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View Full Version : Why no Lets Talk : Ranged Damage



Delssar
02-04-2012, 02:44 PM
Ranged damage is horrible compaired to melee and melee horrible compared to Casters. I think we need a lets talk about ranged damage. I heard there use to be a power attack like feat for ranged, were did it go and why? Not only that, something that most melee's and casters dont have to worry about is the damage / attack being two different stats, I get the reasoning behind it, but it allows rangers atleast to easily gimp themselves.

Idea from anyone else how to fix ranged damage?

lppmor
02-05-2012, 03:58 AM
Adding Dex modifier to ranged damage instead of Str would help a lot. This way archers could just focus on Dex, the same way melees focus on Str.

Sidewaysgts86
02-05-2012, 04:51 AM
... something that most melee's and casters dont have to worry about is the damage / attack being two different stats,...

Unless youre a ranger ironically enough, every 2wf might disagree with ya somewhat on this. The prereq of 17 base dex for the final tier of 2wf requires a lot of sacrifice at creation. Ever tried making a 2wf paladin? Dex for the 2wfing tiers, Str for the damage, and charisma for the divine might. Up to 20-base if we want the final tier. The only melees who have it "Easy" stat wise are those who focus on nothing but two-handed fighting. In this aspect I largely disagree with you.

HOWEVER, dont get the wrong idea- Because I agree completely with your overall point here. My thoughts on the matter?

I think if given 2 things, ranged characters would see some very nice buffs. 1- Attack speed. The current attack speed, at least it seems to me, for ranged weapons is a bit too slow. Id like to see BAB have a notable effect on ranged attack speed. Of related note- if this route was taken, id STRONGLY love the idea of rangers getting MORE increases to ranged-attack speed. Rangers should be unparalleled imo when it comes to ranged-dps. Other appropriate classes (Ie namely the rogue, arti to a lesser degree, and fighter) should bring "other" worthwhile things to the table that might make you think twice, of course.

2- I think we need more ranged-tactics (Again I think rangers should get the obvious nod here with a wider selection). Something like a pinning strike, a shot that nails a target where it stands. Not "helpless" by any means, just unable to physically move. Maybe give it a save that when passed instead does a reduction in run-speed (Dont think im a fan of saving here negating the effect, i like to imagine that it did take an arrow to the knee, so to speak :P)

Im sure we can use our imaginations to come up with more suiting/creative/useful options. Imagine rangers getting a skill called "aimed shot" or some such- That when clicking pops up a second window in a similar fashion to resists, that lets the ranger make a single "targeted" shot at a creatures vitals, the foot/ankle (doing the pinned/slow movement), the shoulder that results in penalties to attack, the neck/throat that applies some kind of bleeding effect, etc.

You get the idea

Failedlegend
02-05-2012, 05:27 AM
Congrats on creating the eightieth thread about this Madfloyd already said this is coming but he only wants to do so many Let's Talk at once...only so many staff to read em.

azrael4h
02-05-2012, 09:57 AM
Unless youre a ranger ironically enough, every 2wf might disagree with ya somewhat on this. The prereq of 17 base dex for the final tier of 2wf requires a lot of sacrifice at creation. Ever tried making a 2wf paladin? Dex for the 2wfing tiers, Str for the damage, and charisma for the divine might. Up to 20-base if we want the final tier. The only melees who have it "Easy" stat wise are those who focus on nothing but two-handed fighting. In this aspect I largely disagree with you.

You forgot their main stat: CON.



HOWEVER, dont get the wrong idea- Because I agree completely with your overall point here. My thoughts on the matter?

I think if given 2 things, ranged characters would see some very nice buffs. 1- Attack speed. The current attack speed, at least it seems to me, for ranged weapons is a bit too slow. Id like to see BAB have a notable effect on ranged attack speed. Of related note- if this route was taken, id STRONGLY love the idea of rangers getting MORE increases to ranged-attack speed. Rangers should be unparalleled imo when it comes to ranged-dps. Other appropriate classes (Ie namely the rogue, arti to a lesser degree, and fighter) should bring "other" worthwhile things to the table that might make you think twice, of course.

2- I think we need more ranged-tactics (Again I think rangers should get the obvious nod here with a wider selection). Something like a pinning strike, a shot that nails a target where it stands. Not "helpless" by any means, just unable to physically move. Maybe give it a save that when passed instead does a reduction in run-speed (Dont think im a fan of saving here negating the effect, i like to imagine that it did take an arrow to the knee, so to speak :P)

Im sure we can use our imaginations to come up with more suiting/creative/useful options. Imagine rangers getting a skill called "aimed shot" or some such- That when clicking pops up a second window in a similar fashion to resists, that lets the ranger make a single "targeted" shot at a creatures vitals, the foot/ankle (doing the pinned/slow movement), the shoulder that results in penalties to attack, the neck/throat that applies some kind of bleeding effect, etc.

You get the idea

I think increasing the base ROF to what is currently the ROF with Rapid shot would help, Rapid shot then could increase it further, by the same percentage that it does now over the base, non-RS ROF.

Mobs can hit us with Slicing Blow or Hamstring or such with ranged attacks, why not let us hit them with the same?

Talon_Moonshadow
02-05-2012, 10:17 AM
I feel my Artificer 15's ranged DPS is just fine. Great even.

More often than not she has the high kill count in most PUGS. And she is never far behind.

If the quest is especially ranged friendly or I have the right weapons no one else even comes close.
Like doing Invaders with my Banishing repeater. And I don't even have Improved Precise shot yet!

My Rangers however are another story.

Some ranged friendly quests see me getting a lot of kills. Kobold Assault for instance.

Sometimes I have plenty of special arrows apprpriate for the monsters in a specific quest and do pretty good their too.

But usually my DPS is very gimped compared to other classes'

Slayer arrows are pretty good. as is the capstone.
Add in some really good bows and I start to fee useful........... at level 20! :(

Manyshot is good.
But... the really well equiped melee guys can actually compete with Manyshot now.....at least at the highest lvls.

I've been playing rangers and archers for about six years now.
But along comes Turbine's precious Artificer and slaps me in the face. :(

The Artificer shows me just what kind of ranged DPS my Ranger should have been doing all along.

But besides the Artificer, my main complaint about ranged combat is that no but a fully specced out archer can do it at all!

Ranged combat is practically useless for any toon not specced for it. And that is not right IMO.

Every class of character deserves to have a useful ranged option IMO.

Maybe it requres gear appropriate for their level of challenge, but the ranged option should be available for them to use when it makes sense to do so.

I'm curious just how well an all Barbarian Master Artificer raid would go. Could they take down the end boss in time with their throwing axes?

Worse....an all Paladin one!

Any fix to ranged needs to fix it for everyone.

Although after hiding my face in shame around Artificers, I'll take a change that helps only Rangers if I can get it. :(

Gorbadoc
02-05-2012, 12:39 PM
There are points in the game where my melee bard dominates with a throwing dagger. My melee weapon hurts way more numerically, but because ranged DPS is all advantages and no disadvantages, the small numbers don't actually matter-- sometimes.

With ranged DPS:
You don't run out of spell points.
You rarely take melee hits.
It's easier to expose yourself to only one monster at a time (as compared to meleeing).
It's easy to pull out of combat (step behind the door frame).
You don't have to eat ranged damage while closing the gap between you and your opponent.
If your opponent is hopping around like a kobold, it doesn't matter; he isn't jumping out of your range.

If the monsters weren't AIs, ranged DPS would have a huge disadvantage: Monsters would take cover, forcing you to get close to get a clear shot. Ranged DPS could match melee DPS, because both would have reasonable limitations.

Monsters aren't so clever, though. To keep ranged DPS and spell DPS from dominating the game, one of two things must be done:
Ranged (and spell) DPS must be kept low, to compensate for their ludicrous advantages, or
The game needs tactical disadvantages for non-melee builds.

Ganolyn
02-05-2012, 12:43 PM
It's coming... someday.


http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4263456&postcount=65

Ravoc-DDO
02-05-2012, 06:16 PM
It's coming... someday.


http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4263456&postcount=65

Just easy talk on their part to keep avoiding the topic for the forseeable future.

Adding decorative toilets in bars prolly has higher priority than making a ranged pass.

Havok.cry
02-05-2012, 06:51 PM
I agree that the arti was a slap in the face to every arcane archer in the game. A bigger one than the gnollish warbow. The arti threw every argument to keep ranged damage rediculously low out the window.

I also disagree that rangers should get the best bow perks. Any class with a high base attack bonus should be able to master a weapon they choose. This us dungeons and dragons not WoW. The mainline combat classes should be able to be masters of whatever style of weapon combat they prefer. Now Arcane archers and deepwood snipers SHOULD be the kings if ranged weapon damage.

furbyoats
02-05-2012, 08:08 PM
I agree that the arti was a slap in the face to every arcane archer in the game. A bigger one than the gnollish warbow. The arti threw every argument to keep ranged damage rediculously low out the window.

I also disagree that rangers should get the best bow perks. Any class with a high base attack bonus should be able to master a weapon they choose. This us dungeons and dragons not WoW. The mainline combat classes should be able to be masters of whatever style of weapon combat they prefer. Now Arcane archers and deepwood snipers SHOULD be the kings if ranged weapon damage.

They could introduce some sort of double/triple strike AP line or items that would allow an increase of DPS while manyshot was on cooldown, with a minimum of 18 levels of ranger. Definitely not active during manyshot tho (that would be insane). Perhaps a 10% change to shoot 2 arrows and a 3% chance to shoot 3...or something of that nature.

Havok.cry
02-05-2012, 09:33 PM
They could introduce some sort of double/triple strike AP line or items that would allow an increase of DPS while manyshot was on cooldown, with a minimum of 18 levels of ranger. Definitely not active during manyshot tho (that would be insane). Perhaps a 10% change to shoot 2 arrows and a 3% chance to shoot 3...or something of that nature.

I am saving my thoughts for the dev's thread.

noinfo
02-05-2012, 09:38 PM
Unless youre a ranger ironically enough, every 2wf might disagree with ya somewhat on this. The prereq of 17 base dex for the final tier of 2wf requires a lot of sacrifice at creation. Ever tried making a 2wf paladin? Dex for the 2wfing tiers, Str for the damage, and charisma for the divine might. Up to 20-base if we want the final tier. The only melees who have it "Easy" stat wise are those who focus on nothing but two-handed fighting. In this aspect I largely disagree with you.

HOWEVER, dont get the wrong idea- Because I agree completely with your overall point here. My thoughts on the matter?

I think if given 2 things, ranged characters would see some very nice buffs. 1- Attack speed. The current attack speed, at least it seems to me, for ranged weapons is a bit too slow. Id like to see BAB have a notable effect on ranged attack speed. Of related note- if this route was taken, id STRONGLY love the idea of rangers getting MORE increases to ranged-attack speed. Rangers should be unparalleled imo when it comes to ranged-dps. Other appropriate classes (Ie namely the rogue, arti to a lesser degree, and fighter) should bring "other" worthwhile things to the table that might make you think twice, of course.

2- I think we need more ranged-tactics (Again I think rangers should get the obvious nod here with a wider selection). Something like a pinning strike, a shot that nails a target where it stands. Not "helpless" by any means, just unable to physically move. Maybe give it a save that when passed instead does a reduction in run-speed (Dont think im a fan of saving here negating the effect, i like to imagine that it did take an arrow to the knee, so to speak :P)

Im sure we can use our imaginations to come up with more suiting/creative/useful options. Imagine rangers getting a skill called "aimed shot" or some such- That when clicking pops up a second window in a similar fashion to resists, that lets the ranger make a single "targeted" shot at a creatures vitals, the foot/ankle (doing the pinned/slow movement), the shoulder that results in penalties to attack, the neck/throat that applies some kind of bleeding effect, etc.

You get the idea

A Ranger should be no better than any other class at ranged combat that takes the same feats and PRE.

94daniel
02-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Well ranged attack speed for all should be made you hit at least same speed as the mobs in the game my lvl 15 AA looses in speed to nearly any mob that would be thought as a barb or a fighter that just grabs a bow cause I'm far away. So bringing the baseline speed to the same line for all would be a nice fix. With rapid shot the speed should be greater.
Many ideas of fixing ranged damage revolve around feats but my kensai2 AA even with his many feats finds it hard to get them all fit there. PBS, RS, mental toughness, many shot, IP, IPS, Bow strength, zen archery and toughness. IMO. Best way to fix ranged attack for AA and DWS would be changing the PREs and this is best done when the new enchantment tree mechanism is added. Making the mechanism similar to what was planed for tempest:
Tempest abilities for spending points in the Tempest tree:

5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
25 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand

But adding damage/accuracy and/or speed depending on the needs to make ranged viable and even so that you can stay ranged for most situations. Anyways in 98% of the game a Barb can keep his Esos on so why should ranged be only good for the 20sec that many shot is on.

One issues is revolved with many shot I'm my self very fond of it as it is but the stance idea seems good as well. I like the situational burst damage and id like it to stay or at least get something close to that, a many shot stance seems great but the how to make the damage not too OP will be difficult. Ideas i read usually have a negative to hit but that might be little harsh at least as dramatic as -8 to hit specially when your to hit counted by dex and damage by str.
My idea would be to make a stance one and keep the occasional burst version. Making stance weaker than the existing many shot and give something like a movement penalty should be easy to implement anyways it seems to be a trend in ddo atm for example monk earth stance, SD and DOS. This would probably be eases to ad to game making something like it works only when you don't move would be probably horrifying with lag.

So balancing all these things might make a fix for ranged damage.

JasonJi72
02-06-2012, 12:22 AM
I feel my Artificer 15's ranged DPS is just fine. Great even.

More often than not she has the high kill count in most PUGS. And she is never far behind.

If the quest is especially ranged friendly or I have the right weapons no one else even comes close.
Like doing Invaders with my Banishing repeater. And I don't even have Improved Precise shot yet!

My Rangers however are another story.

Some ranged friendly quests see me getting a lot of kills. Kobold Assault for instance.

Sometimes I have plenty of special arrows apprpriate for the monsters in a specific quest and do pretty good their too.

But usually my DPS is very gimped compared to other classes'

Slayer arrows are pretty good. as is the capstone.
Add in some really good bows and I start to fee useful........... at level 20! :(

Manyshot is good.
But... the really well equiped melee guys can actually compete with Manyshot now.....at least at the highest lvls.

I've been playing rangers and archers for about six years now.
But along comes Turbine's precious Artificer and slaps me in the face. :(

The Artificer shows me just what kind of ranged DPS my Ranger should have been doing all along.

But besides the Artificer, my main complaint about ranged combat is that no but a fully specced out archer can do it at all!

Ranged combat is practically useless for any toon not specced for it. And that is not right IMO.

Every class of character deserves to have a useful ranged option IMO.

Maybe it requres gear appropriate for their level of challenge, but the ranged option should be available for them to use when it makes sense to do so.

I'm curious just how well an all Barbarian Master Artificer raid would go. Could they take down the end boss in time with their throwing axes?

Worse....an all Paladin one!

Any fix to ranged needs to fix it for everyone.

Although after hiding my face in shame around Artificers, I'll take a change that helps only Rangers if I can get it. :(

Artificers were a HUGE slap in the face to Bards and Rogues as well, not just Rangers. Oh yeah, and don't forget the insane insult to clerics and fvs' who worked really hard to max out their blade barriers.

Wouldn't it be funny if they made Druids with the same type of power they gave Artificers with regard to the other specialist classes? All the other Spellcasting Classes would be rioting in the streets. The skies of Stormreach would be red with rage.

Orratti
02-06-2012, 02:28 AM
Because that is a pile of mutagenic radioactive poo no dev wants to step into. Increased range damage output on top of caster damage will likely be the final death of melee as nothing will survive long enough to be reached. No matter how you balance it in order to allow that increase someone is going to get ticked.

Maybe if you allowed all melee weapons to be used as returning thrown weapons, that way you can throw your greataxe at them and at least get a hit in before they die and save yourself the trouble of running up to swing at a corpse.

Of course there is the option of only increasing ranged a little while still making sure it is far enough behind melee and spells to still be considered completely gimped dps wise. I'm sure no one would get upset about that. Right?

Imo to really achieve game balance you would have to taylor make enemies that are designed to be taken out by specific classes. Some that are invulnerable to projectiles, some invulnerable to spells and some that are invulnerable somehow to being meleed I suppose. Throw in some cool graphics of arrows bouncing off, spheres of protection that spells bounce from, sparks coming off melee weapons along with warnings of weapon damage. Problem with that is soloing those quests would mostly be out the window.

We keep hearing about a future range pass but nothing set in stone, just hints and whispers. I imagine it is such a gordian knot to tackle that it is much like cleaning out the storage closet. You plan on doing it soon, just not this week/month/year.

Ravoc-DDO
02-06-2012, 02:48 PM
A Ranger should be no better than any other class at ranged combat that takes the same feats and PRE.

Then there is no point in having classes, and we might as well replace them all with a single generic one.

kaobang
02-06-2012, 03:08 PM
You don't run out of spell points.
You rarely take melee hits.
[/list]


Spell points are not often a limitations with the numbers of shrines + torc/conc opp.

The fact that archer don't take melee hits is a myth.
At low lvl we can kill before the mob close the gap (but seriously good archers just use THF at low lvl) but at higher lvl it will never happen.
And in most of the case archers should be with the melee pack to get the mass heals.
Plus moving we loose -4 to hit which can reduce our dps.

Now sure you can take a bow, and kite and taking 10-20 more time to kill a mob, and not being hit, but every class can run around and not doing dmg.

CanuckWisdom
02-06-2012, 03:46 PM
SUGGESTIONS

Hamstring: Enemy archers can use it, why can't we. This could be in the place of a pin type feat, or in addition to. And/or 'Called Shot' feat, ala PnP DnD.

Attack speed: Bow attack speed was recently increased by a bit via rapid fire feat. Another such small nudge would be good if combined with other desired ranged changes. (Im not an expert with crossbows but Ive seen a lot of damage out of some arti's so increasing that speed would be a different issue)

Power Shot: Power attack for ranged. Functions the exact same but for ranged. Possible idea; arti's get rune arms and one handed cross bow use (and pets, and spells), perhaps everyone who uses bows (where strength can influence the pull) with two hands gets +10 instead of +5, just like THF. Perhaps +5, +10 within PBS range for two handed ranged weapons.
This (if +5 for all) feat on its own would not be enough unless combo'd with a slight attack speed increase (my recommendation). Too much attack speed increase for ranged could be over powering as they have the distinct advantage of being able to hit anyone they can see essentially, without moving.

I typically compare my kensai arcane archer's DPS to my two handed fighter's DPS (both kensai, both use two handed weapons, one has superior range). While my archer is lvl 19 and on the beginning of the gear trail, I have lvl 12 fighters who do ~ as much damage/near as much per hit with THF and attack faster. Even considering the possibility for IPS to double/triple DPS, the advantage of beginning attacks sooner and from further, the archer can still lag behind in general (single target and soloing, archers suck).

DISCLAIMERS

As I suggested above, I understand ranged doing slightly less DPS than melee because of the advantages of doing ranged damage/attacks, but the damage is just really low.

I dont want everyone becoming an archer as the hot new thing (because the damage got over-buffed), that would be lame. Also, I am suggesting feats for ranged, but finding the space for three new feats (all of which I find acceptable) might be a bit much, especially on ranger build (vs. the feat heavy fighter builds).

Multishot is a powerful ability and could throw a wrench into any changes. Something to consider. Multishot may need to remain separate from some other changes.

My perspectives come from a lvl 19 elf arcane archer without sweet l33t end game gear or Slayer arrows, so some newbishness on the issues at hand may shine through. (Bow of sinew, black dragon scale armor, some cove stuff etc)

ALSO

If/when there is a 'Lets Talk: Ranged', its my hope that the developer could start it off with what their concerns over ranged are. I would find that very interesting. Is there a fear that matching ranged dps to melee will make everyone ranged because obviously killing the thing before it gets to you is desirable?

CanuckWisdom
02-06-2012, 04:05 PM
My other comment on ranged is that, in good and bad ways, ranged attackers can benefit more (in my opinion) from a skilled player thoughtfully using tactical approaches, than melee combatants.

This is mainly due to Improved Precise Shot, which is a super fun feat.

Playing my archer, I cannot really solo, despite being able to get traps and effectively UMD heals and buffs, the low damage really shows. When grouped, I can make better use of IPS for damage, crowd control and debuffs. I love this part of playing a bow user as much as I love anything about DDO.

CanuckWisdom
02-06-2012, 04:30 PM
I agree that the arti was a slap in the face to every arcane archer in the game. A bigger one than the gnollish warbow. The arti threw every argument to keep ranged damage rediculously low out the window.

I also disagree that rangers should get the best bow perks. Any class with a high base attack bonus should be able to master a weapon they choose. This us dungeons and dragons not WoW. The mainline combat classes should be able to be masters of whatever style of weapon combat they prefer. Now Arcane archers and deepwood snipers SHOULD be the kings if ranged weapon damage.

Yes to this and the posts above it commenting on arti's vs. other ranged. Artificiers get pets (similar to what many games give the woodsman/ranger types... .... ...) as well as spells that damage and buff.

Arcane archers are almost entirely centered on using physical ranged damage (yes, rangers get TWF, kensai can invest in PA etc), but do inferior damage to an arti that isn't even yet kiting through a blade barrier and flame turret?????