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elraido
02-14-2012, 11:45 AM
Why are there only 3 +4 dodge items in the game?
Icy Remnants
Tier III Epic Duelest Leathers
Epic Staff of Nat Gamm

For two out of the three items, you need a high dex build to even consider using (Icy and the Leathers) and the third prevents any S&B from using it.

While I don't mind a level 18+ on any dodge +4 items, please make some items to where other than high dex builds can use them

Rhysem
02-14-2012, 12:25 PM
They don't exist because if they did AC would be broken (uber) again, as opposed to broken (useless) in high-end content.

The D&D d20 mechanic in all its forms is great if you're playing with a living breathing GM and terrible when translated to a computer.

If quests dynamically tailored (within reason!) the AC and to-hit and other d20 mechanics based on the party that entered, then AC could matter again. Also, you could remove the casual...elite slider and just let the quest adapt to its players. Coding something like that isn't super trivial though and its a hole the size of a 747 to exploit it if you screw it up.

Thebeest
02-14-2012, 12:32 PM
For two out of the three items, you need a high dex build to even consider using (Icy and the Leathers) and the third prevents any S&B from using it.


Also, the only thing a warforged "could" use is the staff. i don't see many doing that either. would like a docent option as a warforged toon.

more options in general would be nice.

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 12:36 PM
That ring from VOD should have been 4 dodge instead of 4 insight. Would have been a good place for it.

Aliss7
02-14-2012, 12:42 PM
+4 Dodge can come from a bard, a reason why sources of +4 dodge may be limited.

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 12:50 PM
+4 Dodge can come from a bard, a reason why sources of +4 dodge may be limited.

The bard buff stacks with gear.

Aliss7
02-14-2012, 01:05 PM
The bard buff stacks with gear.

Cool. I didn't know that.

elraido
02-14-2012, 01:54 PM
They don't exist because if they did AC would be broken (uber) again, as opposed to broken (useless) in high-end content.

The D&D d20 mechanic in all its forms is great if you're playing with a living breathing GM and terrible when translated to a computer.

If quests dynamically tailored (within reason!) the AC and to-hit and other d20 mechanics based on the party that entered, then AC could matter again. Also, you could remove the casual...elite slider and just let the quest adapt to its players. Coding something like that isn't super trivial though and its a hole the size of a 747 to exploit it if you screw it up.

So, a pajama wearing person should be the only type of person who can benifit from a +4 dodge item? They already can do more dps and hit a higher ac than a full plate wearing shield user...the shield user can just midigate damage a little more. Why not let them hit the same AC as those pajama users?

TheDearLeader
02-14-2012, 01:59 PM
Monks would argue that there are only two types of Epic Handwraps currently in game, so Dodge +4 Items currently trump them. :)

But I don't play a monk. Or an AC toon. So enjoy the free bump!

elraido
02-14-2012, 02:00 PM
That ring from VOD should have been 4 dodge instead of 4 insight. Would have been a good place for it.

I agree and disagree. :) DoS paladins like to have their ToD set for the extra +2 ac and threat. That leaves them the other ring spot. While +4 dodge is greater than the +6 nat armor bonus from epic seal of the earth (if they had a cove hat or ranger with), or the +6 protection from epic concord ring....it is just too many items for the rings slots.

I say, they should allow "anchoring" to be placed in an epic slot. Have a set of boots that make the user more fleet of foot and provide a +4 dodge bonus and 20% striding. Problem solved. :D

Calebro
02-14-2012, 02:05 PM
So, a pajama wearing person should be the only type of person who can benifit from a +4 dodge item? They already can do more dps and hit a higher ac than a full plate wearing shield user...the shield user can just midigate damage a little more. Why not let them hit the same AC as those pajama users?

Because it causes you to choose a style.
If you go S&B you can get a high AC and have mitigation. When the AC isn't *quite* high enough, you still have that mitigation.
If you choose pajamas you can have a higher potential AC. When that AC isn't enough you may as well be naked.
Choose.
If you could get just as high an AC with S&B then there would be no choice. S&B would effectively be the only tank build available because it would be far superior to the alternative.

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 02:07 PM
I agree and disagree. :) DoS paladins like to have their ToD set for the extra +2 ac and threat. That leaves them the other ring spot. While +4 dodge is greater than the +6 nat armor bonus from epic seal of the earth (if they had a cove hat or ranger with), or the +6 protection from epic concord ring....it is just too many items for the rings slots.

I say, they should allow "anchoring" to be placed in an epic slot. Have a set of boots that make the user more fleet of foot and provide a +4 dodge bonus and 20% striding. Problem solved. :D

Yes . . . but the Pjama pally (in my case) wears a second ring with more DEX on it for more AC. An armor pally couldn't do that as they'd get pinned on the max-dex bonus. PJs has no max-DEX bonus.

Kromize
02-14-2012, 02:09 PM
I see your question on why there aren't more +4 dodge items, and raise you a question about why dodge bonuses even stack with each other! That in itself contributes to the broken ac system. :)

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 02:12 PM
I see your question on why there aren't more +4 dodge items, and raise you a question about why dodge bonuses even stack with each other! That in itself contributes to the broken ac system. :)

Black-letter D&D 3.5 rules. This can't be blamed on Turbine :)

rimble
02-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Black-letter D&D 3.5 rules. This can't be blamed on Turbine :)

Well, black-letter D&D 3.5 rules...Dodge bonuses don't come from spells or items--though I'm sure some splat books splatted all over that at some point. Regardless, I think we can toss out the PnP defense here.

I'd be all for a 'highest applies (from items)' rule here, it just makes sense. Of course, this would have to be in conjunction with a general AC usefulness tweak all around.


Dodge Bonus

A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.

Feralthyrtiaq
02-14-2012, 02:27 PM
They don't exist because if they did AC would be broken (uber) again, as opposed to broken (useless) in high-end content.

The D&D d20 mechanic in all its forms is great if you're playing with a living breathing GM and terrible when translated to a computer.

If quests dynamically tailored (within reason!) the AC and to-hit and other d20 mechanics based on the party that entered, then AC could matter again. Also, you could remove the casual...elite slider and just let the quest adapt to its players. Coding something like that isn't super trivial though and its a hole the size of a 747 to exploit it if you screw it up.

+1 I like it...

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 02:29 PM
Well, black-letter D&D 3.5 rules...Dodge bonuses don't come from spells or items--though I'm sure some splat books splatted all over that at some point. Regardless, I think we can toss out the PnP defense here.

I'd be all for a 'highest applies (from items)' rule here, it just makes sense. Of course, this would have to be in conjunction with a general AC usefulness tweak all around.

interesting . . . was it ever explained why dodge bonuses stack in DDO?

elraido
02-14-2012, 03:06 PM
Because it causes you to choose a style.
If you go S&B you can get a high AC and have mitigation. When the AC isn't *quite* high enough, you still have that mitigation.
If you choose pajamas you can have a higher potential AC. When that AC isn't enough you may as well be naked.
Choose.
If you could get just as high an AC with S&B then there would be no choice. S&B would effectively be the only tank build available because it would be far superior to the alternative.

But the pajama wearer gets a higher DPS and higher AC vs a S&B getting lower AC but damage mitigation IF they take feats for it. A TWF will always get higher DPS even if they never take the TWF feat....a S&B user won't get damage mitigation unless they take a feat.

grodon9999
02-14-2012, 03:10 PM
But the pajama wearer gets a higher DPS and higher AC vs a S&B getting lower AC but damage mitigation IF they take feats for it. A TWF will always get higher DPS even if they never take the TWF feat....a S&B user won't get damage mitigation unless they take a feat.


Oh come on, that is a ridiculous statement. You will ABSOLUTELY buy all three TWFing feats on such a toon, to propose otherwise is just plain dumb.

And I would never confuse what my TWFing pally has as being good DPS :)

elraido
02-14-2012, 03:40 PM
Oh come on, that is a ridiculous statement. You will ABSOLUTELY buy all three TWFing feats on such a toon, to propose otherwise is just plain dumb.

And I would never confuse what my TWFing pally has as being good DPS :)

While it is a rediculous statement, it is also true. That is the inherent problem that I am trying to show the other poster. He is saying there is a trade off with damage mitigation with a S&B vs a pajama user. I was simply showing him that to get that mitigation, it requires feat use and it isn't given automatically.

And while a TWF pally might not be "good" dps, it is still better than a S&B pally. And to say someone shouldn't get a +4 dodge bonus on an item because they have a different armor set, is silly.

Calebro
02-14-2012, 06:36 PM
But the pajama wearer gets a higher DPS and higher AC vs a S&B getting lower AC but damage mitigation IF they take feats for it. A TWF will always get higher DPS even if they never take the TWF feat....a S&B user won't get damage mitigation unless they take a feat.


While it is a rediculous statement, it is also true. That is the inherent problem that I am trying to show the other poster. He is saying there is a trade off with damage mitigation with a S&B vs a pajama user. I was simply showing him that to get that mitigation, it requires feat use and it isn't given automatically.

And while a TWF pally might not be "good" dps, it is still better than a S&B pally. And to say someone shouldn't get a +4 dodge bonus on an item because they have a different armor set, is silly.

It is also true that the S&B has a TON more threat gen, so the while his DPS is lower, his *perceived* DPS is close to equal, and in some cases higher, while retaining that mitigation.
There are benefits and drawbacks to both styles. Both styles require feat expenditure to compete. Don't pretend that just any old tank with a pair of wraps and ZERO TWF feats would be able to hold aggro. The fact that you even allude to it is ridiculous.

Again, there are benefits and drawbacks to both styles. See my previous post which you quoted.

Glenalth
02-15-2012, 01:45 AM
Well, black-letter D&D 3.5 rules...Dodge bonuses don't come from spells or items-

It's one of my favorite lines in the SRD since it includes the Haste spell that grants a dodge bonus. I think the workaround is saying that the increased speed is what grants the dodge bonus and not the spell itself.

elraido
02-15-2012, 10:44 AM
It is also true that the S&B has a TON more threat gen, so the while his DPS is lower, his *perceived* DPS is close to equal, and in some cases higher, while retaining that mitigation.
There are benefits and drawbacks to both styles. Both styles require feat expenditure to compete. Don't pretend that just any old tank with a pair of wraps and ZERO TWF feats would be able to hold aggro. The fact that you even allude to it is ridiculous.

Again, there are benefits and drawbacks to both styles. See my previous post which you quoted.

You get that threat gen IF you intim and/or a DoS. A battle cleric with a shield isn't going to generate any more threat as he normally would.

Also read the DoS enhancement
---------------------------------------------------------
Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance

* You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Sacred bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

The 75% threat generation bonus is only applied while the user is wielding a shield.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And now read the SD enchancement
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighter Stalwart Defender III

* Usage: Passive

* Cost: 2 action points

* Progression: 66 action points

* Requires One of: Fighter Armor Mastery III, Fighter Armored Agility III, Fighter Toughness III, Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III, Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel

* Requires All of: Fighter Item Defense II, Fighter Armor Class Boost III, Fighter Stalwart Defender II

* Available to Fighter class level 18

* Your defensive mastery is complete. This prestige enhancement increases your armor class by +1, grants +2 to intimidate, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by medium or heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In addition, when you have a one handed melee weapon and shield equipped, you possess DR 6/-. You may expend a use of Fighter action boost to to enter Stalwart Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance.

* This enhancement automatically grants the following:

[edit] Stalwart Defender III: Superior Defensive Stance

* You may expend a Fighter armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Competence bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Competence bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Competence bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see it anywhere in there where a fighter needs to have a shield to get the extra threat generation...but a Paladin does.

While this is a little off track, I think it shows and allows how much better a fighter is off vs a Paladin. Fighters have a lot more feats than a paladin, so they can take the TWF and shield feats to give them more flexibility. A paladin is lucky to have enough feats to go all the way with one route (I know on my main paladin, I can't even afford the shield bash feat to help increase DPS...or even THF for glancing blows from the EFang).

Glenalth
02-15-2012, 11:01 AM
Defender of Siberys III: Superior Defensive Stance

* You may expend a Paladin armor boost to become a bastion of defense, gaining a +6 Sacred bonus to Strength and Constitution, +20% maximum hit points, a +3 Sacred bonus on all saves, and a +4 Dodge bonus to Armor Class. You also gain a 75% Sacred bonus to threat generated with your melee attacks. While in this stance, you move 10% slower.

The 75% threat generation bonus is only applied while the user is wielding a shield.

It looks like someone threw that last line onto the wiki with no comments or explanation while it contradicts the in game text for the stance.

Right now you should see a 75% threat enhancement for being in defensive stance regardless of weapons equipped and an additional 75% when you equip a melee weapon and shield.

elraido
02-15-2012, 11:04 AM
It looks like someone threw that last line onto the wiki with no comments or explanation while it contradicts the in game text for the stance.

Right now you should see a 75% threat enhancement for being in defensive stance regardless of weapons equipped and an additional 75% when you equip a melee weapon and shield.

Well, at least that is cleared up. :D My fighter has been stuck at level 7 for like a year now. Time to change up the wiki people!

sephiroth1084
02-15-2012, 11:30 AM
Because it causes you to choose a style.
If you go S&B you can get a high AC and have mitigation. When the AC isn't *quite* high enough, you still have that mitigation.
If you choose pajamas you can have a higher potential AC. When that AC isn't enough you may as well be naked.
Choose.
If you could get just as high an AC with S&B then there would be no choice. S&B would effectively be the only tank build available because it would be far superior to the alternative.
Earth Stance.

Anyway, my suggestion is to add +4 Dodge to the Docent of Grace, change the Epic Siren's set bonus from +4 Insight to +4 Dodge (and add slots to both the Charm and Belt, and completely redo the Charm so that it's worth putting on), and consider sticking +4 Dodge on a new epic 1-hander.

elraido
02-15-2012, 11:39 AM
Earth Stance.

Anyway, my suggestion is to add +4 Dodge to the Docent of Grace, change the Epic Siren's set bonus from +4 Insight to +4 Dodge (and add slots to both the Charm and Belt, and completely redo the Charm so that it's worth putting on), and consider sticking +4 Dodge on a new epic 1-hander.

Is the Sirens set a belt? If so that fugs up a paladins ToD set. Granted I would get two more ac out of it but could lose some threat.

sephiroth1084
02-15-2012, 11:45 AM
Is the Sirens set a belt? If so that fugs up a paladins ToD set. Granted I would get two more ac out of it but could lose some threat.
Paladins can wear Necklace + Gem of Many Facets or decide that the net gain of +2 AC is worth giving up their DoS set bonus (the Siren's belt has +8 armor and +5 Protection on it).

Fighters can wear the Belt + Gem, or give up their set.

Other types concerned with AC can do any of the above. For a Dex-based AC character, the belt is pretty good as a way to free up both your body and bracers slots and still get your +8 armor item, which allows you to, say, wear the Bracers of Wind for +3 Dodge and +1 Dodge, and wear a non-fully upgraded Frozen Tunic or Garments of Equilibrium or DT armor.

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 12:12 PM
earth stance.

Anyway, my suggestion is to add +4 dodge to the docent of grace, change the epic siren's set bonus from +4 insight to +4 dodge (and add slots to both the charm and belt, and completely redo the charm so that it's worth putting on), and consider sticking +4 dodge on a new epic 1-hander.



hell no!

sephiroth1084
02-15-2012, 01:27 PM
hell no!

Why?

The options of getting your +4 Insight on a ring, alchemical or greensteel weapon, cloak, or shield aren't sufficient?

elraido
02-15-2012, 02:00 PM
Why?

The options of getting your +4 Insight on a ring, alchemical or greensteel weapon, cloak, or shield aren't sufficient?

Agreed. I have it on three freaking items already. Epic Fang, Epic swashbuckler and the ring out of VoD....with the ability to have it on a lot of other items you mentioned.

While I think it is a cool idea to have boots of anchoring in the game, they just aren't used enough....and you can't really count on the boots slot as a place to put anything important because you will have to remove them for ToD.

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 02:03 PM
Why?

The options of getting your +4 Insight on a ring, alchemical or greensteel weapon, cloak, or shield aren't sufficient?

Because I have it for a reason and will go kicking and screaming if they try to change it :)

if you want a Dodge 4 necklace . . . make a dodge 4 necklace that's a new item. Don't screw over people's existing gear-sets.

elraido
02-15-2012, 02:12 PM
Because I have it for a reason and will go kicking and screaming if they try to change it :)

if you want a Dodge 4 necklace . . . make a dodge 4 necklace that's a new item. Don't screw over people's existing gear-sets.

That is where I have my Min II greensteel necklace!!! Don't you dare!!!

sephiroth1084
02-15-2012, 02:14 PM
Because I have it for a reason and will go kicking and screaming if they try to change it :)

if you want a Dodge 4 necklace . . . make a dodge 4 necklace that's a new item. Don't screw over people's existing gear-sets.
You can't get your Insight 4 anywhere else, and already have Dodge 4 slotted somewhere?

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 02:17 PM
You can't get your Insight 4 anywhere else, and already have Dodge 4 slotted somewhere?

So what? I build this silly thing for 4 Insight AC. You don't bait-n-switch bonuses on people.

Make a new necklace with 4 dodge, keep your filthy paws off mine you damned-dirty-ape :)

sephiroth1084
02-15-2012, 02:20 PM
So what? I build this silly thing for 4 Insight AC. You don't bait-n-switch bonuses on people.

Make a new necklace with 4 dodge, keep your filthy paws off mine you damned-dirty-ape :)
I did, too, and stopped using the set, because it's weak. Simply adding a necklace with +4 Dodge on it doesn't fully solve the issue, as it leaves the players who would prefer the belt + gem combo out in the cold.

And the set needs revamping along the same lines as the House P and D epic items were improved. Changing it from Insight to Dodge would be an improvement for most people.

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 02:26 PM
I did, too, and stopped using the set, because it's weak. Simply adding a necklace with +4 Dodge on it doesn't fully solve the issue, as it leaves the players who would prefer the belt + gem combo out in the cold.

And the set needs revamping along the same lines as the House P and D epic items were improved. Changing it from Insight to Dodge would be an improvement for most people.

I don't care, it screws me.

Seriously, don't change stuff on people after they've already crafted it, make a new item.

elraido
02-15-2012, 02:34 PM
Making a new item would be a better idea. I just just want it on my feet and be able to slot anchoring on an epic item. :D

Sarisa
02-15-2012, 02:50 PM
I don't care, it screws me.

Seriously, don't change stuff on people after they've already crafted it, make a new item.

Unfortunately, that's not Turbine's thing anymore. Some items get clear upgrades, while retaining the same build-use as before (Most House P/D epic upgrades, Reaver's upgrades). Others, though, are either clear nerfs that did not need to be done, or change the whole functionality of an item (Old vs. New Chimera's Fang, some Abbot "upgrades").

The new Chimera's Fang is great, and made it a much more useful item overall, but it does serve a different role from before.

I don't think we can ever expect to have an item guaranteed to be the same usefulness after a change.

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't think we can ever expect to have an item guaranteed to be the same usefulness after a change.



But we can lobby vigorously (but respectfully, don't pull a 'Shade') against changes that we don't want and Turbine does listen.

Remember the proposed Madstone change?

elraido
02-15-2012, 03:19 PM
Remember the proposed Madstone change?

I gave up on that thread a long time ago....are they not changing it now?

grodon9999
02-15-2012, 04:01 PM
I gave up on that thread a long time ago....are they not changing it now?

They are not, our protests were heard.

Turbine may not react as fast as some of us would like but they do listen to us.

aristarchus1000
02-15-2012, 04:31 PM
It looks like someone threw that last line onto the wiki with no comments or explanation while it contradicts the in game text for the stance.

Right now you should see a 75% threat enhancement for being in defensive stance regardless of weapons equipped and an additional 75% when you equip a melee weapon and shield.

I've seen at least a few forum reports that the Tier 3 Stalwart Defender Defender Stance bonus is not working if you don't use the shield.

I don't have a link handy now, but I'll try to find it.

edit - see here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352488

Ralmeth
02-15-2012, 09:34 PM
This has been like this for a long while now (no +4 dodge bonus items for defenders). Why all of a sudden is this an issue? Just curious. Personally I think there are way too many stacking AC bonuses in the game with dodge being the worst offender. This results in a huge range of possible ACs that the developers have to design for. I personally wouldn't mind if AC was capped so that the developers could design monster to hits so they could balance difficulty. It's not really a nerf to anyone with a high AC if they are still only getting hit on a 20. Besides This is how PnP was originally way back in the day when -10 was the best AC you could get. I also wouldn't be against dodge items not stacking with each other. That always seemed like you could have a huge range of AC differences based on a couple of rare items (I.e. +3 and +4).

Rhysem
02-15-2012, 10:31 PM
This has been like this for a long while now (no +4 dodge bonus items for defenders). Why all of a sudden is this an issue? Just curious. Personally I think there are way too many stacking AC bonuses in the game with dodge being the worst offender. This results in a huge range of possible ACs that the developers have to design for. I personally wouldn't mind if AC was capped so that the developers could design monster to hits so they could balance difficulty. It's not really a nerf to anyone with a high AC if they are still only getting hit on a 20. Besides This is how PnP was originally way back in the day when -10 was the best AC you could get. I also wouldn't be against dodge items not stacking with each other. That always seemed like you could have a huge range of AC differences based on a couple of rare items (I.e. +3 and +4).

Even minus the dodge bonuses, the existence of raid gear (exceptional +1/+2 stats) and ship buffs (+2 stats) and the extreme slope of tome availability (+2 common, +3 rare and +4 high end raiders) means that on the right character (a monk) you're talking a variability of AC in the range of 6 pts from the level 20 good gear but no uber guild non-raider to the high end raider with level 100 guild. That's not including the +dodge bonus guys on the ship either, nor the alchemical dodge ritual (since largely that's available to both). The difference could be more if you include +7 stat items, up to 8 points of AC in a best case for the raider.

The base problem is that 1d20 is too small a variance compared to what gear/class/stats can do for the things you're rolling with or against. This is especially a problem when you try to play newer content where they scaled the to-hits to challenge TRing vets who have the best (or all that gear above for the 20s) compared to the old content on the same quest level/difficulty slider.