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smithtj3
03-12-2012, 04:34 AM
My main is Shimadzu a once TR'd pure Elven AA. I've been seeing posts and hearing discussion in game of the monk/ranger cross class builds that take advantage of the 10K stars. I think I may well want to TR Shimadzu into such a build sometime in the near future but would like some advice on this kind of build before I commit to it. I'm trying to make something that doesn't lose anything over what I currently have (467HP/29Str/41Dex Elven AA) and can incorporate the majority of the gear I all ready have without requiring any further gear grinding just to function. Here is what I have put together so far:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Shimadzu MonkAA
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(2 Fighter \ 12 Monk \ 6 Ranger)
Hit Points: 288
Spell Points: 260
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 19
Will: 17

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 12 14 14
Dexterity 16 19 19
Constitution 13 16 16
Intelligence 9 12 12
Wisdom 18 25 25
Charisma 8 10 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 7 19 19
Bluff -1 0 0
Concentration 5 18 18
Diplomacy -1 0 0
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -1 0 0
Heal 4 7 7
Hide 3 16 16
Intimidate -1 0 0
Jump 1 10 10
Listen 4 7 9
Move Silently 3 16 16
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 1 1
Search -1 1 3
Spot 4 19 21
Swim 1 2 2
Tumble 7 19 19
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall


Level 5 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body


Level 6 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Zen Archery


Level 7 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion


Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Curse of the Void
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
Feat: (Automatic) Moment of Clarity


Level 11 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step


Level 13 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Aberration
Feat: (Automatic) Bow Strength
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Wild Empathy


Level 14 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 15 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Automatic) Diehard


Level 16 (Ranger)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)


Level 17 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 18 (Ranger)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Manyshot


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precise Shot
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Precise Shot




Current Gear:

Minos Legens
TOD AA Set
Blood Stone
GS HP Cloak
Greater False Life Belt
Ring of the Ravager
Raven's Eye Set
Fabricator's Bracers
Madstone Boots
Black Dragonhide Armor/Icy Raiment
GS Lit2 Rapiers/GS Lit2 Bow


I'm curious too about what the noticeable differences will be as a result of dropping to dex down from 41 to 34 and having a 34 wisdom instead. I know monks get an armor bonus based off the wisdom modifier but I don't know how it's calculated. I also know that the wisdom modifier determines the number of arrows for 10k but I'm not sure what 34 will get me.

wax_on_wax_off
03-12-2012, 06:41 AM
This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=354668) is my take on a 10k stars archer.

Suggestions:
1. Ignore dexterity as much as possible (still need 19 for IPS). Wisdom should be primary stat with strength secondary.

That's it really. I thinking of swapping the 2 fighter levels for artificer which will cost 1 feat (as no need to take mental toughness) but bring a lot in terms of utility and versatility.

smithtj3
03-12-2012, 12:40 PM
This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=354668) is my take on a 10k stars archer.

Suggestions:
1. Ignore dexterity as much as possible (still need 19 for IPS). Wisdom should be primary stat with strength secondary.

That's it really. I thinking of swapping the 2 fighter levels for artificer which will cost 1 feat (as no need to take mental toughness) but bring a lot in terms of utility and versatility.

Regarding Dex, I assumed as much. I'll see if I can't rework it so that I don't have to put that single point into it at level 4. As for mental toughness, isn't it required it qualify for the AA PrE? I don't own artificer currently but I do see the advantages it would bring in terms of traps and some slight improvements to ranged damage (granted, it's only two levels). What do you think of two rogue levels?

wax_on_wax_off
03-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Regarding Dex, I assumed as much. I'll see if I can't rework it so that I don't have to put that single point into it at level 4. As for mental toughness, isn't it required it qualify for the AA PrE? I don't own artificer currently but I do see the advantages it would bring in terms of traps and some slight improvements to ranged damage (granted, it's only two levels). What do you think of two rogue levels?

From DDOwiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Elf_Arcane_Archer_enhancements):
Requires One of: Bard Energy of the Music I, Elven Arcanum I, Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I , Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Artificer Energy of Creation I, Mental Toughness, Past Life: Arcane Prodigy

The only way that you can avoid putting a point into dex at some stage is with a +3 dex tome, starting with 17 or 11 ranger levels to get IPS.

Halfelf is vastly superior for this build.

Artificer isn't so much about damage and more about utility. Maximum ranks in UMD combined with Artificer scroll mastery (+1 caster level, +2 UMD with scrolls), Wand and Scroll Mastery I (+30% with wands and scrolls) and monk and human healing amp will let you take care if your own and even other people's healing in a lot of content. Trap Skills are possible (but need 12-14 starting int and lots of gear). The buffs are useful.

Rogue can work but then you lose 2 feats compared to fighter instead of 1.

I'd suggest to start with 16 wisdom, 18 seems excessive (though it is good).

Kinerd
03-12-2012, 05:18 PM
The big difference is that with a traditional AA, you have Manyshot for 20 seconds and then either melee or poor ranged for 100 seconds. With a monkcher, you have Manyshot for 20 seconds, 10k for 60 seconds, and melee or poor ranged for only 40 seconds.

Another difference is your spike self-healing goes in the pot.

I would try to organize your levels to get GTWF. GTWF is good.

wax_on_wax_off
03-12-2012, 07:00 PM
The big difference is that with a traditional AA, you have Manyshot for 20 seconds and then either melee or poor ranged for 100 seconds. With a monkcher, you have Manyshot for 20 seconds, 10k for 60 seconds, and melee or poor ranged for only 40 seconds.

Another difference is your spike self-healing goes in the pot.

I would try to organize your levels to get GTWF. GTWF is good.

Why? It's 12.5% DPS that you only use ~1/4 of the time. That's what, 3% overall DPS? Increasing your wisdom by 2 generates the same outcome according to Diyon's thread and doesn't cost a feat.

Ki and stunning fist profs are another matter and more compelling but in my case I think that I prefer PL: SotF and extend for the constant +3 AB/+3 damage than GTWF, what do you think?

decease
03-12-2012, 09:57 PM
few problem i see:
1: ranger capstone is 25% range speed better then monk stance
2: aa slaying arrow and other imbue are awesome..
3: monk do not get ki from range attack i believe.. atleast use to not..

smithtj3
03-13-2012, 12:37 AM
few problem i see:
1: ranger capstone is 25% range speed better then monk stance
2: aa slaying arrow and other imbue are awesome..
3: monk do not get ki from range attack i believe.. atleast use to not..

Even though the ranger capstone is advertised as 25% it's actually only 12.5% or 50% of the advertised increase. This is true for all alacrity bonuses that I am aware of.

If you pick half elf or elf as your race you can qualify for the arcane archer PrE racially which will get you the slaying arrow imbue.

smithtj3
03-13-2012, 12:45 AM
Why? It's 12.5% DPS that you only use ~1/4 of the time. That's what, 3% overall DPS? Increasing your wisdom by 2 generates the same outcome according to Diyon's thread and doesn't cost a feat.

Ki and stunning fist profs are another matter and more compelling but in my case I think that I prefer PL: SotF and extend for the constant +3 AB/+3 damage than GTWF, what do you think?

Everyone seems to like those two levels of fighter but what are the draw backs to just doing 14 levels of ranger and 6 levels of monk? The additional ranger levels grants more of the ranged feats for free, the entire two weapon line, and gets an additional 7 points of damage against FEs from enhancements while still qualifying for 10K stars. In the character planner it looked like I go all the feats I needed for max ranged damage, stunning fist, and an extra toughness. However, I don't know enough about monk to know what I am really losing by cutting the monk levels in half.

goodspeed
03-13-2012, 01:31 AM
well the main reason of extra monk levels are the handwraps. The more levels you aquire the nicer the wraps become. For instance stunning first. You already have a great wis score, the wraps allow for it, so your just tacking on more dc's via monk levels to your stun.

It also allows for ninja 2 which adds another 2 to 12 SA dmg bringing it to 3D6

Then you also have your master stances available at lv 12. Notable earth. You also have access to touch of death. The 12 levels bring improved evasion. Abundant step.

Though you could give up that and go with say 11 ranger 6 monk 3 arti as shown here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4178508&postcount=3

Brings alot of versatility to the mix. In the end rangers can be played any number of ways. How you like to play and go about things usually determines what you'll build for.

wax_on_wax_off
03-13-2012, 01:59 AM
Everyone seems to like those two levels of fighter but what are the draw backs to just doing 14 levels of ranger and 6 levels of monk? The additional ranger levels grants more of the ranged feats for free, the entire two weapon line, and gets an additional 7 points of damage against FEs from enhancements while still qualifying for 10K stars. In the character planner it looked like I go all the feats I needed for max ranged damage, stunning fist, and an extra toughness. However, I don't know enough about monk to know what I am really losing by cutting the monk levels in half.

12 monk gives:
Improved Evasion
Earth Stance III: +1 crit multiplier (including bows)
Water Stance III: +1 Passive Ki generation (great for 10k stars)
Ninja-Spy II: +2d6 sneak attack, water walk

These are the main draws that I can recall.
Other splits I've merit mind you.
I like:
12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer
11 ranger/6 monk/3 artificer

Artificer in each case is for max UMD to scroll heal with +1 caster level and +30% from Wand and Scroll Mastery I. Traps are a potential bonus.

Gulain
03-13-2012, 07:42 AM
12 monk gives:
Improved Evasion
Earth Stance III: +1 crit multiplier (including bows)
Water Stance III: +1 Passive Ki generation (great for 10k stars)
Ninja-Spy II: +2d6 sneak attack, water walk

These are the main draws that I can recall.
Other splits I've merit mind you.
I like:
12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer
11 ranger/6 monk/3 artificer

Artificer in each case is for max UMD to scroll heal with +1 caster level and +30% from Wand and Scroll Mastery I. Traps are a potential bonus.

That first part is the most important to me and the only reason I can't see doing 11-12 ranger over monk. Water Stance III for ki generation in groups or earths stance 3 for the substantial dps increase if your ki pool is high enough for multiple 10k stars is huge. Add in 2d6 extra SA damage from Ninja-Spy II and the build starts hitting high even without putting level ups into strength.

Overall these Monkcher builds are nice.... easy to get over 500 hp, 30+ all saves, average of 130-150 attacks/min ranged (and more if you melee during manyshot/10k cooldown). These are all substantial increases over what a Kensai or Pure Ranger AA can pull.

Kinerd
03-13-2012, 04:12 PM
Why? It's 12.5% DPS that you only use ~1/4 of the time. That's what, 3% overall DPS? Increasing your wisdom by 2 generates the same outcome according to Diyon's thread and doesn't cost a feat.

Ki and stunning fist profs are another matter and more compelling but in my case I think that I prefer PL: SotF and extend for the constant +3 AB/+3 damage than GTWF, what do you think?PL SotF probably would be better, but I think OP only has the ranger past life. They've got IC: Bludgeon, surely GTWF is better than that. There's also the Lightning Reflexes and second Toughness beckoning to be dropped.
Everyone seems to like those two levels of fighter but what are the draw backs to just doing 14 levels of ranger and 6 levels of monk?A drawback not mentioned in wax's breakdown is that you delay either IPS/GTWF or 10k stars to relatively late. I chose to go 2 monk 11 ranger 4 monk 3 ranger, so the build is really a shell of itself until 17.

wax_on_wax_off
03-14-2012, 06:44 AM
PL SotF probably would be better, but I think OP only has the ranger past life. They've got IC: Bludgeon, surely GTWF is better than that. There's also the Lightning Reflexes and second Toughness beckoning to be dropped.A drawback not mentioned in wax's breakdown is that you delay either IPS/GTWF or 10k stars to relatively late. I chose to go 2 monk 11 ranger 4 monk 3 ranger, so the build is really a shell of itself until 17.

IC:B currently has an important place on account of how ridiculously OP Tharaak Hound wraps are, bit of a toss up here actually.

I've decided that I'll go straight for monk 6 on any sub build and take ITWF as a chosen feat and then swap it out later. Something like:
1 ranger
2 ranger/1 artificer/6 monk
6 ranger/2 artificer/6 monk
Finish as desired ...

Gulain
03-14-2012, 08:09 AM
IC:B currently has an important place on account of how ridiculously OP Tharaak Hound wraps are, bit of a toss up here actually.

I've decided that I'll go straight for monk 6 on any sub build and take ITWF as a chosen feat and then swap it out later. Something like:
1 ranger
2 ranger/1 artificer/6 monk
6 ranger/2 artificer/6 monk
Finish as desired ...

More or less my thought as well, although I'd rather take Artificer at 1 for class-umd (even if you start with less skillpoints) and possibly trap skills.

The 6 monk imo is greater than 6 ranger, just like you have listed, mostly because manyshot pre-11bab is underwhelming. More than likely you'll get similar RoF increases from 10k stars at 6 monk over manyshot with triple the total duration so much better early investment. Undoubtedly Manyshot provides much larger levels of burst later on but you won't see them until you are level 20 in this 12/6/2 split.

The 6/2/6 split as you level is a nice one because it leaves you open to decide how you want to go after that. If done right you'd only need the single feat swap to change between either build.

Shareeth
03-14-2012, 04:21 PM
<element> Stance III = Grandmaster of <element>, correct? if so, the wiki says 18 levels. So do you really get it with a 12 monk?

(adept, master, grandmaster is my thinking.)

wax_on_wax_off
03-14-2012, 06:55 PM
More or less my thought as well, although I'd rather take Artificer at 1 for class-umd (even if you start with less skillpoints) and possibly trap skills.

The 6 monk imo is greater than 6 ranger, just like you have listed, mostly because manyshot pre-11bab is underwhelming. More than likely you'll get similar RoF increases from 10k stars at 6 monk over manyshot with triple the total duration so much better early investment. Undoubtedly Manyshot provides much larger levels of burst later on but you won't see them until you are level 20 in this 12/6/2 split.

The 6/2/6 split as you level is a nice one because it leaves you open to decide how you want to go after that. If done right you'd only need the single feat swap to change between either build.

Different stat split too as one build needs 19 dex while the only needs 14. You certainly wouldn't want to decide which way you were going after you rolled the build up unless you were willing to burn a LR.