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View Full Version : Make Then Scary: Pit Fiends, Horned Devils



Syllph
02-29-2012, 07:21 AM
I have a feeling many will not like this idea but I'll throw it out there:

Some of the bosses just don't seem to have a "fear-me mortal" effect to them. I'd love to have the fear of the abyss brought back. Namely to Harry, Sulu and Horoth.

My vision: No more tank+spank.

Harry specific: Roughly every 15 seconds he will charge at the person he is currently aggroing. This charge will be similar to a minotar's charge except it will carry the player with them, slamming them against a wall and then do a face smash where they hold the player up with one hand and repeatedly smash their face with the other hand until a certain amount of damage is done to them.

Break surround: Especially during the Harry fight, players will surround Harry to prevent him from moving. Now he will randomly crouch (giving players a 1 sec warning to avoid) and then drop a devastating fireball that will do massive damage (Evade-able) and fling players backwards (Non Evade-able. The throw back effect here is just like that of the Dragons in Prey on the Hunter.) This will be especially fearsome in the sulu fight with the spike near him.

Optional elite Challenge only

ToD specific: Judge and Jailor + Sulu and Horoth fight as a team not like idiots. The aggro done to them is shared so if you have the aggro of Horoth you have the aggro of Sulu. If you have the Aggro of the Judge you have the Jailor too.

Dispel: Random dispels players buffs.

Fear-me Mortal indeed.

morticianjohn
02-29-2012, 07:32 AM
We went over this in the velah thread. They cannot keep changing old content to keep up with you. They will fail miserably and alienate new players who have enough of a challenge as it stands.

Syllph
02-29-2012, 11:25 AM
Heh, not so much change it; just make him a pit fiend, not a giant red kobald.

But I see your point.

Bowser_Koopa
02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
Someone else has joined the team of make raid bosses more than a massive hp trash mob.

Yes I agree Harry, Horoth, Suulo and the whole gang of raid bosses with the exception of the lord of blades and the titans in MA need a makeover. They need to pose more of a threat then the traps in their quests, the underlings they have and their environmental surroundings. About the only raid boss not on this list that even has a chance of killing parties is the Abbot and minus his inferno it is highly unlikely he could ever himself cause a wipe.

So yes turbine go back and give your Raid bosses a touchup again make them mighty and not just a minion with a slightly larger graphic and a few hitpoints.

Sincerely,

Bowserkoopa

I fight for Bosses being able to win sometimes too

Syllph
02-29-2012, 01:32 PM
Someone else has joined the team of make raid bosses more than a massive hp trash mob.

Yes I agree Harry, Horoth, Suulo and the whole gang of raid bosses with the exception of the lord of blades and the titans in MA need a makeover. They need to pose more of a threat then the traps in their quests, the underlings they have and their environmental surroundings. About the only raid boss not on this list that even has a chance of killing parties is the Abbot and minus his inferno it is highly unlikely he could ever himself cause a wipe.

So yes turbine go back and give your Raid bosses a touchup again make them mighty and not just a minion with a slightly larger graphic and a few hitpoints.

Sincerely,

Bowserkoopa

I fight for Bosses being able to win sometimes too

ty this was kind of my point.

1 billion HP does not make me scared. It makes me bored.

licho
02-29-2012, 03:00 PM
Up to Harry and Shroud:
IMHO its good idea with push out ability. However i will take away this Massive dmg and repleace them with "some dmg"
Its for me about making it less "surrond and spank" rather than making healer job harder.

So: For some time he will create this crushing wave which will blow all melees away dealing some dmg (but not to much).

As for 1st idea, rather then minotaurs' charge maybe some fly and dive ability? This wing are not for showoff, so for time to time he can fly upwards and then dive to his current agro.

The other though:
- Its good to think how much it will alter different classes and roles.
For example any "massive dmg" will make healer job harder, and will start "have 500hp" shoruds. Also push back do not affect DoTers. Not a good direction of changes if you ask me.

If i wanted make boss scary i will learn them to dismiss dots affecting them every 1min. This is scary.

The other thought about p5 of shroud, i suppose it is old as vale itself. In p5 the portals can spawn some mobs with deathward, not very hard, but annoying enought so the harry circle need to be broken. The mobs need to be dealed with, and then we can come back to spanking. Imho some bunch of mobs to the boss will give enought havoc.

elraido
02-29-2012, 03:40 PM
Sulu and Horoth fight as a team not like idiots. The aggro done to them is shared so if you have the aggro of Horoth you have the aggro of Sulu. .

Been there, done that, completed easier than having them seperated

Bowser_Koopa
02-29-2012, 03:54 PM
I'm just saying that it is a shame there is very little in this game that separates a Raid Boss from a red named quest boss or even at this point an orange named mob in this game.

And before the casual gamer comes in here and says, but I just play to have fun and hang out with my friends argument. From any other MMO or Video Game that I've ever played I can't think of any that had this issue that DDO has. Also I do love this game and will continue to play it, I just feel strongly that Raid Bosses in this game are a joke.

CanuckWisdom
02-29-2012, 04:16 PM
It would be cool if pit fiends did things that displayed immense power, like blowing away nearby players and picking up and throwing against a wall whoever has agro then meteor swarming them or disintigrating them. That would be super cool.

morticianjohn
02-29-2012, 04:16 PM
I'm just saying that it is a shame there is very little in this game that separates a Raid Boss from a red named quest boss or even at this point an orange named mob in this game.

And before the casual gamer comes in here and says, but I just play to have fun and hang out with my friends argument. From any other MMO or Video Game that I've ever played I can't think of any that had this issue that DDO has. Also I do love this game and will continue to play it, I just feel strongly that Raid Bosses in this game are a joke.

I don't see it. Each of them has traits of their own that makes them powerful. Just because you have figured them out doesn't mean they haven't separated themselves out from these other foes. Which orange named does any raid boss fight like? I will grant you that the red named chicken in ToD (or the amrath slayer area) fight just like sully in VoD. However, as they are all horned devils I don't know what differences you're expecting. There are 0 orange named horned devils (that I can think of) and these horned devils don't fight like any other orange named. They chain you, curse you, combine this with their elemental damage and melee power they are a threat unlike any other in the game.

Even those who complain the raid bosses are too easy or dislike the fact that you can use a tank and spank method of dispatching them (such as the OP is complaining about) will disagree that they are just like orange named. When you exaggerate like this it makes me wonder how much even you actually believe what you're saying?


It would be cool if pit fiends did things that displayed immense power, like blowing away nearby players and picking up and throwing against a wall whoever has agro then meteor swarming them or disintigrating them. That would be super cool.

maybe they should banish players from the raid entirely...

Galeria
02-29-2012, 05:03 PM
I agree that extended stand-and-beat bosses are pretty anti-climatic. Sure, maybe some people feel awesome after a full 5 minutes of beating Harry and he finally dies but honestly, I don't think so.

I would /sign a request to make them less HP bloated but boost their various attacks in unexpected ways. Lord of Blades is a good one- it's not just a beatfest, it takes some tactics to win.

psi0nix
02-29-2012, 05:39 PM
I would /sign a request to make them less HP bloated but boost their various attacks in unexpected ways. .

This, I hate the "the games too easy" statements, but, (there's always a but), Raid bosses are meant to be the most savage scary things you can get in the game, Harry is almost the devil himself.

If they where to be more powerful / smarter, then I would prefer a drop in their hP, I do really like the idea of little actions / cinematic actions, perhaps limit the damage done so you can't party wipe with a wave of his claw, but more "fun" like being thrown back against the walls / harry able to get out of the DPS trap by melee.

I'd really have to think more about what I would like to see, but yea definitely agree that they should be "scary" to encounter. Some raids I'm keen to get to the boss because it's less likely I'll die once we get there, where as on the way there a trap or mob could insta-kill me.

You should be quaking in your boots when you get to the boss, not feel relief.

sirgog
02-29-2012, 05:58 PM
Harry is actually pretty nasty when you first run into him - it's only once you outgear Shroud that his DBFs are no longer deadly.

Bowser_Koopa
02-29-2012, 06:32 PM
I don't see it. Each of them has traits of their own that makes them powerful. Just because you have figured them out doesn't mean they haven't separated themselves out from these other foes. Which orange named does any raid boss fight like? I will grant you that the red named chicken in ToD (or the amrath slayer area) fight just like sully in VoD. However, as they are all horned devils I don't know what differences you're expecting. There are 0 orange named horned devils (that I can think of) and these horned devils don't fight like any other orange named. They chain you, curse you, combine this with their elemental damage and melee power they are a threat unlike any other in the game.

Even those who complain the raid bosses are too easy or dislike the fact that you can use a tank and spank method of dispatching them (such as the OP is complaining about) will disagree that they are just like orange named. When you exaggerate like this it makes me wonder how much even you actually believe what you're saying?



maybe they should banish players from the raid entirely...

OK I'll explain.

So lets cover some things you said. Firstly tell me one singular attack Harry has that any other pitfiend in this game does not have? The answer none (yes he has a circle of blades but they are not an attack that comes from him, they are an environmental effect)

Next name an orange named mob that fights like Harry, ok I can do that any orange named mob with a cleave like melee effect and the ability to cast spells. Harry can't curse anyone or chain anyone Suulo can curse and chain and that is his only saving grace to kill anyone. WF Paladins can chain and their not named as well. Just plain Horned devils curse as well.

Next why I think Harry should have more oomph. Look he is a General of shavarath over many other devils he's better in terms of rank than every other red named pit fiend we've fought and currently the only other pitfiend that outranks him is Horoth but I'll get to him later. Going back to Harry this means he is at the least more clever or powerful than the other pitfiends and all he gets for it is more hp's and probably he melee's a bit harder. This to me at least doesn't do enough to show that he's someone special someone feared, I mean according to the storyline if he kills us in the shroud he and his personal legion are going to destroy stormreach and parts of Eberron at the least. The twelve are apparently under the impression even with all of them they couldn't defeat Harry. So yeah he's a big bad Devil and his difficulty should reflect that.

Next on to Horoth, he is better than Harry as he should be he has dot curses, he has a better spell selection, he has banish. To me he is what Harry should be other than some minor tweaks such as maybe throwing spells at his non main target similar to how the Lord of Blades cometfalls random people. Horoth also should get a boost lets face it he's the guy all the devils are looking towards for leadership in power he is what they want to be and he comes very close in my book to being an actual boss.

I've played this game for going on 6 years and really besides some gems all our bosses in this game just fall flat to me, rarely do you get that rush of wow how am i going to defeat that. I think all raids should have no better than a 70% success rate within 5 levels of said raid all bosses should have some feature of if X happens and we don't do Y or something close to Y things are going to go south fast and barring great player skill the raid fails the abbot does this the lord of blades does this the titans in MA do this, the new DQ and Velah have real threats now as well. I think the devils of shavarath and the aboshi devastator need to learn from them.

Syllph
02-29-2012, 06:34 PM
Agreed. If these changes ever made in into shroud I would hope the devs would lower his HP.

Please if a dev reads this: Giving Mobs tons of HP while we spank him for 10 minutes isn't challenging. Add some of these ideas on Lamania and see where we can go from there.

jillie
02-29-2012, 06:46 PM
I don't think that, just because there are many who've overgeared for Shroud (or pick your raid), Harry should suddenly develop a whole new set of abilities. There are still plenty of new people in the game who can't solo Harry to within an inch of his life - I've seen pug fails recently that appeared to be the result of newer players without boss beaters in round 4.

The older content shouldn't be retrofitted for those who have ubergeared multi-TR'd characters. Shroud is fine for its level range - and 70% completion in pugs is probably about what we get now in those pugs that don't have a majority of overpowered shroud runners who can run epics like new level 4's (NOT twinked new toons, but new players) can run Korthos.

Syllph
02-29-2012, 08:23 PM
I've seen pug fails recently that appeared to be the result of newer players without boss beaters in round 4.

However, as you stated they didn't even have boss beater. It isn't hard to find a harry beater (perhaps not an amazing one but one that breaks DR) especially with Arti's special spells.

they should learn from mistakes not have the devs make it easy enough that they can la la in from Korthos and win.

To say that an incompetent group who had no clue what they were doing is an example of why a raid should be dumbed down to the point where it's no fun doesn't seem a correct argument to me.

I'm not suggesting make him harder. I'm actually suggesting him weaker. What I want is a fun fight not 11 people surrounding him like he's a training dummy while a healer heals for 5 minutes. That's not a fun fight.

Niv-mizzet
02-29-2012, 11:07 PM
I'm pretty sure any dev with a lick of sanity and intelligence at this point is not going to change Shroud AGAIN for you just to be yelled at by the other 90% of the players. :p

I like challenge. Yknow what I think they should do? Make more content that's all different and stuff. And they're doing that. I'd rather have the "Weekly Harry modifier guy" at turbine moved onto the new content staff and just leave that job undone.

Heh, I just thought of a "weekly wheel of fortune"-style buff for raid bosses, but that would just be silly.

Falco_Easts
02-29-2012, 11:07 PM
http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/Falco_easts/Arraetrikos.png

Delssar
03-01-2012, 06:27 AM
leave the current raids as they are.

Make new ones that have a challange to them.

Why not have a raid that forces people to split up into groups of 3 and do puzzles.

No not puzzles like the shroud, puzzles like mini crucibles.

The end fight could be 4 rooms stacked ontop of each other.

Top floor is the original fight, the people on the other three levels are trying to figure out puzzles to open doors to lower the boss into a prision chamber or something, so you have to fight on multiple levels while doing puzzles and ultimately locking the bad guy away.

Or Make a psionic boss, one who can cast walls of force to block the passages while you are navigating a maze to find him.

Idk, just no changes to current raids, more future cool raids

Bowser_Koopa
03-01-2012, 11:19 AM
But Harry has never been tough even in the beginning and especially now with the introduction of artificers for dr breaks and mass heal hitting 12 people (yes it didn't do so before) with 2 competent healers and characters with above 350 hp's he really doesn't pose a threat and hasn't since it was decreed if you had less than 350 hps you were not going to do well in the raid.

As for why go back and touch them up i think it's a matter of principle he's a Raid boss that can't win his raid with the exception of getting a lucky shot on both healers or facing a group of characters with sub 350hps. With the current normal blades hitting for 30 a tick and him unable to kill the people he needs to kill (the healers) by any means other than delayed blast fireball or meteor swarm he just does not have the threat he deserves to have as a raid boss.

morticianjohn
03-03-2012, 08:04 AM
But Harry has never been tough even in the beginning and especially now with the introduction of artificers for dr breaks and mass heal hitting 12 people (yes it didn't do so before) with 2 competent healers and characters with above 350 hp's he really doesn't pose a threat and hasn't since it was decreed if you had less than 350 hps you were not going to do well in the raid.

As for why go back and touch them up i think it's a matter of principle he's a Raid boss that can't win his raid with the exception of getting a lucky shot on both healers or facing a group of characters with sub 350hps. With the current normal blades hitting for 30 a tick and him unable to kill the people he needs to kill (the healers) by any means other than delayed blast fireball or meteor swarm he just does not have the threat he deserves to have as a raid boss.

Why don't we go back and give elite velah and elite DQ more power? Lvl 20's doing elite can do these raids solo. Even noobs can do these no problem. Why is elite DQ easier than some other demons in the game? she is supposed to be on another level as the demon QUEEN.

Answer: it is an old raid that came out when the level cap was lower. It was super hard and very exciting a time but got easier and more boring over time.

What is the best solution? Leave them be. We saw the outrage over one small change to shroud. The changes to abbot are met with resistance this update. Just move on from old raids. They are still exciting for new players. I did my first shroud over a year ago but I can remember how exciting it was. I frequently bring new players through their first shroud and I have yet to see one who was not impressed with the raid as a whole. It lasts for 7-10 runs at which point people will get bored but that is to be expected.

LOOON375
03-03-2012, 08:42 AM
The bosses are scary enough and tough enough. All of them............the first time around. Heck, I think they look cool as hell too.

But, when you run the content a gazillion times, all of that wears off. They no longer seem as tough, as scary, and they don't look quite as cool.

I remember when my two guild mates and I killed the first dragon in Mired in Kobolds. It was cool, fun, and tough. We spent a few minutes talking about it and congratulating each other for killing our first dragon.

Now when I go in there, it's for XP and favor. It is no longer as cool and it's easy as hell.