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DeathsApprentice
03-24-2012, 09:11 AM
Now that I'm very close to capping my cleric, I've noticed that if I want the highest possible DC, then I have to multiclass into a monk. Seriously? My cleric becomes better at casting spells by splashing into a melee class?


My suggestion is rather simple: Add +2 wisdom to the cleric capstone. (I'm sure it's been said before, but no harm in repeating it while you are in the process of redoing the enchantment process)


Another suggestion would be to add the Force enchantment line to Divine casters. Artificers, a second-rate caster class, not only get our 1 decent AoE spell, but they are also better at it. This just doesn't feel right.


A third suggestion is a repeat of this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=355829 We need more wisdom +7 items in the game.


A fourth suggestion is about superior potency VI: either let us craft it, or make it more common on a variety of gear.
It's supposed to be available on rings and headgear, but I have yet to see an sup pot 6 ring or hat (Excluding Crystal cove). I know about the Amrath necklaces, but I intend to slot a torc (soon, my precious, soon) one day.


As I already said, these suggestion have probably already been made. I checked the suggestions board and didn't find any in the last month, except the one I linked too. But repetition can't hurt.

HastyPudding
03-24-2012, 09:43 AM
1st suggestion
Agreed. 100%. Wizards, FVS, fighters, barbarians, monks, and bards all get +2 to their primary stat, there's reason clerics shouldn't get +2 wisdom.

2nd suggestion
Clerics and FVS are not your typical battlecaster divine classes. That role belongs to the druid.

3rd suggestion
Agreed. Wisdom items are in shortage, when clerics, FVS, monks, rangers, and paladins can all benefit from it.

4th suggestion
I think the reason it's hard to find is that it's a very strong potency, and it is where you begin to get your end-game cure and heal spells. The same goes for spell pen VIII/IX and other potency effects. They're meant to be rare because they're strong.

justagame
03-24-2012, 09:48 AM
1st suggestion
Agreed. 100%. Wizards, FVS, fighters, barbarians, monks, and bards all get +2 to their primary stat, there's reason clerics shouldn't get +2 wisdom.

2nd suggestion
Clerics and FVS are not your typical battlecaster divine classes. That role belongs to the druid.

3rd suggestion
Agreed. Wisdom items are in shortage, when clerics, FVS, monks, rangers, and paladins can all benefit from it.

4th suggestion
I think the reason it's hard to find is that it's a very strong potency, and it is where you begin to get your end-game cure and heal spells. The same goes for spell pen VIII/IX and other potency effects. They're meant to be rare because they're strong.

Agreed on 1, 3, and 4, but 2 is just flat-out wrong. (Not that I am saying a force line needs to be added, just disagreeing with the rationale you presented about perceived roles.)

DeathsApprentice
03-24-2012, 10:12 AM
Agreed on 1, 3, and 4, but 2 is just flat-out wrong. (Not that I am saying a force line needs to be added, just disagreeing with the rationale you presented about perceived roles.)

I can see where he is coming from. If you look at the divine spell list, a lot of spells are weaker or higher level than their arcane counterparts. I can live with that. I get to heal, arcanes don't. But I feel that I should get the same opportunities to boost my spells (+% damage, + DC) as an arcane, should I choose to do so.

And about battle casters and the Force-line: An artificer, who only has up to lvl 6 spells, can't possibly be more qualified to be a battle caster than a cleric. An artificer is more of a jack-of-all-trades class and as such shouldn't be better at casting than a full caster, such as a cleric. (not that I'm asking to nerf Artificers)

Alternative
03-24-2012, 10:41 AM
Wizards, FVS, fighters, barbarians, monks, and bards all get +2 to their primary stat, there's reason clerics shouldn't get +2 wisdom.

FVS only get +2 cha from their capstone, and saying that cha is fvs primary stat is like saying healbotting is fvs primary job.

Now if a fvs wants to splash 2 monk for more wisdom they only get one lvl9 spell. Also clerics can get 3 wisdom from enhancements while fvs gets only 2. Clerics don't have it as bad as you think OP, what they need is a casting focused PrE (yes, and domains but that's probably not happening in ddo)

Matuse
03-24-2012, 10:44 AM
Agreed. 100%. Wizards, FVS, fighters, barbarians, monks, and bards all get +2 to their primary stat, there's reason clerics shouldn't get +2 wisdom.

FvS do -not- get +2 to their primary stat.

Phidius
03-24-2012, 10:47 AM
I think the biggest problem with clerics is that the spells they choose from suck bantha fodder. The perk of being able to choose the correct spells for the specific quest is voided by the fact that you've already chosen all the spells you would care to place on a hotbar.

The next biggest problem with clerics is that you are competing with wizards for DC. And they have PrEs specifically built to boost DCs to a level that clerics can't match. It would be fine if Turbine designed the saves and spell resistance with a first life non-PrE wizard in mind, but they don't - they presume every wizard is pure, went PM, has 3 Wizard PL and 3 FvS PL.

These reasons are why my clerics dump wisdom and go the melee route - at least I can hit the mobs.

Standal
03-24-2012, 11:05 AM
If you think clerics need love, talk to a ranger.

Given that the demand for clerics in parties exceeds the supply, and that the reason demand exceeds the supply is that clerics are soloing quests because they don't need a party, I don't see the problem with the cleric class. It has viable melee, offensive casting, and healing options.

DeathsApprentice
03-24-2012, 12:23 PM
FVS only get +2 cha from their capstone, and saying that cha is fvs primary stat is like saying healbotting is fvs primary job.

Now if a fvs wants to splash 2 monk for more wisdom they only get one lvl9 spell. Also clerics can get 3 wisdom from enhancements while fvs gets only 2. Clerics don't have it as bad as you think OP, what they need is a casting focused PrE (yes, and domains but that's probably not happening in ddo)

I think you get the +2 wisdom at the first level of monk. So you can have 2 lvl 9 spells. And I personally fell that the FvS capstone is more than powerful enough. Dr and a free spell? I'd take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

azrael4h
03-24-2012, 12:34 PM
If you think clerics need love, talk to a ranger.

Given that the demand for clerics in parties exceeds the supply, and that the reason demand exceeds the supply is that clerics are soloing quests because they don't need a party, I don't see the problem with the cleric class. It has viable melee, offensive casting, and healing options.

The reason demand exceeds the supply is that every cleric and favored soul player has horror stories of abuse from incompetent players who think that clerics are nothing but nannies who should change the melee players' diapers every 10 seconds. They either quit playing entirely, or quit pugging. Thus there's only a minority who will put up with the people who complain about not being able to fill 5 slots with clerics so they can survive korthos on casual at level 20.

Habreno
03-24-2012, 12:44 PM
Now that I'm very close to capping my cleric, I've noticed that if I want the highest possible DC, then I have to multiclass into a monk. Seriously? My cleric becomes better at casting spells by splashing into a melee class?


My suggestion is rather simple: Add +2 wisdom to the cleric capstone. (I'm sure it's been said before, but no harm in repeating it while you are in the process of redoing the enchantment process)

This 100% needs to be done.


Another suggestion would be to add the Force enchantment line to Divine casters. Artificers, a second-rate caster class, not only get our 1 decent AoE spell, but they are also better at it. This just doesn't feel right.

I disagree for one reason. The Arties get 3 lower DC on BB.


A third suggestion is a repeat of this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=355829 We need more wisdom +7 items in the game.

Yes. Especially when that one piece requires an EPIC RAID to make.


A fourth suggestion is about superior potency VI: either let us craft it, or make it more common on a variety of gear.
It's supposed to be available on rings and headgear, but I have yet to see an sup pot 6 ring or hat (Excluding Crystal cove). I know about the Amrath necklaces, but I intend to slot a torc (soon, my precious, soon) one day.

Disagree. Superior Potency VII should be close to nonexistent (and it is) while Superior Potency VI should be fairly rare (and it's not) since they are both extremely powerful effects.

Sup Potency VI Locations (Lootgen): Weapons, Shields, Rings, Hats (from DDOWiki)


As I already said, these suggestion have probably already been made. I checked the suggestions board and didn't find any in the last month, except the one I linked too. But repetition can't hurt.

There are also many items out there with Superior Potency VI, they are named for a reason. The effect is rare.

DeathsApprentice
03-24-2012, 01:09 PM
About the artificer's Blade Barriers:

-3 dc with a +50% damage is a lot better than a cleric's Blade Barrier.

Lalangamena
03-25-2012, 01:43 AM
Now that I'm very close to capping my cleric, I've noticed that if I want the highest possible DC, then I have to multiclass into a monk. Seriously? My cleric becomes better at casting spells by splashing into a melee class?


My suggestion is rather simple: Add +2 wisdom to the cleric capstone. (I'm sure it's been said before, but no harm in repeating it while you are in the process of redoing the enchantment process)


Another suggestion would be to add the Force enchantment line to Divine casters. Artificers, a second-rate caster class, not only get our 1 decent AoE spell, but they are also better at it. This just doesn't feel right.


A third suggestion is a repeat of this one: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=355829 We need more wisdom +7 items in the game.


A fourth suggestion is about superior potency VI: either let us craft it, or make it more common on a variety of gear.
It's supposed to be available on rings and headgear, but I have yet to see an sup pot 6 ring or hat (Excluding Crystal cove). I know about the Amrath necklaces, but I intend to slot a torc (soon, my precious, soon) one day.


As I already said, these suggestion have probably already been made. I checked the suggestions board and didn't find any in the last month, except the one I linked too. But repetition can't hurt.

1) yes, it should be this way, current capstone is upgraded spell "death pact", we don't need two of these

2)no, this will make clerics OP, people will stop running all other toons, the DDO population will split to failmasters and clerics with maxed force line.

3) +7 stat items should not be in game at all (IMHO, they are so wrong on DnD rules...)

4) yes, not only it should be possible to craft potency, but also crit items, arcane lore and light lore, where are they?

decease
03-25-2012, 02:42 AM
what we need is domain!! i mean DOMAIN XD

voodoogroves
03-25-2012, 06:37 AM
The cleric capstone can trivialize some encounters; it's very strong. It isn't incredibly strong for someone who wants to be a DC caster.

I think Clerics, FVS and Sorcs don't seem to be having any problems right now. That same cleric can splash 2 levels and have the same number of 9th spells as a FVS20 and the same spell penetration (this being the monk1/wizard1 splash).

Let me kinda state what you said the other way around ... of the massive AOE destroy-the-world-capable classes, only Wizards get a +2 INT at cap. Generally the +2 primary attribute bonus goes to the classes who will ab/use it to the least impact on the game as a whole.

You shouldn't be competing directly with the wizard. That's their thing. You get the same feats as a sorc, should you be competing with them for damage output?



What clerics need are PREs. AOV provides (essentially) the boost for a casting FVS that mimics the higher attribute. I'd hope Exorcist does similar - though maybe more on the CL / spelll pen than DCs.

DeathsApprentice
03-25-2012, 08:00 AM
I think Clerics, FVS and Sorcs don't seem to be having any problems right now. That same cleric can splash 2 levels and have the same number of 9th spells as a FVS20 and the same spell penetration (this being the monk1/wizard1 splash).
The fact that you become a better caster by splashing classes that have nothing to do with your spellcasting, seems alright with you?



Let me kinda state what you said the other way around ... of the massive AOE destroy-the-world-capable classes, only Wizards get a +2 INT at cap. Generally the +2 primary attribute bonus goes to the classes who will ab/use it to the least impact on the game as a whole.
I'd say the +2 intelligence on a wizard has a bigger impact on the game than a +2 wisdom on a cleric would. Especially in endgame where every point of DC matters.



You shouldn't be competing directly with the wizard. That's their thing. You get the same feats as a sorc, should you be competing with them for damage output?

Except we are competing with wizards. Turbine balances the saves of mobs based on what the players do. So that +1 dc for wizards makes my cleric weaker, in a relative sense.
Like I already said, the divine spell list is generally weaker at damaging, cc'ing and instakilling than the arcane spell list. I can totally live with that. But I should have the same opportunity to land my weaker spells as an arcane. I want either weaker spells with the same DC or equal spells with a lesser DC, but not both.



What clerics need are PREs.
True

Matuse
03-25-2012, 03:02 PM
The fact that you become a better caster by splashing classes that have nothing to do with your spellcasting, seems alright with you?

There are 4 elements to spellcasting.

1) Spell DC
2) Number of known spells
3) Spell Penetration
4) Spell points

Splashing monk hurts 3 of those elements, and very VERY mildly increases one of them.

You are making yourself a worse caster by splashing monk. The decision is whether or not you value the 2 combat feats, the evasion, and the wis mod to AC or not.

Aeolwind
03-25-2012, 04:21 PM
There are 4 elements to spellcasting.

1) Spell DC
2) Number of known spells
3) Spell Penetration
4) Spell points

Splashing monk hurts 3 of those elements, and very VERY mildly increases one of them.

You are making yourself a worse caster by splashing monk. The decision is whether or not you value the 2 combat feats, the evasion, and the wis mod to AC or not.

1) DC goes uup
2) About equal to a FvS
3) Can't argue here
4) Fairly irrelevant as the wis increase will offset some of it.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but in the game where every single solitary point of DC must be wrenched out, that 1 point can be a significant increase.

I failed 5 GH scrolls the other day out of 8 casts with a 95% listed on the UMD check. I seem to fail more heal scrolls than cast with the same 95% chance. Consequently, I was just too lazy to swap one more piece of gear to make them no fail. Factually, you are correct anecdotally & in personal practice I have to disagree with you about the benefit of that 1 point. The dice gods here are tainted.

bloodnose13
03-25-2012, 05:03 PM
spell point use discount enchancement line, to lower the gap in spellpoints between cleric and favored soul, sp is usual answer why some ppl abandon clerics on tr in favor of fvs, bursts and aura are great on cleric but dont work that good in raids, or high lvl content, there its visible how much faster clerics are drained off sp.

voodoogroves
03-25-2012, 05:08 PM
There are 4 elements to spellcasting.

1) Spell DC
2) Number of known spells
3) Spell Penetration
4) Spell points

Splashing monk hurts 3 of those elements, and very VERY mildly increases one of them.

You are making yourself a worse caster by splashing monk. The decision is whether or not you value the 2 combat feats, the evasion, and the wis mod to AC or not.

Exactly. A more casting-focused PRE would help that, but I don't think Clerics need a WIS capstone.

And yes, I do think Clerics should be worse "caster" types than wizards. Absolutely. Not by a ton, but I'm ok with their current gap. Clerics and FVS aren't suffering by any stretch.

Matuse
03-25-2012, 06:12 PM
1) DC goes uup

Yes...


2) About equal to a FvS

Which can be a bit of a drawback when you want that 4th 8th level spell.


3) Can't argue here

DC doesn't matter if you can't break their SR.


4) Fairly irrelevant as the wis increase will offset some of it.

This is just looney. A Cleric going from 18-20 gets 195 SP. +2 Wis at level 18 (not 20, you have 2 levels of monk) gives 27 SP. That's a major drop-off.


Normally, I'd agree with you, but in the game where every single solitary point of DC must be wrenched out, that 1 point can be a significant increase.

And that same single solitary point is needed in your SR, where you're losing 2 points.

DeathsApprentice
03-26-2012, 10:16 AM
There are 4 elements to spellcasting.

1) Spell DC
2) Number of known spells
3) Spell Penetration
4) Spell points

Splashing monk hurts 3 of those elements, and very VERY mildly increases one of them.

You are making yourself a worse caster by splashing monk. The decision is whether or not you value the 2 combat feats, the evasion, and the wis mod to AC or not.




1) Yes...

2) Which can be a bit of a drawback when you want that 4th 8th level spell.

3) DC doesn't matter if you can't break their SR.

4) This is just looney. A Cleric going from 18-20 gets 195 SP. +2 Wis at level 18 (not 20, you have 2 levels of monk) gives 27 SP. That's a major drop-off.

And that same single solitary point is needed in your SR, where you're losing 2 points.


Actually, you are highlighting the drawback a bit too much.

1) The DC goes up. This is a good thing.

2) You lose 1 lvl 8 spell and 1 lvl 9 spell. And since I already have all the spells I want, I don't find this to be very restrictive. You don't need 2 levels in monk for the stance, just 1.

3) This is where you are potentially wrong. A lot of clerics (including mine) take Toughness. Toughness is a monk bonus feat. By rearranging where I place my feats, I can take Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration. Giving me a net gain of 1 caster level to beat SR.

4) Splashing 1 level of monk costs me 100sp. With a torc/conc-opp the 100sp is peanuts. I could even take Mental toughness as an extra feat (see 3) and that nets me 100 extra sp on top of the extra sp for the +2 wisdom.

So instead of losing in 3 areas of spellcasting for a gain in 1. I'm gaining in 2 areas and losing in 2. And, to me at least, the gains outweigh the losses, thus making me a better caster.

And as the icing on the cake, I even get my wisdom to my AC and a free stunning fist feat. My biggest concern is finding decent kamas.

If I splash a level of wizard, I get +20% Force and Fire damage, an equal amount of spell points (assuming I can get my Int up to 20, otherwise a trivial loss) and bonus feat (for Spell penetration). Again, a gain in 1 area (SR) for a loss in 1 (spells) and +20% damage. I'd say that makes me a better caster.

Aashrym
03-26-2012, 07:38 PM
I should have the same opportunity to land my weaker spells as an arcane.

You do. They are called sorcerers, bards, and artificers. Your DC's are not far behind a wizard to start with, are ahead of artificers by a fair bit, and on par with sorcerers and bard casters.

As a matter of fact all you need to do is follow the TR train and grab 3 sorc past lives for 3 more DC's on implosion as opposed to the lack of ability to do the same thing with wiz/sorc instant death spells. Something bards and artificers do not even possess when you bring up the bonus to blade barrier for artificers.

You also have more healing than any other class, higher hit points than other classes that might be considered casters other than FvS, better armor options than any of those other classes for when it does matter, and a wide variety of melee buffs not available to many of those classes either.

We just saw a WIS alchemical bonus added to be available but not INT or CHA.

Going for DC's on a sorc or archmage means giving up SP self healing or else going WF and giving up casting stat on a sorc and enhancements for the casting stat on an archmage. Archmages are also limited in how many schools they actually have DC bonuses in. Bards are restricted to comparative DC's in a single school. Artificers have lower DC's in all schools.

Sorc's have no DC advantages over clerics at all so if they can make the DC's so can you, especially if they can do it by giving up casting stat in the race adjustments and race enhancements, and not having the advantage of alchemical CHA. You actually have better DC's than most sorcs.

This game is not balanced around wizard DC's. This is pretty obvious by the number of other effective casters in all content. Just sayin'. ;)

Matuse
03-26-2012, 07:55 PM
If I splash a level of wizard, I get +20% Force and Fire damage, an equal amount of spell points (assuming I can get my Int up to 20, otherwise a trivial loss) and bonus feat (for Spell penetration). Again, a gain in 1 area (SR) for a loss in 1 (spells) and +20% damage. I'd say that makes me a better caster.

If you splash 20 levels of Favored Soul, you get +30% Force and Fire damage, vastly MORE spellpoints, and all fear-susceptible enemies give you an effective +2 DC and +2 Spell Pen that stacks with everything.

Taking levels of Monk still makes you a worse caster, and 1 extra point of DC isn't going to make up for what you lose.

Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

Aashrym
03-26-2012, 08:13 PM
Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

This would be a much better suggestion to work on. Look for domains and a more caster oriented PrE.

DeathsApprentice
03-27-2012, 01:23 AM
We just saw a WIS alchemical bonus added to be available but not INT or CHA.


Hmmm, I'll need to look into the cannith raids then. Thanks for the info.

DeathsApprentice
03-27-2012, 01:33 AM
If you splash 20 levels of Favored Soul, you get +30% Force and Fire damage, vastly MORE spellpoints, and all fear-susceptible enemies give you an effective +2 DC and +2 Spell Pen that stacks with everything.

Taking levels of Monk still makes you a worse caster, and 1 extra point of DC isn't going to make up for what you lose.

Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

I'm not going to argue about implementing domains, I'd like to see those as well. My original idea was about the capstone: and I still feel that the current capstone is not worth taking the 20th level of cleric for. +2 wisdom would make me hesitate to splash, the current does not.

About the FvS comment: I have a capped and TR'ed FvS. I know how effective they are. I'd like my cleric to be just as powerful and not just as a healbot.