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~Quilny
02-12-2012, 09:55 PM
Ok has anyone suggested yet that death pen should only effect the person that dies? I mean 1 person being dumb shouldn't effect everyone right? Why not the person that dies get the -10% and everyone else still be at flawless same with hire person whos hire dies gets the -5%. This is a socail game and I love groupign with people but its hit or miss. I feel like everyday im gambling am I goign to get a decent good or Horrible player. I just listed 3 options and 2 werent bad you would think odds would be on my side ;). Anyways sigh just a idea let me know what you guys think love the feed back even the negitive.

Robert4818
02-12-2012, 10:03 PM
Ok has anyone suggested yet that death pen should only effect the person that dies? I mean 1 person being dumb shouldn't effect everyone right? Why not the person that dies get the -10% and everyone else still be at flawless same with hire person whos hire dies gets the -5%. This is a socail game and I love groupign with people but its hit or miss. I feel like everyday im gambling am I goign to get a decent good or Horrible player. I just listed 3 options and 2 werent bad you would think odds would be on my side ;). Anyways sigh just a idea let me know what you guys think love the feed back even the negitive.

And if I die because the healer refuses to heal, or heals poorly, why should I suffer a penalty and he keeps full xp?

This is a team game, and the team lives and dies on its teamwork.

Asmodeus451
02-12-2012, 10:07 PM
Ok has anyone suggested yet that death pen should only effect the person that dies? I mean 1 person being dumb shouldn't effect everyone right? Why not the person that dies get the -10% and everyone else still be at flawless same with hire person whos hire dies gets the -5%. This is a socail game and I love groupign with people but its hit or miss. I feel like everyday im gambling am I goign to get a decent good or Horrible player. I just listed 3 options and 2 werent bad you would think odds would be on my side ;). Anyways sigh just a idea let me know what you guys think love the feed back even the negitive.


And if I die because the healer refuses to heal, or heals poorly, why should I suffer a penalty and he keeps full xp?

This is a team game, and the team lives and dies on its teamwork.

i can see wher both are coming from here, but i have to agree with Rob.

D&D, and by extension DDO, is a team game.

Saravis
02-12-2012, 10:07 PM
To be honest I'd be fine with them removing it altogether. It's an unnecessary system that just leads to idiotic drama.

People can start viewing deaths as valiant sacrifices as opposed to dimwitted screw-ups.

freekay
02-12-2012, 10:15 PM
It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such.

People need to shift their paradigms from seeing things in such negative ways. 10%, even to a 3rd lifer is easily recouped. Now with bravery bonuses and elite streaks, not being awarded the 10% bonus is even more inconsequential.

redspecter23
02-12-2012, 10:41 PM
It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such.

People need to shift their paradigms from seeing things in such negative ways. 10%, even to a 3rd lifer is easily recouped. Now with bravery bonuses and elite streaks, not being awarded the 10% bonus is even more inconsequential.

Glass half empty or half full? It doesn't change how much is in the glass. Calling it a bonus or penalty is just arguing how it's worded. The point is you get less xp if someone dies. Some people think it's the end of the world to lose that xp. Others don't care so much. I personally don't like tying your gained xp to how a flawless run, but I can see why others like it.

DavionFuxa
02-12-2012, 11:01 PM
I would hate to make it so that if I die I lose experience. What if I'm running the suicide mission? Those guys doing the Puzzle in Xorian Cipher for example usually have a far easier time of it then us guys down here getting our asses handed to us by the 3 named skeletons and boneshriekers. For that reason I think it should effect the group.

I also think that if your group flawlessly runs a quest you should get a bonus to experience. Just like if you run a quest without killing anything (or only killing one monster) or whatever else you might do. It gives over-achievers and power-levelers something to aim for when running their characters.

However, the game is also advancing to the point where there is a disconnect between new players and older players. I wouldn't be against it being removed or the bonus reduced for the simple reason of encouraging older players to party with newer players instead of not doing so because they may cost them an extra 10% experience.

EnjoyTheJourney
02-12-2012, 11:05 PM
If the flawless bonus was tied exclusively to players, then you'd see more players dragging mobs to the rest of the team after they get in trouble, to save their own bonus, even if they do it at the expense of their teammates. You'd also see more griefing if letting a teammate die, or assisting in their death, did not also penalize all team members.

The OP was clearly made with good intentions, but the outcome would be perverse.

/unsigned

~Quilny
02-12-2012, 11:49 PM
Ok so there is no perfect solution to any problem. Im becomign very aware of this as i grow older. However Instead of people learning helplessness because of this can't we take baby steps in the right direction? (learned helplessness Pych term)

I love how peeps always blame healers :S I play more than just heals btw my main toon is 3 lives away form completionist. I think it helps having played a healer to know Fortt healign amp dr ac are good things.

Im not askign for the world im asking to not be penalized for grouping with newer people who don't know everything yet thats all. It might be too much of a request and for that i am sorry.

Robert4818
02-12-2012, 11:54 PM
Ok so there is no perfect solution to any problem. Im becomign very aware of this as i grow older. However Instead of people learning helplessness because of this can't we take baby steps in the right direction? (learned helplessness Pych term)

I love how peeps always blame healers :S I play more than just heals btw my main toon is 3 lives away form completionist. I think it helps having played a healer to know Fortt healign amp dr ac are good things.

Im not askign for the world im asking to not be penalized for grouping with newer people who don't know everything yet thats all. It might be too much of a request and for that i am sorry.

Not really blaming the healer, just pointing out that a death penalty usually isn't just the fault of one person.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 12:18 AM
sorry I know i am fightign a loosing battle but i cant help myself 4,378,500 is whata 3rd lifer needs so 10% of that is 437,800 Which you cna Imagine is a lot of quests to be run to make up for death pens. I also know it is not a pen but a Bonus you get for doing good. However once you have reached a certain point in the game it becomes expected. I have soloed and short manned alot because of this. I've also recieved tells from people asking to join or askign if there friend who is new can join which usually results in a pen. I don't want to be the bad guy by saying no you or you cannot come. It would be easier if they just did away with it or in my opinion FIX it. the peopel who say if I die everyone whould get pen are the people who like to take others down with them :( very very sad.

Robert4818
02-13-2012, 12:33 AM
sorry I know i am fightign a loosing battle but i cant help myself 4,378,500 is whata 3rd lifer needs so 10% of that is 437,800 Which you cna Imagine is a lot of quests to be run to make up for death pens. I also know it is not a pen but a Bonus you get for doing good. However once you have reached a certain point in the game it becomes expected. I have soloed and short manned alot because of this. I've also recieved tells from people asking to join or askign if there friend who is new can join which usually results in a pen. I don't want to be the bad guy by saying no you or you cannot come. It would be easier if they just did away with it or in my opinion FIX it. the peopel who say if I die everyone whould get pen are the people who like to take others down with them :( very very sad.

Here's another example.

You are running a dungeon with a Rogue. He goes to disable the trap, and it blows up in his face.

Now, since the rogue failed his trap roll, everyone needs to try to navigate the trap. If someone fails that navigation they die.

So, why is it solely that person's fault because the rogue failed his trap roll?

If you are in a fight with a big boss, and your dps is using the wrong spells (for example, fireballs against a fire elemental). Now the guy isn't getting hurt fast enough, and the fighter dies because of the incompetence of the other caster. Once again, how is it the fighter's fault alone, when he died.

In the end, thats my point. DDO is a team sport, and yes, some people do die on their own, but more often than not there simply more to it than that.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 12:52 AM
Excuses are nails they are the nails that built the house of failure.

You cna make up all the examples you want but in the end its the players skill/build/choices that makes him live or die. Im not saying I never die and Im perfect. Im sayign people should get what they deserve.

DavionFuxa
02-13-2012, 01:03 AM
Excuses are nails they are the nails that built the house of failure.

You cna make up all the examples you want but in the end its the players skill/build/choices that makes him live or die. Im not saying I never die and Im perfect. Im sayign people should get what they deserve.

The problem is, a players skill/build/choices can make his party mates die. This is a team game and a players choices don't just effect just himself.

Talias006
02-13-2012, 01:17 AM
Excuse me while I lol all over that "excuses" tripe.

Really? "Excuses are nails..." and then "people should get what they deserve."

Be careful what you wish for.

Robert4818
02-13-2012, 01:34 AM
Excuses are nails they are the nails that built the house of failure.

You cna make up all the examples you want but in the end its the players skill/build/choices that makes him live or die. Im not saying I never die and Im perfect. Im sayign people should get what they deserve.

And if a Rogue screws up a trap disable, and other people die because of it, then he should suffer that same punishment.

Flavilandile
02-13-2012, 02:02 AM
Ok has anyone suggested yet that death pen should only effect the person that dies? .

Once upon a time the death penalty was a cumulative XP debt...
Once upon a time you could have up to +50% in quests if your party was several level below the quest level. ( cumulative with first time )
Once upon a time where wasn't the +10% bonus XP for no death.

All that has been removed in favor of the system we have now.

If you want to go back to the old system, I'm signing right now.
( as I find it way better than the Bravery thingie that makes everybody go elite when they know they can't do it )
Doing VON 3 with LVL 5/6 characters was fun, and even after 4/5 death you earned lots of XP.
Doing Tempest Spine at LVL 6/7 was even more fun. ( especially as not everybody had Feather fall )

if you want to change the way the 10% bonus XP for no death works, then not signed.
It's a bonus for the group to behave as a group, not an entitlement, put in to compensate the removal of the xp bonuses for doing quests way over your level.

Meetch1972
02-13-2012, 02:12 AM
IMNSHO, If the death "penalty" bothers you so much, then only run with others who are similarly bothered by it. Don't run with first or second life hitch-hikers on your third life toon. Be elitist if you want to! Heck, solo elite streak if you're that good and want only one HP bar to watch.

If you don't want to be elitist, do what the rest of us do and take what comes. :)

There used to be more incentive not to die, but that was before I started (effective actual XP loss, anyone?) Ahh... mentioned in the above post.

The argument about losing 10% of all the xp up to the 4.3 million is flawed too - in that over all you'll probably only see a death in maybe half those runs. So more like 220k xp or 20 or so "ok" quests worth of "lost" xp - maximum... it's far more of an issue at the higher levels too.... edit: or is it?

Uska
02-13-2012, 02:14 AM
no it shouldnt and it isnt a penalty its the loss of a bonus they are comepletely different things.

Uska
02-13-2012, 02:16 AM
sorry I know i am fightign a loosing battle but i cant help myself 4,378,500 is whata 3rd lifer needs so 10% of that is 437,800 Which you cna Imagine is a lot of quests to be run to make up for death pens. I also know it is not a pen but a Bonus you get for doing good. However once you have reached a certain point in the game it becomes expected. I have soloed and short manned alot because of this. I've also recieved tells from people asking to join or askign if there friend who is new can join which usually results in a pen. I don't want to be the bad guy by saying no you or you cannot come. It would be easier if they just did away with it or in my opinion FIX it. the peopel who say if I die everyone whould get pen are the people who like to take others down with them :( very very sad.

Your using 10% of the total needed is a really really bad example and a complete falsehood and also takes all the wind out of the winds of your arguement.

MRMechMan
02-13-2012, 02:18 AM
It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such.

People need to shift their paradigms from seeing things in such negative ways. 10%, even to a 3rd lifer is easily recouped. Now with bravery bonuses and elite streaks, not being awarded the 10% bonus is even more inconsequential.

This.

If someone throws a hissy fit at 10% XP they don't know how to level well and are betraying their own "noobness".

Occasionally someone will die in a party of mine and apologize profusely and repeatedly because I am on a double TR...what kind of D-bag reamed this guy out so hard that he feels the need to get on his knees when dying with a legend in the group?

It's just not a huge deal.

Aaxeyu
02-13-2012, 02:22 AM
It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such.

Whatever you call it you still lose 10% of base exp if someones dies.
That said, losing 10% of base exp is not the end of the world.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 02:54 AM
Here's another example.

You are running a dungeon with a Rogue. He goes to disable the trap, and it blows up in his face.

Now, since the rogue failed his trap roll, everyone needs to try to navigate the trap. If someone fails that navigation they die.

So, why is it solely that person's fault because the rogue failed his trap roll?

If you are in a fight with a big boss, and your dps is using the wrong spells (for example, fireballs against a fire elemental). Now the guy isn't getting hurt fast enough, and the fighter dies because of the incompetence of the other caster. Once again, how is it the fighter's fault alone, when he died.

In the end, thats my point. DDO is a team sport, and yes, some people do die on their own, but more often than not there simply more to it than that.
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/exarmy2007/Deathislame.jpg


http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/exarmy2007/Elitestreakproof.jpg

I know I know massivheals as a fighter??? TR life Im goign completionist. Which is why this is a big deal for me. I don't want to be the jerk that doesn't let new players into my groups. However i do not want to get -10% for being nice. Seems wrong to me that nice guys finish last.

In this pic the rogue with evasion failed to get key so ate a cookie for coldshield threw on my fire resist/absorb gear and did it. Point being that I overcame. back to the talk about Excuses. Most traps in game are avoidable as well and or can be timed.

Forgeborn
02-13-2012, 02:59 AM
sorry I know i am fightign a loosing battle but i cant help myself 4,378,500 is whata 3rd lifer needs so 10% of that is 437,800 Which you cna Imagine is a lot of quests to be run to make up for death pens.

Except the 10% is based on the 'base experience' of the quest, and not on the total experience, those numbers would only be correct if you have someone re-enter on each and every quest you run, never get any optionals, never even kill enough to get aggression, break enough breakables to achieve misschief, never do a quest for the first time on a difficulty, never gain bravery streak bonusses, and never complete any optional in a quest during that life.

Right, so that's never gonna happen, it's more like 100k at best on 3rd lifer.

Your own screenshot shows that 10% of the xp is about 197xp, which is 10% of the base xp, and not the 550 is should be if it were based on the total xp.

And as so many have said, I will echo again: It's not always the fault of the person dying.

Trapper fails to disable trap, or assumes that people can dodge it, and just let's it sit, person dies in said trap. You could argue it's the fault of the person that dies, because he didn't avoid it well enough, or had to little HP to survive the hit. Could fault the trapper for not disabling it and placing his party members in unnecessary danger.

Person rushes ahead, or down the wrong corridor, and takes to much aggro. Instead of 'manning up' and dying far away from the group, he decides to pull everything back to the unsuspecting party, someone else bites the dust due to whatever reason. Could fault the person dying for not having being prepared for it, or could fault the person that took all the aggro in the first place and pulled it back to the group.

Person that was brought along as the healer of the group decides he prefer to weakly prod at a mob inside the quest, boss is hitting the 'tanks' for 60-70 damage per hit, one of the tanks dies because of the damage intake. Could fault the tank for not having enough AC, DR, or HP to survive a few more hits, or could blame the healer for not doing the thing he was brought along for.

Caster is asked to prepare certain spells, like web, wail, or invisibility, or asked if he has those at the ready for when they are needed. However, caster decides he prefers other spells in those slots, lying to the group about it. Time comes, and there is no needed CC, or no way to safely get the group to bypass a tough pack of 'thrash' mobs, fight ensues and someone bites the dust. Could blame the person that bit the dust for not having been prepared for the fight, or could blame the caster for having ignored the requests that had been placed by the group (leader).

Robert4818
02-13-2012, 03:03 AM
I know I know massivheals as a fighter??? TR life Im goign completionist. Which is why this is a big deal for me. I don't want to be the jerk that doesn't let new players into my groups. However i do not want to get -10% for being nice. Seems wrong to me that nice guys finish last.

In this pic the rogue with evasion failed to get key so ate a cookie for coldshield threw on my fire resist/absorb gear and did it. Point being that I overcame. back to the talk about Excuses. Most traps in game are avoidable as well and or can be timed.

Well as a 9th level fighter, I need to point out that we might as well strip out the 10% bonus the rogue earned you with his trap disablement.

I mean, being the uber-fighter, your build should allow you to remove traps as well, earning you that 10% without help. After-all if someone is going to reap the penalties for their own deaths, you should not be able to reap the benefits of their uses.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 03:17 AM
traps can be Avoided as shown and stated. you geta rogue for bonus xp
If they die they really havent done much:(. This rogue was cool
I enjoyed bsing with him and stuff it was a fun run all together really.
You seem to be missing the point of this thread. Good people who
group with newer players are being punished for grouping up with newer
players. I do find it easier to let new playersw into my party when I
know the quest has traps. Traps are usually 15% so with deaths i get
5% so works out ok :D. However not all quests have trap bonus to
make up for said deaths and some rogues are not able to disarm traps:(.
this post isnt meant to show how elite anyone is. I am not the only
person that feels this way. I am not the only person gunning for completionist
there are plenty of other tr's that feel the same way. Talking with a few in vent
they think its funny im wasting my time on the forums :(.
having said all I feel is needed this will be my last post on this topic.
Regardless of what happends I will continue to help those that want help.

Robert4818
02-13-2012, 03:24 AM
traps can be Avoided as shown and stated. you geta rogue for bonus xp
If they die they really havent done much:(. This rogue was cool
I enjoyed bsing with him and stuff it was a fun run all together really.
You seem to be missing the point of this thread. Good people who
group with newer players are being punished for grouping up with newer
players. I do find it easier to let new playersw into my party when I
know the quest has traps. Traps are usually 15% so with deaths i get
5% so works out ok :D. However not all quests have trap bonus to
make up for said deaths and some rogues are not able to disarm traps:(.
this post isnt meant to show how elite anyone is. I am not the only
person that feels this way. I am not the only person gunning for completionist
there are plenty of other tr's that feel the same way. Talking with a few in vent
they think its funny im wasting my time on the forums :(.
having said all I feel is needed this will be my last post on this topic.
Regardless of what happends I will continue to help those that want help.

You have the problem of wanting your cake and eating it too.

You want to be rewarded for what teammates do if they are good, but you don't want to share penalties if someone screws up.

Basically, what you want is all of the rewards and none of the penalties. I say suck it up. If 137 xp on a level 9 quest kills you, then get over it.

DavionFuxa
02-13-2012, 03:35 AM
I can understand where your coming from but this just isn't the appropriate way to do it. If you feel that your really being penalized though for bringing along newbies then you should be asking for a bonus to compensate for your charity, IE like having a TR bonus that is calculated on the number of non-TR's in your group.

But you should drop this suggestion because there are too many reasons beyond someone not performing as well as they should and quite rightly dying for it.

Edit: And I fully agree with a revert to old systems Flavilandile.

Flavilandile
02-13-2012, 05:10 AM
Whatever you call it you still lose 10% of base exp if someones dies.

No, you're not losing 10% of base XP, you're losing a 10% bonus to base XP.
Base XP is what is written on top of the XP page and does not change.
Various bonuses are applied to that base XP upon quest completion, including the 10% bonus for no death.

If you really want a system that penalize those dying, the old system was fine. If you died you received an XP penalty ( a real one, displayed as a color change on your XP bar at the bottom that you had to repay by earning XP without dying. ), but nobody else was concerned by your death. So the squishy barbarian zerger that dies 10 times in a quest will not earn any XP, because all his XP will to to repaying the debt.

MRMechMan
02-13-2012, 05:23 AM
It's funny how 10% of base xp and a 10% bonus to base XP work out to be...


*whips out a calculator*

the same thing.


Taking nitpicking to a whole 'nother level.

Uska
02-13-2012, 06:00 AM
It's funny how 10% of base xp and a 10% bonus to base XP work out to be...


*whips out a calculator*

the same thing.


Taking nitpicking to a whole 'nother level.

No its not if you lost 10% of the base than all other bonuses would then be less as the base would now be less

MRMechMan
02-13-2012, 06:22 AM
No its not if you lost 10% of the base than all other bonuses would then be less as the base would now be less

If base XP is 10,000 and someone dies you lose 1,000, 10% of the base XP. I never said the base changes, just that you lost the equivalent of 10% of it.

Hence, losing 10% of base XP. I never said the base would go down to 9,000 and it would be foolish to assume someone meant that.

Talias006
02-13-2012, 07:17 PM
No its not if you lost 10% of the base than all other bonuses would then be less as the base would now be less

This is false, as you don't actually lose anything from the base exp; it stays the same.

The base exp is just the guide for however much percentage gain you get for varying circumstances.

Not gaining a percentage from the base does NOT mean you take it away from the base.

It's just that you don't get that bonus, plain and simple.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 07:45 PM
base xp 2000 10% 200 so when you enter it shoudl show 2200 if someone dies you end up with 2000. thats simple. Wow where do I pay the troll toll?
i give up i will pay.

sephiroth1084
02-13-2012, 08:32 PM
It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such.

People need to shift their paradigms from seeing things in such negative ways. 10%, even to a 3rd lifer is easily recouped. Now with bravery bonuses and elite streaks, not being awarded the 10% bonus is even more inconsequential.
Did I punch you in the face or did your head-butt my fist?

Talias006
02-13-2012, 09:18 PM
Depends...

If the glass is half full, it may mean you think of bonuses. (Optimist)

If the glass is half empty, it may mean you think of penalties. (Pessimist)

But what if I take the glass and drink it while you're debating this conundrum? (Opportunist) :D

Meetch1972
02-13-2012, 10:02 PM
I feel like I'm being trolled, but I can't resist! Also been helped to spot the error in my previous post this thread...

Ok, say base XP is 10,000.
No deaths: +10% (1000)
All traps done: +15% (1500)
Conquest: 25% (2500)
First time Bonus - elite: 80% (8000)
Bravery Bonus and Streak: +70% (7000)
Ransack: 15% (1500)
3% experience shrine: (300)
Voice of the master: +5% (500)
20% Bonus weekend: (2000)
(maybe other stuff, who cares)

The percentages are cumulative - add them all together at the end of the quest and multiply by the base to get that completion XP total. Of course, I'm also skipping optionals for the sake of simplicity - but they give you more XP!!! Total bonus above is 243% or 24300 extra XP! That's 34300 first time elite bravery streak with a great team milking xp on a 10k base quest.

If someone dies, the first 10% goes away. Then you get 33300 xp instead of 34300 - that's not 10%. If it's you that dies you lose that last 300 so it goes down to 33000. It's still not 10%

Yes it varies - some times there are no traps, or no way to get ransack, but in the above hypothetical ideal case if someone else dies you lose 1000/34300 or 2.91% of the xp on a max XP bravery streak run. If you die that "loss" totals at 3.79% of the possible XP. But what about the worst case when elite streaking?

No traps, no ransack or conquest etc... you get: Base + 150% (elite first plus elite streak bonus) instead of base + 160% (elite first plus elite streak bonus plus nobody dies). You actually lose no more than 3.85% of the total possible XP from death when elite streaking. The penalty works out a little higher on subsequent runs, but you're probably not doing it on elite on runs 2+, and are far less likely to die from that blown trap anyway.

Now let's say that between "on average" only doing the bare minimum while elite streaking, and getting all the optionals someone dies every single time. The worst case scenario would be less than 4% "penalty".

You won't lose 10% of 4.3 million if you "care" about xp via elite and are the unluckiest SOB on the planet. It's going to be 4% of 4.3 million, or 172k.

... ish.

sephiroth1084
02-13-2012, 10:26 PM
172k XP is a lot of questing.

Robert4818
02-13-2012, 10:36 PM
172k XP is a lot of questing.

It is, but thats assuming that you are so unlucky that EVERY QUEST causes you to lose that bonus. Its an absolute worst case scenario.

sephiroth1084
02-13-2012, 11:15 PM
It is, but thats assuming that you are so unlucky that EVERY QUEST causes you to lose that bonus. Its an absolute worst case scenario.
50k XP on a 3rd lifer is quite a bit of questing as well once you've assumed that they have probably run most quests on elite at least once through and have farmed-out the big XP-makers in order to get close to cap in the first place.

~Quilny
02-14-2012, 01:04 AM
It shouldn't even be about a TR it should be about paying for other peoples
Faults. You see it in every day real LIfe which is sad. Whats funny is this
works both ways If i die I loose the 10% as well so its not like I am gaining
everything and loosing nothing. This can ONLY benofit people if you don't
die you don't loose xp. I find it hard to believe that people think this is a bad
idea Ive heard some people say that it will cause griefers. . but in this game mobs white dot and go back to start. Noone can drag a bunch of mobs to you.
it would make griefing harder to do. Right now so so easy to grief just go in
quest die Wherever doesnt matter and say Oops. sigh.

/end rant

Gorbadoc
02-14-2012, 01:57 AM
I find it hard to believe...
That is why you fail. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrpBLDWyCI)

I don't mean that just for a cheap laugh. You're stalwart in sticking to your opinion on the topic. I can appreciate a person sticking to their guns, but this is different. We've seen evidence that, when you wrote your original post, you did NOT understand what 10% actually meant (10% is usually much less than 10%; see Forgeborne's post on page 2). And, yet, you remain just as incredulous of the idea that anyone would disagree with you.

Why is this? My suspicion is that you're not actually thinking about what anyone else says, beyond noting that they disagree with you. I guess that's okay; nothing bad happens as a result of us disagreeing. The apparent tenacity of your beliefs, though, undermines your credibility. Why should we care about your opinions, when your opinions are apparently not influenced by the revelation of fact? I know my own opinions would be worthless if I never allowed them to be challenged. There's no reason to think your opinions are any different.

Aaxeyu
02-14-2012, 02:09 AM
No, you're not losing 10% of base XP, you're losing a 10% bonus to base XP.
Base XP is what is written on top of the XP page and does not change.
Various bonuses are applied to that base XP upon quest completion, including the 10% bonus for no death.

You are losing exp equivalent to 10% of the base exp. Is that better?

Gorbadoc
02-14-2012, 02:26 AM
You are losing exp equivalent to 10% of the base exp. Is that better?
Depends on whether we're allowing partial credit. If not, then, no, that isn't better.

We want to know the difference between how long two people will have to farm XP to cap if the only difference between them is that one never has a death in the group whereas the other always has one death in the group. If you plug base XP into that calculation instead of final XP, you'll get the wrong answer.

Aaxeyu
02-14-2012, 02:31 AM
Depends on whether we're allowing partial credit. If not, then, no, that isn't better.

We want to know the difference between how long two people will have to farm XP to cap if the only difference between them is that one never has a death in the group whereas the other always has one death in the group. If you plug base XP into that calculation instead of final XP, you'll get the wrong answer.

I think you need to read my post and the one I quoted again...

Gorbadoc
02-14-2012, 02:47 AM
I think you need to read my post and the one I quoted again...

So be it; I'll reread.

I see some rhetoric flying about, trying to pitch Base XP as though anyone ought to care about it. The bit you quoted from Flavilandile points out two things:
First, as you are now noting, it is in fact 10% of the base that is lost.
Second, there's a point which many posts have obfuscated, and that's the fact that no one ought to care about base XP, because people rarely ever earn just the base XP.
I'm sorry to have become involved in this bogging-down of the discussion. I'll state my opinion explicitly: If you care about base XP rather than total XP, then you're caring about the wrong number.

Aaxeyu
02-14-2012, 03:00 AM
So be it; I'll reread.

I see some rhetoric flying about, trying to pitch Base XP as though anyone ought to care about it. The bit you quoted from Flavilandile points out two things:
First, as you are now noting, it is in fact 10% of the base that is lost.
Second, there's a point which many posts have obfuscated, and that's the fact that no one ought to care about base XP, because people rarely ever earn just the base XP.
I'm sorry to have become involved in this bogging-down of the discussion. I'll state my opinion explicitly: If you care about base XP rather than total XP, then you're caring about the wrong number.

You are dragging me in to a discussion I was never a part of.

Someone said: "It's not a penalty. It's a bonus. The XP report even states it as such."
All I am saying is that it doesn't matter what you call it, you still lose the equivalent 10% of the base exp if someone dies.

Sidewaysgts86
02-14-2012, 03:15 AM
You are losing exp equivalent to 10% of the base exp. Is that better?

Think of it as a "You succeeding in helping to help keep your party alive bonus". Is that better?

/not signed. Like others- I view it as a "bonus", icing on the top, gravy, or what have you. I dont view NOT getting this "bonus" as a "penalty". Im 100% down for a "We helped eacho ther stay alive" bonus. Dont succeed? Dont get the bonus. Just my thoughts, anyways.

MRMechMan
02-14-2012, 03:16 AM
All I am saying is that it doesn't matter what you call it, you still lose the equivalent 10% of the base exp if someone dies.

Doesn't matter how clear you make it or how right you are, if there's the slightest chance of an argument, they'll take it!

Forgeborn
02-14-2012, 03:23 AM
Flawless victory is a 'bonus' that is earned by coöperation, the entire team works towards it by helping each other survive. The trapper removes the traps so the clumsy people don't step in it, the caster disables the mobs, the beefy dps keeps the powerful mobs on them instead of on the squishies, the 'healer' heals what wounds are obtained during the quest.

If you do not do that, and someone in that equation is not doing his 'task' then the entire team suffers, just the same as if someone goes above and beyond what's expected of his class, and gives the entire team a benefit because of it.

Now, in a perfect situation, each player can take care of his own, has self healing and crowd control sufficient to keep progress in the quest steady without the need to have others near him, even on a fully scaled elite quest. However, 'newer' players usually don't have that self suffiency/resources/preparation, they require a certain amount of babysitting, or 'guidance' so to speak. If you accept then, and wish to keep that bonus, that means you'll need to pay some attention to them, and try to guide them, or give them hints and tips (assuming they are willing to listen).

DDO is by it's nature a teambased game, we share bonusses (optionals, ransack, conquest, etc), and penalties (loss of flawless victory, loss of persistance) amongst all present in the quest, which makes sense. It wouldn't make sense to have penalties rest solely on the shoulders of a single entity, and bonusses still be shared. You can opt around this by going solo, where all burdens and benefits are yours only.

Also, if you are feeling 'griefed' by a player, there is always the option of recalling, and reforming around that player, to preserve your sacred 'flawless victory', or, ya know, just do what a lot of others do, and solo the quest instead.

freekay
02-14-2012, 03:31 AM
Challenge accepted. I will TR and die on each and every quest I enter so that I will lose the 10% bonus - bet it still won't be a prob to cap.

Kmnh
02-14-2012, 03:50 AM
Those 10% are there to people who can flawlessly coordinate a party, or flawlessly solo the quest. You are not entitled to them.

Picking who you bring along to a party is a social skill. It's part of the game.

~Quilny
02-14-2012, 12:27 PM
Think of it as a "You succeeding in helping to help keep your party alive bonus". Is that better?


Yes that is better:D LOL you made me laugh sir and yes i get it. out of everyone here I think you just made the most sense.

TPICKRELL
02-14-2012, 12:34 PM
In most cases the 10% death penalty is less than the xp from one run through a 5 minute challenge. It's not worth worrying about any more.

Robert4818
02-14-2012, 12:39 PM
It shouldn't even be about a TR it should be about paying for other peoples
Faults. You see it in every day real LIfe which is sad. Whats funny is this
works both ways If i die I loose the 10% as well so its not like I am gaining
everything and loosing nothing. This can ONLY benofit people if you don't
die you don't loose xp. I find it hard to believe that people think this is a bad
idea Ive heard some people say that it will cause griefers. . but in this game mobs white dot and go back to start. Noone can drag a bunch of mobs to you.
it would make griefing harder to do. Right now so so easy to grief just go in
quest die Wherever doesnt matter and say Oops. sigh.

/end rant

So, if a rogue fails to undo traps, should the rogue be the only one to suffer the 15% loss on xp from neutralizing traps?

Aaxeyu
02-14-2012, 12:44 PM
It makes sense for the penalty/bonus to work the way it does.

However, it does discourage people from playing with people they don't know.

Robert4818
02-14-2012, 12:47 PM
It makes sense for the penalty/bonus to work the way it does.

However, it does discourage people from playing with people they don't know.

SOME people. There are quite a few who recognize the fact that people die, and its no huge deal.

Aaxeyu
02-14-2012, 12:51 PM
SOME people. There are quite a few who recognize the fact that people die, and its no huge deal.

EVERYONE gets incentive to not group with people they don't know.
Now if they do it or not is irrelevant to that point.

Krago
02-14-2012, 12:54 PM
Ok has anyone suggested yet that death pen should only effect the person that dies? I mean 1 person being dumb shouldn't effect everyone right? Why not the person that dies get the -10% and everyone else still be at flawless same with hire person whos hire dies gets the -5%. This is a socail game and I love groupign with people but its hit or miss. I feel like everyday im gambling am I goign to get a decent good or Horrible player. I just listed 3 options and 2 werent bad you would think odds would be on my side ;). Anyways sigh just a idea let me know what you guys think love the feed back even the negitive.

Its even worse if the deaths are scripted into the quest. Shroud?

Seventoe
02-14-2012, 01:32 PM
Challenge accepted. I will TR and die on each and every quest I enter so that I will lose the 10% bonus - bet it still won't be a prob to cap.

I've been following this strategy on my own for quite some time! :)

But seriously, being a TR2 does not justify getting bent out of shape over the loss of a bonus which amounts to less than 5%. I understand that it can be grindy, and it can make you grumpy, but it shouldn't give anyone special license to get uptight about an accident. I mean, you have already signed up to earn 4.3 million xp. Nobody made you.

If you buy a Maserati you still have to feed the parking meter. And you shouldn't rage at the parking meter either when it costs you fifty cents to park.

~Quilny
02-14-2012, 01:41 PM
I've been following this strategy on my own for quite some time! :)

But seriously, being a TR2 does not justify getting bent out of shape over the loss of a bonus which amounts to less than 5%. I understand that it can be grindy, and it can make you grumpy, but it shouldn't give anyone special license to get uptight about an accident. I mean, you have already signed up to earn 4.3 million xp. Nobody made you.

If you buy a Maserati you still have to feed the parking meter. And you shouldn't rage at the parking meter either when it costs you fifty cents to park.

Agreed people should not get angry about 10% pretty lame. i think its ok for peopleto make suggestions to improve the game though.

dng242
02-15-2012, 06:23 AM
traps can be Avoided as shown and stated. you geta rogue for bonus xp
If they die they really havent done much:(. This rogue was cool
I enjoyed bsing with him and stuff it was a fun run all together really.
You seem to be missing the point of this thread. Good people who
group with newer players are being punished for grouping up with newer
players. I do find it easier to let new playersw into my party when I
know the quest has traps. Traps are usually 15% so with deaths i get
5% so works out ok :D. However not all quests have trap bonus to
make up for said deaths and some rogues are not able to disarm traps:(.
this post isnt meant to show how elite anyone is. I am not the only
person that feels this way. I am not the only person gunning for completionist
there are plenty of other tr's that feel the same way. Talking with a few in vent
they think its funny im wasting my time on the forums :(.
having said all I feel is needed this will be my last post on this topic.
Regardless of what happends I will continue to help those that want help.


The problem with the 10% is that it is rarely 10%
Running elite streaks? That 10% is (assume no traps, kill only one mob, not breaking anything, etc) is less than 4% of the total xp you get. If you break things, traps etc, it could be more in the 2% range.
Optional heavy quest. Streak or no, it will be less than 10% and possibly by a huge amount (I'm looking at you WizKing).
Farming? Okay, now you may have something. that 10% can actually be > 20% of the xp you will recieve for later runs (like when you get a -70% penalty). But only in later runs. Few quests do you run that many times (Shadow Crypt?; Von 3 is optional based....)

So basically, I don't invite noobs when I'm farming Shadown Crypt. Otherwise, it is way, way irrelivant.

Robert4818
02-15-2012, 09:50 AM
So basically, I don't invite noobs when I'm farming Shadown Crypt. Otherwise, it is way, way irrelivant.

:) Which, as a perpetual noob (i.e. I play so infrequently I rarely remember important stuff like dungeon layouts) I have to say, I don't mind not running farming runs. They tend to run through the dungeon so fast there's no time to really enjoy the experience.

dng242
02-15-2012, 09:59 AM
:) Which, as a perpetual noob (i.e. I play so infrequently I rarely remember important stuff like dungeon layouts) I have to say, I don't mind not running farming runs. They tend to run through the dungeon so fast there's no time to really enjoy the experience.

I have to admit, the only fun in farming is trying to do it faster. But, you can't argue with the xp from farming that one.

Thought, I don't have a problem inviting anyone, so long as they are will to accept our strategy and try to help the group.