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View Full Version : Greensteel Handwraps: Not new news, just sign the damn thing... :)



whitehawk74
03-18-2012, 06:00 AM
Yes, I know that not being able to craft GS handwraps is not new news, but thats not going to stop me from complaining and demanding, no sirree.

Before Turbine introduces the new big bag of bugs (read: Druids) I would like them to actually put some attention into the handwrap bugs that so many people talk about

---- AND ----

allow us to make GS handwraps.
so, without further fuss,

/signed

noinfo
03-18-2012, 06:03 AM
Yes, I know that not being able to craft GS handwraps is not new news, but thats not going to stop me from complaining and demanding, no sirree.

Before Turbine introduces the new big bag of bugs (read: Druids) I would like them to actually put some attention into the handwrap bugs that so many people talk about

---- AND ----

allow us to make GS handwraps.
so, without further fuss,

/signed

And remove the ability of TOD rings to increase their damage? I certainly would have been for signing something like this but I still have some issues with TOD rings and their stacking with other wraps and sources so I think this ship has sailed particulary with TOD rings stacking with alchemicals already.

whitehawk74
03-18-2012, 06:25 AM
I have never run TOD and I dont know what the rings do, but if they mess with wraps then its a bug. Squish the bug and give me my GS handwraps! :)

noinfo
03-18-2012, 07:31 AM
I have never run TOD and I dont know what the rings do, but if they mess with wraps then its a bug. Squish the bug and give me my GS handwraps! :)

They were given as a replacement for GS wraps, this allowed monks to get additional dps on rings at the cost of stats and other effects. This gave them a dps bonus that stacked with any wraps (well when wraps not bugging) giving them alchemicals that stack with this gave them a dps advantage in some areas as they have an inherent dps based advantage option over other melee types with these. Giving them GS wraps is something that needed to happen BEFORE TOD rings.

And its not a bug its WAI

InsanityIsYourFriend
03-19-2012, 03:46 PM
still want GS handwraps whats wrong with em?
i'd love to have me some lit 2 handwraps! (imagine the lightning raining down on my GTWF grandmaster of thunder stance monk)

Silverwren
03-20-2012, 12:33 PM
While I would love to be able to craft GS handwraps and I think we should be able to, I'd rather they just fix the bug(s) with handwraps overall. It really wouldn't make sense to create a bugged pair of GS wraps.

WruntJunior
03-20-2012, 12:37 PM
With alchemical wraps as an option, any desire I had for greensteel wraps has disappeared....+4 insight bonus to ac, stunning +10, shocking burst, corrosive salt, crushing wave, +2 wisdom (stacking), an elemental fireball type thing, silver, AND the ability to make them +7 (though I'm thinking Cold Iron for the expansion) all on one item is much better than greensteel for handwraps, I think.

Adrian99
03-20-2012, 01:31 PM
All of the possible combinations of the existing ingredient set have recipes. Therefore, without adding even more ingredients, which would cause mass panic, your request is impossible to satisfy.

redspecter23
03-20-2012, 02:05 PM
I'd love for greensteel wraps to be added. It would be nice to not have to wait until level 18 on a monk TR to see their "good" weapons kick in. I think that alchemicals are the best replacements we have for now and they are good at what they do. I don't think greensteel wraps would necessitate the removal of tod ring burst effects. In general, I only use one bursting ring right now anyway as Epic Ring of the Stalker is my go-to second ring most times now.

UrbanPyro
03-20-2012, 06:44 PM
Deleted.

noinfo
03-20-2012, 07:07 PM
I'd love for greensteel wraps to be added. It would be nice to not have to wait until level 18 on a monk TR to see their "good" weapons kick in. I think that alchemicals are the best replacements we have for now and they are good at what they do. I don't think greensteel wraps would necessitate the removal of tod ring burst effects. In general, I only use one bursting ring right now anyway as Epic Ring of the Stalker is my go-to second ring most times now.

1 ring is still more than other melee get and apply to both hands.

redspecter23
03-20-2012, 08:31 PM
1 ring is still more than other melee get and apply to both hands.

And most other melee get to use that slot for +2 str, +2 con or healing amp. It is powerful on a monk, but they do give up something for that power.

HungarianRhapsody
03-20-2012, 08:35 PM
If Alchemical wraps won't hurt the game, then Greensteel wraps certainly won't hurt it.

/signed.

WruntJunior
03-20-2012, 09:05 PM
And most other melee get to use that slot for +2 str, +2 con or healing amp. It is powerful on a monk, but they do give up something for that power.

Other melees get ravager, which is also 2d6.

noinfo
03-20-2012, 11:17 PM
And most other melee get to use that slot for +2 str, +2 con or healing amp. It is powerful on a monk, but they do give up something for that power.

+2 to str rather than a burst for dps? There is really no comparison there. Healing amp is a contender for many though but that being said that will only consume 1 of the 2 rings so normally it would come down to at most a burst attack vs +1 to hit and damage or since monks healing amp is a class ability you could easily go 2 burst effects and still have healing amp on gloves anyway.

Don't get me wrong monks have had it hard at times and their wraps are often broken but in terms of current end game stuff they are ahead in many areas particulary in terms of TOD rings and alchemical wraps. GS wraps I have no problems with but the fact that they stack so easily with TOD rings I would like to see either:

GS wraps and no TOD ring burst effects (rings must be able to be recrafted)
GS wraps and all melee can burst rings (rings must be able to be recrafted)

With TOD rings and Alchemicals I think they need to reconsider how they interact but since my monk is not currently capped I can't say how it really looks first hand and I know how I hate people who don't actually play stuff commenting on someting as fact without trying it first.

redspecter23
03-20-2012, 11:59 PM
Other melees get ravager, which is also 2d6.

Pretty much this right here. If monks are overpowered because of bursts on rings, then how is this fair to keep around if bursts were to be abolished in favor of greensteel wraps. Even the tempest set would be a nice bonus on a monk if it worked, but nada on that too. One could argue that the burst on tod rings is a replacement for greensteel, but one could just as easily argue it's a replacement for ravager, tempest and other effects that unarmed doesn't get. I'm looking at smiting and destruction on DT as well as blasting chime. There is much more give and take than just bursts and greensteel.

noinfo
03-21-2012, 12:17 AM
Pretty much this right here. If monks are overpowered because of bursts on rings, then how is this fair to keep around if bursts were to be abolished in favor of greensteel wraps. Even the tempest set would be a nice bonus on a monk if it worked, but nada on that too. One could argue that the burst on tod rings is a replacement for greensteel, but one could just as easily argue it's a replacement for ravager, tempest and other effects that unarmed doesn't get. I'm looking at smiting and destruction on DT as well as blasting chime. There is much more give and take than just bursts and greensteel.

1. Ravager is a set bonus of 2 pieces of gear and means that whoever is wearing it must use that set.
2. The ravager is a single ring set not 2 ie you can wear 2 of any ring for the burst bonus, having this apply only on monk rings when worn with appropriate set would not be an issue.
3. The fact that those effects do NOT work on monk I believe is what should be fixed. I am sure there would be monks who would use the ravager belt (though devs have said WAI) over spare hand but not sure how many would.
4. Comparing the Tempest set to the shinto set is a bit off isn't it?

I am all for them fixing those effects on effects that do not proc on unarmed and I am just as happy for them to apply TOD ring bonuses to all melee.

This being said, they also need to increase dramatically the metalic wraps type dropn rates.

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 12:21 AM
Pretty much this right here. If monks are overpowered because of bursts on rings, then how is this fair to keep around if bursts were to be abolished in favor of greensteel wraps. Even the tempest set would be a nice bonus on a monk if it worked, but nada on that too. One could argue that the burst on tod rings is a replacement for greensteel, but one could just as easily argue it's a replacement for ravager, tempest and other effects that unarmed doesn't get. I'm looking at smiting and destruction on DT as well as blasting chime. There is much more give and take than just bursts and greensteel.

I really don't understand what would make greensteel wraps so powerful....they don't even break devil dr for the good ones unless you're a shintao, and that puts them way behind alchemicals...and as for boss-specific dps, monks already have weapons that are effectively equivalent to lit2 weapons: cannith-crafted boss beaters. All greensteel would do is add a few options...but even there, I feel as if greensteel weaponry is widely outdated nowadays (though lit2s still make good general dps weapons...but even there, monks get more out of +10 stunners anyways).

Edit: For the record, more than one bursting ring is largely unnecessary....and that being a holy burst ring due to the damage, but more importantly due to the dr breaking. In all honesty, I don't think being able to use ToD rings on melee weapons would be over-powered, but I don't think that's anywhere near necessary for balancing out greensteel wraps IF they became available (and I don't even think greensteel wraps are necessary at all).

noinfo
03-21-2012, 12:23 AM
Other melees get ravager, which is also 2d6.

Excellent so I will craft that on to whatever ring I want and use it without a set? Cool, I can also use it to help break DR too? even better.

I agree there are certainly short comings with handwraps but your example is not comparative.

noinfo
03-21-2012, 12:26 AM
I really don't understand what would make greensteel wraps so powerful....they don't even break devil dr for the good ones unless you're a shintao, and that puts them way behind alchemicals...and as for boss-specific dps, monks already have weapons that are effectively equivalent to lit2 weapons: cannith-crafted boss beaters. All greensteel would do is add a few options...but even there, I feel as if greensteel weaponry is widely outdated nowadays (though lit2s still make good general dps weapons...but even there, monks get more out of +10 stunners anyways).

Its certainly not that they would make them OP at all, however TOD rings WERE given as a replacement. This replacement stacks with alchemicals and this is bad enough.

Remove TOD rings from the equation and I have no problems with any of them.

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 12:32 AM
Excellent so I will craft that on to whatever ring I want and use it without a set? Cool, I can also use it to help break DR too? even better.

I agree there are certainly short comings with handwraps but your example is not comparative.

Ravager requires zero sacrifice to equip and is as good of damage as holy burst, generally speaking...and still allows +2 str or con to be crafted, among other things. As long as monks don't get the benefit of things like ravager, other melees shouldn't get the benefit of things like holy burst rings on their weapons.

The only real benefit holy burst has over ravager is dr breaking...but as holy burst is one of the best damage prefixes available, it effectively allows an extra alignment burst at best (sometimes not even that, depending on the boss).

Edit: I will admit that any ring holy bursted is easier to get than a ring of the ravager...but in the balance, the best dps boss-beaters for most characters are much easier to get than the best boss-beaters for monks (and in fact, the best boss-beaters for monks are still broken, as the greater bane portion does not correctly provide its +4 damage...which is a significant short for monks).

noinfo
03-21-2012, 12:43 AM
Ravager requires zero sacrifice to equip and is as good of damage as holy burst, generally speaking...and still allows +2 str or con to be crafted, among other things. As long as monks don't get the benefit of things like ravager, other melees shouldn't get the benefit of things like holy burst rings on their weapons.

The only real benefit holy burst has over ravager is dr breaking...but as holy burst is one of the best damage prefixes available, it effectively allows an extra alignment burst at best (sometimes not even that, depending on the boss).

Edit: I will admit that any ring holy bursted is easier to get than a ring of the ravager...but in the balance, the best dps boss-beaters for most characters are much easier to get than the best boss-beaters for monks (and in fact, the best boss-beaters for monks are still broken, as the greater bane portion does not correctly provide its +4 damage...which is a significant short for monks).

Zero Sacrifice?

Not being able to use your PRE set bonus because it conflicts with it begs to differ:
Any pally

Anyone else gives up not 1 but 2 slots for that effect. That IS giving up something for it.

I am also not trying to call nerf nerf, if they leave it as is so be it, I think its a little much but not so much that I would sufferer forum rage over it. I would prefer a more even playing field of consistency though (and that would inlude currently non procing effects for unarmed)

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 12:50 AM
Zero Sacrifice?

Not being able to use your PRE set bonus because it conflicts with it begs to differ:
Any pally

Anyone else gives up not 1 but 2 slots for that effect. That IS giving up something for it.

I am also not trying to call nerf nerf, if they leave it as is so be it, I think its a little much but not so much that I would sufferer forum rage over it. I would prefer a more even playing field of consistency though (and that would inlude currently non procing effects for unarmed)

Outside of a KOTC paladin (3d6 damage instead of 2d6 on their set, but limited on enemies), for dps mode no other items come close to Colethenis's Belt and Ring of the Ravager for dps. It is common sense to equip these items, not a sacrifice.

Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

noinfo
03-21-2012, 01:09 AM
Outside of a KOTC paladin (3d6 damage instead of 2d6 on their set, but limited on enemies), for dps mode no other items come close to Colethenis's Belt and Ring of the Ravager for dps. It is common sense to equip these items, not a sacrifice.

Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

Really so 2d6 now trumps everything in TOD sets now? AND it is nothing to give up a slot that could be used for something else?
Belt can be GS misc slot, can be spare hand or any other epic belt or item etc, giving up a slot for that 2d6 is most certainly an issue and you can't support a claim otherwise. Other TOD set items give things OTHER than dps which can be useful.
As for other wraps, cool go ahead and craft a beater for every boss type.

And to clarrify, the horse has already bolted in terms of gs wraps and TOD rings with the coming of alchemical. IMO and I will state that I am far from an expert the very fact that these things allow for stacking is an issue. I am less concerned about it than I am about other areas in the game but since this post was clearly about GS wraps and why we don't have them it is simple, we were given TOD rings instead. I would have prefered GS wraps over TOD rings for consistency but now its too late and I don't think adding GS would fix it.

jojoalva69
03-21-2012, 01:10 AM
Leave ToD rings, eliminate the idea of GS wraps, and move on...

Not to mention that would hurt what a Ninja Spy is... Quite badly.
Almost obsolete badly...

/not signed, nerf wars are no fun when it's a one sided battle.
(Monks lose and everyone else wins. I don't think I like that idea at all)

noinfo
03-21-2012, 01:13 AM
If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

So what you are really making a case for is that TOD in general make all wraps OP?

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 01:16 AM
So what you are really making a case for is that TOD in general make all wraps OP?

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

noinfo
03-21-2012, 01:39 AM
How on earth did you get that from what I said?


Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

It not exactly uncommon knowledge that Holyburst weapon of whatever outsiderbane is the best dps weapons vs most other types of weapons which is what I believe what you intended to point out. However your example pointed out monk wraps can be Anachaic Burst, still break DR due to ring for extra bursting goodness and have (if they wish a electric burst on the other ring.

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 01:54 AM
It not exactly uncommon knowledge that Holyburst weapon of whatever outsiderbane is the best dps weapons vs most other types of weapons which is what I believe what you intended to point out. However your example pointed out monk wraps can be Anachaic Burst, still break DR due to ring for extra bursting goodness and have (if they wish a electric burst on the other ring.

On handwraps in air stance (the highest dps stance), assuming you're hitting on a 2 and confirming on a 1, burst over normal for alignment adds about 1 damage per swing. That means you're essentially getting almost the exact same benefit any other melee can get from the ravager set with +2 str on the ring... so under the best circumstances, melees tend to get a very similar benefit. The free dr/good breaking is a decent boost...but if free dr breaking was my only concern, I'd have no argument, as a shintao with the shintao set would be very well-off in that regard whereas a dark monk would be in the same boat as most other dps for dr breaking...with the added caveat of pulling silver handwraps being near-mythical, whereas I can barely give away other types of silver weapons.

I really don't get where you're saying there's any real OPness here.

whitehawk74
03-21-2012, 10:05 AM
well i havent got positive rep for this thread, and I dont post threads to gain rep.
I hand it out all the time, probably too generously, but its not like its money :)

InsanityIsYourFriend
03-21-2012, 12:51 PM
no one looking at base dmg?
GS handwraps would have no extra base dmg like EVERY OTHER WEAPON GS/alchemical get
nor do we get ups with our "epic" handwraps

sooo your ESOS has what base die? handwraps should get 1/2 that? there now were balanced

sephiroth1084
03-21-2012, 01:34 PM
Fix handwraps bugs.
Greensteel wraps need a lot of other things to be done first, like making changes in one way or another to ToD rings, and addressing existing bugs with handwraps, since greensteel is likely to exacerbate some of those issues.


And most other melee get to use that slot for +2 str, +2 con or healing amp. It is powerful on a monk, but they do give up something for that power.
+2 Str is pretty poor when stacked up next to a bursting ring. +2 Con is as well, I'd argue, but it's not a direct comparison and as we get more content where elemental bursts are insignificant (Lord of Blades, for example), having a second ring with an exceptional stat or healing amp will be more common. Once we get the ability to wipe and recraft rings (being discussed at least, if not already in development by the devs), that will become even more true.

Other melees get ravager, which is also 2d6.
That is almost certainly a bug, or should be considered so. However, remember that a monk could have +3d6 on all their attacks and +3d6, +1d10 on their crits while using a Holy of Greater Bane that bypasses DR. That is a lot more significant than the Ravager set bonus, +2 Str and +2 Con in most situations.

If it were deemed that greensteel wraps were really important, I would suggest that the ToD rings be changed to grant the Blast effect (greensteel tier III--extra damage on crit and vorpal) instead of Burst (extra damage on hit and crit), while still allowing Good Blast and Unholy Blast (or whatever it's called) to align your attacks. I think that would be a rather large penalty to many players, though, and I don't think that greensteel wraps should be made without addressing the ToD rings. I'm also against simply allowing the ToD ring bursts to work for all melee, as that would in effect erase the other possible enchantments on the rings for most melee, as Holy Burst is too hard to pass up if you care about DPS (and would represent yet another proxy nerf to the paladin capstone, but that's a minor point).

WruntJunior
03-21-2012, 01:53 PM
Fix handwraps bugs.
Greensteel wraps need a lot of other things to be done first, like making changes in one way or another to ToD rings, and addressing existing bugs with handwraps, since greensteel is likely to exacerbate some of those issues.


+2 Str is pretty poor when stacked up next to a bursting ring. +2 Con is as well, I'd argue, but it's not a direct comparison and as we get more content where elemental bursts are insignificant (Lord of Blades, for example), having a second ring with an exceptional stat or healing amp will be more common. Once we get the ability to wipe and recraft rings (being discussed at least, if not already in development by the devs), that will become even more true.

That is almost certainly a bug, or should be considered so. However, remember that a monk could have +3d6 on all their attacks and +3d6, +1d10 on their crits while using a Holy of Greater Bane that bypasses DR. That is a lot more significant than the Ravager set bonus, +2 Str and +2 Con in most situations.

If it were deemed that greensteel wraps were really important, I would suggest that the ToD rings be changed to grant the Blast effect (greensteel tier III--extra damage on crit and vorpal) instead of Burst (extra damage on hit and crit), while still allowing Good Blast and Unholy Blast (or whatever it's called) to align your attacks. I think that would be a rather large penalty to many players, though, and I don't think that greensteel wraps should be made without addressing the ToD rings. I'm also against simply allowing the ToD ring bursts to work for all melee, as that would in effect erase the other possible enchantments on the rings for most melee, as Holy Burst is too hard to pass up if you care about DPS (and would represent yet another proxy nerf to the paladin capstone, but that's a minor point).

I really think greensteel handwraps are so unimportant that the concern can largely be dropped both ways - for leveling, +10 stunners are amazing...at cap, alchemicals (especially with +10 stunning from air 1) are amazing. It's such a non-issue, really...especially as for the dark monks, the best dps greensteel wraps would already be behind alchemicals, which can have silver....and the dark monks already have the highest dps wraps available through cannith crafting for specific enemies (which makes it much easier for me, as I have been trying (and failing) to collect the best greater bane wraps for about a year and a half now...still haven't SEEN banishing of greater ele bane), where as alchemicals offer the best general dps while, at tier 2, can be effectively +11. Between Cannith Crafting, Challenges, and Alchemicals, the need for greensteel wraps is pretty far gone.

Avidus
03-21-2012, 02:09 PM
Just an fyi for everyone, ravager not working with handswraps is WAI. Here's a qoute from Eladrin

In DDO, we have some distinctions between "unarmed", "melee", "ranged" (sometimes called "missile"), and "thrown" attacks.

Some effects, such as the Tower of Despair ring damage effects, only apply to unarmed combat. Others apply to a subset of the attack types or to all of them. The Ravager set bonus was set up to apply only to melee (weapon) attacks.

It's generally up to the designer of an item or effect as to what they want it to apply to, though some of those attack types have more versatility behind the scenes than others.

I do agree that it should be made clearer in the item descriptions what these things apply to.
And here's one from KoboldTerror
The Ravager's Cut effect ... requires a melee weapon and the proc is slashing damage. Unarmed does not count as a melee weapon.