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furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:23 AM
This thread is for discussing what can be added to melee characters' abilities to make them more unique/fun/viable in groups. I am consolidating some posts from another thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=360366 that was originally about the favoritism of casters. This is not the place to talk about how unfair casters are. If people want to see actual boons to melees then this thread needs to focus on that aspect, please consider this when you reply.

Here are a few posts that have some great ideas to start with. Please give the original posters their due credit and rep.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:23 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4296097#post4296097


Well, in general I want all melees to be able to shine at something. For each of the core classes and PRE options I want to be able to look at them and be able to ask questions like:
- How can this handle mobs solo
- How can this handle a group
- How can this CC
- How can this contribute to boss DPS

I can't wait to see what Turbine has in store - I'm sure their teams of people who spend more time on this have more and better ideas. Here are some of mine in a general sense
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I'd like classes with "tankiness" to have an option to stance into an offense mode, and not just gear swap, so that they can contribute more to raids when you don't need a tank.

I'd like to have the option and variety to build some tankiness in a non-tank build. It may not suffice for eLOB or elite TOD, but I don't have a problem someone tanking Zyxyz on a cleric ... but I'd like them to give up something to do that.

I want PRE options for non-prime-casters finished (this includes bards).

I'd like everyone to have cool ways to kill or manage trash; maybe some only kill trash in certain circumstances (like Assassins).

I'd like tempest 3 to be the serious master of attack speed with TWF.

I'd like it if restrictions on vorpal / banish / etc. were relaxed somewhat - raising the HP limit or removing it.

I'd like Deepwood Sniper to be a ranged assassin, with stealth kill shots and possibly debilitating shots like crippling strike, etc. I wouldn't mind if it had a rune-arm-like charge mechanic as well.

I'd like Acrobats to be able to unbalance or group-CC stuff with a staff (proc trips/stuns on glancing blows) or something crazy similar. I'd like them to have a leap.

I'd like Mechanics to have serous bonuses against non-critable folks, perhaps ignoring fortification.

I'd like Ravagers to generate serious fear (not fearsome, but fear like players get hit with), shaken and other debuff effects to control crowds and inflict debuffs on bosses similar to Symbol of Pain.

I'd like Occult Slayer to have serious bonuses against magical creatures and defenses against same tied to their rages. I wouldn't mind if in epics they had the capability to debilitate and destroy casters, esp. high SR ones.

I'd like PDKs to have party buffing auras ... some could be morale and would overlap a bit with bards; others could infringe a bit on pallies ... but that's ok on a class with a gajillion fighter feats.

I'd like the ability to be in one "form" (elemental savant, undead, druid, etc.) as well as one "martial" stance (stalwart, kensai, showtime, etc.) and one "mystical" stance or similar (monk elemental stances, etc.) ... and I'd like to move some current boosts into stances (power surge, showtime).

I'd like other dragonmarks besides sentinel matter and provide out of class benefits to non-casters. These are primarily utility and defenses, rarely offense ... and that's ok.

I'd like pally PREs and AP completely rethought and retooled.

I'd like the "casting" PREs that would encourage other styles to be finished. Warpriest and Divine Avenger both would favor swinging a weapon, and to do that properly on a divine would mean to drop some of the casting feats and AoV ... and those builds wouldn't be good DoT tanks.

I'd like elves boosted and I'd like a realistic option to play something like an Eldritch Knight (elvish or not) ... some sort of arcane spellcaster who primarily melees & buffs ... but takes a hit in DCs or area CC or something meaningful.

I'd like all racial AP rethought that are rarely used, undervalued or overpriced. Halfling guile. Add hammers to the dwarven lines. Make drow SR something you could advance.

I'd like a reason to run a monk who's not only a little splash into monk to use any other weapon besides handwraps. PRE or feats or apply some abilities to weapons.

I'd like weapon finesse to be a viable option. I'd like pointless feats to get a small bump. Precision. Resilience. Those both "end if you cast a spell". Awesome, only melees don't use them 'cause they are horrid.

I'd like tactics to proc on offhand attacks. We are talking about trash, right? Gimme a few stuns and I won't miss Wail so much.

I'm ok with resistances, absorption, etc. but I want AC to matter.



Random thoughts I know, but you did ask ;-)

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:24 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4296185#post4296185


Excellent post, Voodoogroves.

The solution is not to whine endlessly about how casters need to be nerfed. The balance issues go far deeper than "my class needs buffs, every other class needs nerfs."

(1) Melees don't have enough "cool moves" to pick from. Agreed. Even the PnP designers began to address this with 4th edition and some of the stuff in late 3.5 like Tome of Battle.

(2) AC does not matter.

(3) It seems the only way the Devs can think of to make high end content "challenging" is to add a few zeroes to the hitpoint total of the trash and boss mobs.

Before the blanket instakill immunity was removed, this so-called strategy meant that casters had no way to contribute to a party other than buffs and maybe CC. A maxed-out uber-leet god-sorcerer would run out of spell points long before a trash mob ran out of hit points.

After it was removed, melees felt irrelevant. When it takes 30 minutes to chew through the hitpoints of a trash monster with a greataxe, instakills can feel a bit threatening. But the problem is not casters, the problem is stupid, lazy design of the game. This is not World of *****craft, and I do not want to use scientific notation to describe the hitpoints of my trash MOBs.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:24 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4296257#post4296257


I would like to see the following sorts of things:

1) "Indomitability" Character can use a Damage boost to instead get 20s of immunity to stun/knockback/knockdown/trip. This would give melees an opportunity to deal with giants, air elementals, minotaurs, and the like at times without trivializing these mobs' special abilities.

2) Make feats like Slicing Blow actually worth using.

3) More Debuffs like Improved Sunder & Hamstring.

4) An AoE version of Stunning Blow/Trip/Sap with a long cooldown. Or the ability to apply these effects on glancing blows? Something along those lines.

Essentially, more special attacks and defenses that can be used reliably along with a few special abilities that make you say "clearly this situation is best handled by a warrior" at times.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:25 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4296185#post4296185


Give melees a special attack to interrupt spell casting from monsters (something they were able to do in PnP, btw but can't really do in DDO except to use a stunning blow) on a reasonable re-use timer: Unique ability that would make them desirable against heavy casting monsters (which also are more threatening to caster players due to their ability to lay down dps at range even if the caster is not in melee range and pulls the aggro).

Give melees time based recharges on their boost-type abilities (in the style of paladin smite or monk abundant step). This would allow them to get more uses out of these abilities.

Uncap or raise the cap on vorpal to be more reasonable for epic trash.

Fix the issue where monsters continue and complete actions that should be interrupted by holds, paralysis, stuns, dance, etc. Make monsters not auto-succeed all concentrate checks, and fix the "sliding" mob issue so melees don't have to chase around monsters that are CC'd but still moving due to coding errors.

That's a few of the things I'd suggest off the top of my head.

KillEveryone
02-04-2012, 01:27 AM
That works.

This is a good start.

Quarterling
02-04-2012, 01:37 AM
Yes very nice! http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 01:47 AM
sorry about that, i triple copied one post instead of 3 different ones. it should be fixed now.

Amorenkaire
02-04-2012, 01:49 AM
I'd like to make a suggestion to (perhaps) roll the Rogue Ambush feats in, perhaps baseline if its to be a buff. Such thing would likely work like a toggle stance (for example, Power Attack), and perhaps reduce your sneak attack die by a certain number to caue debilitating effect on your attacks - with a save based either on damage (weapon damage + sneak attack damage only, no elemental riders) or modified by dexterity. Ideas include Staggering Blow (knock an enemy down), cause a stacking bleed, slowing, blinding, etc. The idea of a rogue fighting dirty and hampering his opponents by stabbing them in the eye or kidney fits, and while some of these are special abilities gained by feat, rogues A) Lack the feat slots for them in most build, and B) It would interrupt sneak attack cycle.

Maybe a few debilitating effects will be added in the new poison change, too?

Vengeance777
02-04-2012, 01:52 AM
Remove the cap to vorpal, banish, etc...

Blue bars can instant kill mobs in epics at will. I can't see how even 6 melees swinging vorpals that instakill on a 20 can kill epic mobs as fast as a caster can.

Add more effective aoe attacks for melees. Perhaps as limited use a rest clickies in prestige lines Examples:

An effect that allows a melee to hammer the ground and do an area of effect untyped damage aoe to all those around him. Think LotB's superman landing.

A Sweeping trip or stun effect that hits all enemies in an arc and procs the stun or trips.

Make a Lord of blades style whirlwind attack for tempests and folks with whirlwind attack that hits everything as you spin and move in a straight line for massive amounts of damage. Could even have this one leave you stunned for a couple seconds at the end to balance its power.

Maybe add a coup de grace effect. Make a mob helpless with a stun or trip and you can use an action point to insta kill.

Basically make special power moves for melees that work on timers or action points. That could add a lot of fun to the melee classes and help up their power.

Amorenkaire
02-04-2012, 02:04 AM
New (somewhat) ideas that cropped into my head. PnP had a feat line geared for fighters to help them against spellcaters. I forget the name at the moment, but they could be converted into fighter bonus feats that all melee could take, if they want.

Pierce Concealment - Your attacks ignore concealment modifiers imposed by magical effects (blur, displacement, blink, etc). Reduce your caster level for any spellcasting clas you have by 4.

Name Forgot - Spellcasters cannot make concentration checks to avoid interrupting a spell when you attack (alternatively, increase the DC on top of damage by a healthy amount. Modified from the original version which prevented them from casting defensively againt you). Another -4 CL.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 06:41 AM
Remove the cap to vorpal, banish, etc...

Blue bars can instant kill mobs in epics at will. I can't see how even 6 melees swinging vorpals that instakill on a 20 can kill epic mobs as fast as a caster can.

Add more effective aoe attacks for melees. Perhaps as limited use a rest clickies in prestige lines Examples:

An effect that allows a melee to hammer the ground and do an area of effect untyped damage aoe to all those around him. Think LotB's superman landing.

A Sweeping trip or stun effect that hits all enemies in an arc and procs the stun or trips.

Make a Lord of blades style whirlwind attack for tempests and folks with whirlwind attack that hits everything as you spin and move in a straight line for massive amounts of damage. Could even have this one leave you stunned for a couple seconds at the end to balance its power.

Maybe add a coup de grace effect. Make a mob helpless with a stun or trip and you can use an action point to insta kill.

Basically make special power moves for melees that work on timers or action points. That could add a lot of fun to the melee classes and help up their power.

I like this, the aoe stun (or some type of tactic) would be awesome...even if it was a non-vulnerable stun that was not breakable by being damaged, it would be super delicious.

azrael4h
02-04-2012, 11:27 AM
I'll bite. I'll start with melee survivability first, since I feel this is a key difference in casters and melee. I will, however, ignore AC for the most part, as Madfloyd said there will be a "Let's Talk" on that issue. I do agree it's a major issue, but let's wait for the official thread. We can also agree that Ranged combat is a bit borked, but again, I'm not touching that with this. Only melee.

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Survivability

1 - Move Lesser SF Pots to 150 Silver Flame favor. This makes them more obtainable by your average melee, without all the suffering from doing all the Necropolis quests and Catacombs on elite. You should be able to pull it off by the time you actually start needing such healing. At the same time, make them stack to 100 like regular pots. Finally, remove the penalty, it's not necessary. You already have to suffer the penalty of buying and playing through Catacombs and Necropolis packs. The only thing you could do worse than that is make all characters look like Half-Elves after drinking one.

2 - Give all front-line melee at least 20% Healing Amp from enhancements While this won't affect the vast majority, who think only hjealers should hjeal them, the good melee player (read: not those calling for reducing divines and arcanes to heal, buff, and hold bots) will jump on it. Paladins and Rangers should get up to 30%, as they have more readily available healing abilities, and those classes could use some buffing. Thematically, you can say Rangers get it from learning how to survive alone, and Paladins get the boost from divine providence. 2ap per tier, increasing costs for higher tiers needs to go. For the others, they fight in wars, they should know how to do basic field medical tasks.

3 - Two-Weapon Blocking could get a reduced %-based DR to help with durability of TWF DPS builds. Currently, I don't think there's a single build that takes this feat. Maybe 10% or 15%? This would help Fighter TWF and Rangers more than others, maybe Monks as well, though it should probably not work on unarmed strikes, since Monks get the same benefits from Earth stance.

4 - Improved Shield Mastery should be at least close to Shield Mastery. After all, it's the same cost. At the least, make it 10-15% like TWB above, to make it actually worth burning a feat on.

5 - Barbarians' Improved DR enhancements can be changed to 5% DR per tier, 3 tiers. 6AP fro DR2/- is ridiculous. It should not stack with SM/ISM or TWB feats though.

6 - Cannith Crafting can be used to let us make improved cure potions. We should be able to make not only regular ones, but as far as Cure Critical, Empowered Cures, and maybe even Maximized & Empowered Cure potions. This gives an alternative to suffering through Necropolis and Catacombs series. This should be relatively inexpensive to craft, and make use of some of the collectibles that currently get trashed or left to rot in bags.

7 - Two Weapon Defense needs a boost as well to make it viable. 1 feat for 1 AC is too high. Dodge has much the same problem, though I'll address that in a second. At the same time, we should not further invalidate S&B by making TWF comparable AC wise. Quite frankly, I think we can ditch this, and forget it. Or maybe roll it into enhancements instead. No one would take this feat as it is, and I don't want to buff it into making Shields redundant, particularly since I've buffed TWB to be useful. Alternately, tying in some enhancements to boost this might work. Again, Monks should not be able to benefit from this, as they get WIS to AC already, which compensates.

8 - Dodge costs too much for the current benefits, however part of the AC problem is the sheer number of stacking AC mods we can attach to a character, pushing their AC into stratospheric levels. This wouldn't be an issue, except the devs have historically balanced the game by the top 0.00001% rather than the rest of the player base. Resulting in Mob to-hit being so high past Gianthold that you need an insane level of gear to have viable AC, and even then won't in epics. I would suggest that an enhancement line be added tied to this feat, giving 3 more AC via enhancements.

9 - Healing Amplification is currently available at the lowest level for non-WF at 13. 10% should be craftable for all characters via Cannith Crafting, and we need more, lower-ML 10% and 20% options. I'd suggest adding some named loot to 3 Barrel Cove, Ataraxia, and Searing Heights rares. Maybe even Sharn Syndicate or STK.

10 - In addition, damage absorption items are practically non-existent. Again, some mid-level items with stacking 10% DR would help push melee survivability up. Higher than 10% though should be raid loot. Maybe add 1 item to Chronoscope for super-twink %-based DR, ML5, with 15% or 20% being added to VoN or DQ (though DQ doesn't need any more loot to make it desirable to run!). The same, lesser run, packs like 3 Barrel or Ataraxia should be given priority, but those like Threnal should be left to die. A new, level 12 raid, would work, and annoy some people who think only Level 20+ content should ever be added to the game.

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By giving characters more readily available means of healing, more effective means of healing, and the ability to boost incoming healing to a degree without the high-end gear that it currently entails, smart melee players will be able to survive without a hand-holder much more easily. Those calling for divines to be nothing but heal-bots, and arcanes buff and hold bots, will still be unable to function, but oh well.

By buffing up damage absorption abilities, more melee will be able to take less damage than currently. 10-15% is not a huge number, but when you're taking 50-60 points, it adds up.

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Crowd Control, AoE, and Instant-kills

Front-liners currently have limited CC abilities. DCs on tactical feats are harder to get to viable levels, and they are single-target only, with long enough cool downs that dealing with a larger group is impossible. Whats more, Most classes are feat starved, meaning they only have a weak Trip for personal CC. AoE melee damage is the providence of FB Barbarians. And other than two rare items (HoX wraps and Terror), melees have only target-specific instant-kills (Smiting, Disruption, Banishing).

I do not feel adding more feats would help. Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and Barbarians cannot fit in any more feats. Monks are not exactly flush with free feats. Only Fighters can currently afford to carry multiple tactical feats. This is acceptable, Barbarians are DPS, Paladins and Rangers survivable, Fighters more tactical.

1 - Add 1/2 BaB to tactical feat DCs. Currently it's 10 + STR modifier + item (if applicable). This means in order to have a good DC, you either have to be a raging Barbarian, or use a weapon with a +10 to that feat, weakening your personal dps. This will add up to 10 DC, while very strong an increase, given the long cool downs and single target nature of the feats, I don't think it will over-power melees to have more reliable CC. After all, Command does much the same as Trip, and a skilled Divine can Command two or three mobs before a single Trip cool down is done, with a much higher degree of reliability. This is ignoring Greater Command, which will knock a whole group flat in one cast.

This would put the base DC at 20 for a level 20 pure melee, and should reach 32-35DC on your average first-lifer, assuming around 34-40 STR. They can reach Epic-viable by using a DC-boosting weapon or item. Well geared melees don't need this, but I'm basing my suggestions on the 99%, not the 1% who are already over-geared.

Monk's specific Stunning Fist doesn't need this bump, since it gets Monk level and WIS mod as well.

2 - Halve cool downs on Cleave and Great Cleave. Two feat costs are high enough, this would give melees a bit of short-range AoE capabilities. Alternately, allow Supreme Cleave to be purchasable by all. This would make Barbarians cry, which is always a good thing (emo kids), and give other melee a spammable AoE attack.

3 - Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Whirlwind, and Cleve Blackmore should all work on the offhand for TWF. So should all tactical feats. With 1000pt Chain Lightnings, this is not over-powering melees, though it is giving much more to Fighters than the others.

4 - While Smiting, Disruption, and Banishing weapons were compensated for losing their instant-killing abilities, Vorpals are now vendor trash. Either give them 4d6 Bane damage to targets vulnerable to vorpals, or restore the lost instant-killing ability to Vorpal. The only reason to use an instant-kill is because it's more efficient than pure DPS. If it's not going to kill until after you've already dpsed the target down, then you may as well not have it.

5 - More weapons of different types like Terror or the HoX wraps would also help melees. I would, however, place these of lesser-used weapon types, like Kukris, War Hammers, quarterstaves, and so forth.

6 - On another note, Qstaff fighting, besides being weak even as a Monk or Acrobat, is hurt by the weapons themselves breaking quickly. Up the durability, based on the enchantment level. Making them a double-weapon, as per PnP, and enabling them to gain offhand strikes with the TWF feats would give them a serious bump in effectiveness. This could be granted to Acrobats on the third tier, though I can't see it being over-powered by being widely available.

7 - There are no THF piercing weapons other than a high-level named staff.

8 - Cool downs on CC feats should be revised. Currently, unless you are a Fighter with multiple feats, you're not dropping more than 1 or two mobs before getting overwhelmed. Alternately, offering AoE versions via enhancements after taking Cleave + the appropriate feat would be definitely acceptable.

9 - More Improved Paralyzing weapons would also help, with a DC letting them be useful in epics and other high-end content. Currently, regular Paralyzing loses a lot of effectiveness past Vale, though a Ranger Tempest can be a one-man CC machine on low-Will trash up to that point.

10 - With the above, Paralyzing should be Cannith craftable.

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By lowering Cooldowns on tactical feats, you enable the feat-starved classes like Paladins and Barbarians to have an effective CC option for multiple mobs. Fighters will become kings of CC. Boosting the DCs will make the feats themselves more useful for a larger portion of the population, rather than the exceptionally geared minority. Boosting their AoE capabilities would let them handle larger trash mobs more efficiently. All coupled with the survival changes, would push Melees closer to balance, able to survive on their own and thrive provided a competent player is behind the wheel.

Improving the gear available to offer better CC options for higher-end play, more healing amp at lower levels, greater durability across all levels, and returning melees' instant-killing abilities to them would definitely help.

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There are more things that need to be done. AC needs a rework, and Ranged combat needs a bump as well, at least with bows. Paladins need two of their PrEs reworked for greater appeal, and AP costs rebalanced, and Rangers are definitely hurting as well. Monks could use a light enhancement pass, mostly giving them low level options at all, and opening up some ap. Barbarians could use a new PrE.

voodoogroves
02-04-2012, 11:53 AM
I wouldn't add more to items. Casters need few to really function, and things like damage mitigation/absorption and healing amp don't compete with them for DPS slots. It'd be trivial for a caster to slot for additional damage reduction, harder for a melee to fit it in. If we started stacking those on, we'll need to revisit Grodon9999's "pierced nipple" body slot ideas for melees ... I don't have space on the few melee toons I have.

I would support changing the barb enhanced DR AP to provide a flat absorption, so they could have both a DR and absorb option.

I would support evening out the benefit of Improved Shield Mastery; I'll say it every time it comes up - it's frontloaded and cheap. I wouldn't mind similar feats for armors; these would be things fighters would invest in largely, since they have more feats to spare.

If AC mattered, rangers and possibly rogues would get enough there. If damage reduction/mitigation were possibly you could build a fighter for either AC or reduction. Barbs (who ignore AC largely) could have better in-your-face staying power against physical attacks.

Artificers already can slot the forcefield; that's pretty nifty.

The only class really lacking potentially would be bards, but for those "oh ****" in the middle of it moments, a fast song option to confuse/daze/whatever would give them similar capabilities.

voodoogroves
02-04-2012, 11:57 AM
1 - Add 1/2 BaB to tactical feat DCs. Currently it's 10 + STR modifier + item (if applicable). This means in order to have a good DC, you either have to be a raging Barbarian, or use a weapon with a +10 to that feat, weakening your personal dps. This will add up to 10 DC, while very strong an increase, given the long cool downs and single target nature of the feats, I don't think it will over-power melees to have more reliable CC. After all, Command does much the same as Trip, and a skilled Divine can Command two or three mobs before a single Trip cool down is done, with a much higher degree of reliability. This is ignoring Greater Command, which will knock a whole group flat in one cast.

This would put the base DC at 20 for a level 20 pure melee, and should reach 32-35DC on your average first-lifer, assuming around 34-40 STR. They can reach Epic-viable by using a DC-boosting weapon or item. Well geared melees don't need this, but I'm basing my suggestions on the 99%, not the 1% who are already over-geared.

I think useful DCs are attainable already, esp. with the spare hand. What we need are more options to slot stunning / shatter / vertigo (epic augments, etc.)

Cooldown changes would be nice, as well as some specific multi-target options.

Monk's specific Stunning Fist doesn't need this bump, since it gets Monk level and WIS mod as well.

Half character level; this is why all the clonks are carrying it now.

KillEveryone
02-04-2012, 12:15 PM
I would like palidins to get more lay on hands for the AP spent.

I would also like to see items that give more lay on hands.

azrael4h
02-04-2012, 12:21 PM
I wouldn't add more to items. Casters need few to really function, and things like damage mitigation/absorption and healing amp don't compete with them for DPS slots. It'd be trivial for a caster to slot for additional damage reduction, harder for a melee to fit it in. If we started stacking those on, we'll need to revisit Grodon9999's "pierced nipple" body slot ideas for melees ... I don't have space on the few melee toons I have.


That's true. Though I still advocate for more low-level Heal Amp items. After capping a Cleric and a FvS, I feel it's very very needed on low-level melee (making the dumb ones wear it on the other hand...).



I would support changing the barb enhanced DR AP to provide a flat absorption, so they could have both a DR and absorb option.

I would support evening out the benefit of Improved Shield Mastery; I'll say it every time it comes up - it's frontloaded and cheap. I wouldn't mind similar feats for armors; these would be things fighters would invest in largely, since they have more feats to spare.

If AC mattered, rangers and possibly rogues would get enough there. If damage reduction/mitigation were possibly you could build a fighter for either AC or reduction. Barbs (who ignore AC largely) could have better in-your-face staying power against physical attacks.

Maybe lower SM's benefits, but make ISM equal, giving both feats value. I definitely agree that it's too front-loaded. I'm of the view that there should always be comparable benefit for comparable cost. Combined they should be stronger than currently though, and stronger than comparable efforts for TWF and class % based DR. There has to be some benefit to being a S&B build, and currently the drawbacks outweigh the benefits too much for them to be used outside of specialized content.

Armor Mastery would be nice, but adding more and more feats when Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers have none available to burn puts them further and further behind. I didn't like playing one, but they should still be viable. Perhaps, rather than feats, just give heavier armors a base %DR? Light armors shouldn't get much, maybe 5%, since they'll benefit from Evasion/I Evasion, but 20% for heavy armor and 10% for medium would work. Of course, we start adding in all this %-based Damage reduction, a Heavy Armor S&B build could net some 50% DR. Then again, is that a bad thing? From a divine caster's perspective, no. Gotta do some testing to make sure it's not too powerful.

Maybe Barbarian rage could also grant 1% per CON mod to help buff their durability up some more. For that matter, the static DR doesn't work near as well with the inflated damage numbers anyway. Maybe ditch it for the %-based entirely instead? That would benefit Monks and FvS as well as Barbarians. Or just leave it barbarian-only. Monks and FvS don't really need the buff, and Barbarians are too squishy in my experience.

Every melee should be able to build in a degree of damage mitigation. If anything, Barbarians should be king at damage absorption, since they lack the capability to get a meaningful AC. Fighters are versatile, and should be able to build for it or AC.



Artificers already can slot the forcefield; that's pretty nifty.

The only class really lacking potentially would be bards, but for those "oh ****" in the middle of it moments, a fast song option to confuse/daze/whatever would give them similar capabilities.

I left Artificers out because I view them more as a casting class, with a viable ranged option and AoE dps option, than melee. Bards are the hard one, because they're not near as strong as Artificer as a casting class, but definitely not a strong melee. I'm leaving them out due to a lack of familiarity with them; out of three Bards, the highest I got was 8, and I LRed that one into a pure fighter (TR with some gear, wasn't about to delete). They need love as well.

azrael4h
02-04-2012, 12:25 PM
I think useful DCs are attainable already, esp. with the spare hand. What we need are more options to slot stunning / shatter / vertigo (epic augments, etc.)

Cooldown changes would be nice, as well as some specific multi-target options.

How does the Spare Hand help those who refuse to buy the challenges or run them? You yourself said gear is tight. Now you're saying we need more gear? I'm basing it on the larger population, who doesn't have an epic spare hand and +10 x for everything laying around. And for those, they'll see DCs of roughly 32 up to 38 with basic gear, vs 22-28. That is not viable.



Half character level; this is why all the clonks are carrying it now.

My bad, I thought it was changed to Monk level. Still, it has more pushing it's DC up.

Therrias
02-04-2012, 01:28 PM
Mounted combat!

voodoogroves
02-04-2012, 02:21 PM
[QUOTE=azrael4h;4296796]How does the Spare Hand help those who refuse to buy the challenges or run them? You yourself said gear is tight. Now you're saying we need more gear? I'm basing it on the larger population, who doesn't have an epic spare hand and +10 x for everything laying around. And for those, they'll see DCs of roughly 32 up to 38 with basic gear, vs 22-28. That is not viable. [QUOTE]

Tactics builds should run challenges with their free tokens just for this as it boosts ALL tactics, not just one stun/trip/etc.

A kensai 20 with a starting 16 strength is still going to get decent DCs, probably in the low 30s without much effort or gear ... and that's before using a stunning / whatever item. We don't want to make it harder, but we do have to recognize that anyone really working on tactics is going to be looking at a set of madstones, may get a boost of 4 from Improved Sunder/Trip, may take a race with either a STR bonus or a racial tactics, getting exceptional STR anyway. Yes, casters have it easier, but we shouldn't make it so a first life fresh tactics toon hits a DC 38 naked. What we should do is make sure someone shooting for a mid-40s can do so without completely hurting their DPS.

The other reason it is good is that it means the future *could* have other exceptional tactics items, and I'm willing to give Turbine the benefit of the doubt. Slotting an item to improve what you want as your CORE ability shouldn't be the problem; slotting 3 different ones because you want to trip, stun and sunder with one of them taking directly away from your DPS unless you're rocking an alchemical is the kind of investment we need to simplify.

What I want are more armors and items with tactics boosters beyond Epic Deneith Heavy Chain, Epic Blademark's Docent and the Undying Gaze helm.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 05:12 PM
Mounted combat!

die

Amorenkaire
02-04-2012, 05:18 PM
Mounted combat!

Only if halflings get dinosaurs!

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 06:04 PM
A pally aura with an attack/damage boost would be pretty delicious...just saying.

Souless
02-04-2012, 08:27 PM
A pally aura with an attack/damage boost would be pretty delicious...just saying.

When I rolled through my pally lives....The 1st life while I was learning the class was horrid.

The 2nd life was better when I added rogue and haste boost....

The 3rd was the best when I utilized hunter of the undead to its full potential combined with rogue...

I found my pally build was a better survivor than my barb. Which is what brings me to my suggestion...

Frenzy and Death frenzy need some help.

I think the damage u take while in this mode of attack is disproportionate to the damage output. Consider the 30 hp's damage +the 1d3 x2 for the addition 2-12 and 4-24 +3. The vicious damage while seeming low is not, when u consider the +30 points of damage which on a 600 hp barb is 5% of their hp's. Add to it the fact that mobs r hitting for 50+ and that u have to do the 5% damage to urself every minute to maitain the frenzy. And what u have is a melee hand cuffed to a healer.

I think the Frenzy line should be more like the fighter power surge line. There is no penalty to surging as a fighter. There should be no penalty to fenzying as a barb.

Or if u r dead set on having the frenzy line have drawback, increase the boost to 4-24 + 8-48 and have it add more str.

The Bytcher~

Ps as a side note I like the way u listed ur toons...ur gonna haveta tell me how u did it..so for now:


Souless Bladewind - Xbow Twinkwind - Spectyr - Tazzor Spellfire - Xindao Bladewind - Vampir Nightblade - Valice Icewind - Richgirl Goldenblade

Ascent

KillEveryone
02-04-2012, 09:04 PM
How about the melee boosts regenerate like the cleric undead turns.

furbyoats
02-04-2012, 09:20 PM
how about the melee boosts regenerate like the cleric undead turns.

yes!

Rodasch
02-04-2012, 09:36 PM
How about the melee boosts regenerate like the cleric undead turns.

Yes, This is something I've been suggesting and advocating for a while.

dotHackSign
02-05-2012, 04:38 PM
Only if halflings get dinosaurs!

Is that so they can reach the top shelf?

Amorenkaire
02-05-2012, 04:51 PM
Is that so they can reach the top shelf?

That's what the racial bonus to jump is for. The dinosaur is so that they don't have to dirty their hands with an enemy and feed their fleshrakers at the same time.

dotHackSign
02-05-2012, 04:55 PM
I've posted this elsewhere but I'd like to see a % damage mitigation based on armor type given to melees at starting around the 10th - 12th and maybe another tier at 15th - 17th level. Armor, especially heavy armor looses its usefulness around these levels unless you are specialized as a tank. This is why we see so many pajama wearing melees. Most do this for evasion which is a large advantage over heavy armor.

Would you rather have the bullet proof vest with the ceramic plate, or a t-shirt and your agility? Which do you think for mitigate more damage?

voodoogroves
02-05-2012, 05:08 PM
This is exactly what DR represents- and their are armors that provide it - as well as AC ... which doesn't mean "was touched by the weapon" but rather "was touched by the weapon with a solid enough hit to do damage"

PNP has Touch AC, which represents the difference between merely connecting and doing damage. Monks are good at both, but a fighter in full plate and shield would have a great normal AC even at 1st level ... but a poor touch AC. DDO handles these attacks by keyboard dodging.

dotHackSign
02-05-2012, 06:11 PM
This is exactly what DR represents- and their are armors that provide it - as well as AC ... which doesn't mean "was touched by the weapon" but rather "was touched by the weapon with a solid enough hit to do damage"

PNP has Touch AC, which represents the difference between merely connecting and doing damage. Monks are good at both, but a fighter in full plate and shield would have a great normal AC even at 1st level ... but a poor touch AC. DDO handles these attacks by keyboard dodging.

Only "some" armors, even heavy armors have DR.

If we go by "keyboard dodging" then the Dex bonus shouldn't apply to "AC", it should increase movement rate, tumble and jump so that attacks can be "Dodged" by the player in real time... I don't think this is suited for an environment affected so much by network latency and client/server syncing.

furbyoats
02-06-2012, 08:12 PM
Only "some" armors, even heavy armors have DR.

If we go by "keyboard dodging" then the Dex bonus shouldn't apply to "AC", it should increase movement rate, tumble and jump so that attacks can be "Dodged" by the player in real time... I don't think this is suited for an environment affected so much by network latency and client/server syncing.

I would think that the heavier the armor, the more inherent DR. I thought that only specific armors have some types of DR. Such as spearblock etc. I could be wrong though.

dotHackSign
02-07-2012, 08:05 AM
I would think that the heavier the armor, the more inherent DR. I thought that only specific armors have some types of DR. Such as spearblock etc. I could be wrong though.

You're correct. Right now only adamantine, or items with specific DR qualities have some type of damage mitigation. Other armor, like the dragon touched heavy plate, has none.

So for example, the dragon touched heavy plate has the same damage mitigation as a non-magical robe. The difference between them is suppose to be the AC bonus. However, as you approach level 20, the AC bonus of any of the high level armor doesn't really do much for you. For the most part, its better to take a splash of an evasion class and wear pajamas and have your dex bonus make up the AC difference. The only exception being a well built tank that gears and takes enhancements/feats specifically to top out AC.

I think adding some benefit to wearing armor for high level toons might help balance the melees out with the blue bar crowd. After all, the melees have to be in close to deal damage, so they need to be more robust.

This would also help healers avoid using so many pots to keep the melees on their feet.

furbyoats
02-07-2012, 01:49 PM
You're correct. Right now only adamantine, or items with specific DR qualities have some type of damage mitigation. Other armor, like the dragon touched heavy plate, has none.

So for example, the dragon touched heavy plate has the same damage mitigation as a non-magical robe. The difference between them is suppose to be the AC bonus. However, as you approach level 20, the AC bonus of any of the high level armor doesn't really do much for you. For the most part, its better to take a splash of an evasion class and wear pajamas and have your dex bonus make up the AC difference. The only exception being a well built tank that gears and takes enhancements/feats specifically to top out AC.

I think adding some benefit to wearing armor for high level toons might help balance the melees out with the blue bar crowd. After all, the melees have to be in close to deal damage, so they need to be more robust.

This would also help healers avoid using so many pots to keep the melees on their feet.

Indeed, and maintain a harsh ASF penalty for the high % damage mitigation armors.