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Cyr
02-20-2012, 11:09 AM
Here is my grab bag of cannith crafting related suggestions...


Add a retention chance of keeping ingredients used during a recipe. This chance would be based upon your cannith crafting level compared to the recipe level. This would allow for a lower risk method of introducing more accessible (read lower level) recipes while still making leveling a valuable thing to do in the system.
Crafting Tomes. These would be kept through TRs like other tomes and would have different flavors such as increasing your retention chance, increasing your effective level in a school, and decreasing your failure chance. Make these drop from raid/epic chests based upon the power of the tome.
Recipes dropping from raids/epics/named chests. These would be eaten and retained through TRs like tomes. These would not be single use recipes. These recipes would have more exotic powers such as dodge +3 (suggested recipe would require any item with a +3 dodge bonus on it, X siberysis, Y essences of the appropriate type). Make these only work for BtA shards so players still have to get their named loot themselves.
Recipes to put a material type modifier on an item. I would suggest these be available as drops from MA with required ingredients of any item with that metal type on it and obligatory essenses.
Recipes to add an additionally prefix/suffix.
Recipes to add craftable +X to any item not already having such a modifier. These would be raid/epic loot.
Recipe of Festivault attunment. This recipe makes any festivault modifiers on this item not count towards it's total potential or increase it's ML. Random drop during festivault.
Recipe of Ritual Attunment. This recipe makes any ritual from the stone of change not count towards total potential or increase the ML of the item.
Minor Recipe of Shard Imbuing. This recipe adds the ability to add the powers from an imbued shard of power to your item with craftable +X. Adding shards of power to an item uses up three points of potential and increases it's ML accordingly. Rinse repeat for other shard sizes with different amounts of potential used up for each. Add these as very rare drops from high level content.
Recipe of Colorless Slot Transmutation. This recipe changes a colorless slot to add +2 max. potential to the item. If the item does not already have craftable +X this adds craftable +2. Rinse repeat for other slots with varying potential added depending upon the slot used up. These would be rare drops from epic chests and other high level named chests.
Recipe of Least Potential Savings. This recipe reduces the cost in potential of the highest potential used on this item by one and likewise reduces the items ML. This recipe is replaced by higher potential savings recipes.
Recipe of Unslotted Power. This recipe is applied to an already made shard before it is put on an item. It then applies the modifier 'unslotted' to the shard which increases the potential on it by one and makes it so that the power does not use up a prefix/suffix/or other new slot on the item. There would still be a hard limit on the number of powers that could modify a cannith crafted item based upon the total potential available. This should be a BtA recipe only and be part of the normal cannith crafting available to everyone.
Recipes of Past Life Rememberance. These recipes each refer to a seperate past life and grant the bonus of one passive past life feat of that type. They count as ritual slots (force ritual, saves ritual...) and add to potential/ML of the item in question. These do not stack with themselves, but do stack with other past life feats from actual past lives.
I should note that none of the above should be single use recipes. Cannith crafting is designed as a system which avoids this sort of thing intentionally.

Cyr
08-27-2012, 03:49 PM
More suggestions...


Make every random loot gen modifier craftable. There are lots of new loot gen powers yet cannith crafting was not expanded to include these new desirable powers.
Recipes to make an item count as one part of a particular set bonus. IE, this recipe makes the item act as part of the Knight's Loyalty set. These should be rare drop/raid loot recipes. Again no single use recipes in game. Once used on a toon they grant that recipe permanently. Depending upon the set this could take up different 'slots' even something interesting like a colorless slot.
Recipe of Yellow Slotting: This recipe adds a colorless slot to an item without any slots. The items ML is increased by two when slotted.
Recipe of {Red/Blue} Slotting: This recipe adds a {blue/red} slot to an item without any slots. The items ML is increased by three when slotted.
Recipe of {Orange/Violet/Green} Slotting: This recipe adds a {orange/violet/green} slot to an item without any slots. The items ML is increased by four when slotted. Note all these slotting recipes are seperate ones for an individual color epic slot.
Recipe of Festivault Slotting: This recipe allows a named item to be slotted with a festival upgrade and increases the ML of the item by two when slotted. Only one festival upgrade can be put on an item. Any further upgrades will replace the old one.
Recipe of Tome Upgrading +{X} of {Y}: These recipes would be rare drops/raid drops which allowed you to make either BtA or BtC (depending upon the recipe) upgrade tomes of a specific stat. These would require that the person using the tome already have the previous + of tome eaten. So a +3 upgrade tome of charisma would require that the person first have eaten a +2 tome of charisma. These would provide alternative methods using hard to aquire ingredients to (including the recipe) aquire tomes. Possible ingredients include things like 5 tomes of the weaker version to make the next plus version.
Potion Recipes: Stacks of 100 created. Basic potion types available to everyone with higher CL potions and more exotic potions like the sp ones, xp pots, and slayer boost ones having rare drop/raid drop recipes with some more expensive ingredients/rare ingredients.
Scroll Recipes: Stacks of 100 created. As potions...
Mass production recipes. Basically these would be recipes that created many shards of the same type, but with much higher crafting level to create them and some savings in cannith crafting ingredients by using the mass version. Would help fill out the tables for leveling purposes.
'Knock off' recipes. Essentially named item duplication recipes that take up either prefix/suffix slots with appropriate ML bump for the original item. These would be rare/raid recipes with rare ingredients to create which include at least one of the original item (3 if flexible or unbound recipe is being used). These would be big deals, because they would allow consolidation of many powers in a single suffix/prefix with a good ML and option to slot in different slots in some cases. An example would be...

Brute Strength Knock off Shard: Ingredients: Belt of Brute Strength, 100 lesser body essenses, 10 greater body essenses, 100 siberysis junk, 3 purified dragonshards. Prefix. Applies to belt, bracers, armor, or ring. +5 Potential used up when applied to an item. Adds Greater False Life and Strength +6. Cannith Crafting Level 150 Arcane. BtA shard created. Recipe drops from the titan raid chest and as a very rare drop from any level 16+ chest.
Brute Strength Knock Off Shard (unbound shard recipe): Ingredients: same as above *3. Grants same bonuses. Drops same places. Cannith Crafting Level 200 Arcane.

Raid Timer Reset Token Recipe: Expensive in cannith ingredient recipe for BtA version with rare drop unbound recipe. Turns the store money grab into an actual convience item by providing a reasonable method of aquiring it outside of the store.

zeichen-thest
08-27-2012, 08:33 PM
I don't like anything that you said apart from finding recipes.


I do think that having found special recipes would be cool. IT would make for a variety of crafting expertise.

Some of the new gen. stuff has some cool untyped dmg. That would be nice to find rare recipes that have that on it. Again BTA is the best.

***Add toughness to epic crafting and Cannith***


I would like some more combinations and recipes. Or the ability for flexible to be flexible as to their suffix or prefix. If random loot can have 2 suffixess why not player crafted?

Silverwren
08-28-2012, 11:41 AM
Recipes to add an additionally prefix/suffix.

This may already be in the works. I've seen non-named items with two prefixes and two suffixes during deconstruction.

As for the rest of it, I have to be honest:

I think your suggestions would make people run screaming from any and all Cannith crafting.

If all these were implemented the system would become so complicated that very few people would bother with it (that includes me, and I've been at it since it was introduced). Cannith crafting is already a bit much to understand (I know, because I've taught classes in my guild on how to Cannith craft and I've heard the comments from my students) particularly if you're new to it.

While I appreciate that you put a lot of time and thought into your suggestions, and stated your case quite nicely, I can't get on board with this.

Cyr
08-29-2012, 10:50 AM
This may already be in the works. I've seen non-named items with two prefixes and two suffixes during deconstruction.

As for the rest of it, I have to be honest:

I think your suggestions would make people run screaming from any and all Cannith crafting.

If all these were implemented the system would become so complicated that very few people would bother with it (that includes me, and I've been at it since it was introduced). Cannith crafting is already a bit much to understand (I know, because I've taught classes in my guild on how to Cannith craft and I've heard the comments from my students) particularly if you're new to it.

While I appreciate that you put a lot of time and thought into your suggestions, and stated your case quite nicely, I can't get on board with this.

I would state that expanding the power of the system would most certainly not have people avoiding the system.

Power always has people use a system. Greensteel crafting was unintituive and annoying to use, but was the most popular form of crafting in the game because it was powerful.

UI improvements would of course be highly desirable for this sort of thing (and even without any expansions could be implemented) such as...


Shard clearly lists prefix/suffix/whatever speciality slot it uses up.
Powers on items clearly lists that it is a prefix/suffix/whatever
Unused slots on items are clearly listed. IE, empty prefix slot.

Silverwren
08-29-2012, 12:46 PM
I would state that expanding the power of the system would most certainly not have people avoiding the system.

While I will admit you're correct that it would draw in some players, I think many more will be turned away by how confusing the system would be. There's something to be said for the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) system. Mind you, I'm not calling you stupid. That's just what the acronym means.


UI improvements would of course be highly desirable for this sort of thing (and even without any expansions could be implemented) such as...


Shard clearly lists prefix/suffix/whatever speciality slot it uses up.
Powers on items clearly lists that it is a prefix/suffix/whatever.


I'm not sure if you know it or not, but these first two are already implemented and functional. If anyone reading this post would like me to explain how to get this information from a shard I'll be happy to.

Cyr
08-29-2012, 01:29 PM
While I will admit you're correct that it would draw in some players, I think many more will be turned away by how confusing the system would be. There's something to be said for the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) system. Mind you, I'm not calling you stupid. That's just what the acronym means.


Nod, KISS is a good design criteria to consider on any system. However, KISS is not just about keeping systems uninventive and uninteresting, but is also about implementation strategies so that people understand how something works. Even moderately complicated ideas can be easy to use and utilize if the design focuses on that.

I think there is lots of room for improvement in the cannith crafting system as it stands to make it more user friendly and my suggestions would certainly require some of these to not lose any of it's current ease of use.

Silverwren
08-30-2012, 02:10 PM
Nod, KISS is a good design criteria to consider on any system. However, KISS is not just about keeping systems uninventive and uninteresting, but is also about implementation strategies so that people understand how something works. Even moderately complicated ideas can be easy to use and utilize if the design focuses on that.

I think there is lots of room for improvement in the cannith crafting system as it stands to make it more user friendly and my suggestions would certainly require some of these to not lose any of it's current ease of use.

KISS is not "about keeping systems uninventive and uninteresting" and never has been. It merely means keeping the function and design as simple as possible as to avoid misunderstandings, confusion and/or breakdown and repair.

I fail to understand how your list of twenty-five suggestions makes Canith crafting more "user friendly" as you say.

Cyr
08-30-2012, 02:45 PM
I fail to understand how your list of twenty-five suggestions makes Canith crafting more "user friendly" as you say.

They do not. These suggestions were not about UI functionality. My comment was that to retain the current ease of use MORE WORK would have to be done. Not that my suggestions were meant to make cannith crafting more user friendly.

My suggestions are meant to make cannith crafting have more functionality. With any additional functionality you often need to work to make the system more user friendly otherwise you lose some of it's current ease of use.

Kinerd
08-30-2012, 02:52 PM
Make every random loot gen modifier craftable. There are lots of new loot gen powers yet cannith crafting was not expanded to include these new desirable powers.Or at least all the olds ones. Striding 30, decent spell powers, etc.
I've seen non-named items with two prefixes and two suffixes during deconstruction.I think those are just new bugs, or new versions of old bugs. (Or Thaumaturgy staffs, which are of course an entirely different kettle of fish.) There's one random gen docent with Lesser Acid Resistance that's had two prefixes or suffixes for months.
I think your suggestions would make people run screaming from any and all Cannith crafting.I disagree: I think it would simplify the system! Currently we can do this thing, that thing, that other thing, but inexplicably not that thing, not that thing, and not that thing.

Under Cyr's system we could do everything. End of explanation! The Cannith interface already takes forever to load and they don't care, so that's no issue, and it has a search box so good to go.

eris2323
08-30-2012, 02:54 PM
I like almost all of the suggestions, cannith crafting is boring, grindy, and mostly useless as it is.

Yeah, I know, woohoo, we can twink out TR characters.... big flippin deal

Silverwren
08-30-2012, 02:59 PM
They do not. These suggestions were not about UI functionality. My comment was that to retain the current ease of use MORE WORK would have to be done. Not that my suggestions were meant to make cannith crafting more user friendly.

My suggestions are meant to make cannith crafting have more functionality. With any additional functionality you often need to work to make the system more user friendly otherwise you lose some of it's current ease of use.

This goes without saying, but you've thus far only put forth twenty five suggestions on how to "improve" Cannith crafting. You have yet to explain how all of the suggestions you would like to implement can be done while simultaneously preserving ease of use.

Do you have some ideas on how to achieve this?

Silverwren
08-30-2012, 03:05 PM
I disagree: I think it would simplify the system!

I'll put forth the same questions to you:

How does adding all of the OPs suggestions to the current Cannith crafting system make it simpler?

How do you add twenty-five new suggestions and still keep it user friendly?

Cyr
08-30-2012, 03:12 PM
This goes without saying, but you've thus far only put forth twenty five suggestions on how to "improve" Cannith crafting. You have yet to explain how all of the suggestions you would like to implement can be done while simultaneously preserving ease of use.

Do you have some ideas on how to achieve this?

Thanks for asking. Yes, I have alot of suggestions for ease of use on cannith crafting.

Cannith crafting is pretty good for a Turbine system when it comes to ease of use, but still could use improvements and as you noted could use some more to accomadate some of my suggestions.

So current issues from ease of use or could use improvement list for cannith crafting...


Swapping items to decon.
Inventory spam from ingredients.
Max potential versus ML. Easy once you understand it and you can do simple math, but has to be explained first time out for many people.
What does this shard go on?
Lots of alters.
Ingredients used when none should really be required.
Strange choice of requirements for some shards.
Locked in choices unless you decon back to step one.
Lots of clicks for repetitive stuff.
Issues that likely would arise without any new ease of use stuff from my suggestions.


Hold on what slots do I have to use on this item?
What the heck is that ML formula? How much does this shard raise it by?
What is my retention rate? What tomes have I eaten?
What rare recipes do I have again?
What slot does this shard use again?
OMG even more ingredients that use up space!!!
See further posts in thread for suggestions as this could get pretty wall of text like otherwise.

Cyr
08-30-2012, 03:30 PM
By simply having cannith crafting progress and ingredients shared across your entire account (by server as usual since that seems to be a tech limitation) you would elimate some of the points of concern.

Essentially you would have the same amount of xp on all your toons for cannith crafting and have an unlimited size 'crafting bag' that was shared across all characters. This would not take up an inventory slot and be able to be opened from the inventory tab, character crafting tab, and when you open a crafting device.

All those crafting things would go into this space. You could drag them into trade windows and into the AH if they were not bound as usual or decon them if shards.

Additionally a 'decon' button and 'decon all' on brokers would allow you to decon all your items that you added (using normal functionality for adding them) that can be deconned. As the decon ingredients in cannith crafting are completely pointless they would be eliminated (the minor cost they represent can be subtracted from plat returned from decons after all).

To make this functionality work, you would automatically decon these items as their highest xp cost return (ie highest tier wins). A checkbox in the gameplay tab would turn off decon enhancement bonuses from items (the no essense return option).

So basically you would never have to run to the cannith hall to decon, transfer stuff around the place to craft (exception for character specific boosts to crafting level) or decon, and never have to worry about cannith crafting taking up your valuable bag space.

You could still decon normally if you like clicking things ten million times.

This would take care of...


Swapping items to decon
Inventory spam from ingredients
Ingredients used when none should really be required.
OMG even more ingredients that use up space!!!
Helps with...

Lots of clicks to do repetive stuff

Kinerd
08-30-2012, 03:30 PM
I'll put forth the same questions to you:

How does adding all of the OPs suggestions to the current Cannith crafting system make it simpler?

How do you add twenty-five new suggestions and still keep it user friendly?Currently, I can think of an effect. Unless I want to spend 2 minutes loading into the crafting hall and another 2 waiting for the recipe machine to load and another 1 waiting for the shard machine to load, I don't know if I can craft it or what I can craft it on. (If I'm outside of the game obviously I just go to a third party website, because that's the way a professional gaming company should operate.)

Under Cyr's system, I can think of an effect, and know it is possible to do. I can log in my crafter knowing I can craft it. That is simplicity!

Cyr
08-30-2012, 03:52 PM
Problems...

Lots of Alters.
What does this shard go on?
Locked in choices until you decon to step one
Hold on what slots do I have on this item?
What slot does this shard go in again?
Lots of extra clicks...(only part of the solution in this post as previous one has more of this).
Solution.


Eliminate some alters, expand functionality on some, and improve descriptions. Basically we have a bunch of alters which are redundant at this point in the game.
Alter changes...


Decon alter becomes...the same old decon alter, but with the ability to strip filled slots from items. Stripping slots reduces MLs (this ML ease of use stuff will be listed later in seperate post) and allows the slot to be filled again. This would work for all sorts of slots on all sorts of items including for all epic slots.
Bound Construction Alter: This replaces the two alters in cannith for bound construction. No need to walk to a new machine to put those shards on an item. This would let you fill all those slots on items and make the shards, augements... to fill those slots with. This would be a master alter allowing you to do tons of junk on it including any ritual (stone of change) recipe, festival recipe, cannith crafting recipe, and epic alter recipe with recipes for these things just like cannith has now. Note, no recipes which destroy items or strip powers on this alter. That is the big difference that matters here. One alter to destroy another to create.
Unbound Construction Alter: Like the bound alter except for unbound stuff. Really there for ease of use so people know they are crafting the right thing.
Construction alters have a fillable field "Number to be created" which will do mass prodution of a recipe with a single click. Note, ingredients would be held in that account bag I talked about earlier so stack sizes are not a worry here. As stone of change stuff is all in these alters now yes that would mean mass production of dragonshards instead of the mind numbing design currently employed.
Recipe/Shard Changes


All ingredients that apply directly to an item to fill a slot would have a very simple clear listing of what slot it fills as in prefix/suffix/festival/ritual.
All ingredients that are applied directly to an item to fill a slot would have a very simple clear listing of what types of items it can be applied to. This would be a list of body slots more or less.
All recipes would include these things also in the same manner.
Item Changes

Add empty slots under lists of powers. Example, Empty ritual slot: This slot can be filled with a ritual.

Cyr
08-30-2012, 03:56 PM
Problems...

What is my retention rate? What tomes have I eaten?
What rare recipes do I have again?

Solutions...


Upgrades to character crafting tab (remember all this info is basically shared on all toons).

Base Retention Rate Listed here with formula displayed.
Rare Recipe subtab. Lists all rare recipes aquired.
Any crafting related tomes eaten listed here. Think xp tome implementation with icons per type and mouse over for full description.

Retention Rate listed right next to chance of sucess for recipes

Cyr
08-30-2012, 04:01 PM
Problem


Max potential compared to ML and how do you do that again?
How much does this shard change this items ML?
Do I have enough potential left to slot this shard?
Solutions


Currently there is basically the current potential of an item up in the corner of the item and a max potential listed under powers on the item. Really this is all about too little being displayed here.

Add to item under potential used, potential available (and both listed as such for clarity).
Add mouse over to potential available to display the ML formula based upon potential.
Add Potential used: X to end of each power which increases the ML of the item for ease of undestanding.
Add to all recipes which apply to an item a calculated field which displays as New Item ML: {the items new ML with recipe applied}
Add to all decon recipes which strip slots of powers the New Item ML as above.

Silverwren
09-04-2012, 11:55 AM
Based on the wall of text I just read from Cyr (and I did read it all) I cannot get onboard with this suggestion.

What you appear to be proposing is a total rebuild of the Cannith Crafting system as we know it. Most of your suggestions, IMO, make the system more complicated (although there are few that I agree with, such as having the ability to over-write a prefix/suffix/enhancement on an item with another without having to strip the item back to its basic form. This actually used to be the case before U14, and I would dearly LOVE to see this back in the game again).

In my opinion, it's not possible to revamp the system as much as you've proposed and expect a simpler system in the end. Nothing personal. I just think you're asking for too much.

Cyr
09-06-2012, 03:26 PM
I posted a raid tome thread with unique tomes per raid earlier today, but there is another more cannith crafted centered method of doing this sort of thing...

New Tome Recipes as rare drops from raids...


Recipe of Tome of Personal Improvement {Insert name of ability here}

BtA recipes that are learned by your toon upon reading them
BtA Tome created from these recipes
Recipes drop from raid chests

Recipes from specific raid chests only include recipes which modify powers which raid items from that raid modify
Extra recipe slot in 20th reward list of one random recipe drop capable of being dropped from that raid chest

Recipe drops are generic {insert name of ability} and unlock more powerful versions of the same recipe (can still use lesser ones) the more you read

Basic Skill Recipes (ie Repair Skill +1) could have first recipe giving you the Recipe of Tome Of Personal Improvement: Repair Skill +1 while eating two more (would show a number eaten in the tome listings on the crafting tab on your character sheet) would also let you use the Recipe of Tome of Personal Improvement: Repair Skill +2 and so forth until some limit is hit
Other power types would have different amounts of the basic drop to be used before you would gain the next step of the recipe of that type for use.

Use standard ingredients plus essence of {insert name of ability here}

Essences of {insert name of ability here} would be deconned from raid items with that ability. The bigger the bonus to that ability on the item originally the more essences given.
The larger the bonus that the tome would grant to your skill the more essences of {insert name of ability here} would require.


Tome of Personal Improvement {Insert Name of abiliy here}

Tome benefits carry through TRs like normal
MLs on tomes would kick in lesser versions before bigger ones just like stat tomes at the appropriate levels when leveling a TR with existing tomes of these types
These Tome types would be listed on the character sheets new tab "Tomes" or some other easy to access way to see these. Two listings one for benefits granted currently and one for total tome eaten (so you know that upon TRing without writing it down before hand).
Lots of different abilities could be done in this manner like...

Specific Skills (Repair, Concentration....) higher tiers of the tomes would grant greater bonuses
Dodge Bonus with higher tiers of the tomes granting greater bonuses
Specific Spell Powers with higher tiers granting greater bonuses
Specific Crit chance on spells or crit power on spells...
General Spell Power...
General Crit Chance...
Bonus to hit...
Bonus to damage...
Extra Turning attempts...


Example of how this could work...

You run the titan raid and get a recipe of tome of personal improvement: Concentration it is BtA. So you transfer it to your crafter and eat it. You have never eaten one of these recipes before so it unlocks the recipe...

Tome of Personal Improvement: Concentration +1

Ingredients: 1 Essence of Concentration, 1 Purified Dragonshard Essence, 100 Lesser Mind Essences, 10 Greater Mind Essences, 200 Siberysis Dragonshards
Creates: BtA Tome of Personal Improvement: Concentration +1 - This tome permanently grants your toon +1 to their concentration score. ML: 1.

You look at the trade in list for essence of concentration and find only two items on the list..

Staff of Petetioner creates 5 essences of concentration.
Visor of Concentration creates 10 essences of concentration.

Essences from raid items are BtA so you jump across your toons and find that you have a visor of concentration rotting in your bank on your old main character that has since been retired. You break it down for 10 essences put them in your shared bank and then create a tome to increase the concentration score on all 3 of the toons you think would benefit from it. You have 7 essences of concentration left so you are good on those for a while.

You run abbot a bunch of times and end up getting two more of these recipes over the next few months. You eat them on your crafter and unlock a new recipe for a Tome of Personal Improvement: Concentration +2. It requires more of the same type of ingredients as the last one. You have tons of all of them, but the essences of concentration. Sure you have a staff of the petitioner, but you are using it and are not going to break it down. It requires 4 Essences of Concentration so you make one of the +2 tomes for your guy.

You decide that you actually want to eat those things with your other two toons though. You cycle through guys and find that one has 17 titan completions. You knock out three more titans and roll the dice on your 20th to actually pull a visor of concentration.

Silverwren
09-17-2012, 03:38 PM
Sorry. Still /not signed. Way too complicated.