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Ungood
03-13-2012, 07:21 PM
Guild Alliance Idea:

Ever since pretty much this whole guild level thing was put in, the idea of some kind of alliance has been brewing, some people have mentioned means and methods to make it happen. And I for one would love to see an actual means for guilds to form alliances in the Game that function as a means for everyone’s mutual benefit.

So this is my idea.

When 2 or more guild leaders opt to “Form an Alliance” they simply have an “Invite to Alliance” option that they can use (like Invite to Group) maybe have it something you can mail as well, or what have you, but. (Make it a DDO store item, I don’t care, just make it happen that it works this way)


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/guildallianceidea-02.jpg



These options are only available to the Guild Leader and then only with another Guild Leader.

Once an Alliance is Formed, Each Guild in the Alliance contributes 50% of the current Guild renown to the Alliance Level.

In other words, if two (2) level fifty (lvl50) guilds were to form an alliance, the alliance would be roughly level 50. IE: They each contribute half their renown to the alliance or roughly 3,125,000 renown each. If they added in another level 50 guild to the alliance, it would become a level 57 Alliance

IE: 3,125,000+3,125,000+3,125,000 = 9,375,000 Renown, or a level 57 alliance.

The more guilds they add, the higher the alliance can go. When a guild leaves the alliance they take their contribution with them, if they join again, it gets added back. So yes, an alliance can go up and down in levels as guilds join and leave it. Such is the nature of alliances.

No one ever loses their renown, no one has to start again, none of that, each guild just simply applies half their renown to the overall renown of the Alliance as a whole.

The Leader of the Alliance is the only person that can Add or Remove Guilds from the Alliance.



http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/guildallianceidea-03.jpg




So next question: What are the benefits of an Alliance?

Buffs! Higher level Alliance means access to better Buffs!



But first Lets toss out a new idea: Persistent Buffs.

That’s right. No more time limits. No more going away on death, no more running around a ship for 20 min getting buffs before heading off to the quest.

When you join a guild, you are surrounded by the aura of their prestige and legendary status and thus inspired to greater acts of heroics. Or some such, explain it anyway you want, the end result is, being a part of a guild would bestow the Guild Buffs”, and players would no longer need to run around a buff barge picking all the buffs.

Now, what buffs a guild could offer would be contingent upon their alliance level or guild level. Whichever was higher.

Sounds great right? So how do we pay for that?

Great question! As opposed to some poor sod needing to shell out 100K plat every month to keep the buff barge up to date, each Guild Buff would come with a Renown Cost. Right, so now we gotta pay that on top of decay? NO!


Guild Decay would go away, and in its place would be Buff Costs, each buff a guild wanted to add would cost them a set number of renown multiplied by their active members each day. Like So!



http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/guildallianceidea.jpg


Case in Point, one of the level 50 guilds now in a Level 57 Alliance (as above)is a 6 man guild, and wants
The +2 Charisma Buff added to their Guild Members. So, they Have to pay: Renown Cost of Shrine x Active Members each Day.

Thus a guild can add as much or as little decay as they think they can handle, if several members opt to take a week off or what have you, they can opt to lessen the buffs to reduce cost, if they have hit a plateau and want to press on, they opt to lessen their buffs, if they are gaining quite nicely and pushing ahead well, they opt to add more buffs to their list as a reward for their members efforts.

The idea is that by depending on their guild Power, the members of the guild are a little “less heroic”, and thus cost the guild renown overall.

Now, since all buffs would be persist buffs, what happens to our precious buff barges! They Become AWESOME Hang outs!

Have it so Guild Ships offer amenities, IE: Banks, Auctioneers, Inn, as well as ALL the crafting altars, yes, From Dreamforge Altar to the Cannith decon altar, have it so all altars are available on the ship. In fact, do not even use new Graphics, just go with the old stuff, have the Stat Shrines Totem heads make up the Bound and Unbound Altars for Cannith Crafting. But basically have the ships turn into little floating cities with all the amenities that players might want. What they can get and how big their flying city is, however would be contingent upon their GUILD level. So the basics would not change, just what the items on the ship are would change.

Such is my idea.

Silverwren
03-14-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm trying to think of anything that might be wrong with your suggestion................

It's........almost brilliant. It would replace renown decay by using renown as a currency to buy the buffs. Each guild would benefit from better and more numerous buffs, as well as now having room for different amenities.

I assume that renown would also be used to purchase the altars, banks, mailboxes, etc etc?

I also assume that the airship portals would only take you to your guilds ship, not any of the other guilds in the alliance?

I question the Persistent Buffs however. I think they should still be removed upon death. To re-buff simply visit your ship and all the available buffs are cast upon you when you step onboard, saving time.

The practice dummy should still have to be beat upon to get it's buff though.

brightfang
03-14-2012, 12:44 PM
/signed. I always wanted to join a raiding guild but never wanted to leave the one I lead.

biggin
03-14-2012, 12:47 PM
I wish they had implemented this idea from the start. The problem as I see it is this: everyone would be 100 (or 93) in a very short time. With no decay, or at least decay you could control, you would top out the renown pretty fast.

I'm all for anything that brings players together. The biggest asset long term players have over newer players isn't gear or plat......it's each other. Something that would promote the social aspect of the game would be a great tool. However, at this point at least, I believe they need to leave the system they have in place. Possibly having some sort of benefit for a Guild Alliance would be nice, but I don't think any guild is going to give up half of their renown to join with a lower ranked guild. Not only that, but now people will start the finger pointing at other guikls about who isn't pulling their weight, etc.

Possibly a crafting hall with all altars that is only accesible to guilds in an alliance perhaps? It would have that same quality of social interaction (and constant crafting, TR, etc discussions) but not effect our current system with some goals that have to be met. At least one toon per account has to have (x) amount of favor or something like that.

Ungood
03-14-2012, 01:03 PM
I'm trying to think of anything that might be wrong with your suggestion................

It's........almost brilliant. Thanks! :D


It would replace renown decay by using renown as a currency to buy the buffs. Each guild would benefit from better and more numerous buffs, as well as now having room for different amenities.

That was one of the things I was hoping to accomplish was to have a reason or a purpose behind renown decay other then some arbitrary mechanic to stall guilds from gaining levels.


I assume that renown would also be used to purchase the altars, banks, mailboxes, etc etc?

I honestly had not thought about that too much. I just assumed that putting hook points on the ship would remain unchanged, but allowing guilds to get hook points via Renown/Plat/TP would be an idea as well, especially for some guilds that might feel that it would be easier to just pay Renown then to pay plat for renewable amenities.

That is very open to me at this point, so anything would be acceptable.


I also assume that the airship portals would only take you to your guilds ship, not any of the other guilds in the alliance?

Yes, the basics of how ships work would not change, which means you can only go to your ship but could be invited to other ships, IE: To use altars, or what have you.


I question the Persistent Buffs however. I think they should still be removed upon death. To re-buff simply visit your ship and all the available buffs are cast upon you when you step onboard, saving time.

Now that you mention it, losing the ships buffs upon death in a quest would be a great way to replace the feeling of "Death meaning something" to a players again, that dying is not just -10% exp for the group but also would weaken the character for the remainder of the quest.

Then as you said, have their ship buffs come back when they went into town or to their ship.


The practice dummy should still have to be beat upon to get it's buff though.

I personally have mixed feelings about that dummy. I think it would remain, just for the fun of beating it down, Maybe a Nice DPS challenge type of thing.

Personally I would love to see "Training" dummies that you could train with, like Harry Dummies, so that you could see how well a group could beat down harry, or the Abbot, or see if your beater was up to snuff.

Can you imagine how awesome it would be go to a ship and see a line of raid bosses on the deck.

There are all kinds of ideas that could be built off this, which I would enjoy, and I hope others would as well.

Silverwren
03-14-2012, 03:39 PM
I wish they had implemented this idea from the start. The problem as I see it is this: everyone would be 100 (or 93) in a very short time. With no decay, or at least decay you could control, you would top out the renown pretty fast.

Not as fast as you might think. Remember, you would have to use renown to purchase every amenity that goes on an airship, and they have to be repurchased when they expire. If the price were to scale depending on the level of the guild this could serve as a renown sink, which insures that guild members still would need to gather renown, even at level 100.

Which raises a question: What happens when someone leaves a guild under this system? Do they still take some renown with them?

Ungood
03-14-2012, 04:28 PM
I don't think any guild is going to give up half of their renown to join with a lower ranked guild.

I would like to mention this again, no one would give up anything to be in an Alliance, all renown stays with the individual guilds. Half a Guilds Total renown is applied passively (They do not give it up) to the total of the alliance.


Not as fast as you might think. Remember, you would have to use renown to purchase every amenity that goes on an airship, and they have to be repurchased when they expire. If the price were to scale depending on the level of the guild this could serve as a renown sink, which insures that guild members still would need to gather renown, even at level 100.

The more you mention this, the more sense it makes that all amenities would be given a daily renown cost, and would auto update, until they were changed/removed by an officer or guild leader.

This would save officers a great deal of time as they would not need to worry about when an amenity was due and would be a viable substitute for the role that renown decay plays right now.


Which raises a question: What happens when someone leaves a guild under this system? Do they still take some renown with them?

That is a very good question. I have not thought too much about that in regards to an alliance, I suppose a far as the inner workings of the individual guilds, for this topic, we will assume nothing changes.

biggin
03-14-2012, 05:53 PM
Not as fast as you might think. Remember, you would have to use renown to purchase every amenity that goes on an airship, and they have to be repurchased when they expire. If the price were to scale depending on the level of the guild this could serve as a renown sink, which insures that guild members still would need to gather renown, even at level 100.

Which raises a question: What happens when someone leaves a guild under this system? Do they still take some renown with them?

I understand his point (somewhat). That's why I said you could control your own decay. Here's what I'm thinking:

So under this new system, renown is decayed through amenities, correct? My current guild ship has roughly 20 hook points. I tell the GA, "Hey guys, you know what? All the extra crafting, mailboxes, bankers etc aren't necessary. All we are keeping are the resists and XP shrine. They get the most use and we can just do without the rest until we get to Guild Alliance level 100."

By the numbers if the decay would remain the same for having all buffs, then only having 30% of the available buffs means you gain back that 70% of renown that the system decay has in place now. When your looking at getting up to 50k or more a day at higher levels of decay, that adds up quick, 1 mil for every 20 days at the least. I'm not saying that every guild would automatically hit 100 in a week, but instead of only having a handful of capped guilds we would have entire groups of them.

Like I said, I'm definitely not against some sort of GA buff or group housing (bye-bye ship, hello castles!), but as far as tinkering with the renown system, I just can't get behind it. Possibly getting +1 loot bonuses when a certain number of the alliance are on (promotes gameplay, good for Turbine), some sort of group buff when at least one member of each guild is in a party together (promotes a bit of diversity) or some other mechanic to their benefit. Great idea, I just think it's a bad idea to revamp the renown system at this point. Just doesn't seem broke to me so no point in fixing it.

Ungood
03-14-2012, 06:37 PM
So under this new system, renown is decayed through amenities, correct? My current guild ship has roughly 20 hook points. I tell the GA, "Hey guys, you know what? All the extra crafting, mailboxes, bankers etc aren't necessary. All we are keeping are the resists and XP shrine. They get the most use and we can just do without the rest until we get to Guild Alliance level 100."


I understand his point (somewhat). That's why I said you could control your own decay. Here's what I'm thinking:

So under this new system, renown is decayed through amenities, correct? My current guild ship has roughly 20 hook points. I tell the GA, "Hey guys, you know what? All the extra crafting, mailboxes, bankers etc aren't necessary. All we are keeping are the resists and XP shrine. They get the most use and we can just do without the rest until we get to Guild Alliance level 100."

Yes. You hit the nail on the head as a very important part of this new revision.

In fact, that is an integral part of how this system works.

There is no denying that this would allow Guilds to gain levels quicker at the sacrifice of having buffs and other amenities.

How often that would actually happen?

Well, when I was rolling the idea around in my head, I had worries about how easy it would be for the guild leader to abuse this, and simply offer no buffs at the demand of gaining levels for the guilds, so I brought this idea up to my guild mates, and the first thing, and I mean that, the very first thing anyone said was, "That's a god idea but I'd want the +2 Int Shrine for my wizard"

:rolleyes:

Well, needless to say my mind was set at what level of abuse would erupt from this plan, as members of a guild tend to not like to have to farm renown to start with, to also be denied buffs and boons in the process I would imagine would result in exodus of mutiny.

So players themselves become the check and balance in this system.

But, in all honesty, a guild leader could say "We are not going get many buffs" till we get to level 100 and might get some players backing this idea, but with the Alliance idea in full swing, the question becomes what good is a stingy level 100 guild if players could get the same or better buffs, more amenities, and a relaxed environment in a level 50 guild that was part of a larger Alliance?

In many ways it allows larger, smaller, casual and moderate, and even hard core guilds to relax a great deal, and not worry about being level 100. It also allows Hard Core guilds to maintain access to the top tier buffs and gives them something for their efforts, no longer is it 3000 Renown per player for no other purpose other then grind for the sake of grind.

For example, if a guild was struggling at level 73 in today's system, in my system they could opt to just stay there start packing on the buffs, making their guild far more attractive to other players, and maintain a happy equilibrium, as opposed to fighting against an arbitrary renown decay deigned to attrition them. If people took vacations or they start to loose renown they can remove buffs to maintain a status-quo.

Phemt81
03-14-2012, 07:01 PM
Cool!

It would spice up things for level 100 guilds and add a new feature.

On the other hande, i can't see it as a realistic proposal if we consider the buff persistance... even if it would be awesome!
Maybe 2 hours instead of 1, and maybe new "epic alliance buffs" to have new +3 shrines (1 hour).

Only one question: what is the other side of the coin? I mean, it seems just too good for me, maybe i skipped some important statement above :)

+1 for the idea.

Ungood
03-14-2012, 07:10 PM
Only one question: what is the other side of the coin? I mean, it seems just too good for me, maybe i skipped some important statement above :)


I proposed this with the hope that everyone would walk away with a better way to enjoy the game more.

Maybe, I guess, make the catch that we need to buy an Alliance Charter or something, if we need a down side. :p

Phemt81
03-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Maybe, I guess, make the catch that we need to buy an Alliance Charter or something, if we need a down side. :p

http://youtu.be/JQCP85FngzE

Silverwren
03-14-2012, 08:57 PM
So under this new system, renown is decayed through amenities, correct? My current guild ship has roughly 20 hook points. I tell the GA, "Hey guys, you know what? All the extra crafting, mailboxes, bankers etc aren't necessary. All we are keeping are the resists and XP shrine. They get the most use and we can just do without the rest until we get to Guild Alliance level 100".

Mmmmm, not quite, if I understand the suggestion properly.

Renown is decayed through the purchase of ALL ship amenities. You wont need to place any buff shrines. All buffs are given to you the moment you step onboard. This frees up space for other amenities like mailboxes, bars, altars, etc.

Have I got that correct, Ungood?

HungarianRhapsody
03-14-2012, 09:18 PM
The first issue that I see with the alliance is that there is a direct game-mechanic advantage to being in the largest alliance possible and no downside for adding new members to your alliance or to joining the biggest alliance possible.

I expect that nearly every guild on each server would immediately join together into one superalliance that would only exist to provide the maximum possible amount of guild alliance renown because every guild added only adds to the total renown of the full alliance.

Ungood
03-15-2012, 06:59 AM
Mmmmm, not quite, if I understand the suggestion properly.

Renown is decayed through the purchase of ALL ship amenities. You wont need to place any buff shrines. All buffs are given to you the moment you step onboard. This frees up space for other amenities like mailboxes, bars, altars, etc.

Have I got that correct, Ungood?

You are dead on correct.

biggin
03-15-2012, 09:27 AM
You are dead on correct.

Right, but unless you are forced to purchase amenities you still control your decay. If a lvl 85 Alliance has to take all resistances, shrines, buffs, etc for lvl 85 I can see it. If not then an alliance would control it's own decay. It doesn't matter if there are actual totems, if you get the buffs when you board the ship or have to /bow to the Gygax memorial. Unless you are given certain buffs at certain levels whether you like it or not the example I gave holds true.

And I just want to say under the current system I actually hurt my guild. I go offshore for days or weeks at a time and my guild has to eat my decay. Under this new system we would greatly benefit as we are friends with every top guild on our server (now if we would align with them or they with us is another story). I just don't want to see everything that is considered 'top of the line' (like eMari chain, eSoS, Guild level 100, etc) become trivialized.

Ungood
03-15-2012, 01:29 PM
Right, but unless you are forced to purchase amenities you still control your decay.

Most players feel that being in more control of their guild, build, and game "life", as a good thing.


And I just want to say under the current system I actually hurt my guild. I go offshore for days or weeks at a time and my guild has to eat my decay.

Do not fret, they would still have to "eat" your decay under the new system, so your burden upon them, that seems to be important to you, would not go away. If that was your worry.


Under this new system we would greatly benefit as we are friends with every top guild on our server (now if we would align with them or they with us is another story). I just don't want to see everything that is considered 'top of the line' (like eMari chain, eSoS, Guild level 100, etc) become trivialized.

Getting access to a high level to top tier guild for you would as small matter of being in the group with your friends or even just sending them a tell, am I right?

Your access those Buffs is then nothing more then them showing a willingness to share their success with you by inviting you to their ship. Right?

So think of it this way, if they wanted to share their success with you and open the door to better guild buffs, they would invite you into their Alliance.

So, If anything, the Alliance idea as I have put it out does the exact opposite of trivializing a guilds accomplishment, especially a top tier guild, it ten folds it, because it allows them to share it.

Krago
03-15-2012, 03:02 PM
The Guild Alliance idea is too exploitable because of the ease it would be to get lvl 100. You just need more guilds to join the alliance and get half their renown to get access to the top tier buffs.

Case in point, the same 6 man guild lvl 50 guild joins alliance and gets access to the perma buffs. Once buffed, leaves alliance to avoid renown decay due to access to buffs. Joins again when they need to reapply buffs should they wear off due to some other mechanic.

Novel idea but it needs some refinement.

Ungood
03-15-2012, 03:30 PM
The Guild Alliance idea is too exploitable because of the ease it would be to get lvl 100. You just need more guilds to join the alliance and get half their renown to get access to the top tier buffs.

Case in point, the same 6 man guild lvl 50 guild joins alliance and gets access to the perma buffs. Once buffed, leaves alliance to avoid renown decay due to access to buffs. Joins again when they need to reapply buffs should they wear off due to some other mechanic.

Novel idea but it needs some refinement.

Already addressed in the OP and a few more times in the following threads, but, I'll say it again.

If a guild leaves an Alliance they lose all the benefits of being in the Alliance, which would includes ALL the Alliance levels which gave them access to higher level buffs, with renewal costs on a daily basis.

So not only would they lose the buffs beyond their guild level upon leaving the Alliance, they would end up still paying the Renown cost of activating them even if they did not last the full day, Ergo, nothing can be exploited in that front.

On top of that, getting into (or back into) an Alliance is contingent upon the Alliance Leader accepting them back, and well, we all know how well trying to abuse an Alliance would go over.

Keep in mind that it is the Alliance that might get to be level 100, not necessarily any of the Guilds within it.

Also note, again, that the Alliance only determines what persistent buffs can be obtained. Each Guild is still limited by their own private levels in regards to what ship and ship amenities they can get.

So there is no way to abuse this system. At least, not in the way you mentioned it.

Cauthey
03-15-2012, 03:46 PM
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z166/Ungood_Images/guildallianceidea-03.jpg



What, no "Six Demon Bag" in your Alliance list? It even fits with what you were trying to do with the scheme!! Where's the love?! *cry*

Still have to +1 you anyway. I'm not sure I like the power creep, but I would welcome some method for managing intra-guild relations.

Krago
03-15-2012, 08:39 PM
Already addressed in the OP and a few more times in the following threads, but, I'll say it again.

If a guild leaves an Alliance they lose all the benefits of being in the Alliance, which would includes ALL the Alliance levels which gave them access to higher level buffs, with renewal costs on a daily basis.

So not only would they lose the buffs beyond their guild level upon leaving the Alliance, they would end up still paying the Renown cost of activating them even if they did not last the full day, Ergo, nothing can be exploited in that front.

On top of that, getting into (or back into) an Alliance is contingent upon the Alliance Leader accepting them back, and well, we all know how well trying to abuse an Alliance would go over.

Keep in mind that it is the Alliance that might get to be level 100, not necessarily any of the Guilds within it.

Also note, again, that the Alliance only determines what persistent buffs can be obtained. Each Guild is still limited by their own private levels in regards to what ship and ship amenities they can get.

So there is no way to abuse this system. At least, not in the way you mentioned it.


Again, this is a novel idea that lends itself to trying to unlock the higher level buffs by lower lvl guilds. I fail to see how the example given is not an abuse of a well intended system. This system benefits the lower level guilds more than the higher lvl guilds, just like the renown system we have today.

I really like the idea that renown decay is based upon the number and type of amenities that are present on the ship. This would greatly help guilds gain higher levels.

Ungood
03-15-2012, 08:40 PM
What, no "Six Demon Bag" in your Alliance list? It even fits with what you were trying to do with the scheme!! Where's the love?! *cry*

But I put your guild in.. it at the bottom.. a gimp in a *runs way laughing*


I'm not sure I like the power creep, but I would welcome some method for managing intra-guild relations.

The good side is, the Creep would not be any greater then what is already in the game as it is.

Ungood
03-15-2012, 08:58 PM
I fail to see how the example given is not an abuse of a well intended system.

Because the system as proposed prevents the example you gave from actually Happening.

Added: But, I'll explain it again:Perhaps I was not clear.

Anytime a Guild Selects a Persistent Buff, Regardless if they are in an Alliance or not, they will pay it's Renown Fee at the time they initiate it, and every day thereafter until they cancel that Buff. There is no way to avoid or bypass this fee and it will only cease when the Buff is canceled.


I really like the idea that renown decay is based upon the number and type of amenities that are present on the ship. This would greatly help guilds gain higher levels. Having renown loss actually mean something is better then just some arbitrary mechanic implemented to enforce grind for the sake of grind.

Silverwren
03-16-2012, 07:51 AM
Anytime a Guild Selects a Persistent Buff, Regardless if they are in an Alliance or not, they will pay it's Renown Fee at the time they initiate it, and every day thereafter until they cancel that Buff. There is no way to avoid or bypass this fee and it will only cease when the Buff is canceled.

Having renown loss actually mean something is better then just some arbitrary mechanic implemented to enforce grind for the sake of grind.

Yup. A guild is in control of it's own destiny.

If a guild (not an alliance) wants to level quickly, then don't buy any amenities or buffs. You'll never lose any renown and all the renown gathered will go directly into leveling. Of course this will make for a big, empty ship, and with no buffs or amenities no one will want to even be in your guild.

On the flip side if a guild wants amenities and buffs it will have to buy them with renown, which would actually mean something. If you want your guild to have a mailbox or a +2 INT buff then maybe you aught to grab that Impressive Trophy instead of that vendor trash that you probably don't need anyway.

Ah! The freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I am SO liking this idea!

As a side note: I don't foresee any guild rocketing up to level 100 in a week. The cost for amenities and buffs could scale based on guild level. Tiny guilds wouldn't pay too much but the larger guilds would pay the most, keeping everyone honest.

Ungood
03-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Yup. A guild is in control of it's own destiny.

If a guild (not an alliance) wants to level quickly, then don't buy any amenities or buffs. You'll never lose any renown and all the renown gathered will go directly into leveling. Of course this will make for a big, empty ship, and with no buffs or amenities no one will want to even be in your guild.

On the flip side if a guild wants amenities and buffs it will have to buy them with renown, which would actually mean something. If you want your guild to have a mailbox or a +2 INT buff then maybe you aught to grab that Impressive Trophy instead of that vendor trash that you probably don't need anyway.

Ah! The freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. I am SO liking this idea!

Exactly!

If we are going to have to pay renown, it should mean something!

Also, with the revision to how buffs would work, a guild can't opt to remove all their own buffs and use another guilds buffs as an easy ride up. If a guild or it's members want buffs, they have to pay for it, they can no longer ride the coattails of a larger guild via ship invites for buffs.

I am not worried about a guild rocketing up, I don't foresee that, because you pointed out, guilds would stand to lose too much by alienating their members if they did not provide buffs and amenities.

Krago
03-16-2012, 09:35 AM
Because the system as proposed prevents the example you gave from actually Happening.

Added: But, I'll explain it again:Perhaps I was not clear.

Anytime a Guild Selects a Persistent Buff, Regardless if they are in an Alliance or not, they will pay it's Renown Fee at the time they initiate it, and every day thereafter until they cancel that Buff. There is no way to avoid or bypass this fee and it will only cease when the Buff is canceled.

Having renown loss actually mean something is better then just some arbitrary mechanic implemented to enforce grind for the sake of grind.

The persistent buffs are removed when either the guild leaves the alliance, or the guild chooses to not pay upkeep for that buff? I was misunderstanding as to when the buffs would be removed.

How is the alliance leader selected when the alliance is first created?
Similar to how the guild leader is selected, whomever starts the alliance and uses TP to buy the charter?
Should there be any penalties applied to guilds for alliance hopping? Similar to players renown when joining other guilds?

sebastianosmith
03-16-2012, 10:13 AM
Anytime a Guild Selects a Persistent Buff, Regardless if they are in an Alliance or not, they will pay it's Renown Fee at the time they initiate it, and every day thereafter until they cancel that Buff. There is no way to avoid or bypass this fee and it will only cease when the Buff is canceled.

Having renown loss actually mean something is better then just some arbitrary mechanic implemented to enforce grind for the sake of grind.

I'd like to point out one thing about trading renown for buffs - It makes no sense in the game world. Renown is social currency, not hard specie. The two are not entirely interchangeable. As guilds become more well known, more doors are opened and relationships forged. Your idea neglects this crucial point by turning guilds into organizations which expect the suppliers of buffing equipment to simply hand over their merchandise because of how awe inspiring a guild might be. And to let a guild keep said equipment based on... what? Appreciation for a job well done? Those merchants and artisans have mouths to feed. They can't buy bread with a bucket full of the warm fuzzies about some guild.

While this may seem to be more RPing in aspect, it is the underpinning of the guild system as designed even if that is not terribly apparent at first glance. Any change should somehow fit logically into the world. The current mechanics are far from arbitrary when given a little thought.

Ungood
03-16-2012, 11:37 AM
I'd like to point out one thing about trading renown for buffs - It makes no sense in the game world.

Sure it does, when people are part of something greater then themselves they are inspired to greater acts of heroics.

However, depending on the prestige of their guild also lessens each persons individual accomplishment hence the Renown Cost for each aura benefit.

It makes perfect sense when you look it.


The current mechanics are far from arbitrary when given a little thought.Grind for the sake of Grind that is currently in the game is the Pinnacle of what Arbitrary Attrition is.


How is the alliance leader selected when the alliance is first created?

I'll expound upon that, as I was brief in the OP regarding this: An Alliance is a Group of Peers, formed Guild Leader to Guild Leader, requiring no less then 2 guild leaders to form an Alliance (You can't have a Solo Alliance)

Thus the Guild leader that does the Inviting is the Leader of the Alliance, just like if they formed a group.

Leadership is Passed down like a Group, Oldest first. So if the current Alliance leader left the Alliance or Lost their Guild leadership for any reason, the Leader of the Next Oldest guild in the Alliance would take over.


Similar to how the guild leader is selected, whomever starts the alliance and uses TP to buy the charter?If a Charter needs to be bought, (and it would make sense for Turbine to make it so a charter would need to be bought) then it would have to be All or Nothing, IE: Everyone has a Charter or no one does.

If they need to bought, then no one could lay claim that they bought the Charter and thus the Alliance is theirs, everyone had to buy one.

It would also stop spam invites, as anyone that did not want to be part of an alliance could simply not buy a charter and any invite would get auto declined.

Also, with this method, no one could become an Alliance Leader without Paying for a Charter, no making an alliance then passing it off to a friend for free.

This would keep an Alliance a group of Peers.


Should there be any penalties applied to guilds for alliance hopping? Similar to players renown when joining other guilds?None, beyond losing access to any buffs that the Alliance Levels gave them access to.

IE: If they were a 50th level Guild in a 76th level Alliance and they left, they would immediately lose access to any buffs beyond level 50. This might result in some of the buffs they had paid the cost of that day going away instantly.

sebastianosmith
03-16-2012, 12:33 PM
Sure it does, when people are part of something greater then themselves they are inspired to greater acts of heroics.

However, depending on the prestige of their guild also lessens each persons individual accomplishment hence the Renown Cost for each aura benefit.

It makes perfect sense when you look it.

I can only assume from your response that you didn't actually read my post past the first sentence.

Sure, some people get satisfaction from being a part of something greater. Such association may even inspire an individual to achieve heroic things. But, I seriously doubt that the makers and purveyors of shrines, alters and other such buffing devices are going to hand out their wares to some impassioned adventurer based on a "I'm in a really, really wicked guild and we really, really need it" line of credit.

The idea of trading renown for buffing devices works provided there is no game context whatsoever upon which to pin it. It becomes a mere mechanic, without relation to anything in the game other than a desire to sport a rich, creamy layer of awesome sauce.

Ungood
03-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Sure, some people get satisfaction from being a part of something greater. Such association may even inspire an individual to achieve heroic things. But, I seriously doubt that the makers and purveyors of shrines, alters and other such buffing devices are going to hand out their wares to some impassioned adventurer based on a "I'm in a really, really wicked guild and we really, really need it" line of credit.

Ah I see you missed the part in the OP about players running around clicking shrines of goodies on massive buff barges going away, and in their place would be a streamlined persistent aura that would surround the player.


The idea of trading renown for buffing devices works provided there is no game context whatsoever upon which to pin it. It becomes a mere mechanic, without relation to anything in the game other than a desire to sport a rich, creamy layer of awesome sauce.

Ah I see, you need an RP motive, well, the story is you see, the captain (and sometimes first mate) used to have gambling problems, so they got to know all the good fencers in Stormreach, and in doing so they knows the ins and outs of being able to trade in those copper/silver/gold/platinum trophies we all collect (and obviously give to him) for plat-cash to pay for the amenities like they did in Knights Tale, and from time to time with the cut they take off the top, support their gambling problems.:D

Silverwren
03-16-2012, 04:01 PM
The idea of trading renown for buffing devices works provided there is no game context whatsoever upon which to pin it. It becomes a mere mechanic, without relation to anything in the game other than a desire to sport a rich, creamy layer of awesome sauce.

MMMMMMM! Awesome sauce!!! *smack* *smack* YUM! :p

You do realize this is a game, right? A world in which mindflayers, wizards, minotaurs and magic live and co-mingle? Not everything requires game context, and because it's all a fantasy to begin with you can do anything you want, as long as your willing to spend the time programing it.

Lighten up, Francice! :D

Jay203
03-16-2012, 08:26 PM
so... let's assume a lower lvl guild (say... lvl 10) allied with a lvl 80 guild
half of the renown from lvl 80 is added to lvl 10 guild and vice versa

now let's assume that the lvl 80 guild does whatever it wants and can sustain the renown without any problem
now the problem. assuming the lvl 10 guild start using more guild stuff than it is able to sustain, its renown constantly go down. however, it would never reach 0 due to the temporary renown from the lvl 80 due to alliance...

of course, this is under the assumption that the decay shouldn't effect your alliance partners directly...

Quetzacoala
03-16-2012, 08:45 PM
This is an absolutely brilliant idea; however, what is stopping every guild on the server from joining one alliance to gain the benefits this way?

Also, the point was brought up that some guilds may sacrifice amenities for faster leveling... however, what benefits do higher guild levels provide other than amenities? Why bother reaching high levels without them?

Ungood
03-16-2012, 09:04 PM
so... let's assume a lower lvl guild (say... lvl 10) allied with a lvl 80 guild
half of the renown from lvl 80 is added to lvl 10 guild and vice versa

now let's assume that the lvl 80 guild does whatever it wants and can sustain the renown without any problem
now the problem. assuming the lvl 10 guild start using more guild stuff than it is able to sustain, its renown constantly go down. however, it would never reach 0 due to the temporary renown from the lvl 80 due to alliance...

of course, this is under the assumption that the decay shouldn't effect your alliance partners directly...

I would like to say again, a Guild does not contribute half it's renown, it attributes half it's renown to the overall Alliance level.

So no guild will be able to siphon off the alliance, at best it will just not contribute much.

But this is a good question, what happens when/if a guild starts to loose renown. I suppose a fail safe would need to be put in, to prevent a guild from actually dropping levels to maintain buffs, IE: If they go below what they started the day off with, then the Buffs Cancel to prevent further loss. IE: If a Guild Started the day at say 8,875,986 Renown, and at the end of the day when the cost for buffs hit they would go below that Number, the Buffs would go away as opposed to renewing. This would stop a guild from loosing levels and stuff if members went Awol, or things like that.

Great question, I had not really thought of that.


This is an absolutely brilliant idea; however, what is stopping every guild on the server from joining one alliance to gain the benefits this way?

Beyond people just being people? Nothing I suppose. MOst checks and balances of this system come from the players, not the game itself, as I believe things should be.

However, a 1000 Guild limit might be part of the mechanics of the game tho, but I have no no idea on that.


Also, the point was brought up that some guilds may sacrifice amenities for faster leveling... however, what benefits do higher guild levels provide other than amenities? Why bother reaching high levels without them?

All Amenities would be in two groups:

The Ship and Ship Associated Amenities (Altars, Mail Box, Crafting Stations, Bank, Plains caller, Navigator, etc, etc) which would be contingent upon the Guild Level alone.

Persistent Buffs which would be contingent upon the Alliance Level or Guild Level, whichever was higher.

So Guild Levels would still have their place in the game as a whole and to guilds that want the bigger better things like Auction house, Plains Caller, Dreaming Dark Crafting station, maybe a LoB Practice Dummy :D

rosedarkthorn
04-02-2014, 10:16 PM
I'd love for something like this to be implemented in the game. My husband made our guild before we had any friends in the game, and we put so much work into it, we don't want to leave to join someone else's and let it all go to waste. It would also help smaller guilds have more options for questing, considering the lack of decent lfm's. Smaller guild like ours don't have access to private guild runs, or guild channels, etc.

TrinityTurtle
04-03-2014, 07:13 AM
I think instead of messing with the buffs I would rather just see an alliance channel added in, so that the alliance doesn't have to use up one of people's only four user channels. The biggest complaints on the forum that I see over and over is ZOMG no one is posting lfms (and I can't do it because *insert reason here*) and better than buffs, they would have access to a larger pool of players.

dydzio0614
04-04-2014, 01:31 PM
With some adjustment to the buff system this idea might be really good, introducing pvp guild wars would be interesting thing too (no, i am not pvp fanboy, it would be just an interesting addition to the game)

Sebastrd
04-08-2014, 05:09 PM
/signed. I always wanted to join a raiding guild but never wanted to leave the one I lead.

Same here. I love this idea, and I've hoped for something similar in the past.