PDA

View Full Version : Standardized Loot Rewards



Cyr
02-20-2012, 10:27 AM
This idea is about standardizing how loot rewards work with the following goals...


Retain or even enhance the effective lifespan of the truly top level content.
Decrease the grinding of lower level content with capped toons.
Retain the chances of getting 'lucky' for those who like that instant reward rush and increase the odds of pulling something 'neat'.
Insure that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for those looking for a particular item beyond the RNG.
There are two parts of this standardization One concerns loot found inside of quests and the other concerns loot from end rewards. Let's start with end rewards.

Suggested End Reward Changes for content below the current level cap with the assumption that epic quests/raids be given actual levels that reflect their difficulty and not just a blanket number which is meaningless.


20th Reward Lists grant a full list of items named items found primarily in the content in question. This includes seals, shards, and scrolls if epic. Note, this does not mean fully made epic items or other fully made items from ingredients. Instead it is a full list of ingredients for these sorts of rewards. Note, more details on this later...
Seperate end reward lists for epic/elite/hard/normal runs of content. Epic content should grant epic rewards. In this case random scrolls/seals/shards that drop from the content in question.
Seperate quest completion counters for the different modes. Clearly epic 20th lists should be different from 20th completions for normal mode. This would enable this functionality. Note, these numbers would not add together but be seperate. In cases where there are no additional possible drops from hard/elite special items should be added to the lists as this was a good idea with abbot/reaver or in the case of ingredient rewards like shroud multiple ingredients should be available on the pull (like already upgraded supreme shards) on these higher difficulties.
10th End Reward Lists should be implemented. These function as the curent 20th reward lists having partial lists of named items from the content.
The reasoning behind the above is to increase the rate of loot aquisition by a large factor for below the cap questing as there is little reason to keep people grinding stuff which is largely trivial or at the least less challenging then other content.

Suggestions for end reward lists at or above the level cap (with all lists converting to the above when the level cap is raised and content is no longer at or above the level cap).


Keep #3 above for these also.
Partial end reward lists for 20th completions with longer lists for higher difficulties.
Suggestions for 'raid/epic' chests below the level cap.


Have a chance for fully completed items which the quest/raid drops ingredients for in the chest...so shroud would have a chance to pull a fully completed GS item from the end chest. Have much higher chances of this occuring on higher difficulties.
Have a chance to roll on a sub-table of loot which consists of all named loot and ingredients available from any chest below this chests level. This is the second big nod to those who love RNG and this also provides a means of aquiring oddball loot that a player might have no interest in grinding for, but would find amusing to have.
Suggestions for 'raid/epic' chests at or above the level cap.


Keep number 2 above.
Keep number 1 above, but with a tenth of the rate while the content remains at or above the level cap.
Insure that tomes and other high level non-named loot is consistently in high level loot tables.
Overall suggestions regarding loot...


Keep completion counters when TRing.
See a prior thread I created about 'legendary' loot.
Named item design must be approached from the viewpoint that there should be no junk items. If time is being spent to create a specific item then it should be worthwhile for players to bother spending time getting it otherwise it is a waste of development time and in the case of new content lessens the effective lifespan of that content needlessly.
Cannith crafting and other created loot should be tied into loot and rewards in general in a more comprehensive manner. I will post more about my ideas on this in the future.

redspecter23
02-20-2012, 11:13 AM
I agree with much of what is said here. I do have a minor concern about splitting raid counters for n/h/e/epic. If you commonly run different difficulties (pug runs will often be normal, while guild runs might be elite or epic) then it actually takes you longer to see 20th lists than it does now. I'd rather see N/H/E/epic all have the same reward lists and counters as they do now, but epic drops a special trophy in the end chest. Collect 20 of these trophies and hit up a barter box for a seal/shard/scroll reward similar to what you have mentioned above. The trophies would be specific to the raid you're doing so you'd need 20 completions of that raid to get the list, but it would be independent of your total N/H/E/epic completions total.

Cyr
02-20-2012, 11:15 AM
I agree with much of what is said here. I do have a minor concern about splitting raid counters for n/h/e/epic. If you commonly run different difficulties (pug runs will often be normal, while guild runs might be elite or epic) then it actually takes you longer to see 20th lists than it does now. I'd rather see N/H/E/epic all have the same reward lists and counters as they do now, but epic drops a special trophy in the end chest. Collect 20 of these trophies and hit up a barter box for a seal/shard/scroll reward similar to what you have mentioned above. The trophies would be specific to the raid you're doing so you'd need 20 completions of that raid to get the list, but it would be independent of your total N/H/E/epic completions total.

I agree a barter box thing would work better. I think that epic does need it's own seperate counter though as that difficulty is often different enough from a rewards perspective and challenge perspective that it is beneficial to have a very strong reason for people to actually run that difficulty. Oh and it is far past time for content to actually have higher level end reward lists for completing the content on harder difficulties (as in non-20ths).

Edit: Something like N = 1 run, H = 2 Run, E = 3 Run with lists changed to 20 and 40 from above. That would make hard runs reach the 20th threshold at 20 runs and elite runs hit it a little faster. Note, a seperate counter would make this functionality work just as well if not better then another collectible to put in a bag.

Krago
02-20-2012, 03:33 PM
Questions/Comments:

How do you have Epic quests below cap? I believe you have to be 20 to enter an Epic quest which is rated for lvl 25 toons. So with the additional Epic levels coming, at best the Epic content is at cap.

If I run Elite Shroud, I am not looking for a completed GS item. Even if I was, doubtful it would be something that I could use unless I could pick the properties.

So how do you break apart quest chains that can drop the same Epic ingredients? Some Epic quests are much easier than others to farm, and quicker.

I do agree that if I were to run Amrath quests 20 times on Elite, I should get something better than +1 vendor junk.

Cyr
02-20-2012, 04:25 PM
Questions/Comments:

How do you have Epic quests below cap? I believe you have to be 20 to enter an Epic quest which is rated for lvl 25 toons. So with the additional Epic levels coming, at best the Epic content is at cap. I did put a little note saying that epics actually be given real levels as opposed to the nonsense 25 fits all label they have now which is not even close to accurate for their difficulty level which varies widely. An epic like snitch should probably be a 20th level quest while an epic like chrono is clearly a harder bit of content so deserves a higher level. That would put many epics below the cap upon the expansions realease in my opinion.

If I run Elite Shroud, I am not looking for a completed GS item. Even if I was, doubtful it would be something that I could use unless I could pick the properties. A full list plus extras is the idea here. So it would have stuff like dual shard/single shard supreme shards. Sure the one you might want may not be on there, but you could always pull your choice of +3 tomes (normally available from the end reward list), cleansing essense, or ingredient. The idea being it is more then just the normal full reward list, but also some really neat stuff like possibly a dual shard supreme that while not the perfect choice for you is well worth spending a blank plus the smalls/mediums to make a fun little item with minimal cost.

So how do you break apart quest chains that can drop the same Epic ingredients? Some Epic quests are much easier than others to farm, and quicker.

Yes, some are easier to farm then others. However, only ingredients that actually drop from that quest/raid should be on the lists. So 20th on into the deep would not have any seals in it, but would have the shards for example. Sure no one would farm out Von3/4 for the lists, but they don't farm those out now either so the same basic design flaw carries through (all seals available from all quests in the pack).

I do agree that if I were to run Amrath quests 20 times on Elite, I should get something better than +1 vendor junk.

Answers in RED

Lleren
02-20-2012, 04:56 PM
While I would like loot to be handled in a fairly standard manner across all quests and raids. I do not want to have an additional token to collect per Raid/quest to get appropriate 20th reward lists.

I would much prefer limiting the additional ingredients we collect, and eliminating many of them, to the current Hoarders obsession we currently have.

At this point I'd be fairly happy with named quest loot going bound to account rather then bound to character if it is currently bound. All the packs getting an End Reward list like newer packs have.

Epic Explorer area's.
Epic Gianthold

Grailhawk
02-21-2012, 12:35 PM
20th Reward Lists grant a full list of items named items found primarily in the content in question. This includes seals, shards, and scrolls if epic. Note, this does not mean fully made epic items or other fully made items from ingredients. Instead it is a full list of ingredients for these sorts of rewards. Note, more details on this later...
Seperate end reward lists for epic/elite/hard/normal runs of content. Epic content should grant epic rewards. In this case random scrolls/seals/shards that drop from the content in question.
Seperate quest completion counters for the different modes. Clearly epic 20th lists should be different from 20th completions for normal mode. This would enable this functionality. Note, these numbers would not add together but be seperate. In cases where there are no additional possible drops from hard/elite special items should be added to the lists as this was a good idea with abbot/reaver or in the case of ingredient rewards like shroud multiple ingredients should be available on the pull (like already upgraded supreme shards) on these higher difficulties.
10th End Reward Lists should be implemented. These function as the curent 20th reward lists having partial lists of named items from the content.

So I like some of the ideas in this but I'm not a fan of the implementation you came up with i feel that some of your ideas make it too easy to get the loot you want imo that will lead to people no longer having things to do in the game and that's a bad thing.

I like the idea of a full list of named items but I don't think that should be on your 20th I think the 20th should be left as it is now but add the full list of named items on the 100th completion. This means someone who is dedicated to finding one specific item will get it with in a year (100 runs x 3days = 300 days wait to get what you want).

I think separating the rewards lists to epic and heroic is a good idea I would lump all of normal/hard/elite into the heroic rewards list.

I think 20th completion of an epic quest should offer a full list of shards/seels/scrolls that could drop in that quest. Worst case that means 60 (120 days) to build one epic item.

I do not believe there is any need to make it easier to get loot from below the level cap. The simple fact that the quest/raid is easier to complete, making it easier to get the loot is enough.





Have a chance for fully completed items which the quest/raid drops ingredients for in the chest...so shroud would have a chance to pull a fully completed GS item from the end chest. Have much higher chances of this occuring on higher difficulties.
Have a chance to roll on a sub-table of loot which consists of all named loot and ingredients available from any chest below this chests level. This is the second big nod to those who love RNG and this also provides a means of aquiring oddball loot that a player might have no interest in grinding for, but would find amusing to have.
Suggestions for 'raid/epic' chests at or above the level cap.


Keep number 2 above.
Keep number 1 above, but with a tenth of the rate while the content remains at or above the level cap.
Insure that tomes and other high level non-named loot is consistently in high level loot tables.


There really is no reason to make the way chests work more complicated. The way they work now where every time you open a specific chest there is chance at a cool named item is a good simple elegant implantation that really needs not change. Further more if there are changes made to rewards list to make items easier to get I don't think there needs to be any changes to the chests in the quest.

danotmano1998
02-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Seperate end reward lists for epic/elite/hard/normal runs of content. Epic content should grant epic rewards. In this case random scrolls/seals/shards that drop from the content in question

From your lips to Turbine's ears.. If only!
Getting a +1 shortsword of lesser animal bane as the best choice on the epic end reward is just rotten. At least give me a choice of appropriate epic type random gear.
Something, anything, that is a ML 18 or above random item at the very least.


But... Turbine seems to have lots of difficulties with quest end rewards. Just look at Abbot, or ToD, or some of the other quests that have had borked rewards for how long now?

So.. /signed on this idea, but I'm not holding my breath.

Cyr
02-21-2012, 01:03 PM
There really is no reason to make the way chests work more complicated. The way they work now where every time you open a specific chest there is chance at a cool named item is a good simple elegant implantation that really needs not change. Further more if there are changes made to rewards list to make items easier to get I don't think there needs to be any changes to the chests in the quest.

Reasons despite you thinking there are no reasons...


It is undesirable for players to be running lower level content for specific rewards. This is because if something holds no challenge players tend to enjoy it less. Diversification of chest drops to include lower level named items and ingredients provides another, albiet slower avenue to recieve these rewards from appropriately challenging content.
Having shots at full items is a big deal to many players. These players are ones who have no plans to grind out large number of runs and often are sitting with substandard gear. Getting lucky and pulling something...anything named from epic...often is an improvement for these players and a big moment of excitment for them. This provides positive reinforcement for these players to run more endgame content.
Variety of possible rewards being too limited is a HUGE reason why content goes dry quickly at endgame. Players basically get the few items they want from the raid and then rarely run the content anymore. Having the possibility of pulling anything at all from lower level loot tables adds alot more reasons to keep running any high level raid/epic which in turn increases it's effective lifespan. At the end of the day that is the name of the game extending the lifespan of new content while making sure there is a light at the end of the tunnel for those who are less hardcore players (the eventual level cap raise where the loot will be more easily aquired).
Lots of people like named loot specifically because they can get that feeling of getting lucky. These two suggestions both cater towards them while not making their love of the RNG dominate others love of less random loot mechanics.

Cyr
02-21-2012, 01:19 PM
But... Turbine seems to have lots of difficulties with quest end rewards. Just look at Abbot, or ToD, or some of the other quests that have had borked rewards for how long now?

So.. /signed on this idea, but I'm not holding my breath.

lol, yeah don't get me started on the inattention Turbine has had towards loot over the years. It's a constant issue.

At least this would be a standard way of doing things with coding done in a manner so that you would just be programming in database values for new content (excluding any new item powers).

Cyr
02-22-2012, 09:57 AM
An alternative to the 20th/10th raid reward lists...

In this implementation idea there are only two counters required one for n/h/e and one for epic completions. Instead of having 'special reward lists' (read 20th reward lists with seals/shards/scrolls whatever as appropriate for the content) come up each 20 runs it is a percentage based system as follows.


The chance of having any end reward be a special reward list = Difficulty multiplier* completions bonus + done to death bonus.
Difficulty multiplier = 1 if normal or epic, 1.5 if hard, and 2 if elite. These bonuses are halved if the content is above the level cap.
Completions bonus = 1% per normal completion, 1.25% per hard completion, and 1.5% per elite completion; this bonus resets when you get a 'special rewards list'
Done to Death bonus is calculated when you get a 'special rewards list' and it is = prior done to death bonus + completions bonus*0.05 (or 0.1 if the content is below the level cap). This bonus has a cap of 50%.
This then works out out to a new toon having a 90% chance of getting a special rewards list by the time they do 20 normal runs or 13 runs on elite of at cap or below cap content.

This alternative system would take the emphasis away from having seperate better lists for hard/elite and instead give those modes higher chances of getting a special rewards list. It also keeps this increased odds safely isolated to a specific account leading to minimal distortions to running behavior.

I would also suggest that each time a special reward list is generated that an additional item appear on the list until all possible items are on the list.

countfitz
02-22-2012, 01:05 PM
/signed on almost everything. And the few things I disagree with I'd willingly put up with if we got the rest.