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Ninety
02-09-2012, 01:19 AM
with the increase to the DC of terror, and the monk wraps working just fine on 1k+ hp people, please UnNerf Vorpal. it's not over powered, it's not faster than a Finger of death/wail/power word kill/etc.

more often than not, most trash mobs are dps downed long before vorpal hits currently, it's an absolute waste. pending that is if melee even get in range to hit the mob due to finger, wail, implosion, destruction, power word kill, etc etc.

I ran epic Devil's assault earlier tonight on my ranger, 2 PM's in the group so it often looked like (at least to me) that my weapons were casting finger of death anytime I got close to a mob.

Casters get a no cap insta kill effect, why can't melee?

Talias006
02-09-2012, 01:34 AM
Well, yes, they do, but they're also *limited* by their SP.

Or some other such (Inconceivable!) notion... :rolleyes:

Really, some sort of boost to Vorpal effectiveness would be greatly appreciated.

cheekysmile
02-09-2012, 01:55 AM
Well i'll point out another angle in that if the caster is killing everything before you get to it, go hit something they are less likely to instakill i.e. high will for arcane and high fort for divine. Number of times i've pointed this out to melee who still charge off to kill the casters in the distance leaving my fvs with the held melee leaves me wondering if i've been squelched.

Then again if you're running with both, go put the kettle on :)

dotHackSign
02-09-2012, 07:28 AM
Well i'll point out another angle in that if the caster is killing everything before you get to it, go hit something they are less likely to instakill i.e. high will for arcane and high fort for divine. Number of times i've pointed this out to melee who still charge off to kill the casters in the distance leaving my fvs with the held melee leaves me wondering if i've been squelched.

Then again if you're running with both, go put the kettle on :)

Hey, we could make it a drinking game, everytime a melee gets a mob, you drink :)


/signed either boost vorpal or create a more powerful version of vorpal.

Avidus
02-09-2012, 07:39 AM
I see the issue with vorpal being that it has the same limitations as the other instakill weapons (banishing/smiting/disruption) without the bonus 4d6 damage per swing.

Because of this vorpals are pretty much useless in the current state of the game. If it has less than 1k hp's your dps weapon of choice will kill it fast enough anyway. If it has over 1k hp's your vorpal can't kill it and your dps weapon of choice will take it down faster anyway.

Due to this situation, vorpals need to have 4d6 bleed/untyped damage per swing added to them (only if the mob is able to be vorpaled anyway) or have the hp threashold upped to 2500 or 5000 hp's and the bonus damage moved up from 100 to 250 or 500.
Or do both of these things.

The Vorpal weapon is iconic and to see it regulated to practically vendor trash status is a shame.

It also no longer warrants a +5 modifier value to weapons as it stands with its current implementation.

The other option would be don't add the bleed/bane damage and just remove the hp threshold alltogether.

Just my opinion anyways...

Ninety
02-09-2012, 07:49 AM
Well, yes, they do, but they're also *limited* by their SP.

Or some other such (Inconceivable!) notion... :rolleyes:

Really, some sort of boost to Vorpal effectiveness would be greatly appreciated.

ive got a 2nd life wizzy, WF as well so it's not the highest int and first life was a sorc, so I don't have the highest possible DC's either, but I can easily make it through 99.9% of content without drinking a pot, so the SP limitation isn't an issue due to shrines all over the place.

the only 2 places where I drink pots is eDQ1 and eLOB.

and I don't want my wizzy nerfed, I just want to be able to vorpal stuff.

Avidus idea would amazing. adding a 4d6 damage untyped/bane damage would be nice.

Battlehawke
02-09-2012, 07:52 AM
With Verpal the way it is now, and crafting so easy, it would be a poor choice to use a Vorpal Weapon. You would be hurting your DPS by doing so.

Of the "major five" , vorpal is the least effective.

The ultimate problem is that of the five, it is the only one that has to confirm the crit after a natural 20. If it could be changed to 100 damage on a crit (no confirmation) and maybe add a save if an instant death (below 1000 HP) then that would at least bring it up to par with the rest.

JOTMON
02-09-2012, 07:58 AM
The nerf was inevitable.

Vorpal's used to be a rare and wonderful thing, any vorpal of any type was treasured as a instant jackpot winner.

Over time they became much more common place and many players would have more than one.

I would have preferred to see make Vorpals easily damaged like making them out of glass so they are lethal, but also easily damaged.. Something to balance the power is preferred over Nerfing.

That or all the non-named vorpals become "lesser Vorpal" with the effects they have now and 4d6 on any crits, and have Epic Named or certain high level Rares to be True Vorpals with no HP cap and a higher damage proc on Reds/purples. Powerful True Vorpals do need to be difficult to obtain.


Would also like to see the un-nerfing of Wounding,Weakening,Maldroit... these were pretty much turned into trash weapons as mobs rebound too quickly for them to be as usefull as they once were. Change the effects so the Mobs don't insta-rebound or recouver quicly from the effects. Put the mobs on the same recouvery that we have as players when we are stat damaged.

Hellllboy
02-09-2012, 08:04 AM
With the inflation of HP in this game-1000 HP isn't very much anymore and this deems them useless-when you consider they are a ML 10 item-I dont think the Nerf vs. functionality is consistant. I would recommend a different mechanic. Vorpals were always known as a Insta-kill item. Its silly to think of them in that way based on how you have the weapon configured. ;)

grodon9999
02-09-2012, 08:06 AM
I don't know whether the limit needs to be removed . . . but it needs to be raised. 1000 HP is too low, 3000 HP feels about right.

somenewnoob
02-09-2012, 08:08 AM
Definitely needs some boost. Maybe not back to where it was but it needs something.

Cap for vorpal needs to be raised.

Damage on a vorpal if over the hp cap could be increased.

Could be put back to where it was, only add a % chance to vorpal based on BAB to prevent a wiz or something from just vorpaling away. I like this idea most of all.

krackythehoodedone
02-09-2012, 08:15 AM
Yes please Mr Turbine.

Raise the limit and graduate the effectiveness of the weapons as well.

Having spent the best part of two years making a pair of Chaosblades Epic only to have them made pretty much useless before i ever got to use them properly.

An Epic Chaosblade is still one of THE most difficult items in the game to make especially as most want a pair. They absolutely should be lopping the heads off any trash that is stooopid enough to stand in front of one

Chai
02-09-2012, 08:15 AM
Devistating critical for the win, modified so that players who focus on it have similar DC to necro focused wizards. Cooldown based so you push the button, and the next few crits are dev crits, followed by a 30 second cool down time.

It would bring melee right in line with casters, using a modified version of an already existing feat from 3e. The new cookie cutter builds will focus on falchion, rapier, and scimitar. :p

If they think vorpal is "no opportunity cost cheese fest," make us build it into our toons by having to qualify for, and take feats.

grodon9999
02-09-2012, 08:22 AM
Devistating critical for the win, modified so that players who focus on it have similar DC to necro focused wizards. Cooldown based so you push the button, and the next few crits are dev crits, followed by a 30 second cool down time.

It would bring melee right in line with casters, using a modified version of an already existing feat from 3e. The new cookie cutter builds will focus on falchion, rapier, and scimitar. :p

If they think vorpal is "no opportunity cost cheese fest," make us build it into our toons by having to qualify for, and take feats.

What is that? I'm a 2nd edition player.

Coup de grac would work to, give it like a 15 second cooldown where you can wind-up a big swing on a helpless target that'll give you a very high chance of a one-shot. The cooldown will prevent from being over-powered.

And that 'no opportunity cost" garbage is exactly that . . . garbage. There are more than enough shrines in 99% of the quests to never need to worry about running out of SP.

ArcaneMelee
02-09-2012, 08:38 AM
The reason they nerfed vorpals is 'cause they were the only thing the majority of players were using for hyper-inflated HP mobs. Since they seem to think that making every trash encounter a tank-n-spank is "challenging content", they had to do something.

I wonder why it's OK to one-shot a mob at level 1, but not at level 20? Probably because if they laid it on the new players in Korthos, their retention numbers would plummet.

Give me the old vorpals, please.

BurnerD
02-09-2012, 08:40 AM
Why not release a new unique named item with a ridiculously low drop rate? and maybe from only one location.... a challenger for the SOS so to speak....

Call is superior vorpal effect. Raise the HP barrier way up or make it like the original effect.

I agree that vorpals are way too common at this point to have the original effect. It is sad that "vorpal" has become vendor trash though....

another option would be: revert vorpal to original effect. Reduce durability of item. Once vorpal weapon hits a certain amount of permanent damage it loses it's vorpal characteristic. Weapons with vorpal should not be bindable in the stone of change. This would give the weapons a limited life and reduce the number in play.

grodon9999
02-09-2012, 08:44 AM
The reason they nerfed vorpals is 'cause they were the only thing the majority of players were using for hyper-inflated HP mobs. Since they seem to think that making every trash encounter a tank-n-spank is "challenging content", they had to do something.


But nerfing vorpals . . . at the same time you remove deatward from mobs in epic, TOR, and Reavers Refuge . . . as well as give casters over-powered DOTs that mean a melee isn't even needed anymore for red-named DPS . . . is a double-kick in the nuggets for melees.

somenewnoob
02-09-2012, 08:46 AM
But nerfing vorpals . . . at the same time you remove deatward from mobs in epic, TOR, and Reavers Refuge . . . as well as give casters over-powered DOTs that mean a melee isn't even needed anymore for red-named DPS . . . is a double-kick in the nuggets for melees.

How long have you been playing? You should know to wear a cup for nugget protection by now! :p

voodoogroves
02-09-2012, 10:20 AM
Devestating Critical is an epic feat. I wouldn't mind it forcing a save on any crit over a certain clip level of damage.

I wouldn't mind seeing ...
- Vorpals renamed "Sharpness" with current limit)
- Real vorpals (no limit, named items or very rare loot drops) added
- Coup de grace action, only affects helpless and forces fort-save

ArcaneMelee
02-09-2012, 10:36 AM
But nerfing vorpals . . . at the same time you remove deatward from mobs in epic, TOR, and Reavers Refuge . . . as well as give casters over-powered DOTs that mean a melee isn't even needed anymore for red-named DPS . . . is a double-kick in the nuggets for melees.

Aye, the only explanation that I can give is that the decision makers at Turbine are either...

1. Consulting a Magic 8-ball
2. Feeding off forum drama.

Either way, expect the pendulum to swing the other way, completely bypassing the middle-ground. The only question is this - do we have to wait another 4 years for casters to be reduced to a limit-one-per-raid again?

Have we even gotten past this limit-one-per-raid in the majority of PUGs yet?

grodon9999
02-09-2012, 10:39 AM
Have we even gotten past this limit-one-per-raid in the majority of PUGs yet?.

What stupid people do in their raids doesn't matter because they are stupid.

It only matters what smart/informed players do.

ArcaneMelee
02-09-2012, 10:41 AM
.

What stupid people do in their raids doesn't matter because they are stupid.

It only matters what smart/informed players do.

Wouldn't that be nice. Unfortunately, the "uninformed" people outnumber the "informed"... guess which group Turbine is changing the game for?

grodon9999
02-09-2012, 10:49 AM
Wouldn't that be nice. Unfortunately, the "uninformed" people outnumber the "informed"... guess which group Turbine is changing the game for?

Do you have a good guild or access to raiding channels?

If not set up your own groups.

Krago
02-09-2012, 11:01 AM
The vorpals need to come back into play or they need to raise the damage done on crits to a much higher lvl.

Grailhawk
02-09-2012, 11:55 AM
Personally I think Vorpal should be changed to do 2d6 Bane damage per hit with a Finger of Death proc on a 20 DC 35.

Battlehawke
02-09-2012, 12:02 PM
As much as I hate to agree with Junk, I agree. It made absolutely no sense to nerf vorpals during the spell pass change while they were making casters better with their DOTS. And helping to improve their DC's, all while making mobs more vulnerable to casters instant kills.

Rodasch
02-09-2012, 06:12 PM
As long as Terror and Tharaak wraps exist, there is no reason to not un-nerf vorpal. Terror and wraps go off much more often than vorpals do, and they kill no matter how many hp the mob has.

Un-nerf vorpal now. Thanks.

ferrite
02-09-2012, 06:34 PM
Though I tend to play caster type builds with FOD, I tend to agree vorpal in its current state is largely useless, so..

/signed

including all incarnations thereof, like smiting, banishing, and disrupting. All need to be reverted back to their original functionality described in the SRD or player's handbook.

Ralmeth
02-09-2012, 10:54 PM
Because low ML vorpals are easy to come by and removing the HP cap would make vorpals the go to weapon in epics, I think there should be tiers of vorpals. The tiers could be tied to the ML or the + of the weapon, with the higher the tier the higher the HP cap would be.

Meetch1972
02-09-2012, 11:02 PM
/signed on principle, but to be tuned.

Numbers are being thrown around. As a starting point, I'd suggest 1000hp damage to any mob with > 5000 hp, instant death if they have <=5000. Now Turbine, let's negotiate... :D

Banish/Smite/Disrupt should be lesser than vorpal, possibly even kept at what they are now while vorpal gets a boost, 'cos at least they do extra damage.

Krago
02-10-2012, 12:39 PM
Because low ML vorpals are easy to come by and removing the HP cap would make vorpals the go to weapon in epics, I think there should be tiers of vorpals. The tiers could be tied to the ML or the + of the weapon, with the higher the tier the higher the HP cap would be.

In Epic quests, it doesnt matter the ML of the weapon, since you have to be lvl 20 to run an Epic, so the Vorpal would be the highest Tier anyway on your system.

DavionFuxa
02-10-2012, 11:12 PM
In some sense I like what they have done with, Banishers, Disruptors, Smiters in that they can be quite effective and deadly for the casual player playing quests on Normal difficulty. However, on the other hand, since even a casual player can have access to better DPS weapons through crafting in House C, Easy Epics, or forming Greensteel or Alchemical, and mobs start to get 1000 hit poitns or more quite easily later on, the use of the weapon is shortlived.

When I first started playing the game, Vorpals were like the holy grail of items. They were awesome and the lower the Minimum Level of the Weapon, the better. Time's have of coursed changed but I think the Vorpal weapon should be a 'coveted' weapon, and it should be 'an instant killer'. I wouldn't be against renaming all Vorpal weapons in game to Sharpness as one of the other posters suggested, and then creating 'New' Vorpal Weapons that followed the old line of thinking - just on weapons that were far more powerful or harder to find.

Vengeance777
02-10-2012, 11:17 PM
/signed

My casters can go into any content and power word kill, circle of death, phantasmal killer, finger of death and wail instantly killing mobs. The Vorpal nerf no longer makes sense.

Even a raid party of 12 melees swinging vorpals hoping for a 20 won't be able to kill epic mobs faster than a Pale Master cycling instakill spells. The pre-nerf Vorpal is no longer overpowered and should be reinstated.

licho
02-11-2012, 02:28 AM
Simply raise the cap for vorpals and other slay weapons to 2500HP.
Problem solved.

Also voodoogroves idea is nice of making sharpnes which will be meh, and adding real vorpal.
But then again, how much stuff which dont work and nobody cares about we need in game? Maybe rather than multiply beings just make exiting working.

And as we start talking about weapons...
- can we make status change weapons effect dc scale with BAB (like paralyzers have higher dc when we moved to higher content)
- can stat dmg be made more useful, for example helpless state can stay longer.

cdbd3rd
02-11-2012, 02:57 AM
I don't know whether the limit needs to be removed . . . but it needs to be raised. 1000 HP is too low, 3000 HP feels about right.

That's heading the right direction, I think.

Along with a base damage of some sort because the blade is so wanting to slice through whatever it's hitting.


The nerf to the Power 5™ did seem pretty heavy-handed. Time to loosen the screws on them just a bit.

ferrite
02-11-2012, 03:15 AM
and I'd also like to see a return to things like auto-crit from paralyzing or helpless effects et al, and con weapons reinstated to do what they are supposed to do, which is kill anything outright when its con reaches zero (which of course should apply to players as well) Really.

Some of these changes were made long ago for 'balance purposes', but with introduction of crafting and the influx of new and powerful weapons, and new epics, there are so many better and faster ways to kill a mob now that it no longer makes sense to deter these styles of play anymore. The original functionality should be restored to what was intended, even encouraged for differing styles of play.

Only after *very* careful consideration should the rules ever be altered from the manual for things like vorpal, helpless effects, stat drain effects and the like. It was probably OK to suppress these effects for awhile for temporary balancing, but such changes should never be permanent. Its time to revisit all these changes once again, and question whether they are really needed.

Beethoven
02-11-2012, 06:16 AM
My casters can go into any content and power word kill, circle of death, phantasmal killer, finger of death and wail instantly killing mobs. The Vorpal nerf no longer makes sense.

Well, in all fairness you cannot just take a caster (any caster) into epics and insta-kill to your hearts content. You need at least a semi-decent build, gear (which isn't quite as trivial as some people like make it out) to boost your DC and get some HP on the toon. There are also a few epics where it pays to invest some into Spell Pen.

The problem with Vorpals was that all it requires is the ability to roll a 20 on a d20, which any toon can do no matter how badly built and undergeared. The sole other contributing factor was attack speed. Part of the dev argument was that unlike insta-kills (and to a lesser extend now PK weapons) Vorpals not only have unlimited charges (you never run out of swings) but also do not allow for a save. So, I can understand something needed to give to prevent Vorpals to become the one and only epic trash beater across the board. I just think they went too far.


Personally I think Vorpal should be changed to do 2d6 Bane damage per hit with a Finger of Death proc on a 20 DC 35.

That actually would be also my prefered solution. It's also open up new options by allowing for various versions of Vorpal with different DCs (ie: make Vorpal a DC 25, Greater Vorpal DC 35 and Epic Vorpal DC 42).

hit_fido
02-11-2012, 09:39 AM
Easy fix that makes all vorpals more relevant than they are today but leaves only +5 vorpals behaving exactly like they did before:

+1 vorpal = remove 20% of mob's full hp from their current hp, or 100 damage, whichever greater
+2 vorpal = remove 40% of mob's full hp from their current hp, or 100 damage, whichever greater
...
+5 vorpal = remove 100% of mob's full hp from their current hp, i.e. insta-kill

Procs only on natural 20 with confirmed critical as before.

Only a +5 vorpal weapon would work like the old scheme and such "power" would remain relatively rare and prized. Against very tough, high hp foes, lesser vorpals may outright kill them but only if they'd already sustained some damage. For example a 5000 hp mob is attacked, reduced to 4100 hp when the +4 vorpal procs, after which the mob now has only 100 hp left (4100 less 80% of it's full hp of 5000). If the mob were reduced to 3900 hp before the vorpal proc, then it would indeed be an insta-kill.

Terebinthia
02-11-2012, 11:53 AM
/signed.

I use my Cove Smimmies on my pure Soul - they are fab when soloing Weapons Shipment and generally good in Amrath. But she's not melee DPS in any traditional sense, they are more a SP conservation tool than anything.

It would be nice for them to be actually useful to more builds rather than a niche weapon. I like the idea of the untyped damage at least.

bhgiant
02-11-2012, 12:52 PM
I agree. As someone who uses vorpal all of the time (I'm a 20 rogue Assassin III with a Ring of the Stalker) I can definitely say with confidence that vorpal needs a change. I barely notice it. If you can fit it in, it's a definite boost to dps, but the cap needs to be raised. I think at 2000 hp it would become noticeable. 3000 would be nice but I think it may be overkill. I vote to do the same for the smiters, distruptors, and banishers and take off the 4d6 extra damage.

The FoD proc on a n20 with a 35DC is interesting but I think a raise to the cap would be a much easier solution and therefor preferred.

in other words /signed

macubrae
02-11-2012, 02:20 PM
A vorpal confirmed with another 20 works like it used to against non-purple/reds.

If less then 1000HP, a confirmed vorpal kills.

If more then 1000HP, a confirmed vorpal does 10% of HP damage. Against an enemy with 1001HP it would do 100 damage, 2000HP/200dmg, 5000HP/500dmg, etc, etc...

As the fight goes on each vorpal will do less damage then the previous, until the enemy is under 1000HP. Even if you are on a crit-streak, chances are that some people will never see a double 20 insta-kill. But if it happens at the right moment, it'll be a high5 occasion.

That's my 2cp

Rodasch
02-11-2012, 06:00 PM
Because low ML vorpals are easy to come by and removing the HP cap would make vorpals the go to weapon in epics, I think there should be tiers of vorpals. The tiers could be tied to the ML or the + of the weapon, with the higher the tier the higher the HP cap would be.

What's the difference between vorpals in epics and every melee weilding terror or tharaak wraps? The difference is vorpal goes off less. So you can't use "the go to weapon in epics" argument, it rings hollow.

R0cksteady
02-11-2012, 06:45 PM
Naw, keep melees useless! A couple years ago it was annoying how I'd have to choose between characters. Now I can just leave my Melees on a shelf and play my casters and Divines.

It sucks to see all that wasted epic gear and TR lives on my melees, but hey, I have less to think about when I log on and can just pass by the useless melees.

Talias006
02-11-2012, 07:18 PM
Naw, keep melees useless! A couple years ago it was annoying how I'd have to choose between characters. Now I can just leave my Melees on a shelf and play my casters and Divines.

It sucks to see all that wasted epic gear and TR lives on my melees, but hey, I have less to think about when I log on and can just pass by the useless melees.

Either this response is close to the reason why we need a melee pass....
Or, I failed my Sarcasm Check (DC: OMG!) :rolleyes:

R0cksteady
02-11-2012, 07:41 PM
Either this response is close to the reason why we need a melee pass....
Or, I failed my Sarcasm Check (DC: OMG!) :rolleyes:

Melee pass? What more do we want for Melees?

I mean already they have the ability to distract enemies while casters kill them, and take up divine SP so they can't use their full potential in battles. What more can we ask for?

Talias006
02-11-2012, 07:50 PM
Trying to keep from laughing to myself while reading your posts is increasingly difficult.

Maybe, have them be more than a sponge for Divine's SP and a stalling tactic for Arcane's killing stroke?

What form would this take?

I'm not entirely certain I want to figure something out that will most likely cause me to lol later.

fco-karatekid
02-11-2012, 08:36 PM
What is that? I'm a 2nd edition player.

Coup de grac would work to, give it like a 15 second cooldown where you can wind-up a big swing on a helpless target that'll give you a very high chance of a one-shot. The cooldown will prevent from being over-powered.

And that 'no opportunity cost" garbage is exactly that . . . garbage. There are more than enough shrines in 99% of the quests to never need to worry about running out of SP.

Why 15 secs or 30 secs. I think it needs to be like my ranger's manyshot that everyone thinks it just fine - 2 minute cooldown. Good for the goose...

fco-karatekid
02-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Naw, keep melees useless! A couple years ago it was annoying how I'd have to choose between characters. Now I can just leave my Melees on a shelf and play my casters and Divines.

It sucks to see all that wasted epic gear and TR lives on my melees, but hey, I have less to think about when I log on and can just pass by the useless melees.

I almost agree with this one - exception being my monk builds - those are an absolute blast. With any other melee, however, I totally agree.

voodoogroves
02-11-2012, 09:33 PM
Why 15 secs or 30 secs. I think it needs to be like my ranger's manyshot that everyone thinks it just fine - 2 minute cooldown. Good for the goose...

In PNP you can use it every round.

A common 3.5 power gamer option for a low-level cleric was the combination of Hold Person one round, and a Scythe w/ Coup de Grace next (or by the other party members). Auto-hit, auto-critical on a x4 multiplier weapon ... no proficiency necessary ... tasty cheese.

Sidewaysgts86
02-11-2012, 09:38 PM
Heck id be happy to have vorpal drop off x% of a mobs *Current* hp. This imo would keep vorpal a powerful tool against trash mobs with ridiculously high hp, while still giving us a reason to pull out our higher "dps" weapons.

~Quilny
02-13-2012, 04:10 AM
with the increase to the DC of terror, and the monk wraps working just fine on 1k+ hp people, please UnNerf Vorpal. it's not over powered, it's not faster than a Finger of death/wail/power word kill/etc.

more often than not, most trash mobs are dps downed long before vorpal hits currently, it's an absolute waste. pending that is if melee even get in range to hit the mob due to finger, wail, implosion, destruction, power word kill, etc etc.

I ran epic Devil's assault earlier tonight on my ranger, 2 PM's in the group so it often looked like (at least to me) that my weapons were casting finger of death anytime I got close to a mob.

Casters get a no cap insta kill effect, why can't melee?

I used to /sign posts like this because I felt bad for melee however now have done serveral melee lives and DANG they are OP high DR and AC and HP UMD to self heal CRAZY op and no Blue bar to worry about. Casters have limited dps melee unlimited. Having said all that it takes skill to play casters so i still feel bad for melees:D

/signed ;)

FuzzyDuck81
02-13-2012, 04:28 AM
/signed

Vorpals used to be great, now they're ok but nothing all that special. My suggestion would be to have vorpal weapons do either 2d6 slicing/bleeding damage on every hit (putting it on a level with vicious but without the drawback of self-harming), OR (if possible) make it expand the crit range by 1, eg a vorpal greatsword would now crit on 18-20 or 16-20 with imp crit. Either would add a nice boost to the effect as well as keepin with the flavour of vorpal weapons being super-duper sharp.

Ninety
02-14-2012, 11:16 AM
Many great suggestions here, turbine care to voice an opinion?

kilagan800
02-14-2012, 03:44 PM
I just bought my first vorpal weapon for a melee alt -- it's my first because I'm always playing those pesky palemasters, and I agree with the op. I would like to see it create more damage and even a special effect would be nice to see.

Also, the description says it can chop off an enemy's head, (if it has a body). That'll be a great finishing move. I realize turbine would have to come up with all new animations. If not, then why even add that little tid-bit in the description in the first place?

Talias006
02-14-2012, 04:37 PM
Animation-wise, there is already an effect that happens whenever the vorpal goes off.

Unfortunately, Vorpal shares the bluish glowing with Destruction and Improved Destruction effects.

kilagan800
02-14-2012, 05:16 PM
Animation-wise, there is already an effect that happens whenever the vorpal goes off.

Unfortunately, Vorpal shares the bluish glowing with Destruction and Improved Destruction effects.

Ahh, must not have noticed.

It's my understanding that vorpal and destruction are the same. Doesn't the description for destruction weapons say that they have a vorpal effect?

Talias006
02-14-2012, 05:52 PM
Nope, Destruction weapons are more akin to Sunder being put into a weapon effect.

You can take off 1 AC and 1% fortification per hit, up to 4 AC and 4% fortification on Destruction weapons.

With Improved Destruction weapons it's 2 AC and 2% fortification per hit, and up to 8 AC and 8% fortification.

The Destruction spell, is a kill effect like vorpal, though.

edit: Some clarification links.

Destruction as weapon enhancement (http://ddowiki.com/page/Destruction_(enchantment))

Destruction as Spell (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Destruction)

dng242
02-15-2012, 05:55 AM
[QUOTE=Avidus idea would amazing. adding a 4d6 damage untyped/bane damage would be nice.[/QUOTE]

I would go with the higher threashold (e.g. 5000 hp or whatever) that would make a viable, but different choice from the others.

Sgt_Hart
02-20-2012, 05:21 PM
Isn't it time to kindly take vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal)'s dangly bits out of the jar, and give it back to vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal)?

Honestly, the Nonsense about Under X many hit points needs to go.



Must have a head / be susceptible to decapitation.
Must roll a Natural 20
Must confirm critical (Roll another 1d20 and be within critical range values)
Must have under 1K HP (This is Turbines invention.)

Really?



Must be driving a car.
Must be exceeding 35 MPH
Must hit intended victim.
Must fishtail and hit intended victim with the rear quarterpanels only?

Am I nut's, or is this Nonsense?




I understand the intent to make it behave like all those other special On-a-20 effects.. but unlike banishing, Smiting, Disruption, ect... Vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal) Does Not Deal Additional Damage On Every Hit.


Come on turbine, Vorpal shouldn't be a Eunuch.

Chai
02-20-2012, 05:39 PM
We need some old 3.0E epic feats in the game that melee can build for that put them on par with casters. No need to reinvent the wheel here folks - they already exist and would just need to be adjusted to fit DDO.

Devistating critical. On crit save or die. DC = attack roll -vs- mobs discipline check. I played on a NWN server that nerfed this feat to "knockdown + blind + deaf" for a number of rounds.

Epic dodge. First attack in each round that would have landed is ignored - /automiss.

Divine Shield. Up to 20 points of dodge AC. Cleric / paladin / divine champion (champion of torm etc) feat.

The requirements on most of these were crazy. They would have to be adjusted as well to fit into the numerical DDO balance scale.

The list goes on.

Chai
02-20-2012, 05:46 PM
Isn't it time to kindly take vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal)'s dangly bits out of the jar, and give it back to vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal)?

Honestly, the Nonsense about Under X many hit points needs to go.



Must have a head / be susceptible to decapitation.
Must roll a Natural 20
Must confirm critical (Roll another 1d20 and be within critical range values)
Must have under 1K HP (This is Turbines invention.)

Really?



Must be driving a car.
Must be exceeding 35 MPH
Must hit intended victim.
Must fishtail and hit intended victim with the rear quarterpanels only?

Am I nut's, or is this Nonsense?




I understand the intent to make it behave like all those other special On-a-20 effects.. but unlike banishing, Smiting, Disruption, ect... Vorpal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vorpal) Does Not Deal Additional Damage On Every Hit.


Come on turbine, Vorpal shouldn't be a Eunuch.

It shouldnt be the John Holmes easy button of epics either.

They should raise the HP cap, but not make it unlimited. No-opportunity-cost insta kill is too powerful.

QuantumFX
02-20-2012, 05:55 PM
I’d personally like to see the damage proc kicked up to 500 damage. It would make vorpals a good stepping stone to stuff like Lightning and Disentegrate weapons.

Sgt_Hart
02-20-2012, 06:01 PM
I'd agree on that. Maybe 5K or 6K at end game levels?

Not that 1K HP means nothing, but that means the 4 Melee's in there beating it all have to hit it twice at epic levels, instead of letting vorpal guy hit it.. well.. 1 time in 20, and not even that due to confirm crit?

Still at low level's that'd be.. insane as well..

Maybe make it a function of the wielder level?

Player_Level * 250 or some such
Beginning at 10 for teh sake of reasonability
12: 3K
14: 3500
16: 4K
18: 4500
20: 5K

OK, so fantastical trash beater when it proc's, but bit high at low levels. try different math?

(pl-10) * 500

12: 1K
14: 2K
16: 3K
18: 4K
20: 5K

That works a lot better IMO as a "Must be below" Value 'eh?

Sidewaysgts86
02-21-2012, 12:02 AM
I still prefer the idea of having the weapons enhancement value tieing into the hp-limit of vorpal. +1s work <1000 hp, +2 work on mobs with <2000 hp, +3 is 3000 hp, etc and etc.

Robai
02-21-2012, 01:02 PM
Currently Vorpal works this way (if enemy is not immune to Vorpal):
1000 dmg if enemy HP <= 1000
100 dmg if enemy HP > 1000

It would be a lot more useful if it would be the opposite:
100 dmg if enemy HP <= 1000
1000 dmg if enemy HP > 1000

Or better, just always do 1000 dmg on Vorpal.

But the name of Vorpal should be related to instakill no matter how much HP enemy has.
So only the chance of that instakill should be discussed IMHO.

Now, Vorpal happens when
you roll 20 (5% chance)
and
you confirm critical hit, i.e. roll d20 again and your_Att + d20 > enemy_AC

It means that:
if your_Att - enemy_AC >= 0 then you Vorpal 5% of time (= 1 of 20 hits)
if your_Att - enemy_AC = -1 then you Vorpal 0.05*(19/20) = 4.75% of time (= 19 of 400 hits)
if your_Att - enemy_AC = -2 then you Vorpal 0.05*(18/20) = 4.5% of time (= 18 of 400 hits)
...
if your_Att - enemy_AC = -18 then you Vorpal 0.05*(2/20) = 0.5% of time (= 2 of 400 hits)
if your_Att - enemy_AC <= -19 then you Vorpal 0.05*(1/20) = 0.25% of time (= 1 of 400 hits)


I don't think that Vorpal's instakill effect is overpowered.
For low Attack players Vorpals are absolutely useless (only once per 400 hits = useless). But if developers think that Vorpal is overpowered then some important enemy mobs could get some AC bonus against Vorpals.
I wouldn't mind if Red-named monsters (not purple-named though) would be possible to Vorpal (just give them good AC bonus against Vorpals, all Raid bosses are purple-named anyway, so why not?).

So, please remove that 1000 hp cap and make Vorpals actually useful.

EDIT:
I think that Vorpals are never confirmed if you have too low attack (even if you roll 20).
So the last two lines should be these:
if your_Att - enemy_AC = -19 then you Vorpal 0.05*(1/20) = 0.25% of time (= 1 of 400 hits)
if your_Att - enemy_AC <= -20 then you never Vorpal

Chai
02-21-2012, 03:13 PM
Turbine made their own bed on this issue by allowing vorpal weapons to become as common as they did.

What they should have done, as well as what they can still do, is eliminate all loot gen vorpals from the game, then create a few specific epic items that have the effect, uncapped.

It doesnt bother me that melee can run around with vorpals and insta kill stuff on 5% of all attacks if the weapon is a special weapon that has to be obtained through epic means, and not just some loot gen end reward for every third gianthold quest and later.

The fact that everyone has them is what makes it OP if anything. Vorpal is a classic powerful weapon, and handing them out like nickel candy is what ruined it.

Krago
02-21-2012, 03:20 PM
Turbine made their own bed on this issue by allowing vorpal weapons to become as common as they did.

What they should have done, as well as what they can still do, is eliminate all loot gen vorpals from the game, then create a few specific epic items that have the effect, uncapped.

It doesnt bother me that melee can run around with vorpals and insta kill stuff on 5% of all attacks if the weapon is a special weapon that has to be obtained through epic means, and not just some loot gen end reward for every third gianthold quest and later.

The fact that everyone has them is what makes it OP if anything. Vorpal is a classic powerful weapon, and handing them out like nickel candy is what ruined it.

True, when casters did not have AoE insta-killers, where it was point and shoot with their spells. Now that death can be handed out to the masses by one click, the melees can dust off their vorpals and return to business.

ArcaneMelee
02-21-2012, 03:45 PM
...No-opportunity-cost insta kill is too powerful.

Vorpals do have an opportunity-cost... you've got to be in range of their melee attacks in order to get the opportunity. Well, except for those folks with a vorpal returning shuriken, but I've not heard anyone claim that returning shurikens are OP.

On the other hand, casters are allowed greatly-reduced-opportunity-cost insta kills.

Chai
02-21-2012, 04:23 PM
True, when casters did not have AoE insta-killers, where it was point and shoot with their spells. Now that death can be handed out to the masses by one click, the melees can dust off their vorpals and return to business.

There is a huge difference, which is why I suggested the feat Devistating Critical earlier on.

Casters have "opportunity cost" instant death. Vorpals are not opportunity cost. They require absolutely no investment whatsoever and they are as plentiful as masterwork clubs.

Melee shoulod be able to invest in devistating critical, which is a save or die on crit effect, and also an epic feat in 3.xE - has a DC and can be saved against etc. If they made this an "on nat20" effect and gave melee the ability to build for a DC that was worth it, many would do so and we could have some sense of game balance.

Casters are OP but not as OP as the exagerators on the forums claim they are. They do have to build to get a good DC to do the tough content, and some of the easier content has mobs like drow which have a gazillion SR. The solution to this issue is not to allow melee to insta kill 95% of all epic trash with absolutely no investment whatsoever.

This is why I think having them qualify for and then take devistating critical is the better answer. Having melee invest for having the same type of power casters have is the answer. As I stated before this wouldnt be an issue if turbine didnt put vorpal in the loot gen tables and make them drop like rain for 4 years now. If it was a special weapon like its supposed to be and required some sort of questing or epic crafting to make, it wouldnt be an issue.

Chai
02-21-2012, 04:32 PM
Vorpals do have an opportunity-cost... you've got to be in range of their melee attacks in order to get the opportunity. Well, except for those folks with a vorpal returning shuriken, but I've not heard anyone claim that returning shurikens are OP.

On the other hand, casters are allowed greatly-reduced-opportunity-cost insta kills.

Where they have to be in range in order to wail a bunch of mobs at the same time you mean?

We both know how uncompelling that statement is in either example. If melee could just vorp every epic trash mob, they would sans issue and this game would become so easy....oh wait, it already is - yet we still have to complain about how its somewhat easier for some than it is for others. :p

The devistating critical feat is the answer to this power dilema we are in. Melee can qualify for it and take it by spending feats just like casters do, then instakill 95% of all epic trash just like casters do.

On the other hand...

If they allow uncapped vorpal in all content, ill just slot my necro with them as well. I dont need to hit on a 1-19. I need to have a huge seeker so when i do roll that 20 I confirm the crit and kill the mob. Then I will have ALL my mana left for the boss rather than just some. My 10 str caster will be just as powerful as your 80 str barbarian in epics for all trash and 10 times as powerful on the bosses - for far less of a cost as there is now. He will be MORE powerful than any THF toon simply due to attack rate - no need to proc damage anymore, its either a deathblow or it isnt.

ThePrincipal
02-21-2012, 04:39 PM
removal the vorpal affect from random gen weapons, give the vorpal affect a save vs fort with a reasonable DC like 35 but make it proc on a crit not 20 and i think we have a winner

Chai
02-21-2012, 04:46 PM
removal the vorpal affect from random gen weapons, give the vorpal affect a save vs fort with a reasonable DC like 35 but make it proc on a crit not 20 and i think we have a winner

You basically just described Terror - which procs a 36 DC phantasmal killer on crit. It gets epic mobs once in a while.

ThePrincipal
02-21-2012, 04:56 PM
Yes. I think it's a fair implementation of an insta-kill mechanic.

If you really like the no save kills, lower the proc. 5% is too much. Lower it from proc on a 20, to 2% of any hit.

Krago
02-21-2012, 10:20 PM
There is a huge difference, which is why I suggested the feat Devistating Critical earlier on.

Casters have "opportunity cost" instant death. Vorpals are not opportunity cost. They require absolutely no investment whatsoever and they are as plentiful as masterwork clubs.

Melee shoulod be able to invest in devistating critical, which is a save or die on crit effect, and also an epic feat in 3.xE - has a DC and can be saved against etc. If they made this an "on nat20" effect and gave melee the ability to build for a DC that was worth it, many would do so and we could have some sense of game balance.

Casters are OP but not as OP as the exagerators on the forums claim they are. They do have to build to get a good DC to do the tough content, and some of the easier content has mobs like drow which have a gazillion SR. The solution to this issue is not to allow melee to insta kill 95% of all epic trash with absolutely no investment whatsoever.

This is why I think having them qualify for and then take devistating critical is the better answer. Having melee invest for having the same type of power casters have is the answer. As I stated before this wouldnt be an issue if turbine didnt put vorpal in the loot gen tables and make them drop like rain for 4 years now. If it was a special weapon like its supposed to be and required some sort of questing or epic crafting to make, it wouldnt be an issue.

The difference between Casters and Melees, is that Casters will invest in it anyway, because its their primary focus. For Melees, its not their primary focus.

Meetch1972
02-21-2012, 10:56 PM
Alrighty, possible variations apart from adjusting the damage it does, what the HP cap is for instakill, and putting it back to how it used to be. These would all be possibles for when vorpal doesn't instakill for whatever silly reason. Pick any one (or none) of the below...

1. Apply a debuff. If the mob is going to flash blue, why not slap Improved Destruction and Improved Sunder on it at the same time.
2. If it's about blade sharpness, have each vorpal strike perform additional maiming damage (some mobs immune).
3. Bonus untyped damage to mobs not auto-immune to the vorpal effect on each swing, like the bonus damage from smiting, banishing and disruption.
4. A brief debuff which renders the mob susceptible to auto-crits.
5. If you roll a 20 and confirm the crit, then roll and confirm a crit on the next swing with that weapon, then it dies.

Meh, whatever. Just seeing if anything sticks 'cos anything's better than the way vorpal works at the moment. I also wouldn't mind seeing the abundance of vorpal weapons dealt with, as others have stated.

justagame
02-21-2012, 11:01 PM
The difference between Casters and Melees, is that Casters will invest in it anyway, because its their primary focus. For Melees, its not their primary focus.

I think you might be missing the point of the term "opportunity cost." It's not an investment in an ability, it's the expenditure of something that could have otherwise have been used for something else. You expend spell points, and the time it takes to cast, to try to instakill. If you fail, that's time and sp that could have done something else.

With a vorpal, you swing, swing, swing. You keep doing damage. Your str bonus, weapon spec feats, favored enemy, divine favor, rage bonus, what have you, all keep hurting the bad guys the whole time. Only, on 1 of every 20 swings, they die. You didn't have to stop what you were doing, and do something different, something that required some other expenditure of a finite resource.

Now, having said that, I'd be in favor of scaling up the limit a little but, to reflect current endgame. Is 3k reasonable? Or something that scales based on the weapon bonus? I don't know. But taking away the limit entirely would be too much, IMO, given how incredibly common vorpals are in the game.

I am intrigued by the idea of renaming all lootgen vorpals "sharpness", and keeping the effect as-is, but reserving an epic-like vorpal effect (that is found only on certain very rare weapons) that has a higher level, or some other more potent vorpal-type effect.

Krago
02-22-2012, 09:19 AM
I think you might be missing the point of the term "opportunity cost." It's not an investment in an ability, it's the expenditure of something that could have otherwise have been used for something else. You expend spell points, and the time it takes to cast, to try to instakill. If you fail, that's time and sp that could have done something else.

With a vorpal, you swing, swing, swing. You keep doing damage. Your str bonus, weapon spec feats, favored enemy, divine favor, rage bonus, what have you, all keep hurting the bad guys the whole time. Only, on 1 of every 20 swings, they die. You didn't have to stop what you were doing, and do something different, something that required some other expenditure of a finite resource.

Now, having said that, I'd be in favor of scaling up the limit a little but, to reflect current endgame. Is 3k reasonable? Or something that scales based on the weapon bonus? I don't know. But taking away the limit entirely would be too much, IMO, given how incredibly common vorpals are in the game.

I am intrigued by the idea of renaming all lootgen vorpals "sharpness", and keeping the effect as-is, but reserving an epic-like vorpal effect (that is found only on certain very rare weapons) that has a higher level, or some other more potent vorpal-type effect.

You still give up DPS to try and vorpal. And depending upon the weapon you give up, it could be significant DPS.

ArcaneMelee
02-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Where they have to be in range in order to wail a bunch of mobs at the same time you mean?
...

Actually, I was thinking about Finger of Death. The timer on Wail is too long for me to consider kiting a Congo line of mobs. I haven't checked the max range of Wail (was going to do it last night, but the wife interfered), but I'll bet you could do it if you were patient enough.

I suppose that running Epics with dedicated healers spamming Mass Heal for 50-60 spell points to cap everyone's health would make it feel like vorpals have no "opportunity costs", but try it mano-a-mano.


You still give up DPS to try and vorpal. And depending upon the weapon you give up, it could be significant DPS.

Exactly - when the cap was 16, my deeply-splashed battle casters frequently sheathed the vorpals in favor of DPS weapons. When you kill a mob in less than 20 swings with straight DPS, it simply isn't efficient to use vorpals. And I know that my toons aren't competitors with the real DPS.

The problem is Turbine's "More-HP-More-Challenge" mindset. I still don't understand why it's OK to kill a mob in 2-3 swings at lower levels, but for some reason need 20-30 at higher.

Sgt_Hart
02-22-2012, 04:37 PM
When push comes to shove, I think the real issue with Vorpal is the cap, and lack of adequate Bonus damage. Either individually are fine, but both examine together, makes it a waste of a property.

Bear with me here.. Which should be more useful in Vale?
Vorpal(Decapitates Everything) or Banishing(Devils+fiend-blooded only)?

You'd think the whole "heads will roll" would be a natural choice, but the Bonus damage per hit makes vorpal collect dust in the backpack.

As to +# = #K HP... I take one single issue with that notion. The amount of "+1 vorpal scimitar of Vertigo +8" the loot gen spit's out, with a min level of 16. I'm all for more-rare vorpal. However I'd still urge for Items Min level, not Enhancement Bonus, due to how many gimp items the loot gen spits out.

Ninety
02-25-2012, 10:50 PM
So... how about some untyped bane damage Devs?

Zorth
02-26-2012, 12:04 AM
What is the 1000 hp based on? Answer is Strength or the feat the makes Dex use Dex instead of Str. Or am I wrong, if I am wrong then what is it based on. Even if I am wrong then what I say now still apllies to some ability other than Str or Dex, But I am going to use these two abilities as examples:

For example: A 8 str halfling should kill anything with less than 1000hp/ not undead and does not have Deathward on it.

But to be more realistic a level so and so Barbarian with a Strength of 70 should be able to Vorpal a monster with more than 1000 hp just because his or her Strength is so high and so on.

The Vorpal needs to be re-examined based on Strength of a Character. The higher the threshold of 20 Strength is a good start,( Just and Idea, hear me out) It adds .005 percent per ability point above 20 Str or Dex (Dex if the feat). So a 70 str charcter would add 50 points of Str chance beyond the current roll of 20 to make it a roll of 17.5 to Vorpal or an 18 since 17.5 is impossible. This is the math of it. this is just my thoughts. Thank you.
Edit note: I was wrong on my math, I change the .015 to .005

Invalid_50
02-26-2012, 02:20 AM
vorpal is lost...

they still have broccoli in the splash screen.

Talias006
02-26-2012, 07:13 PM
Zorth, I read your proposal, and I disagree with that line of reason.

It isn't the muscles behind the blade that makes it lop off heads, it's the enchantments on the blade itself.
I would rather they didn't turn Vorpal into the new Power Attack.

How else do you think Alice beheaded the Jabberwocky on Fraptious Day?