not everyone wants to waste the feat to get it. Like I said, if I get it... it is usually for low levels then I switch it out later on. But still... not really my point. And you go on talking about heal scrolls. I'm not even talking heal scrolls. XD

My point is that UMD is easy enough to get. Those are just 'theoretically' at ONLY level 7. Most people don't really use that many scrolls at low levels, unless you are casting a raise dead and just happen to be able to get the UMD score high enough to do so. Generally you see it more often around level 12 for most people. They tend to get enough to cast 50% raise dead scrolls at that point. My point, getting UMD is really easy enough if you take the advantage to do it. There is not much need to get the UMD focus line. Is it nice to have? Yea. Is it really necessary? Now I'm just repeating myself.

Also, thanks Gizeh. I knew I messed something up there. Couldn't figure it out. XD But yea... still. Point stands.

decease
03-30-2012, 09:04 PM
Oh, I'm not saying that EVERYONE should get Bunny hat. Golden Cartouche is also a valuable item that provides the same competence bonus. XD Also, I've never had a problem of running out of skill boost and I UMD and Trap all the time. xD Also, I don't see switching out gear a hassle at all. If you find a more permanent spot for it, then that is great. UMD Focus feat, that I will agree with. Not everyone wants to waste the feat to get it. Like I said, if I get it... it is usually for low levels then I switch it out later on. But still... not really my point. And you go on talking about heal scrolls. I'm not even talking heal scrolls. XD

My point is that UMD is easy enough to get. Those are just 'theoretically' at ONLY level 7. Most people don't really use that many scrolls at low levels, unless you are casting a raise dead and just happen to be able to get the UMD score high enough to do so. Generally you see it more often around level 12 for most people. They tend to get enough to cast 50% raise dead scrolls at that point. My point, getting UMD is really easy enough if you take the advantage to do it. There is not much need to get the UMD focus line. Is it nice to have? Yea. Is it really necessary? Now I'm just repeating myself.

Also, thanks Gizeh. I knew I messed something up there. Couldn't figure it out. XD But yea... still. Point stands.

Bunny hat and Golden Cartouche don't stack i believe. not sure never checked, but by wiki they are same type of bonus.

it is necessary, if you want some meaningful heal in combat, or heal other in combat. plus if artifier get it, so should rogue/bard.

p.s. what can you get from 20 umd? cure minor wand, heal 6~9 every 2~3 second.. lets see your lvl 12 toon heal the team with 6~9 every three second to keep up the raid XD

Culver.Civello
03-30-2012, 09:23 PM
Are you actually reading?

I SAID they don't stack. Golden Cartouche is just another option if you don't want to go bunny hat route.

Also, I'm am referring to a 'LEVEL SEVEN aka 7 aka VII' Character. That much UMD at level 7 is quite a bit. At higher levels, you'll have even more. Enough for your heal scrolls.

And as stated before, Artis get it because they are 'tinkerers'. Do they really need it though? Nope.

Point made.

/done

decease
03-30-2012, 09:54 PM
Are you actually reading?

I SAID they don't stack. Golden Cartouche is just another option if you don't want to go bunny hat route.

Also, I'm am referring to a 'LEVEL SEVEN aka 7 aka VII' Character. That much UMD at level 7 is quite a bit. At higher levels, you'll have even more. Enough for your heal scrolls.

And as stated before, Artis get it because they are 'tinkerers'. Do they really need it though? Nope.

Point made.

/done

level 7 15 umd as a bard/rogue? not impressing.. sorry i don't see your point made.. at end game i doubt much people without self healing ability could solo epic, therefor people will likely be in team near 100% of the times.. which make umd heal scroll not that important. plus heal scroll won't heal much when everyone in team have 600+ health..

artis get "Artificer Knowledge", which another source of boost umd, and is far more then enough to make them a "tinkerers class". plus by your theory umd enhancement are pointless and over kill, then why bother refusing rogue/bard getting this enhancement? it seem you are trying to denied your own statement, sorry am a bit confused.

p.s. if your point are made, and your statement been correct. then by your theory anyone who ever waste as feat on skill focus umd is noob who have no knowledge of game at all.

HatsuharuZ
03-30-2012, 10:31 PM
It doesn't matter if you think a rogue/bard needs it or not. UMD is a class skill for both of them, so why shouldn't they have it? Sorcerers get bluff enhancements, and barbarians get swim enhancements. Do they use them often? Maybe, maybe not. But they have them, and there is a concieveable use for them.

Gorbadoc
03-31-2012, 12:51 AM
just wondering if its a good idea to give Improved Use Magic Device I enhancement line to bard/rogue.Bards, yes. Rogues, maybe.

Since 3rd edition, Charisma has been the stat for brilliant intuitive abilities. The most combat-relevant example of this is sorcerers: they are the intuitive arcane casters (as opposed to wizards who actually have to study and understand), and their intuitive casting is driven by charisma.

A bard's magical powers are apparently driven by this same kind of intuition. Bardic magic use is via bard spells (charisma-based) and UMD (also charisma-based).

Ultimately, all these rules are made-up. Still, in the context of these made-up rules, we can at least tell a story where bards are the masters of making a magic device work despite not actually *knowing* how to make it work. This throws jaid's claim into doubt:


artificers are the undisputed masters of UMD. if we were using PnP rules, they'd be allowed to take 10 on UMD checks whenever they feel like it.

in DDO, they instead just get optional enhancements they can choose. frankly, i'd rather have the ability to take 10.

Artificers study the workings of magic devices, but bards are still the masters of intuitively making a device work despite not understanding it. Maybe the artificer enhancement line comes from *knowing* how magic devices work. But, hey, we can at least argue that bards should get a similar enhancement line to improve their existing *intuitive* power. I say there's nothing wrong with giving UMD enhancements to bards.

Rogues are a bit hairy-- they're not as good as bards at intuition, but first, second, and third edition rules suggest that they are a class that's good at intuition. I can see there being a plausible argument for why rogues might also have some UMD enhancements available to them.

Jaid314
03-31-2012, 01:04 AM
Artificers study the workings of magic devices, but bards are still the masters of intuitively making a device work despite not understanding it. Maybe the artificer enhancement line comes from *knowing* how magic devices work. But, hey, we can at least argue that bards should get a similar enhancement line to improve their existing *intuitive* power. I say there's nothing wrong with giving UMD enhancements to bards.

Rogues are a bit hairy-- they're not as good as bards at intuition, but first, second, and third edition rules suggest that they are a class that's good at intuition. I can see there being a plausible argument for why rogues might also have some UMD enhancements available to them.

i don't think you get it. they key, central ability of PnP artificers is supposed to be UMD. they use it to craft. they use it to activate a number of their abilities, most of which revolve around using UMD to activate various magical items. and again, in PnP, they can "take 10".

in other words, whenever they want, they can just decide that today, they are rolling 10 on that d20 check to use the skill. in DDO, they don't get that ability (which would frankly be much better than spending 4 AP to get +4 to the skill). that is why artificers get improved UMD. and that is why bards don't get it. because, contrary to what you may think, bards are *not* the masters of UMD. they happen to be be pretty good at it, as a jack of all trades, and because they frequently have a high related attribute, but they are not the masters. they don't do anything with UMD that anyone else couldn't do with it. they don't gain any utility that nobody else is able to get. they just tend to have a higher score in it than many others.

an artificer should be able to burn an extra charge or three from a wand of phantasmal killer to make it cast as a heightened spell. they should be able to use a scroll of fireball and make it cast a maximised empowered fireball. they should be able to use UMD to satisfy the spellcasting (or other) requirements of crafting an item, again something which (almost) no other class in 3.5 can do.

decease
03-31-2012, 01:56 AM
i don't think you get it. they key, central ability of PnP artificers is supposed to be UMD. they use it to craft. they use it to activate a number of their abilities, most of which revolve around using UMD to activate various magical items. and again, in PnP, they can "take 10".

in other words, whenever they want, they can just decide that today, they are rolling 10 on that d20 check to use the skill. in DDO, they don't get that ability (which would frankly be much better than spending 4 AP to get +4 to the skill). that is why artificers get improved UMD. and that is why bards don't get it. because, contrary to what you may think, bards are *not* the masters of UMD. they happen to be be pretty good at it, as a jack of all trades, and because they frequently have a high related attribute, but they are not the masters. they don't do anything with UMD that anyone else couldn't do with it. they don't gain any utility that nobody else is able to get. they just tend to have a higher score in it than many others.

an artificer should be able to burn an extra charge or three from a wand of phantasmal killer to make it cast as a heightened spell. they should be able to use a scroll of fireball and make it cast a maximised empowered fireball. they should be able to use UMD to satisfy the spellcasting (or other) requirements of crafting an item, again something which (almost) no other class in 3.5 can do.

you forget one thing "they should be a prestige class"

Jaid314
03-31-2012, 02:17 AM
you forget one thing "they should be a prestige class"

no, i didn't forget that at all. they aren't a prestige class. they never were a prestige class. they're a base class. they have been since day 1 when they first appeared in the eberron core book. they should continue to be a base class in DDO, because DDO is based entirely on pen and paper 3.5 D&D.

decease
03-31-2012, 02:46 AM
no, i didn't forget that at all. they aren't a prestige class. they never were a prestige class. they're a base class. they have been since day 1 when they first appeared in the eberron core book. they should continue to be a base class in DDO, because DDO is based entirely on pen and paper 3.5 D&D.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artificer this is 3.5 no?

Jaid314
03-31-2012, 03:02 AM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Artificer this is 3.5 no?

here's the path for that particular page: "Back to Main Page → 3.5e Homebrew → Classes → Prestige Classes"

i could spend the next 5 minutes inventing a (probably terrible) class/prestige class/magic item/spell/whatever and post it there with the same name as something that WotC came up with. but just because i decide to make a magic weapon called a vorpal sword that has the magical property of making a "vorp" sound when you swing it through the air that scares away all forms of insects, doesn't mean that DDO should be expected to change vorpal swords to match my homebrew.

decease
03-31-2012, 03:26 AM
here's the path for that particular page: "Back to Main Page → 3.5e Homebrew → Classes → Prestige Classes"

i could spend the next 5 minutes inventing a (probably terrible) class/prestige class/magic item/spell/whatever and post it there with the same name as something that WotC came up with. but just because i decide to make a magic weapon called a vorpal sword that has the magical property of making a "vorp" sound when you swing it through the air that scares away all forms of insects, doesn't mean that DDO should be expected to change vorpal swords to match my homebrew.

Homebrew is the only place i can find detail information on this class. if you have better detail information link it to see.

ok, check the hand book. by the hand book

1) artificer can't cast any spell without scroll or wand. and they cannot learn new spell from scroll
2) if they want Homunculi, they will have to learn and craft them on their own. their Homunculi do not level up with them without further improvement.
3) you can craft anything, but it will take you ages to craft them.

if you really want this so badly, then be my guest. you could spend several week craft a wand that you will be using once or twice..

p.s. by the rule every class can have Homunculi, so if you want to do it this way the only ability artificer have left is to meta their wand. oh and the ability to wear four ring.

Gorbadoc
03-31-2012, 09:00 AM
i don't think you get it. they key, central ability of PnP artificers is supposed to be UMD. they use it to craft.

I do get it, and I'm offering a disagreeing opinion. When someone expresses an opinion that disagrees with yours, you have two options:
Assume there's merit to the disagreeing opinion. Try to understand the disagreeing opinion by finding that merit, or at least by understanding why the other person holds that opinion.
Dismiss the other person as not "getting it".
When you go with the second option, you save time, but you also miss opportunities to expand your understanding.

Judging from your borderline-trollish number of posts in this thread, you appear proud of you opinions, and that's okay. It's not worth debating this matter--or any matter--with you, though, since we'll just reach this same impasse over and over. I understand where your opinion is coming from; you are not interested in where my opinion is coming from; the discussion serves no further purpose.