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View Full Version : Warforged should not be Stalwart.



eulogy098
02-20-2012, 09:36 AM
The upcoming racial enhancement tree for Warforged should be Kensai. *Not* a carbon copy of the dwarfs stalwart. discuss.

Dwarfo
02-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Isnt it going to be a new pre called "Juggernaut" ?

eulogy098
02-20-2012, 09:52 AM
"Racial Tree


Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

◦Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
◦Warforged: Stalwart Defender
◦Halfling: Assassin
◦Half-Orc: Ravager
◦Elf: Arcane Archer
◦Drow: Tempest
◦Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
◦Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.) "

voodoogroves
02-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Yeah Dwarfo, but the devs are looking at maybe not doing more racial PREs and instead giving races a default option.

I think Stalwart would be a bad move. First, it would allow some silly combinations w/ WF casters - the only place WF are still solidly valuable and one they don't need a ton of help with. It wouldn't allow for WF to become better tanks as honestly, the healing amp issue is to large a gap for them.

A juggernaut was/is not a barbarian ... but it had great HD, great defenses and excelled in charging and overruns.

Kensai would be a better fit; would still rather have juggernaut.

Failedlegend
02-20-2012, 11:22 AM
Yeah Dwarfo, but the devs are looking at maybe not doing more racial PREs and instead giving races a default option.

I think Stalwart would be a bad move. First, it would allow some silly combinations w/ WF casters - the only place WF are still solidly valuable and one they don't need a ton of help with. It wouldn't allow for WF to become better tanks as honestly, the healing amp issue is to large a gap for them.

A juggernaut was/is not a barbarian ... but it had great HD, great defenses and excelled in charging and overruns.

Kensai would be a better fit; would still rather have juggernaut.

or they could just not do that and give them actual racial PrEs

licho
02-20-2012, 12:07 PM
or they could just not do that and give them actual racial PrEs

This, devs should give the race unique PrE. Since otherwise its better to try to stack racial PrE with other class PrE. So nobody will pick favored by race class, but will look for stacking opportunites.

So we get Elves AA Kensai, Dwarven Palladins, Halfing Barbarians...

Racial PrE should be something unique.

Or at least allow to stact racial and class pres. Like Elven AA Deepwood Sniper.

eulogy098
02-20-2012, 01:29 PM
the single most important thing to consider when suggesting something is the likelyhood of it happening. Suggesting all unique racial prestiges rather then what they have already planned is pointless. It's not going to happen.

So take what is there and make it more ideal.

Dont give the warforge Stalwart for their racial. That's for dwarves. Give them the other fighter prestige. how this is not a completely obvious "duh" decision for the devs is beyond me.

Delssar
02-20-2012, 02:04 PM
No one else want the Halfling Ranger Assasin/Tempest?

sirgog
02-20-2012, 03:12 PM
They could also tweak the incoming healing numbers on the various races. That would make WF stalwarts viable.

Brennie
02-20-2012, 03:25 PM
I have questions and concerns related to this. Can anyone point me to where the PrEs are being discussed (or is it just mixed with everything else in that gigantic enhancements thread)?

Perhaps someone could help me with this though: Stalwart Defender and Assassin require class-specific boosts in order to power some of their abilities - How will this work for racial PrEs?

Ditto requirements: Some are very class specific. And Drow Tempest... tempest requires 4 feats to qualify for. On a Ranger, this is not a big deal since they get their GTWF for free, essentially only costing them a net 1 feat in the long run. However, any Drow Rogue, paladin, barbarian, bard, <other melee> will have to use 4 feat to qualify for Tempest III, 3 feats for GTWF, and be left with NO EXTRA FEATS. No toughness, no power attack, noimproved crit, nothing!

Hopefully these are concerns already beign discussed elsewhere, but I'm having trouble locating even the proposed racial PrEs in the enhancement thread, or if theres a different "Racial PrE" thread XD Thanks for the help!

Munkenmo
02-20-2012, 03:55 PM
personally I'm very much looking forward to my stalwart w/f monk
My w/f AA
and my W/f fvs stalwart will be doing quite nicely too.

Everyone's bagging on the healing penalty of warforged, it sucks no two ways about it. Given that the devs aren't really focusing on repair amp, and the games headed so far into the take damage, heal damage approach, If w/f are ever going to be viable tanks again I'd like to see something like this.

The enhancements should be changed to a cost of 1/1/1, making them more affordable, boosting the healing benefit and providing some sort of penalty to retain a semblance of balance.

w/f healers friend 1
increases base healing amp by 15% - drops base fortification by 5%

w/f healers friend 2
increases base healing amp by 15% - drops base fortification by 10%

w/f healers friend 3
increases base healing amp by 15% - drops base fortification by 15%

95% healing potential of a fleshy character, whilst no longer having an innate bonus to fortification. Given the changes to improved sunder, opportunist strike, wrack construct, and destruction, W/f who go this route for decent healing amp should notice this loss of fortification more than a fleshy

DrNuegebauer
02-20-2012, 04:54 PM
Giving WF stally might sell more WF?

Arcane WF "tanks" will become all the rage again (the Tukaw build rises again?)

ThePrincipal
02-21-2012, 05:01 PM
get ready for a slurry of fighter mages

human just got a big boost. any pre... wow... Can I be a FVS with Radiant Servant racial pre? Can I be a Barbarian with Assassian Pre?

Seventh
02-22-2012, 01:11 AM
I have questions and concerns related to this. Can anyone point me to where the PrEs are being discussed (or is it just mixed with everything else in that gigantic enhancements thread)?

It's in the gigantic enhancements thread.


Perhaps someone could help me with this though: Stalwart Defender and Assassin require class-specific boosts in order to power some of their abilities - How will this work for racial PrEs?

This is going to happen as part of the big enhancement revamp coming with the expansion. Assuming things are implemented as the devs outlined in the thread (subject to change and all that), all the enhancements in the game are going to be sorted into trees, and each tree will be associated with a PrE- all the enhancements you need to take to qualify for a PrE will be in it's tree. (Sort of- as I understand it, you would no longer need to take specific enhancements- instead, reaching certain "points spent in tree" thresholds would grant you PrE abilities.) Under this system, having a Racial PrE doesn't just let you take the PrE itself- you gain access to its entire associated enhancement tree. So this won't be a problem.


Ditto requirements: Some are very class specific. And Drow Tempest... tempest requires 4 feats to qualify for. On a Ranger, this is not a big deal since they get their GTWF for free, essentially only costing them a net 1 feat in the long run. However, any Drow Rogue, paladin, barbarian, bard, <other melee> will have to use 4 feat to qualify for Tempest III, 3 feats for GTWF, and be left with NO EXTRA FEATS. No toughness, no power attack, noimproved crit, nothing!

The Devs also mentioned that feat requirements for PrEs would be lessened or removed during the revamp.


Hopefully these are concerns already beign discussed elsewhere, but I'm having trouble locating even the proposed racial PrEs in the enhancement thread, or if theres a different "Racial PrE" thread XD Thanks for the help!

The folks in the enhancements thread have been on it for a while now. It's worth skimming through the thread just to read the dev posts, even if you don't intend to join the discussion.

destiny4405
02-22-2012, 03:53 AM
as long as they get battering ram, i don't care :)

voodoogroves
02-22-2012, 06:02 AM
Giving WF stally might sell more WF?

Arcane WF "tanks" will become all the rage again (the Tukaw build rises again?)

Being a WF fan, I fully want them to have relevant melee options.

That said, I think that's too much.

Dwarf at least would have some cons with SD. For one, mis-aligned racial and divine weapon options. For another, only blue bar self healing on an arcane if they go PM, and dwarven PMs aren't top of the heap there anyway - they aren't bad, but they aren't on top. Non-human PMs are going to struggle to fit in Shield Prof/Mastery and Insightful Reflexes along with everything else they need to be a good core PM. A dip build could do it on a non-human, but they are giving something up.

I do think Tactics is the a better option.

With a battering ram charge-knockdown maneuver as well.

Dieterstrife
02-23-2012, 06:14 AM
My biggest question for these racials, is this:

Are they going to be set up like the current AA prestige for Helf/Elf? Meaning that if youre a Drow ranger, and go AA for the class prestige, will that override it so you can't go for the tempest racial? this is the part that has been bugging me the most.

InsanityIsYourFriend
02-23-2012, 11:29 PM
with the revamp you will be able to get as many PrEs as 4, but you need X points spent in the tree you want the PrE in, so technically ~if im getting it right~ you could now be an AA/deep wood sniper/assasin if you are a halfling ranger just by going AA line, DWS line, AND your racial line

thats if im understanding it right and they dont change it

Dawnsfire
02-24-2012, 12:14 AM
I'd like to see all the races get unique PREs. Unfortunately this was kinda assured when elf got AA and so did anyone that was a ranger. Once that was accepted by the community it really killed any chance that anyone else was going to get anything exclusive.

I would prefer they find something else for WF or Dwarf. Both races shouldn't have to share a racial PRE. The racial PRE system should foster some singular rewards for choosing each race. This decision just sounds like they ran out of ideas as they went down the race list (Dev: Last one W, hmmm Warforged). . . or the devs just can't tell these two races apart :p