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Llewndyn
02-23-2012, 09:20 AM
I would like to share a story, then quantify which chains that, unless you are willing to start over, you will NEVER fill up a group for.

Last night, join a Co6 Elite run. The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash, so I figured traps were covered. I get in, tell him I will buff and head to the caves, and he reiterates it's just Co6. D'oh! I had spaced that. Couple other people had as well, as they piped up at that point saying no one had flagged for it. Leader is annoyed, which I understand, and we go in and do the Sorrowdusk part.

It's going really well, TBH, sub 4 minute runs on everything, Get to Co6, go through the first 2 there, even though he said something about how he hadn't planned on running the other chain and how he didn't like us infringing on his time I figure 12 extra minutes to get people flagged can't impact his playtime too much... get to the big temple and he ragequits. In the middle of everything. Just leaves. As you all know, this was right before the one with all the mephits and fire traps. On elite. and the highest level amongst us was 9, the sorc I think. We had a couple toons with sub-100 HP.

Long story slightly shorter, we finish, out of a full group at the beginning just me and the sorc at the end, but it got me to thinking. What quest chains do you run that you know the only chance of getting a group together is to restart? Off the top of my head I am thinking:

Catacombs
Tangleroot
Sorrowdusk/ Co6

I can't think of any others. Even like Delera's has good enough XP you can jump in at any time and run them, and the necro ones and VON and all that are non-sequential... Did this guy getting annoyed and ragequitting for us wasting 12 minutes of his time have merit? I know he had Co6 in the LFM and me and 3 others ignored this, but was I in the wrong or was he?

EDIT: ROFL, Wrong area to post this. I am too lazy to move it though.

grgurius
02-23-2012, 09:24 AM
Worst chain - Threnal.

As for your other question, you haven't read the lfm, so some anger on the party leaders side is understandable.

djsonar919
02-23-2012, 09:39 AM
The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash....



That or he rage quit after he realized he created a rogue/arti/ranger splash and went to re-roll. :p

Llewndyn
02-23-2012, 10:08 AM
Worst chain - Threnal.

As for your other question, you haven't read the lfm, so some anger on the party leaders side is understandable.

So you win there, and I offered more than once to drop and solo while he was filling, out of the 6 of us 4 had not run sorrowdusk. If he had said yes drop and run it on your own I would have done that and rejoined; saying, as he did, "No that's fine, I really didn't want to run it but that's fine" to me does not equal him having an attitude the whole time we were in there. No one twisted his arm and made him acquiesce to our preferences.

Bacab
02-23-2012, 10:28 AM
I think threnal...Coyle is the worst part of this game.

As an event...we should get to re-name our Guild-ship dummies "Coyle" of course the enhancement you'd get would be "Seconds of Work" instead of "Hour of Work".

Also with Coyle as a training dummy...there would be no DPS test anymore.

wmedina
02-23-2012, 11:04 AM
I guess proof that you didnt read the LFM is that here either read 'what section were you' .. ROFL...

:D

HungarianRhapsody
02-23-2012, 01:13 PM
Threnal.



Threnal is so ugly that Bob the Builder looked at it and said, "I can't fix that."

Threnal is so stupid that it tried to put all of its M&Ms in alphabetical order.

Threnal is so bad that LFMs for it won't even fill if there are already 6 people in the party.

nomaddog
02-23-2012, 01:14 PM
Threnal

AZgreentea
02-23-2012, 01:21 PM
I dont know about "worst" to run, but Catacombs is almost impossible to fill unless you leave the LFM up as you progress. I usually consider a 5 man party run on that to be on the larger side. Luckily most people get stuck on the final fight solo, so they dont mind rerunning some of the others for a completion. :D I really enjoy the Catacombs story and quests. It was the first pack I ever purchased and the only one ever purchased not on sale.

I think the worst chain to get a group for is Necro 1. Nobody ever wants to run that very frequently, and because of the flagging I hate joining an LFM in progress.

Memnir
02-23-2012, 01:59 PM
Threnal is painfully bad in a multitude of ways.
The Devs really ought to work on improving the chain so people who buy it don't wind up totally wasting their points. I've run maybe two Threnal runs start to finish since Unlimited launched.


If the Devs don't want to/have the time to fix the chain - make it F2P with a minor refund to those who've bought the pack. It might not fix the gameplay/mechanics problems that abound in Threnal - but it might at least get people to run it more often.

grgurius
02-23-2012, 02:05 PM
So you win there, and I offered more than once to drop and solo while he was filling, out of the 6 of us 4 had not run sorrowdusk. If he had said yes drop and run it on your own I would have done that and rejoined; saying, as he did, "No that's fine, I really didn't want to run it but that's fine" to me does not equal him having an attitude the whole time we were in there. No one twisted his arm and made him acquiesce to our preferences.

No need to get defensive there, i just said i understand if he got angry after 4 people joined for the wrong part of the chain. Otherwise i dont know the whole story, apart from people joining for the other quest, running the other quest, then party leader quiting.

Honestly, i can't even figure out why you even mentioned it, considreing your thread is about quest chains.

Dragavon
02-23-2012, 02:09 PM
Last night, join a Co6 Elite run. The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash, so I figured traps were covered. I get in, tell him I will buff and head to the caves, and he reiterates it's just Co6. D'oh! I had spaced that. Couple other people had as well, as they piped up at that point saying no one had flagged for it. Leader is annoyed, which I understand, and we go in and do the Sorrowdusk part.

Why did you ask for GMW to be done? You could just have followed the leader as he opened Co6, no need to flag, you still get the XP and favour for completion?

I perfectly understand the leader, he probably had limited time and had to go.

If I put up an LFM for Co6 then I mean to run Co6, not GMW. Simple as that.

Dawnsfire
02-23-2012, 03:14 PM
Threnal is painfully bad in a multitude of ways.
The Devs really ought to work on improving the chain so people who buy it don't wind up totally wasting their points. I've run maybe two Threnal runs start to finish since Unlimited launched.

I agree that it is pretty bad if you try to run the whole thing. I have only run it on one character all the way through and only because I wanted the mantle for a TR.

The pre-Coyle stuff isn't too bad for xp but I won't run the rest unless I really have to.

Kromize
02-23-2012, 03:57 PM
Worst chain - Threnal.

I love threnal. Worst chain IMO is catacombs. Everything to do with it is crapalappa. (except for the slightly interesting quests, kinda)



As for your other question, you haven't read the lfm, so some anger on the party leaders side is understandable.

I agree. The leader probably left because he didn't have any more time to stick around. That would be why he complained about the infringement upon his play time. Just because you guys couldn't read properly you made it so he couldn't finish co6. Poor guy...

mobrien316
02-23-2012, 04:05 PM
I agree with others that Threnal is the worst chain in the game.


You have to get a group together that has quite some free time to play the whole thing or you might as well not even try.


And I have had no success trying to keep an elite streak going with a cleric hireling trying to protect Coyle. If I luck into five other souls who want to torture themselves on a Friday night by slogging through this chain, great. Otherwise I generally skip it (though I have sometimes done the protection quests on casual and the rest on elite.)


If they took out the "escort" and "protect" requirements in this chain, it would probably be one of my favorites to run.

Dandonk
02-23-2012, 04:09 PM
Threnal, by far. Just because of Coyle. Oh, and the stupid reflagging mechanism.

I actually like tangle. Yes, I know I'm sick and need help, but I do. With proper rushing and redoing of part 6A it's not bad xp at all, IMO.

sebastianosmith
02-23-2012, 04:14 PM
Threnal! Coyle is a suicidal maniac bent on achieving Nirvana through sheer tenacity alone. He is, of course, doomed to failure in his goal as he learns nothing from one life to the next.

sirgog
02-23-2012, 04:17 PM
Threnal, by far. Just because of Coyle. Oh, and the stupid reflagging mechanism.

I actually like tangle. Yes, I know I'm sick and need help, but I do. With proper rushing and redoing of part 6A it's not bad xp at all, IMO.

Threnal is good XP too, as long as you avoid the fatal mistake of trying to complete it.

Honestly I think raising Coyle's HP to the low 1000s range and giving him sensible spells is all that is needed to make the east chain good. South needs a total overhaul - the quests are fine but the flagging is just awful.

Impaqt
02-23-2012, 04:18 PM
Chains of Flame.. No Doubt. I hate that long run to get to it, and the xp sucks for how long the quest is.

Lleren
02-23-2012, 04:18 PM
Threnal is the worst I've so far run into.

I'd nominate Necropolis 1 , 2 , 3, and 4 for second place though. Even though you can run 1 quest at a time and don't have to do them in order.

LOOON375
02-23-2012, 04:21 PM
Restless Isles for me. Tried it once when I first started playing and hated it after two quests.

Then went back and tried it a month or so ago to give it another shot, and I remembered why I hated it so much. What a PITA.

morticianjohn
02-23-2012, 04:21 PM
I did co6 today. First half was this morning. I had some join who weren't flagged. The first guy was only a quest away so we did it quickly and moved on. The second guy joined us after and just had to run the quests with red text. The last part I did this afternoon from the time I posted the LFM to the time I finished and took it down was an hour and not one person joined.

In answer to your question however, I think into the deep and VoN 5 are worse situations because there is no option to red text it. They are vastly more popular than some of those you mentioned like sorrowdusk so I guess it isn't too bad. Threnal is the ultimate answer of course

Dandonk
02-23-2012, 04:24 PM
Threnal is good XP too, as long as you avoid the fatal mistake of trying to complete it.

Honestly I think raising Coyle's HP to the low 1000s range and giving him sensible spells is all that is needed to make the east chain good. South needs a total overhaul - the quests are fine but the flagging is just awful.

Yeah, I always do some east2 runs, but I rarely complete the series. I think it's a little sad, an otherwise decent set of quests (and decent-ish rewards) is ruined by 1 quests and a stupid flag mechanic.

I think East3 needs not only a Coyle overhaul, but also needs to last less time (10mins maybe) and give more xp (6-7k at least... but could take a couple k from East2 to compensate).

I've recently started to hate West, too. For some reason I have gotten good at getting the NPC there killed, too. Never used to be a problem, but now...
Oh, well, they told me I shouldn't have dumpstatted INT in RL, but did I listen?

EDIT: Ooooh, how did I forget Restless Isles. I can never find anything out there...

Caliban
02-23-2012, 05:48 PM
Threnal isn't that bad if you use the bluff option and knock Coyle unconcious, turn him invisible, and toss a few AoE's over his prone body to pull aggro away.

Still one of my least favorite quest chains though - very hard to do on Elite without a good caster and/or healer.

Sarisa
02-23-2012, 07:34 PM
The main problem with a lot of these longer chains is that they are quite unfriendly to PUG's, especially now with streaking.

In a static group, doing Delera's (5/7/7/8), Tangleroot (3/3/4/4/5/5/6/6/7/7), and Sorrowdusk (6/6/7/7 8/8/9/9/10/10) are no problem to do. You can split up your runs over multiple levels, without any trouble. You're also more likely to be able to successfully underlevel bravery-streak them in a well equipped, experienced group, that knows how to work well with one another.

In PUG's, it's a lot harder to keep a group together, and get a group together who will either want to under-level bravery part of it or be willing to give up the streak bonus for earlier parts of the chain.

Threnal is a host of issues. Coyle, the horrible flagging system, the other escort missions, the extremely wide range in experience gains (worst quest in the game along with some good ones). The odd level spread (W:8/8/10 E:9/10/10 S:9/9/10) only makes it worse.

Restless Isles main issue is the lack of a functional map. A way to make it FAR easier is to have someone share the two quests, and make sure to retake them every time. Then, you can use the guides to teleport right near the quests. You only have to memorize a short set of paths, and vastly simplify getting through. It should also get the "House Cannith Enclave" treatment and allow scaled raid groups entry with hirelings.

Chains of Flame, while a nice little joke on the topic, is another valid point. I absolutely love the quest on epic, but at-level is just a pain. It takes too long to get there and the experience gain is much worse than just about anything else out in the desert.

InsanityIsYourFriend
02-23-2012, 07:47 PM
i hate korthos!!!! it gives the LEAST xp of ANY chain, gives some of the worst loot, and new people always do this chain first so getting a GOOD group is hell!

MRMechMan
02-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Threnal competes with von3, shadow crypt and fathom the depths...it would need to give a hell of a lot more XP to have TRs do anything involving it...besides laughing. Run 6 of SC done...how about some threnal....ahahhahhaa.

It's terrible. It's the one pack I truely regret buying. Catacombs slightly but at least gives SF favor, is easy and OK xp at level. The 100xp/min protection quest is my favorite. 1x for mantle, and probably at level 20, and maybe not even then.

It's even harder to get a group for threnal partway through because everyone is after the mantle, so don't want to redbox parts. Can't blame them...If I miss part1 of catacombs I couldn't care less. Same with just about every chain, except maybe deleras on a first lifer.

Nailog
02-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Did this guy getting annoyed and ragequitting for us wasting 12 minutes of his time have merit? I know he had Co6 in the LFM and me and 3 others ignored this, but was I in the wrong or was he?


Unfortunately with Sorrowdusk, it isn't just 12 mins of his time. Let's assume you were able to get each of the first 4 quests down to 3 mins each (which you can't possibly, since each second quest requires that you run through the first quest just to get to the new territory). That's 12 mins total quest time. After the first quest, you have to run to the ogre to advance, and then run back to the quest. After the second quest, run to ogre, advance, then run all the way to the next dungeon. After this third quest, run (or recall) all the way to the ogre again, and then run all the way back to the troll dungeon, again.

That's a lot of running. Running takes time.

Memnir
02-23-2012, 10:09 PM
I love threnal.
Threnal is good XP too, as long as you avoid the fatal mistake of trying to complete it.I enjoy the chain as well, which is why I keep trying to run it - and why I get frustrated when it seems like a wasted effort to even bother with trying.


I don't say it's the worst because I dislike it. I say it's the worst because it has the most punishing mechanics to quest-advancement in the game - among several other questionable/simply awful choices in game design in DDO. In every run of Threnal I've done in my total time playing the game - there is always at least one person who looses out on an end reward because the advancement system of the quest is so bad. Then the topic of Coyle comes up...


Threnal would be awesome with a handful of much needed tweaks and a bit of overhauling. It could easily be one of the best chains in the game - but the Devs' continued refusal, or perhaps inability, to fix Threnal keeps it locked in as the worst in my opinion. And a lot of that feeling is the wasted opportunity for something that could be great - but needs some TLC to become so.

sirgog
02-23-2012, 10:15 PM
Threnal competes with von3, shadow crypt and fathom the depths...it would need to give a hell of a lot more XP to have TRs do anything involving it...besides laughing. Run 6 of SC done...how about some threnal....ahahhahhaa.

It's terrible. It's the one pack I truely regret buying. Catacombs slightly but at least gives SF favor, is easy and OK xp at level. The 100xp/min protection quest is my favorite. 1x for mantle, and probably at level 20, and maybe not even then.

It's even harder to get a group for threnal partway through because everyone is after the mantle, so don't want to redbox parts. Can't blame them...If I miss part1 of catacombs I couldn't care less. Same with just about every chain, except maybe deleras on a first lifer.

East 2 is well ahead of the 5th-10th runs of Fathom. It can be done in ~5½ minutes, and remains over 8000 XP for quite a number of runs.

East 1 isn't bad either - it's a 70 second zerg for about 2000 XP on a bravery run. (You only do it once).

Llewndyn
02-24-2012, 08:55 AM
No need to get defensive there, i just said i understand if he got angry after 4 people joined for the wrong part of the chain. Otherwise i dont know the whole story, apart from people joining for the other quest, running the other quest, then party leader quiting.

Honestly, i can't even figure out why you even mentioned it, considreing your thread is about quest chains.

And someone pointed out that Sorrowdust/ Grey Moon Waning is a different chain than Co6, but I thought you had to do GMW in order to do Co6? I wanted the end reward, the favor, and to never have to go back :P

And I mentioned it because, as I erroneously thought, it was all one big chain, since i have never seen it broken up like that, and in my skewed reality it fit in perfectly as a chain that is tough to get pugged out when you are in the middle of it.

I mean...um...hold on...I WILL HATE YOU FOREVER!!!!

Llewndyn
02-24-2012, 09:02 AM
I agree. The leader probably left because he didn't have any more time to stick around. That would be why he complained about the infringement upon his play time. Just because you guys couldn't read properly you made it so he couldn't finish co6. Poor guy...

I offered to drop along with the others and run the whole thing on our own, and he said no, it wasn't a huge problem, just not what he put the LFM up for... Just as I misread the LFM and joined and wanted to run something else, he could have said "no", the 4 of us could have dropped party, and he could have gone on his merry way. NOW I'm being defensive. It's not like I put a gun to his head. When people don't read my LFMs and join, I have a choice: deal with it and be a little inconvenienced, or tell them to drop and wait to fill. He chose the former, it LITERALLY took 12 extra minutes, and he dropped less than HALFWAY through the Co6 chain. If you subtract the 12 minutes that we added running GMW, he STILL would have left a long time before we finished the chain. So don't go telling me it's our fault he dropped, because it's not. That's bad planning on his part. If you don't have time to run the whole chain, TELL people that. I will go run something else if I am infringing on a tight schedule.

TL; DR - He CHOSE to run it with us. His problem, not mine.

HungarianRhapsody
02-24-2012, 09:03 AM
And someone pointed out that Sorrowdust/ Grey Moon Waning is a different chain than Co6, but I thought you had to do GMW in order to do Co6? I wanted the end reward, the favor, and to never have to go back :P

And I mentioned it because, as I erroneously thought, it was all one big chain, since i have never seen it broken up like that, and in my skewed reality it fit in perfectly as a chain that is tough to get pugged out when you are in the middle of it.

I mean...um...hold on...I WILL HATE YOU FOREVER!!!!

It's sort of two chains and it's sort of one.

You have to do GMW in order to do Co6 on your own if you want the chain end reward (and you get a lootgen/not named item reward at the end of GMW), but after you finish both, you can choose to repeat the entire full series of both GMW and Co6 or you can choose to repeat just the Co6 "chain".

Thrudh
02-24-2012, 09:24 AM
I enjoy the chain as well, which is why I keep trying to run it - and why I get frustrated when it seems like a wasted effort to even bother with trying.


I don't say it's the worst because I dislike it. I say it's the worst because it has the most punishing mechanics to quest-advancement in the game - among several other questionable/simply awful choices in game design in DDO. In every run of Threnal I've done in my total time playing the game - there is always at least one person who looses out on an end reward because the advancement system of the quest is so bad. Then the topic of Coyle comes up...


Threnal would be awesome with a handful of much needed tweaks and a bit of overhauling. It could easily be one of the best chains in the game - but the Devs' continued refusal, or perhaps inability, to fix Threnal keeps it locked in as the worst in my opinion. And a lot of that feeling is the wasted opportunity for something that could be great - but needs some TLC to become so.

This. Threnal could definitely use an overhaul. It's just too many quests in a single chain, it's too easy to screw up advancing the chain, and the 15 minute East 3 quest is way too long and way too hard to fill.

Kylstrem
02-24-2012, 09:59 AM
Threnal is probably the worst, but seems like it could be fixed ever so easily by the Devs.

Here are the problems I see for it:

1) Threnal East Part 3 (Protect coyle for 15 minutes).
2) The easy way you can screw up being able to do Threnal "south" by choosing the wrong "speech" option. Heck, when you finish Threnal West, a "Repeat" option automatically pops up before you can even select your End Reward. WHY, DEVS!??!
3) The Length of the quests definitely prevents a single group from completing in one run.

Proposal for fixes:

1) Change this to 10 minutes. And change it to where Coyle doesn't fight. Have him stand in place in the middle (kind of like how Tesara does in Gladewatch). Or allow you to move your Party and Coyle to one of the corners for better defense. If this were Pen and Paper, you would be able to make these types of common sense decisions. And increase the XP for it.

2) Fix the freaking conversation options so it is obvious about what you are selecting. Also, after the first time through, allow all 3 parts to be done in any order. (This would put it more in-line with the current chains like Reign of Madness or the Lordsmarch quests).


3) Several fixes for this:
a) Threnal West, Part 2: You start down in the room where Part 1 ended. You clear to the guy you need to escort, then clear back up.
b) Threnal West Part 3: You start down in the room where Part 2 ended. Reduce the number of Renders to kill by however many are between the current entrance and this location.
c) Threnal East Part 2: Forget the stupid Escort Part. No one likes Escort quests. Start the quest outside the Library door.
d) Threnal South Part 1: Add the "Kill the beholder" required objective to the objective list as soon as the quest starts. Stupid that you have to find the beholder before you even know it is a requirement.
e) Threnal South Part 2: Start the quest in room where Part 1 ended. Having to essentially do Part 1 all over again is dumb.

This would essentially change what was originally End Game content to be more in line with low-mid-level quests in the game. A PUG (or heck, even a guild group) would be much more likely to be able to keep the group together through the entire chain.

It's not like the end reward list is that FANTASTIC that people would exploit/farm this chain for special items.

Don't change the XP (except maybe for Threnal East Part 3).

Kylstrem
02-24-2012, 10:05 AM
And I would not put Catacombs as one of the worst.

It is now easy to 3 man with 3 hireling clerics in less than an hour on elite at level 5.

10 quests in less than an hour (30 minutes to 45 minutes if you know what you are doing).

and with bravery/streak bonuses, it's quite a bit of XP for that entire chain.

I would add a chest and more XP for the last quest though. It's a big let down.

Perhaps, after the first quest, exiting the quest would drop you right in front of the entrance to Dryden's chambers instead of having to run up every time. This would also discourage the "I need to go repair" people from doing this after every other quest in this chain.

Saaluta
02-24-2012, 10:16 AM
And someone pointed out that Sorrowdust/ Grey Moon Waning is a different chain than Co6, but I thought you had to do GMW in order to do Co6? I wanted the end reward, the favor, and to never have to go back :P

And I mentioned it because, as I erroneously thought, it was all one big chain, since i have never seen it broken up like that, and in my skewed reality it fit in perfectly as a chain that is tough to get pugged out when you are in the middle of it.

I mean...um...hold on...I WILL HATE YOU FOREVER!!!!

Actually, it was not until just a couple of years ago that it was split into 2 chains. GMW and CO6 used to be 1 chain that had to be run together.

Saal :)

WizardMerrick
02-24-2012, 11:03 AM
Threnal is bad, but Necropolis series is easily FAR worse for PUGs.

I can't remember the last time I saw any LFG Necro listings at level.

I managed to get through Threnal with a moderate amount of difficulty at level but getting a party through Necro 2 or 3 at level is nigh impossible unless they've all run it before and I know of noone who willingly runs that whole set of adventure packs more than once on a character.

Tomb of the Shadow Guard is fricking ridiculous even *if* your party has Cannith Crafted underwater action items thereby removing the ridiculous moss patch mechanic from the equation. Add to that the fact that there's only one shrine in the whole place and you need more than a moderate amount of Jump to reach it (if you have less than 5 jump skill even if you down a basic jump potion, you're not getting there) and if the wrong person dies, the party is doomed. This quest could be made PUG friendly simply by the addition of an extra shrine or two in safe easy-to-reach places and some of Wayfinder Dael's chickenscratchings ala Shan-To-Kor so that people can figure out which way to go once they're underwater.

Then there's the incredibly annoying layouts of some of the other quests.

Tomb of the Forbidden. You only have a few seconds to pull a lever, pass an item through a gate to another player in trade, and have them pull a second lever before yours resets? Oh, *that's* fun. Especially when trade windows can take 3-5 seconds to pop up from the time you smack the button. Hooray for Cannith Crafting or Server Load or whatever causes that! This quest and Tomb of the Blighted could both be very easily "fixed" if there were two gears in Forbidden and each member of the party could pick up vials in Blighted. Such small changes and suddenly they're PUG-friendly.

Let's not forget The Shadow Crypt. This particular quest's layout reminds me a lot of the nerdy "tabletop bullies" who used to GM in junior high school *just* so they could get back at the players for something. Whoever designed this place's layout could probably benefit from a firm neckpunch/solar plexus combo with a mouth full of chopped hot pepper. While they're busy picking the uncomfortably warm bits out of their sinuses and lungs they can contemplate the difference between "fun and exciting" and "painful and tedious". Or better yet, skip the hot peppers, they could just be forced to run the Necro chain over and over as their only source of experience at those levels. A little role reversal usually fixes a bad DM.

Then we come to the pièce de résistance of the non-raiding portion of the Necro packs....

Tomb of the Tormented (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Tormented)

I'm convinced that everyone who has done this quest has blocked it out of their minds because you almost never hear it brought up but this is hands-down the most annoying and frustrating quest I have ever tackled in any game and I played the Original EQ pre-Luclin...when quest NPCs didn't GIVE quests...you just had to stand there and figure out what to hand them or exactly which words to say in which order to get a response and good luck figuring out which items they needed for the next portion.

In Tomb of the Tormented, you have to drop rotting meat (which drops from the undead you kill) into little holes in the floor and use it to lead a rat around in a maze that's in the floor. Sounds like a really neat concept, doesn't it?

Too bad this maze is loaded with whirling blades and mobs far stronger than the rat. So how do you get through this quest? You perform the world's slowest single-file zerg rush.

You lead through one rat at a time, suiciding them on enemy mobs until they take down all of the enemy mobs in each maze. Then you run them through AGAIN attempting to dodge all of the traps.

That's right, it's not just one maze, it's THREE SEPARATE MAZES, each harder than the last.

Coyle is a piece of freaking cake compared to this cluster.

Sarisa
02-24-2012, 11:18 AM
Tomb of the Forbidden. You only have a few seconds to pull a lever, pass an item through a gate to another player in trade, and have them pull a second lever before yours resets? Oh, *that's* fun. Especially when trade windows can take 3-5 seconds to pop up from the time you smack the button. Hooray for Cannith Crafting or Server Load or whatever causes that! This quest and Tomb of the Blighted could both be very easily "fixed" if there were two gears in Forbidden and each member of the party could pick up vials in Blighted. Such small changes and suddenly they're PUG-friendly.

A trick to make this easier is to click on the lever to unlock it, but then move before you actually pull on it. It remains unlocked. Then, you can trade the gear over, and both people pull at once. This also works if you have a hireling. You'll just have to unlock the side one, position the hireling on that, then go back to the middle.

It's still a frustrating mechanic, but there are ways around the latency/lag.

WizardMerrick
02-24-2012, 12:01 PM
A trick to make this easier is to click on the lever to unlock it, but then move before you actually pull on it. It remains unlocked. Then, you can trade the gear over, and both people pull at once. This also works if you have a hireling. You'll just have to unlock the side one, position the hireling on that, then go back to the middle.

It's still a frustrating mechanic, but there are ways around the latency/lag.

Ooh! Thanks for the tip!

DarkRea
02-24-2012, 06:28 PM
Tomb of the Tormented (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Tormented)

I'm convinced that everyone who has done this quest has blocked it out of their minds because you almost never hear it brought up but this is hands-down the most annoying and frustrating quest I have ever tackled in any game and I played the Original EQ pre-Luclin...when quest NPCs didn't GIVE quests...you just had to stand there and figure out what to hand them or exactly which words to say in which order to get a response and good luck figuring out which items they needed for the next portion.

In Tomb of the Tormented, you have to drop rotting meat (which drops from the undead you kill) into little holes in the floor and use it to lead a rat around in a maze that's in the floor. Sounds like a really neat concept, doesn't it?

Too bad this maze is loaded with whirling blades and mobs far stronger than the rat. So how do you get through this quest? You perform the world's slowest single-file zerg rush.

You lead through one rat at a time, suiciding them on enemy mobs until they take down all of the enemy mobs in each maze. Then you run them through AGAIN attempting to dodge all of the traps.

That's right, it's not just one maze, it's THREE SEPARATE MAZES, each harder than the last.


Its a quite good quest once you get to know the mazes and that you can kill the mobs in the maze. If not yourself, then grab a Cleric12 hireling(Flagon) from the MP vendor for BB and he can hit the worgs with it once pr.BB. Its slow but works and on elite, its still better than sending 7 rats to the worg before you get through. Death Aura and other things work too, but that requires special ppl. An item that works too is the named Wand from Diplomatic Impunity, Wand of Blasting i think.

I've gotten that Q down to 25mins on elite for 27k elite 1st time xp (+50bravery +20% xp pot +voice). Maze 1 takes about 1 minute, Maze 2 about 5 and Maze 3 about 12mins, provided you can disable the 3 traps Maze 3 is even faster though it just saves you some nervous timing. Rest of time is clearing mobs.

I think its my favourite Q there, though for TRs Ive yet to find an optimal partner there to run it 5 times with me(EH3N) or just EH if your XP/min demands are higher. Ok Blighted is damn good too and a better multiple run XP place but Tormented was my favourite when Mod5 came out for the uniqueness.

I hope you will give that quest a 2nd chance. Try run it with a Wizard friend and have him load Death Aura and maybe Chain Lightning for the mobs or a divine caster friend and have him load BB for maze mobs.

A Rogue13 hireling Fira something, could with a GH, find and disable the traps on elite, though I bought that one in the store(to test in the spur of the moment), not sure if can get for plat.

Sircowdog
02-26-2012, 05:14 AM
Worst chain - Threnal.

Hands down, Threnal. Where your entire chance of success rests firmly in the hands of an NPC with about 40hp who runs right into the thickest part of combat. Enemies immediately home in on him.

Oh, and this happens in about 2 or 3 separate quests, culminating in the ******** feat of keeping the guy alive for 15 minutes straight.

Unbelievably stupid quest design.

Mad_ScientistsNH
02-26-2012, 07:31 AM
I think we are on agreement as to what the worst quest in the game is, but what I'm really wondering is "What's number 2?"

cheekysmile
02-26-2012, 07:38 AM
Well come tomorrow i can't imagine anyone will be running the Lord of Eyes chain ever again.

I've seen grown men crying because that +6 cha ring won't drop after 40+ runs in a week.

HungarianRhapsody
02-26-2012, 08:44 AM
Well come tomorrow i can't imagine anyone will be running the Lord of Eyes chain ever again.

I've seen grown men crying because that +6 cha ring won't drop after 40+ runs in a week.

I can't imagine anyone running a chain for 40 hours just to get an item that makes leveling from 1 to 9 in less than 40 hours slightly easier.

Philibusta
02-26-2012, 09:49 AM
Also with Coyle as a training dummy...there would be no DPS test anymore.

There's no PROPER DPS test with the airship dummy anyway, since the dummy (at least the one on our ship) is immune to crits, and some weapon effects, which would count to your DPS in a quest.

LordTigerDawn
02-26-2012, 10:23 AM
Threnal is bad, but Necropolis series is easily FAR worse for PUGs.

Tomb of the Forbidden. You only have a few seconds to pull a lever, pass an item through a gate to another player in trade, and have them pull a second lever before yours resets? Oh, *that's* fun. Especially when trade windows can take 3-5 seconds to pop up from the time you smack the button. Hooray for Cannith Crafting or Server Load or whatever causes that! This quest and Tomb of the Blighted could both be very easily "fixed" if there were two gears in Forbidden and each member of the party could pick up vials in Blighted. Such small changes and suddenly they're PUG-friendly.

Let's not forget The Shadow Crypt. This particular quest's layout reminds me a lot of the nerdy "tabletop bullies" who used to GM in junior high school *just* so they could get back at the players for something. Whoever designed this place's layout could probably benefit from a firm neckpunch/solar plexus combo with a mouth full of chopped hot pepper. While they're busy picking the uncomfortably warm bits out of their sinuses and lungs they can contemplate the difference between "fun and exciting" and "painful and tedious". Or better yet, skip the hot peppers, they could just be forced to run the Necro chain over and over as their only source of experience at those levels. A little role reversal usually fixes a bad DM.

Then we come to the pièce de résistance of the non-raiding portion of the Necro packs....

Tomb of the Tormented (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tomb_of_the_Tormented)

I'm convinced that everyone who has done this quest has blocked it out of their minds because you almost never hear it brought up but this is hands-down the most annoying and frustrating quest I have ever tackled in any game and I played the Original EQ pre-Luclin...when quest NPCs didn't GIVE quests...you just had to stand there and figure out what to hand them or exactly which words to say in which order to get a response and good luck figuring out which items they needed for the next portion.

In Tomb of the Tormented, you have to drop rotting meat (which drops from the undead you kill) into little holes in the floor and use it to lead a rat around in a maze that's in the floor. Sounds like a really neat concept, doesn't it?

Too bad this maze is loaded with whirling blades and mobs far stronger than the rat. So how do you get through this quest? You perform the world's slowest single-file zerg rush.

You lead through one rat at a time, suiciding them on enemy mobs until they take down all of the enemy mobs in each maze. Then you run them through AGAIN attempting to dodge all of the traps.

That's right, it's not just one maze, it's THREE SEPARATE MAZES, each harder than the last.

Coyle is a piece of freaking cake compared to this cluster.

What one has not gathered is that the one that is tormented is the player in "Tomb of the Tormented". With that in mind, I cannot imagine the Dev team doing a better job. I would not change it ever.

Forbidden is soloable with a hireling. (kinda annoying to do it, but possible)
Shadow Crypt is a really neat concept. I am happy they made it.

Rumbaar
02-26-2012, 02:59 PM
Thernal hands down, it's long and only 2 quests actually give you decent XP. Then Tangleroot, for the fact it starts at L4 and ends at L7. So it's 'designed' to be played in sections ...

As for Tomb of Torment, that isn't as bad as people think it is. Blade Barrier to clean up the enemies in the maze in part 3 and only takes time. There are worse quests in Necro III than that one.

Jeromio
02-26-2012, 03:49 PM
As for Tomb of Torment, that isn't as bad as people think it is. Blade Barrier to clean up the enemies in the maze in part 3 and only takes time. There are worse quests in Necro III than that one.

Yep, BB... even on a hireling does the trick, but it's still booooooooooring. You basically do the same thing three times with some spicing up with the traps in the third part. My opinion is that they should remake this quest and skip the 1st or 2nd maze.

bowiehero
02-26-2012, 04:40 PM
Any exploding flame shot rune arm will also hit the mobs through the maze grating.

Rumbaar
02-26-2012, 05:17 PM
Yep, BB... even on a hireling does the trick, but it's still booooooooooring. You basically do the same thing three times with some spicing up with the traps in the third part. My opinion is that they should remake this quest and skip the 1st or 2nd maze.I think most of Necro III is boring. Blighted, grab water throw at wall, hack slash, run back grab water, run back throw at wall, repeat rinse repeat.

Only one isn't a ring around of repetition, and then with FoM it's a pain.

destiny4405
02-26-2012, 09:19 PM
threnal is by far worst for me. coyle is just super annoying. 3bc after that. except for GiaC, xp is just terrible. Carnival is a bit tough running on elite on lvl.

GMW is so-so, but CO6 has quest that are really fast xp. Tangleroot also. Catacombs are not bad. Fast chain and nice xp.

NecroI-III quests are a bit tedious, but xp and silver flame favor really makes up for it.

herzkos
02-26-2012, 09:35 PM
Well come tomorrow i can't imagine anyone will be running the Lord of Eyes chain ever again.

I've seen grown men crying because that +6 cha ring won't drop after 40+ runs in a week.

in the mirror maybe? :P

or did they do a videoconference with ya?

anyway, on topic:

Least favorite chain to me is probably threnal followed by necro 1,3, and 4 til they change the flagging
garbage with the "chance" to flag by running a quest. Really? run the quest and maybe get what you need?
preposterous.

threnal for coyle.
necro 1 and 3 for the "you must have more than one player" hirelings insufficient.
yes, I know you can do necro 1(burning heart) through a variety of ways but pretty much only on an arcane.

Wraith_Sarevok
02-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Necro 2 is pretty up there for me. It's god-awfully slow, long, and annoying due to the sheer mass of incorporeal undead they throw at you.

Necro 3 is long and sort of annoying. Tormented isn't *too* bad, but it can be if you don't know the tricks to it. Blighted can be a bit long but if you move fast and bring Lesser Restore potions, it goes easier.

Vale of Twilight are not annoying, but they are long quests. Coalescence Chamber is easily one of the longest quests in the game due to all the backtracking and running around slogging through mobs. Rainbow is still annoying to me, but it's not really hard. Sleeping Dust is annoying to everyone with the stupid spider condition that bugs out on you. Running with the Devils has some of the most grating mobs in the game: the Ghaele. They self-heal, have DR, and hit you with irresistible light attacks unless you're carrying one of those ultra-rare light absorption items.

Threnal isn't too bad as a whole, but some of the quests can be downright painful. It is definitely the worst chain in the game because you just don't feel like you're accomplishing anything. At least Necro 2 has Shadow Crypt at the end waiting for you! Protect Coyle is easily the worst quest in the game to solo. Near-impossible on some builds. With a group, it's not bad. The long slogging quests through oozes is terrible: It's so boring and can easily break all of your non-everbright weapons.

Sorrowdusk is slightly annoying due to all the walking but overall I like it. Lots of diversity to keep you preoccupied.

I think overall, Necropolis is my least favorite chain and Threnal is slightly better. Necro is just a huge pain to sit through. Threnal you run once to get your Mantle and you're done with it, but Necro you have to constantly re-run for the rewards on each TR.

MRMechMan
02-26-2012, 11:08 PM
snip necro snip

Maybe if you decide to do every full chain to unlock the crypts...but generally

Necro pack is money on a TR.

Necro1 has immortal heart and bloody crypt...easily a level right there.
Necro2 has shadow knight and shadow crypt...definitely a level right there. skip the bad ones get an opener.
Necro3 I don't have...got guestpassed once and wasn't impressed
Necro4 has ghosts, vol, fleshmaker...even inferno can be decent XP. And of course litany. Easily 1 level there maybe even 1.5 if you grind a bit, even on double TR.

So 3-4 levels from necro, and all quests under 6 minutes that you'll be farming.

Micron
02-27-2012, 05:49 AM
In my book, Tangleroot has been hands down the stupidest chain for the last 6 years. Yey for running through the same quest 11 times. I really hate repetition and opening the same doors and killing the same mobs over and over again is just frustrating. If it didn't drop the Visor, I would never come anywhere near it.

CoT6 is a close second, what with having to run back and forth through the jungle like an idiot if you want to advance the quest.

Ivan_Milic
02-27-2012, 07:11 AM
Threnal,dont even need to explain why.

MRMechMan
02-27-2012, 07:31 AM
In my book, Tangleroot has been hands down the stupidest chain for the last 6 years. Yey for running through the same quest 11 times. I really hate repetition and opening the same doors and killing the same mobs over and over again is just frustrating. If it didn't drop the Visor, I would never come anywhere near it.



http://i.imgur.com/NuMJ4.jpg (http://imgur.com/NuMJ4)

And the part after that with sprint boost is about 4.2k in 0 minutes.

I get why people hate it though (they shut the portculis again, F*%#ing hobgoblins!) but DW clickie and 1-2k xp/minute makes it worth it IMO. Just sayin' :D

Bogenbroom
02-27-2012, 07:51 AM
OPs experience with Co6... depends on the LFM. If the LFM does not *explicitly* say "Not running GMW" then the fault is with the leader, not the party. Or, at least, had the first quest in part 2 selected. Co6 had long been shorthand for the entire string. That might be less true these days, but it is still far from false.

Threnal : I love Threnal. One of my favorite areas in the game, but it certainly could use some TLC (again.) As someone pointed out, it was end game when it was designed, so the flagging mechanics were less of an issue. As PUG fodder it just doesn't work now as low-mid level content. W3 needs an XP boost, as it is the hardest part of the whole series (on elite at least) and E3 is, well, E3. Hell I would be fine with it if the XP reflected the difficulty/annoyance level. That and the level breakdown needs to be tweaked to deal with Bravery streaks.

Necro : I have grown to like Necro I. Excellent XP, can be a bit slow, but still not bad. Necro II and III are hit and miss.

Love It or Hate It : Map repetition... (ala Tangleroot) I actually am a fan. I like the idea of delving in a bit further each time. Yeah, I won't argue the logic of them being able to repopulate the fortress in the 45 seconds it took me to get the next part of the quest and get back in, but I still enjoy it.

Most hated chain... Amrath. Just personal taste, I just don't care for the content. Mechanics are fine, just don't enjoy it.

FuzzyDuck81
02-27-2012, 11:00 AM
storyline, setting etc i really like threnal too, but the frankly horiffic NPCs & buggy flagging really kill it for me. One pack thats 100% in need of a proper overhaul to make it fun.

Llewndyn
02-27-2012, 03:36 PM
So this past weekend I ran Necro 2 elite at level Saturday and Threnal elite at level Sunday.

And the winner of Worst Chain to run is....

Necro II.

Threnal was terrible. It took forever, Coyle is just as annoying as I remember, every time someone joined we had to start over and ended up doing West twice, someone accidentally clicked on reset in East, we left him... terrible. But at the end I enjoyed the loot and felt like playing more.

Necropolis II on elite, not so much. 6 hours total. Not...even....kidding. 3 people new to the chain, an influx of random people who would join and then not stay, absolutely awful. We get to Shadow Crypt, get through that in about 15 minutes... and I did not want to play the game anymore. I was so frustrated it's not even funny. The mechanics are stupid, the water part takes FOREVER and has almost no mobs, why is there a shrine that you have to reach through the bars to use? The one with the lights was mind boggling frustrating (when the idea is to pull mobs to the lights and then fight them there, why randomly have traps in odd places and walls you can go through with NO indication that there is something to go through and a wall you can climb up with no ladder UURRGGHH!!)... and then there's the one with the needed split up. That one, I think it's Shadow Lord, is the worst, the worst quest in that ENTIRE chain (yes, even worse than the water one), and makes me sad on the inside. The worst part is a lot of people really enjoy some of those, but those people are never logged on when I wanna run em :P

herzkos
02-28-2012, 10:04 AM
A trick to make this easier is to click on the lever to unlock it, but then move before you actually pull on it. It remains unlocked. Then, you can trade the gear over, and both people pull at once. This also works if you have a hireling. You'll just have to unlock the side one, position the hireling on that, then go back to the middle.

It's still a frustrating mechanic, but there are ways around the latency/lag.

Awesome bit of advice there about the hireling! So hard to get parties for the craptastic nature of that chain
that soloing it makes it much easier to unlock the last quest.

Sarisa
02-28-2012, 10:11 AM
Awesome bit of advice there about the hireling! So hard to get parties for the craptastic nature of that chain
that soloing it makes it much easier to unlock the last quest.

Thank MrCow actually. It's shown in one of his videos how to effectively solo it with a hireling.

herzkos
02-28-2012, 10:24 AM
Thank MrCow actually. It's shown in one of his videos how to effectively solo it with a hireling.

Ahhhh, shoulda figured something so sneaky woulda come from him. . .

Thanks MrCow. Must be getting tired of hearing that though.

Ikuryo
03-04-2012, 12:38 PM
Snip

Tomb of the Forbidden. You only have a few seconds to pull a lever, pass an item through a gate to another player in trade, and have them pull a second lever before yours resets? Oh, *that's* fun. Especially when trade windows can take 3-5 seconds to pop up from the time you smack the button. Hooray for Cannith Crafting or Server Load or whatever causes that! This quest and Tomb of the Blighted could both be very easily "fixed" if there were two gears in Forbidden and each member of the party could pick up vials in Blighted. Such small changes and suddenly they're PUG-friendly.
items they needed for the next portion.

Snip

You don't make sure that everyone in the party has vials in Tomb of the Blighted?
... pass the bag of vials around to everyone in the party and have them collect a stack. Quest takes almost no time with a couple minutes training new people.

Never had an issue in there.

To be on topic. I agree that Therenal needs to be broken up. Last couple times I was trying to run this half the party was new to it and they reset the chain at each part and never got access to south.

Hobgoblin
03-04-2012, 12:58 PM
You don't make sure that everyone in the party has vials in Tomb of the Blighted?
... pass the bag of vials around to everyone in the party and have them collect a stack. Quest takes almost no time with a couple minutes training new people.

Never had an issue in there.

also, undead are immune to the rot part.

makes it easy on a pm.

hob

Drekisen
03-04-2012, 01:32 PM
I would like to share a story, then quantify which chains that, unless you are willing to start over, you will NEVER fill up a group for.

Last night, join a Co6 Elite run. The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash, so I figured traps were covered. I get in, tell him I will buff and head to the caves, and he reiterates it's just Co6. D'oh! I had spaced that. Couple other people had as well, as they piped up at that point saying no one had flagged for it. Leader is annoyed, which I understand, and we go in and do the Sorrowdusk part.

It's going really well, TBH, sub 4 minute runs on everything, Get to Co6, go through the first 2 there, even though he said something about how he hadn't planned on running the other chain and how he didn't like us infringing on his time I figure 12 extra minutes to get people flagged can't impact his playtime too much... get to the big temple and he ragequits. In the middle of everything. Just leaves. As you all know, this was right before the one with all the mephits and fire traps. On elite. and the highest level amongst us was 9, the sorc I think. We had a couple toons with sub-100 HP.

Long story slightly shorter, we finish, out of a full group at the beginning just me and the sorc at the end, but it got me to thinking. What quest chains do you run that you know the only chance of getting a group together is to restart? Off the top of my head I am thinking:

Catacombs
Tangleroot
Sorrowdusk/ Co6

I can't think of any others. Even like Delera's has good enough XP you can jump in at any time and run them, and the necro ones and VON and all that are non-sequential... Did this guy getting annoyed and ragequitting for us wasting 12 minutes of his time have merit? I know he had Co6 in the LFM and me and 3 others ignored this, but was I in the wrong or was he?

EDIT: ROFL, Wrong area to post this. I am too lazy to move it though.

Honestly....I don't see how you are mentioning any of those three chains seeing as how they are all completely solo-able even on elite......especially with a well geared toon and a hireling.

I'd have to say just about one of the only quests aside from raids of course would be Fleshmaker's, and that's if you had a small party to begin with.

If you disregarded the LFM notes you were 100% in the wrong...sorry.

Also I know not everyone wants to do this but you can always just get a gold seal rogue if traps are an obstacle...they are not to expensive...honestly tho I am not sure how well they do on elite traps.

One issue is the current state of the game.....party starts to fall apart instead of people going into tactical mode...they go into crybaby mode and start sniveling about how much xp/minute they are losing.

I find nothing more satisfying in this game than a bunch of die-hards that stick it out and RESOURCEFULLY complete a quest...as in NOT chugging a bunch of pots and consumables but using intelligence and ingenuity to make it through a tough situation.....that is what makes great players.....and this game is severely short on those types of players.

The problem with this game is too many people don't play the character they are on....they have their head in the clouds thinking about all the gear they are gonna have end game for that toon or their next 20 builds. As soon as the automation mode is broken and the xp/minute gauges go below normal everything falls apart...it's really quite pathetic.

Llewndyn
03-05-2012, 09:20 AM
Honestly....I don't see how you are mentioning any of those three chains seeing as how they are all completely solo-able even on elite......especially with a well geared toon and a hireling.

I'd have to say just about one of the only quests aside from raids of course would be Fleshmaker's, and that's if you had a small party to begin with.

If you disregarded the LFM notes you were 100% in the wrong...sorry.

Also I know not everyone wants to do this but you can always just get a gold seal rogue if traps are an obstacle...they are not to expensive...honestly tho I am not sure how well they do on elite traps.

One issue is the current state of the game.....party starts to fall apart instead of people going into tactical mode...they go into crybaby mode and start sniveling about how much xp/minute they are losing.

I find nothing more satisfying in this game than a bunch of die-hards that stick it out and RESOURCEFULLY complete a quest...as in NOT chugging a bunch of pots and consumables but using intelligence and ingenuity to make it through a tough situation.....that is what makes great players.....and this game is severely short on those types of players.

The problem with this game is too many people don't play the character they are on....they have their head in the clouds thinking about all the gear they are gonna have end game for that toon or their next 20 builds. As soon as the automation mode is broken and the xp/minute gauges go below normal everything falls apart...it's really quite pathetic.

I love it when you exhale in my direction.

I can see what you did there, you began reading this thread and the sheer awesomesauce that is everything you do clouded the words and twisted them into the worst chains to run because I can't get through them because I don't know how to play the game and am a complete failure in game. This might still be the case, I won't dispute that, that's an argument for another time, but that wasn't the point of this thread. You know what I find satisfying? When people read a thread before responding. Since you didn't do that. I will paraphrase for you because you are a forumite and thus my friend:

I was asking which chains are the hardest to START and then get a pug together HALFWAY through. VON used to be like that but now is much more PUG friendly, as you don't have to do them in order, which is bueno (that's Spanish for good). A terrible chain to try to get a group together in the middle of, in my opinion, is Tangleroot, because it's easy to get stuff out of order and usually if you PUG you have to restart. In my ENTIRE dialog, I said NOTHING about:

1. Quest difficulty
2. resource usage
3. How well geared I am
4. Hireling usage
5. How tough said chains are to solo

None of those came up in my post. I am not sure where you even got those from. Of COURSE I can solo Tangleroot and Catacombs with my eyes closed and my screen turned off using the sheer force of my awesome brainpower... that doesn't mean I WANT to do that EVERY time.

Fleshmakers is a good example of what I was asking for. I did not know it was a tough chain to get a PUG for. Is this because the flagging mechanism or is there another reason?

Once again I thank you for your response and respect you and your opinion greatly.

HungarianRhapsody
03-05-2012, 09:44 AM
None of those came up in my post. I am not sure where you even got those from. Of COURSE I can solo Tangleroot and Catacombs with my eyes closed and my screen turned off using the sheer force of my awesome brainpower... that doesn't mean I WANT to do that EVERY time.

You use your brainpower to solo Tangleroot and Catacombs with your eyes closed and your screen turned off? Noob.

Once you get good at the game, you'll be able to do it without using your brain and with your computer turned off so you can save electricity.

Postumus
03-05-2012, 04:20 PM
As for your other question, you haven't read the lfm, so some anger on the party leaders side is understandable.

Bah, the PL could have said 'no.' He agreed to re-run Sorrowdusk in order to get a full party so he should have left the butt-hurt at the quest entrance.

Re-running a flagging quest so one or two members of the group can finish the chain is pretty common in PUGs I've participated in.

Always re-running Titan so folks can get on the DD island. Can't tell you how many times I've re-run Lordsmarch quests so someone could join the "Eyes of Stone" PUG I've posted.

I'd say the biggest pain for me is re-running the DQ flagging quests b/c someone is ALWAYS missing one of them (and it's never Chamber of Raiyum).

hiryuu42
03-16-2012, 04:35 PM
So this past weekend I ran Necro 2 elite at level Saturday and Threnal elite at level Sunday.

And the winner of Worst Chain to run is....

Necro II.

Worse than Necro 3 with Tomb of the Tormented? I finished N2 and gave up on N3. I'm forced to believe the whole Necro series is a psych experiment to see what aggravation buttons they can push and still get you coming back for more. I might try it again if the Silver Flame vendor start stocking Majors.

Shallowain
03-16-2012, 05:26 PM
My worst 3 are:

1: threnal, everything about it has already been said. To fix it it either needs a serious rework, or they should just make it f2p and abandon it. demanding money for it is rather insulting.

2: Necro 4, the quests aren't even that bad, its the horrendous flagging mechanic. I wouldn't even be too upset if the sigil would be a persistant item like the sigil from restless isles, that way it would at least stay after TR, but every life grinding out 8 pieces, that may or may not drop? where it took me months to get the first (and last) toon flagged because one goddamn sigil peace refused to drop? and that for what? the worst most unpuggable raid in the entire game that was broken from the beginning and gets more broken every update? The only reason I put it not at #1 is that the quests themselves are rather enjoyable and have good loot. although I kinda dislike Inferno, but its fine with a good leader.

3: Restless isles. flagging is fine, but the worthless map and the inability to actually get to the raid in a raid party without gt makes it a pain. could be solved like in Amrath, have to reach the forge once to get a "bind" point where you can teleport to from the foothold, like with the ToD cavern. Worst part about that chain is, that almost nobody runs it. even if you throw up an lfm you barely can fill it and if you try the raid, better get ready for lots of wait combined with serious frustration. A possible solution would be to just make it f2p, but honestly, I can't see the raid being done with most pugs.

honorable mention: The other necro chains. Main problem, is the "reflagging" for the crypts. they should stay permanently accessible once you have done the 4 tombs. the quests themselves are rather hit or miss, some are good some are bad, some horrible. I personally grown to like tormented, I am rather good with the rats now, just need someone to do the traps and kill the trash below.

Xeraphim
03-19-2012, 08:57 AM
I would like to share a story, then quantify which chains that, unless you are willing to start over, you will NEVER fill up a group for.

Last night, join a Co6 Elite run. The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash, so I figured traps were covered. I get in, tell him I will buff and head to the caves, and he reiterates it's just Co6. D'oh! I had spaced that. Couple other people had as well, as they piped up at that point saying no one had flagged for it. Leader is annoyed, which I understand, and we go in and do the Sorrowdusk part.

<Snip>

EDIT: ROFL, Wrong area to post this. I am too lazy to move it though.


I have one of those right now on Argo and let me tell you now: I enjoy Mechanic's INT to damage. I like Arti 6's Battle Engineer. The Ranger part is pure garbage and I want to get its past life.

Mine went Art3, Rog6, Art3, Ranger and hasn't done Co6 so I'm sorry to hear that about a fellow "\/\/TF did I create again?!" build maker.

While flagging is tedious, so long as a player wants XP, they will shut it and deal about not getting that random-loot end reward. If you encounter folks that can't get into a chain because it locks out those not flagged, expect to repeat the living hell out of a few parts of it. Threnal is the WORST about this in my experience as at least 3 hours of time is demanded for the entire chain (unless you have experienced TR XP Zergers comprising the group (Hint: They always get the "Nobody Died." bonus and usually finish in record time with Conquest)), during which you will probably go through at least 3 healers and 2 of any other class due to "random life bullsh**".

Cat'a'combs isn't so bad because folks can join whoever has the quest chain progressing and get the XP. The same is true for Colt of the Sicks.

The Undedd chains are not so awful unless you are a Ranged build in Necro II or a squishy low-will-save character. Yes, Tomb of the Shadow Guard is a 15+ minute Swim with fighting between. It is SO tedious.

The Restless Isles are a must for Titan flagging. The level 11 Twilight Forge quest on Elite with a Tome and Potion is absolutely ludicrous XP, and is well worth the detour so long as your group can follow an internet guide quickly. Getting flagged for the Forge is frustrating if your group gets split up, as the islands are confusing and the maps are broken. The overpowered nature of Ogre Tripleswing that has never been addressed except only in the case that they chain-triplesmash and end up dealing you 1200 damage in 8 seconds combined with Worgs later on that are for some idiotic reason Invisible (and can go Invisible during combat despite Player Character complete inability to do this with Sneak), the Isles can be a cruelly frustrating place.

The Sigil of the Orchard is by far one of the most irritating mechanics I have encountered, predominantly because the quests to get the sigil pieces are very frustrating (one of them is literally impossible to solo or duo with a hireling - Fleshmaker) and Litany of the Dead is little more than an XP farm (and one I would not do without). This, of course, is due to the Abbott Raid being nearly impossible to complete thanks to the extensively excessive overuse of instant death mechanics that cause an entire raid to fail when only one person dies/experiences lag/takes a bio break/gets interrupted by their *#(!@& kids again/etc. I think the Abbott ate Costello to gain his ridiculous power.

If the XP output on Cullt of the Sickxs was increased, it would be worth doing for a TR. If the XP output on Threnal was increased, it would be worth doing for a TR. If the XP for Shadow Crypt in Necro II was reduced, TR land would weep bitterly. If the XP for Chanes of Flaime was increased, we'd likely see TRs stop skipping it and maybe even do ADQ1 and 2 at level Elite.

TheHolyDarkness
03-23-2012, 12:56 AM
Threnal this. Threnal that.

Necro II, Necro III, Restless Isles. Fine I hear you. They all have their issues.

But the worst chain? Well, should that title not go to the one none bothers to play? The one we always fail to remember in its utter lack of incentive? Have you all forgotten? But of course you have.

The worst chain to fill?
























































































Three Barrel Cove.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Matuse
03-23-2012, 07:38 AM
Three Barrel Cove is not a chain.

HungarianRhapsody
03-23-2012, 08:46 AM
Three Barrel Cove.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Why would you bother trying to fill a group for 3BC? Just go solo it or pester one of your guildies into doing it with you.

WizardMerrick
03-23-2012, 09:02 AM
You don't make sure that everyone in the party has vials in Tomb of the Blighted?
... pass the bag of vials around to everyone in the party and have them collect a stack. Quest takes almost no time with a couple minutes training new people.

Hrm. I didn't know you could do that. The few times I've run it, someone in the party always grabs it before me and doesn't pass it around so I had no idea you could.

Thanks for the tip.

Sarzor
03-23-2012, 12:12 PM
Tangleroot is the worst, not because the quests (Threnal takes that) but I feel any chain which cannot be run together has issues. Level 3-7 quests? By time your group can handle the late quests, you get no xp from the first quests. Sure, experienced people can do it, but for a sizable portion of the populace, not-so-much.

At least the Sorrowdusk stuff is broken into two chains.

der_kluge
03-23-2012, 01:39 PM
the worst probably is Sorrowdusk - mostly because of the level spread. I solo'd them in two level blocks, and then amazingly had a couple of other people help on the final part. Though, it's kind of an unwritten rule to do that first hafl early, and then flag for Co6 (which is a reference to the last half, specifically), and then try to find a group for that.

But I agree it's really, really hard.

As a TR, looking to do at level elites, there are several in this category:

Pugging at level Chronoscope is nearly impossible.

Sorrowdusk is a pain.

Threnal, as others have mentioned.

Tangleroot is also hard because of the level range, and the fact that the chain sucks.

I don't typically have a problem with the Catacombs. It's also fairly close in level, and I usually wait for the LFM to fill before we start. This solves the late stragglers problem.

Necro II isn't too bad - the XP is really good, so lots of folks run it.

Filling an LFM for Sentinels is also pretty hard.

Pugging at level "Spies in the House" is next to impossible.

Zyerz
03-23-2012, 01:52 PM
I dont know about "worst" to run, but Catacombs is almost impossible to fill unless you leave the LFM up as you progress. I usually consider a 5 man party run on that to be on the larger side. Luckily most people get stuck on the final fight solo, so they dont mind rerunning some of the others for a completion. :D I really enjoy the Catacombs story and quests. It was the first pack I ever purchased and the only one ever purchased not on sale.

I think the worst chain to get a group for is Necro 1. Nobody ever wants to run that very frequently, and because of the flagging I hate joining an LFM in progress.

Catacumbs is superbly soloable on elite at level. The end fight can get a bit tough, but with some ghost touch weps, makes it easy. And I'm not talking about using a TR or with hirelings. With a well built toon, any class can solo catacumbs.

As for chains? I really hate the sharn syndicate. But I love CO6 and Threnal.

HungarianRhapsody
03-23-2012, 03:06 PM
Tangleroot is the worst, not because the quests (Threnal takes that) but I feel any chain which cannot be run together has issues. Level 3-7 quests? By time your group can handle the late quests, you get no xp from the first quests. Sure, experienced people can do it, but for a sizable portion of the populace, not-so-much.

At least the Sorrowdusk stuff is broken into two chains.

If you start out at level 6, you'll only miss your bravery bonus on the first quest (and you'll still get full XP with no penalties) and you shouldn't have any problem getting through the entire chain on Elite. The last two quests really aren't at all bad once you know how to run through the traps in the final chapter. A full party that has been through the chain at least once or twice before shouldn't have a serious problem on Elite.

...and if you do have a problem getting through the quest on Elite, you can certainly go through on Normal or Hard. There's no law that says everyone has to do every quest on Elite.

karsion
03-24-2012, 12:32 AM
the worst probably is Sorrowdusk - mostly because of the level spread. I solo'd them in two level blocks, and then amazingly had a couple of other people help on the final part. Though, it's kind of an unwritten rule to do that first hafl early, and then flag for Co6 (which is a reference to the last half, specifically), and then try to find a group for that.

But I agree it's really, really hard.

As a TR, looking to do at level elites, there are several in this category:

Pugging at level Chronoscope is nearly impossible.

Sorrowdusk is a pain.

Threnal, as others have mentioned.

Tangleroot is also hard because of the level range, and the fact that the chain sucks.

I don't typically have a problem with the Catacombs. It's also fairly close in level, and I usually wait for the LFM to fill before we start. This solves the late stragglers problem.

Necro II isn't too bad - the XP is really good, so lots of folks run it.

Filling an LFM for Sentinels is also pretty hard.

Pugging at level "Spies in the House" is next to impossible.

Well, maybe Orien is special in that respect but never had problems with getting a group for any of the quests mentioned. Chronoscope is probably the worst cause almost no one runs it for xp and even when we got at level group for Elite Chrono we wiped at Bloodplate.

As a TR most of those quests (except for Chrono and maybe some Necro II stuff) are pretty soloable with a hire on most classes (I can imagine rogues or rangers having some problems).

When talking about difficulty of getting PUGs to run it Threnal is one of the worst (thanks to ******** Coyle quest). Necro may be a little problematic as well (not Necro 4 tho which is run to death for xp and sigils).

Brennie
03-24-2012, 01:20 AM
NecroIII. Hands down. There is not a single quest in necroIII that doesn't make me wish I could punch something small and cute.

QuantumFX
03-24-2012, 01:24 AM
Three Barrel Cove.

Sorry Dude. Nope. Not in a million years.

3BC’s only sin is that it’s P2P. It’s no more difficult than any of the other House D quests. If it was FtP then it would get run just as often as the “Depths of…” series.

Thernal requires you to pay for the privilege to subject yourself to the worst “Escort” quest in the game and actively invites you to eff up your bravery streak while you do so.

Or, to put it another way: I am a favor w****. And I have never brought an over leveled hireling into a 3BC quest so I could complete a single quest, on casual, to maintain my streak.

Ziindarax
03-24-2012, 05:54 AM
Sorry Dude. Nope. Not in a million years.

3BC’s only sin is that it’s P2P. It’s no more difficult than any of the other House D quests. If it was FtP then it would get run just as often as the “Depths of…” series.

Thernal requires you to pay for the privilege to subject yourself to the worst “Escort” quest in the game and actively invites you to eff up your bravery streak while you do so.

Or, to put it another way: I am a favor w****. And I have never brought an over leveled hireling into a 3BC quest so I could complete a single quest, on casual, to maintain my streak.

I'd say Shavarath was, by far, the biggest offender in terms of tempting people to break their streaks to beat a quest. Bastion on Elite is a nightmare, even with an epic party (New Invasion's no picnic either). >.>

FranOhmsford
03-24-2012, 08:29 AM
I'd say Shavarath was, by far, the biggest offender in terms of tempting people to break their streaks to beat a quest. Bastion on Elite is a nightmare, even with an epic party (New Invasion's no picnic either). >.>

Why are you worrying about streaks at lvl 19?

As for the worst chains in the game:

Catacombs - Soloable on elite with hireling - Make certain to take down the Arcane Skelly first in the final quest {He does far more damage than the Wraith of the Bishop.}.

Tangleroot - I usually solo this - 2 lvl 3 quests and 2 lvl 4 quests at lvl 5, 2 lvl 5 quests at lvl 6, 2 lvl 6 quests at lvl 7 etc.

Sorrowdusk - This is a pain - First 4 quests have seriously nasty force traps {seem to have become slightly easier in pt 1 and 2 recently} that require you to pass through before they can be disarmed {Rogue Hire no use here unless you have Evasion / Super High Reflex yourself.}.
No more traps for the next 3 {nice easy} quests - Then you come to the Mephits and some more seriously OP traps.
Final Quest btw is surprisingly easy after doing the Penultimate quest in this chain.

Threnal - Aaaaaaarrrrggh

Necro II - Shadow Knight is Superb XP, Shadow King needs to slow down the respawns, Shadow Guard is just tedious, Shadow Lord is one of the worst quests in the game.
I actually had to lead a party of newbies {favour only - we had a lvl 20 in party} on my lvl 12 Acrobat with no Ghost Touch through this last night - Having learnt the lever mechanics I managed this without splitting the party {hireling teleport ftw} BUT I STILL LOATHE THIS QUEST.

Sentinels - Not really a chain per say - BoB, Storm the Beaches, Black Loch can be done in any order and Spies isn't even required.

Necro III - Barely know it - Too hard to get a group together - Just join Cursed Crypt runs.

Chains of Flame - I actually find Wiz King and OoB to be much more of a pain in the posterior.

I'm going to add Gianthold to the list: Crucible is a nightmare of epic proportions, Madstone has the worst most annoying DM Voiceover in the game once the Giant goes into his "I must Heal" routine, I actually enjoy PoP.
Tor is ridiculously hard to get a group together for {sometimes groups can fill in 90 seconds I'll accept BUT other times I've waited 30 mins before even one person hits the LFM}.
Then we get to a raid which only ever gets run on elite with lvl 20s in the party {I've never seen an LFM for Normal or Hard Reaver's Fate}.
Plus the Slayer is a total pain.

TekkenDevil
03-24-2012, 11:54 AM
Sorrowdusk and Restless Isles are definitely the worst if you ask me.
It's just really hard to PuG them.

Sorrowdusk has a very long spread of level range, to the point where you can't finish the entire chain on one level set, if you're doing Elite difficulty. The first quests are base level 6, while the final quest is base level 11 if I remember correctly. Very inconvenient to have to visit it twice and be properly progressed in the chains.

Restless Isles on the other hand is too confusing. I even soloed it nice and slow once to learn what the hell is going on, but I still forgot everything, from the path to the pre-requisites of being flagged for the raid.

Runner Up: Threnal.
Threnal is pretty easy with a full party. You only need one person that knows what he's doing, really. Threnal's inherent problem is that since it's a lowbie quest, and tucked away with all the other choices of content/quests, it comes down to how long it takes to complete. And completing all 3 sides of Threnal takes forever and ever and ever. Recycled dungeons don't help either.

Gizeh
03-24-2012, 12:09 PM
Necro2 with all its incorporeal and phasing creatures is *very* annoying if you play a melee character.

karsion
03-24-2012, 04:02 PM
Necro2 with all its incorporeal and phasing creatures is *very* annoying if you play a melee character.

Heard about ghost touch? Been hearing it is pretty nice.

Gizeh
03-24-2012, 06:35 PM
Heard about ghost touch? Been hearing it is pretty nice.

Yeah, ghost touch is awesome while all the incorporeals are phased out...

HungarianRhapsody
03-24-2012, 07:20 PM
Yeah, ghost touch is awesome while all the incorporeals are phased out...

Wall of Fire works exactly as well on enemies that are phased out as a Phase Hammer.

cjhume3
03-25-2012, 09:15 AM
The catacombs and the grey moon/cult of six series, since you have to run out and talk to someone after every part.

Drak
03-25-2012, 04:18 PM
I pitty the noob, who would like to do a whole chain. No new toons I only TR, so max xp/min is all I do. I will never do a whole chain, just in parts only the quests I am +2 levels above, and on elite, window farming hard if worth it. Some day everyone will realise it is the only way to go and put up LFM's like 'CO6 pt 1,2 ONLY, elite' or not LFM at all.
As for threnal and coyle being the worst. Great XP with BB for all parts, and unless you have a pot ticking (and who would for that) get a L20 guild FvS to do East 3 on casual for you if you really want chain completion.

QuantumFX
03-25-2012, 07:34 PM
I'd say Shavarath was, by far, the biggest offender in terms of tempting people to break their streaks to beat a quest. Bastion on Elite is a nightmare, even with an epic party (New Invasion's no picnic either). >.>

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I purchased a Level 13 hireling from the DDO store just so I could run Hold for Reinforcements on Casual. With Amrath, you can at least get capped guildies to run with you. (Since there is no way, currently, to overlevel those quests.)

Uhtred_Stark
03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
Tangleroot and Co6 have tremendous xp when windowed, I almost always hit those. I actually like Catacombs now, pretty good xp on elite with streaks etc and the whole chain can be done in under an hour. I would actually say Catacombs is a fairly perfect chain, good xp for level, can be completed in reasonable amt of time, great storyline, all enemies makes sense and have synergy.

Worst would be Three Barrell Cove....the quests are terrible, there is just so much competing xp at the level there is rarely any reason to do them. The aforementioned Threnal for all the reasons listed above plus it is competing with the Shadow Crypt and Von3 for xp at level, really no reason to run it. The IQ quests are starting to get hard to fill now that you don't need pieces to unsupress items vs just getting crystal ones from the DD quest turn in.

decease
03-25-2012, 10:00 PM
threnal is on top of my list.. sadly i have to solo it on every toon for dm set.

MorningStarSE
03-26-2012, 07:55 AM
TBC, Catacombs and Threnal are those I dislike. (and also didn't buy).

No issue with the other chains yet.

Xeraphim
03-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Three Barrel Cove.


For shame! Wash your mouth out with soap young man!

..."We dare not speak it's name."
"What's it's name"
"Oh! We dare not speak it."
~Invader Zim, Episode 1. Quotes from the Tallest and Zim exchanging words regarding a "secret mission."

Having kids around sure fills me with worthless information :D

Grieve
03-26-2012, 02:21 PM
So let's see what do we have for quest chains (assuming atleast 3 quests and one cannot be accessed before the other).

WW - Easy with/without group. Everyone has done it and it is quick. (Pain Rating 1/10)

Catacombs - Can be solo'd, but much easier with group. The fourth quest in chain is painfully long for the XP and level. Also, there is alot of running up and down stairs. Otherwise it isn't too bad, especially with the Bravery Bonus now. (Pain Rating 5/10)

StK - Again very similar to WW, but may require a rogue for pt3 on Elite to survive. (Pain Rating 2/10)

Sharn Syndicate - Mostly quick runs. Can be solo'd, but a group is better. Saving the Binder family on elite may be painful to accomplish. Lots of running around the marketplace and of course the XP is really lacking. (Pain Rating 6/10)

TR - Quick, easy, and mostly painless with/without group. It is excellent experience for time spent. Only issues are the initial run out and the level breadth of the chain, 5 levels. (Pain Rating 3/10)

Necro I - Quests are fairly quick to run, but require a party to be efficiently run, one quest needs a party to complete and almost no one will run at level due to better options. Must re-flag for Bloody Crypt after each completion, unless with party window farming. (Pain Rating 7/10)

Carnival - Quests can take some time to complete, but decent XP. Partycrashers on elite at level is painful to say the least. A party is not required, but it will be very slow and not worthwhile solo. Recommend doing chain at level 20 on Epic instead of at level on Elite. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Sentinels - Mostly quick and semi-painless with/without party. Experience is somewhat lacking compared to other quests at level. Must run a long way to reach Bargain of Blood. Storming the Beaches has no Epic version. Only run for players wanting House D favor. (Pain Rating 3/10)

Deleras - Great XP, but requires a party or at least a hireling to complete pt2. Run by almost every player though making parties easy to come by. There was a flagging issue in the past going from pt3 to pt4, but with this fixed and more direction given on the chain it is not really an issue. (Pain Rating 2/10)

Necro II - Can be solo'd, with Hireling, but much more efficient with party. Also, normally requires at least one arcane caster to be done efficiently. Amazing XP for level. Finding your way in one or two of the quests can be a pain. Must re-flag for Shadow Crypt after each completion, unless with party window farming. (4/10)

VoN - Good XP. Flagging quests may be solo'd or completed with a group. Grouping is required for raid portion and flagging mechanism may fall through occasionally. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Threnal - XP is reasonable. The chain is in an out of the way location. Extremely long chain with some of the most annoying quests in game. The progression of the quests is not easy to follow unless players know the chain and can easily be reset making it frustrating to complete the entire chain. May be completed with/without party, but much easier with a party. (Pain Rating 9/10)

Grey Moon & CO6 - Fairly long chain, but numerous quick quests with reasonable XP. Lots of running around, but may be circumvented partially with a caster with DDoor. Chain is somewhat out of the way. Traps encountered can be party ending. Nonetheless chain may be done with/without party. (Pain Rating 5/10)

Restless Isles - Raid Flagging quests may be solo'd, but raid requires a party. Very few players run the quest. Explorer map is horrible to navigate. XP is reasonable. (Pain Rating 7/10)

Necro III - Requires a party to complete the chain. Quests can be very painful and sometimes frustrating with certain traps and quest mechanics (Trading items quickly and guiding rats). Even with the time investment of quests, the XP is still decent. (Pain Rating 5/10)

Sands - Can be solo'd if necessary. Overall decent chain excluding Chains of Flame. Also, somewhat annoying to keep track of flagging items that may easily be destroyed for the raid. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Attack on Stormreach I - May be completed with/without a party. Good XP. Requires party members to have done previous quests in chain to even be able to enter later quests, which can be a nuisance. (Pain Rating 3/10)

Attack on Stormreach II - May be completed with/without a party. Great XP. Undermine can be painful and slow if not handled well. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Gianthold - Decent XP. Cannot be solo'd effectively. Crucible relies mainly on a single character normally to complete the quest, but needs others around. Tor requires a party to complete and flag for the raid. (Pain Rating 6/10)

Necro IV - Flagging process is long though may be done solo. Litany bosses, specifically Cholthulzz, can be excruciating painful without certain builds or items. Excellent experience out of the quests. Though Fleshmaker's Lab requires multiple players, or a good hireling. Not going to touch the raid for now. (Pain Rating 5/10)

Harbinger of Madness - May be completed with/without party. Decent Experience. Directions are straightforward. (Pain Rating 2/10)

Vale - Flagging can be solo'd. Good XP. Coalescence Chamber can be frustrating with the jumping physics. Everyone will runs this chain. (Pain Rating 2/10)

Web of Chaos - Still somewhat new so going to leave this one alone. (Pain Rating ?/10)

Reign of Madness - Cannot Comment effectively on this chain, but assuming the lack of good or bad comments it seems to be a reasonable chain. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Reaver's Refuge - Can be solo'd. Excellent XP. Must spend extra time collecting certain items outside of quests to flag. (Pain Rating 3/10)

Inspiration Quarter - Can be solo'd. Decent XP. Must complete specific quests before accessing further quests in chain. (Pain Rating 4/10)

Dreaming Dark - Can be solo'd. Great XP. Must complete Eye of the Titan before accessing further quests in chain. (Pain Rating 3/10)

Shavarath - Requires party to flag. Mostly Decent XP. Dungeon Alert issues with two of the quests make flagging on higher difficulties frustrating. (Pain Rating 5/10)

Secrets of the Artificers - May be completed with/without party. Low XP. Fairly straight forward. (Pain Rating 4/10)


Anything I rated greater than 5 could probably be considered for a some reworking. Though, these ratings are all just my opinion of course.

A few stand out mechanics that can be frustrating...
* Allowing unintentional Quest Chain resetting.
* Preventing players from entering a quest due to not completing a prior quest in chain for first time even if party is on the quest in question. (Exceptions are raids of course.)
* Heavy party member requirements/reliance.
* Easily disposable or innocuous required collectibles for flagging.
* Hard to follow maps

Isolani
04-05-2012, 08:30 AM
Just came back to the game recently after a bit of a break and started up an artificer TR. Ran most of the chains. Skipped Threnal because it is awful. But I found necro IV to be a pain now too. Fleshmakers is horrible with the air elementals being back to their old ridiculous selves. Fleshmakers was an ok xp run with the weak air elementals, but now it is infuriating to do this solo + hireling. I don't mind the knockdown, which has a save, but getting constantly thrown off the catwalks by the no save knockback just makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my pc.

Then when you clear the elementals and have a short time window to get your hireling to help you light runes, you have to fight with your hireling's horrible AI...like when you tell them to activate a rune and for some reason they run off in the wrong direction then just stop and stand there. Or it will run up to the rune and then tell you it's too far away to activate. And by the time you actually get the hireling to do something, the elementals have respawned.

Also, the 4 random sigil pieces are harder to find now, since I seem to find the quest specific one almost every time I run these now. I did 8 temple of Vol runs and got 8 of the Vol sigil pieces for instance...that makes it pretty freakin hard to get the random ones. I had to ransack GoP, Vol, Fleshamakers, and then got the 1 random piece I needed on my 4th Inferno run. Not looking forward to doing this again next life. I wish they would just add a chance for these to appear in the completion reward list or something. I may just skip litany flagging next life, no way I'm running 25+ quests just to get 1 sigil piece again.

They have added that crafting thing to Necro IV now, would it really have been that hard to put in a recipe to let us exchange 2 or 3 of a sigil piece for 1 of a different one. Because having 8 temple of vol sigil pieces and zero of the center frame piece isn't really helping me.

Anyway, Necro IV isn't the worst, but it isn't one of my favorites anymore either. I thought I read in an update note that they had changed the drops for necro IV chests, but if anything, litany flagging seems worse than ever to me. I never had to do that many quests for 1 piece before.

jevon66
04-28-2012, 12:18 PM
Threnal! Coyle is a suicidal maniac bent on achieving Nirvana through sheer tenacity alone. He is, of course, doomed to failure in his goal as he learns nothing from one life to the next.


OMG!! One of the funniest comments i have ever read on here, my cubicle neighbor thinks im unbalanced now b/c of the extended chuckles, thanks for that.

zorander6
04-28-2012, 04:53 PM
Threnal without a doubt. However, I get annoyed by any of the escort quests. "OH save me brave adventurer, and I'll help you by attacking anything I see without any weapons."

Seriously? Coyle is the worst about this but darn near any person you have to rescue will just charge straight into battle or that trap you hadn't disabled yet. The only reason to run it is for the Mantle and honestly I've only gotten the Mantle on one character. Haven't bothered with any of the others.

Spoonwelder
04-30-2012, 09:29 AM
Just came back to the game recently after a bit of a break and started up an artificer TR. Ran most of the chains. Skipped Threnal because it is awful. But I found necro IV to be a pain now too. Fleshmakers is horrible with the air elementals being back to their old ridiculous selves. Fleshmakers was an ok xp run with the weak air elementals, but now it is infuriating to do this solo + hireling. I don't mind the knockdown, which has a save, but getting constantly thrown off the catwalks by the no save knockback just makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my pc.

Then when you clear the elementals and have a short time window to get your hireling to help you light runes, you have to fight with your hireling's horrible AI...like when you tell them to activate a rune and for some reason they run off in the wrong direction then just stop and stand there. Or it will run up to the rune and then tell you it's too far away to activate. And by the time you actually get the hireling to do something, the elementals have respawned.

Also, the 4 random sigil pieces are harder to find now, since I seem to find the quest specific one almost every time I run these now. I did 8 temple of Vol runs and got 8 of the Vol sigil pieces for instance...that makes it pretty freakin hard to get the random ones. I had to ransack GoP, Vol, Fleshamakers, and then got the 1 random piece I needed on my 4th Inferno run. Not looking forward to doing this again next life. I wish they would just add a chance for these to appear in the completion reward list or something. I may just skip litany flagging next life, no way I'm running 25+ quests just to get 1 sigil piece again.

They have added that crafting thing to Necro IV now, would it really have been that hard to put in a recipe to let us exchange 2 or 3 of a sigil piece for 1 of a different one. Because having 8 temple of vol sigil pieces and zero of the center frame piece isn't really helping me.

Anyway, Necro IV isn't the worst, but it isn't one of my favorites anymore either. I thought I read in an update note that they had changed the drops for necro IV chests, but if anything, litany flagging seems worse than ever to me. I never had to do that many quests for 1 piece before.

The sigil pieces now drop in any of the rare's chests in the Orchard. So farm those for awhile for taps and you will likely fill in you gaps. I have just farmed the orchard for 1500 kills and got all but 2 of the sigils, enough taps to choke an undead horse and a few shield fragments and tome pages too.

But on topic - yes Fleshmakers is now almost unbeatable solo even duo is hard - but 3 or more and it is nearly trivial.

IllOracle
04-30-2012, 10:53 AM
#4 Restless Isle (Lots of foot traffic)
#3 Tangleroot Gorge (Good xp but mindless and so blasted repetitive)
#2 Threnal (We all know the story here)
#1 The entire instance of Three Barrel Cove ("...We hates it, Precious!")

I've only run Tangleroot and Threnal for the gear. When I do make the favor run again I'll go back out to 3barrel, but I can understand Threnal being #1 and endorse the sentiment. I think the thread as a whole speaks a loudly enough request for change... post the new release.

Machination
04-30-2012, 11:36 AM
Well, in my mind here are the chains that I don't see posted very often at level:

1. Sentinels
2. Carnival
3. Sharn Syndicate (to a lesser extent by far than the two above)

And, in the current trend of the day being to TR often, the quests in the chains above except for an odd exception here and there are not great xp per min, and don't really offer anything interesting for rewards or renown above and beyond the norm. I can't find any desire to run these when bringing up a TR, and if I go by general LFM postings, I just don't see them up often at level. Its almost a rarity to see them posted. Sentinels in particular is really probably my vote as worst in the game, (discounting 3 barrel cove but that thing is so dated and weak I'm just assuming its not even worth listing here!)

Now there are a lot of rants out there about Threnal. I like Threnal, and I do actually run the full chain every other life or so just for fun. Also, the Mantle is great on a TR, especially now that the trinket spot is ever so full of better goodies to put in there rather than slot voice. As a pure XP farm, its not worth it to do the whole chain though. But, I still like it as a run now and again.

as for Co6, I think its a great chain, I run it every life just for the metal type staves that drop on chain end reward (hence the nickname Cult of the Stix)......those things rock if you are a crafter....they always come in handy as a DR breaker or undead beater for low levels and any class can use them and they are bound to account making them very handy. Same with Catacombs.

As for Tangleroot, this is something I do every life for the XP, its a grind, and XP farm grind..that's it...its not about the fun of it, its a pure XP grind that puts out a lot of XP per min if done correctly.

I saw comments in this thread about Necro IV. Nothing to complain about here even Fleshmakers with a mediocre party on elite at level is trivial. Its just not easy to solo, so what post a PUG its no big deal.

Now Necro III as how blade barrier from hires no longer makes Tormented trivial, I will probably skip its just too much time to mess with now.








I would like to share a story, then quantify which chains that, unless you are willing to start over, you will NEVER fill up a group for.

Last night, join a Co6 Elite run. The leader was a rogue/ arti/ ranger splash, so I figured traps were covered. I get in, tell him I will buff and head to the caves, and he reiterates it's just Co6. D'oh! I had spaced that. Couple other people had as well, as they piped up at that point saying no one had flagged for it. Leader is annoyed, which I understand, and we go in and do the Sorrowdusk part.

It's going really well, TBH, sub 4 minute runs on everything, Get to Co6, go through the first 2 there, even though he said something about how he hadn't planned on running the other chain and how he didn't like us infringing on his time I figure 12 extra minutes to get people flagged can't impact his playtime too much... get to the big temple and he ragequits. In the middle of everything. Just leaves. As you all know, this was right before the one with all the mephits and fire traps. On elite. and the highest level amongst us was 9, the sorc I think. We had a couple toons with sub-100 HP.

Long story slightly shorter, we finish, out of a full group at the beginning just me and the sorc at the end, but it got me to thinking. What quest chains do you run that you know the only chance of getting a group together is to restart? Off the top of my head I am thinking:

Catacombs
Tangleroot
Sorrowdusk/ Co6

I can't think of any others. Even like Delera's has good enough XP you can jump in at any time and run them, and the necro ones and VON and all that are non-sequential... Did this guy getting annoyed and ragequitting for us wasting 12 minutes of his time have merit? I know he had Co6 in the LFM and me and 3 others ignored this, but was I in the wrong or was he?

EDIT: ROFL, Wrong area to post this. I am too lazy to move it though.

Alrik_Fassbauer
04-30-2012, 03:15 PM
Personally, I love Tangleroot.

But I'm - on the other hand - still fairly new to the game. I don't even own all of the packs.

achitophel
05-01-2012, 03:30 AM
Seriously? Coyle is the worst about this but darn near any person you have to rescue will just charge straight into battle or that trap you hadn't disabled yet.

Zerg all the quests! My kind of NPC ~ Just soloed the chain last night, i would say the only thing that needs to be changed is the base xp - ~3k with streak and xp tome is ridiculous for 15 mins.