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Maelodic
02-14-2012, 06:32 PM
A good example of the kind of builds I'm talking about are the builds on like this page under Fun Builds:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232
Just okay, but ultimately sub-par. They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?

Ganolyn
02-14-2012, 06:37 PM
They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?


When you start running with people who make this game a job and would rather break your balls than quest. Other than that, usually in high level elite and epic quests you will begin to see a marked decline in your effectivness.

Artos_Fabril
02-14-2012, 06:39 PM
For builds that are fun to play and do not wait until 20 to develop, They are great for TR/completionist lives where raiding is a minor aspect. Similarly for builds that trade focus for versatility, being able to solo (healing+traps+damage+evasion) without having to be 18/X arcane to get through completionist lives.

For people who don't necessarily plan to TR out of them, builds generally wither when their players move into tougher content, such as the harder epics, elite Amrath, or eMA/eLoB.

Thrudh
02-14-2012, 06:49 PM
They last a LONG time... since when you're first starting out, you'll be running the various raids on normal (occasionally hard), and maybe playing around in the easy epics.

Once you've done that for a good amount of time and picked up some decent gear (and even if you have a top-notch build, you'll want to do that), then maybe you can try it out on an elite raid or the harder epics, and that's where you might find it falls short...

And then it's a perfect time to TR.

sirgog
02-14-2012, 06:52 PM
Total joke builds work to level 10 or so. Example of a total joke build: Sor5/Wiz4/Bard6, or the 'level ups in Con, all feats Toughness' warforged barbarian.

Non-optimized builds that aren't total jokes usually work fine in 95% of 6-player content (I'd hestitate in epic VON3, epic Chains of Flame and certainly wouldn't take them in elite Stealer of Souls) and they usually perform fine in the easiest difficulty setting of each raid.

zex95966
02-14-2012, 07:01 PM
it would be impossible to define how long "fun" lasts, since it varies from person to person.
some people play this game and farm quests 20+ times for a specific item, and claim it's fun.

keep in mind some of the builds their are already bashed if you make them.
I made the battlecleric a long time ago as my first character (the one with skill points in heal...) and got so much hate I cry myself to sleep now. ;)

Talon_Moonshadow
02-14-2012, 07:02 PM
Six years, 3803 favor, all but six adventures completed on elite. 3 of those done on hard.

This game is not that difficult.





And since they were specifically mentioned...

Epic Von3: check
Epic Chains of Flame: check
Elite Stealer of Souls: check

blerkington
02-14-2012, 08:13 PM
Hi,

Your question is very general, and the answer depends on what you intend to do at cap.

Running content overlevel, including raids on normal, will be possible. Completing the hardest quests in the game may not be.

Your knowledge of the game, skill as a player, and your character's gear will also play large roles in determining your effectiveness. Build is not the be-all and end-all in this game.

I think it's reasonable to have a build which isn't fully optimised, but you also need to avoid the situation where you're being carried by your group.

Thanks.

mobrien316
02-14-2012, 08:30 PM
The only real answer is that the stop being fun when you, the person playing them, stops having fun.

At that point, if you are level 20, you can TR. If not you can LR.

EllisDee37
02-14-2012, 09:39 PM
There are noticeable power jumps once you get past level 10 due to the level caps being lower in the past and not having a TR mechanic in place.

What would happen is that many people would hang at the level cap (10, 16, whatever) and amass the best gear they could grind out. After months and months, they'd be pretty darn powerful. When the dev team would raise the level cap, the new content had this power level in mind, and so designed the next level accordingly. When it went from 16 to 20, that meant figuring most people were swimming in greensteel.

So when you're leveling up a suboptimal build, you'll first start noticing problems at 11. You probably won't make it past 16.

Kmnh
02-14-2012, 09:46 PM
Depends.

I have a character who can barely hold his own on epics. He can trip a caster and quickly kill the other, then try and clear all the melee trash before the displacement and haste clickies run out.

No other character is as fun to bring to an epic quest. Bringing anything with a blue bar feels like cheating.

DavionFuxa
02-14-2012, 09:50 PM
A good example of the kind of builds I'm talking about are the builds on like this page under Fun Builds:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232
Just okay, but ultimately sub-par. They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?

As many of said, you only stop having fun when you decide your not having fun anymore. But to answer your question on when that may happen may depend on the build you take and what you do with it.

If you decide to party with others for example, you may have difficulty eventually because an unrecognized characters may get dropped from certain quests due to the uncertainty surrounding your build; and then others map just drop you period because they don't know what to make of your build. This can be alleviated a bit though by simply leading the groups however.

If you decide to solo then it really is fully dependent on how far you can go with the build by yourself. If you feel your beginning to hit a wall and you aren't liking the challenge, then that's probably when it is beginning to no longer be fun.

Maelodic
02-15-2012, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Reason why I'm asking is because I play halflings because I like that they seem to move faster and jump higher than anyone else, and being short and small is awesome. Any other race I play I tend to lose interest pretty instantly. My highest is currently a halfling necromancer, which started as a dragonmarked evoker wizard which I miss dearly. I may go dragonmarked enchanter/evoker on my next life and screw what people think. I just was told that it wasn't good although I lead in kill count and oftentimes was the last one living and saved the party on a regular basis. (Although, I am enjoying the instant kills)

So when I TR, I'll have tons of awesome SLAs to use and just do what I do best, be a fricken crazy halfling. Fun is fun. Thanks guis.

C-Dog
01-12-2016, 07:16 PM
(Apologies for necro - I have my reasons. Topic links to current one, and I was wondering, with Epic content now available, how much worse this phenomenon is.)

You'll find prejudice in PUG's start to kick in... oh, maybe at or before Lvl 12, more so if you are aiming for Elite difficulty or a generally acknowledged tough quest/raid. And, depending on your build, often not for any good reason other than "everyone says so". Some "flavour builds" are still adequate, just not optimal - as opposed to "optimized" character builds, which are literally that.

On one hand, some of the higher level quests are indeed very demanding - the designers have to assume the extreme, plan for the min-max characters and then present a challenge to that sort of character. On the other hand, if the Players behind the characters can't run with 4 optimized characters and a couple sub-optimals, then maybe the problem is more with them than with those 5th and 6th character builds.

On the other other hand, after you've seen too many runs come down to the last character, I'm not sure I can blame anyone for wanting to hedge their bets as much as possible. If you race cars, why buy discount seat-belts just because they're handy, when you know factory-tested ones are available if you look a little harder?


In short, the less "flavorful" your build, the less kneejerk you'll find against it. And, yes, all this can be avoided if you solo, or if you run with a regular core group, and you and your buddies are making the decisions about who joins and who doesn't.

FranOhmsford
01-13-2016, 03:11 AM
(Apologies for necro - I have my reasons. Topic links to current one, and I was wondering, with Epic content now available, how much worse this phenomenon is.)

You'll find prejudice in PUG's start to kick in... oh, maybe at or before Lvl 12, more so if you are aiming for Elite difficulty or a generally acknowledged tough quest/raid. And, depending on your build, often not for any good reason other than "everyone says so". Some "flavour builds" are still adequate, just not optimal - as opposed to "optimized" character builds, which are literally that.


Back in 2010/2011 I had a horde of gimped first lifers who I ran mainly well overlevel on - Elite Small Problem on multiple characters at -99%xp for example.

In those days getting to 10 was easy enough then the hard grind and the elitism of vets started to kick in {surprisingly I found that Argo was the only server where this was actually the other way round - 1-10 loads of elitists, 11+ much better! - at the time it had easily the worst harbour chat in the game, a lot less trash talking PvPers now though.}.


TODAY:
Things are very different!

Getting to 10 today is likely to be a solo slog as there's hardly anyone to run with - The vets are all blasting through those quests on E-BB Solo or in small TR Duos, Groups.
Once you hit 12/13 however you start to see the Groups up and the vets no longer care if you're not that good yet - They can still solo most of those quests if they wanted to even with you in Group and your job is simply to keep up.

Yes there's still the occasional Uber Zerger who won't wait for anyone and will be halfway through Grim and Barret because he teled there from GoP before you're even out of the Orchard {before the group leader is even out of GoP! Aaarrgh Loading Screens!}.
But those people are few and far between now!

Once you get into Epics it gets even easier for the newbie because there's no reason whatsoever to worry about EEs - Pause your Bravery Bonus and run ENs - There's easily triple the number of EN Groups as EE Groups {still more EE than EH but that's another problem}.

In Legendary Raids it seems that people have settled on EH for now but with full 12 man Groups again once you've got there those shouldn't be a problem - Just don't expect to compete if you're Lvl 25 on your first life with no ERs and in an off destiny.

moomooprincess
01-13-2016, 08:40 AM
A good example of the kind of builds I'm talking about are the builds on like this page under Fun Builds:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232
Just okay, but ultimately sub-par. They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?

Since you must be talking about all of my characters, they last around 8 years.:D

edit: wow, going on nine years. Time sure flies. I remember when my kids were little.

FuzzyDuck81
01-13-2016, 10:08 AM
It depends a lot on what you want to do with them - if you want to solo EE, then a "just ok" build probably won't be sufficient, but if you're running mainly on normal & hard, sometimes elites with a group, then you can usually do fine thanks to the teamwork thing, even if it isn't done quite as quicky.

Knowledge with a degree of personal skill is the most important thing IMO, eg. knowing how the quest works ("enemies will appear here!"), how to use tactical approaches ("so the rogue should drop a trap down"/"the wizard should cast some CC"/"we should back up to a door & let a tanky type block it while we shoot from safely behind!"), how to work together ("ok, the bard's fascinated all of them, kill them 1 at a time so the others don't wake up & overwhelm us!") & occasionally, how to turn & run like rabbits ("brave brave brave brave sir robin ran away!) to regroup - in this case, the trick is to run away back the way you came to where the enemies have already been cleared out (maybe into a bottleneck so you can make them come at you in manageable numbers), instead of running away into unexplored areas where more are waiting.

Also, know & understand your build - the best build on the forums won't necessarily help you if you don't understand it properly - this is a large part of why i pretty much always make them myself (even if they end up basically being the same) they may not be the "best" but they're mine which i put together myself, figured out the enhancements, selected the gear & as such I know the ins & outs of what I can & can't do with them

Personally, I'd advise everyone to play a non-optimal build from time to time, in order to learn all the little tricks & ways to think your way past problems, since you'll end up a far more skillful player overall than if you just go with the easy button approach such as the mass blasting-enlightened spirit-shiradi type (not knocking the class here, love it, but it *can* be an easy button at times, which fair enough is sometimes what you'll want) & then running hard into the wall when something unexpected shows up that you can't solve by brute force.

Oh, and even without the strongest build personally, you can still be perfectly useful in a team - very low damage output? use a weapon with stat/level drain instead to weaken/immobilise enemies, or a shattermantle weapon to reduce spell resistance to make life easier for your casters! Or get a tendon slice or crippling effect on a ranged character to slow things down for your melees to catch them, or at least manage a group of enemies to make sure they don't hit your party all at once!

Jiirix
01-13-2016, 10:26 AM
Okay builds last forever as long as you stay away from the hardest contend at a given point and only run things up to the second hardest in my experience.

Gremmlynn
01-13-2016, 03:37 PM
A good example of the kind of builds I'm talking about are the builds on like this page under Fun Builds:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232
Just okay, but ultimately sub-par. They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?They last for as long as the player doesn't try to make them seem like they are anything else. The game has multiple difficulties for all quest and raid content, while wilderness areas are all set to the relatively low Normal setting. So one is never pushed to play anything beyond the ability of whatever build they prefer. That isn't to say nothing exists that may be beyond that, just that playing those difficulties or in that way is in no way necessary.

kemetka
01-13-2016, 10:22 PM
How long do they last? as longa s you want them to, or level 20 whichever is most applicable

Kompera_Oberon
01-14-2016, 05:22 AM
They last for as long as the player doesn't try to make them seem like they are anything else. The game has multiple difficulties for all quest and raid content, while wilderness areas are all set to the relatively low Normal setting. So one is never pushed to play anything beyond the ability of whatever build they prefer. That isn't to say nothing exists that may be beyond that, just that playing those difficulties or in that way is in no way necessary.

That said, Epic Orchard and Thunderholm can be very challenging for some builds. Bring your 'A' game and your 'A' build if you don't want to be schooled.

kemetka
01-14-2016, 08:48 AM
That said, Epic Orchard and Thunderholm can be very challenging for some builds. Bring your 'A' game and your 'A' build if you don't want to be schooled.

Or just play cautiously and like you have some common sense?

Kompera_Oberon
01-14-2016, 09:05 AM
Or just play cautiously and like you have some common sense?
I'm not sure how that is any different than what I said. :)

KoobTheProud
01-14-2016, 11:56 AM
Okay builds last forever as long as you stay away from the hardest contend at a given point and only run things up to the second hardest in my experience.

This is pretty much the situation. If you want to run on Normal, Epic Normal you can run with whatever you want too unless you've built it to be just plain bad. A little self-healing, DPS and survivability and you can run anything.

Gremmlynn
01-14-2016, 08:19 PM
That said, Epic Orchard and Thunderholm can be very challenging for some builds. Bring your 'A' game and your 'A' build if you don't want to be schooled.On normal? My builds and game must be something stratospheric then as I find epic orchard on hard even to be little more than a run to the end.

Kompera_Oberon
01-16-2016, 04:29 AM
On normal? My builds and game must be something stratospheric then as I find epic orchard on hard even to be little more than a run to the end.

Oh hard? I'm talking about the wilderness areas, which have no setting. You can quickly find yourself in green/yellow/red alert in Epic Orchard, especially if you need room to kite. And the mobs are in clusters larger than most found in the dungeons hung off of the wilderness area.

And to be clear, when I'm talking about "just ok builds" I'm talking about first life players. You can have a lousy build but still do fine if you have the past H&E lives which bring your character's capabilities up a very large notch.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-16-2016, 10:53 AM
Or just play cautiously and like you have some common sense?

:)

Talon_Moonshadow
01-16-2016, 11:00 AM
Well... old thread.

Technically, one would say I have rebuilt my main significantly...

But in most people's opinion, he would not be considered a great build.... yet still going.

Knowing the quest is the most powerful thing in DDO.

Learning how to not get too much agro is very powerful.

Then comes gear IMO.

...although one could argue build. And I have seen some amazing DPS from certain builds... far higher than I imagined was possible.


So... if you expect to run though content, blasting tings out of existence without care....having fun with the zerger DPS rules club...
yeah... you need a good build (to have fun).


But just slow your butt down... and you can play whatever you want to. (in any content)
(you do need to know how to play your build though...)

bonscott87
01-16-2016, 11:45 AM
My favorite character I ever played was a couple years ago. Was a stick 13 Rogue/7 Fighter. Half-Orc. Only used Quarterstaffs. And this was before any of the recent enhancement passes. Sub-optimal for sure. BUT, man this guy rocked the DPS. Ran some high level heroics on Elite with guildies and the guild leader told me he was amazed at how effective he was. Could do any trap of course. Wicked DPS with sneak attack and Bluff. And I could use Heal and Raise Dead scrolls no problem. But bottom line is I had a ton of fun playing that guy and he held his own.

Would he be effective in Epic Hard or Epic Elite these days? Maybe. I plan to TR my current toon into another similar stick build to see how the new enhancements effect things. Especially with Harper tree now, I can see a great INT build here.

In the end though, have fun. You don't need "zomogod super DC caster DPS blaster" guy to have fun. Nothing wrong with having that, but not needed.

FranOhmsford
01-16-2016, 12:17 PM
OP - If you're still around the answer really depends on what you personally consider to be "just ok".

It's amazing to me that so many people judging from this thread don't understand the simple fact that it depends utterly on who's playing the Build!

There's DDO Players who have purposefully made complete Gimp Builds and played 90%+ of the content in the game on the highest difficulty with them!

Pretty much every newbie will start out with a Build that's not even close to Top Tier {Even if they try to cheat the learning process and grab a forum build they'll end up using different gear, taking different enhancements etc. as they learn the game.}.

Lorianus
01-18-2016, 03:23 AM
It's amazing to me that so many people judging from this thread don't understand the simple fact that it depends utterly on who's playing the Build!


Or people take it as a given and don't mention it therefore? And there are more and less playstyle dependent builds anyway. A mechanic rogue shoots mobs in the back, a barbarian ravager hits mobs repeatedly and a radiant servant heals his folks.

Apart from epic elite endgame or soloing elite dungeons DDO is rather easy to play and don’t requires much “skill”. Just pick a class and play on. A Bow-Cleric, a Bear-Druid and a Caster-Artificer are all “sub-optimal” builds but they can team up and do all the quests, some on elite, most on hard and only a few had to be played on normal.

RistoffDervish
01-20-2016, 07:54 AM
They last as long as you have good gear to support them.

Algreg
01-21-2016, 09:09 AM
OP - If you're still around the answer really depends on what you personally consider to be "just ok".

It's amazing to me that so many people judging from this thread don't understand the simple fact that it depends utterly on who's playing the Build!

There's DDO Players who have purposefully made complete Gimp Builds and played 90%+ of the content in the game on the highest difficulty with them!

Pretty much every newbie will start out with a Build that's not even close to Top Tier {Even if they try to cheat the learning process and grab a forum build they'll end up using different gear, taking different enhancements etc. as they learn the game.}.

It is amazing to me how you do not understand that people are willing to give a good advice and hence consider being "just ok" having a character that is within the reach of a new player and can perform in the best way possible. Of cause, we can all assume a very mediocre level of OKness and give mediocre advice. If you consider that your forté, feel free to do. But please attach a warning about the mediocrity of your advice, a newbie would not know one from the other.

iceblader50
01-24-2016, 04:19 PM
A good example of the kind of builds I'm talking about are the builds on like this page under Fun Builds:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=117232
Just okay, but ultimately sub-par. They obviously don't do well at cap, so when does their novelty fun and semi-okay-ness wear off?

It depends on when turbine decides to alter one of the major features of the build. It will do mostly just the same till they alter something or other. If nothing changes, they'll be the same ol same ol. but if they change say... how much damage a mob does, that might prove to be a pain in the arse due a possible lack of upgrading PRR and such because the old stuff worked "well enough" then you'd have to change the build again, stuff like this happens every 6 months to a year usually, so.