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decease
03-14-2012, 10:43 PM
hmm.. what about let all summon monster cr match to your caster level? so we could have cr 20 rat from summon monster I =P

p.s. oh and also apply this to pm summon skeleton..

Drekisen
03-15-2012, 05:11 AM
I'd like to see two improvements for Summon.

One...we should have the power to dismiss them at will.

Two......conjuration DC should have an effect on it.....it would make that school all that much more appealing.

A more powerful conjuror would be able to summon more powerful pets...makes sense....but maybe that's the problem :D

InsanityIsYourFriend
03-15-2012, 12:28 PM
I agree that conjuration should help it, maybe caster level is a bit much (earth savant summons a earth elemental, at caster level 26? dont forget water elemental, air elemental, fire elmental....)
conjuration should get something to help it though....
maybe if you have X conjuration or more you can summon more than one thing? like i'd love to summon an eladrin and a ghale at the same time, maybe even a lantern archon, but make it to where summon from same sources cancel each other out (so you can only have one summon IX and 1 summon from say VIII but never 2 IX or VIII ect.

Drekisen
03-15-2012, 04:39 PM
I agree that conjuration should help it, maybe caster level is a bit much (earth savant summons a earth elemental, at caster level 26? dont forget water elemental, air elemental, fire elmental....)
conjuration should get something to help it though....
maybe if you have X conjuration or more you can summon more than one thing? like i'd love to summon an eladrin and a ghale at the same time, maybe even a lantern archon, but make it to where summon from same sources cancel each other out (so you can only have one summon IX and 1 summon from say VIII but never 2 IX or VIII ect.

I already have this as a PM...I absolutely LOL at the people who say PM summons are not worth it....for 30 SP......those mages crank out a lot of damage...a heck of a lot more than 30 SP worth.......who cares if they die after one fight...I can guarantee you they put out more than 30 sp worth of damage easily. They are especially nice when you're fighting undead too and you can't use your free SLA's.

Level 13 was awesome running around with my summons from Create Undead and my Blackbone Mage. Freekin mummy despairs stuff left and right too HAHA.

Silverwren
03-16-2012, 08:25 AM
Something like this already exists in game. The Augment Summoning feat.

From DDO Wiki:

Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +4 to all ability scores, increased health, and increased fortification (+50%).
This includes Defender/Companion series (Iron, Mithral, Adamantine, Steel), Summon Monster 1-9, Nature's Ally 1-4, Pale Master skeletons, Drow Scorpion Faith, Charmed minions, Dominated minions, Hirelings, but not Hireling Summons Eg. A hireling sorcerer using Summon Monster I, the celestial dog would not be augmented.
Charmed or Dominated minions with Augment Summoning will also receive a bonus to saves from the ability score increase to escape the effect, but will lose bonuses from Augment Summoning once they do and can be re-Charmed or re-Dominated.


It's not quite what the OP suggests but at least it's a boost.

Mad_ScientistsNH
03-16-2012, 08:39 AM
I think that's actually fairly different. Augmented Summons is a feat that anyone can have, while a Conjuration bonus to Summon Monster would be a boost to a powerful conjurer.

Honestly though, at least all summoned monsters are better than what the poor Ranger gets.

ShadowFlash
03-16-2012, 08:39 AM
One...we should have the power to dismiss them at will.


^^^yes,yes, and more yes
/signed

Example: Enter The Kobold

We use an Air Elemental for all the !@#$ tripping dogs. This makes it an absolute breeze. Get to the puzzle...wait...wait...smoke a cig...bio...grab a samich....make a drink...wait...wait...smoke another cig...finally the summon has expired and I can solve the puzzle without it zipping through barriers to randomly trip tiles and make my life so much more frustrating :p

Example #2: It ain't fun to swim and still see where yer goin' with a beholder (xoriat trinket) up your !@#

A simple "dismiss summon" would solve a lot of headaches.

ShadowFlash

Phemt81
03-16-2012, 09:50 AM
One...we should have the power to dismiss them at will.

This and

A simple enhancement line for builds with augmented summon feat, just llike toughness... I don't think we are asking the moon.

Failedlegend
03-16-2012, 03:24 PM
I'd like to see two improvements for Summon.

One...we should have the power to dismiss them at will.

Two......conjuration DC should have an effect on it.....it would make that school all that much more appealing.

A more powerful conjuror would be able to summon more powerful pets...makes sense....but maybe that's the problem :D

This and an enhancement line that requires Augment Summoning...I would LOVE to play a summoner build

HatsuharuZ
03-17-2012, 12:31 AM
This and an enhancement line that requires Augment Summoning...I would LOVE to play a summoner build

It would be a good help to those great axe-wielding horc wizards I see running around sometimes, too. :D

Forgeborn
03-17-2012, 01:43 AM
hmm.. what about let all summon monster cr match to your caster level? so we could have cr 20 rat from summon monster I =P

p.s. oh and also apply this to pm summon skeleton..

part 1: no, that would invalidate most of the summon monster spells, since people would just cast summon monster of the lowest useful level (e.g. the most useful mob... the trip dog comes to mind which is 1 I believe)

part 2: this exists, it's called the enhancement line, stronger summon, advance the line further and it'll be stronger.

extra: I would much prefer an enhancement line:
something along the following lines, Available to cleric, FVS, artificer, wizard, sorcerer, and ranger (e.g. all classes that have innate summoning abilities. These would NOT work on hirelings:
Augment summons

Rank 1, 1 AP, minimum level 1: All summons gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage, and their fortification increases by 25%
Rank 2: 2 AP, minimum level 3, requires Augment summons I AND Augment summoning: All summons gain a +2 bonus to strength and constitution, their bonus to attack and damage increases to +2, you can summon multiple monsters of a lower level by using higher level summoning spells.*
Rank 3: 3 AP, minimum level 7, requires Augment summons II: The bonus to attack and damage for all summons increases to +3, in addition, their fortification increases by an additional 25%
Rank 4: 4 AP, minimum level 10, requires Augment summons III AND one of mental toughness or Iron will: All summons gain an additional +2 bonus to strength and constitution, their bonus to attack and damage increases to +4, and they gain a 20% increase to their HP, you can summon multiple monsters of a lower level by using higher level summoning spells.*

End result: +4 strength, +4 con, +4 to attack, +4 to damage, +50% fortification, +20% HP
*see below

that, in combination with the following suggestion (which would bring summon monster closer to it's pnp roots) should help the summoning a bit.

Requires rank 2 the summoner enhancement line: Starting at summon monster II, When casting this spell you can choose to summon 1D3 monsters of the summon monster spell one level lower (which in this case would be 1D3 rats, for example)

Requires rank 4 of the summoner enhancement line: Starting at summon monster III, when casting this spell, you can choose to summon 1D4+1 monsters of the choices given of a summon monster spell 2 levels lower. (so for summon 3 that would allow for 1D4+1 rats, for summon monster 9 it would allow you to summon 1D4+1 huge earth elementals (since those are on the summon 7 list))


Final word: yes, the AP, and feat, required are on the high side, but having a bunch of summons which draw aggro away from you, with some staying power, is a huge boon. Augment summoning speaks for itself, the mental toughness/iron will is there to indicate that strength of mind is required to maintain control of that many creatures at once.

Drekisen
03-17-2012, 10:50 AM
part 1: no, that would invalidate most of the summon monster spells, since people would just cast summon monster of the lowest useful level (e.g. the most useful mob... the trip dog comes to mind which is 1 I believe)

part 2: this exists, it's called the enhancement line, stronger summon, advance the line further and it'll be stronger.

extra: I would much prefer an enhancement line:
something along the following lines, Available to cleric, FVS, artificer, wizard, sorcerer, and ranger (e.g. all classes that have innate summoning abilities. These would NOT work on hirelings:
Augment summons

Rank 1, 1 AP, minimum level 1: All summons gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage, and their fortification increases by 25%
Rank 2: 2 AP, minimum level 3, requires Augment summons I AND Augment summoning: All summons gain a +2 bonus to strength and constitution, their bonus to attack and damage increases to +2, you can summon multiple monsters of a lower level by using higher level summoning spells.*
Rank 3: 3 AP, minimum level 7, requires Augment summons II: The bonus to attack and damage for all summons increases to +3, in addition, their fortification increases by an additional 25%
Rank 4: 4 AP, minimum level 10, requires Augment summons III AND one of mental toughness or Iron will: All summons gain an additional +2 bonus to strength and constitution, their bonus to attack and damage increases to +4, and they gain a 20% increase to their HP, you can summon multiple monsters of a lower level by using higher level summoning spells.*

End result: +4 strength, +4 con, +4 to attack, +4 to damage, +50% fortification, +20% HP
*see below

that, in combination with the following suggestion (which would bring summon monster closer to it's pnp roots) should help the summoning a bit.

Requires rank 2 the summoner enhancement line: Starting at summon monster II, When casting this spell you can choose to summon 1D3 monsters of the summon monster spell one level lower (which in this case would be 1D3 rats, for example)

Requires rank 4 of the summoner enhancement line: Starting at summon monster III, when casting this spell, you can choose to summon 1D4+1 monsters of the choices given of a summon monster spell 2 levels lower. (so for summon 3 that would allow for 1D4+1 rats, for summon monster 9 it would allow you to summon 1D4+1 huge earth elementals (since those are on the summon 7 list))


Final word: yes, the AP, and feat, required are on the high side, but having a bunch of summons which draw aggro away from you, with some staying power, is a huge boon. Augment summoning speaks for itself, the mental toughness/iron will is there to indicate that strength of mind is required to maintain control of that many creatures at once.

Have to say I completely disagree with this implementation......10 more AP's.......too much.....make them a little less powerful and 1 AP a tier I might go along with tho.

And you left out Conjuration DC.....I'm sorry but summon is conjuration.....your DC in that school should have an effect on your summon(s)......not hirelings.......but summons yes. And for PM's their Necro DC should effect their skellies.

Alrik_Fassbauer
03-17-2012, 10:59 AM
One...we should have the power to dismiss them at will.

/signed

And a monster should be summonnable everywhere within a quest.

Sometimes, Cleric hirelings just don't do it. And I haven't got a clue why.

Drekisen
03-17-2012, 11:06 AM
/signed

And a monster should be summonnable everywhere within a quest.

Sometimes, Cleric hirelings just don't do it. And I haven't got a clue why.

Hirelings are inherently stupid tho :p

Forgeborn
03-17-2012, 11:15 AM
Have to say I completely disagree with this implementation......10 more AP's.......too much.....make them a little less powerful and 1 AP a tier I might go along with tho.

And you left out Conjuration DC.....I'm sorry but summon is conjuration.....your DC in that school should have an effect on your summon(s)......not hirelings.......but summons yes. And for PM's their Necro DC should effect their skellies.

Conjuration DC's affect other spells, with summon spells you are summoning a creature from a different plane, not 'making' one from scratch, so all that the conjuration DC would be used for would be giving the potentially soon to be bound creature a save against it, which would serve to weaken the summoning spells, instead of boost them. A different way to look at it, would be allowing you a percentile chance based on your DC to summon a more powerful creature then the 'base' creature you were trying to summon. So instead of a 'huge earth elemental' you'd have 40% chance to summon a 'huge adamant earth elemental' or something along those lines. Look at solid fog, which is also a conjuration, but does not have a save, it just has it's effect (unless the creature is flat out immune to it) on the enemy, regardless of your DC, which is the same as summoning a creature, it has it's effect, regardless of it's DC.

For PM summons, why would the PM's feats affect the summons abilities? they are separate entities and do not share feats, skill, HP, ability scores, or anything else then the bond that binds the created creature to the pale master. Augment summoning is specific in it's regards that it ONLY affects the summoned/created creatures, and has no advantage to the character that takes it.

'make them a little less powerful' would come down to cutting everything except the +x to hit and damage, maybe allowing the con/str to remain, but the fort/+hp/multi-summon would be lost. My implementation, it's cost, and it's power, would replace one of the elemental lines for a standard caster, due to their relative use, that's at least my motivation for it. Sure, it's off lesser use on boss fights, but so is an enchantment spec. 10 AP's sounds about right in my opinion for what my proposed enhancement line would offer to the caster.

Failedlegend
03-17-2012, 11:43 AM
Personally I think the following should happen

- Make the PM Undead Summons function similar the Arty Construct (Same should be true for familiars, animal companions,etc.)...despite some inane complaining from a vocal minority their a fairly effective companion especially when compared to hirelings and regular summons...also Necro DC should affect them in some way.

- Summons SHOULD rely on Conjuration DC in some way to increase their power...at least make it so a Conjuration Archmage gets some bonuses with Summons.

- Augment Summonings should get a enhancement line..nothing too powerful but enough that it makes summons worth the casting time at least

- Allow us to dismiss summons

- Summons should NOT get a control bar...their only their because you dragged em their...they'll fight for you until the contract (10 minutes) is up but they fight in their style not what you tell them to do

- Much less important but would help immersion...when the 10 minutes is up the summon should not "die" they should get sucked/step into a portal or something

Havok.cry
03-17-2012, 01:45 PM
I think summon monster spells shoould be changed to what they were in pnp. Short duration long cast time, mobs that go crazy on you enemies, next level can summon one of new teir of monsters or multiple of lower teirs. Not limited to 1, because of short duration they can get multiple.

Then they need to implement the planar ally spells and the gate spell.

That is what I would like to see.

Drekisen
03-17-2012, 02:24 PM
Conjuration DC's affect other spells, with summon spells you are summoning a creature from a different plane, not 'making' one from scratch, so all that the conjuration DC would be used for would be giving the potentially soon to be bound creature a save against it, which would serve to weaken the summoning spells, instead of boost them. A different way to look at it, would be allowing you a percentile chance based on your DC to summon a more powerful creature then the 'base' creature you were trying to summon. So instead of a 'huge earth elemental' you'd have 40% chance to summon a 'huge adamant earth elemental' or something along those lines. Look at solid fog, which is also a conjuration, but does not have a save, it just has it's effect (unless the creature is flat out immune to it) on the enemy, regardless of your DC, which is the same as summoning a creature, it has it's effect, regardless of it's DC.

For PM summons, why would the PM's feats affect the summons abilities? they are separate entities and do not share feats, skill, HP, ability scores, or anything else then the bond that binds the created creature to the pale master. Augment summoning is specific in it's regards that it ONLY affects the summoned/created creatures, and has no advantage to the character that takes it.

'make them a little less powerful' would come down to cutting everything except the +x to hit and damage, maybe allowing the con/str to remain, but the fort/+hp/multi-summon would be lost. My implementation, it's cost, and it's power, would replace one of the elemental lines for a standard caster, due to their relative use, that's at least my motivation for it. Sure, it's off lesser use on boss fights, but so is an enchantment spec. 10 AP's sounds about right in my opinion for what my proposed enhancement line would offer to the caster.

A more powerful conjuror would more strongly be able to manipulate summoning.....I don't see where your argument is going here.

And I didn't say PM feats...I said necro DC's...PM's being more attuned to necromancy would also have more power when summoning an undead minion.

Uhmm sorry.....but a WISDOM dump battle cleric would not conjure a more powerful entity than a 40 conjuration DC full INT wizard.....I know that's how it is in the game now...but it doesn't make any sense...in actuality conjuration takes skill.

Some light based healbot FvS is not going to know more in the ways of undead than a PM who spends most of their life in partial undead form.

Havok.cry
03-17-2012, 02:47 PM
A more powerful conjuror would more strongly be able to manipulate summoning.....I don't see where your argument is going here.

And I didn't say PM feats...I said necro DC's...PM's being more attuned to necromancy would also have more power when summoning an undead minion.

Uhmm sorry.....but a WISDOM dump battle cleric would not conjure a more powerful entity than a 40 conjuration DC full INT wizard.....I know that's how it is in the game now...but it doesn't make any sense...in actuality conjuration takes skill.

Some light based healbot FvS is not going to know more in the ways of undead than a PM who spends most of their life in partial undead form.

Try basing your argument on fact rather than opinion when you tell someone they are wrong with the words "in actuality"

Talias006
03-17-2012, 03:38 PM
/signed

And a monster should be summonnable everywhere within a quest.

Sometimes, Cleric hirelings just don't do it. And I haven't got a clue why.

If you're referring to the Hireling Summon Monster ability, sometimes they are so stupid you have to click on them to cast a spell that has the signature of "Self."


Try basing your argument on fact rather than opinion when you tell someone they are wrong with the words "in actuality"

Not trying to stand up for anyone else, but the line you are trying to turn from fact to opinion is (IMO) not possible to prove, considering I do not know of any Conjurers "in actuality" to discuss a theory of skill vs raw power.

Drekisen
03-17-2012, 03:44 PM
Try basing your argument on fact rather than opinion when you tell someone they are wrong with the words "in actuality"

It is fact...someone with great skill in something is better than someone with very little or no skill in the same thing.

Havok.cry
03-17-2012, 04:03 PM
It is fact...someone with great skill in something is better than someone with very little or no skill in the same thing.

Nothing about conjuration is "in actuality"

Also summoning is its own special subset of conjuration and doesnt work the same. You are not creating anything with summoning, only calling it to your location, and putting it under your control. You arent even picking the exact thing you summon. You are calling a feindish troll not gorbok the feindish troll. The more power gained by being more powerful is represented by being able to summon more powerful types of monsters. The DCs do not and should not ever have anything to do with summoning. The only way I could see that changing is if the summoner could allow his summoned mobs to use his conj DC for their special abilities that have DCs.

Havok.cry
03-17-2012, 04:09 PM
Not trying to stand up for anyone else, but the line you are trying to turn from fact to opinion is (IMO) not possible to prove, considering I do not know of any Conjurers "in actuality" to discuss a theory of skill vs raw power.

That is kinda what I was trying to point out to that person.

Forgeborn
03-17-2012, 06:32 PM
A more powerful conjuror would more strongly be able to manipulate summoning.....I don't see where your argument is going here.
You're saying that conjuration DC should affect summoning in some meaningful, I say it shouldn't, because you're just calling a creature to you, you're not creating it, just calling it to you and binding it to do your bidding for a short time period, a 'stronger willed' summoner could potentially bind stronger creatures, but he'd first need to locate one of those exceptional specimens, and hope it answers his calling.


And I didn't say PM feats...I said necro DC's...PM's being more attuned to necromancy would also have more power when summoning an undead minion.They do, it's your enhancement line, only PM's can summon those things, you can prove me wrong by showing me any non-PM that has a frostmarrow skeleton of any type under his control, if you wish to do so.


Uhmm sorry.....but a WISDOM dump battle cleric would not conjure a more powerful entity than a 40 conjuration DC full INT wizard.....I know that's how it is in the game now...but it doesn't make any sense...in actuality conjuration takes skill.False, they don't, both classes cast 'summon monster IX', so their summons are the same strength, their strength would only be different if only one of them has the augment summoning feat, please do try to stick to facts if you're referring to the 'live' game. Further, 'in actuality conjuration takes skill' is also false, since in 'actuality' conjuration as we use it in DDO does not exist. (for a generalization, you are correct, a person that practices in something will often be better then somebody who doesn't, but even that doesn't apply to everything.)


Some light based healbot FvS is not going to know more in the ways of undead than a PM who spends most of their life in partial undead form.Being attuned to something, or 'using' it's power doesn't mean knowing everything of it, and you're not partial undead, you're shrouding yourself in negative energy, taking on many traits of the undead, you're still very much alive below that cloak of negative energy. second, that would depend on the personalities of the two, for the PM it could be a path to power, while the 'healbot fvs' studies them as if it were a religion, you cannot measure knowledge of creatures purely by class. (and even if we could, undead fall under knowledge: religion, not knowledge: arcane.)

Doxmaster
03-17-2012, 10:02 PM
And you left out Conjuration DC.....I'm sorry but summon is conjuration.....your DC in that school should have an effect on your summon(s)......not hirelings.......but summons yes. And for PM's their Necro DC should effect their skellies.

I do not recall DCs ever having an effect on Conjuration(summoning) spells in PnP. Skillchecks, yes. Caster levels, yes. DCs no.

Planar binding, on the other hand, allowed a saving throw to resist being summoned, resist being commanded, etc. The duration you can hold the being under your power caps based on your caster level (one day per caster level) for normal situations.


False, they don't, both classes cast 'summon monster IX', so their summons are the same strength, their strength would only be different if only one of them has the augment summoning feat, please do try to stick to facts if you're referring to the 'live' game. Further, 'in actuality conjuration takes skill' is also false, since in 'actuality' conjuration as we use it in DDO does not exist. (for a generalization, you are correct, a person that practices in something will often be better then somebody who doesn't, but even that doesn't apply to everything.)


Well...capability of the mage casting the spell did have an effect in PnP; the duration of the spell was based off caster level. Once again returning to Planar binding, EVERYTHING depended on the ability of the caster-

Caster level equals how long the being is bound
DC determines what beings you should aim for
Spell pen begets summoning beings with better spell resistance
knowing True Names allows you to target specific beings and up the ante in negotiations...

To improve Pale Master summons (besides reducing/removing the extraneous investments you need to put in to even unlock access to the summons...), I would suggest bringing Corpse Crafter feats in the form of an AP line. Somehow. Making it apply to all 'summons' would be nice.

The original feats were:
Corpse Crafter-Bonus HP and Strength: another stacking +4 con would work here.
Nimble Bones-Bonus move speed: weak alone. Perhaps add evasion to it as well.
Explosive retribution-Explode when killed: Fine as is.
Deathly Chill-bonus damage on attacks: Weak, but hard to improve upon.
Hardened Flesh-Boosted AC: Bonus DR and AC would be great.

Planar Binding spells would also be a lovely addition, after they are reworked to be usable here. As would Animate dead making an appearance in some form; I'm partial to it being a necromancy fueled 'Charm/Dominate Monster'.

TekkenDevil
03-17-2012, 10:09 PM
Two......conjuration DC should have an effect on it.....it would make that school all that much more appealing.

Doesn't make much sense. You summon monsters from the wilderness or another plane. Conjuration would mean you create them yourself. Unless the teleportation that is involved in the summoning is your doing, and if that teleportation could be classified as Conjuration, your suggestion wouldn't really work in technicality.

Let's say an Ice Reaver is minding his own business, just chilling in the plane of Fernia. Suddenly you cast a spell, calling upon him, then he teleports to your plane and location through it's own magic. There's not much conjuration going on.

Failedlegend
03-18-2012, 12:12 AM
Explosive retribution-Explode when killed: Fine as is.


If they added JUST this feat I'd be using my pets WAY more if only to watch them explode

nibel
03-18-2012, 01:09 AM
In PnP, Augment Summon requires Spell Focus Conjuration. I think spell focus is a better requisite than iron mind or mental toughness for the upper tiers.

I agree that they should allow us to summon a pack of lower level mobs. But at the same time, I think they dont do it to not raise even more the lag issues we have. AI pathing is a n² problem. Adding one more AI more than double the issue.
=======================
PM Skellies should be a permanent pet like the artie's dog. Start with a basic skeleton (the one you get at PM I), and buy enhancements to set him into a class: Knight, Archer, Arcane. Knight have much more HP, AC, DR, tactics and intimidate. Archer have a big to-hit, (improved) evasion, crippling, slowburst, and cursespewing. Arcane is what we have now (by far, the most useful skelly around, but expensive on APs). Later we can add Frostmarrow (permanent cold shield (damage only), Icy burst on weapons, superior ice lore on caster, weak against fire), or Blackbone (immunity to fire, resistance to lightning and acid, slower swing and casting speed).

Doxmaster
03-18-2012, 02:06 AM
PM Skellies should be a permanent pet like the artie's dog. Start with a basic skeleton (the one you get at PM I), and buy enhancements to set him into a class: Knight, Archer, Arcane. Knight have much more HP, AC, DR, tactics and intimidate. Archer have a big to-hit, (improved) evasion, crippling, slowburst, and cursespewing. Arcane is what we have now (by far, the most useful skelly around, but expensive on APs). Later we can add Frostmarrow (permanent cold shield (damage only), Icy burst on weapons, superior ice lore on caster, weak against fire), or Blackbone (immunity to fire, resistance to lightning and acid, slower swing and casting speed).

I really would like this, high viability or low. Of course, there is the matter of what you technically said... "permanent pet" is a very accurate description of what Pale Masters currently have. The skeletons, once summoned, can only be replaced or die. They will non de-spawn due to time.

Problem is, the True Permanent Pet thing is currently part of the Artificer Niche and...well...PMs are powerful. Top DCs, Great self healing, High HP... Its hard to justify giving us a good pet, especially since that's one of the special things about the newest class. Tossing some large inherit disadvantage onto it would balance everything out, but that would further divide the people who use the pets and those that do not.

Would I trade 10%-15% of my maximum Hp for an Artificer style Pale Master skeleton?
Absolutely.

Failedlegend
03-18-2012, 07:09 AM
Problem is, the True Permanent Pet thing is currently part of the Artificer Niche

Can't really use that as a reason to not make PM Pets useful since the hope is to eventually get Familiars (For Arcane Casters), Animal Companions (Druid and Ranger) and possibly even a Celestial Tiger (Paladin)...and of course we can't for get about Dinosaurs (Talentia Halfing)

Aesop
03-18-2012, 09:07 AM
I would not mind seeing a bonus to summoned critters based on DCs.

The thing is as with all summoned creatures they are not really here... lemme 'splain.

What you are doing when you Summon a Monster is reach out to another plane of existence and tap into the essence of a creature you are summoning. Then building a body on "this" plane for that essence to inhabit while it is doing its job for you.

If it was really here then we who summon would become pan dimensional fugitives due to depopulation of other realities. Heck some critters would be on the endangered species list. :D

So with that as a base for logic. The Conjuration DC represents how well you can create the body the essence inhabits.

here are a couple of DC based idea to improve the Summoned critters.

1. Bonus HP. DC * Spell Level bonus hp. ie DC 20, spell level 2 gets 40 bonus hp. DC 50, spell level 9 gets 450 bonus hp. It increases their survivability slightly throughout the levels.

2. Stat Bonus. +1 Str Dex and Con for every 10 points of DC... or something like that

3.Templates. This one is a little more complicated for implementation. As the DCs increase it opens up better versions of the specific critters. Let's say for example you summon a Dog (I know its a celestial dog but this is breaking the basics down a bit).

at DC 11 you summon just that a Dog.
at DC 15 you summon an Advanced Dog better hp, str, con ac, trip DC.
at DC 20 you summon a Celestial Dog that has some inherent resistance to Acid Cold and Electricity plus the Advanced templates bonuses as well
at DC 30 you advance the template and HD of the critter
etc...

These are only mock ups the exact DC differences and plateaus can be determined later.

This would create a difference between not only specialist but between Scroll and actual casting.

I also think that there should be a dismissal function.

and I'd like to see the PM Companion become more like the Arty companion as well.

Aesop

bigolbear
03-18-2012, 10:03 AM
What Id like to see done with summons.

1. Total summoning lvl = character lvl. (character lvl rather than caster lvl so it works with umd).
2. augment summon grants +4 to summoning lvl.
3. Each summon has an icon in your buff bar with a health indicator, clicking on that icon sets your 'hireling task bar' to that summon.
4. You can summon a total CR worth of summons equal to your summoning lvl, this means a typical caster could have 1 summon monster 9 or say 2 summon monster 4's.
5. The pale master skeletons enhancemnts each grant +6 to your summoning lvl, animal companions and arti dogs each grant +(your lvl) to your summoning lvl.
6. new enhancemnt for rangers to get a pet like artis.
7. new enhancemnt for all classes - requires augment summon, increases summons stats and summoning lvl.

This would mean that a pale master could have say 3 knights, and a mage - but could not afford an air ele, an arti would have their dog and a summon or 2 from scrols. All summons would be controleable, and be able to be dismissed or placed in passive mode. It would be easy to tell a summons health/mana at a glance.

I do think this realy needs to be looked at for the release of druid, because where a cleric is a sponteneous healer a druid is a sponteneous summoner, and summons in ddo as it stands are generaly quite weak.

Lag is of course as always a concern.