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zchristian1
02-14-2012, 08:45 PM
Hi,
I tried to research the difference between the cleric and the Favored Soul, but only found old info:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=188768&page=4

What will be the advantages and disadvantages of each in comparison to each other?

Thanks!

Dwarfo
02-14-2012, 08:57 PM
Clerics: More spells...umm uhh..a healing aura and a healing burst.

Favored Souls: Just better. More sp, usually more survivable, wings, archon blasting buddy, dr 10 at capstone, and everything a cleric has besides more spells x10.

FVS do cost TP to unlock, for 2500 or 3500 favor...while clerics are free.

zchristian1
02-14-2012, 09:04 PM
Clerics: More spells...umm uhh..a healing aura and a healing burst.

Favored Souls: Just better. More sp, usually more survivable, wings, archon blasting buddy, dr 10 at capstone, and everything a cleric has besides more spells x10.

FVS do cost TP to unlock, for 2500 or 3500 favor...while clerics are free.

Would you say the limited number of spells greatly reduces your ability to keep your group alive? Does it allow you to be more or less offensive? How often can you change the spells you know?

DavionFuxa
02-14-2012, 09:48 PM
Would you say the limited number of spells greatly reduces your ability to keep your group alive? Does it allow you to be more or less offensive? How often can you change the spells you know?

Favored Souls may not change their spells in Taverns or Rest Shrines like Clerics. Like Sorcerers, your stuck at changing 1 spell every 3 days at your trainer at a cost (excluding other more advanced means).

In terms of spells, Clerics automatically have a Cure spell whenever it becomes available so healing for them is never a problem - a Cleric may always heal. A Favored Soul however must devote one spell slot for each Cure spell (or Heal spell) he takes, and there may be other spells competing with the Cure spells that he may want instead depending on what he plans to do with his build.

A Favored Soul and a Cleric can equally be offensive or defensive - however, a Cleric has more options then a Favored Soul because he has more spells and Wisdom governs both spell points AND Spell Use where on Favored Souls the Charisma manages spell points and Wisdom governs Spell Use.

Now, back to your original question:


Hi,
I tried to research the difference between the cleric and the Favored Soul, but only found old info:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=188768&page=4

What will be the advantages and disadvantages of each in comparison to each other?

Thanks!

In General, a Favored Soul will outperform a Cleric. It is a class you can only unlock with 2500 favor or buy from the DDO store so no real contest understanding why.

You should take a good look researching the threads some more. I found this one for example:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=231936&highlight=cleric+favored+soul

This one was a little less biased:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=329289&highlight=cleric+favored+soul

Hope this helps.

MeliCat
02-14-2012, 10:52 PM
A caster build FvS totally sucks to level until about level 12 but totally kicks ass end game cf cleric. Clerics are more fun to level but you really feel the lesser saves and DR at end game. I'm talking pure caster builds here and this is ofc a personal opinion.

~Quilny
02-14-2012, 11:07 PM
I have done Multiple Lives of both classes so you can take my word when I say they are both Wonderful classes and both can be great healers.

Offensively looking most people would say FVS which I guess ya they are a lil bit better than clerics at offensive.

most important thing when rolling a FVS is know what spells to take and what spells to scroll. Like for me i scroll Restoration and Feast Raise dead you know stuff thats a waste of a spell slot:D.

Whatever you do You should have a blast divines are a fun class.

SemiraLynn
02-14-2012, 11:09 PM
If you're trying to decide on a new character and you have access to it, definitely Favored Soul.

1. Favored Souls get plenty of spells. Many spells in the game are fluff and/or can be scrolled/clickied anyways.
2. Favored Souls get more spell points (more points to make enemies go splat).
3. A pure Favored Soul can get the free healing capstone which is nice to have.
4. A pure Favored Soul gets DR.
5. Favored Souls get wings at level 17.
6. With the current state of prestiges, Favored Souls will deal more spell damage.

The only thing a Cleric has an advantage in is with their healing aura. It's nice in some situations and can save spell points at times, but with the already greater spell point pool Favored Souls get, it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

Healing-wise Clerics might be able to heal more per heal, but this is pretty meaningless. A Favored Soul with very few healing enhancements or much else invested into the healing line is still more than capable of quality raid healing.

zex95966
02-15-2012, 02:00 AM
oh gawd, not another cleric vs fvs thread.
no offense to the OP, cuz he didn't know better but tons of these exist.

I like clerics for offensive caster focused, and fvs for melee focused, but that's just me.

They both can heal great, but the aura and the earlier access to spells is nicer for the offensive casters imo.
While FVS get lots of hp/sp, saves and resistances but have to wait longer for their spells.
also the pre sort of supports melee.

ValenGodspeed
02-15-2012, 02:03 AM
As a fella that have leveled quite a few clerics and FvS I will just state that FvS is the strongest of the two hence the favor/TP cost. No Debate about it.

But since this is in the new player section I think theres a few things that is worth noticing.
- My experience is that I usually end up spending more resources on wands Scrolls and the like when leveling a FvS, especially at the lower levels, so if you dont have plat you may want to consider the cleric. This is especially true after level 6 where the cleric prestige is a good addition to your healing.

- If you plan on being a healer only for what ever reason that you may have - not all new player are very good at mulititasking (healing 6 people while kneedeep in kobolds) from the get go, then you may want to consider cleric.

- A minor thing, but never the less, clerics get their spells one level earlier. This means Devine Punishment at level 9 + the obligatory heal spell and Heal, Blade Barrier and Mass Cure Moderate Wounds at level 11, where the FvS will get only the choice of one of those at level 12. The point is if you are not crash leveling like many of the old timers are power at mid levels is a bit more front loaded on the cleric.

Hope you can use the above information, else feel free to send me a PM I will be happy to elaborate.

epopotamus
02-15-2012, 03:19 AM
for a new player i would recommend playing a cleric, the free healing from the PrE(radiant servant) and the earlier spells makes a big difference, especially without all the game knowledge long time players have.

while its true FVS can overall be stronger with higher DC's (PrE), more spellpoints and wings/dr at higher lvls, a lot of the power comes from the player, since they have knowledge of encounters and mechanics and know what to expect/what tools (spells/tactics) to use for the situations.

cleric is a lot more versatile for learning, being able to try all the spells, and having the leeway to multiclass splash 1-2 levels (if this is you, do some research for the pros and cons), and the aoe heals from radiant servant can prettymuch keep a 6person grp healed without spending any mana.

offensive caster wise, they both play almost identically.
healing wise, cleric leads in aoe and burst heal output, while fvs (with capstone) lead with single target healing as they get a free cure spell, and larger mana pool for spells.

hope this helps a bit.

edit: the problem with a lot of the fvs vs clr threads is they end up becoming a big war of the "the class i play is better", so having to sort through 20 pages of flame for the few good informative posts is normally quite hard.

Sleepsalot
02-15-2012, 03:55 AM
Well I have played both Cleric and Favored Soul. The Cleric to me was sort of Bland. Not great on Spell points or Hit points. As for the spells available to a Cleric it makes them much easier to play. If you research the quests a bit in advance. You can adjust your spell book to make it easier.. A FvS really has it a bit harder at first. It takes longer to learn what spells are useful.. As you can only swap spells every 72 hours and it is 1 only.. So it is much harder Unless you can afford 150 tp and buy a dragons Blood Potion. Then swapping spells is better but still takes a good bit of Planning. I do like the Hit points as I am one that Melees but likes the ability to Heal Have good defensive spells and cast a offensive spell when needed.. Overall for some one new to the healing and Casting I would say go with a Cleric.. Later when you learn the ropes so to say.. Then try FvS..

Sleeps :D :) :D

morticianjohn
02-15-2012, 04:10 AM
IMO a new player should start with cleric for many reasons.

1st they get a mass cure of sorts at level 6 which helps a newer player more. A vet can easily make due without the radiant burst but it can be a real lifesaver for a new cleric. Also it will save money on scrolls as FvS are likely to need restore scrolls for many levels.

2nd the ability to change spells at will. A new player can get a feel for all divine spells in the game on a cleric before trying out FvS. A bad spell selection will cost less plat and be easier to fix.

3rd stat distribution is easier on a cleric. A new player could start out one way (melee divine) then decide they like playing caster divine more. While I know it isn't much trouble to get enough CHA on a FvS bad selections in character creation are generally more forgiving on a cleric.

4th healing aura. The passive heal is amazing especially for a new player who may not have the plat for scrolls and wands.

5th getting spells a level earlier. I can't tell you how much frustration I've had because of FvS not having the necessaries while leveling. Cleric noob - if we can get to a shrine I'll swap it in. FvS noob - I thought chaos hammer and spell resistance would be better than fom (DW, cure critical or whatever useful level 4 spell).

Lastly as clerics are viable end game even if not the best option, most of the time, there is no reason as a new player that you should go FvS over cleric.

moops
02-15-2012, 04:47 AM
oh gawd, not another cleric vs fvs thread.
no offense to the OP, cuz he didn't know better but tons of these exist.

I like clerics for offensive caster focused, and fvs for melee focused, but that's just me.

They both can heal great, but the aura and the earlier access to spells is nicer for the offensive casters imo.
While FVS get lots of hp/sp, saves and resistances but have to wait longer for their spells.
also the pre sort of supports melee.

Clerics are indeed much better offensive casters than FVS, if at the very least, simply because of the spell slots. .. If you want to be a one trick pony whom only uses Blade Barrier, than by all means, do FVS.

But after 6 years, my necro cleric still remains my favorite--lvl 5 and 6 are rough levels for spells, and on an FVs even more so.

I made an FVs to go neck and neck with my Necro Clerics, and ended up making the FVS into an intimtank with shield mastery--this is something tho that the cleric I have coul dnot do with the same ease..

Dendrix
02-15-2012, 06:16 AM
Every single piece of Divine Gear in the game is better tuned for clerics than for FvS.
Divine Gear comes with stuff that improves turn undead in some way and while clerics get turn undead fvs don't

darthhento
02-15-2012, 06:52 AM
With all the above being said there's also a slight difference in pugging.

As a cleric you'll get tons of invites to heal parties which may or may not annoy you. It's an easy ticket to lvl 20 and 90% of the quests can be a snooze fest for you if you wanna be a healbot. Jerks will shout at you for not hjealing them, not rezzing them and wipes being your fault. And they'll tell you not to spend mana on instakills/damage/crowd control as it's better use for hjealing them.

As a Favored Soul those same jerks won't even know that you can heal. If any, party invites will be from more experienced players that 90% of the time won't need any healing or only in those OH S*IT! moments. Plus when you're bored FvS is the best soloable class IMHO.

This being from my own experience and impressions.

p.s. both classes are auto-accept into parties

Kayla93
02-15-2012, 07:37 AM
With all the above being said there's also a slight difference in pugging.

As a cleric you'll get tons of invites to heal parties which may or may not annoy you. It's an easy ticket to lvl 20 and 90% of the quests can be a snooze fest for you if you wanna be a healbot. Jerks will shout at you for not hjealing them, not rezzing them and wipes being your fault. And they'll tell you not to spend mana on instakills/damage/crowd control as it's better use for hjealing them.

As a Favored Soul those same jerks won't even know that you can heal. If any, party invites will be from more experienced players that 90% of the time won't need any healing or only in those OH S*IT! moments. Plus when you're bored FvS is the best soloable class IMHO.

This being from my own experience and impressions.

p.s. both classes are auto-accept into parties

I get inviting to heal on mine fvs enough.. if its worse on cleric i truly think theyre saint :D

True is FvS is better in end game in dps matter.
1. Casters in end game are mostly better than melees. So do a caster divine.
And caster fvs > caster cleric.
More mana to kill and heal, and aura that gives sth like +2 DC +2 spell pen + free dmg from archon and dmg boosting pre.
Clerics on the other way are great to multiclass and go melee. they can fight and heal with aura, and dont loose so much multiclassing. FvS i wouldnt multiclass.

To compare.
Fvs: Get more sp, 10DR that practically nothing can pass, free resistance to 3 choosen elements, better saves, wings, archon, more mana, +2 DC+2 spell pen, aura with +2 DC +2 spell pen, jump as a class skill, "faith" (which gives e.gheal taking all death penalty hitting for 1k or more), capstone (u can get free maximized empowered searing light, or cure kight that will hit u with metamagics and average heal amp for 150+, so u can effectively keep a good heal amp tank with it and yourself too with no sp).

Cleric: get really usefull aura and bursts for no sp, and more spell choice (and they mostly dont use half of these spells) and cheaper empower healing, and theyre perfect to killing undeads (sadly in end game there are hardly any)

So well.... fvs advantages seems and are better...But if u never tried any divine you can go cleric and try out spells

PNellesen
02-15-2012, 08:23 AM
I've played a number of different types of clerics, and the one thing I LOVE about them is Radiant Servant Burst and Aura. I've not yet run a FvS, but from what I've seen they do have some offensive and defensive advantages over a Cleric, though there are tradeoffs in terms of number of spells they get, and of course no RS PRE.

If you like the idea of being able to Heal a group without much SP cost (sometimes you simply HAVE to throw that Mass cure or Mass Heal) and still be able to do some offensive casting or melee, Cleric isn't a bad class to try, especially considering it's free. Keep in mind, though, that many groups expect clerics to do nothing BUT heal, and get all bent out of shape if you have the audacity to insta-kill 5 mobs with Implosion, knock 6 or 7 giants on their rear ends with Greater Command, or take out all the enemy casters with Destruction before the melees can get to them ;)

GeneralDiomedes
02-15-2012, 08:40 AM
If you are running with non-uber players, they might appreciate the divine vitality (mana regen) capability of the cleric. Usually, zergs will finish dungeons too quickly for this to matter.

GeneralDiomedes
02-15-2012, 08:41 AM
If you are running with non-uber players, they might appreciate the divine vitality (mana regen) capability of the cleric.

Sarisa
02-15-2012, 09:37 AM
Current differences, to the best of my knowledge, with the best attempt at being unbiased. This assumes that a Cleric will take Radiant Servant II, and a Favored Soul will take Angel of Vengeance I. Angel of Vengeance II is not truly necessary for a melee build. There is no reason not to take either PrE, as there are currently no other choices, and both grant large bonuses.

Note that some of these differences are only valid at cap.

DC's

Clerics have 1 more potential maximum WIS than FvS's, via enhancements. This may or may not grant 1 additional DC, it depends on the equipment available.
Monsters within a FvS's Aura of Menace will have a -2 save penalty. This gives an effective 2 DC bonus to FvS's, as long as you are in close range to your target.


Spells

Clerics have 5 non-Spontaneous spell slots per level at 20-Cleric. The Spontaneous spell slots for level 1-8 spells are forced to be the Cure, then Mass Cure spells. Aside from the Spontaneous spots, those spells can be swapped out at shrines at will.
FvS's have 4 spell slots for level 1-5 spells, and 3 spell slots for level 6-9 spells. These cannot be swapped at will. You have a once every three day option to change a single spell at your trainer. With a Blood of Dragons (rare drop item, or shop item), you can swap as many spells as you wish in a 1 hour period of time.
Due to the small number of viable divine spells, FvS's currently have the advantage here. Only level 6 and level 8 spell slots are tight, and tough to fit all the desired spells into. This advantage may change with future changes to the game.
A FvS's Aura of Menace will cause a -2 spell resistance penalty to any enemy within the Aura's range, if Angel of Vengeance II was taken.
The Angel of Vengeance PrE for FvS's grants a 30% increase in the damage of fire, physical, and untyped damage. This increase is 20% if the FvS only took Angel of Vengeance I.
A FvS's Shield of Condemnation has a 10% chance to proc a debuff on whatever hits the FvS (or whoever the FvS named as his or her champion). The debuff will increase the damage of light (Divine Punishment) and alignment based damage for a short period of time, and can stack up to 5 times.
The summoned Archon will add a small bit of light damage to the lowest HP mob within your Aura of Menace that has been damaged. This light damage is boosted by a Shield of Condemnation proc. The Archon can also serve as a light for the quest Rainbow in the Dark. The Archon is only available if Angel of Vengeance II was taken.
FvS's are granted the Improved Empowering enhancements, while Clerics are granted the Improved Empower Healing enhancements. Both affect Cure spells, Empowering affects damage spells, Empower Healing affects Heal and Mass Heal.
FvS's have 525 more base spell points, and are granted higher bonuses from spell point items (Power/Wizardry/Magi, and Greensteel SP items). The bonus depends on how "pure" a FvS is, so an 18/2 split will only get 190 SP off a Magi item instead of 200. Both Clerics and FvS's gain 29 SP per two points of their SP stat (WIS for Clerics, CHA for FvS's). Due to the small SP per stat gains, it is not worth adding excessive points into CHA on an FvS.
Clerics cast Light and healing spells two levels higher due to the Radiant Servant PrE. Divine Punishment is stated to cap at caster level 20. Many healing spells also cap at caster level 20.
FvS's do not have access to the Seek Eternal Rest spell. Since this spell only affects Turn Undead, it's not applicable to FvS's anyway.


Melee and equipment proficiencies

Clerics can gain proficiency with certain weapon types (dependent on the faith chosen) via an enhancement. It consumes a turn undead attempt, but only needs to be used once per session. The enhancement also grants +1 to hit with that weapon type. Clerics can change faiths if they so choose via an enhancement swap.
FvS's are granted proficiency with certain weapon types based on the faith feat line they choose at character creation. Later feats grant +1 to hit and +2 to damage for that weapon type. These feats cannot be easily changed without a Lesser or Greater Reincarnation.
FvS's can also take enhancements to gain up to +2 additional damage with their chosen weapon type
Clerics have Heavy Armor proficiency, while FvS's do not. All other proficiencies are the same. This only matters if you melee.


Healing

Clerics cast healing spells two levels higher than their class level due to the Radiant Servant PrE. For some spells, this does not matter as they cap at levels 20 or below.
The Cleric Radiant Servant PrE changes Empower Healing from a 50% boost to a 75% boost.
Clerics can expend a turn to create a healing aura. The amount healed is adjusted by Life Magic enhancements, the Empower Healing meta, class level, and equipment based bonuses.
Clerics can expend a turn to use a healing burst centred on themselves. This burst is modified by all the above effects, as well as the Empower and Maximize metas. The burst damages undead, and can remove negative levels of allies in the burst radius. The burst can be used while within a Beholder's anti-magic aura, can be used under the effects of a Quell's Intercession, but cannot be used while under the effects of Madstone Rage.
FvS's following the Sovereign Host line are granted a free Cure Light Wounds spell that is affected by metamagics (at no cost) at level 20.


Other class abilities

FvS's are granted three different stacking 10 elemental resistances.
FvS's are granted 10 DR of a metal type related to their faith at cap. Only the Adamantine DR for a Warforged Lord of the Blades FvS can be broken by monsters in the current game. If a Lord of the Blades FvS took a racial DR feat, that feat stacks with the 10 DR from the class.
FvS's are granted Leap of Faith at level 17, which can let you "fly" over gaps and obstacles. You can activate Leap of Faith while constrained by Dungeon Alert or Binding Chains.
Clerics are granted Turn Undead, which can either make undead cower in fear or outright destroy them if you succeed. There are several items that modify Turning abilities, along with the Cleric past life. Note that it requires serious effort to get a viable Turn Undead for high level undead content.
FvS's are granted class access to the Jump skill. Clerics are not. All other class skills are identical. Skill points per level are also identical.
FvS's are granted access to Attack, Damage, and Saves action boosts.
Clerics are granted several abilities that are based off of turns. Divine Might (additional damage for 1 minute), Divine Vitality (give spell points to an ally), Divine Cleansing (cure several effects, curses, and grant a Fortitude save bonus), Divine Light (an AoE light damage effect), or Divine Healing (a heal-over-time effect).
FvS's can access 1 more CHA via enhancements.
FvS's have access to four levels of class toughness, for up to 40 additional HP over an identically built Cleric. Hit dice are identical.
Clerics have access to the Divine Intervention capstone enhancement if they are pure at cap. This will prevent you or whoever else you target with the ability from dying if you suffer extreme damage. It can also allow you to survive several normally instant kill effects, like the Portal to the Battleground in front of the VoD raid, or having a pillar dropped on you in the Titan raid.
Clerics with the Radiant Servant PrE will have regenerating turns.
Cleric is a completely free class. FvS must be bought or unlocked for 2,500 favour.
A FvS will have 6 higher reflex saves than an identically built and equipped Cleric. Other saves remain the same, barring a potential +1 Will save to the Cleric if their potential +1 WIS takes them up a step.
FvS's are immune to a Quell's Intercession.
A Cleric who gets hit with the Feebleminded spell will lose all turns they have. The turns will regenerate slowly due to Radiant Servant. This can severely impact some class abilities, and is a commonly cast spell in the mid levels.
The Cleric passive past life feat grants a +1 DC boost to Conjuration spells (healing and Cometfall), and a boost to Turn Undead.
The Cleric active past life feat grants a 5 use per rest healing clickie (1d4+1d4/2 caster levels), and +2 to the currently nearly useless Heal skill.
The FvS passive past life feat grants +1 to your spell penetration, and 20 stacking spell points.
The FvS active past life feat provides a 10 use per rest light damage spell (1d8+1d8/3 caster levels), and +2 to your Diplomacy skill.

jwdaniels
02-15-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm going to summarize my thoughts for you (having capped both classes more than once):

A cleric is the better healer (radiant servant pretty much guarantees this) and much more versatile. Favored Souls get more SP, but radiant servants don't need to spend nearly as much SP healing because of auras, bursts and class buffs to healing spells. Clerics are also more versatile in terms of spell selection because they can swap spells and carry more of them.

Favored Souls generally heal almost as well as a cleric and fill a secondary function better (either melee/buffing or casting) but the third function they don't focus on they do far worse.

The two classes don't play even remotely the same, so which one you prefer will come down to how you want to play.

goodspeed
02-15-2012, 01:42 PM
Go favored. You get a pair of wings, a ****load of sp, fun divine blasting spells, and can even melee it up. The odd thing is, you can be a half assed heal and no one cares to much because their aren't alot of healers around. All ya need is the icon. So it's tripple win.

Try going cleric fighter 18/2 splash. All flippn hell breaks loose and the declaration of gimp assumption. It's a damn witch hunt.

jwdaniels
02-15-2012, 01:47 PM
There is no reason not to take either PrE to the maximum possible level, as there are currently no other choices.

This is not true at all, actually. If you are going for the warforged favored soul lord of blades melee build (search Soul Survivor by sirgog on the forum) you're not going to take the AoV PrE because it doesn't really help you and you don't have the enhancement points.

I recommend this build whole-heartedly, even if you don't have 36 point build and all the bells and whistles, as it is very solid.

Sarisa
02-15-2012, 02:57 PM
This is not true at all, actually. If you are going for the warforged favored soul lord of blades melee build (search Soul Survivor by sirgog on the forum) you're not going to take the AoV PrE because it doesn't really help you and you don't have the enhancement points.

I recommend this build whole-heartedly, even if you don't have 36 point build and all the bells and whistles, as it is very solid.

It does help with the u11/u12 raid boss changes. The fortification debuff and light damage boost proc can greatly help you and your parties damage contribution. AoV II isn't necessary, but I would consider AoV I worth the cost.

Dwarfo
02-15-2012, 03:21 PM
This is not true at all, actually. If you are going for the warforged favored soul lord of blades melee build (search Soul Survivor by sirgog on the forum) you're not going to take the AoV PrE because it doesn't really help you and you don't have the enhancement points.

I recommend this build whole-heartedly, even if you don't have 36 point build and all the bells and whistles, as it is very solid.

He takes the first part of AOV, the second is basically worthless. AOV 1 is definitly worth it.

Sarisa
02-15-2012, 03:32 PM
Edited to say that only AoV I was necessary, and did slight edits elsewhere.

zchristian1
02-15-2012, 05:32 PM
If you're trying to decide on a new character and you have access to it, definitely Favored Soul.

1. Favored Souls get plenty of spells. Many spells in the game are fluff and/or can be scrolled/clickied anyways.
2. Favored Souls get more spell points (more points to make enemies go splat).
3. A pure Favored Soul can get the free healing capstone which is nice to have.
4. A pure Favored Soul gets DR.
5. Favored Souls get wings at level 17.
6. With the current state of prestiges, Favored Souls will deal more spell damage.

The only thing a Cleric has an advantage in is with their healing aura. It's nice in some situations and can save spell points at times, but with the already greater spell point pool Favored Souls get, it doesn't really make that much of a difference.

Healing-wise Clerics might be able to heal more per heal, but this is pretty meaningless. A Favored Soul with very few healing enhancements or much else invested into the healing line is still more than capable of quality raid healing.
So, which spells do you take at each level?

Also, what spec (template) would be good?

Uchuujin-San
02-15-2012, 06:29 PM
Two of the best FvS templates IMO are Impaq's Evoker (caster style) and SirGog's SoulSurvivor (melee style). If you search the class spellcaster sub-forum they should both be there. Neither of them require the best gearing to be effective and whichever one you should take depends on your playstyle.

The essential healing spells are pretty much mass heal, heal, and at least 1 mass cure (2 is better for high sustained damage periods). Divine punishment and blade barrier will be the staple damage spells. implosion, destruction and slay living are good if you have DC's. and Harm is just silly nice to have if you can fit it in. if i remember correctly both guides have a spell list as well.

Sgt_Hart
02-15-2012, 07:25 PM
One thing no one has yet mentioned is how much faster FVS Blow through SP.

Hold on, Save your Scorn and hate until the end.

Metamagic feats (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Metamagic_feats). Empower = +15 SP. Empower heal = +10.

Now, reduce by enhancements... -4 So.. 11/6
Now reduce by gear.... -2(AFAIK) 9/4

So even with every possible reduction an empowered Soul's heal is still more than TWICE as expensive as a Cleric's.

Ok, Now proceed with Hatred and Scorn.

Likewise, the Empower healing on a cleric with Pre 2 = +75% not the +50 a fvs get's. I gather a maximize also hit's on Cure * spells, but that's another -25 SP.

And now that the math is laid out..

A favored soul will not, be a better healer than a cleric. Coincidently, the Soul's Prestige line lends towards damage spells.

That said the player's of Soul's tend to be better at DDO than the cleric. That however is a Mean (http://www.mathsisfun.com/mean.html) value and (I think) skewed by all the terrible lvl 1-6 favor farmers who want to throw up korthos groups and run. Usually, such people are not ViP's, and if they have FvS its probably only on their 'home' server.

Kayla93
02-16-2012, 12:15 AM
One thing no one has yet mentioned is how much faster FVS Blow through SP.

Hold on, Save your Scorn and hate until the end.

Metamagic feats (http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Metamagic_feats). Empower = +15 SP. Empower heal = +10.

Now, reduce by enhancements... -4 So.. 11/6
Now reduce by gear.... -2(AFAIK) 9/4

So even with every possible reduction an empowered Soul's heal is still more than TWICE as expensive as a Cleric's.

Ok, Now proceed with Hatred and Scorn.

Likewise, the Empower healing on a cleric with Pre 2 = +75% not the +50 a fvs get's. I gather a maximize also hit's on Cure * spells, but that's another -25 SP.

And now that the math is laid out..

A favored soul will not, be a better healer than a cleric. Coincidently, the Soul's Prestige line lends towards damage spells.

That said the player's of Soul's tend to be better at DDO than the cleric. That however is a Mean (http://www.mathsisfun.com/mean.html) value and (I think) skewed by all the terrible lvl 1-6 favor farmers who want to throw up korthos groups and run. Usually, such people are not ViP's, and if they have FvS its probably only on their 'home' server.

Depends how u look at it. I have 20 lvl fvs and do not take empower healing at all. Why? Because my massess and cure critical heal mostly to the full bar.
Yeah clerics hits harder vwith heals. A lot of hitting for 800+.
But lets be serious... Most toons have 500-600 hp. U probably dont want to let then lower than 150-200 hp in fight. So well.... healing for 600-800 is just overkill. Not needed one.

To add to that now we have superior devotion 9 on alchemical items. What makes heal even wihout any metamagics overkill for most players.

Ashbinder
02-16-2012, 04:08 AM
FvS vs. Cleric.

FvS has wings. Cleric doesn't.

QFT.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 04:51 AM
Hi,
I tried to research the difference between the cleric and the Favored Soul, but only found old info:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=188768&page=4

What will be the advantages and disadvantages of each in comparison to each other?

Thanks!

Others have covered a lot of it, and FvS do have some huge advantages:

- FvS capstone DR
- FvS much bigger SP pool
- FvS PrE gives +30% BB damage
- FvS Wings

But I want to re-emphasize the spell slot issue:

The horrible lack of spell slots on a FvS, combined with the inability to change spells easily, is still painful at level 20, and agonizing while levelling. If you are not already familar with the vast power and variety of the divine spell list, I suggest you play a Cleric before a FvS, so you can learn it. If you just do a FvS, even if you copy somebody else's spell choices, you won't even know what you're missing.

Forzah
02-16-2012, 07:16 AM
Others have covered a lot of it, and FvS do have some huge advantages:

- FvS capstone DR
- FvS much bigger SP pool
- FvS PrE gives +30% BB damage
- FvS Wings

But I want to re-emphasize the spell slot issue:

The horrible lack of spell slots on a FvS, combined with the inability to change spells easily, is still painful at level 20, and agonizing while levelling. If you are not already familar with the vast power and variety of the divine spell list, I suggest you play a Cleric before a FvS, so you can learn it. If you just do a FvS, even if you copy somebody else's spell choices, you won't even know what you're missing.

A bit offtopic, but which DR would you advice, cold iron or silver?

Habreno
02-16-2012, 07:33 AM
A bit offtopic, but which DR would you advice, cold iron or silver?

Cold Iron is rarely bypassed even if you decide to *gasp* PVP, while most people will have Silver weapons for Harry beaters. Some people go Cold Iron for that reason. But aside from that, there is currently no difference, as neither is bypassed by any enemy.



And about Cleric vs Favored Soul.

There is one guaranteed reason you will want to be a Cleric over a Favored Soul: Versatility.

I've argued this point in many a thread. Came to the conclusion that Souls get better melee than an appropriately built Cleric, they get better offensive casting than a Cleric (mainly due to the state of PrE's in the game) and they're about equal in healing power.


But build a Soul to do all three. It's very difficult, nigh impossible, to do that. Clerics have no problems.

Melee? Got to have a decent STR.
HP? CON
DC's? WIS

Souls need CHA for spellcasting, as well. And both classes need DEX if you want to TWF (don't recommend it unless you're a 36-point build and have +3 tomes available) , and INT if you want skills.

So, this leaves at best, 3 stats for the Cleric and 4 for the Favored Soul. That's stretching a bit.

Add TWF: 4 stats for the Cleric, 5 for the Favored Soul. Oh boy. Now the Soul is starting to feel that pain of that extra stat.


15-12-12-8-18-8 is my current Cleric build. Maxed WIS, high STR. He's an Elf, but Human/HElf would have same stat spread (4 points in DEX and CON vs 2 in DEX and 6 in CON on Elf); he has +3 tomes in most stats, is well-geared, and well-rounded.

If he was a Favored Soul? I'd be forced into 2 CHA enhancements or be forced to keep my Amara's Band on and be unable to replace it with Kyosho's Ring, which ends up being 4 damage and 4 to-hit per swing (2 STR modifiers, +1/+2 exceptional, and 2 from set bonus), unless I gave up L8/L9 spells for that point in time.


The Cleric is highly more Versatile than the Favored Soul. You have less stats to worry about, you have healing over time which you can set and forget for a bit, and you have the power to be unkillable for 5 minutes if you go pure, even through things which would kill anybody else- 100% immunity to death, until you drop to -9 HP. Then it gives a small CLW and fades.

Deathblock? Don't need it. 1 vs Finger of Death? Living (And have a SS to prove it) even without Deathblock/Deathward.
Aggro switches without losing buffs? DI, let them incap. Boom, aggro dumped.
Need to get the lights for VoD? Easy.
Soloing Beholders? Bursts will restore neg levels and heal you. Take your time. They can't instakill you thanks to DI as well.

morticianjohn
02-16-2012, 07:33 AM
A bit offtopic, but which DR would you advice, cold iron or silver?

you choose the SLA you want in general rather than choosing the DR you want. There are very few mobs that break any FvS DR so the most important thing is getting the SLA that fits your playstyle best. Would you rather have a searing light or a cure light wounds SLA?

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 07:48 AM
snip snip snip




Sarisa you rock!

The...
10capstone DR (I have DoD and that 10 DR is still amazing)
6 higher reflex (that's huge on a class that can get decent reflex saves, even without evasion)
40 extra hp (AP not that tight, at least 30)
wings (ultimate middle finger to red alert)
3x10 energy resistance (always nice)
700 or so sp (moar implosions/mass heals etc. cleric with lots of turns lasts longer than you think though)
archon (rediculously sp efficient)
shield of condemnation (-50% fort and +50% light damage is incredible)
30% blade barrier damage (clr BB after fvs BB is /sadpanda)
fact that there are only 3-4 good spells each level (often only 1-2 :()

far outweighs...

the aura (nice, handy, saves you sp)
bursts (nice in undead heavy leveling, nice sp free healing when capped)
slightly stronger heals from better empowered heals/caster level (overhealing most geared players even MORE than fvs, YAY)
DI (can't speak about this as didn't have capstone on any of my clerics-seen it used to great effect though)


I will add though that clerics are far easier to splash; 18/2 on fvs kinda stings a bit for 8th and 9th spell slots in particular. Splashed clerics can very extremely versitile while still being good at healing. Traps, passable melee dps, high AC, etc.

But in terms of raw power, fvs>cleric, quite clearly.

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 08:07 AM
You are right that a cleric is more versitile. However...


Souls need CHA for spellcasting, as well.

Except...not really. I wouldn't call it an "extra stat"

8+7 (helm of frost)+2capstone+2tome=19

I started with 9 charisma. It's plenty.

Not many start with more than 12; there is very little reason to.

So if you want to interpret 0-4 build points as...




Oh boy. Now the Soul is starting to feel that pain of that extra stat.



Feel free, but it's spreading misinformation. Many clerics start with more than dumped charisma anyway for the extra turns. I would say on average clr and fvs charisma is pretty close.

Again, aura is nice. Saves you sp and allows you to be a little lazy. Worth all the fvs benefits? Not even close.

DI is nice, but as a divine very little can kill you anyway. If you are DIing yourself a lot and benefiting from that, your playstyle/build needs some serious adjustments.

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 08:50 AM
Again, this is a difficult comparison because of the way the Favored Soul works. To compare, use a cleric as base. As someone mentioned above, there are two main ways to spec a FvS - as an evoker or as melee.

An evoker FvS will heal slightly less well than a cleric but cast better - this build sacrifices the ability to really mix it up in melee and (since there's no aura to support the meleeing characters) I would say is less useful as a melee combatant.

A melee FvS will heal slightly less well than a cleric but melee much better. This build, however, sacrifices the ability to land any spell with a DC to avoid (which isn't terrible since DP doesn't have a save and BB is only save for half) but can buff and center mass cures/heals on itself which makes for a very powerful combination.

The cleric only heals better because, as someone else pointed out, it uses SP more efficiently (when it needs to use them at all). If you don't know how to use bursts, auras and cures vs. heals it loses a lot of the efficiency. I think it's actually harder to play a cleric optimally than a FvS, which is why people tend to believe that the FvS heals better than a cleric. If your idea of healing is spamming a quickened, empowered, maximized mass heal all day then yes the FvS wins due to a larger SP pool.

Again, though, I say that whichever of the two you will play better is the right choice for you - both are strong classes that (in my opinion) play very differently.

Sarisa
02-16-2012, 08:51 AM
The only real reasons for a FvS to have more than either 19 or 20 CHA is:
You use CHA based skills, like Intimidate or UMD extensively, and need the extra boost.
You run Abbot or eADQ1 a lot, and need to be sure that you can still cast the Heal spell if you get all your CHA equipment disjuncted.

For Divine Intervention, there are a few places I use it:
Freeing someone from the aggro table if they consistently take aggro from a tank, and cannot or will not take off their hate gear/put on threat reduction gear.
Insurance measure on a Shadow kiter or tank in ToD. Yes, they will lose aggro, but they will more quickly be able to recover than with a raise. They can then be ready to back up the back-up.
More easily positioning the Titan in the raid, and not having to worry about instant death from laser shots or pillars dropped on my head.
Quickly and easily open the path to VoD. This is just a time saving measure and doesn't need to be done via DI.
Hitting trapped levers in epics without having to die. This is done in eVoN4 (which I solo regularly), and eWizKing.

Thinking about Abbot also made me remember another difference between the classes.
FvS's are immune to a Quell's Intercession.

countfitz
02-16-2012, 09:20 AM
Do we have to do this again!? Can't someone just link all 200 threads on this topic?

OP. Clerics are better for new players. Once you cap a cleric, play a FvS, hopefully you can get them for free by this time anyway. Clerics are more forgiving and flexible. FvSs are better for more experienced players.

Also, Clerics are easier to have fun with, FvSs have a few builds you have to follow fairly meticulously.

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 09:20 AM
With 20 cha you can get 100% on fireshield scrolls. Perhaps if you want a higher % of teleport. Heal scrolls, luckily, are not an issue :D

Having an extra cushion against ego whip and such would be nice.

Intim isn't a huge issue as it's a cross class skill for fvs so doubt it's possible to get it high enough for LOB and stuff (would LOVE to be proven wrong on this however).



Cleric I found to be better at healing; however healing is very easy either way. It really is. Point and click. Nuke redbars all day long. It's an easy skill and once you get good at it that bluebar goes a rediculously long way. It's melee and/or casting that you want to be speccing/gearing/grabbing PLs for.

morticianjohn
02-16-2012, 09:32 AM
color=red]Due to the small number of viable divine spells, FvS's currently have the advantage here. Only level 6 and level 8 spell slots are tight, and tough to fit all the desired spells into.

First I would like to say great post and very informative.

2nd I am wondering why you don't consider true rez an important spell to have. I don't use it a lot but when it's needed there is no substitute. It is at least as useful and powerful as DI even though it doesn't save the buffs etc... but it also has a higher sucess rate of doing something useful. Too often with DI the person just dies anyway.


You are right that a cleric is more versitile. However...



Except...not really. I wouldn't call it an "extra stat"

8+7 (helm of frost)+2capstone+2tome=19

I started with 9 charisma. It's plenty.

Not many start with more than 12; there is very little reason to.

So if you want to interpret 0-4 build points as...




Feel free, but it's spreading misinformation. Many clerics start with more than dumped charisma anyway for the extra turns. I would say on average clr and fvs charisma is pretty close.

Again, aura is nice. Saves you sp and allows you to be a little lazy. Worth all the fvs benefits? Not even close.

DI is nice, but as a divine very little can kill you anyway. If you are DIing yourself a lot and benefiting from that, your playstyle/build needs some serious adjustments.

Since this post is in the new player advice and guidance forums we should consider that most who would take the advice read here will not have access to a +2 Tome or the proper stat item for the level they are at (until level 15+ when they can easily acquire a +6 CHA item and a +2 tome).

To give you a reference to me I was leveling my 3rd life pally and dumped wisdom. Because I'm cheap and was unwilling to swap toons and craft a +3 wis item (a new player likely could not afford to craft an item like this either) I could not cast my first level spells without drinking a owl's wisdom pot until I got my fens items at level 7.

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 09:59 AM
You are right, new players should probably not start with 8 or 9 cha on a fvs.

But 12 (on the higher range of what I said) is certainly fair game. 12+1enhancements+6 item=19 is not much to ask for at level 18. 12+2capstone+6item=20 is easy at level 20 as well.

Either way, it's not a stat you are pumping on most fvs builds (like con, or str on melee builds, wis on caster builds etc) like that poster was leading people to believe.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 10:47 AM
Thinking about Abbot also made me remember another difference between the classes.
FvS's are immune to a Quell's Intercession.

Has a dev ever commented on that? Though it's handy on my current FvS life, somehow I imagine that it's not WAI, but is, in fact, a bug.

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 10:49 AM
Has a dev ever commented on that? Though it's handy on my current FvS life, somehow I imagine that it's not WAI, but is, in fact, a bug.

Maybe they are just that favored?

Sarisa
02-16-2012, 10:49 AM
Has a dev ever commented on that? Though it's handy on my current FvS life, somehow I imagine that it's not WAI, but is, in fact, a bug.

I have not seen a dev comment about it. FvS is the only divine class that is not affected. Cleric, Paladin, and Ranger are affected.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 10:56 AM
40 extra hp (AP not that tight, at least 30)


Not me. How are you possibly not tight on AP?!? Melee build? Haven't done a melee FvS yet, so I don't know.

Of 7 possible Toughness enhancements I could take, I only had room for 1, so the 40 possible from class did me no good at all.

A better comparision would be if you had, say, 6 points for Toughness enhancements, the available class ones would let you get 10 extra HP for equal cost, 40 for 6 instead of 30 for 6. Or, say, 50 for 9 instead of 40 for 10.



But in terms of raw power, fvs>cleric, quite clearly.


True.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 11:04 AM
A bit offtopic, but which DR would you advice, cold iron or silver?

As someone else pointed out, the capstone SLA you want will determine your faith, and that determines your DR for you.

My current FvS life is an Wis-based offensive caster; being able to heal for free with the Cure SLA, while using my SP to insta-kill stuff, works very well. Also, combined with Heal scrolls, makes keeping a tank up much easier and cheaper.

Some folks like Searing Light, and it may well work better for certain builds. I haven't tried it myself, but for me it wouldn't get used as much, because there's no point in doing some damage to a mob you plan to Destruct or Implode anyway. :-)

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 11:14 AM
Not me. How are you possibly not tight on AP?!? Melee build? Haven't done a melee FvS yet, so I don't know.

Of 7 possible Toughness enhancements I could take, I only had room for 1, so the 40 possible from class did me no good at all.

A better comparision would be if you had, say, 6 points for Toughness enhancements, the available class ones would let you get 10 extra HP for equal cost, 40 for 6 instead of 30 for 6. Or, say, 50 for 9 instead of 40 for 10.

The melee build Favored Soul has plenty of AP for toughness enhancements - you're basically ignoring the prestige (at least the way I did it) and not taking much in the way of casting upgrades either.

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 11:45 AM
A melee FvS will heal slightly less well than a cleric but melee much better.




NO.

Melee Cleric DPS > Melee FVS DPS. Sirgog even agrees (Soul Survivor build creator).

BUT, FVS melee tend to be more survivable (DR, Elemental resists, +6 reflex over cleric, more hps)

Melee clerics have divine might AND often will have haste boost which pure melee souls don't. More dps. Period. Against undead it's not even a contest. Clerics rip the faces off of undead. Melee clerics should be leading kill counts against undead in most/all cases. Maxed/Emped/Emphealed/Ardored bursts burn through undead like a friggin lava-knife through buttermilk.

HOWEVER, raid boss melee dps will favor FVS due to condemn procs.


By the way, the info in thread is a few months from being very out-dated. We have no idea what will shift with the new enhancements.

Also, the devs haven't given clerics their domains yet. :( !!!


My opinion: FVS are better casters (I have one); Clerics are better melee (I have one). But both do both. Also, Clerics heal better, period. But FVS heal very well and in SOME raids, it's better to have the SP (eChrono for instance)

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 11:51 AM
NO.

Melee Cleric DPS > Melee FVS DPS. Sirgog even agrees (Soul Survivor build creator).

BUT, FVS melee tend to be more survivable (DR, Elemental resists, +6 reflex over cleric, more hps)

Melee clerics have divine might AND often will have haste boost which pure melee souls don't. More dps. Period.

HOWEVER, raid boss melee dps will favor FVS due to condemn procs.


Lastly, the info in thread is a few months from being very out-dated. We have no idea what will shift with the new enhancements.

Lastly, the devs haven't given clerics their domains yet. :( !!!

I'm guessing that you missed the part where I said a typical radiant servant cleric? If you build your cleric for melee it can out DPS a melee FvS, but you're sacrificing some of the versatility that the pure cleric has to accomplish that. There are plenty of multi-class splash builds for FvS also, but my (intentionally simple since this is the New Player forum) analysis ignores them and focuses solely on pure single-class builds. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Angelus_dead
02-16-2012, 11:53 AM
Melee Cleric DPS > Melee FVS DPS. Sirgog even agrees (Soul Survivor build creator).
Cleric only has higher melee DPS if you gimp the Cleric.

Nevthial
02-16-2012, 12:00 PM
I prefer Cleric over FvS for my own characters. I typically only play hybrids and having two casting stats gimps that ability. Radiant Servant PRE makes everything super easy as well. I've seen some fine FvS characters out there, but I don't like being pigeonholed, so they aren't for me.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 12:08 PM
My opinion: FVS are better casters (I have one)


The -2 debuff to nearby mob SR & saves is a nice bonus for FvS casters, as is the huge blue bar.

But it's hard for me to say they are better casters, when they are locked into so many fewer spells.

Full disclosure: I'm currently playing as a caster FvS, and was a caster Cleric on one previous life.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 12:11 PM
The melee build Favored Soul has plenty of AP for toughness enhancements - you're basically ignoring the prestige (at least the way I did it) and not taking much in the way of casting upgrades either.

Figured it was something along those lines. For a caster, when you're scraping for every bit of Wisdom, Spell Penetration and Smiting you can manage, and have sufficient gear/stats for HP anyway, Toughness enhancements kind of take 2nd place. :-)

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 12:12 PM
Cleric only has higher melee DPS if you gimp the Cleric.


What? All you would have to do is splash ONE level of Rogue or Fighter for haste boost and start with a CHA of 12 to get DM I with a +2 tome... This is gimping?

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 12:49 PM
I'm guessing that you missed the part where I said a typical radiant servant cleric? If you build your cleric for melee it can out DPS a melee FvS, but you're sacrificing some of the versatility that the pure cleric has to accomplish that. There are plenty of multi-class splash builds for FvS also, but my (intentionally simple since this is the New Player forum) analysis ignores them and focuses solely on pure single-class builds. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


I'm not trying to be a jack-hole here, but I re-read your post that I quoted. This: "typical radiant servant" does not exist in it.

I assume by "typical radiant servant" you mean max wisdom. A melee cleric has to be max wisdom or is a gimp?? Consider this:


34 point Horc Cleric: 34 point WF Soul Survivor:

STR- 18 (10 bps) 18 (16 bps)
DEX- 8 (0) 8 (0)
CON- 14 (6 bps) 18 (10 bps)
INT- 8 (0) 10 (2 bps)
WIS- 14 (8 bps) 6 (0)
CHA- 14 (10 bps) 12 (6 bps)


DPS Comparison:

Cleric: DM2 = +4 dmg per hit + Haste boosts + 1 to hit and dmg from STR enhancements+ +4 dmg per swing from orcish melee dmg enh + better base weapon (great axe or falchion if neither have esos) PLUS having to stop swinging less due to healing aura....
TOTAL: 9 dmg per swing PLUS haste boost PLUS more time hitting mobs

FVS: +2 dmg per hit from greatsword enh + archon (IF you get it)
TOTAL: 2 dmg per hit + archon

Both get PA enhancements


Against typical mobs, this is not a contest. Against undead? It's LOL.



What am I missing?

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 12:56 PM
What am I missing?

A few points of spell penetration/ DCs as compared to a pure cleric, which go a long way if you're running epics and trying to cast. Also, it's a new player forum, so working with purchaseable/unlockable races and 34 point build might be a tad unrealistic.

That said, I think we agree here that the melee-specced cleric can out DPS the melee-specced FvS. I think we also agree that a pure cleric will have higher DCs and spell penetration and more SP than a splashed cleric.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove exactly.

EDIT: And you're right, I reference the radiant servant cleric earlier in this thread. My apologies.

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 01:28 PM
A few points of spell penetration/ DCs as compared to a pure cleric, which go a long way if you're running epics and trying to cast. Also, it's a new player forum, so working with purchaseable/unlockable races and 34 point build might be a tad unrealistic.

First off, we're comparing melee builds not casters. The Lord of Blades build dumps wisdom completely. The Horc doesn't... So, the cleric still has better DCs not that it matters in epics on either build.

Also.. It takes plenty of gear or/and past lives to shine as a divine caster in epics right now doesn't it? So.... Are YOU being "unrealistic" to be taking about this to a new player? Finally, I used the Sirgog build because YOU brought it up earlier in the thread. He lists it as a 34 point build. (With adjustments if it's not)



That said, I think we agree here that the melee-specced cleric can out DPS the melee-specced FvS. I think we also agree that a pure cleric will have higher DCs and spell penetration and more SP than a splashed cleric.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove exactly.

HUH? What happened to this:


A melee FvS will heal slightly less well than a cleric but melee much better.


So... I guess we both agree you were wrong when you said this??
Also, as an aside, Rad Serv has nothing to do with wisdom does it? My melee cleric is a rad II and heals just gravy.


EDIT: And you're right, I reference the radiant servant cleric earlier in this thread. My apologies.

Accepted. ;) But "Radiant Servant" =/= max wisdom cleric caster AT ALL. The two are un-related. Hence why my low-wis melee cleric is a Rad serve with full healing. The ONLY thing he lacks compared to a FVS or caster cleric is spell points. That's what a torc, conc-opp, twisted talisman, etc.. are for. Basically, he will need pots to heal SOME leet and epic raids. I'm fine with that and I understand it.

Combat_Wombat
02-16-2012, 01:54 PM
fvs have 2 advantages over clerics

having a fvs in the party gives a great boost to light damage and -fort vs bosses(only need one for this though)
and fvs have a 1-2 dc advantage over clerics in short range DC based casting because of aura

clerics have some as well
1 casting stat, fvs need chr for casting and wis for dcs so most dump chr leaving them much more vulnerable to stat damage and disjunctions than a cleric since they would never dump wisdom
more spells slots currently not a huge deal but as the game develops this is likely to become harder and harder for fvs
superior melee damage clerics get divine might and can easily splash in melee levels without much lost for other benefits also this jives well with the radiant servant aura allowing for more time for hitting then healing

other then that its all gravy fvs have more sp but thats negated by radiant servant providing massive free healing to even the most chr dumped clerics leaving almost all SP for offensive casting, fvs get DR but everyone can have unlimited stoneskin clickies so its just a matter of paying attention to buffs in most situations

wings are meh, cool if you do allot of explorer areas and for zerging vale and shav quests with easy high DAs as you level but post that its pretty useless

the extra reflex and inherent resistances are alright but you can just do a monk/rogue splash on a cleric and get something 10x better without losing anything useful not as easy to splash with fvs the capstones are the selling point for allot of people

in summary you really cant go wrong as long as you have half an idea what you are doing when you build either

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 02:13 PM
fvs have 2 advantages over clerics

having a fvs in the party gives a great boost to light damage and -fort vs bosses(only need one for this though)
and fvs have a 1-2 dc advantage over clerics in short range DC based casting because of aura

clerics have some as well
1 casting stat, fvs need chr for casting and wis for dcs so most dump chr leaving them much more vulnerable to stat damage and disjunctions than a cleric since they would never dump wisdom
more spells slots currently not a huge deal but as the game develops this is likely to become harder and harder for fvs
superior melee damage clerics get divine might and can easily splash in melee levels without much lost for other benefits also this jives well with the radiant servant aura allowing for more time for hitting then healing

other then that its all gravy fvs have more sp but thats negated by radiant servant providing massive free healing to even the most chr dumped clerics leaving almost all SP for offensive casting, fvs get DR but everyone can have unlimited stoneskin clickies so its just a matter of paying attention to buffs in most situations

wings are meh, cool if you do allot of explorer areas and for zerging vale and shav quests with easy high DAs as you level but post that its pretty useless

the extra reflex and inherent resistances are alright but you can just do a monk/rogue splash on a cleric and get something 10x better without losing anything useful not as easy to splash with fvs the capstones are the selling point for allot of people

in summary you really cant go wrong as long as you have half an idea what you are doing when you build either


I approve of this post. (As if anyone cares, right?) Anyway, +1

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 02:18 PM
First off, we're comparing melee builds not casters. The Lord of Blades build dumps wisdom completely. The Horc doesn't... So, the cleric still has better DCs not that it matters in epics on either build. Actually, I was comparing a splashed cleric to a pure cleric. The pure cleric will have higher DCs than the splashed cleric. You asked what you're missing by splashing the cleric levels.



Also.. It takes plenty of gear or/and past lives to shine as a divine caster in epics right now doesn't it? So.... Are YOU being "unrealistic" to be taking about this to a new player? Finally, I used the Sirgog build because YOU brought it up earlier in the thread. He lists it as a 34 point build. (With adjustments if it's not)
Not really, at all, no. My cleric has a single past life, no epic gear, no raid gear and just con/op SP goggles and a HP/air guard cloak for greensteel yet does just fine in epics - my implosions hit, my aura heals just fine and I never run out of spell points. Also, the sirgog build runs just as well on 32 points as 34 (I ran it on a first life, so this I know) and sirgog even says so.





HUH? What happened to this:



So... I guess we both agree you were wrong when you said this??
Also, as an aside, Rad Serv has nothing to do with wisdom does it? My melee cleric is a rad II and heals just gravy.
When I refer to a radiant servant cleric, what I mean is a pure 20th level cleric. Not a melee cleric, so know I wasn't wrong. Perhaps unclear, but not wrong.



Accepted. ;) But "Radiant Servant" =/= max wisdom cleric caster AT ALL. The two are un-related. Hence why my low-wis melee cleric is a Rad serve with full healing. The ONLY thing he lacks compared to a FVS or caster cleric is spell points. That's what a torc, conc-opp, twisted talisman, etc.. are for. Basically, he will need pots to heal SOME leet and epic raids. I'm fine with that and I understand it.

Again, when I say radiant servant cleric I'm talking pure cleric with max wisdom - you know, a general build cleric with the radiant servant prestige. Again, sorry if I wasn't clear.

I repeat that I'm pretty sure we agree on all points, so I don't really understand the argument.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 02:42 PM
A few points of spell penetration/ DCs as compared to a pure cleric, which go a long way if you're running epics and trying to cast.
<snip>
I think we also agree that a pure cleric will have higher DCs and spell penetration and more SP than a splashed cleric.


Why would splashing up to 3 levels cause a Cleric to lose ANYTHING from their DCs? Their DCs will be just as good.

Each level splashed will cost 1 point of Spell Penetration, but that really might not matter much; plenty of mobs have no Spell Resistance, and some others have Spell Resistance that's out of reach without gear and past lives to back it up, regardless of whether you splash.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 02:45 PM
Actually, I was comparing a splashed cleric to a pure cleric. The pure cleric will have higher DCs than the splashed cleric.


Actually, not only will a pure Cleric not have higher DCs than a splashed Cleric, if the splash was 2 or 3 Monk levels, it will be the splashed Cleric with the higher DCs, when in Ocean stance.

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 02:54 PM
Why would splashing up to 3 levels cause a Cleric to lose ANYTHING from their DCs? Their DCs will be just as good.

Each level splashed will cost 1 point of Spell Penetration, but that really might not matter much; plenty of mobs have no Spell Resistance, and some others have Spell Resistance that's out of reach without gear and past lives to back it up, regardless of whether you splash.

Because the melee cleric build that was posted earlier had an 18 strenght and a 14 wisdom base, so it's losing 2 points from it's DC.

You don't need a past life bonus or uber gear to increase spell penetration just a feat or two and an easy to find item.

jwdaniels
02-16-2012, 02:55 PM
Actually, not only will a pure Cleric not have higher DCs than a splashed Cleric, if the splash was 2 or 3 Monk levels, it will be the splashed Cleric with the higher DCs, when in Ocean stance.

Again, it was the fighter splash with the 18 str and the 14 wis that he referenced earlier in the thread.

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 07:34 PM
Brosky... I don't get it.

I think the "confusion" is that you are defining "cleric" in a very narrow sense.

First of all, "Radiant Servant" is a PrE. You can be a "Radiant Servant" with only 6 levels of cleric class.

Secondly, There are just as many ways to build a "cleric" as there are ways to build a favored soul (more ways actually if you're talking about viability)

So, I don't understand why you are keeping cleric confined to a max wis pure build. That's a great build; don't get me wrong. But, there are lots of others.

How about a 12/8 Cleric/Monk?
How about a 12/6/2 Cleric/Monk/FTR
How about a 12/6/2/ Cleric/FTR/Monk

How about a 17/3 Cleric/FTR <--- EDIT: Called out. This doesn't make sense. Thanks SirVal. ;)
18/2 Cleric/FTR
19/1 Cleric/FTR

17/3 Clonk
18/2 Clonk
19/1 Clonk

17/2/1 Cleric/Monk/Rogue
17/2/1 Cleric/Monk/FTR

As Sir Val mentions, a Human Max-wis Cleric Monk in water stance has the best divine DCs in the game I think.

Bottom line: You're taking the word "cleric" and making it one thing when part of the value of "cleric" is that it's actually MORE versatile than a FVS.

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 07:47 PM
Actually, I was comparing a splashed cleric to a pure cleric. The pure cleric will have higher DCs than the splashed cleric. You asked what you're missing by splashing the cleric levels.

I was asking what DPS I'm missing. The original comparison was YOU saying fvs melee better than clerics. Now, you're saying you meant that melee-build fvs melee better than caster-build clerics... That's really the point you were making? Seems pretty obvious doesn't it?



Not really, at all, no. My cleric has a single past life, no epic gear, no raid gear and just con/op SP goggles and a HP/air guard cloak for greensteel yet does just fine in epics - my implosions hit, my aura heals just fine and I never run out of spell points.

Depends on the epic I guess. I have trouble with my under-geared caster fvs with implosion in some places.. Maybe you're lucky? :)



Also, the sirgog build runs just as well on 32 points as 34 (I ran it on a first life, so this I know) and sirgog even says so.

This really isn't relevant. You can build both with 32 points. I agree. But his original build was 34 with explanations for 32. Namely, you can't start with 18 str on his build with 32 points. That's an important point. But again, who not really relevant. You brought up Soul Survivor, so I used it as the example.



When I refer to a radiant servant cleric, what I mean is a pure 20th level cleric. Not a melee cleric, so know I wasn't wrong. Perhaps unclear, but not wrong.

Perhaps unclear? "Radiant Servant" means you could have anywhere between 6 and 20 cleric levels... Pretty ambiguous. Also, strictly speaking, it implies NOTHING about wisdom.



Again, when I say radiant servant cleric I'm talking pure cleric with max wisdom - you know, a general build cleric with the radiant servant prestige. Again, sorry if I wasn't clear.

I forgive you. ;)


I repeat that I'm pretty sure we agree on all points, so I don't really understand the argument.

Argument is this: "Cleric" =/= 20 levels with max wis. Also, "Radiant Servant" =/= 20 levels of cleric with max wis.

Lastly, melee clerics beat melee fvs in dps usually.

That's all I'm sayin' yo.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 08:26 PM
Because the melee cleric build that was posted earlier had an 18 strenght and a 14 wisdom base, so it's losing 2 points from it's DC.


But that has nothing to do with whether you splash or not. Of course your Wisdom affects your DCs. Splashing does not.



You don't need a past life bonus or uber gear to increase spell penetration just a feat or two and an easy to find item.


There's lots of ways to increase spell pen. But have you increased it enough to overcome the Spell Resistance of the mobs you are facing? That's the important point. If you are easily beating it anyway (or facing mobs without Spell Resistance), losing a point to a splash doesn't matter. If you are always failing anyways, losing a point to a splash doesn't matter.

SirValentine
02-16-2012, 08:34 PM
How about a 17/3 Cleric/FTR


Hmm...I'm a little skeptical of this one. What does a 3rd Ftr level get you? Not a feat, no useful enhancement.



As Sir Val mentions, a Human Max-wis Cleric Monk in water stance has the best divine DCs in the game I think.


I keep hoping they'll someday give Clerics a capstone that includes +2 Wis. Maybe with the new enhancement system coming out...

MeliCat
02-16-2012, 08:53 PM
I mention the following examples in passing...

My caster build human FvS has just hit 12 and is soloing the Vale. A little slower and with more shrines than at higher levels but still comfortably. She has fens ring+ head set, fens evoc neck, 0% fort and no con item. Solid as. I have a level 20 build same with not much more gear and she has been dragged into pretty much everything. But as mentioned a caster build FvS is horrible to get to level 12.

A lot of raid tank healing can be done comfortably with a stack of heal scrolls and FvS capstone - depending on tank choice (DR and/or AC)

Standing next to Horry high heal amp tank glowing cleric aura with stack of scrolls can be done. Carefully.... Capstone has saved me many times.

I ran a caster helf FvS with a sorc dili to 20 and amused myself with things like shield wands, displ scrolls, teleport, greater teleport, cone of cold in inferno. She's gimp (although again she can be dragged into anything much) and I keep thinking to LR her into a max con build but I love my DCs too much.

There is end game and there is leveling the silly things. I am not the most uber player but I now have 2 FvS at cap, 2 pure clerics at cap, 1 2nd TR clonk at cap, and a few others at different levels. They're fun :) Roll both!

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Hmm...I'm a little skeptical of this one. What does a 3rd Ftr level get you? Not a feat, no useful enhancement.

.... 2 hit points?? lol Ok, you caught me on that one. Main point remains true




I keep hoping they'll someday give Clerics a capstone that includes +2 Wis. Maybe with the new enhancement system coming out...

YES! A wis race would be nice too... Also.. Did I mention domains?

Meat-Head
02-16-2012, 09:17 PM
Ya know what? These disagreements are pointless.. My B for derailing.


OP: Divines are friggin sweet. They are all fun (except the first 11 levels of fvs casters IMO ;) )

You can't lose for the most part. Roll one.

Besides that, as I said earlier, all this is theoretical. In a few months with enhancement changes, it would be a new ballgame. Raise your hand if you're looking as forward to warpriest as me!

I hope I don't have to lose my aura though! I love that thing like a fat kid loves Doritos.

-Signed a Fat Kid who loves Doritos.... and divine classes. :)

butcheredspirit
02-16-2012, 10:04 PM
Sounds like we can take more than 1 prestige of the same class.

I'd be loathe to give up my aura or bursts!

I may possibly take the first tier of warpriest - if it offers martial weapon proficiency and tower shields (as pnp).

Otherwise I'll use the same work around as always, fighter dilettante or masters touch.

The one I really want is Exorcist of the Silver Flame.
Finally clerics get a boost to their outsider/demon smiting role.
The possible buff to weapon damage...or banishing spells sounds very fun.
Turning Evil Outsiders. Bring it on! I wonder if radiant servant greater turning, will apply here?

MRMechMan
02-16-2012, 11:40 PM
fvs get DR but everyone can have unlimited stoneskin clickies so its just a matter of paying attention to buffs in most situations



This one made me chuckle.

Such755
02-17-2012, 06:09 AM
I have no experience with a favored soul, but I will advice you this:
Cap a cleric, then TR into a favored soul.
Why?
1) You will gain PRICELESS experience with all the spells.
Chaging spells as FvS can be done only once every 3 days, and it costs Plat. A lot of plat. (Otherwise, use blood of dragons which is rare \ comes from Argonessen favor \ bought by TP - to swap as many spells as you want for ONE HOUR). It's much better to know the spells, instead of guessing or following suggestions here (NOTE: Suggestions are very valueable, but nothing is more valueable than experience)
I first made a sorcerer, before I TRed into wizard, and what was most annoying is selecting spells and changing them. I didn't get to try them all for myself, and I regrat that the most.

2) You will have more build points, which seems very important. Your main ability will be wisdom, but you also need more charisma for SP. Clerics only need wisdom for both spell abilities and SP. (They can put dump into charisma for more positive energy bursts)

Just my advice.

jwdaniels
02-17-2012, 08:48 AM
I am defining a cleric as a 20th level cleric specced for general use (as I thought I specified in my OP) to provide a baseline for comparison as the "can do everything pretty well" standard. It's sort of like taking the density of water to be equal to 1 so you have a baseline for comparison to work with.

Yes, you can then splash levels into the cleric to make it better at some things - there's always going to be some sort of tradeoff - but even that gets compared to the same baseline (20th level cleric max wisdom, general spec) for the purposes of my comparison.

I in no way intended to compare a 17/3 cleric monk with a 19/1 cleric fighter and a WF FvS Lord of Blades. My (intentionally simple) comparison was for a pure cleric vs. a pure favored soul, because that is what the original question was.

Meat-Head
02-17-2012, 10:33 AM
I am defining a cleric as a 20th level cleric specced for general use (as I thought I specified in my OP) to provide a baseline for comparison as the "can do everything pretty well" standard. It's sort of like taking the density of water to be equal to 1 so you have a baseline for comparison to work with.

Yes, you can then splash levels into the cleric to make it better at some things - there's always going to be some sort of tradeoff - but even that gets compared to the same baseline (20th level cleric max wisdom, general spec) for the purposes of my comparison.

I in no way intended to compare a 17/3 cleric monk with a 19/1 cleric fighter and a WF FvS Lord of Blades. My (intentionally simple) comparison was for a pure cleric vs. a pure favored soul, because that is what the original question was.


Jw, I'm sure you're a nice guy. I think you have good intentions here. But your communication and/or ideas are bizzare, confusing, and potentially unhelpful to the OP.

1. I re-read your posts AGAIN to see if I was missing something.
2. You NEVER "specified" what you meant by "Cleric" is your original posts. You merely said you were comparing the two main FVS builds against a "cleric" as a base.
3. To compare these builds to a "generalist cleric" is... strange to me. You're saying a melee-build fvs will melee better than a NON-melee-build cleric...... Is this news?
4. You assume that "cleric" means "generalist" pure max wis. That is just not friggin true brosky. It's confusing to assume as much. Furthermore, it continues some sort of weird presuppositions that people have about clerics. Maybe you're running with your "generalist cleric" a lot so you don't see others. But "cleric" comes in plenty of flavors.
5. The original question DOES NOT say "pure" vs "pure". It just says "cleric" vs "fvs". YOU inserted that information on your own. Part of giving feedback to the OP is to show the real world play with these two classes. In the real (virtual) world, they come in lots of flavors.
6. Your water density example is EXACTLY THE PROBLEM. "Cleric" =/= water. Water is water is water is water. Melee Cleric is not "generalist" cleric is not "caster" cleric is not "Clonk" is not "turn-speced" cleric is not heavily splashed cleric is not.....


I don't know how else to show you this.

Here's what I'm begging you to not do: PLEASE don't use "cleric" to mean max-wis "generalist" pure. If you mean that, then say THAT. Because they ARE NOT THE SAME. You're going to confuse people like the OP.

So yes, a melee-build fvs will out-melee a non-melee build "generalist" pure cleric with max wis....

Kinda like a motorcycle will out run a castle. (What?? That doesn't even make sense!... EXACTLY!)

jwdaniels
02-17-2012, 10:48 AM
I agree with you, I wasn't clear. I am clarifying now - when I say Cleric I mean pure 20 levels of cleric. When I say Favored Soul I mean pure 20 levels of Favored Soul. If I am referring to a splash build, I will specifically say so.

My point was to be taken very general and to represent as simple a situation as possible. That seemed to be what the OP was going for. Sorry that we don't agree on how to define a cleric. I don't consider a cleric 17/ monk 3 clonk or even a cleric 19/ fighter 1 splash to be a cleric - apparently you do. There's nothing right or wrong with either of our definitions here - it's just a difference of opinion.

My point simply was that if you are looking at a pure cleric vs. a pure favored soul, the pure cleric will be more versatile, the pure favored soul will have things it does better and things it does worse. I don't think that is incorrect, nor do I think it isn't useful to someone who is interested in trying the classes (and for a first build I would never try a multi-class) and trying to get a feel for what they might want to play.

As far as a motorcycle and a castle, I think that anaology is a big fail. If you were comparing a Harley to a Honda and looking at top speed, acceleration and gas mileage you might have something comparable to what I said.

Meat-Head
02-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't consider a cleric 17/ monk 3 clonk or even a cleric 19/ fighter 1 splash to be a cleric - apparently you do.


/facepalm

I don't even know what more to say to that.


My point simply was that if you are looking at a pure cleric vs. a pure favored soul, the pure cleric will be more versatile, the pure favored soul will have things it does better and things it does worse.

Ok, to be clear. A PURE cleric dorf with DM will prolly outdps that WF FVS build as well against trash at least. So even THEN you're not right. Which brings us back to the point that when you say "cleric" you limit it to pure AND max-wis build.

Ok, from now on when I say "tree" what I mean is a miniature japanese maple. I don't consider pines, ashes, oaks, spruces, cedars, hemlocks, firs, dogwoods, or elms to be "trees".


Got it................

jwdaniels
02-17-2012, 12:08 PM
/facepalm

I don't even know what more to say to that.



Ok, to be clear. A PURE cleric dorf with DM will prolly outdps that WF FVS build as well against trash at least. So even THEN you're not right. Which brings us back to the point that when you say "cleric" you limit it to pure AND max-wis build.

Ok, from now on when I say "tree" what I mean is a miniature japanese maple. I don't consider pines, ashes, or elms to be "trees".


Got it................

Have you played the Lord of Blades melee FvS? It's not even close - the FvS will win every time.

I don't consider a 18 wizard/ 2 rogue to be a rogue either - is that wrong? Just because a build has levels of a class in it doesn't make it that class - a pure cleric and a clonk play extremely differently and the fighter-splashed version plays differently from the other two. I don't consider them the same.

I actually consider the clonk to be a melee build (mostly because it is) so again your analogy breaks down.

I have accepted that we're not going to agree on basic definitions and therefore we're not arguing the same thing. Apparently you have not, so I'm going to allow you to have the last word now in the interest of not derailing this thread any further.

Meat-Head
02-17-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't consider a 18 wizard/ 2 rogue to be a rogue either - is that wrong?


....No it's not wrong. It's a WIZARD. Just like a 18/2 cleric monk is a CLERIC...

You have strange definitions. I'm pretty sure most people would NOT agree with your definition. Which makes it confusing and unhelpful for the OP.



Have you played the Lord of Blades melee FvS? It's not even close - the FvS will win every time.

/Sigh.

First off, to be fair, I made one but deleted it at like lvl 6 cause I hated the healing penalties. But that's not relevant to the damage. You have some bizzarre thoughts about Lord of Blades damage. They are NOT good trash dps. They are good BOSS dps due to DP, crown procs, AND melee. They LOSE against trash. The math is pretty straightforward.

The dorf will have much higher to-hit (+5 over WF), +2 more favored weapon bonus. He loses up to 3/6 damage on power attack enhancements. which he gains right back with DM3.

Dorf will hit more often AND has +2 per hit base dmg over WF. Oh, did I mention that great axes are better dmg than greatswords?

Lord of Blades are NOT great dps (neither are melee clerics). They shine because they are very survivable and do well against bosses.

To say "it's not even close" is just plain wrong.

BUT, if you have data that proves otherwise, I'm very open to seeing it. Seriously. I could be missing something.

jwdaniels
02-17-2012, 12:58 PM
All right, I lied, but you did ask direct questions so I will answer them:


....No it's not wrong. It's a WIZARD. Just like a 18/2 cleric monk is a CLERIC...

You have strange definitions. I'm pretty sure most people would NOT agree with your definition. Which makes it confusing and unhelpful for the OP.

My assumption was that comparing a cleric and a favored soul meant a pure cleric and a pure favored soul - that seems to be the approach that most of the other posters in this thread took.



First off, to be fair, I made one but deleted it at like lvl 6 cause I hated the healing penalties. But that's not relevant to the damage. You have some bizzarre thoughts about Lord of Blades damage. They are NOT good trash dps. They are good BOSS dps due to DP, crown procs, AND melee. They LOSE against trash. The math is pretty straightforward.

The dorf will have much higher to-hit (+5 over WF), +2 more favored weapon bonus. He loses up to 3/6 damage on power attack enhancements. which he gains right back with DM3.

Dorf will hit more often AND has +2 per hit base dmg over WF. Oh, did I mention that great axes are better dmg than greatswords?

Lord of Blades are NOT great dps (neither are melee clerics). They shine because they are very survivable and do well against bosses.

To say "it's not even close" is just plain wrong.

BUT, if you have data that proves otherwise, I'm very open to seeing it. Seriously. I could be missing something.

To-hit is irrelevant because, outside of epic content, the FvS doesn't miss except on a one. We agree that neither the Lord of Blades nor a pure cleric is top-tier melee DPS. I've played both (although in fairness my dwarf only made it to level 13 before I rolled the Favored Soul) and I would not say that the cleric is significantly better against trash. The difference between greataxe and greatsword is not nearly as much as you seem to think it is, and when stuff dies as quickly as trash does +2 damage per swing does not amount to much extra damage at all.

I will say that, purely based on feel while playing and on my experience, the melee favored soul can solo a ton more stuff than the melee cleric, but the melee cleric is a bigger boon to groups because of the aura.

Now, I am done.

countfitz
02-17-2012, 01:25 PM
....No it's not wrong. It's a WIZARD. Just like a 18/2 cleric monk is a CLERIC...

You have strange definitions. I'm pretty sure most people would NOT agree with your definition. Which makes it confusing and unhelpful for the OP.

Hmmm... just wanted to get in on the discussion.

17+ Cleric = Cleric
12 Cleric = Melee
Any other number of cleric (1-11, 13-16) = Fail

BUT, and here is where it gets complicated, 2+ Rogue = Rogue. Once you've got evasion and access to trap skills and lock picking, you can do any trap/lock in the game with just evasion and those 2 levels if you know how to build, ESPECIALLY on a Wizard with Max Int anyway. "But a rogue is a DPS class!" you say, "Not traps!" No, ALL classes are DPS classes in DDO, so unless you built a 2 rogue, 18 gimp, you're filling a trapfinding role along with DPS.

My wife still calls her 2 rogue/18 Paladin a rogue. It does everythign a rogue does. Traps, locks, evasion, self heals, the only difference is that the DPS comes from smites, the self heals from class abilities, not UMD, but she has 700 HPs unbuffed, where a normal rogue would have 500.

Now, when discussing a cleric, there are two appropriate splashes. 12 levels, self healing, but melee toon. 17 levels (edit: or more), healer plus melee, does everything well, but not the best possible. This works best IMO, because clerics overheal so much anyway, 17 levels is MORE than enough.

Meat-Head
02-17-2012, 01:40 PM
Hmmm... just wanted to get in on the discussion.

17+ Cleric = Cleric
12 Cleric = Melee
Any other number of cleric (1-11, 13-16) = Fail

BUT, and here is where it gets complicated, 2+ Rogue = Rogue. Once you've got evasion and access to trap skills and lock picking, you can do any trap/lock in the game with just evasion and those 2 levels if you know how to build, ESPECIALLY on a Wizard with Max Int anyway. "But a rogue is a DPS class!" you say, "Not traps!" No, ALL classes are DPS classes in DDO, so unless you built a 2 rogue, 18 gimp, you're filling a trapfinding role along with DPS.

My wife still calls her 2 rogue/18 Paladin a rogue. It does everythign a rogue does. Traps, locks, evasion, self heals, the only difference is that the DPS comes from smites, the self heals from class abilities, not UMD, but she has 700 HPs unbuffed, where a normal rogue would have 500.

Now, when discussing a cleric, there are two appropriate splashes. 12 levels, self healing, but melee toon. 17 levels, healer plus melee, does everything well, but not the best possible. This works best IMO, because clerics overheal so much anyway, 17 levels is MORE than enough.


I basically approve of this post. Virtual +1 since I'm out atm.

SirValentine
02-17-2012, 04:36 PM
Any other number of cleric (1-11, 13-16) = Fail


Don't agree. 13 Cleric >> 12 Cleric. You can still get 6+ of another class for a Tier 1 PrE, but your healing aura (you know, the reason you wanted 12 Cleric?) will be 25% stronger. 14 could be OK, too, unless there is something particular you need from another class.

And I'm still considering 9 Cleric / 11 Something Else as an easy way to get a Something Else Past Life. Wouldn't play it at cap, though.

axel15810
02-20-2012, 06:03 AM
If you're new I would say definitely go cleric. Like others have said they are more versatile.

Clerics are better party healers while FVS are better offensive spellcasters. The main advantage of a cleric is healing aura, which is insanely powerful. As a cleric radiant servant you should never have to spend a single spell point to heal on many quests if your party sticks near you and knows what they're doing. By endgame with ardor clickies, empower healing and healing amps you can passive heal for 50 hp every couple seconds and critical for 100hp or so. This negates FVS huge SP advantage when it comes to healing.

But for the expert player FVS will be better because they often play with other expert players who don't need to rely on a healer. Spellcasters who are self sufficient dominate endgame so the cleric's aura and versatility get negated and the extra SP for the FVS means more DPS for the party. Now if you're playing with parties who aren't self sufficient and don't know what they're doing then the cleric aura will be invaluable and I would argue that cleric would be the better class.

Also like others have said FVS are perceived as better because the better players play them more than clerics.

zwiebelring
02-20-2012, 07:59 AM
FvS is easier to play. Less spells to worry about and so less options to worry about. Either instant kill or melee with some healing.

On a FvS you can easily dump WIS filling a melee role. On a Clr I wouldn't do that.

All divine types can do the healing because anyway you need similar if not identical gear, may your toon be melee type or caster type or healbot type.

MRMechMan
02-20-2012, 08:48 AM
All divine types can do the healing because anyway you need similar if not identical gear, may your toon be melee type or caster type or healbot type.

Eh? Melee divines and caster divines have almost entirely different gear.

Different ring slots for different tod sets.
Often different belt for different tod sets (or spare hand if clonk)
Different weapons. (duh)
The caster has to worry about wisdom, spell pen, spell foci items, lore items.
The melee has to worry about str, to-hit, SA item, seeker items.
Entirely different playstyle requires different items, different past lives (wiz+sorc+fvs for caster divines, monk for melees...pally and barb help both) different enhancements, feats etc etc...

Common ground-heavy fort, con item, healing amp...but that is common ground for 90% of characters.


Honestly, healing doesn't require any gear at all. None. Nadda. Healing lore is garbage generally. Only nice ones are eardweller or sup devotion IX item for mass heals.

And you could argue clerics are easier to play due to the "set it and forget it" healing aura, and ability to swap out spells...goes both ways.

deahamlet
03-01-2012, 02:02 PM
All I have to add is that comparing DPS is good, comparing spell ability is good, comparing soloability is good, etc.

Comparing healing ability is useless. A healbot cleric will overheal the entire party just as a healbot FvS will. Past a certain point it's just too much. I got hit for 1000 HP the other day and it wasn't even a crit. Peepz I've only met a couple melees ever with 1000HP.

Player skill makes for much better healers than how much your heals heal for. Or how much SP your have.

jwdaniels
03-01-2012, 02:05 PM
All I have to add is that comparing DPS is good, comparing spell ability is good, comparing soloability is good, etc.

Comparing healing ability is useless. A healbot cleric will overheal the entire party just as a healbot FvS will. Past a certain point it's just too much. I got hit for 1000 HP the other day and it wasn't even a crit. Peepz I've only met a couple melees ever with 1000HP.

Player skill makes for much better healers than how much your heals heal for. Or how much SP your have.

Which is precisely why you should be comparing an ardored and empowered (mass) cure moderate wounds instead of heals - it's far more SP efficient and my radiant servant can get several hundred HPs with mass cure moderate. My FvS never quite got up nearly as high.

ShadowFlash
03-01-2012, 02:40 PM
17+ Cleric = Cleric
12 Cleric = Melee
Any other number of cleric (1-11, 13-16) = Fail


I think the 15/3/2 Cleric "can" be a good build too, but it does blur the melee/cleric line. It's also highly player skill and gear dependant. With the right gear a 15 cleric can cast DP as well as a 20 cleric...BB and Flamestrike caps at 15, with all those extra feats, it's real easy to fit in both stunning fist and stunning blow with very good DC's and an active past life feat...light finishers from monk helps a little with the tiny SP pool. And of course, no lvl 9 spells. Definately requires at least a 34 or 36 point build to pull off...it'll probablly be my next life...

It will definately give a lord of blades a run for it's money DPS wise, plus bring alot of stunning to the table as well.

ShadowFlash

Pape_27
03-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Hi,
I tried to research the difference between the cleric and the Favored Soul, but only found old info:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=188768&page=4

What will be the advantages and disadvantages of each in comparison to each other?

Thanks!

The biggest difference?

Perception.

Roll both + play both + have fun = Win.

Lots pf people in the thread have already stated the technical differences between the two. Why retread that? So I wont.

I will say both are a fun class to play. my advice would be to roll one then the other and enjoy the best of both classes.

Habreno
03-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Oh, did I mention that great axes are better dmg than greatswords?

The only comment I make to this is that this is true UNTIL you acquire the ESOS. In that case, your Dwarf may as well use it. 15-20 x3 crit range is too OP, especially on a +10 weapon with 5d6 damage dice. However, your Dwarf will be able to swap to Epic Antique Greataxe and break boss DR fairly easy, while WF LoB will lose a lot of to-hit and damage if they do so.

Habreno
03-01-2012, 03:31 PM
I think the 15/3/2 Cleric "can" be a good build too, but it does blur the melee/cleric line. It's also highly player skill and gear dependant. With the right gear a 15 cleric can cast DP as well as a 20 cleric...BB and Flamestrike caps at 15, with all those extra feats, it's real easy to fit in both stunning fist and stunning blow with very good DC's and an active past life feat...light finishers from monk helps a little with the tiny SP pool. And of course, no lvl 9 spells. Definately requires at least a 34 or 36 point build to pull off...it'll probablly be my next life...

It will definately give a lord of blades a run for it's money DPS wise, plus bring alot of stunning to the table as well.



The 15/3/2 Cleric build is very niche and specialized. Some view it at 15 Cleric/3 Paladin/(2 Monk/2 Fighter) while others take it as 15 Cleric/3 Monk (for finishers)/2 Fighter (more feats), and still others do other things. General idea though is a solid melee build with a LOT of healing for one.

I want to devote a post just to this concept; 15/3/2, else I'd adjoin with the above.



The 15/3/2 Cleric is very niche. It's a build for solid meleeing, while keeping a lot of spell selection. 15 Cleric caps Blade Barrier, gives you 17 caster levels on cures (15 base, 2 bonus RS II) and 17 CL on DP.

This is also the cutsplit for DM III.

3 Paladin gives Disease/Fear immunity, both auras (very minor) , CHA to saves, and LoH as well as Smite Evil. The biggest part here is the CHA to saves. Going for DM III requires an 18 CHA between base and tomes. 6 item makes 24 CHA, which is already +7 to all saves. Anything further is pure gravy as far as this is concerned.

2 Fighter gives two feats (badly needed) and also gives many weapon proficencies plus Tower Shields and boosts. This also gives 1 STR enhancement.

2 Monk creates a different style of build. This also gives two feats, but in exchange for boosts and a STR enhancement gives stances, of which Earth and Fire are popular with these builds. These are often TWF, vs 2 Fighter builds (often THF, less stat dependency), and as such harder to build.



The 15/3/2 Cleric/Monk/(Fighter/Paladin) is a totally different breed. These builds focus on the TWF of Monks and the fists of light from 3 Monk, and will take either 2 Fighter for two more feats and a STR enhancement or 2 Paladin for CHA to saves, LoH, and a Smite Evil.



Do note that both builds are very effective at melee and do not slack when in backup healing positions. The Cleric/Monk/X is best for this with the toggability of the Aligning the Heavens buff, while the Cleric/Paladin/Fighter is left with not much benefit in this regard.



Another option for a splashed melee Cleric is 14/6. But this is often better as a 13 Cleric or 12 Cleric build. 14 Cleric loses level 8 spells and a further caster level on healing spells, but doesn't gain much over a 13 or 12 build.

StableKobold
04-18-2012, 03:37 AM
Lets say it for short.
Newbies/32 pts build or less/Whoever is not proficinced with healing role/Healbots/Great party member-Cleric.
TRs/Knows the game well/Got gear/Want to have melee,AC,damage spells,And healing/Great Soloer-FvS.
Things that you gotta have on each:
Cleric-SP gear,Potency/Devotion,Healing lore, In most of the cases a good DR shield.
FvS(Not warforged)-HP/SP gear,Potency,Arcane lore,In most of the cases also SP regen item-Torc/Conc opp
FvS(Yes warforged)-HP gear,Potency,Demage gear,Some greatsword-GS/ESoS/Alchemical/Whatever you find.

Lalangamena
04-19-2012, 12:53 AM
You have some bizzarre thoughts about Lord of Blades damage. They are NOT good trash dps. They are good BOSS dps due to DP, crown procs, AND melee. They LOSE against trash. The math is pretty straightforward.



Lord of Blades are NOT great dps (neither are melee clerics). They shine because they are very survivable and do well against bosses.

BUT, if you have data that proves otherwise, I'm very open to seeing it. Seriously. I could be missing something.


I must disagree with you.
WF FVS is the ultimate melee trash killer with the right equipment.

I run with terror, and I don't even bother to turn PA on, because on average I kill every trash mob on crit, due to -2 rolling penalty to spell resistance and saves vs the phantasmal killer (AOV...).
there is no terror that comes in shape of a great axe... and the FVS aura of menace really helps (you cant imagine how until you try it..)

the yugoloth casters in the challenges seems to be immune or having ridiculously high saves, but in other content content.... I leave a trail of blue tentacles on the floor where i pass, including drow....

also BB helps a lot... and FVS BB hitting much harder than clerics


clerics are better healers. (I was playing both)

zwiebelring
04-19-2012, 05:28 AM
That's the point. Terror is no dps. Terror is strange melee cc. Very nice and useful but still no dps.

squishwizzy
04-20-2012, 12:03 PM
A debate over which toon makes the best heal-bot?




























:P

TheHolyDarkness
04-21-2012, 08:06 AM
FvS vs Cleric...I wouldn't have a Cleric, but from what I can theorize, the FvS?

FvS vs. Cleric Monk (with a ruthless stunning fist DC, evasion, self buffed reflex saves into the 40s, 2 extra feats, a choice of extra str/dex/con/wis as required, and, optionally, a 25% spell point discount and extra heal amp) on the other hand...

...Well, now that goes either way. Tough call.

All I know is this: 10 DR + Wings + Blade Barrier + Shoulder Cannon = a feeling that your trolling the enemy better than any other build. And the Divine Punishment of a FvS...well, it can sometime kinda even keep up with a sorc. Meaning it can easily pull aggro off a melee. And considering how inherently survivable that darn class is...perhaps that's sometimes what you intended.

Again, I wouldn't know anything about pure clerics, but it sounds boring compared to a Favored Soul. Then again, a Favored Soul Monk? Without the survivability brought by the DR, not to mention how starved for spell slots you'll already be, I not sure how that'd make sense either.

Mix your cleric with some kung fu. See what happens. In my case, it resulted in having two incredibly awesome healers to choose from. I can't definitely hold one about the other.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

artistx
04-23-2012, 08:20 AM
looks like clerics(and not Favored Souls) will be getting some of the new spells Druids get. check out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=369358

I like playing healers and so far I've made a pure cleric, cleric monk (18/2) and a WF favored soul... of the 3 I like my cleric monk the best since I was able to get the AC into the 80s... now it looks like clerics get some nice new spells...

WruntJunior
04-23-2012, 11:51 AM
looks like clerics(and not Favored Souls) will be getting some of the new spells Druids get. check out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=369358

I like playing healers and so far I've made a pure cleric, cleric monk (18/2) and a WF favored soul... of the 3 I like my cleric monk the best since I was able to get the AC into the 80s... now it looks like clerics get some nice new spells...

I haven't seen anything to indicate that FvS won't be getting those. I would assume FvS have the exact same spell list as a cleric.

Esserbe
04-23-2012, 12:44 PM
Favored Souls cast spells from the Cleric spell list. If it's a Cleric spell and it's not a Domain spell, it's a FvS spell.

Sarisa
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
I also will expect both classes to have equal access to those spells. The only spell a FvS cannot access (aside from domain spells which aren't even in DDO) is Seek Eternal Rest, because it's tied to the Turning ability.