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Komitulek
02-07-2012, 02:27 AM
True Neutral Drow Sorcerer
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 2119

BAB: 10/10/15/20
Fortitude: 9 Reflex: 6 Will: 23

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 8 10 10
Dexterity 10 10 10
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 12 14 14
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 20 29 32

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 0 6 6
Bluff 5 12 12
Concentration 6 26 30
Diplomacy 7 22 22
Haggle 7 22 22
Tumble n/a 1 1

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (1): Acid Spray
Spell (1): Niac's Cold Ray
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I

Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I

Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Deadly Ice I
Enhancement: Deadly FFlame I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation II
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation II

Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (2): Web
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II

Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I

Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II

Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (3): Fireball
Enhancement: Deadly Ice II
Enhancement: Deadly Flame II
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation III
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation III

Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III

Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Phantasmal Killer
Spell Swap: Acid Splash for Sonic Blast (for breakables)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II

Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (5): Hold Monster
Spell Swap: Hypnotism for Jump
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Spell (5): Cone of Cold
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting II

Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (6): Disintegrate
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
Enhancement: Deadly Ice III
Enhancement: Deadly Flame III

Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (4): Enervation
Spell (5): Break Enchantment
Spell (6): Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration III

Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (7): Finger of Death
Spell Swap: Phantasmal Killer for Fire Shield
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation IV

Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (5): Protection From Elements
Spell (6): Reconstruct
Spell (7): Waves of Exhaustion
Spell Swap: Protection From Energy for Knock
Enhancement: Deadly Ice IV
Enhancement: Deadly Flame IV
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation V
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation V

Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II

Level 17 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (7): Banishment
Spell (8): Incendiary Cloud
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Deadly Ice V
Enhancement: Deadly Flame V

Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation VI

Level 19 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Spell (8): Trap the Soul
Spell (9): Energy Drain
Spell Swap: Enervation for Ice Storm
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Deadly Ice VI
Enhancement: Deadly Flame VI
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation VII

Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (9): Mass Hold Monster
Enhancement: Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Enhancement: Glacial Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Combustive Spellcasting VI

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have left out Empower in favor of Maximize. Both are horribly mana inefficient, but when you need the burst damage maximize is more bang for the buck. Maximize at 9 since any earlier is just wasting an admittedly huge mana pool, but DDO is so easy below 9 that I don't see the necessity.

Not sure if I want Enlarge, Extend or Heighten at all so I have left them out for now, I can always look at a swap later.

Quicken I find meaningless with a decent amount of Concentration, we'll see if that bites me in the behind at any point.

So basically I have a very deeply entrenched Fire/Water with all SpPen except Greater in feats and enhancements, who can also be my vendor b**** with the high Cha and Haggle.

Have I done anything that is going to seriously cripple him? Any suggestions beyond 'get the metamagic feats you already said you don't want, because...' ?

TIA

grgurius
02-07-2012, 02:40 AM
First thing i noticed is that you are missing umd, on a fleshy sorc that's crippling enough, recommend that you switch skill points from diplomacy to umd. Second looks like you are planing on skipping the savants pre which might not be the smartest idea, maybe it would be better to specialize in one element, getting the savant pre with backup in secondary element that doesn't contradict your savant element.

AtomicMew
02-07-2012, 02:58 AM
There is A LOT of things very wrong with this build, and you won't be successful. The most glaring flaw, perhaps is that you don't even take a savant PrE.

There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

Here is a very classic (though sadly outdated) guide on playing a sorcerer: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175911. This guide is mostly outdated in terms of gear, new spells and the savant PrE, but it is still a goldmine of information for new players. Read it carefully if you want to understand the philosophy behind playing a successful sorcerer, athorough reading will put you miles ahead of the average pug sorcerer. This should be required reading for anyone looking to roll a sorcerer for the first time, honestly.


For a specific build, here is a basic outline for WF earth savant that is extremely solid for a first life: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4143145&postcount=13. Follow it and you will not go wrong. You can always change something on your next life when you gain more playing experience.

Dandonk
02-07-2012, 03:01 AM
Stats: Fine for a drow sorc.

Skills: You really want UMD, it's importance on a fleshy sorc cannot be overstated (as grgurius said). I would take balance, too, and get rid of haggle and diplo.

Feats: Toughness is good. FoP I wouldn't use a feat on, what with sorcs being feat starved. Spell pen comes at a very early level - few mobs have SR at that level.
I wouldn't take Greater Spell Pen and GSF: Evo. Empower and heighten are nearly a must on a sorc, and a SF: necro perhaps, to help necro DCs.

Enhancements: Again, as grgurius says, decide on a savant to go for, and an off-spec in another element. Savant benefits are huge - going without them can be done, but should be approached with caution.

Isharah
02-07-2012, 03:54 AM
Standard nuker-type build.

Stats
Start with max Cha and max Con. Dump remaining points wherever you wish (preferably strength for carrying capacity and avoiding being helpless).

Skills
Maximize Concentration and UMD. All else is gravy.

Feats
Try this:
Level 1 - Toughness
Level 3 - Empower
Level 6 - Maximize
Level 9 - Spell Focus: Evocation
Level 12 - Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Level 15 - Heighten Spell
Level 18 - Spell Penetration

Rationale:
- Don't take maximize at level 1. WHY: Low-level spells are very cheap. Much more efficient to recast them several times instead of casting a maximized version.
- By the time you turn level 6 (plus 1 rank), you want to have both empower and maximize. WHY: You will gain access to SLAs which can be empowered and maximized for free.
- You can actually opt to take heighten earlier if you wish to take on a CC role, and use web/deep slumber as your primary spell.
- Spell penetration can be replaced by Extend or a second spell focus depending on your preferred playstyle.

Enhancements
- Take a savant. Else, you wouldn't be capitalizing on the strengths of the sorcerer class. Water or air for end-game is a solid choice.
- Don't bother getting improved concentration -- with max ranks and a decent item set, you will have better use for all that AP.

MRMechMan
02-07-2012, 04:24 AM
Some major flaws in your build.

-Drow over human or warforged (human can have same DCs...but extra feat and skill, +3 con, more amp. WF get easy self healing, +6 con over drow. both OUTCLASS drow **braces self for incoming emo-drow hatred**)
-NOT taking empower (unjustifyable that a sorc is missing)
-NO savant pre (massive benefits, minor losses. just do some research and pick one)
-4 ranks improved concentration (near-useless)
-NO UMD (how else you gonna self heal? personally when on my healer I don't heal arcanes I don't know to teach them to make decent builds. sorcs get agro, and there won't always be some super-nice healer there to save your squishy drow arse.)
-all 3 spell pen enhancements (spell pen isn't important on a NUKING class)
-2 spell pen feats (same story. burning 12AP and 2 feats when you won't have the DCs anyway is a waste)
-NO heighten (incredibly useful for sorc SLAs)
-Force of personality (will saves are incredibly NOT worth burning a feat on)

So...yea, some stuff you need to fix. I hope someone with this little knowledge of the class doesn't burn a +4 cha tome on a butchered build.

Teharahma
02-07-2012, 04:28 AM
Ditch FoP for Empower, also consider dropping Greater evo focus for Quicken.
Also, seeing it's not a TR, you may want to postpone that +4 CHA tome till level 20, seeing as you wont get it at 15.

grgurius
02-07-2012, 04:34 AM
Ditch FoP for Empower, also consider dropping Greater evo focus for Quicken.
Also, seeing it's not a TR, you may want to postpone that +4 CHA tome till level 20, seeing as you wont get it at 15.

Quicken is a waste of a feat on a fleshy sorc.

Ditching FoP is a smart move tho, and in his place i would take heighten at first. You can maybe ignore heighten if you are experienced and geared player, otherwise its good to stick to it.

Consider dropping one of the spell pen feats and/or Greater evoc focus for empower or spell focus necro or enchantment.

wax_on_wax_off
02-07-2012, 04:47 AM
Standard nuker-type build.

Stats
Start with max Cha and max Con. Dump remaining points wherever you wish (preferably strength for carrying capacity and avoiding being helpless).

Skills
Maximize Concentration and UMD. All else is gravy.

Feats
Try this:
Level 1 - Toughness
Level 3 - Empower
Level 6 - Maximize
Level 9 - Spell Focus: Evocation
Level 12 - Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Level 15 - Heighten Spell
Level 18 - Spell Penetration

Rationale:
- Don't take maximize at level 1. WHY: Low-level spells are very cheap. Much more efficient to recast them several times instead of casting a maximized version.
- By the time you turn level 6 (plus 1 rank), you want to have both empower and maximize. WHY: You will gain access to SLAs which can be empowered and maximized for free.
- You can actually opt to take heighten earlier if you wish to take on a CC role, and use web/deep slumber as your primary spell.
- Spell penetration can be replaced by Extend or a second spell focus depending on your preferred playstyle.

Enhancements
- Take a savant. Else, you wouldn't be capitalizing on the strengths of the sorcerer class. Water or air for end-game is a solid choice.
- Don't bother getting improved concentration -- with max ranks and a decent item set, you will have better use for all that AP.

This looks right just swap Greater Spell Focus: Evocation for Greater Spell Penetration and you're set.

Btw, drow is a bad choice, go for human instead for crucial HP and an extra feat that can be Force of Personality (good feat for soloing cannith challenges).

rayworks
02-07-2012, 05:11 AM
As someone who runs a Drow Sorc (20th lvl Air Savant), your build is ... sucky.

No UMD? My sorc has 75% heal scroll casting without any gear enhancements. With gear, 95%. And over 100% if I really try. That and cure wands comes in handy like you wouldn't believe. Drop the diplo and haggle, take UMD and 1 rank in jump and tumble.

Drop the Concentration enhancements. You don't need them. My concentration is just under 50 at this point from just taking standard skill points and equipment.

Take a Prestige line. Early levels Fire primary Earth secondary is great. Or Earth pri, Fire sec. Around 14th lvl or so switch to Air or Water primary and Water or Air secondary. Put a couple of AP in Force too. And whichever PrE you take, remember to turn on Max, Emp, and Heighten for the SLA. An Air Sorc gets Electric Loop and I'm hitting for about 300 hps per target, with over 600 on crits. And it stuns them. AND it only costs 5sp a shot. Lightning bolt gets similar results for 10sp.

Feats can be improved a bit. FoP is not a good feat purchase. Take Heighten. Take Empower. Drop the greater spell pen and greater Evo focus.

Spell selection is incredibly important for a Sorc since you can't just change them at will. Drop Stoneskin. You can buy wands for that. Take D Door. There are times when you want that and some quests virtually demand it. In fact, get wands for Remove Curse, Remove Disease, etc. Comes in handy.

Remember that a Sorc is a stone-cold killer. The only reason you take CC spells is so you can have more time to play with them before you kill them. I like the disco ball so they dance while I fry them (insert evil laugh).

Madryoch
02-07-2012, 03:42 PM
This looks right just swap Greater Spell Focus: Evocation for Greater Spell Penetration and you're set.

Btw, drow is a bad choice, go for human instead for crucial HP and an extra feat that can be Force of Personality (good feat for soloing cannith challenges).

seeing that he intends to make a nuker and not a wizard u shouldn't offer him advice like extraspell pen on a featstarved class.

One is enough.I would suggest the player to experiment with various values of spell pen they really need for their playstyle once they get to lvl 20. And no the fact that new expansion is going to be about drows and stuff is not the reason to go for greater spell pen now. When it comes out we ll see. If u so desperately need spell pen on a sorc perhaps u should consider wizard past life(lives).Though in my experience since ur primary role is to be anuker and not a will based CC caster or a necro focused bastard u shouldn't require that high spell pen value. And sorry *** is that thing about Force of personality ...

You might want to argue with me about these awesome debuff spells out there which are very useful to have when u can afford the spell pen well in my opinion ur main role is not that. All in all the build and the variations Isharah has suggested are the things the OP should be looking for in my opinion.

Regarding race ... Well human is the most overpowered race for a sorc yet some people like the looks of their toon so they might not like a female dwarven (yeah as if females exist) with long beard and hairy breasts so they might pick their race due to that.Certainly not the optimal choice if u don't go human yet it's ur choice. I d also personally would like to suggest not to go WF if u intend to be raid toon imo. People say that wf gives u the ability to self heal but if u ask me i ll say they lose too many things to be better than a umd sorc with scroll heals especially when scrolls cost u pp while reconstruct costs u SP.

Kinerd
02-07-2012, 03:54 PM
If you are an arcane that can't CC or self heal, you are a DPS character with no Evasion and <400 HP. That is not a good place to be.

wax_on_wax_off
02-07-2012, 04:49 PM
seeing that he intends to make a nuker and not a wizard u shouldn't offer him advice like extraspell pen on a featstarved class.

One is enough.I would suggest the player to experiment with various values of spell pen they really need for their playstyle once they get to lvl 20. And no the fact that new expansion is going to be about drows and stuff is not the reason to go for greater spell pen now. When it comes out we ll see. If u so desperately need spell pen on a sorc perhaps u should consider wizard past life(lives).Though in my experience since ur primary role is to be anuker and not a will based CC caster or a necro focused bastard u shouldn't require that high spell pen value. And sorry *** is that thing about Force of personality ...

You might want to argue with me about these awesome debuff spells out there which are very useful to have when u can afford the spell pen well in my opinion ur main role is not that. All in all the build and the variations Isharah has suggested are the things the OP should be looking for in my opinion.

Regarding race ... Well human is the most overpowered race for a sorc yet some people like the looks of their toon so they might not like a female dwarven (yeah as if females exist) with long beard and hairy breasts so they might pick their race due to that.Certainly not the optimal choice if u don't go human yet it's ur choice. I d also personally would like to suggest not to go WF if u intend to be raid toon imo. People say that wf gives u the ability to self heal but if u ask me i ll say they lose too many things to be better than a umd sorc with scroll heals especially when scrolls cost u pp while reconstruct costs u SP.

I've recently been soloing or short manning epic and normal challenges. Often, due to scaling, I'd prefer 1-2 friends to come with me and don't worry about their class. Additionally, we are separated. So, it is impossible to rely on freedom of movement (and I don't have delving boots yet). Various mobs in the challenges throw a lot of hold person spells, it's a pain. With my free feat on a human sorcerer I'd probably take FoP as sorcerer is such a good class for challenges and I can do without extend.

Greater Spell Penetration can help a sorcerer hit the ~30 Spell Penetration that you need to be able to bypass SR in a majority of content (though not epic drow so much - need wizard/fvs PLs or elf wizard for that). While not as crucial for a sorcerer as what it is for a wizard - I wouldn't take the final rank in spell penetration enhancement - it is still very useful:

Energy Drain: best single target debuff, use this to prep very tough mobs for an icy prison or finger of death (energy drain + icy prison can make a joke out of many epic orange named mobs!)
Symbol of Death: best AoE debuff, use this to prep large mobs for web, disco ball or wail of the banshee.
Waves of Exhaustion: amazing debuff vs many raid bosses and good vs other mobs to keep them in webs longer or make them do less damage.
Otto's Disco Ball: minimal saves (compared to MHM) make this my preferred AoE will based CC, useful in easier content (normal/hard shroud for instance) and still useful in hard content if combined with debuffs (crushing despair/symbol of death).
Crushing Despair: One of the best debuffs out there, -5 will saves regardless of save, -2 saves on a failed save.

Greater Spell Penetration is more useful than any other option on a fleshy sorcerer.

Komitulek
02-07-2012, 05:10 PM
Ok, a lot of advice here, some good, some bad, some contradictory, some total BS and some that could have been delivered in a much less offensive manner, so I've reworked the first build a lot.

I'm not totally inexperienced in DDO, I've been in the game on and off since 2007, so the condescending attitutes (on some posts) can be dropped in favor of a few points in player-Cha/civility. I just haven't played a Sorcerer, or any Arcane to an appreciable level, before; however, acquiring +4 tomes is NOT an issue. I specifically made this thread to make sure I wasn't going to be using it until I had a good build to use it on.

UMD: I very specifically did not want UMD in this build because of the lack of available skill points, and my belief that Arcanes shouldn't have to do the Healer's job in a group; however, for a number of reasons I have added it.

Improved Concentration: Ok I get the point here, and there's plenty else I could spend the points on.

PrE: Ok, I hadn't read up on these and see the benefit of them, and consequently the need for Empower and Extend Heighten.

Warforged: Never happen. Warforged defeat my secondary purpose which is to be able to max Cha to use this as a vendor b****, as I clearly stated. They also defeat the main advantage of a Sorc over a Wiz, massive SP pool, by having a gimped Cha stat. None of the Wf advantages outweigh that to me, except self-healing, and I don't think a sorc should be wasting time healing when they could be doing damage.

When I play healers, in this game or others, I mostly heal, and was one of the top raiding Druids on my server back in my EverQuest days. Yes there are other things to do as well, like banishing beholders and sitting mobs down on their butts to start, but I don't let party members drop because I am f****** around Finger-Of-Lighting, breaking boxes, or pretending I can melee worth a s*** (Battle Clerics...ROFLMFAO, level 5 dps on a level 15 toon), I keep the whole group alive regardless of their role.

Drow: I took Drow for the 20 Cha and nothing more. Not even going to get into the race discussion as it is 97% moot at this point and has been done to death and resurrected innumerable times. I have switched to Human for the extra Feat and skill points, and lost 2 Cha, but I am not losing 4 just so I can waste time doing the healer's job.

FoP: Because Wis is useless except for Will Save on a Sorc, I use FoP to bundle Will Save with the same stat that gives me SP, skill boosts to Diplomacy to drop agro and Haggle to max vendor foddering, etc. Almost nothing will get through a Will save based on 20 base Cha, and the gimpage achieved by wasting stat points on Wis will still not give me anything close to the same Will Save. At high levels when I don't need the stat boost to Will saves I CAN do a FoP swap, after all, but not until its usefulness to me is outlived.

Spell Penetration: Ok, easy enough to drop, Spell Pen gear is not too hard to find, but at early levels when my current L4 sorc casting Niacs is being resisted 5 out of 7 (in one particulary annoying run of Butchers on elite) in a row by kobold shamans what am I to do? It's not like I can use the much shorter range Acid Splash or Burning Hands on mobs that are swarming the Barb sprinting 60' down the hall.

Metamagic:

<Isharah> I didn't take Maximize at 1, for the same reason you stated, they can be cast multiple times cheaper. For the same reason, I didn't take Empower at all, because Maximize is more SP efficient than Empower.

However, now that I've examined the PrEs in detail, I will be fitting Empower and Extend in, and probably Quicken too now that I have re-read the description several times over.

The big question for me now is, do I switch from Fire/Acid to Water/Air or Water/Acid at 11 and take advantage of Water Savant + Cone of Cold, do it at 13 for Otilukes', or save it until 16 for Polar Ray?

Dandonk
02-07-2012, 05:15 PM
Spell Penetration: Ok, easy enough to drop, Spell Pen gear is not too hard to find, but at early levels when my current L4 sorc casting Niacs is being resisted 5 out of 7 (in one particulary annoying run of Butchers on elite) in a row by kobold shamans what am I to do? It's not like I can use the much shorter range Acid Splash or Burning Hands on mobs that are swarming the Barb sprinting 60' down the hall.?

Spell Pen has nothing to do with the saves the monsters make. Damage spells are not affected by spell resistance, and as such, Spell Pen has NO use for those.
The monsters have a save they can make versus your spells - in the case of niac's, a reflex save. This is entirely seperate from and unaffected by Spell Pen.

Spell Pen is useful for CC like otto's and insta kills like fod.

Kinerd
02-07-2012, 05:25 PM
Warforged: Never happen. Warforged defeat my secondary purpose which is to be able to max Cha to use this as a vendor b****, as I clearly stated. They also defeat the main advantage of a Sorc over a Wiz, massive SP pool, by having a gimped Cha stat. None of the Wf advantages outweigh that to me, except self-healing, and I don't think a sorc should be wasting time healing when they could be doing damage.This is not meant to be condescending. The idea that WF arcanes "waste time" healing is just inaccurate. It takes an instant to push the Quickened Reconstruct button and get (at least!) 255 HP. It's easy money.

I feel like you have some kind of past drama from the insistence with which you repeat the "healer's job" thing you have going on, and I won't try to guess as to that source. I will just point out that the majority of healing is done in mass form. You will not be standing with the melees, so it requires extra effort from the healer to keep you alive. You know what melees are like, they can't take a leak without taking 200 untyped damage, losing an eye, and getting poisoned. You taking half a second to allow the healer to focus completely on them is a net positive for the group.

AtomicMew
02-07-2012, 05:37 PM
Ok, a lot of advice here, some good, some bad, some contradictory, some total BS and some that could have been delivered in a much less offensive manner, so I've reworked the first build a lot.

I'm not totally inexperienced in DDO, I've been in the game on and off since 2007, so the condescending attitutes (on some posts) can be dropped in favor of a few points in player-Cha/civility.
The only condescending posts, are yours. You are clearly inexperienced at playing arcanes, as you yourself admit, yet you think you have the wherewithal to dismiss free and generously given advice as "bad, contradictory and BS"? Talk about arrogant.

From the last post, it's still clear that you do not understand how to play an arcane. A dose of humility and keeping an open mind would do more for you and your arcane endeavors than any single piece of advice.

MRMechMan
02-07-2012, 09:31 PM
Going WF will not gimp your sp pool.

Going WF will not break your bank. You want a haggle char? Make a bard.

Choosing haggle over umd on a fleshie sorc is astonishing.

Not taking empower because maximize is more efficient is silly. Should melee not take improved critical because power attack adds more dps?

All I can say that personally when on my healer, if an arcane cannot self heal it is generally a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Good arcanes are a complete package and can look after themselves. Generally I let that sorc without umd/isn't WF or that fleshie AM sort their own stuff out...I didn't sign up to keep 250hp zero self healing agro magnets up...I'll do it if needed but often a good lesson is in order. It is SO easy to self heal on an arcane and SO useful that it's silly not to build for it.

trog_star
02-08-2012, 12:10 AM
your origional build looks great and i hope you enjoy that +4 tome :)

AmatsukaIncarnate
02-08-2012, 12:34 AM
Going WF will not gimp your sp pool.

Going WF will not break your bank. You want a haggle char? Make a bard.

Choosing haggle over umd on a fleshie sorc is astonishing.

Not taking empower because maximize is more efficient is silly. Should melee not take improved critical because power attack adds more dps?

All I can say that personally when on my healer, if an arcane cannot self heal it is generally a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Good arcanes are a complete package and can look after themselves. Generally I let that sorc without umd/isn't WF or that fleshie AM sort their own stuff out...I didn't sign up to keep 250hp zero self healing agro magnets up...I'll do it if needed but often a good lesson is in order. It is SO easy to self heal on an arcane and SO useful that it's silly not to build for it.

This.
While the WF vs Human thing is a personal preference, for a first life sorcerer or an inexperienced arcane, WF is very forgiving to mistakes. Humans can self heal with UMD, but can be interrupted which is usually when the DING! happens. Also, heal scrolls don't heal as much as a reconstruct does which means you can get your hp up much quicker as a WF.

On my cleric, I normally expect arcanes to be able to take care of themselves. It is, like MechMan says, a
pain to have to divert my attention to an arcane who can't manage his aggro and keep himself healthy at the same time.

If this is your first arcane character, WF is really the way to go. You'll be much happier when you meet incompetent healers or make mistakes on your own part.

grgurius
02-08-2012, 12:49 AM
UMD: I very specifically did not want UMD in this build because of the lack of available skill points, and my belief that Arcanes shouldn't have to do the Healer's job in a group; however, for a number of reasons I have added it.


None of the Wf advantages outweigh that to me, except self-healing, and I don't think a sorc should be wasting time healing when they could be doing damage.

You claim that you know what you are doing, but this part tells me you do not. Keeping yourself alive is your and your only responsibility, don't expect someone to babysit you.



Drow: I took Drow for the 20 Cha and nothing more. Not even going to get into the race discussion as it is 97% moot at this point and has been done to death and resurrected innumerable times. I have switched to Human for the extra Feat and skill points, and lost 2 Cha, but I am not losing 4 just so I can waste time doing the healer's job.


Drow can get 1 point higher charisma, but since that putts them at an odd number it doesn't really matter. By switching to human you only lost 1 point of charisma, but gained 2 points in constitution and much more useful racial enchantments.



Spell Penetration: Ok, easy enough to drop, Spell Pen gear is not too hard to find, but at early levels when my current L4 sorc casting Niacs is being resisted 5 out of 7 (in one particulary annoying run of Butchers on elite) in a row by kobold shamans what am I to do? It's not like I can use the much shorter range Acid Splash or Burning Hands on mobs that are swarming the Barb sprinting 60' down the hall.


Damage spells are not affected by spell resistance, that shaman was probably saving it.



However, now that I've examined the PrEs in detail, I will be fitting Empower and Extend in, and probably Quicken too now that I have re-read the description several times over.


Empower is a smart move, since SLAs can be maxed and empowered without the extra cost, and max+emp is not that mana inefficient as you think. But why do you need extend and quicken. Extend affects buffs only since u9 spell pass, but i bet the feat description is still the old one (less then permanent, more than instant). Quicken is a complete waste of a feat on a fleshy sorc.

In short, in your first post you have asked us for advice, in your second post is painfully clear that you have no idea how many mechanics of this game work. Advice is there, take it or don't, but drop the attitude.

Isharah
02-08-2012, 06:42 AM
UMD: I very specifically did not want UMD in this build because of the lack of available skill points, and my belief that Arcanes shouldn't have to do the Healer's job in a group; however, for a number of reasons I have added it.


Being able to throw scroll heals (both for self and party), restorations, and perhaps even arti buffs is one of the most underrated advantages a sorc has over a wizard.

From my experience playing sorcerers in DDO, the only important skills you need are Concentration and UMD. IMO, the occasional use of the other available skills doesn't warrant dropping Concentration or UMD.



Warforged: Never happen. Warforged defeat my secondary purpose ... main advantage of a Sorc over a Wiz, massive SP pool, by having a gimped Cha stat ...

Remember also that warforged have certain immunities. Losing a few points of charisma doesn't have a big effect on your maximum SP pool. Most of it comes from the fact that you gain x2 SP from items (i.e. Archmage gives 200x2=400 SP).

The facet that you probably want is this: the Cha penalty on WF gives you lower DCs on your spells. If you want to perform decent sorc-grade CC, you are absolutely right to not go warforged.



Drow: I took Drow for the 20 Cha and nothing more ... I have switched to Human for the extra Feat and skill points, and lost 2 Cha ...

Human also allows you to self-heal, but unlike for WF this happens much later (probably when you are already level 20 and have some decent gear on). Note also that technically, you don't get 2 less Charisma from going human instead of drow; humans are able to get a racial enhancement that allows them to get +1 to two stats. As already pointed out, with a +4 tome and all Charisma enhancements on both races, you will have an odd Charisma score on a drow and the same spell DCs between the drow and the human.



FoP: Because Wis is useless except for Will Save on a Sorc, I use FoP to bundle Will Save ... At high levels when I don't need the stat boost to Will saves I CAN do a FoP swap, after all, but not until its usefulness to me is outlived.

Justified... Please don't forget to swap out at 20. :p



Spell Penetration: Ok, easy enough to drop, Spell Pen gear is not too hard to find, but at early levels when my current L4 sorc casting Niacs is being resisted 5 out of 7 (in one particulary annoying run of Butchers on elite) ...

In general for DDO

SPELL PENETRATION - only works for spells that deal an effect (ex. Otto's resistible dance, deep slumber, flesh to stone, power word: kill, etc.). Does NOT work for spells that purely cause damage.
SPELL DC - works for many spells that either deal an effect or cause pure damage (ex. niac's cold ray, fire wall, Otiluke's freezing sphere, etc.).

Note though that not all spells that cause an effect use SPELL DC -- some use spell penetration only. Examples are the power word spells and Otto's irresistible dance.



<Isharah> I didn't take Maximize at 1, for the same reason you stated, they can be cast multiple times cheaper. For the same reason, I didn't take Empower at all, because Maximize is more SP efficient than Empower.

However, now that I've examined the PrEs in detail, I will be fitting Empower and Extend in, and probably Quicken too now that I have re-read the description several times over.


It's pretty standard for sorcerers in DDO to take both empower and maximize, since this class characteristically has the highest DPS output among all others.

Regarding SP efficiency, I suggest you select your "normal damage" spells and keep empower permanently off on them, and another "all-out nuking" set of spells and keep both empower and maximize permanently on for them. This way you can dish damage efficiently when you have the luxury to do so, then when things go wrong or suddenly you need to nuke all-out, you can use your more expensive nuking ones.

Extend isn't a must -- this is more of "I find it easier to play with extend on my sorc" than "extend is needed on a sorcerer".

Quicken isn't a must as long as you kite prudently and stay away from the jobs of a pale master or WF sorc. :)



The big question for me now is, do I switch from Fire/Acid to Water/Air or Water/Acid at 11 and take advantage of Water Savant + Cone of Cold, do it at 13 for Otilukes', or save it until 16 for Polar Ray?

I suggest staying fire/acid or fire/air until you are done with Necro 4, then... Well, you can find a lot of threads arguing about the best savant for the upper levels. :D

Cheers.