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View Full Version : Give melee stamina to balance with casters ;)



Hikup
02-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Why is it that melee can run around chugging cure/sf pots and not have to worry about anything except their gear breaking? Sure I could buy ddo store pots or mnems from the ah for a ton of plat, but there's no comparison.

One has an unlimited damage potential, one is seriously throttled. Lets either get rid of blue bars; or give melee a stamina bar. Every swing or special attack will reduce stamina. The only way to regen stamina is a shrine, rare item(s) or store pot.
Holding a shield also seems OP and should cause stamina to decrease at about the speed of hp when wearing 2 uncleansed gs items.



Start with some arbitrary stamina number, multiply it by some other arbitrary number and voila you have base stamina. Lets say it's 1400
auto-attack type swing - 8 stamina
trip - 15stam
sb - 20stam
anything else -40 stam (why not)

Impaqt
02-14-2012, 05:20 PM
full.of.win.

RabidKoala
02-14-2012, 05:23 PM
even that sounds OP. melees can just hold down one button and attack while casters have to click on each individual spell. change it so melees have to click each individual attack.

BladeTricks
02-14-2012, 05:30 PM
Don't forget the 'Echoes of War' to slowly regain up to 40 stamina so they can still swing every once in a while...

I approve!

Bacab
02-14-2012, 05:33 PM
also I want panda bears and to be paid in gum

Hikup
02-14-2012, 05:35 PM
Echos of war should only go to 14 stam, just enough for a few swings but nothing great.

Hoglum
02-14-2012, 05:40 PM
Yeah, but what about the Melee-Like abilities? They can trip all day without consequences. Stun, sunder etc.

It's the MLA's that make them OP, not just swinging away for unlimited damage.

Hikup
02-14-2012, 05:43 PM
Yeah, but what about the Melee-Like abilities? They can trip all day without consequences. Stun, sunder etc.

It's the MLA's that make them OP, not just swinging away for unlimited damage.

Those special attacks would have a stamina requirement, from 15-40 stam. Some could be tied into existing PREs for example, kensai can reduce your total stam by x but you can use a trip for reduced cost

brightfang
02-14-2012, 05:45 PM
I like the stamina idea. How about this? A basic attack acts like an SLA in not costing much stamina. Manyshot could become a stance for archery that drains stamina over time but allows you to shoot multiple arrows at once. Power attack becomes like Maximize spell. Precision eliminates the stamina cost. Stamina is incresed by Strength for Fighters, Dex for rogues and rangers, and finally Con for Barbarians, following each melee class' ability enhancements. Stamina has a much lower cap then SP but regenerates as long as you are not using it at a rate determined by your levels in those classes. Stamina shows up as a green bar.

Hikup
02-14-2012, 05:48 PM
I like the stamina idea. How about this? A basic attack acts like an SLA in not costing much stamina. Manyshot could become a stance for archery that drains stamina over time but allows you to shoot multiple arrows at once. Power attack becomes like Maximize spell. Precision eliminates the stamina cost. Stamina is incresed by Strength for Fighters, Dex for rogues and rangers, and finally Con for Barbarians, following each melee class' ability enhancements. Stamina has a much lower cap then SP but regenerates as long as you are not using it at a rate determined by your levels in those classes. Stamina shows up as a green bar.

I avoided tying str, dex or con to stam mearly because I don't want to discriminate against people with unconventional builds.

brightfang
02-14-2012, 06:01 PM
I avoided tying str, dex or con to stam mearly because I don't want to discriminate against people with unconventional builds.

I see. In that case, it could either be small amounts like caster SP or not be based on stats at all. It could probably also give stamina powers that act like spells except a bit weaker relating to basic attacks and large stamina pools. Stamina powers may vary for every class and the spells Ranger/Paladin use mean they have a slightly lower amount of maximum stamina than other melees. Stamina powers include "Quick Blows" at level 1 and "Cleaving Vorpal" at level 18, the counterparts of Magic missle and Wail of the Banshee, respectively. Ranged attacks work the same way, except are limited to single target attacks due to long range and lower stamina cost.

Sidewaysgts86
02-14-2012, 10:39 PM
/signed.

But I also want new feats. Feats like "Empower-Damage" and "Maximize-Damage". Well call these metaphysical feats. These feats will allow us to do 50% and 100% more damage (stackable, of course- and in the way that benefits us the most. Ie having both on wont be 150% more damage, itll be base times 100% times 50%) respectably, at the cost of using more stamina. The stamina-cost might be questionable at low-levels, but the cost should be low enough, that due to the increased stamina cost of high-level abilities itd be pretty pointless to turn them off anyways. I mean when an ability costs 60 stamina to use, but you can add 100% to its damage for only 25 more stamina- Itd be silly NOT to have it on in almost all sitautions on mobs you dont one shot, right?

While were on the subject of augmenting out damage out put with feats, we need a plethora of new clickies. For example "Superior make-me-kick-more-ass". This clicky should last for 3 minutes (and items with this clicky should have 3 of them, and be easy to obtain/craft) and allow us to do an additional 75% damage per hit. This additional damage would of course, stack in the most obscene ways possible with our metaphysical feats. So if my barbarian who averages well just say 100 damage per swing, has taken empower damage and maximize damage, THEN activates superior make-me-kick-more-ass, his damage would be 100x2x1.5x1.75

Speaking of stamina-abilities, well need a cluster-ef of new abilities to use all this new stamina. Theyll of course start of small, just some extra damage here and there, have relatively small stamina costs, but well get some big bad-ass ones later. For example we should get one called "Kill target". Itll cost lets just say about 30 stamina and let us instantly-kill something. None of those restrictions either like we have on vorpal, No 100 damage for things over 1000 hp here. 500 hp or 10,000 hp- Doesnt matter. It just kills the living **** out of whatever it is. Of course therell be some kind of DC to avoid this kill-target effect (Which if it saves, itll instead take a boat-load of damage, which of course is augmented by empower-damage, maximize-damage, and our superior make-me-kick-more-ass effects), but this really shouldnt matter because were going to for sure have a number of ways to get this DC up so high that its nearly fail-proof anyways.

We also need somre more "diverse" abilities as well. We cant just keep using kill-target, now can we? How about something more creative like "Kill everything". Your warrior will spin in place attacking EVERYTHING for a reasonable duration within a 360 degree arc of himself- Anything he hits, dies instantly. Same effects apply as we had for kill-target, of course.

We cant forget survivability either! I mean whats the point of being a glass-cannon if we cant heal ourselves and keep our hp easily topped off? We need stamina-abilities like "mend minor boo-boos" right on up to "mend critical ouchies" to ensure we keep our red-bars full all the time.

Well need items too. Items like "Awesome helmet of Endurance X". Endurance adds 10 stamina to our stamina pool per tier (Ie endurance x adds 100 stamina)- Barbarians will get double the stamina bonus. And maybe something like a "Nifty ring of superior MOAR damage". This will be like our make-me-kick-more-ass clicky, but in effect all the time when equipped. For balancing issues itll only be about 30% additional damage, and i suppose it shouldnt stack with the clicky.

The other thing is we really need to balance this use of stamina quite carefully. I mean when youre -this- uber, it makes sense that the balance for our uberness is a reservation/limitation of how often we can unleash this uber on everything, right? I mean why would you use a woofle-bat to beat on things when youve got an RPG with unlimited ammo, amiryte? To address this well need something like a "Necklace of the restless". This necklace will convert the momentum physical attacks into raw stamina for our warriors to use and fuels our lust for battle! Itll be such a such a low proc rate and give us so little stamina (just enough to mend more hp than we lost, and still gain a net-overall amount of stamina so we can kick off a few more attacks), that well basically be able to keep our stamina bars at full the entire time- And make the concept of a "limited" stamina bar utterly redundant. It might be difficult to get, but basically every well-geared warrior will be expected to have one.

Ungood
02-14-2012, 10:42 PM
We also need to revise the Melee's die rolls, from their OPed d6 being 1 - 6 and making a D6 be equal to d3+3 to balance out the stamina bar and equalize the hit numbers.

and revise all the other dice rolls for that matter, a d4 needs to be d2+2, a d8 needs to become d4+4, and so forth.

Syllph
02-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Yeah! and fighters can swap weapons freely at any shrine but Barbarians can only swap weapons once every three days unless you get Blood of the Ogre which allows for free weapon swapping (while in town near a trainer) for one hour.

Delssar
02-15-2012, 12:14 AM
/signed IF

mana pots are removed, DOTs are removed, Vorpal is fixed, Instant kill spells no longer work in epics and theres a set cap of 400hp on arcanes , 500hp on divines.

oradafu
02-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Don't forget to add the Xachosian Boweldweller to the game.

"A tapeworm that crawls into a host's rear, dramatically increasing their hosts physical abilities. Terrible rumors abound about what happens when the eggs hatch."

The Boweldweller will provide the following enhancements:
* Demonic STR +3 - fluids from parasite cause unnatural strength
* +3 to hit/damage - fluids from parasite cause unnatural accuracy in targetting and damaging opponents
* 10% Melee Alacrity - burning sensation in bowels causes quicker attacks
* +5 stackable Reflex - burning sensation in bowels causes uncanny quick reaction to danger
* -15 Concentration - burning sensation in bowels causes lack of concentration
* -5% Fortifcation - burning sensation in bowels causes a drop in defense of one's rear

Additionally, there's a Xachosian Attack Frenzy three times a day for one minute.

"Spurred into action, the Xachosian Boweldweller increases its hosts physical attack abilities. This grants a 100% Psionic bonus to all Damage and Tactical DCs for one minute. This effect stacks with other (non-Psionic) physical boosting items or potions. When this effect ends, the host is exhausted."

As for what the Boweldweller eggs do, no one has been brave enough to eat them...not even the dumbest of barbarians.

CheeseMilk
02-15-2012, 01:03 AM
I enjoy this thread immensely.

Ravoc-DDO
02-15-2012, 02:51 AM
Running should also be disabled for all casters. They can only walk and don't benefit from gear/buffs that affect movement speed (striding, haste, exp retreat, ...). Jumping & Tumbling should also occur at a 50% slower rate. They don't have the stamina for any of that after all...

Talias006
02-15-2012, 03:26 AM
Running should also be disabled for all casters. They can only walk and don't benefit from gear/buffs that affect movement speed (striding, haste, exp retreat, ...). Jumping & Tumbling should also occur at a 50% slower rate. They don't have the stamina for any of that after all...

This makes sense.

Although, you'd have to implement a minor stamina bump to the mid range 2 per 3 BAB classes, and a minimal increase for those pesky 1 per 3 BAB classes that use primarily their blue bar.

arjiwan
02-15-2012, 03:59 AM
LFMs:

Weapon Shipment:
Elite! Don't join if you need Mysterious Barbel. (1 charge of restoring Stamina)

Epic ADQ:
At the queen, pass me the Ring of Stamina Storing Shard! (3 charges of restoring Stamina)

Antheal
02-15-2012, 04:37 AM
[Reading: You roll a 1 on Detect Sarcasm.]

I'll /sign this idea!

Lewendriel
02-15-2012, 04:46 AM
/Signed

dng242
02-15-2012, 05:58 AM
Why is it that melee can run around chugging cure/sf pots and not have to worry about anything except their gear breaking? Sure I could buy ddo store pots or mnems from the ah for a ton of plat, but there's no comparison.

One has an unlimited damage potential, one is seriously throttled. Lets either get rid of blue bars; or give melee a stamina bar. Every swing or special attack will reduce stamina. The only way to regen stamina is a shrine, rare item(s) or store pot.
Holding a shield also seems OP and should cause stamina to decrease at about the speed of hp when wearing 2 uncleansed gs items.



Start with some arbitrary stamina number, multiply it by some other arbitrary number and voila you have base stamina. Lets say it's 1400
auto-attack type swing - 8 stamina
trip - 15stam
sb - 20stam
anything else -40 stam (why not)

Great idea. Of course to balance a little more, insta-death spells and high DC holds etc would need to go, but no one would have a problem with that.

Zerkul
02-15-2012, 06:29 AM
/not Signed

Melees are already underpowered VS casters. This would be another selling point for casters.

Furthermore, D&D already has a thing that determines "stamina" and that this is Constitution Score. Usually a standard character, without any particular kind of training or feats, can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution Score (not modifier the actual score!) assuming he doesn't take standard actions or full-round ones: 18 constitution score character can hold his breath about 18*6seconds (round duration), that's to say 108 seconds or 1,8 minutes. I cannot imagine the direct relation to the fighting-breath or stamina, but i would assume that, 18 constitution characters (that are very very very though individuals compared to standard untrained human which has usually 10-11 con) could fight for very very long times! If you compare with boxing champions means they can hold several round of 3min each for very long fights.

hit_fido
02-15-2012, 06:46 AM
Lets either get rid of blue bars; or give melee a stamina bar. Every swing or special attack will reduce stamina.

Hahah, excellent. I'll tell you what - we'll get rid of caster blue bars and to balance that out we'll get rid of melee red bars. Finally. Genuine "unlimited DPS" for all!

Stamina bar is not a bad idea either, just make all melee weapons have an attack range of somewhere around 8 times the distance that mobs can hit back. Oh, and make sure cleave can hit every mob in the room.



/signed.

Lots of very wise design ideas there to make the most balanced approach to stamina bar possible, thanks. You forgot "Echoes of Ass Kicking" which ensures that there is always at least enough stamina available to swing your weapon or to cast "mend minor boo-boos" every few seconds.

We can also synergize with new class enhancements. We'll give barbarians a line called "Raging Vitality" which will immediately restore 3d4+10 stamina to an ally at the first tier up to 7d4+10 at the third tier - they'll be able to do this (3 + their constitution modifier) times per day. Warchanters will have a new song that reduces stamina usage by 10%. And so on.

I sense a whole new world coming for melee.... mmmmmmm, Major Stamnomic Tasty Hams!

Krago
02-15-2012, 08:34 AM
I want my Endurance X item to add to my stamina bar.

Hikup
02-15-2012, 12:11 PM
Great idea. Of course to balance a little more, insta-death spells and high DC holds etc would need to go, but no one would have a problem with that.

Why? vorpal has no save, and trip/sunder/sb are all so easy to get dc's past 44, any capped toon can do it no problem.

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 12:29 PM
This thread is full of win, especially for the few people who failed their sarcasm save.

Cableman
02-15-2012, 12:40 PM
/signed with the following condition:

All spells only do 1d6 damage + attribute modifier (int, wis, cha dependant on class)

Syllph
02-15-2012, 12:41 PM
This thread is full of win, especially for the few people who failed their sarcasm save.

heh, amazes me each time I see this type of thread, the people who jump in and argue as if it were serious. :)

Varashad
02-15-2012, 12:48 PM
/signed.

But I also want new feats. Feats like "Empower-Damage" and "Maximize-Damage". Well call these metaphysical feats. These feats will allow us to do 50% and 100% more damage (stackable, of course- and in the way that benefits us the most. Ie having both on wont be 150% more damage, itll be base times 100% times 50%) respectably, at the cost of using more stamina. The stamina-cost might be questionable at low-levels, but the cost should be low enough, that due to the increased stamina cost of high-level abilities itd be pretty pointless to turn them off anyways. I mean when an ability costs 60 stamina to use, but you can add 100% to its damage for only 25 more stamina- Itd be silly NOT to have it on in almost all sitautions on mobs you dont one shot, right?

While were on the subject of augmenting out damage out put with feats, we need a plethora of new clickies. For example "Superior make-me-kick-more-ass". This clicky should last for 3 minutes (and items with this clicky should have 3 of them, and be easy to obtain/craft) and allow us to do an additional 75% damage per hit. This additional damage would of course, stack in the most obscene ways possible with our metaphysical feats. So if my barbarian who averages well just say 100 damage per swing, has taken empower damage and maximize damage, THEN activates superior make-me-kick-more-ass, his damage would be 100x2x1.5x1.75

Speaking of stamina-abilities, well need a cluster-ef of new abilities to use all this new stamina. Theyll of course start of small, just some extra damage here and there, have relatively small stamina costs, but well get some big bad-ass ones later. For example we should get one called "Kill target". Itll cost lets just say about 30 stamina and let us instantly-kill something. None of those restrictions either like we have on vorpal, No 100 damage for things over 1000 hp here. 500 hp or 10,000 hp- Doesnt matter. It just kills the living **** out of whatever it is. Of course therell be some kind of DC to avoid this kill-target effect (Which if it saves, itll instead take a boat-load of damage, which of course is augmented by empower-damage, maximize-damage, and our superior make-me-kick-more-ass effects), but this really shouldnt matter because were going to for sure have a number of ways to get this DC up so high that its nearly fail-proof anyways.

We also need somre more "diverse" abilities as well. We cant just keep using kill-target, now can we? How about something more creative like "Kill everything". Your warrior will spin in place attacking EVERYTHING for a reasonable duration within a 360 degree arc of himself- Anything he hits, dies instantly. Same effects apply as we had for kill-target, of course.

We cant forget survivability either! I mean whats the point of being a glass-cannon if we cant heal ourselves and keep our hp easily topped off? We need stamina-abilities like "mend minor boo-boos" right on up to "mend critical ouchies" to ensure we keep our red-bars full all the time.

Well need items too. Items like "Awesome helmet of Endurance X". Endurance adds 10 stamina to our stamina pool per tier (Ie endurance x adds 100 stamina)- Barbarians will get double the stamina bonus. And maybe something like a "Nifty ring of superior MOAR damage". This will be like our make-me-kick-more-ass clicky, but in effect all the time when equipped. For balancing issues itll only be about 30% additional damage, and i suppose it shouldnt stack with the clicky.

The other thing is we really need to balance this use of stamina quite carefully. I mean when youre -this- uber, it makes sense that the balance for our uberness is a reservation/limitation of how often we can unleash this uber on everything, right? I mean why would you use a woofle-bat to beat on things when youve got an RPG with unlimited ammo, amiryte? To address this well need something like a "Necklace of the restless". This necklace will convert the momentum physical attacks into raw stamina for our warriors to use and fuels our lust for battle! Itll be such a such a low proc rate and give us so little stamina (just enough to mend more hp than we lost, and still gain a net-overall amount of stamina so we can kick off a few more attacks), that well basically be able to keep our stamina bars at full the entire time- And make the concept of a "limited" stamina bar utterly redundant. It might be difficult to get, but basically every well-geared warrior will be expected to have one.

+1 for pure amusement value.

DrNuegebauer
02-15-2012, 01:06 PM
You'd have to also code in mnstamina pots. Lesser, Great, Major etc.

Also parchments. These could replicate stamina attacks without actually using stamina.

I'd have some reservation though - because melee's would still be OP with stamina pots and parchments and various kinds of healing pots?

Hikup
02-15-2012, 01:21 PM
You'd have to also code in mnstamina pots. Lesser, Great, Major etc.

Also parchments. These could replicate stamina attacks without actually using stamina.

I'd have some reservation though - because melee's would still be OP with stamina pots and parchments and various kinds of healing pots?

Probably still OP, but in a more balanced way :D

Uska
02-15-2012, 01:23 PM
No thanks

Darkrok
02-15-2012, 01:24 PM
I realize the thread was started tongue-in-cheek but granting different melee classes (and PrE's) extra attacks/tactics that used 'stamina' could be just the thing that melee's need to bring them up in line with casters while making the game more fun for those characters. I say 'stamina' because I'd just add the ki bar to non-monks and have monks share the ki between both non-monk and monk attacks but you could add a new bar if you wanted as well.

Some thoughts would be giving all melee a granted feat version of supreme cleave that took a large amount of stamina to use. This would be separate from all other feats selected and would be a way to give all melee's a bit of aoe damage. You could allow melee's to drain their stamina for regen purposes (addressing some of the self-sufficiency concerns). You could add stacking double-strike as a 'stance' that drained stamina while active. Once you implement this 'stamina' bar you've got many more levers and dials you can mess with to tweak melee's in general and specific PrE's in particular to improve (or dial back) their performance.

As for the original point of this thread...yeah, please stop with all the ZOMG ARCANES ARE RUINING THE GAME PLZ TO NERF threads. The posters of those threads have long since become tiresome.

RabidKoala
02-15-2012, 03:46 PM
/not Signed

Melees are already underpowered VS casters. This would be another selling point for casters.

Furthermore, D&D already has a thing that determines "stamina" and that this is Constitution Score. Usually a standard character, without any particular kind of training or feats, can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution Score (not modifier the actual score!) assuming he doesn't take standard actions or full-round ones: 18 constitution score character can hold his breath about 18*6seconds (round duration), that's to say 108 seconds or 1,8 minutes. I cannot imagine the direct relation to the fighting-breath or stamina, but i would assume that, 18 constitution characters (that are very very very though individuals compared to standard untrained human which has usually 10-11 con) could fight for very very long times! If you compare with boxing champions means they can hold several round of 3min each for very long fights.

Sarcasm check "Failure you rolled a 1"

~Quilny
02-15-2012, 05:19 PM
Why is it that melee can run around chugging cure/sf pots and not have to worry about anything except their gear breaking? Sure I could buy ddo store pots or mnems from the ah for a ton of plat, but there's no comparison.

One has an unlimited damage potential, one is seriously throttled. Lets either get rid of blue bars; or give melee a stamina bar. Every swing or special attack will reduce stamina. The only way to regen stamina is a shrine, rare item(s) or store pot.
Holding a shield also seems OP and should cause stamina to decrease at about the speed of hp when wearing 2 uncleansed gs items.



Start with some arbitrary stamina number, multiply it by some other arbitrary number and voila you have base stamina. Lets say it's 1400
auto-attack type swing - 8 stamina
trip - 15stam
sb - 20stam
anything else -40 stam (why not)

Makes sense sounds solid but... Yes yes I said it BUT ...do we really want to give melees somethign ELSE to Cry about?? I mean I don't have enough Cheese to give them.

Talias006
02-15-2012, 05:22 PM
Why? vorpal has no save

It (vorpal) also has extremely limited usage.

How many mobs have close to 1k hp upwards of level 12?

12th level being the lowest average I've seen vorpals drop for.

(I made my /sarcasm check, just like responding :D )

Talias006
02-15-2012, 05:24 PM
I mean I don't have enough Cheese to give them.

Nope, there's already too much cheese in the non-melee classes, no need to spread it around.

Unless it's turned into grilled cheese sammiches! :rolleyes: