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Kmnh
02-01-2012, 06:43 PM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

Pape_27
02-01-2012, 06:49 PM
/not signed


Go visit fred and swap it out if you think its op.

morticianjohn
02-01-2012, 06:59 PM
This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing.

This may be true, but is the alternative (making rolls for concentration checks) any better?

Also you'd likely have a no fail concentration check against regular mobs so even if there were 30 mobs hitting you if you had shield mastery, cavalry plate, FvS DR and 60+ concentration you would be just fine.

Kmnh
02-01-2012, 07:03 PM
This may be true, but is the alternative (making rolls for concentration checks) any better?

Also you'd likely have a no fail concentration check against regular mobs so even if there were 30 mobs hitting you if you had shield mastery, cavalry plate, FvS DR and 60+ concentration you would be just fine.

At that point it's a build goal, something you can achieve over time. And you can randomly roll a 1 and fail.

Autolycus
02-01-2012, 07:08 PM
/not signed

With the amped up damage in DDO, you wouldn't be able to cast at end game.

If this change were made, I'd dump Quicken and tell everyone to do their own healing with pots.

mobrien316
02-01-2012, 07:11 PM
Seriously?

Don't turn on Quicken if you think it is ridiculously overpowered. It's as easy as that.

LordRavnos
02-01-2012, 07:14 PM
At that point it's a build goal, something you can achieve over time. And you can randomly roll a 1 and fail.

actually not true, skills do not auto fail on a 1, I have rolled a 1 on my arty and still disabled traps before. Its part of the PnP rules that was directly put into the game, if I remember right skills and ability checks are the only thing that can not auto fail on a 1

Aaxeyu
02-01-2012, 07:15 PM
/signed

Kmnh
02-01-2012, 07:16 PM
The issue is not "it's overpower". It's not. As morticianjohn pointed out, it won't change how you play the game if you are being nice.

It encourages griefing. Letting people die under red alert is cheaper, easier and more efficient than playing as a party.

morticianjohn
02-01-2012, 07:18 PM
At that point it's a build goal, something you can achieve over time. And you can randomly roll a 1 and fail.

not if rolling a 1 is actually a concentration sucess.

However, there would be situations where incoming damage would be higher than your ability to get a concentration score high enough. In those situations the quest would be auto failure. An example of this would be MA when you're hitting the crystals and the lightning damage is hitting for 80-120 a pop.

Kmnh
02-01-2012, 07:19 PM
not if rolling a 1 is actually a concentration sucess.

However, there would be situations where incoming damage would be higher than your ability to get a concentration score high enough. In those situations the quest would be auto failure. An example of this would be MA when you're hitting the crystals and the lightning damage is hitting for 80-120 a pop.

As far as I can tell, having people actually pay attention to the pattern of the lightning floors in MA is a gameplay improvement.

morticianjohn
02-01-2012, 07:31 PM
As far as I can tell, having people actually pay attention to the pattern of the lightning floors in MA is a gameplay improvement.

I didn't know there was a pattern. I always just ran from crystal to crystal and healed through the lightning damage. Maybe that is saying something in favor of your point....

Still there are other situations where it would just be crazy to try and heal through. For example if I'm tanking the LoB I can't heal myself while he's hitting me without quicken on. I'd have to use mass cures on epic velah.

It would be like playing an entirely different game.....

could be a nice change but I would fear for this one that too many people would not enjoy it the added chance for failures.

Eladiun
02-01-2012, 07:32 PM
/not signed.

justagame
02-01-2012, 08:02 PM
The issue is not "it's overpower". It's not. As morticianjohn pointed out, it won't change how you play the game if you are being nice.

It encourages griefing. Letting people die under red alert is cheaper, easier and more efficient than playing as a party.

Wait, just because some people can grief (and I've never seen someone grief others intentionally this way), let's get rid of the feat for EVERYONE?

You've got to be kidding.

How about this: If someone griefs your party intentionally, don't group them, report it, and move on. Don't be so hasty to ask for game changes that affect a whole lot more than the specific, narrow, situation you are worried about. That is unbelievably short-sighted, and shows little consideration for how most people play the game.

pSINNa
02-01-2012, 08:43 PM
I imagine a lot of clerics and fvs characters would be labelled "bad healers" from raid fails if this feat did not exist.

I'm thinking tod pt3 when an orthon spawns on top of the healer and strikes while he/she is throwing the tank that heal.

When harry launches that spate of meteor showers just as everyone's hp has dipped just below the 1/2 way mark.

Any many other scenarios that would be disastrous for an interupted heal without quicken running.

/not signed.

Luis_Velderve
02-01-2012, 09:31 PM
Here we have the top 5

1) Remove the "no concentration checks" property from the Quicken Spell feat

2) Cat guided missiles

3) Pet Rock

4) Rice Paper Umbrella

5) Ford Pinto

WruntJunior
02-01-2012, 09:33 PM
There are few ways as quick to make divines disappear as to effectively remove quicken...casters too, probably. A concentration in the 60s/70s is useless when you're taking >60 damage a hit.

English_Warrior
02-01-2012, 09:38 PM
This may be the worst suggestion I have ever seen posted in the forums.

You are advocating for all spell based healing (heck...all spell casting period) to be just about useless during end game fights.

Calebro
02-01-2012, 09:44 PM
Remove the "no concentration checks" property from the Quicken Spell feat

Tell us all exactly what point there would be to the feat even existing then. You aren't asking for the "no concentration checks" property to be removed from Quicken. You're asking that Quicken be removed from the game, because that's the entire *point* of Quicken.

Aaxeyu
02-02-2012, 04:44 AM
Tell us all exactly what point there would be to the feat even existing then. You aren't asking for the "no concentration checks" property to be removed from Quicken. You're asking that Quicken be removed from the game, because that's the entire *point* of Quicken.

Quicken would still make you cast spells faster.

I think this is a great idea, not because of "griefing" but because it would make casters less of a one-man-army.

sephiroth1084
02-02-2012, 05:25 AM
I'd rather see Quicken become an extra 20-30 SP per cast, to reflect how powerful it actually is, possibly pushing some people to turn it off on occasion and actually invest in Concentration.

Otherwise, leave it alone. There are too many places in the game that rely heavily on being able to get spells off without making Concentration checks.

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 06:10 AM
I'd rather see Quicken become an extra 20-30 SP per cast, to reflect how powerful it actually is, possibly pushing some people to turn it off on occasion and actually invest in Concentration.

Otherwise, leave it alone. There are too many places in the game that rely heavily on being able to get spells off without making Concentration checks.

Quicken is too cheap.

It needs to exist, but it should be more expensive.

Bacab
02-02-2012, 06:41 AM
I don't like this idea...

I am like Coit (PSinna)...I am picturing get whacked by an Orthon in a ToD as I am trying to heal a tank. OR Harry doing that "I turn around because I have random aggro" and swiping at me as I am trying to cast mass heal.

For the record...I max out concentration and wear a +6 Exceptional Con SKill Shroud Item (Earth Grab) because quicken does not effect Scrolls. My point...no one should dump CONcentration.

As far as this being a way to nerf casters...I like soloing a lot on my Casters (Arcane and Divines). Why should my playstyle be ruined because you do not like it?

I don't like dual-wielding..I prefer big weapons...I think the Khopesh is an abomination (it was not made correctly)...but you/I can not scream about having those things removed just because *WE* do not like them.

To the OP...you can just choose to not use it. There are also RP guilds btw. I mean you can dislike "Metagamers" and you can choose to not play with them. But please do ask the DEVs to remove people's ability to choose how *THEY* want to play. You can *CHOOSE* to not play with them.

BTW Kmnh...I don't want this to come across as an attack. I read things you have to say about bards and such and I usually agree with you 100%. I am also sure you are a really great player and are knowledgable. I just do not agree with you on this issue/idea.

grgurius
02-02-2012, 06:44 AM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

What kind of insane logic is that, quicken encourages griefing so it should be removed.

mobrien316
02-02-2012, 09:15 AM
What kind of insane logic is that, quicken encourages griefing so it should be removed.

Exactly.

If you play as a jerk, you will try griefing other players. If you are not a jerk, it doesn't matter.

I doubt there are good players out there who suddenly give in to the temptation of griefing a bunch of other players because Quicken exists.

Truga
02-02-2012, 09:23 AM
Quicken would still make you cast spells faster.

I think this is a great idea, not because of "griefing" but because it would make casters less of a one-man-army.

It'd just make me drop webs before I run in, rather than after. Other than that, no difference.

danotmano1998
02-02-2012, 09:31 AM
The issue is not "it's overpower". It's not. As morticianjohn pointed out, it won't change how you play the game if you are being nice.

It encourages griefing. Letting people die under red alert is cheaper, easier and more efficient than playing as a party.

Wow!

Um.. not sure how you came about this conclusion.
I must admit, it's a very long stretch from "Cast spells more quickly without failing" to "Just let everybody die because it's easier and more efficient".

:confused:

If you're running into people like that, quicken isn't the problem.
Your squelch list is too short!

Lavek
02-02-2012, 09:37 AM
doesnt it concern you more that you were able to "tank" 15 trash mobs and a boss...

enemies are a **** and should use skills like trip, stunning blow to not let you survive in situation like that in the first place


also lol on "grief"

/not signed

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 09:39 AM
/Signed. But only if the spell point cost is removed.

Quicken is OP, all my casters have it because it is ubber, too ubber. We'd have a better balanced game without it.

Cyr
02-02-2012, 09:39 AM
What a strange reason to ask for this change...

I think it would be a good change, with the caveat of some bonus to concentration checks TBD, because it would provide more risk for self healers.

Cyr
02-02-2012, 09:40 AM
/Signed. But only if the spell point cost is removed.

Quicken is OP, all my casters have it because it is ubber, too ubber. We'd have a better balanced game without it.

This would work too.

Thrudh
02-02-2012, 09:42 AM
2) Cat guided missiles


I had to google that one.... Nice! :)

PNellesen
02-02-2012, 09:42 AM
/not signed

yuh8clerics?

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 09:46 AM
/Signed. But only if the spell point cost is removed.

Quicken is OP, all my casters have it because it is ubber, too ubber. We'd have a better balanced game without it.

Nah ... it needs to just have a higher cost like in PNP.

Maximize is a +3 CL feat in PNP. Quicken is +4. It shouldn't cost 10 SP, it should cost 30 in DDO. AT 10 it's freaking free. At 30 it becomes something you have to think about.

Truga
02-02-2012, 09:47 AM
Nah ... it needs to just have a higher cost like in PNP.

Maximize is a +3 CL feat in PNP. Quicken is +4. It shouldn't cost 10 SP, it should cost 30 in DDO. AT 10 it's freaking free. At 30 it becomes something you have to think about.

This.

EvilI
02-02-2012, 09:50 AM
If you want to discourage griefing, advocate the removal of dungeon alert instead. I can not think of a single thing that hurts gameplay more than that.

Also, pre-emptively /not singed on any further nerfs of the primary healing classes. Hard enough to fill PuGs when I want to play my non-healers as it stands.

DragonMageT
02-02-2012, 09:56 AM
/not signed

A change that so heavily penalizes 1 specific class/build is not good for game.
Healers (clerics and heal spec'd FVS) would be hit the hardest, casters would adjust with CC, displace, etc.

Anyone remember running Bastion right when Mod 9 came out without quicken on your healer.
Eye opening (quicken wasn't normally a taken feat for healers) experience

When the obvious is looking you straight in the face...just do the obvious.
1 click, problem solved.

Thrudh
02-02-2012, 09:57 AM
Nah ... it needs to just have a higher cost like in PNP.

Maximize is a +3 CL feat in PNP. Quicken is +4. It shouldn't cost 10 SP, it should cost 30 in DDO. AT 10 it's freaking free. At 30 it becomes something you have to think about.

I could get behind this change.

Thrudh
02-02-2012, 09:58 AM
/not signed

A change that so heavily penalizes 1 specific class/build is not good for game.
Healers (clerics and heal spec'd FVS) would be hit the hardest, casters would adjust with CC, displace, etc.

Maybe make it only cost 10 SP (like now) for healing spells, but 30 SP for all other spells?

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 10:03 AM
Maybe make it only cost 10 SP (like now) for healing spells, but 30 SP for all other spells?

Quickened heals/cures make you borderline indestructible.

DragonMageT
02-02-2012, 10:34 AM
Quickened heals/cures make you borderline indestructible.

And non quicken heals will lead to many, many, wipes especially in epics/elite.
Which will lead to "gawd, you suck as a healer" type statements.

The /ragequit and forum rage..I can see it now. :)


Maybe make it only cost 10 SP (like now) for healing spells, but 30 SP for all other spells?

That's one possible solution.

Edit: I still think 1 click answer for those that wish to run that way, is the fastest/simplest fix...points finger at OP

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 10:36 AM
If you want to really bias team play, make it cost 30 for all spells ... EXCEPT mass cure/heal/repair. Those can cost 10.


It's cheaper if you're healing everyone else too. Bastages.

pSINNa
02-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Quick little piece of food for thought.

How many people advocating changes to quicken have done a lot of LoB?

How well do you think your healers will do in this raid without quicken? Run Epic LoB much?

Same question.

How about, we raise the spell point cost for using quicken. Going to have an easy time finding healers (yes, even guildies) willing to run those raids now? How about elite vod, elite shroud - we do want to run these raids right?

All my healers (i still have a few left, though not as many as i used to run) have maxed concentration of course with additional concentration boosting greensteel and other items, and i think they'd have trouble, you see, my divines fight while they heal. Remember that a healer that only heals - hides somewhere and heals, is "a waste of a party slot". How do you think they'll do under this particular regime of changes.

Now, make no mistake, whatever change comes my characters will adapt and cope, but really think about what you're asking for, especially if it's arbitrarily raising the bar because you've farmed it all, beat it all, and are bored.

Really think about it genuinely before changing the face of the game like this from sheer enui.

I'll go even further, how about, you tell me how this change will benefit the game, what we'll all gain from this change, how grouping and raiding will become more common and more fun, and how the magical mythical balance people reference oh so often on these forums will finally come to pass once this change has been made.

Come on, convince me.

Kmnh
02-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Quick little piece of food for thought.

How many people advocating changes to quicken have done a lot of LoB?

How well do you think your healers will do in this raid without quicken? Run Epic LoB much?



7 completions if I'm counting correctly. The only major change is that you need someone to heal the dog kiter during blades. Oh, and you don't want a favored soul to tank.

epic LOB healing comes mostly from scrolls , it requires a concentration check already.

Aaxeyu
02-02-2012, 10:44 AM
And non quicken heals will lead to many, many, wipes especially in epics/elite.
Which will lead to "gawd, you suck as a healer" type statements.

The /ragequit and forum rage..I can see it now. :)

Why do you care if some poor fool think you are a bad healer?


More wipes is not a bad thing.
Also consider that the current endgame is the way it is much because of quicken and other overpowered aspects of healing and casting.
With quicken you can heal through pretty much anything.

pSINNa
02-02-2012, 10:46 AM
7 completions if I'm counting correctly. The only major change is that you need someone to heal the dog kiter during blades. Oh, and you don't want a favored soul to tank.

epic LOB healing comes mostly from scrolls , it requires a concentration check already.

Yes, i think we may all know that (though you may notice your healers blue bars slowly depleting during the course of that raid for some unknown reason :P), you haven't convinced me yet, read the entire post please, come on, tell me how this will improve my ddo experience.

pSINNa
02-02-2012, 10:48 AM
Why do you care if some poor fool think you are a bad healer?


More wipes is not a bad thing.
Also consider that the current endgame is the way it is much because of quicken and other overpowered aspects of healing and casting.
With quicken you can heal through pretty much anything.

Again, nice pick-a-part, i'm still waiting for someone to tell me how this will improve the game, what positive benefit it give us all in our daily raiding/questing with friends and with new people.

Anytime now...

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 10:54 AM
Quick little piece of food for thought.

How many people advocating changes to quicken have done a lot of LoB?

Me.


How well do you think your healers will do in this raid without quicken? Run Epic LoB much?



Quicken affects my scrolls?

People keep complaining this game is too easy have no issues running around with self-healing casters with un-limited blue-bar. This would add some real challenge to the game.

Kmnh
02-02-2012, 10:55 AM
Yes, i think we may all know that (though you may notice your healers blue bars slowly depleting during the course of that raid for some unknown reason :P), you haven't convinced me yet, read the entire post please, come on, tell me how this will improve my ddo experience.

I usually play my Favored soul on LoB :)

Some ways the gameplay will improve:

- Setting up a situation where everyone takes damage and hopes for the best becomes a bad idea.

- Casters won't be able to tank that easily. Soloing was a lot more fun when I had to stay away from the bosses. Grouping with casters would be a lot more fun if there was at least something for the melees to do.

- The "kite the mobs through a symbol of death, heal through the abuse, implosion" strategy will either disappear or be used more carefully. Same goes for arcanes and wails.

Chai
02-02-2012, 10:57 AM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

All them mobs needed to do was cast one hold on you after a dispell and you would have been done dancin.

This is a perfect example of the AI being stupid enough to be strangled with a cordless phone benefitting casters a heck of alot more than it benefits melee.

DA shouldnt be "red alert = movement debuff" - DA should be "mobs start spamming dispells + mobility reduction effect on the person who caused DA" (not the entire group) - If you run in there and pull all those mobs on you, you would pay the price, and your group would /headesk at the really bad move you just made that got you killed, heh.

Quicken would not save you if the mobs had a higher IQ than /autofollow and attack, /repeat.

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 10:58 AM
Why do you care if some poor fool think you are a bad healer?


More wipes is not a bad thing.
Also consider that the current endgame is the way it is much because of quicken and other overpowered aspects of healing and casting.
With quicken you can heal through pretty much anything.

And without quicken they wouldn't have to make some encounters so gosh-darned silly to present a challenge to the over-powered classes in this game.

Krago
02-02-2012, 10:59 AM
The issue is not "it's overpower". It's not. As morticianjohn pointed out, it won't change how you play the game if you are being nice.

It encourages griefing. Letting people die under red alert is cheaper, easier and more efficient than playing as a party.

That is true regardless of your metamagic feat you are speaking about. It will always be cheaper to heal yourself rather than the party.

DragonMageT
02-02-2012, 11:03 AM
Why do you care if some poor fool think you are a bad healer?


More wipes is not a bad thing.
Also consider that the current endgame is the way it is much because of quicken and other overpowered aspects of healing and casting.
With quicken you can heal through pretty much anything.

Reading fail...I didn't say my healer or that I cared :P
I will adjust, just like I have in the past.

So yet another thread about nerf the blue bars instead of pump up the melees.

Depends on the number of wipes and how it affects the casual player / pug groups/ new players.
So yes, more wipes could be a bad thing that would target a specific demographic of the player base.

Right in the middle of the cross-hairs...is the healing class.

pSINNa
02-02-2012, 11:05 AM
Me.


Quicken affects my scrolls?

People keep complaining this game is too easy have no issues running around with self-healing casters with un-limited blue-bar. This would add some real challenge to the game.

Yes, i noticed your posts, and was a little suprised, knowing of course that you've run with the odd "Coit" toon, and also knowing you tend to favour running your ranger splash guy (i don't think i can name him without breaking the ToS stuff).

Look, if you really want this change, then convince me how it'll make things better - maybe you'd have to describe your "perfect DDO experience" and how this moves us closer to it, but make no mistake, it would be a major change.

There is less then 5% of players in this game that beleive it's "too easy". I am ambivilant myself, having already climbed my mountains in game (solo raids, speed TR-ing, speed raid/gs/epic gearing toons, new player quest/raid mentoring, played and enjoyed every class, and most every race, just can't bring myself to helf, lol).

But i'm not bored, and i still enjoy playing, though i can honestly say that everytime someone advocates raising the bar for the class subset (divines) i enjoy playing the most i get a little dull, a little less motivated to jump on that pug raid, a little less excited about running on elite or epic, and a little tired at the constant wave of change that keeps springing from the seeds of other peoples boredem.

My final word on this, as Crowley said, "do what thou wilt".

Coit out~

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm /signing to remove concentration checks and make it a free speed boost only.

I'm /notsigning the idea to triple the sp cost, because this unfortunately penalizes clerics/wizards more than sorcs/fvs do to the sp disparity. And if anything, sorcs/fvs would need to get kicked down a notch, not the other way around.

I do think we need a clicky from somewhere, an oh $hit clicky, that gives you a "steady spell-casting" ten-second buff that makes you immune to concentration checks.

The bottom line is that supposedly squishy classes really shouldn't be the most survivable, by far.

But, and this is a huge but, I think the interrupt mechanic should be changed. If you're interrupted, you should be able to instantly cast a new spell, not wait for the entire mass heal animation before you can cast a mass cure to keep your group alive while you try another mass heal.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 11:18 AM
A couple more thoughts:

1) It has always bothered me that a party in this game never has to protect the healer. No one needs to yell, "mobs on the healer!" and go intim, CC them. Everyone can go along on their merry way, with an eye on their kill count, no strategy needed, solely because a healer can always keep themselves and everyone up with quickened heals. The only exception is the very rare enemy who will stunning blow/trip them. Very rare.

2) Maybe using quicken could add 5 points to your concentration score?

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 11:19 AM
Yes, i noticed your posts, and was a little suprised, knowing of course that you've run with the odd "Coit" toon, and also knowing you tend to favour running your ranger splash guy (i don't think i can name him without breaking the ToS stuff).

I also play a Pale master, A Pure 20 healing bard, and a Cleric. I have my share of casters that I'm probably on them more than anything else.



Look, if you really want this change, then convince me how it'll make things better - maybe you'd have to describe your "perfect DDO experience" and how this moves us closer to it, but make no mistake, it would be a major change.

There is less then 5% of players in this game that beleive it's "too easy". I am ambivilant myself, having already climbed my mountains in game (solo raids, speed TR-ing, speed raid/gs/epic gearing toons, new player quest/raid mentoring, played and enjoyed every class, and most every race, just can't bring myself to helf, lol).

But i'm not bored, and i still enjoy playing, though i can honestly say that everytime someone advocates raising the bar for the class subset (divines) i enjoy playing the most i get a little dull, a little less motivated to jump on that pug raid, a little less excited about running on elite or epic, and a little tired at the constant wave of change that keeps springing from the seeds of other peoples boredem.

My final word on this, as Crowley said, "do what thou wilt".

Coit out~

Caster are OP.

They are not OP because of their offense. Please do not nerf them

Casters are OP because of their Defense. Quickened heal/reconstruct make you un-killable as long as you have SP and you have unlimited SP in DDO thanks to pots and other stuff.

OP classes are bad, class balance and the need for forced cooperation is good.

Nerfing quicken will do this.

Monkey_Archer
02-02-2012, 11:25 AM
The more I think about it the more I like this idea. There could be a few issues in certain quests/raid healing situations where it may cause problems (eVON/eDQ comes to mind) but I think it could be worked around and problem quests could be balanced around it.

/signed

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 11:42 AM
Caster are OP.

They are not OP because of their offense. Please do not nerf them.

They are OP if anything because they can do BOTH; invest everything in offense and minimal self heal is still pretty darn good.

I think you can do quite a bit in balancing the costs, both in static (AP, feats) and live (SP, stancing, whatever).

justagame
02-02-2012, 11:50 AM
A couple more thoughts:

1) It has always bothered me that a party in this game never has to protect the healer. No one needs to yell, "mobs on the healer!" and go intim, CC them. Everyone can go along on their merry way, with an eye on their kill count, no strategy needed, solely because a healer can always keep themselves and everyone up with quickened heals. The only exception is the very rare enemy who will stunning blow/trip them. Very rare.

2) Maybe using quicken could add 5 points to your concentration score?

Wow. Just wow. So, in your view, a cleric shouldn't be a remotely powerful character, just a healing pez dispenser who is otherwise helpless?

While DDO =/= PnP, there is a reason why I find myself appreciating where the game follows the spirit of DnD, and not the spirit of other MMOs.

The divine class hate/envy in this and other threads just continues to baffle me. Why is it so wrong that a class with strong healing abilities is more survivable than those without?

I have a simpler suggestion, one that cuts to the chase of all these threads: Call it "defang the healers". First, let's just eliminate the overhead of having two classes, FVS and cleric, and just make one, and call it "Healer". Second, let's get rid of their offensive spells, that's what wizards and sorcs are for. Also, make their BAB more like that of wizards, take away any sort of weapon proficiency, we don't want them trying to do the jobs of melees. That way, they can be focused on healing. Better still, give their healing spells a penalty when used on themselves, to make sure they are focused on healing ME. If they are in trouble or are attacked, it should be up to the group whether or not to rescue them. They are, after all, just in the party to stay out of the way and spam heals until the folks actually playing the game have killed the bad guys.

Kmnh
02-02-2012, 11:56 AM
Wow. Just wow. So, in your view, a cleric shouldn't be a remotely powerful character, just a healing pez dispenser who is otherwise helpless?


You are not losing any offensive power. You can still go crazy with slay living, destruction, cometfall, bladebarrier and the like. If anything, this change would make it harder to play the "sit back and heal" reactive style and promote more proactive strategies.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 11:56 AM
Wow. Just wow. So, in your view, a cleric shouldn't be a remotely powerful character, just a healing pez dispenser who is otherwise helpless?


Wow, no, so wrong it's hard to find out where to start.

Divines have amazing offensive abilities. They can instakill, blade barrier kite, CC... do it all. What people are asking for in this thread is a CHANCE that their spell will fail if they are taking direct damage.

In a party situation, this would mean, that if mobs are attacking the divine/arcane, any caster really, that character would likely want some support to neutralize the threats. Basic party tactics are meatshields take the hits. We've been able to ignore that basic tactic because of the hugely imbalancing nature of quicken.

This would NOT nerf divines/arcanes in terms of their destructive power. Good players (including me) will still be able to solo many difficult quests, because frankly, it's not hard to get out of the line of fire for a moment to get off a quickened heal.

grats to the op for finding the real silver bullet in balancing casters/melee.

Oh and btw, this is not the end of tank builds like the soul survivor. It just takes better gameplay and timing to make sure your self-heals aren't interrupted.

Anything that encourages good group tactics is a big +1 from me.

slimkj
02-02-2012, 11:58 AM
I think this is a case of poor execution. There are other ways to sort out the problems you think there are with the game. I don't think this a good idea with the content structured as is.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:00 PM
I think this is a case of poor execution. There are other ways to sort out the problems you think there are with the game. I don't think this a good idea with the content structured as is.

Examples, please? I can't think of any place where this would do anything but help the defensive balancing between melees and casters.

PNellesen
02-02-2012, 12:00 PM
I have a simpler suggestion, one that cuts to the chase of all these threads: Call it "defang the healers". First, let's just eliminate the overhead of having two classes, FVS and cleric, and just make one, and call it "Healer". Second, let's get rid of their offensive spells, that's what wizards and sorcs are for. Also, make their BAB more like that of wizards, take away any sort of weapon proficiency, we don't want them trying to do the jobs of melees. That way, they can be focused on healing. Better still, give their healing spells a penalty when used on themselves, to make sure they are focused on healing ME. If they are in trouble or are attacked, it should be up to the group whether or not to rescue them. They are, after all, just in the party to stay out of the way and spam heals until the folks actually playing the game have killed the bad guys.

Please don't say this, even sarcastically. They might take you seriously! :eek:

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Please don't say this, even sarcastically. They might take you seriously! :eek:

It's just a silly thread derail. Everyone loves how divines work in this game. They are a powerhouse and rightfully so. But, quicken has made divines/self-healing arcanes FAR more defensively survivable than any other class. Their offense is not the issue at all.

justagame
02-02-2012, 12:04 PM
If the cleric was meant to stand back and heal the group (or cast) from out of harm's way...

Why are both tiers of the PRE centered on the caster?
Why is the FVS aura centered on the caster (although some aspects can be centered on someone else)?

What your're suggesting is changing the fundamental nature of the class. And if you get your wish, don't be surprised when you can't find as many people to play them anymore.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:10 PM
If the cleric was meant to stand back and heal the group (or cast) from out of harm's way...

Why are both tiers of the PRE centered on the caster?
Why is the FVS aura centered on the caster (although some aspects can be centered on someone else)?

What your're suggesting is changing the fundamental nature of the class. And if you get your wish, don't be surprised when you can't find as many people to play them anymore.

Not at all. I will continue to melee and cast on my FvS, but when I need a cast to be uninterruptable, instead of relying on my iWin quicken feat, I will use tactics (jumping, CC, running around, etc...), just like the lesser classes have to, in order to get off my heal spell.

I, personally, will still get in harm's way all the time. But, I just won't be BY FAR the most survivable class in harm's way anymore. That is fun.

danotmano1998
02-02-2012, 12:11 PM
A couple more thoughts:

1) It has always bothered me that a party in this game never has to protect the healer. No one needs to yell, "mobs on the healer!" and go intim, CC them. Everyone can go along on their merry way, with an eye on their kill count, no strategy needed, solely because a healer can always keep themselves and everyone up with quickened heals. The only exception is the very rare enemy who will stunning blow/trip them. Very rare.

Im not sure what kind of pugs you're doing, but that is not the case in any that I play with.
Either the healer doesn't need protection because:
A) They are killing things,
or
B) They are not killing things, but simply standing back and casting heals. (Which draws no aggro)



2) Maybe using quicken could add 5 points to your concentration score?

Have you been in any epic quests?
When you're taking 100's of damage per hit?



Let me offer you a counter suggestion to nerfing quicken.
How about: Giving heal kits the ability to actually HEAL? (Based on skill points in it)
or
Giving non-umd characters a potion that heals more than 1% of their health?
(As suggested in a zillion other threads. No, Im not counting silver flame pots.)
or
Giving paladins a minor healing aura?


IMO, the problem is NOT quicken!
The problem is that arcanes and divines have the best healing abilities.

Giving other classes a little boost is what is needed here. NOT nerfing others.

Riggs
02-02-2012, 12:14 PM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

Clearly, you are trolling, and/or simply declaring yourself to be a griefer - which is bannable in DDO.

Either way - you are clearly playing the wrong game if this is your main source of enjoyment.

slimkj
02-02-2012, 12:20 PM
Examples, please? I can't think of any place where this would do anything but help the defensive balancing between melees and casters.
Removing quicken will not help balance casters to melees with the way content currently approaches players, and players currently approach content.

It's not impossible but it's a lot of work and a long way round to the end result desired, in my opinion.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:20 PM
Im not sure what kind of pugs you're doing, but that is not the case in any that I play with.
Either the healer doesn't need protection because:
A) They are killing things,
or
B) They are not killing things, but simply standing back and casting heals. (Which draws no aggro)



Have you been in any epic quests?
When you're taking 100's of damage per hit?



Let me offer you a counter suggestion to nerfing quicken.
How about: Giving heal kits the ability to actually HEAL? (Based on skill points in it)
or
Giving non-umd characters a potion that heals more than 1% of their health?
(As suggested in a zillion other threads. No, Im not counting silver flame pots.)
or
Giving paladins a minor healing aura?


IMO, the problem is NOT quicken!
The problem is that arcanes and divines have the best healing abilities.

Giving other classes a little boost is what is needed here. NOT nerfing others.

While not bad suggestions here, to be honest, they will do almost nothing to re-balance the defensive disparity. Quickened self-heals are an iWin button, and everyone who has played through this entire game (yes, I play all epics) knows that.

The healer, in a raid setting, without quickened self-heals, would need protection if spawns aggro him/her. Or if their implosion DC is too low, the mobs save, and then aggro. Yes, good party tactics makes a better group experience. That would be fun and win, much more fun that iWin quicken.

Also, changing healing kits and pallies into minor healing for classes does NOTHING to balance a quickened heal with anything. That has to be a joke.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:21 PM
Removing quicken will not help balance casters to melees with the way content currently approaches players, and players currently approach content.

It's not impossible but it's a lot of work and a long way round to the end result desired, in my opinion.

Again, no examples, so I really have no way to respond to you, except to say, that you're wrong.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
Clearly, you are trolling, and/or simply declaring yourself to be a griefer - which is bannable in DDO.

Either way - you are clearly playing the wrong game if this is your main source of enjoyment.

Wow, over-reaction? These are GUILDIES he was playing with. Friends that he was having fun with. He didn't join a pug tempest spine and grease them off the ledge. Come on. He's making an excellent point.

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
IMO, the problem is NOT quicken!
The problem is that arcanes and divines have the best healing abilities.

Giving other classes a little boost is what is needed here. NOT nerfing others.

Wrong, the problem IS quicken and how it works in DDO.

danotmano1998
02-02-2012, 01:23 PM
I had a comprehensive, thoughtful reply all typed up.

Then I hit "Submit Reply" and got the maintenance warning.
.. Which annoyed me enough to shorten my reply to the following:

"We shall agree to disagree then."
Good luck with your suggestions... I sincerely hope they never come to fruition. :)

slimkj
02-02-2012, 01:25 PM
Again, no examples, so I really have no way to respond to you, except to say, that you're wrong.
I didn't think it needed spelling out. Any quest where incoming damage is enough to interrupt heals.

This will likely harm melees because;

1) There will therefore be more melee deaths, then
2) there will therefore be even more unwarranted animosity toward healers, then
3) there will therefore be even fewer healers willing to pug.

Feralthyrtiaq
02-02-2012, 01:27 PM
...NO SPELL POINTS...

Thats right!!! NO SPELL POINTS like in PNP!!!!

I can hear it now....the level 5 Wizard being asked for haste....

Sry....I can only cast ONE and ONLY 1, 3rd level spell per day and I have Fireball Slotted in my ONE and ONLY 1 3rd level spell slot JIC sooo NO HJASTez 4 Yooz!!!

Get rid of the SP bring back CAST A SPELL once and GONE till REST

That will balance everything back to to the stone ages.

Or quit all the GD b!+c4!n bout casters and just play....it's entertainment for crissakes

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 01:44 PM
...NO SPELL POINTS...

Thats right!!! NO SPELL POINTS like in PNP!!!!

I can hear it now....the level 5 Wizard being asked for haste....

Sry....I can only cast ONE and ONLY 1, 3rd level spell per day and I have Fireball Slotted in my ONE and ONLY 1 3rd level spell slot JIC sooo NO HJASTez 4 Yooz!!!

Get rid of the SP bring back CAST A SPELL once and GONE till REST

That will balance everything back to to the stone ages.

Or quit all the GD b!+c4!n bout casters and just play....it's entertainment for crissakes

When you're done from you're hyper-active "cornholio" sugar-rush maybe you might want to follow up with a less silly post that uses less hyperbole and actually has a point.

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 01:50 PM
If you're not down with an SP cost to bring it [b]in line with the actual PNP basis where its value is known[/p], what about two feats? Esp. since we don't have "Casting on the Defensive" which, last I checked, is all PNP casters used anyway.

- Fast Spell ... for the quicker casting time
- Uninterruptible Spell ... for the concentration bypass.

Even on wizards a second feat becomes a hefty choice.

Angelus_dead
02-02-2012, 01:53 PM
This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.
Yes, the Quicken feat is badly designed.

I've previously suggested nerfing it so that instead of being immune to Concentration failure, you have a percentage reduction on the damage for that purpose. I'd also have liked to see the Combat Casting feat be used instead for the purpose of continuing spells while being damaged.

However, if it becomes easier to fail concentration checks, some other things should be fixed like losing spellpoints and cooldowns when you didn't actually cast the spell. Nerfing Quicken would be a bad change if it weren't part of a bigger overhaul to combat.

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 01:55 PM
Yes, the Quicken feat is badly designed.

I've previously suggested nerfing it so that instead of being immune to Concentration failure, you have a percentage reduction on the damage for that purpose. I'd also have liked to see the Combat Casting feat be used instead for the purpose of continuing spells while being damaged.

I could get behind that, effectively doubling concentration.


However, if it becomes easier to fail concentration checks, some other things should be fixed like losing spellpoints and cooldowns when you didn't actually cast the spell. Nerfing Quicken would be a bad change if it weren't part of a bigger overhaul to combat.

Agreed.

jortann
02-02-2012, 02:04 PM
It won't work.

Removing Quicken wont make spell casters less powerful.

Arcanes will still have WoB, FoD, Reconstruct and all their others spells.
Divines will still have Implosion, Blade Barrier, Heal and all their others spells.

Sure, you will need to be a little bit more careful in how you do some things, but it will not be game changing. I run with Quicken off 95% of the time anyway.

Casters would adapt and still be powerful. They would just make sure they are not surrounded by 12 guys pounding on them and that is easy enough to do.


To back up what Coit said, "How will this improve the game?" It won't! All you will do is take away something that people have become accustomed to having and enjoy having. It will just make people mad. And it definately wont solve the balance issue.

The balance issue is far more complex than this.

And it will just make healers mad. There is already very little reason to play a healer at end game because of the lack of epic/raid gear for healers. Why would you want to add another?

I say lets give people reasons to play, not reasons to stop playing their character.

mute_mayhem
02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
/signed

I'm getting tired of joining groups on my FvS. This is an excellent excuse to just solo stuff. If I want to join a group I'll bring my reasonably self sufficient monk instead.

Fewer people in the quest = Less dungeon scaling = Less damage taken = Less chance of being interrupted.

It's a Win for me, but perhaps not for the groups I won't be joining in the future.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 02:50 PM
It won't work.

Removing Quicken wont make spell casters less powerful.

Sure, you will need to be a little bit more careful in how you do some things, but it will not be game changing. I run with Quicken off 95% of the time anyway.

Casters would adapt and still be powerful. They would just make sure they are not surrounded by 12 guys pounding on them and that is easy enough to do.

Yes, and that's a key difference. Right now, casters (self-healing arcane/divine) can fulfill all roles BETTER than other classes, when built/geared right. They are so much better, that it's is often a DETRIMENT to bring in noncasters. But, they're fun to play! So, most people don't want a nerf, and imo, rightfully so.

But, it's their defense that is truely gamebreaking. A huge boss can be pounding on them while they dottank and self-heal, and guess what? They can also blade barrier/icestorm/fog kite trash while they do it. Epic deeps is a good example of how much more survivable and rational a caster kiter/tank is. As is new invasion. And many more quests, lol!

It's out of control. There needs to be something stopping drink-n-iWin from dominating the game, and a change to quicken does that perfectly. Bc post change, it'd actually be ::shock:: dangerous to kite/dot tank an epic boss and dozens of mobs.

slimkj
02-02-2012, 02:56 PM
But, it's their defense that is truely gamebreaking.
Hyperbole doesn't help. Melees are not balanced to casters at the mo, but the game isn't broken. Apart from occasional lag, perhaps.


It's out of control.
No it's not.

I'm glad the devs seem to build a tolerance to this kind of excitable exaggeration otherwise the game would be swinging all over the place month to month.

slimkj
02-02-2012, 02:59 PM
- Fast Spell ... for the quicker casting time
- Uninterruptible Spell ... for the concentration bypass.

Even on wizards a second feat becomes a hefty choice.
Not terrible, but I don't really like any must-have feats.

I don't think quickened healing (self or otherwise) can be sorted by increasing feat prerequisites, everybody who wanted it would just take both and we'd be still here with people thinking it's overpowered.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 03:03 PM
Not terrible, but I don't really like any must-have feats.

I don't think quickened healing (self or otherwise) can be sorted by increasing feat prerequisites, everybody who wanted it would just take both and we'd be still here with people thinking it's overpowered.

I actually agree here. Don't just add a 1-higher feat req, change the mechanic.

FranOhmsford
02-02-2012, 03:24 PM
Not terrible, but I don't really like any must-have feats.

I don't think quickened healing (self or otherwise) can be sorted by increasing feat prerequisites, everybody who wanted it would just take both and we'd be still here with people thinking it's overpowered.

Only Angelus has mentioned "Combat Casting" {a totally useless feat} in this entire thread.

What if Quicken required Combat Casting as a PreReq?

Clerics and Fav Souls don't get many feats - Those that wanted quicken would have a choice to lose one of the few feats they get or to maybe take 2 levels of fighter on that FavSoul and lose the capstone.
Not so much of an issue for clerics who have a far easier time splashing anyway.

If you saw a pure Cleric or FS in the game you could pretty much guarantee they won't have quicken but if Combat Casting was to gain a boost this wouldn't be a huge issue.

The main thing is that WF FS are OP, Clerics are NOT - Pls don't nerf clerics because WF FS are easy button.

Oh and give Paladins Combat Casting as a free feat - Boosted of course. I'd also like to see Paladins get their Lay on Hands doubled in number as this game gives Casters incl Pallies and Rangers SP {which allows for far more spells being cast / rest than PnP} the small amount of LoH is just ridiculous.

Terebinthia
02-02-2012, 03:27 PM
Either you folk have a short memory or didn't play a divine during the quicken bug issues. Because it was soooo easy to get raid healers then. Of course it was.

Emphatically /notsigned.

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 03:33 PM
The main thing is that WF FS are OP, Clerics are NOT - Pls don't nerf clerics because WF FS are easy button.

The only thing everyone agrees with is some sort of caster is OP, but there seems to be wide disparity in which ones are.

Do you honestly think WF FVS are better than a fleshie Evoker FVS? Really? Do you think WF Arcane are stronger than -whatever- Pale Masters?

This is what amuses me about this and the related thread.

"Casters are OP ... but nerf X first, not Y"


Do you play X or Y?

;-)



I have a fleshie FVS and a WF FVS. My WF FVS was a sorc previously, and I really noticed the lack of DC capability, but TR'd him shortly after Savants were released. I have a WF Wizard who's now a Pale Master. I like to lazy recon myself at times, but honestly a different race PM would be stronger; he'll be a human next life even though he has "forged" in his name. The fleshie options are stronger casters, pretty much across the board.


The self healing is nice, but honestly it's the other stuff that makes them better. I know we're yapping about caster defense and self healing, but without the offense the self healing is irrelevant. Since the self-healing is often the same button as "heal someone else", I'd be careful attacking just that side for balance. Little changes, maybe, but not huge ones.


Oh and I TR'd my cleric to a paladin. There's no doubt in my mind cleric is stronger than paladin ;-)

Combat_Wombat
02-02-2012, 03:39 PM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

Did some of my best healing before I even had quicken. I would be game to see how other people do :)

HungarianRhapsody
02-02-2012, 03:47 PM
A lot of people complained when the blades in the Shroud were powered up. If those people thought that powered up blades in part 4 of the Shroud were a problem, I'd actually look forward to the screams of rage that come forth from the howling mobs on the forums if Clerics and FvS had to make concentration checks for their heals during raids.

/signed on the OP just for the entertainment value that the forums would provide during the 2-3 weeks before this change would be reverted to current functionality.

jortann
02-02-2012, 03:50 PM
It's out of control. There needs to be something stopping drink-n-iWin from dominating the game, and a change to quicken does that perfectly. Bc post change, it'd actually be ::shock:: dangerous to kite/dot tank an epic boss and dozens of mobs.

First of all .... its not out of control.

Secondly, a change to Quicken will not solve the problem... let me illustrate...


With Quicken
Caters are better than melee at end game

Without Quicken
Casters will still be better than melee at end game


Plus, just by accident I once left off Quicken while tanking the shadows in ToD. I was still able to successfully tank them with it off.

Your solution will not solve the problem.

FranOhmsford
02-02-2012, 04:33 PM
The only thing everyone agrees with is some sort of caster is OP, but there seems to be wide disparity in which ones are.

Do you honestly think WF FVS are better than a fleshie Evoker FVS? Really? Do you think WF Arcane are stronger than -whatever- Pale Masters?

This is what amuses me about this and the related thread.

"Casters are OP ... but nerf X first, not Y"


Do you play X or Y?

;-)



I have a fleshie FVS and a WF FVS. My WF FVS was a sorc previously, and I really noticed the lack of DC capability, but TR'd him shortly after Savants were released. I have a WF Wizard who's now a Pale Master. I like to lazy recon myself at times, but honestly a different race PM would be stronger; he'll be a human next life even though he has "forged" in his name. The fleshie options are stronger casters, pretty much across the board.


The self healing is nice, but honestly it's the other stuff that makes them better. I know we're yapping about caster defense and self healing, but without the offense the self healing is irrelevant. Since the self-healing is often the same button as "heal someone else", I'd be careful attacking just that side for balance. Little changes, maybe, but not huge ones.


Oh and I TR'd my cleric to a paladin. There's no doubt in my mind cleric is stronger than paladin ;-)

I won't play a WF FS - My only WF not deleted is a 10th lvl Spellsinger Bard {flavour}.

I've seen enough of this game though to know that WF FS are totally and indisputably OP - I'm not talking about spell DCs here {Blade Barrier and DP don't need them} and WF get Greatswords.
I made a H-Orc FS {I've still got her - lvl 6} on Orien and get pretty annoyed that she's stuck with Sword and Board unless I waste a feat {3 if I wanted to go 2 weapon style on an Elf with Scimis/Long Swords or 2 for a Drow with Rapiers}.

I have many characters but those who've got past lvl 15 include:

Keltenn - Human {Sarlona} Lvl 9 Paladin TR1
Jelina - Human {Cannith} Lvl 17 Cleric / 3 Fighter - Had to respec to get Quicken at lvl 20 {did fine in Shroud Normal without it}.
Sylveria - Drow {Cannith} Lvl 15 Rogue Mechanic / 3 Artificer / 2 Fighter - Will be TRd into an Arti
Lieuk - Elf {Cannith - Was Thelanis till Lvl 16} Lvl 17 Light Monk
Franq - Human {Sarlona} Lvl 16 Archmage
EnochPagett - Human {Cannith} Lvl 12 FS / 4 Fighter - Yes I know he's gimped, Will be TRing him to Paladin
Larystessian - Elf {Cannith} Lvl 12 Archmage / 3 Rogue - Will be 17/3 at cap

My highest lvl FS is currently Enoch - My highest lvl pure FS is Jilyan {H-Elf} Lvl 10

All my characters are public on MyDDO.

I think we all know that WF Sorcs and Fleshie PMs are widely considered OP but I'm talking about Divines.
Nerfing Quicken would have a nasty effect on Clerics {Definitely not OP} as well as Fav Souls - If you believe FS need nerfing {I do*} then please don't nerf Clerics at the same time.

* FS are a pain at low levels - I've also had serious problems levelling a Sorc {deleted my first at lvl 9} - I've also seen plenty of FS who can't heal anyone but themselves at mid and high level.
It's a hard class to learn to play right but as shown on these forums once learned is indisputably the #1 choice in game.
I'd like to see Paladins gain a much needed boost - Unfortunately atm FS do everything a Paladin can do but better - Ignore turn undead pls.
Clerics have enough trouble turning undead and Pallies are 4 levels behind them plus don't get Radiant to destroy - HotD should do this.

Coming from a background of 2nd Ed. {I was disgusted by 3rd ed. Tried and disliked 3.5, Pathfinder was OK but not D&D}. I'd never heard of a Favoured Soul before DDO and wish I still hadn't heard of them frankly.
What are they really? Are they supposed to be a conduit of the Gods? If so then they should be far more like a Sorc in playstyle.
Currently they take too much away from Paladins and Clerics - I'm not advocating for them to be removed from the game {that ship has sailed} but I do consider them OP.

The problem is that any nerf to FS also nerfs Clerics - What we need is for the Devs to find a way to boost Clerics {and Paladins} to do things FS cannot do:

Turn Undead - DDO has a cap on uses /day - I understand that this is needed in an MMO.
Can we get a TU that actually works though please.
LoH - DDO gives more uses of this than PnP BUT not anywhere near enough considering the huge disparity SP provide a FS or Cleric.
AC - Fav Souls can't wear Hvy Armour - This makes zero difference as AC is near useless currently and in fact robe wearers routinely outdo Hvy Armour wearers for AC.
Clerics and Paladins should be far far better melee characters than FS - An FS in my view should be a caster - Any change to AC needs to make Hvy Armour far far better than it currently is.

Again I'm not advocating for FS to be nerfed - I'm advocating for Clerics and Paladins to be boosted melee and special ability wise.

As for WF - I'm of the view here that WF should not be allowed to be Sorcs / FS / Monks as these are all innate.
Wizards = Learned {WF Have all the time in the world to learn magic}
Clerics and Paladins = Faith {WF have faith in the Lord of Blades who can confer power upon them}
This would not be a nerf to WF as they'd still be amongst the top choices for Wizards as well as Fighters and Barbs and a good choice for Paladin - Currently they're the #1 choice for too many classes.
Yes they're weak comparatively as Bards, Clerics, Rogues and Rangers but they are the #1 choice for Artificer.

As it is though I know we're not gonna see that - As such I have zero sympathy for anyone who complains that WF are no longer the #1 choice for Fighters or Barbs {H-Orc has seen to that}. They're still an easy #2.
They top the charts for Artificer, Sorc and FS still as well as Wizard of course.

I believe that Elves and Drow should get a major boost to magical ability to offset WF self healing somewhat.
I believe that Humans should get a boost of some sort to show what D&D has always shown - Humans may not live as long as other races but they learn far faster. Maybe a free feat at lvl 10 and lvl 20 as well as the free feat at lvl 1.

Yet again I'm not advocating a nerf to FS - Quicken has become a must have feat - Mainly because if people find out you don't have it you won't get into a party. This I dislike and would hope could go away.
Making Combat Casting a PreReq for quicken {Combat Casting needs a boost first} would help.
Nerfing Quicken into the ground would not.

HungarianRhapsody
02-02-2012, 05:01 PM
I won't play a WF FS - My only WF not deleted is a 10th lvl Spellsinger Bard {flavour}.

I've seen enough of this game though to know that WF FS are totally and indisputably OP - I'm not talking about spell DCs here {Blade Barrier and DP don't need them} and WF get Greatswords.
I made a H-Orc FS {I've still got her - lvl 6} on Orien and get pretty annoyed that she's stuck with Sword and Board unless I waste a feat {3 if I wanted to go 2 weapon style on an Elf with Scimis/Long Swords or 2 for a Drow with Rapiers}.

Just so you know, everything that a WF FvS can do with a greatsword, a human, half orc or half elf Clr 18/Ftr 2 can do just as well with one exception (wings for things like Sleeping Dust).

If the major issue that you have with Warforged Favored Souls is that they get a free greatsword proficiency, just wait until you find out about the massively overpowered Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins. They get EVRERY martial weapon proficiency for FREE just for taking a single level of the class.

Can you say OVERPOWERED? I think you can!

voodoogroves
02-02-2012, 05:37 PM
I won't play a WF FS - My only WF not deleted is a 10th lvl Spellsinger Bard {flavour}.

I've seen enough of this game though to know that WF FS are totally and indisputably OP - I'm not talking about spell DCs here {Blade Barrier and DP don't need them} and WF get Greatswords.
I made a H-Orc FS {I've still got her - lvl 6} on Orien and get pretty annoyed that she's stuck with Sword and Board unless I waste a feat {3 if I wanted to go 2 weapon style on an Elf with Scimis/Long Swords or 2 for a Drow with Rapiers}.
I believe you are incorrect due to personal bias.

You say "waste a feat". Why not check out those fleshie FVS running around with SOS or eAGAs ... they don't feel that feat or level dip is wasted.



I think we all know that WF Sorcs and Fleshie PMs are widely considered OP but I'm talking about Divines.
Nerfing Quicken would have a nasty effect on Clerics {Definitely not OP} as well as Fav Souls - If you believe FS need nerfing {I do*} then please don't nerf Clerics at the same time.
Sorcs may be OP. There are still WF sorcs and wizards around, but far fewer now that folks realize how strong healing amplification and those extra DCs are. Once you've got gear, WF provides little benefit.


* FS are a pain at low levels - I've also had serious problems levelling a Sorc {deleted my first at lvl 9} - I've also seen plenty of FS who can't heal anyone but themselves at mid and high level.
It's a hard class to learn to play right but as shown on these forums once learned is indisputably the #1 choice in game.
See, never had a problem leveling my fleshie FVS. At all. Swinging a greataxe when I wasn't casting.


Clerics have enough trouble turning undead and Pallies are 4 levels behind them plus don't get Radiant to destroy - HotD should do this.
If you're trying to turn undead, you may be doing it wrong.



As for WF - I'm of the view here that WF should not be allowed to be Sorcs / FS / Monks as these are all innate.
Wizards = Learned {WF Have all the time in the world to learn magic}
Clerics and Paladins = Faith {WF have faith in the Lord of Blades who can confer power upon them}
This would not be a nerf to WF as they'd still be amongst the top choices for Wizards as well as Fighters and Barbs and a good choice for Paladin - Currently they're the #1 choice for too many classes.
Yes they're weak comparatively as Bards, Clerics, Rogues and Rangers but they are the #1 choice for Artificer.
Here's that bias.

Actual conventional wisdom here is that the strongest arti is a Half Elf, unless it is your crafter and then it's human. If you're new, the WF self healing makes it definitely competitive.


As it is though I know we're not gonna see that - As such I have zero sympathy for anyone who complains that WF are no longer the #1 choice for Fighters or Barbs {H-Orc has seen to that}. They're still an easy #2.
They top the charts for Artificer, Sorc and FS still as well as Wizard of course.

As I've said - I don't think they are top choice for either of those. They are good in situations (such as new players who lack gear or finances to burn on heal scrolls). They can work at all of those. It is your opinion, and not undisputed fact ... nor the consensus of everyone, that they are strongest for each of those.



I believe that Elves and Drow should get a major boost to magical ability to offset WF self healing somewhat.
I believe that Humans should get a boost of some sort to show what D&D has always shown - Humans may not live as long as other races but they learn far faster. Maybe a free feat at lvl 10 and lvl 20 as well as the free feat at lvl 1.
Sure, some races have no niche.


Ancedote ... Shade recently tanked Sinvala (mother dragon) in Mired in Kobolds on elite ... solo ... at level for streak ... on a human. He healed with a wand and healing amp. A first life / early life player would be advised to try that on a divine or a WF arcane. A later life player goes for the DCs and chooses a fleshie.

Clearly, nerf humans. Healing amp is OP.

Combat_Wombat
02-02-2012, 06:04 PM
Clearly, nerf humans. Healing amp is OP.

it is, maybe if it didn't stack so ridiculously well and have so many sources it wouldn't be so bad

WruntJunior
02-02-2012, 06:06 PM
I've seen enough of this game though to know that WF FS are totally and indisputably OP - I'm not talking about spell DCs here {Blade Barrier and DP don't need them} and WF get Greatswords.
I made a H-Orc FS {I've still got her - lvl 6} on Orien and get pretty annoyed that she's stuck with Sword and Board unless I waste a feat {3 if I wanted to go 2 weapon style on an Elf with Scimis/Long Swords or 2 for a Drow with Rapiers}.

One major thing: WF FvS are not the greatly-overpowered melee FvS now. I would say that's a tie between 18 fvs 2 fighter horcs and 20 fvs helfs....depending on whether you want more offense or more defense. Either way, they are both much more powerful than WF, as they have the benefit of proficiency (the major reason people like wf FvS currently), without the penalty of god-awful healing amp.

That aside, quicken is a must. The only way I could see someone reliably being able to heal a party if they didn't have quicken is if that's ALL they did - in other words, nerfing quicken would severely marginalize the role of healers, making more people not want to play healers.........and that is NOT something I want to see happen.

Personally, I say don't worry too much about the imbalance at the moment (it isn't exactly ruining the game, after all) and wait to see what is already in store that may balance the classes a bit (such as the enhancement change). After all, melees are in the same place that casters were pre-U9 - only need one (at most) for a smooth run. Too much of a gut reaction, and we'll turn the tables back again without actually balancing it.

sweez
02-02-2012, 06:43 PM
This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing.

Have to say this argument baffles me - should the grease spell be removed from the game as well?

HungarianRhapsody
02-02-2012, 06:53 PM
Have to say this argument baffles me - should the grease spell be removed from the game as well?

Why would you remove a party buff from the game? We're getting harder content soon and need all the party buffs we can get.

KillEveryone
02-02-2012, 07:39 PM
/no freaking way

If I don't get to cast uninterrupted, I'll get my concentration high enough to not fail that.

If I don't get to cast uninterrupted, the only spell that I would want to take this feat for would be mass heal. I can live with the casting speed of the rest. I'd bet that a good portion of the players would get rid of this feat once they have to start making concentration checks. Why make another feat junk.

HarveyMilk
02-02-2012, 07:53 PM
Why make another feat junk.

If your cast takes half the time... that's half the chance of getting interrupted. The feat would still be gold. But instead of iWin, sit in the middle of the group taking damage and spamming mass heal on everyone, you'd have to make sure you're not taking damage. Oh noes.

Dawnsfire
02-02-2012, 08:05 PM
Will everyone please stop talking about nerfing casters. Every time people get on the 'nerf casters' bandwagon the Devs turn around and nerf melees yet again. It is kind of counter productive to be honest.

Vengeance777
02-02-2012, 09:46 PM
/not signed.

Quicken in D&D3.5 makes it so casting a spell is a free action and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Thus no concentration check.

Just because you use it for griefing does not mean the feat should be removed from the game. If anything the griefer should be removed not the legit feat hes using for griefing.

This is akin to asking the devs to remove Supreme Cleave because a barbarian is spamming it to damage himself and grief the healer.

ArcaneMelee
02-02-2012, 09:50 PM
... But instead of iWin...

You keep saying that Quickened Healing is the "Win" button - I cannot think of a single quest where the objective is to stay alive, let alone enough quests to qualify "not dying" as "I Win".

Sure, you need to stay alive, but it's not the end-all-be-all.

Autolycus
02-02-2012, 09:55 PM
If your cast takes half the time... that's half the chance of getting interrupted. The feat would still be gold. But instead of iWin, sit in the middle of the group taking damage and spamming mass heal on everyone, you'd have to make sure you're not taking damage. Oh noes.

You're wrong. If Quicken got nerfed, it would just put more burden on "healers". I'd dump it just like Extend. It would hose Pre's like RS where the effects are centered on the caster. You need to be in the mix with the melee's for the Aura and Bursts to benefit them.

The problem is that DDO has amped damage and to-hits to levels that renders AC meaningless for anyone who hasn't ground out the best gear for years. The fact that robes protect better than armor is ridiculous. The only "defense" for the vast majority is healing.

If the levels of to-hit/damage were brought down to PnP levels, then having feats work like they do in PnP would be fine. And your concentration skill would be much more meaningful.

I'm not interested in becoming a healbot because I have to constantly recast heals that get interrupted (and yes my concentration is maxed). If Heals get interrupted or take too long (Mass Heal), then you die. And no, I won't be drinking SP pots either.

I'm, constantly amazed at those who want to nerf those who help them.

GeneralDiomedes
02-02-2012, 09:56 PM
I really wasn't aware this was such an issue. Something acceptable to me would be to increase its cost, as DDO is still to me fundamentally a resource game, not a cooldown game.

FranOhmsford
02-02-2012, 10:08 PM
If the major issue that you have with Warforged Favored Souls is that they get a free greatsword proficiency, just wait until you find out about the massively overpowered Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers and Paladins. They get EVRERY martial weapon proficiency for FREE just for taking a single level of the class.

Can you say OVERPOWERED? I think you can!

Give all those classes Blade Barrier and DP + Cure Light thru Heal Mass {forget every other spell an FS gets} and yes then they'll be as OP as a Warforged FS.

Seriously


Just so you know, everything that a WF FvS can do with a greatsword, a human, half orc or half elf Clr 18/Ftr 2 can do just as well with one exception (wings for things like Sleeping Dust).

Cleric 18/Fighter 2 should be able to melee - In fact all clerics should be able to melee.

The fact that a WF FavSoul can melee just as well {if not better thanks to DR} is not a good thing in my view. This goes for all FS as well not just WF.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it's quite obvious and I have not been trying to hide the facts that I dislike WF and FavSouls for reasons that have little to do with DDO and everything to do with D&D.
I have however been attempting to be objective in my arguments - If I have come across as too subjective I apologise.
The fact of the matter is though that despite what some of the best players have noted on these forums ingame the majority of FavSouls you see are invariably Warforged. {This goes for the bad ones as well as the uber OP ones}.
As I said there are plenty of players out there {like myself} who cannot play a WF FS {Though I myself do not wish to ever play such a character Molineux - My Bard - will remain WF thru every life and so will have to spend one life as a WF FS}.

All classes are supposed to be different enough {yes I know the beauty of DDO is the ability to make every class able to do anything} that they each have a niche.
Currently FS {not just WF} do everything {useful in game} that a Cleric or Paladin can do.
I mentioned TU not working properly - This has nothing to do with me supposedly "doing things wrong" by trying to turn things - I stopped attempting to turn anything at level a while back {There's just no point when you've still gotta beat it down anyway}. It has everything to do with the fact that TU needs to be boosted to actually be of use at the highest levels {for Paladins as well as Clerics}.
The next update is supposedly {Can't remember the post} bringing the melee FavSoul Pre. What is this going to do to Paladins?

I will say again - Yes I am personally prejudiced against both FS and WF - I try however to write objectively without colouring my posts - If I have failed in this I apologise yet again.

I personally love my Halfling Arti but since Artis came out the majority of posts I've read on these forums have charted the top choices as Warforged and H-Elf.
I've seen posts saying that the only point to making a human arti is for crafting.
Drow of course regularly get dismissed even though they have +2 to both Dex and Int making them perfect for an arti.

As for Shade being able to solo tank Sinvala - I'm not at all surprised - I'm sure there are plenty of other people on these forums who could do it too - I am not one of them {not on any character}.
I am not talking just about the uber players out there - Every class can be amazing in the right hands.
I am talking about the class/race combination that does it for you.

But again I will say - My argument was against nerfing quicken in the way the Op wants - I believe this would have too detrimental an effect on the Clerics out there.
If you want to nerf FavSouls {not a bad thing in my view} then please don't throw the Cleric out with them.

Oh btw Wings should return to their former glory - They were one of the less OP things an FS got in my opinion.

Bacab
02-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Lets make a deal.

Quicken can go to PnP rules wear continuing/persistent damage requires a concentration check...(remember...PnP DND is turn-based strategy game).

But since quicken will now require concentration checks...

I want Khopesh to be 1d8 19-20/2 and it will give a +4 Bonus to Trip.

Sounds fair to me.

Nerf Quicken AND Nerf Khopesh.

Bacab
02-02-2012, 10:11 PM
Oh yeah...generally I don't have red alert problems when I am soloing on my WF WIZ or my FVS (s) and Cleric. It is when a party screws up.

Therefore the obvious fix for me if this was to happen...I would never do a "true" PUG again. It would only be guild runs for me. That hurts everyone (if more "healers" decide its not worth playing with others anymore).

grodon9999
02-02-2012, 10:18 PM
Lets make a deal.

Quicken can go to PnP rules wear continuing/persistent damage requires a concentration check...(remember...PnP DND is turn-based strategy game).

But since quicken will now require concentration checks...

I want Khopesh to be 1d8 19-20/2 and it will give a +4 Bonus to Trip.

Sounds fair to me.

Nerf Quicken AND Nerf Khopesh.

Deal.

KillEveryone
02-02-2012, 10:49 PM
If your cast takes half the time... that's half the chance of getting interrupted. The feat would still be gold. But instead of iWin, sit in the middle of the group taking damage and spamming mass heal on everyone, you'd have to make sure you're not taking damage. Oh noes.

You don't understand.

I will get my concentration check up high enough for it to not matter.

I will still be able to take damage and cast since I got that concentration check up high enough.

I win anyway.

I took this feat on my caster types, I like it. It isn't necessary for any but a divine for mass heal, other spells are quite nice to guarantee a cure/heal is cast in a timely manner but it is possible to get a good concentration so that they won't have problems. I've run for a long time on my arcane as a wiz/rogue(have since LR'd to a pale master) without this feat and had no problems getting my concentration high enough to UMD scroll heal or cast a spell in the middle of a pack or firewall jumping.

I enjoy the casting speed. Uninterrupted cast is a very nice bonus. Take that bonus away, this feat will be junk. I'll replace it with something more useful and break out some old gear.

WruntJunior
02-02-2012, 11:50 PM
You don't understand.

I will get my concentration check up high enough for it to not matter.

I will still be able to take damage and cast since I got that concentration check up high enough.

I win anyway.

I took this feat on my caster types, I like it. It isn't necessary for any but a divine for mass heal, other spells are quite nice to guarantee a cure/heal is cast in a timely manner but it is possible to get a good concentration so that they won't have problems. I've run for a long time on my arcane as a wiz/rogue(have since LR'd to a pale master) without this feat and had no problems getting my concentration high enough to UMD scroll heal or cast a spell in the middle of a pack or firewall jumping.

I enjoy the casting speed. Uninterrupted cast is a very nice bonus. Take that bonus away, this feat will be junk. I'll replace it with something more useful and break out some old gear.

Your concentration will not be high enough to never fail. Ever. At least, not in end-game content.

furbyoats
02-03-2012, 01:30 AM
/facepalm
/not signed

no, just no

Angelus_dead
02-03-2012, 01:41 AM
Quicken in D&D3.5 makes it so casting a spell is a free action and does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Thus no concentration check.
That's simply untrue: just because a spell didn't trigger an opportunity attack doesn't mean no enemy can damage you during it. DDO already doesn't allow opportunity attacks for spells.

Besides, if you were going to quote back to D&D 3.5 precedent, then you'd notice that Wizards and Clerics can only Quicken spells of level 5 or lower, and that Sorcerers and FVS cannot use Quicken ever.


Just because you use it for griefing does not mean the feat should be removed from the game. If anything the griefer should be removed not the legit feat hes using for griefing.
That really doesn't make sense as part of this topic.



I will get my concentration check up high enough for it to not matter.

I will still be able to take damage and cast since I got that concentration check up high enough.
DDO's mechanics do not allow player characters to get a skill modifier of 450+.

Bacab
02-03-2012, 01:44 AM
Deal.


Wow, you really feel strongly about this.

After I posted my 2 posts...I thought about it. My WIZ doesn't even have quicken lol.

I do think quicken is super needed for mass heal. But then again, I feel the Devs design certain raids and even casting times based on the idea that EVERY caster has quicken.

Why does mass heal take 4 seconds to cast without quicken? Why does Blade Barrier take that long too?

Maybe if they sped up some spells, I wouldn't need quicken?

Also, they could make it this way...only PHYSICAL damage can interupt you? Cometfall has physical damage also btw. SO keep that in mind. The main thing I was thinking was Chain Lightning (Sully) or a DBF (Harry)...maybe we can get a free pass on that?

Also maybe they could add a spell that helps reduce concentration checks? Like maybe cut the dmg part of the check in half or something.

For this to work...they would HAVE to re-work the calcs for that....otherwise Divines would become Nanny-bots.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 01:44 AM
I also play a Pale master, A Pure 20 healing bard, and a Cleric. I have my share of casters that I'm probably on them more than anything else.



Caster are OP.

They are not OP because of their offense. Please do not nerf them

Casters are OP because of their Defense. Quickened heal/reconstruct make you un-killable as long as you have SP and you have unlimited SP in DDO thanks to pots and other stuff.

OP classes are bad, class balance and the need for forced cooperation is good.

Nerfing quicken will do this.

Hm, what about those casters that don't have quicken, are they not OP. Fleshy sorc can perform same or better as wf sorc, and scrolls can't be quickened. Seriously this is getting a bit tiring. Guess quicken is the villain of the day, so what will it be tomorow.

Nerfing quicken would really screw selfhealing paladins and rangers imo.

Rasczak
02-03-2012, 03:26 AM
I tried really hard to take this seriously, but I guess I couldn't make that will save. the dc is just to high to believe it....

Nyxianne
02-03-2012, 04:13 AM
/signed on the costs more
/not signed on the remove completely

The logic of it can cause "griefing" is not sound! The biggest drive behind getting Kormor's Belt for most people is because it can cause grief for other players. Doesn't mean it should be removed. I agree the change would be better to da where the mobs just get smarter instead of just causing movement reduction.

Flavilandile
02-03-2012, 04:23 AM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

While I'm not a fan of quicken did you read it's description ?

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Quicken_Spell


While this metamagic feat is active, spells cast twice as fast and cannot be interrupted by enemy attacks, but they consume 10 additional spell points.
Emphasis mine.

Forcing a concentration check would void the bolded/underlined/italicized part.
It does just what it is meant and supposed to do, you cast faster, you cannot be interrupted ( no concentration check ), but it's a mana drain.

End of the discussion. If you don't like the feat don't take it. ( For example most of my clerics don't have it and still do quite well without it )

Angelus_dead
02-03-2012, 04:33 AM
While I'm not a fan of quicken did you read it's description ?
The fact that some designer historically made a decision is not proof that the decision was beneficial and correct.


End of the discussion. If you don't like the feat don't take it.
That kind of reasoning makes no sense:
1. There is no justification to say "It's like this now, therefore it must be like this forever".
2. If a person doesn't like what a certain feat does to the game, personally holding back on taking the feat will not solve his complaints about what the existence of the feat does to gameplay.

For a simple example:
Suppose I feel that a speed limit of 40 is too high on my street, and I want the speed limit to be changed to 20. It wouldn't work for someone to tell me "Just don't drive above 20 yourself", because that doesn't solve my problem. Nor would it be logical for someone to take a photo of the existing speed limit sign and use that as proof that a limit of 40 is the correct one.

azrael4h
02-03-2012, 04:49 AM
The fact that some designer historically made a decision is not proof that the decision was beneficial and correct.


That kind of reasoning makes no sense:
1. There is no justification to say "It's like this now, therefore it must be like this forever".
2. If a person doesn't like what a certain feat does to the game, personally holding back on taking the feat will not solve his complaints about what the existence of the feat does to gameplay.

For a simple example:
Suppose I feel that a speed limit of 40 is too high on my street, and I want the speed limit to be changed to 20. It wouldn't work for someone to tell me "Just don't drive above 20 yourself", because that doesn't solve my problem. Nor would it be logical for someone to take a photo of the existing speed limit sign and use that as proof that a limit of 40 is the correct one.

So using Quicken Spell is the same as running someone over with a car?

Angelus_dead
02-03-2012, 05:05 AM
So using Quicken Spell is the same as running someone over with a car?
No, using Quicken Spell is not the same as running someone over with a car.

What caused you to ask that question?

SirValentine
02-03-2012, 05:06 AM
Maximize is a +3 CL feat in PNP. Quicken is +4. It shouldn't cost 10 SP, it should cost 30 in DDO. AT 10 it's freaking free. At 30 it becomes something you have to think about.

Nah, DDO's pattern is (or used to be before they randomized all the spell costs) 5 extra SP per spell level. So Maximize SHOULD be 15, and Quicken 20, based on that. However, in P&P, Quicken let you cast twice as many spells in the same amount of time, too. Let it have shorter cooldowns instead of just shorter casting time and we'll talk.

/not signed to nerfing Quicken

Bacab
02-03-2012, 05:07 AM
Only thing is...and I keep coming back to this idea about multiple things...

If you don't like something in this game...don't do it.

I never really enjoyed Epics...and I don't run em.

I don't enjoy playing melee-only classes...and I don't run em.

I don't like drow...and I do my best to let them die in quest (that was not an admission of guilt!).

If a certain guild never puts things up for roll...don't run with em.

If you think the Torc is the most powerful item in the game and it is game-breaking...don't use it.

FLIP SIDE

I do enjoy a little role-playing. I get it that not everyone does. I don't expect every group that I join to understand.

What I am getting at...why should it matter to you how *I* play the game?

If I want to run around in Amrath and drop Blade Barriers in a Red Dungeon Alert and use Leap of Faith to combat that...how does it affectg you while you are in GiantHold on a TR?

If another player is dancing in a firewall (remember when melees were screaming to nerf firewall?) and killing things...and you don't like that tactic...don't play with them.

I personally hate the "I never spend plat on potions...ever"-type barbarians who think my "job" is to Hjeal them. I will not run with those types of people. IF they somehow end up in a party of mine...I politely tell them over voice chat that they are free to drop group...or I can drop group.

AD and Grodon bring up some good points...but ultimately they can choose to not group with the Quickened Heal/Reconstruct player if they want. Heck, they can even post an LFM "SHroud on Hard...Quicken is not allowed". Lets see how quickly that thing fills...

My point...if I want to be a falling tree in the forest...let me. As in...if I am not hurting you...let me be please. If you dislike my playstyle...you can choose not to group with me.

BTW I do understand...the DEVs make Raids/Quest based on the idea everyone has Toughness (high HP) and Quicken. If they nerfed themselves...they could nerf us too.

SirValentine
02-03-2012, 05:09 AM
Why does mass heal take 4 seconds to cast without quicken? Why does Blade Barrier take that long too?


Actually, they sped BB up a while back. It has a normal casting time now, not super-slow like it used to be.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 05:09 AM
While it seems like OP is only a flame bait, people are actually discussing this seriously.

So, what would removal of "no concentration checks" from quicken accomplish. Hm, divine casters and wf arcanes wont tank some bosses and that's about it. Other then that it wouldn't have much impact, while seriously affecting paladins and rangers for instance.

Extra sp cost? Again, low impact on casters, while serious drawback for paladins and rangers.

taurean430
02-03-2012, 05:13 AM
Removing quicken or changing it in any way will not slow down my clr/fvs/wiz ability to either solo content or tank bosses if I choose to while running them. However I am almost certain that it will make melee only players' time standing around begging healing capable toons to join their lfm's for quests/raids exponentially increase.

I rarely if ever use it on any of my divine or arcane builds as it is. So changing it won't affecting anything for them. However my paladins and bards will receive a nerf for no reason that stands to logic. I say this because all of the things being referenced in this thread I have done or can do with my casting toons *without* quicken. It's turned off nearly all of the time.

I would think that quicken was implemented the way it was in this game based on the completely unbalanced to hit and damage dealt by enemy mobs compared to their pnp counterparts. There are players on all servers that run as I do and basically ignore the feat and leave it off save rare emergencies. Incidentally, these are the same players who can work their insta-kill spells in such a way as to almost never having to make concentration checks to begin with.

/not signed

Bacab
02-03-2012, 05:15 AM
Actually, they sped BB up a while back. It has a normal casting time now, not super-slow like it used to be.


Ahhh...on my BB toons...I never turned it off to check lol. I recently came back from a 14 month Layoff.

taurean430
02-03-2012, 05:17 AM
While it seems like OP is only a flame bait, people are actually discussing this seriously.

So, what would removal of "no concentration checks" from quicken accomplish. Hm, divine casters and wf arcanes wont tank some bosses and that's about it. Other then that it wouldn't have much impact, while seriously affecting paladins and rangers for instance.

Extra sp cost? Again, low impact on casters, while serious drawback for paladins and rangers.

I was thinking something similar. Already find myself rather limited self healing wise with the double sp cost associated with having combat expertise active. Factoring in maximize or empower/empower healing spell on a class with significantly less sp is nerfing already. Now it's supposedly supposed to cost even more to be reasonably self sufficient.

Yeah, okay. But not really...

Angelus_dead
02-03-2012, 05:29 AM
AD and Grodon bring up some good points...but ultimately they can choose to not group with the Quickened Heal/Reconstruct player if they want. Heck, they can even post an LFM "SHroud on Hard...Quicken is not allowed". Lets see how quickly that thing fills...

My point...if I want to be a falling tree in the forest...let me. As in...if I am not hurting you...let me be please. If you dislike my playstyle...you can choose not to group with me.
So do you disagree that game design is an activity?

Here's the thing:
Comments of the form "You can simply decide not to use it" are almost always an irrational fallacy, regardless of if the domain is game design, legal policy, health care, or whatever.

SirValentine
02-03-2012, 05:35 AM
the need for forced cooperation is good.


Have to disagree, pretty strongly.

There is a small but signifigant player base that almost always runs stuff solo, and an even larger group that does so quite often, either due to personal preference, time constraints, etc..

Solo-friendly game = $$$ for Turbine.

Groups should be faster & more effective than soloing, I'd agree, but outright "need" for grouping is a very bad idea, for players who don't like to group and for the money they pay to Turbine to help keep the game going.

Making soloing much more difficult, which nerfing Quicken would do, will just turn those players off of the game. Bad business choice.

Bacab
02-03-2012, 05:47 AM
So do you disagree that game design is an activity?

Here's the thing:
Comments of the form "You can simply decide not to use it" are almost always an irrational fallacy, regardless of if the domain is game design, legal policy, health care, or whatever.


No, I agree. But circular logic gets us nowhere.

I also know "but its always been this way" is not a good reason to keep the status quo.

A bad decision/design is only compounded with building on top of that.

As of now...I think they would have to change sooooo many things to make certain raids playable...it would most likely be broken for a long time as they tried to re-balance it.

Mainly I am thinking of raids where there is "splash damage" and that would interupt "Mass Heal".

I have a Melee WF FVS, a Dwarven Battle Cleric, and a DP-Specced Evoker FVS. 2 of those 3 are concord opp specced and torc'd. I actually like getting hit while centering my mass on myself. Both FVS FVS are sitting near 600 HP un buffed so they are built to be in the fray. The Dwarf Cleric has close to 500 (no green steel HP item yet). ANyway, nerfing this would totally change the way I play my guys. Though I guess healing burst would still be un-interruptable.

But having "Mass Heal" stopped will lead to a lotta wipes>>>>a lot of wipes could/would lead to people not rolling divines out of fear of blame or failure.

I may be over-reacting...and I don't want to be Chicken Little saying the sky is falling. But I think changing Quicken would have an earth shattering change on the way we run quests/raids.

Bacab
02-03-2012, 05:50 AM
Have to disagree, pretty strongly.

There is a small but signifigant player base that almost always runs stuff solo, and an even larger group that does so quite often, either due to personal preference, time constraints, etc..

Solo-friendly game = $$$ for Turbine.

Groups should be faster & more effective than soloing, I'd agree, but outright "need" for grouping is a very bad idea, for players who don't like to group and for the money they pay to Turbine to help keep the game going.

Making soloing much more difficult, which nerfing Quicken would do, will just turn those players off of the game. Bad business choice.

This is 100% correct.

The one thing we have to remember...

Ultimately Turbine wants to provide a good game/product. But the ultimately have to appeal to the masses and make money.

Having a good ability to have things solo-able (dungeon scaling is pretty new-ish) is an example of them catering to soloers.

SirValentine
02-03-2012, 06:35 AM
Comments of the form "You can simply decide not to use it" are almost always an irrational fallacy


You're going to have to explain that one in a lot more detail for me.

I mean, isn't "I think game mechanic X is over-powered, so I will choose not to use it!" perfectly valid? If not, you'd better break the news gently to the entire thriving perma-death movement. Or people who refuse to use pots. Or guilds that do "naked" runs. Etc..

And if that's valid, why is pointing that option out to nerf-callers a fallacy?

How about each person use the things that are fun for them, and not use the things that are not, instead of nerf-callers trying to get what is fun for us and not fun for them removed from the game?

slimkj
02-03-2012, 07:01 AM
Have to disagree, pretty strongly.
Me too, being able to do both is part of the attraction of this game for a number of people I know.

azrael4h
02-03-2012, 07:03 AM
While it seems like OP is only a flame bait, people are actually discussing this seriously.

So, what would removal of "no concentration checks" from quicken accomplish. Hm, divine casters and wf arcanes wont tank some bosses and that's about it. Other then that it wouldn't have much impact, while seriously affecting paladins and rangers for instance.

Extra sp cost? Again, low impact on casters, while serious drawback for paladins and rangers.

Obviously those pesky Paladins and Rangers are OP, which is the point of this thread.


No, using Quicken Spell is not the same as running someone over with a car.

What caused you to ask that question?

Because you compared keeping quicken spell as it has worked for 6 years to a higher speed limit, which carries increased risk of a small human running in front of someone who is driving a Honda, which has poorly designed brakes that will generally fail under moderate usage, such as shown in C&D's Lightning Lap at ViR (Civic Si and S2000 were the specific models, both had brake failures during the run). Of course assuming a residential neighborhood; no one cares if some manager runs under the wheels. It's not like they're people.

Specifically, you said that not using Quicken is kin to driving 20mph on a 40mph street if you feel the speed limit is too high. Choose a relevant argument next time. It's not quite the same thing. I pointed out a similar thing elsewhere, it's similar to Godwin. You create a bizarre analogy in order to discredit someone, or just flat out call them a liar and say that because you called them a liar, that discredits them. You, nor does anyone else on this forum, do not hold that much respect.

And I hate Hondas.


I was thinking something similar. Already find myself rather limited self healing wise with the double sp cost associated with having combat expertise active. Factoring in maximize or empower/empower healing spell on a class with significantly less sp is nerfing already. Now it's supposedly supposed to cost even more to be reasonably self sufficient.

Yeah, okay. But not really...

I refused to take CE on either my old Paladin or my Exploiter for that very reason. I don't consider using Maximizing as nerfing myself, it's a even trade off for brute healing power vs stretching the sp out over a longer period of time; and a trade off between healing power and whatever you gave up to take it.

In my case, since I lack any AC gear anyway, dumping CE is a no-brainer for me. Getting hit on a 2 on way or another kinda makes it a waste.

Unlike Gordon and AD and other "make arcanes back into buff/hold bots and divines into healbots'" hallucinations, Torcs aren't dropping for every character in every DQ; 40+ runs and not once have I SEEN one. Others have seen over 100 runs with no Torc. Only a small number of casters has the gear to have infinite sp like they claim every caster does. Only a fraction of that has gotten the epic gear required to be a dominant caster in epics. The fact is, every argument stating that every naked caster can solo epics is fallacious; only a tiny portion can. It's about the same portion of melee who can solo epics.

The desire to nerf casters both arcane and divine is born solely out of a desire for DDO to become their perfect MMO; Healers only heal them and stay back and do nothing but heal, arcanes do nothing but hold mobs so they don't get dirty when fighting in melee, I guess Bards do nothing but buff. Paladins and Rangers should be deleted entirely since they don't buff the Fighters and Barbarians in any way. If Druids do anything but buff and heal them then don't bother implementing them. Artificers are no longer worth having since Deadly Weapons was nerfed, remove them too. Monks are OP for being a melee class that was given the ability to tank like the other three melee classes, they don't buff the Fighter and Barbarian directly, so remove them too.

So the Shade/AD/Gordon game consists of Fighter, Barbarian, Healer, Buffer, Controller. Nothing more. Any attempt by those last three to do anything but support the first two shall be met with violence.


Removing quicken or changing it in any way will not slow down my clr/fvs/wiz ability to either solo content or tank bosses if I choose to while running them. However I am almost certain that it will make melee only players' time standing around begging healing capable toons to join their lfm's for quests/raids exponentially increase.

I rarely if ever use it on any of my divine or arcane builds as it is. So changing it won't affecting anything for them. However my paladins and bards will receive a nerf for no reason that stands to logic. I say this because all of the things being referenced in this thread I have done or can do with my casting toons *without* quicken. It's turned off nearly all of the time.


In retrospect, I'm the same way. My Sorcerer does not carry quicken, my Cleric used it for BB and Mass Heal only (BB wasn't sped up until she had TRed into a Sorc), and my FvS only had Quicken activated for Mass Heal during raids. Since she TRed, I won't take Quicken until 18, when I'll start raiding significantly again (and will have Mass Heal). I'm not really considering it a necessity for my future Druid caster build that my Sorc will TR into, nor would I seriously consider it if I was going to do a Wizard life unless Warforged. Even then, I'm not sure about needing it. If I don't need it to heal on a fleshy FvS/Cleric, why would I need it for a toaster Sorc/Wiz?

Funny thing, my Sorc is a Human, and has no problems self healing in most epics I bother to enter. I don't know where VoN1-4 or Red Fens or Carnival epics sit in terms of how challenging it is to watch the paint dry in there, but I have no problems if you don't count such a high degree of boredom that I risk going into a coma. I have fallen asleep a time or two though, maybe instead of posting I should have ran an epic since I'm dealing with insomnia this morning.

Quite frankly, if Mass Heal ever gets a sane casting speed, I may drop it on my FvS as well and not look back. I tend to use scrolls when soloing, which can't be quickened. Saves sp for offensive casting, and I rarely let myself get hit enough to cause a concentration check. I believe any real Divine would love having an additional feat slot opened by not absolutely requiring Quicken.


I won't play a WF FS - My only WF not deleted is a 10th lvl Spellsinger Bard {flavour}.

I've seen enough of this game though to know that WF FS are totally and indisputably OP - I'm not talking about spell DCs here {Blade Barrier and DP don't need them} and WF get Greatswords.
I made a H-Orc FS {I've still got her - lvl 6} on Orien and get pretty annoyed that she's stuck with Sword and Board unless I waste a feat {3 if I wanted to go 2 weapon style on an Elf with Scimis/Long Swords or 2 for a Drow with Rapiers}.

I have many characters but those who've got past lvl 15 include:

Keltenn - Human {Sarlona} Lvl 9 Paladin TR1
Jelina - Human {Cannith} Lvl 17 Cleric / 3 Fighter - Had to respec to get Quicken at lvl 20 {did fine in Shroud Normal without it}.
Sylveria - Drow {Cannith} Lvl 15 Rogue Mechanic / 3 Artificer / 2 Fighter - Will be TRd into an Arti
Lieuk - Elf {Cannith - Was Thelanis till Lvl 16} Lvl 17 Light Monk
Franq - Human {Sarlona} Lvl 16 Archmage
EnochPagett - Human {Cannith} Lvl 12 FS / 4 Fighter - Yes I know he's gimped, Will be TRing him to Paladin
Larystessian - Elf {Cannith} Lvl 12 Archmage / 3 Rogue - Will be 17/3 at cap

My highest lvl FS is currently Enoch - My highest lvl pure FS is Jilyan {H-Elf} Lvl 10

All my characters are public on MyDDO.

I think we all know that WF Sorcs and Fleshie PMs are widely considered OP but I'm talking about Divines.
Nerfing Quicken would have a nasty effect on Clerics {Definitely not OP} as well as Fav Souls - If you believe FS need nerfing {I do*} then please don't nerf Clerics at the same time.

* FS are a pain at low levels - I've also had serious problems levelling a Sorc {deleted my first at lvl 9} - I've also seen plenty of FS who can't heal anyone but themselves at mid and high level.
It's a hard class to learn to play right but as shown on these forums once learned is indisputably the #1 choice in game.
I'd like to see Paladins gain a much needed boost - Unfortunately atm FS do everything a Paladin can do but better - Ignore turn undead pls.
Clerics have enough trouble turning undead and Pallies are 4 levels behind them plus don't get Radiant to destroy - HotD should do this.

Coming from a background of 2nd Ed. {I was disgusted by 3rd ed. Tried and disliked 3.5, Pathfinder was OK but not D&D}. I'd never heard of a Favoured Soul before DDO and wish I still hadn't heard of them frankly.
What are they really? Are they supposed to be a conduit of the Gods? If so then they should be far more like a Sorc in playstyle.
Currently they take too much away from Paladins and Clerics - I'm not advocating for them to be removed from the game {that ship has sailed} but I do consider them OP.

The problem is that any nerf to FS also nerfs Clerics - What we need is for the Devs to find a way to boost Clerics {and Paladins} to do things FS cannot do:

Turn Undead - DDO has a cap on uses /day - I understand that this is needed in an MMO.
Can we get a TU that actually works though please.
LoH - DDO gives more uses of this than PnP BUT not anywhere near enough considering the huge disparity SP provide a FS or Cleric.
AC - Fav Souls can't wear Hvy Armour - This makes zero difference as AC is near useless currently and in fact robe wearers routinely outdo Hvy Armour wearers for AC.
Clerics and Paladins should be far far better melee characters than FS - An FS in my view should be a caster - Any change to AC needs to make Hvy Armour far far better than it currently is.

Again I'm not advocating for FS to be nerfed - I'm advocating for Clerics and Paladins to be boosted melee and special ability wise.

As for WF - I'm of the view here that WF should not be allowed to be Sorcs / FS / Monks as these are all innate.
Wizards = Learned {WF Have all the time in the world to learn magic}
Clerics and Paladins = Faith {WF have faith in the Lord of Blades who can confer power upon them}
This would not be a nerf to WF as they'd still be amongst the top choices for Wizards as well as Fighters and Barbs and a good choice for Paladin - Currently they're the #1 choice for too many classes.
Yes they're weak comparatively as Bards, Clerics, Rogues and Rangers but they are the #1 choice for Artificer.

As it is though I know we're not gonna see that - As such I have zero sympathy for anyone who complains that WF are no longer the #1 choice for Fighters or Barbs {H-Orc has seen to that}. They're still an easy #2.
They top the charts for Artificer, Sorc and FS still as well as Wizard of course.

I believe that Elves and Drow should get a major boost to magical ability to offset WF self healing somewhat.
I believe that Humans should get a boost of some sort to show what D&D has always shown - Humans may not live as long as other races but they learn far faster. Maybe a free feat at lvl 10 and lvl 20 as well as the free feat at lvl 1.

Yet again I'm not advocating a nerf to FS - Quicken has become a must have feat - Mainly because if people find out you don't have it you won't get into a party. This I dislike and would hope could go away.
Making Combat Casting a PreReq for quicken {Combat Casting needs a boost first} would help.
Nerfing Quicken into the ground would not.

A few good points, I'll go through them:

1 - FvS should be more like Sorc than Cleric - The issue here is that there are too few Divine spells for nuking. Outside of Divine Punishment for bosses, and Blade Barrier for moving trash, they don't have much. The fire spells are weak, as divines don't have much to boost them with, just 30% from the FvS PrE. Cometfall is great, But is at level 6 with BB. Before Spell Level 6, they have no efficient AoE spells. Before SL4, no AoE spells at all, and only crappy single targets until 3.

Coupled with the innate DR and resistances, this makes them more ideally suited for melee hybrids than casters. They still make excellent casters mind you, but even AoV seems half-designed around a melee hybrid than a full out caster.

Quite frankly, I feel that Clerics should be better casters, with FvS sitting in between Paladins and Clerics for melee. But, since we're lacking an offensive casting line, instead the "healer" line as the melee whined about wanting healers to do nothing but heal them for so long, there's an imbalance there. Clerics are definitely better as splashed hybrid melee builds though; they lose far less, and actually gain quite a bit with a Monk splash.

2 - Turn Undead - This has been helped some with RS, but the lack of high-end Undead and the differences in Hit Die between DDO and 3.5e means it's functionally useless outside of fueling special abilities. Reworking it to not rely on HD would make it work better, but we'd need end-game content with Undead as a focus in order to make it shine. And AD/Gordon would whine that Turn Undead trivializes this new content, so NERF NOW! Also, Necropolis series ranks among the least popular packs in the game; only Threnal, Restless Isles, and Catacombs come close. And Catacombs is also Undead-centric.

The problem is melee have a harder time with Undead; they get no crits on them, they're immune to many status effects that melee can put down on them, immune to SA damage, etc... Thus casters would be "over-powered" here too, particularly if Clerics' Turn Undead was changed to actually be worth using on Undead, unstead of just fueling bursts and auras.

3 - LoH - I agree, in fact I agree on all limited use clickies like the action boosts; they should recharge their uses over time, like RS turns.

4 - WF class restrictions - Not needed. They're not the clear top choice for Wizards since PMs can now reliably and efficiently self-heal, and definitely not for Evoker FvS. Monks are trained in their abilities just like a Fighter is, so thematically you can't really argue for that unless you want to say Warforged can't be any class at all, and they aren't necessarily the best at being a Monk either. FvS are chosen, so that only leaves Sorcerers as thematically incompatible with Warforged. And even that, it's debatable whether they're actually dragon-kin or just some mutant nutcase who shoots lasers out of his eyes, or just someone whose figured out a different way to warp reality to their whims than the typical Wizards. They make poor tanks due to their lacking healing amp, and they're not the top dps race either.

5 - Racial boosts - Humans don't really need any help; the free feat and some of the best racial enhancements make them a strong contender for pretty much every class. What Fighter Kensai doesn't love double-stacking Haste Boost IV and Damage Boost IV, all with 10-30% more healing amp than others can get? While Half-Elves can get the same, they trade out that free feat for a dilettante feat which may or may not be useful to them. Even if it is, they often have to trade build points from one stat to the one that opens up their desired dilettante feat. Whats more, is they are HIDEOUS. Seriously, a Dwarf's backside looks better than a Half-Elf's face.

Elves and Drow, on the other hand, definitely need a boost. Some of the better posters have threads here already, so I won't elaborate much on them. Many of the suggestions revolve around improving Drow SR further through enhancements, enough to make it viable but not over-powering, and giving them exclusive CHA and INT lines, which they could take to get a DC advantage as casters. The enhancement reset also has potential, particularly for Drow, who look to gain Tempest last I checked.

6 - Quicken as a Must-Have feat - Quicken is only must have for two reasons: One you are getting hit in epics and no one can meet those Concentration Checks due to the stacked game design, and Two Mass Heal. If you're not a hybrid melee divine, you only need it for the latter. If Mass Heal was changed to a shorter cast time, on par with other mass cures, then I believe we would see it dumped by many, if not most, caster Divines. Hybrid Melees like the Soul Survivor or my own FvS would still find it useful. But mine is likely to LR into an Evoker at 12, once I can actually play a Divine Caster, unlike the prior levels where I can melee with a high STR, or melee with a mediocre STR and limited CC via spells. I would dearly love getting an open feat slot, as I said before.

Rebalancing mob damage so that you can actually have a viable concentration score and even they would consider dumping it. It would become a convenience feat, much like Extend. Useful, far more than Extend is now, but not necessary in the least.

7 - AC - AC is borked. Devs know this, we know this, Madfloys is supposed to start a Let's Talk about it finally. This is a key reason melee are "under-powered", it's not a lack of dps or that every caster starts off from Korthos with a Wizard past life a couple of con-opp items and a torc. It's that melee have little means to avoid or mitigate damage. This also includes melee CC abilities. I have some ideas, but I've already spent far too much time on this wall of text, and have a doctor's appointment to drag someone too. Plus, I've been up for 22 hours straight as of now.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 07:15 AM
I love all these "I don't need quicken anyway" posts. That's why this change is a good idea.

It won't affect soloists, and it won't affect casters who are playing through encounters in an offensive way.
It will punish people who want to sit behind a shield and outpower the encounters with dots.

When an epic boss and 16 of his minions can't outdps my DR and selfhealing, I think the game is broken. I can see normal being that easy to outpower, and hard being possible. Epic is supposed to be epic.

HungarianRhapsody
02-03-2012, 07:20 AM
I love all these "I don't need quicken anyway" posts. That's why this change is a good idea.

It won't affect soloists, and it won't affect casters who are playing through encounters in an offensive way.
It will punish people who want to sit behind a shield and outpower the encounters with dots.

When an epic boss and 16 of his minions can't outdps my DR and selfhealing, I think the game is broken. I can see normal being that easy to outpower, and hard being possible. Epic is supposed to be epic.

It actually will affect a lot of soloists because even one failed reconstruct or one failed Heal/Mass Heal when the damage is coming in hot and heavy will cause the quest to fail when you're soloing.

Even worse is the fact that just one failed concentration check on a Heal or Mass Heal will cause a fair number of raids to wipe.

I know that you hate self healing casters and it's okay that you hate them. You can feel however you want to feel about any aspect of the game that you choose. But please don't work at ruining the game for the rest of us just because you don't like how it's played.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 07:26 AM
I love all these "I don't need quicken anyway" posts. That's why this change is a good idea.

It won't affect soloists, and it won't affect casters who are playing through encounters in an offensive way.
It will punish people who want to sit behind a shield and outpower the encounters with dots.

When an epic boss and 16 of his minions can't outdps my DR and selfhealing, I think the game is broken. I can see normal being that easy to outpower, and hard being possible. Epic is supposed to be epic.

And it will punish those melees that depend on quicken for selfhealing, while mildly inconveniencing casters.

Funny, considering complaints about melees lacking self healing ability.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 07:27 AM
It actually will affect a lot of soloists because even one failed reconstruct or one failed Heal/Mass Heal when the damage is coming in hot and heavy will cause the quest to fail when you're soloing.

Even worse is the fact that just one failed concentration check on a Heal or Mass Heal will cause a fair number of raids to wipe.

I know that you hate self healing casters and it's okay that you hate them. You can feel however you want to feel about any aspect of the game that you choose. But please don't work at ruining the game for the rest of us just because you don't like how it's played.

I'm not "working at runing the game". I think the game is broken right now and this is the best way I could think of fixing it. Hopefully a dev will read this and see that it's a good idea.

I'm sure that if this change comes through and you start paying more attention to combat, you will like it.

Angelus_dead
02-03-2012, 07:49 AM
It actually will affect a lot of soloists because even one failed reconstruct or one failed Heal/Mass Heal when the damage is coming in hot and heavy will cause the quest to fail when you're soloing.
Yes, that is currently the case, which is why removing Concentration-immunity from Quicken is a change that shouldn't be done in isolation.

Currently DDO has too high a ratio between cure spells and player hitpoints, so that survival from moment to moment depends too heavily on each spell completing reliably. It would be better if healers could not refill an average teammate in just one affordable non-critical spell, and if monster's median damage were correspondingly lower.

Chai
02-03-2012, 07:52 AM
All making quicken useless would do is raise the DC of a secondary schools by 1, or grant shield mastery to every caster that hasnt fit it in yet. Making extend useless already accomplished one of those.

justagame
02-03-2012, 07:56 AM
Yes, that is currently the case, which is why removing Concentration-immunity from Quicken is a change that shouldn't be done in isolation.

Currently DDO has too high a ratio between cure spells and player hitpoints, so that survival from moment to moment depends too heavily on each spell completing reliably. It would be better if healers could not refill an average teammate in just one affordable non-critical spell, and if monster's median damage were correspondingly lower.

If mob damage and healing power are lowered proportionally, you're still spamming heals just as often in order to keep up with damage. And doing so while losing a bunch of castings to failed concentration checks doesn't sound like an improvement.

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 08:26 AM
It will punish people who want to sit behind a shield and outpower the encounters with dots.


So ... the problem isn't Quicken. It hasn't been. The problem is DoTs and their stacking, multiplicative nature.

FranOhmsford
02-03-2012, 08:29 AM
OK Huge post - Had to snip it.



Quite frankly, if Mass Heal ever gets a sane casting speed, I may drop it on my FvS as well and not look back. I tend to use scrolls when soloing, which can't be quickened. Saves sp for offensive casting, and I rarely let myself get hit enough to cause a concentration check. I believe any real Divine would love having an additional feat slot opened by not absolutely requiring Quicken.

And



6 - Quicken as a Must-Have feat - Quicken is only must have for two reasons: One you are getting hit in epics and no one can meet those Concentration Checks due to the stacked game design, and Two Mass Heal. If you're not a hybrid melee divine, you only need it for the latter. If Mass Heal was changed to a shorter cast time, on par with other mass cures, then I believe we would see it dumped by many, if not most, caster Divines. Hybrid Melees like the Soul Survivor or my own FvS would still find it useful. But mine is likely to LR into an Evoker at 12, once I can actually play a Divine Caster, unlike the prior levels where I can melee with a high STR, or melee with a mediocre STR and limited CC via spells. I would dearly love getting an open feat slot, as I said before.

You just contradicted yourself massively with these two statements.

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5 - Racial boosts - Humans don't really need any help; the free feat and some of the best racial enhancements make them a strong contender for pretty much every class. What Fighter Kensai doesn't love double-stacking Haste Boost IV and Damage Boost IV, all with 10-30% more healing amp than others can get? While Half-Elves can get the same, they trade out that free feat for a dilettante feat which may or may not be useful to them. Even if it is, they often have to trade build points from one stat to the one that opens up their desired dilettante feat. Whats more, is they are HIDEOUS. Seriously, a Dwarf's backside looks better than a Half-Elf's face.

Elves and Drow, on the other hand, definitely need a boost. Some of the better posters have threads here already, so I won't elaborate much on them. Many of the suggestions revolve around improving Drow SR further through enhancements, enough to make it viable but not over-powering, and giving them exclusive CHA and INT lines, which they could take to get a DC advantage as casters. The enhancement reset also has potential, particularly for Drow, who look to gain Tempest last I checked.

I agree on H-Elf facial features - I have H-Orcs that look better than my H-Elves.
Humans one free feat is barely needed on a fighter but makes a huge difference to an FS or a Cleric.
Still I don't believe it's enough compared to what H-Orcs, H-Elves and Warforged get.

Improving Drow SR seems a good idea but where do you draw the line? Draw it too early and it's still useless, Draw it too late and it's OP.
You've basically got an exact number with spell res where you're either gonna get hit no matter what or with one higher never gonna get hit at all.

Cha and Int lines would be far more worthwhile {by all means have taking one line lock out the other and Dex}.

Yes the enhancement reset is going to change a lot of things - We don't know exactly what though yet so can only talk about what's ingame at this moment.
For me though the Tempest line as racial will be rather a letdown unless it gives the two weapon feats - If it doesn't then only fighters will be able to afford to take it anyway.

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4 - WF class restrictions - Not needed. They're not the clear top choice for Wizards since PMs can now reliably and efficiently self-heal, and definitely not for Evoker FvS. Monks are trained in their abilities just like a Fighter is, so thematically you can't really argue for that unless you want to say Warforged can't be any class at all, and they aren't necessarily the best at being a Monk either. FvS are chosen, so that only leaves Sorcerers as thematically incompatible with Warforged. And even that, it's debatable whether they're actually dragon-kin or just some mutant nutcase who shoots lasers out of his eyes, or just someone whose figured out a different way to warp reality to their whims than the typical Wizards. They make poor tanks due to their lacking healing amp, and they're not the top dps race either.


Here of course I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Class restrictions are never gonna happen no matter what I personally feel.

If they were however to put class restrictions in I'd consider it strange if FS, Monk and even Bard were allowed as all are heavily innate - Yes you can be taught music or martial arts but these are supernatural abilities {not learned from books like a Wizard or gained through faith like a Cleric, Paladin or even at a stretch Ranger}.
A FavSoul is chosen by the God's - He/She does not choose who they are - They are destined shall we say.
A Monk has to be centered - How can a Warforged be centered ever? Also how does a warforged have the lithe body required to perform these abilities in the first place?
A Bard - People learn music all the time BUT it's the ones who were born with it that we all remember, Art in my view cannot be taught, Acting again is innate for those who we all know and love.

I'm not sure there is a clear top choice racially for monk at all - I do believe that WF can be extremely powerful monks however.
FS - Again I'm not talking about a DPS caster - WF FavSouls are invariably melee specced with Blade Barrier and DP as neither require DC to be super high.
As for Wizard - I see quite a few WF PMs ingame - I'm not at all sure that they are any weaker here than a fleshy and certainly are #1 for AM.

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2 - Turn Undead - This has been helped some with RS, but the lack of high-end Undead and the differences in Hit Die between DDO and 3.5e means it's functionally useless outside of fueling special abilities. Reworking it to not rely on HD would make it work better, but we'd need end-game content with Undead as a focus in order to make it shine. And AD/Gordon would whine that Turn Undead trivializes this new content, so NERF NOW! Also, Necropolis series ranks among the least popular packs in the game; only Threnal, Restless Isles, and Catacombs come close. And Catacombs is also Undead-centric.

The problem is melee have a harder time with Undead; they get no crits on them, they're immune to many status effects that melee can put down on them, immune to SA damage, etc... Thus casters would be "over-powered" here too, particularly if Clerics' Turn Undead was changed to actually be worth using on Undead, unstead of just fueling bursts and auras.

Just because there's so few undead at end game currently those we do come across have to be completely immune to TU - Really? Is this what you're saying?

Quests with Undead in also don't stop at Abbot - Though that's clearly end-game content even now.

Sands Epics
Red Fens - Epic Fathom the Depths, Last Stand?
Sentinels - Epic Black Loch
Reaver's Reach Explorer zones - 2 of which are undead centric.
Dreaming Dark
SubT
Gianthold Tor

I believe the Giant Skeletons in the last two can't be turned at all

Personally I like Restless Isles and Catacombs - Threnal apart from Coyle isn't that bad either.

And what's so bad about Divines having one enemy they can take apart easier than any other class?

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1 - FvS should be more like Sorc than Cleric - The issue here is that there are too few Divine spells for nuking. Outside of Divine Punishment for bosses, and Blade Barrier for moving trash, they don't have much. The fire spells are weak, as divines don't have much to boost them with, just 30% from the FvS PrE. Cometfall is great, But is at level 6 with BB. Before Spell Level 6, they have no efficient AoE spells. Before SL4, no AoE spells at all, and only crappy single targets until 3.

Coupled with the innate DR and resistances, this makes them more ideally suited for melee hybrids than casters. They still make excellent casters mind you, but even AoV seems half-designed around a melee hybrid than a full out caster.

Quite frankly, I feel that Clerics should be better casters, with FvS sitting in between Paladins and Clerics for melee. But, since we're lacking an offensive casting line, instead the "healer" line as the melee whined about wanting healers to do nothing but heal them for so long, there's an imbalance there. Clerics are definitely better as splashed hybrid melee builds though; they lose far less, and actually gain quite a bit with a Monk splash.



I'm the opposite of you then in feeling that FS should be caster specced and Clerics melee {though not as heavily melee as Pallies - Who desperately need a boost still}.

Yes the Divine spell list is a joke for DPS - Searing Light needs to be as good as Scorching Ray in the hands of a Fire Sorc.
Divine Vengeance needs to be much stronger.
Nimbus could do with being boosted to equal MM on a Force specced AM.
Chaos Hammer and Order's Wrath need to be much more powerful vs their opposite.
Holy Smite is good but not quite good enough.
FlameStrike is completely useless - God doesn't miss.
Cometfall suffers the same problem as FlameStrike tho much less so.

The biggest problem though is that the top two DPS spells in a divine's arsenal do not require a DC.

I've seen plenty of people advocate minimising wisdom/charisma to just what is needed to get 9th lvl spells because of this.

This just pushes people into the prescribed melee FS build {Warforged of course as we all know Sword and Board is pointless and 2 weapon fighting is far too expensive}.

My suggestion would be for Blade Barrier to be given a DC and allowed to hit more than once - Make it so Mobs will pass their saves 80-90% of the time if you must but make having a high Wisdom needed.
Searing Light on the other hand would hit every time
Cometfall and FlameStrike could have higher DCs that mobs are less likely to save against but would be a oneshot compared to Blade Barrier's continuous damage.
DP can remain as is.

Hopefully the smiting line will be completely rebuilt in the expansion.

BTW still trying to figure out why people advocate going pure STR/CON on an FS - Cha is SP and Wis is DCs
Cha needs to be base 10 {12 with +2 tome} to get spell lvl 9 with +7 item.
Wis is your spell DCs for everything other than BB and DP right?

Is it really possible to dump both these stats and if so do y'all believe this is fair?

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 08:34 AM
So ... the problem isn't Quicken. It hasn't been. The problem is DoTs and their stacking, multiplicative nature.

The dots alone would fine. I like the fact that I can take a caster along for a raid and have him do decent DPS. Quicken is what makes the passive taning playstyle so good.

With this change, you can still passively dot-tank, but it will be more expensive and risky than a more active kiting playstyle (for soloists) or having another player tank (for groups). If you don't want to move and think, you will lose dot stacks and you will have to heal more often.

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 09:00 AM
The dots alone would fine. I like the fact that I can take a caster along for a raid and have him do decent DPS. Quicken is what makes the passive taning playstyle so good.

With this change, you can still passively dot-tank, but it will be more expensive and risky than a more active kiting playstyle (for soloists) or having another player tank (for groups). If you don't want to move and think, you will lose dot stacks and you will have to heal more often.

I think my problem with your logic (and I see your logic) is that Quicken is a core D&D feat. The DoTs are not.

If one of the two goes, let's keep the core.

One other suggestion I had a while back was to move the really bad DoTs to 6th level. Want to really encourage some hard choices? 6th level spell slots are pretty harshly constrained. A FVS gets 3 ...

Mass Cure Light
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Heal

They already skip one. Put Divine Punishment there and now folks are making more serious choices. The big arcane dots (electric and cold) have good single target spells in that space as well, PMs are staring at Circle of Death and Necrotic Ray. Both are staring at disintegrate.



If the real problem is "does great DPS" and "can self heal" then make that a serious choice - don't remove the option to do one or the other effectively from the game. Choices, not removal of options ... but hard choices.

Bacab
02-03-2012, 09:05 AM
The dots alone would fine. I like the fact that I can take a caster along for a raid and have him do decent DPS. Quicken is what makes the passive taning playstyle so good.

With this change, you can still passively dot-tank, but it will be more expensive and risky than a more active kiting playstyle (for soloists) or having another player tank (for groups). If you don't want to move and think, you will lose dot stacks and you will have to heal more often.

Stupid question...

What are the "Arcane DoTs". I know the Divines have Divine Punishment.

I have a 17WIZ/2ROG that is an old toon and I recently Re-specced him. I am back from a 14 month break...back when I played him...I casted buffs on people and used Firewall, Polar Ray, CoC and FoD and that was pretty much it for damage. He was a Crowd Control enchanter (bard past life). He recently dinged lvl 17 WIZ so I now have WoB and its awesome.

I am blown away by the dmg my FVS do with DP....whats the Arcane Equivalent?

Just steer me in the right direction and I'll look it up and stuff.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 09:12 AM
snip

The DOTs are aesthetically unpleasant. Nuking casters looked and felt a lot cooler when it was about getting as many fireworks out there as quickly as possible for the best damage you could. Now "nuking" is sitting in place and letting the dots do their job.

Still, that's more of a "it looks and feels stupid" situation than a balance issue.

In core D&D, spells like heal, reconstruct and disintegrate are 6th level, so you can't cast a "quickened heal" unless you have epic spell levels. Restricting quicken to 5th level and lower spells would hurt people who are using it to cast spell faster more than the ones abusing the "no concentration checks" property.

justagame
02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
I think my problem with your logic (and I see your logic) is that Quicken is a core D&D feat. The DoTs are not.

If one of the two goes, let's keep the core.

One other suggestion I had a while back was to move the really bad DoTs to 6th level. Want to really encourage some hard choices? 6th level spell slots are pretty harshly constrained. A FVS gets 3 ...

Mass Cure Light
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Heal

They already skip one. Put Divine Punishment there and now folks are making more serious choices. The big arcane dots (electric and cold) have good single target spells in that space as well, PMs are staring at Circle of Death and Necrotic Ray. Both are staring at disintegrate.



If the real problem is "does great DPS" and "can self heal" then make that a serious choice - don't remove the option to do one or the other effectively from the game. Choices, not removal of options ... but hard choices.

First of all, level 5 does require some tradeoffs as-is:

Slay living
Raise dead (scrollable, but it helps to have multiple raise spells prepared when you have to do a number os raises in succession)
Greater Command
Break Enchantment
Mass cure light
Divine Punishment
Spell resistance (not my favorite, but some like it).

Moving DP to level 6 would just be cruel and unusual punishment, that level is horribly tight already. Might as well say "screw you" to FVS. It's one thing to have tradeoffs, it's another entirely to have pick just one trait for a character. This isn't WOW, this isn't the holy MMO trinity. If you have to choose between having the must-have spells necessary for endgame healing, and having the ONE USABLE single-target dps spell available to your class, I can't imagine many people playing that class.

To everyone who seems so insistent on neutering divines: If you really want to change the game in a way that makes divine classes choose between being a healbot at endgame, or being able to do meaningful damage, don't be surprised when there's no one left to heal your raids.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Stupid question...

What are the "Arcane DoTs". I know the Divines have Divine Punishment.

I have a 17WIZ/2ROG that is an old toon and I recently Re-specced him. I am back from a 14 month break...back when I played him...I casted buffs on people and used Firewall, Polar Ray, CoC and FoD and that was pretty much it for damage. He was a Crowd Control enchanter (bard past life). He recently dinged lvl 17 WIZ so I now have WoB and its awesome.

I am blown away by the dmg my FVS do with DP....whats the Arcane Equivalent?

Just steer me in the right direction and I'll look it up and stuff.

Eladar's electric surge and Niac's biting cold. They are very similar to divine punishment.

Chai
02-03-2012, 09:14 AM
Yes, that is currently the case, which is why removing Concentration-immunity from Quicken is a change that shouldn't be done in isolation.

Currently DDO has too high a ratio between cure spells and player hitpoints, so that survival from moment to moment depends too heavily on each spell completing reliably. It would be better if healers could not refill an average teammate in just one affordable non-critical spell, and if monster's median damage were correspondingly lower.

Theres another ratio that is completely unrealistic. Its the ratio between what mobs hit for, what players hit for, and how many HP the mobs have. DDO is more and more approaching a sammich game, when mobs have 3khp and hit for 75 points of damage.

If we nerf quicken, and make mobs hit for less, casters will drop quicken and pick up shield mastery. If they already have shield mastery, they will pick up a spell focus.

I dont believe this is the answer to lessening caster power.

Chai
02-03-2012, 09:18 AM
To everyone who seems so insistent on neutering divines: If you really want to change the game in a way that makes divine classes choose between being a healbot at endgame, or being able to do meaningful damage, don't be surprised when there's no one left to heal your raids.

This.

Make babysitter builds the only effective healers, and Im bringing back BYOH raids. If pure melee think they are getting the shaft nowdays due to casters being too powerful, wait until theres no one left to heal them either.

Feralthyrtiaq
02-03-2012, 09:21 AM
'oly flippin krispy kreme....


YOU were the one using a game mechanic to grief your party members IE "Mess with them"

JUST because you decided to play a prank or w/e doesn't mean others will/or do but...

NOW they probably will grief more since you've laid it out for them...

I for one question your credentials to even judge game balance given the nature of the game play that lead to your OP.

YOU were griefing....

IF thats your thing keep it to yourself and the poor saps who party with you....

But if your "Game" if F(ix)ing with people who party with you maybe this isn't the game for you...

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 09:23 AM
This.

Make babysitter builds the only effective healers, and Im bringing back BYOH raids. If pure melee think they are getting the shaft nowdays due to casters being too powerful, wait until theres no one left to heal them either.

This change would make babysitter builds less viable. If there is an orthon hitting you, you have to get rid of it, or your "babysitting" will start to fail at random.

ArcaneMelee
02-03-2012, 09:36 AM
...
When an epic boss and 16 of his minions can't outdps my DR and selfhealing, I think the game is broken. I can see normal being that easy to outpower, and hard being possible. Epic is supposed to be epic.

Um, what was your point in grinding out all that epic gear and torc then? You weren't by any chance thinking that it would make the game harder, did you?

10/- DR (effectively) that doesn't go away when your gear is smashed to oblivion sounds more Op than Quicken.

Just out of curiosity, how much damage was each of your 17 epic opponents doing, and how often? I am a touch skeptical of your claim.

ArcaneMelee
02-03-2012, 09:38 AM
This change would make babysitter builds less viable. If there is an orthon hitting you, you have to get rid of it, or your "babysitting" will start to fail at random.

How do you figure that? The baby sitter isn't the one getting hit by the orthon, so why would they need to make a concentration check?

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 09:43 AM
Um, what was your point in grinding out all that epic gear and torc then? You weren't by any chance thinking that it would make the game harder, did you?

10/- DR (effectively) that doesn't go away when your gear is smashed to oblivion sounds more Op than Quicken.

Just out of curiosity, how much damage was each of your 17 epic opponents doing, and how often? I am a touch skeptical of your claim.

I have no idea how much damage each of them was doing, I don't need to care, I can mash the capstone heal whenever it's off cooldown and the heal button when I get to 40% or so.

My blocking DR is 37 and some damage is mitigated by tower shield/shield mastery shenanigans. A mob that hits for 100 base damage deals 32 damage to me.

nicnivyn
02-03-2012, 09:46 AM
IMHO this is another of those gameplay choices. If you think the game is too easy because of X spell or Y feat or Z class ... don't play it. Build without quicken, don't take DOT spells on your divine/arcane, do not choose Warforged as a caster. Play with like-minded individuals. But also do not presume to decide that everyone else will appreciate or want to play your style or enjoy the same 'challenges' that you do.

Just as as example, the majority of Echrono posts I've see lately have been 'caster only' because it's 'faster and easier' to exclude melee. When my guild runs Echrono we take mostly melee, and pug our last spots to anything that hits the LFM. That's our gameplay choice. It makes it more challenging for us, and that's how we enjoy playing it. I would not however tell all those 'caster only' people they should play differently, because that's *their* gameplay choice and I respect their right to enjoy the game in the way they see fit.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 09:47 AM
Ok Kmnh, we get it, no quicken no DoT tanking, is there any other benifit from nerfing quicken, because thats the only thing you are focused on. That only leaves couple of dozen problems with caster superiority which are not tied to quicken.

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 09:48 AM
In core D&D, spells like heal, reconstruct and disintegrate are 6th level, so you can't cast a "quickened heal" unless you have epic spell levels. Restricting quicken to 5th level and lower spells would hurt people who are using it to cast spell faster more than the ones abusing the "no concentration checks" property.

In D&D you can cast on the defensive and never need quicken. That doesn't exist in DDO.

Quicken was for when you wanted to do 2 spells in the same round. Non-core there were PLENTY of ways to reduce metamagic costs too (and in core, rods for some).



@justagame - I'm doing a bit of Devil's Advocate to dig to the nut of the problem on these posts. What is the issue? Is it really self-healing? Is it all healing? If the FVS can nuke like a mother but still has to scroll heal themselves ... is that ok? All those videos I see of fleshie sorcs soloing epics and scroll healing ... is the problem REALLY self healing? Is it only self healing when a caster replaces a tank? I know fleshies can tank some serious stuff and heal through it ... and I know they can kite and DoT and heal through it.

This thread is attacking Quicken as a way to remove self healing. That won't limit the fleshies who are doing it today anyway and won't really balance anything ... other than removing the option for people to build more capable self healers.

So ...

(1) Offensive DPS
(2) Instakill DCs
(3) Ability to withstand / tank
(4) Ability to self heal

All these at the same time - I totally agree is too much. Removing #4 by killing quicken ... this hurts divines who want to heal and removes entirely anyone's ability to self heal. Fleshie sorcs will still be seen as overpowered ... SO THE PROBLEM IS NOT SELF HEALING.

I think a caster should be able to invest feats and build points to be able to do some of those, but not all. There's a bias by some that think #4 should never ever be allowed and they want to remove that option.

Me, I want someone who wants to build for that to have that option ... but I'm ok if the cost is such that they can't do the others on the list. I'm even ok if a first lifer can only reasonably do two ... and a multiple-lifer three ... and I'm totally fine with a multiple-multiple-TR with lots of gear being able to do all 4.



Changes that require a choice - I'm great with. Changes that completely lock out some tactics and possibilities I think are as lame as blanket immunities.

DragonMageT
02-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I have no idea how much damage each of them was doing, I don't need to care, I can mash the capstone heal whenever it's off cooldown and the heal button when I get to 40% or so.

My blocking DR is 37 and some damage is mitigated by tower shield/shield mastery shenanigans. A mob that hits for 100 base damage deals 32 damage to me.

Ah, so now we get to the real cause of the problem...your DR plus shield mastery.

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Ah, so now we get to the real cause of the problem...your DR plus shield mastery.

And the fact that the DoTs do incredible damage in a fire and forget way.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Ok Kmnh, we get it, no quicken no DoT tanking, is there any other benifit from nerfing quicken, because thats the only thing you are focused on. That only leaves couple of dozen problems with caster superiority which are not tied to quicken.

The thread started out talking about how it was easier to run past everything and dot the boss down than to kill any trash or throw out any support. I didn't expect it to become a "nerf casters!" fest.

Morticianjohn and I touched on the other benefits on the first two pages.

No "heal through inferno" means the abbot health doesn't need to be that high for the raid to be interesting. No "heal through the electric floors" means people will actually pay attention to the patterns in Master Artificer.

Arcanes would be punished for not laying out crowd control for enemy melees and for leaving enemy casters free for too long, instead of shrugging off the damage and heaing himself.

I can't think of situations where this change doesn't improve gameplay, and the ones where it becomes an issue can be changed anyway.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 10:11 AM
*snip*
I can't think of situations where this change doesn't improve gameplay, and the ones where it becomes an issue can be changed anyway.

Here is one, which i already mentioned, paladins and rangers selfhealing leans heavily on quicken.

And then about arcane casters, most of them don't even have quicken, and still can run to the end, dot the boss and more or less ignore the trash. Same is probably true for divine caster, except they carry quicken for raid healing.

Healing trough inferno, never seen it, its usualy ice pad on the east so i can't comment.

Basicly, you list minor benifits in regards to so called "balance", without looking at bunch of negative effect that change would bring to the game. So, sorry but i'm not convinced that quicken should be changed, got any better arguments?

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 10:18 AM
Here is one, which i already mentioned, paladins and rangers selfhealing leans heavily on quicken.


I have a ranger without quicken that I don't play that often anymore. Disengage from melee combat and heal yourself. I see no reason to let a ranger heal himself while being smacked around by a boss. Same goes for paladins.

DragonMageT
02-03-2012, 10:29 AM
And the fact that the DoTs do incredible damage in a fire and forget way.

Even without DoTs going, the amount of incoming damage was reduced to a point it was easily over come by capstone heal + heal.

High DR + Shield Mastery + Torc + Con opp + Capstone heal + Heal, I would think that would have lasted forever without doing any damage to the boss.

So which is truly the problem: quicken or the fact that incoming damage (because of build) was reduced greatly.
32 out of 100 according to the OP.

grgurius
02-03-2012, 10:35 AM
Ok Kmnh, thanks for the tip on how to play a paly, but you didnt answer my question.

All of the arguments you listed, none of the problems has roots in usage of quicken. So i ask you again, do you have any arguments where quicken is the main source of problems?

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 10:38 AM
Even without DoTs going, the amount of incoming damage was reduced to a point it was easily over come by capstone heal + heal.

High DR + Shield Mastery + Torc + Con opp + Capstone heal + Heal, I would think that would have lasted forever without doing any damage to the boss.

So which is truly the problem: quicken or the fact that incoming damage (because of build) was reduced greatly.
32 out of 100 according to the OP.

It's the fact you can do it all. The question is ... what should be core, what should be the "easiest" and what should be more difficult and require investment.

This is why I'm a fan of choices based on limited slots (spell slots, feats, whatever) in general or slight reductions (lowering the benefit of basic shield mastery - it's hugely front loaded ... lowering the stacking benefits of DoTs) as opposed to removing mechanics entirely.

Give players a choice ... if they want to do X and Y, maybe they can't do A or B. Taking A out of the equation entirely just leads to less choice.


I wouldn't mind if we could build for DR/resist based defenses (resists, DR, etc.), AC, miss (incorp/blur/displace) and % mitigation (earth stance, shield mastery, elemental aborptions) ... and on that last one I'm assuming it's something the devs have added because the HP/damage scale is way different in DDO than PNP. Anyway, I don't mind folks can build for that.

Building for that isn't the problem.

Building for that AND good DoT damage AND good self healing means you're a DPS-Tank-Self Healer. That's fun for you, but probably not good for the game and everyone else. Instead of removing self healing, I'm a fan of any options that makes choices available to players ... but at a cost.

Dwarfo
02-03-2012, 10:38 AM
god no. do you want EVEN MORE wf sorcs????
/not signed

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Even without DoTs going, the amount of incoming damage was reduced to a point it was easily over come by capstone heal + heal.

High DR + Shield Mastery + Torc + Con opp + Capstone heal + Heal, I would think that would have lasted forever without doing any damage to the boss.

So which is truly the problem: quicken or the fact that incoming damage (because of build) was reduced greatly.
32 out of 100 according to the OP.

Quicken. Melee damage is never the main threat in DDO. If you don't have quicken, those fireballs, chain lightnings and meteor swarms flying at your face have a chance of breaking your self-healing. Take one at the wrong time and you are done.

Of course, if you are playing actively, killing casters and standing out of the way of fireballs, you won't die to that, but in that case you don't take melee damage either.

voodoogroves
02-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Even without DoTs going, the amount of incoming damage was reduced to a point it was easily over come by capstone heal + heal.

High DR + Shield Mastery + Torc + Con opp + Capstone heal + Heal, I would think that would have lasted forever without doing any damage to the boss.

So which is truly the problem: quicken or the fact that incoming damage (because of build) was reduced greatly.
32 out of 100 according to the OP.

One more thing, 'cause it's funny.

Let's take that same person and make them a sorc with lots of healing amp carrying the biggest heal wand they can carry, some form of DR (earthen guard, innate DR, stoneskin), DP clickies and the same shield. For the sake of fun, give them 1 level of fighter (no capstone) and shield mastery. Displacement, of course, with fast casting sorc capabilities and a cloudkill thrown in.

I bet there are folks who can tank the same boss using that setup.

Hoglum
02-03-2012, 10:42 AM
I see no reason to let a ranger heal himself while being smacked around by a boss. Same goes for paladins.


Maybe so he could do something other than die? Not sure about you but I like to be able to do something about it when a boss is smacking me around. Investing in quicken, healing amp, etc. is so you can actually have options for survival.

I see no reason a Ranger should not be able to heal himself while getting beat up. It's a benefit of the class and investing build points into making that benefit better should yield the intended results.

ArcaneMelee
02-03-2012, 10:44 AM
I have no idea how much damage each of them was doing, I don't need to care, I can mash the capstone heal whenever it's off cooldown and the heal button when I get to 40% or so.

My blocking DR is 37 and some damage is mitigated by tower shield/shield mastery shenanigans. A mob that hits for 100 base damage deals 32 damage to me.

Ah, so now we get to the real cause of the problem...your DR plus shield mastery.

Indeed. Plus we also get a peek at the motivation - nerf all the casters except his.

If one is only taking 32 damage from a mob dealing 100 damage, it ain't Quicken that's the culprit here. 32 + 10 + 6 = 48 is a trivial amount of concentration to acquire.

23 (ranks) + 8 (Con) + 4 (GH) + 2 (luck) + 15 (item) = 52

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Maybe so he could do something other than die? Not sure about you but I like to be able to do something about it when a boss if smacking me around. Investing in quicken, healing amp, etc. is so you can actually have options for survival.

I see no reason a Ranger should not be able to heal himself while getting beat up. It's a benefit of the class and investing build points into making that benefit better should yield the intended results.

Your "option not to die" is to disengage for a few seconds and heal yourself.

If you are not forced to disengage, you can just stand there and let it become a game of attrirtion. A silly DPS test, like it happens on all those crappy passive-combat MMOs out there.

Remember: reaching a highish concentration score is easy. You can run all normal content and most of hard counting on concentration to work. Melee mobs only hit for 70+ if you are doing endgame elite content, some epics or raids.

Hoglum
02-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Your "option not to die" is to disengage for a few seconds and heal yourself.

If you are not forced to disengage, you can just stand there and let it become a game of attrirtion. A silly DPS test, like it happens on all those crappy passive-combat MMOs out there.



I like this answer and agree but it's not always easy to run. Every now and then you need an emergency heal, especially when you're getting gang beaten. I'm not really sure what "harried" is other than an oddball, made-up gamemechanic but I do know you're not running from things all that effectively while under the influence. DA isn't always controllable.

DragonMageT
02-03-2012, 11:10 AM
Quicken. Melee damage is never the main threat in DDO. If you don't have quicken, those fireballs, chain lightnings and meteor swarms flying at your face have a chance of breaking your self-healing. Take one at the wrong time and you are done.

Of course, if you are playing actively, killing casters and standing out of the way of fireballs, you won't die to that, but in that case you don't take melee damage either.

So if I take a tank build (high hp, high heal amp, high damage reduction) and do the same thing but use SF pots instead of quicken heal spells, what does that prove ? not my tank but i have heard of tanks self healing for over 600+ per pot.

I am only limited by the amount of SF pots that I can carry but still could DPS down the boss with little effort and Quicken is not even in the equation.

It's not quicken regardless of what you claim...you took one very specific build and claim victory over the quest.
Others can take different very specific builds and do the same.

it doesn't mean that quicken was the problem.

DragonMageT
02-03-2012, 11:12 AM
One more thing, 'cause it's funny.

Let's take that same person and make them a sorc with lots of healing amp carrying the biggest heal wand they can carry, some form of DR (earthen guard, innate DR, stoneskin), DP clickies and the same shield. For the sake of fun, give them 1 level of fighter (no capstone) and shield mastery. Displacement, of course, with fast casting sorc capabilities and a cloudkill thrown in.

I bet there are folks who can tank the same boss using that setup.

Dang you! kind of the same thing I said....but you beat me to it :)

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 11:16 AM
So if I take a tank build (high ac, high heal amp, high damage reduction) and do the same thing but use SF pots instead of quicken heal spells, what does that prove ? not my tank but i have heard of tanks self healing for over 600+ per pot.


If you want to burn 400 plat on each heal, that's fine. You are still limited by your inventory, and the sf pot has movement and casting stat penalties.


It's not quicken regardless of what you claim...you took one very specific build and claim victory over the quest.
Others can take different very specific builds and do the same.
it doesn't mean that quicken was the problem.


I don't want to make the tanking playstyle unplayable, I want to make it a bit riskier and a bit more expensive, so it won't be the optimal way to play anymore.

Sanadil
02-03-2012, 12:12 PM
/not signed. This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've seen on these forums in a while.

DragonMageT
02-03-2012, 12:36 PM
I don't want to make the tanking playstyle unplayable, I want to make it a bit riskier and a bit more expensive, so it won't be the optimal way to play anymore.

I am not suggesting to make the tanking play style unplayable either.

I do like making it more expensive in terms of feats / APs specifically aimed at casters.

Oh dear lord, did I really suggest that...nerf the caster :)


voodoogroves said it very well, you can build a tank FVS / whatever but it's going to cost you.

Shield Mastery is very front loaded, it should be

Shield Mastery 5%
Improved Shield Mastery +20% for a total of 25% tower shield

It doesn't harm the melee tank builds but makes it 2 feat costly for tank casters almost to the point that they won't even take it or it's going to be a huge trade off.

Does it completely fix everything, no but its a step in the right direction IMO

I would like to see your results if you did the same quest again without quicken on ?
Would it make that much of a difference because of your damage mitigation.

Monkey_Archer
02-03-2012, 12:40 PM
To entertain the idea, heres one possible implementation:

Quicken: While active, spells cast twice as fast and cost 5 additional spell points

Combat casting: You gain +4 to your concentration checks when damaged in combat. In addition, for the purposes of concentration checks, all damage is reduced by 25%.

Mobile spell casting: You now move at nearly standard movement speed when casting spells. When hit by spells, if you make a successful reflex save you will automatically pass your concentration check. If the you fail your save, or the spell does not have a saving throw, the spell damage is reduced by 50% for the purposes of concentration checks.

MRMechMan
02-03-2012, 12:55 PM
Incredibly not undersigned. There is just NO WAY to get a good enough concentration score to even begin to replace quicken. Not even close. Enemies hit far too hard and I don't think being about to no-fail heals under pressure is a BAD THING. Imagine any situation at endgame where a healer might take damage, and having to explain to a party that you failed a concentration check and you had to wait 10seconds for mass heal to be off timer. Spell damage can easily be 100-200+ damage. Try getting that much concentration. Report back.

I REALLY don't see how quicken advocates greiving. Terrible, terrible logic. Just really bad.

PEOPLE cause grieving with or without specific feats. People. If people want to grieve, they will.

That same feat that enabled you to grieve your party (still not entirely sure how you are blaming a feat for this) also allows you to heal a party effectively. No quicken, no effective healing at endgame.

You've made a lot of good suggestions. I really, really don't think this is one of them.

There are a lot of things that make casters incredibly powerful. QUicken IS one of them. However, I don't think this is the issue that should be changed to create balance.

waterboytkd
02-03-2012, 01:15 PM
This has to be the worst idea in the string of caster-melee balance threads ever.

Quicken isn't the problem. Take this away, and all you've done is kill tank-casters. Casters will still be kings. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but the highest ranked guild on my server is almost entirely caster-players, yet NOT ONE of them has a shield-tanking caster. Why? Because they think it's too slow. They could do the same stuff on a Savant or DC-specced PM much much faster (their words). These guys are very veteran, and some have been playing since the game launched. So no quicken for them would be a pain, but they try to not get hit as much as possible anyways. They'd survive, they'd still smash content. All this would do is incredibly annoy all casters, screw over healers, and kill caster-tanks.

This whole thing about caster-tanks really has me confused. Yes, it's a good strategy. But, as mentioned before, I know a lot of AMAZING caster players who do not like it. Why hate on it? It's just one of the many strategies we could employ, and it's not necessary to beat the game, nor does it trivialize the game any more than a hefty dose of player skill already does.

The melee-caster balance isn't dependent on quicken or caster-tanking. Those are not the root of the problem. The problems are ranged-killing, AoEs, and self healing, with the first two being the most significant. Casters can fight from a distance, and they can kill multiple mobs at once. That alone makes them so much more powerful than melees in trash mob situations, especially at epic, because they're not dealing with just one mob at a time and it means they have MUCH less incoming damage. Give a melee those capabilities, and I think you'd find that the self-healing a melee can get access to (helf divine dilly, UMD, SF pots, etc) is more than enough.

As for tanking bosses...who cares? If the caster is built to tank, then shouldn't they be able to tank? I mean, what do you people want? Cookie cutter casters? The strength of DDO is the customization you have in building toons. Being able to make caster-tanks is a part of that. Trying to take that away makes me wonder what your objective is. Force casters into specific roles? You want your healers to just be healers? Your casters to just be CC buff-bots who never get their hands dirty? Sure, they won't be relegated to those roles by losing quicken, they'll still be the best, and the cries for nerf will still roll in. Eventually, if you nerf enough, casters will be eunuchs, like in the pre U-9 days, where a group NEVER let in more than 1 caster in tough content. Casters are in a good place right now in terms of playability/viability. It's melees that aren't in a good place.

The only problems I see between casters and melees is melees can't handle groups of end-game mobs on their own, and dps vs bosses is a bit skewed by the fact that AC and Fortification (the main forms of boss damage mitigation) have no bearing on casters. Buff melees to better handle mobs, make sure Raid bosses don't have crazy ACs (on Malicia it's fine, but put that on LoB, for example, and you'd have a problem), and make Fortification work on spell crits AND weapon crits. You'd see the playing field largely leveled. Add on better self-healing for melees, and they might even be equals at that point.

PS My apologies. I did do a little editing after a response.

grodon9999
02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
The only problems I see between casters and melees is melees can't handle groups of end-game mobs on their own, and dps vs bosses is a bit skewed by the fact that AC and Fortification (the main forms of boss damage mitigation) have no bearing on casters. Buff melees to better handle mobs, make sure Raid bosses don't have crazy ACs, and make Fortification work on spell crits AND weapon crits, and you'll see the playing field largely leveled.

/Signed

danotmano1998
02-03-2012, 01:24 PM
This has to be the worst idea in the string of caster-melee balance threads ever.

Quicken isn't the problem. All this would do is incredibly annoy all casters, screw over healers, and kill caster-tanks.

Casters are in a good place right now in terms of playability/viability. It's melees that aren't in a good place.

The only problems I see between casters and melees is melees can't handle groups of end-game mobs on their own, and dps vs bosses is a bit skewed by the fact that AC and Fortification (the main forms of boss damage mitigation) have no bearing on casters. Buff melees to better handle mobs, make sure Raid bosses don't have crazy ACs , and make Fortification work on spell crits AND weapon crits. You'd see the playing field largely leveled. Add on better self-healing for melees, and they might even be equals at that point.

Agreed on all the above points.
Thank you for putting it so well! +1

irivan
02-03-2012, 01:43 PM
/not signed....

Their at again...nerf casters they are too OP, I cant have fun, because they are having to much fun...

I dont think so try barking up some other tree.

azrael4h
02-03-2012, 06:08 PM
You just contradicted yourself massively with these two statements.

How is saying that I only carry Quicken for Mass Heal because of it's casting length and would drop it if I could and then saying it's primarily a must have because of Mass Heal's casting length contradict each other? On my Sorc, I don't bother with it, and even on my Hybrid FvS, it's not needed for self healing, or used, because Heal casts fast enough if I need to cast it, but otherwise I do like I do on pretty much everybody and pop a Heal scroll to heal, which cannot be quickened.

The only exception is for hybrid melee FvS and Clerics, which will need it. Though mine tends to self-heal with scrolls anyway.



I agree on H-Elf facial features - I have H-Orcs that look better than my H-Elves.
Humans one free feat is barely needed on a fighter but makes a huge difference to an FS or a Cleric.
Still I don't believe it's enough compared to what H-Orcs, H-Elves and Warforged get.

You're not looking at the 25% damage boost, +1 to two stats, and 30% Healing Amp. That Damage boost is huge when coupled on a Haste Boost class, and Healing Amp is a requirement for any real melee. That's in addition to a feat which is also huge on at least 8 out of the 12 classes, which are feat starved. This is a far cry from the +2-4 damage and +2 to-hit on racial weapons that Elves and Drow get, and +2 to DEX.



Improving Drow SR seems a good idea but where do you draw the line? Draw it too early and it's still useless, Draw it too late and it's OP.
You've basically got an exact number with spell res where you're either gonna get hit no matter what or with one higher never gonna get hit at all.

The line was drawn too early as it is, though that's a function of how the end game is designed. Lowering the caster level of the mobs down (without actually changing their stats in any way, they could actually stand for a buff) would have the same effect of making Drow SR useful. Then it's a matter of careful testing, and the devs deciding where "useful" and "obnoxious" lies.




For me though the Tempest line as racial will be rather a letdown unless it gives the two weapon feats - If it doesn't then only fighters will be able to afford to take it anyway.

Actually, IIRC Eladrin said that feat pre-reqs were getting looked at as well. After all, Tempest is useless if it still costs the 4 feats to take, and then 3 more to actually get use out of. I raised that point in the Let's Talk: Enhancements thread.




Just because there's so few undead at end game currently those we do come across have to be completely immune to TU - Really? Is this what you're saying?

Quests with Undead in also don't stop at Abbot - Though that's clearly end-game content even now.

Sands Epics
Red Fens - Epic Fathom the Depths, Last Stand?

Literacy is your friend. I said that currently Turn Undead is not working properly due to the mob hit die being so inflated, and even if it was changed to work well in the confines of DDO, we'd really need more Undead-centric content to let it shine. Right now, no sane Cleric will dump CON or WIS to make a Turning-focused build. The last time I saw one posted on the forums, back when we had a sane forums layout, it was torn apart and left for dead.

I'm the opposite of you then in feeling that FS should be caster specced and Clerics melee {though not as heavily melee as Pallies - Who desperately need a boost still}.



Yes the Divine spell list is a joke for DPS - Searing Light needs to be as good as Scorching Ray in the hands of a Fire Sorc.
Divine Vengeance needs to be much stronger.
Nimbus could do with being boosted to equal MM on a Force specced AM.
Chaos Hammer and Order's Wrath need to be much more powerful vs their opposite.
Holy Smite is good but not quite good enough.
FlameStrike is completely useless - God doesn't miss.
Cometfall suffers the same problem as FlameStrike tho much less so.

The biggest problem though is that the top two DPS spells in a divine's arsenal do not require a DC.

I've seen plenty of people advocate minimising wisdom/charisma to just what is needed to get 9th lvl spells because of this.

Divine Punishment, while powerful, is single target, and like every single target will drain a divine's pool rapidly if you try to use it on every mob in the place; it's a boss beater.

Also, CHA is minimized on a FvS because it does not affect DCs AT ALL. You don't see very many Cleric builds advocating a dumped Wisdom.



My suggestion would be for Blade Barrier to be given a DC and allowed to hit more than once - Make it so Mobs will pass their saves 80-90% of the time if you must but make having a high Wisdom needed.


This shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Blade Barrier is an Evocation spell with a DC. The difference between your WIS-dumped WF FvS's Blade Barrier and that of an Evoker with max WIS is like comparing a Yugo to a Imperial. Both might get you where you're going, but one is a luxury car (before it was a K Car it was at least).

It will also hit more than once, VERY easily. You kite the mobs through it. Don't drop it and run through once and call it a day. Don't drop it and shield block. You have to kite. And no, Wings don't really help here, since those are straight line affairs, and to maximize the damage output you need to circle.

Sirgog calls it a "weak, but situationally useful" Blade Barrier for a reason on the Soul Survivor. Having capped both a caster and a hybrid melee divine, I'll say the same thing; Blade Barrier is no where near as powerful on a WIS-dumped character as a max-WIS one. You're literally talking half the damage most of the time, except on evasion mobs, where you're talking no damage. It's like Implosion, yes I kept it on my hybrid melee, and found use for it. It's night and day compared to a real Divine Caster though.


How do you figure that? The baby sitter isn't the one getting hit by the orthon, so why would they need to make a concentration check?

Random Aggro FTW! I always laugh when people think that just because you play a nannybot, or stay in the back, you never draw aggro or take damage.


If you want to burn 400 plat on each heal, that's fine. You are still limited by your inventory, and the sf pot has movement and casting stat penalties.

I don't want to make the tanking playstyle unplayable, I want to make it a bit riskier and a bit more expensive, so it won't be the optimal way to play anymore.

So you're perfectly ok with divine casters popping 400+ plat per heal on you (scrolls), but refuse to even consider doing the same for yourself?

Now if you argue that the SF pot penalties need to go, agreed. Even move the lessers to 150 favor, and God knows they should actually stack in the inventory. Insisting others should foot the bill to heal you and you should never have to pay anything yourself is rather selfish, and I'd just let you die and let someone else tank.

FranOhmsford
02-03-2012, 07:26 PM
How is saying that I only carry Quicken for Mass Heal because of it's casting length and would drop it if I could and then saying it's primarily a must have because of Mass Heal's casting length contradict each other? On my Sorc, I don't bother with it, and even on my Hybrid FvS, it's not needed for self healing, or used, because Heal casts fast enough if I need to cast it, but otherwise I do like I do on pretty much everybody and pop a Heal scroll to heal, which cannot be quickened.

The only exception is for hybrid melee FvS and Clerics, which will need it. Though mine tends to self-heal with scrolls anyway.


Literacy is your friend. I said that currently Turn Undead is not working properly due to the mob hit die being so inflated, and even if it was changed to work well in the confines of DDO, we'd really need more Undead-centric content to let it shine. Right now, no sane Cleric will dump CON or WIS to make a Turning-focused build. The last time I saw one posted on the forums, back when we had a sane forums layout, it was torn apart and left for dead.



Divine Punishment, while powerful, is single target, and like every single target will drain a divine's pool rapidly if you try to use it on every mob in the place; it's a boss beater.

Also, CHA is minimized on a FvS because it does not affect DCs AT ALL. You don't see very many Cleric builds advocating a dumped Wisdom.



This shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Blade Barrier is an Evocation spell with a DC. The difference between your WIS-dumped WF FvS's Blade Barrier and that of an Evoker with max WIS is like comparing a Yugo to a Imperial. Both might get you where you're going, but one is a luxury car (before it was a K Car it was at least).

It will also hit more than once, VERY easily. You kite the mobs through it. Don't drop it and run through once and call it a day. Don't drop it and shield block. You have to kite. And no, Wings don't really help here, since those are straight line affairs, and to maximize the damage output you need to circle.

Sirgog calls it a "weak, but situationally useful" Blade Barrier for a reason on the Soul Survivor. Having capped both a caster and a hybrid melee divine, I'll say the same thing; Blade Barrier is no where near as powerful on a WIS-dumped character as a max-WIS one. You're literally talking half the damage most of the time, except on evasion mobs, where you're talking no damage. It's like Implosion, yes I kept it on my hybrid melee, and found use for it. It's night and day compared to a real Divine Caster though.



Your words:

I believe any real Divine would love having an additional feat slot opened by not absolutely requiring Quicken.

6 - Quicken as a Must-Have feat - Quicken is only must have for two reasons: One you are getting hit in epics and no one can meet those Concentration Checks due to the stacked game design, and Two Mass Heal. If you're not a hybrid melee divine, you only need it for the latter. If Mass Heal was changed to a shorter cast time, on par with other mass cures, then I believe we would see it dumped by many, if not most, caster Divines. Hybrid Melees like the Soul Survivor or my own FvS would still find it useful. But mine is likely to LR into an Evoker at 12, once I can actually play a Divine Caster, unlike the prior levels where I can melee with a high STR, or melee with a mediocre STR and limited CC via spells. I would dearly love getting an open feat slot, as I said before.

So quicken is not a must have feat? Even though it's absolutely required currently in your own words.

Right now no sane cleric will dump con or wis for charisma because even with max charisma turning is useless at end game.
Personally I've always felt turn undead should be will {wisdom} based anyway - Making charisma unneeded on a cleric would free up str and con for melee builds.
I mentioned charisma because it counts as an FS's spell point pool - The main focus was on wisdom for DCs

Yes BB does have a DC but it's one that currently doesn't mean all that much - just takes longer to kite stuff through over and over again.
Also there are plenty of mobs who simply refuse to be kited - If BB did damage every time the blades went round {which it should} then currently it would be OP - If it was changed so that mobs saved on everything but a 1 vs wis dumped casters then I could see this being viable for the devs to allow.
I'd go as far as to say though that it should require virtually maxed wisdom at level to stop mobs from saving 80-90% of the time otherwise BB would still be OP.

You obviously like your offensive caster FavSouls and I have nothing against this build - My problem is with WF Melee FavSouls being able to use the two strongest spells in a divine's arsenal with virtually no penalty.

FavSouls and Clerics have 3 choices - Heal, Melee and Caster DPS - To allow WF Souls to get all 3 of these with such ease is not in my mind fair in the least.

I said in my previous post to leave DP as is because as you've said it is a single target boss beater - Blade Barrier however is a different story entirely.

I think the main thing I'm trying to say here is that in D&D Clerics have always been able to stand toe to toe with the fighters in melee - In DDO because AC is borked this is so much harder to do - I want to see Warpriest of course but am worried that Radiant will always be the #1 choice unless Warpriest and Exorcist are severely OP because Radiant is so good anyway.
For me Clerics should be the ones standing toe to toe with the Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Paladins etc. in melee combat burst healing.
FavSouls with their Sorc like Spell Points are much more suited to caster DPS and back up healing thematically.

Unfortunately this game has gone the other way though and basically given FavSouls all the advantages - Radiant Burst and Aura allow a cleric to go into melee combat but without the possibility of getting a viable AC and with the massive damage mobs can put out coupled with FS DR this is only truly viable with a monk splash.

But I'm getting off the point - This is going to be my last post in this thread but suffice to say:

Don't throw the baby {cleric} out with the bathwater {favsoul} please.

If FavSoul requires nerfing {Wings weren't OP} which I believe it does then please don't nerf the Cleric alongside it.

Look at DR not Quicken.

KillEveryone
02-03-2012, 07:30 PM
/not signed. This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've seen on these forums in a while.

^^^^^^^^^

HungarianRhapsody
02-03-2012, 07:38 PM
You obviously like your offensive caster FavSouls and I have nothing against this build - My problem is with WF Melee FavSouls being able to use the two strongest spells in a divine's arsenal with virtually no penalty.

A Favored Soul's DCs should have absolutely nothing to do with the two most powerful spells in a divine's arsenal because no player will want to save against either of those two spells when they are cast by another player.

The two most powerful spells in a divine caster's arsenal: Heal and Mass Heal.

That's absolutely NOT saying that every divine caster should just be a nannybot, but if you are saying that DP and BB are the two strongest spells in a Cleric or FvS's spell list, you're wildly mistaken. Very few quests or raids have a required amount of DPS that is needed for the quest. If your enemy doesn't heal themselves (and most enemies don't), you can have very poor DPS and still succeed as long as you can keep yourself from dying while you slowly whittle down your enemy's health. Heal and Mass Heal are the two most efficient and effective ways to do that.

That's why builds like the Soul Survivor are so effective. Because the modest DPS that they actually have is still enough to take care of business due to the character's outstanding ability to survive.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 07:49 PM
So you're perfectly ok with divine casters popping 400+ plat per heal on you (scrolls), but refuse to even consider doing the same for yourself?

Now if you argue that the SF pot penalties need to go, agreed. Even move the lessers to 150 favor, and God knows they should actually stack in the inventory. Insisting others should foot the bill to heal you and you should never have to pay anything yourself is rather selfish, and I'd just let you die and let someone else tank.

I drink them all the time. The point was that a favored soul could still tank bosses by drinking pots - I'm fine with that.

taurean430
02-03-2012, 08:45 PM
This has to be the worst idea in the string of caster-melee balance threads ever.

Quicken isn't the problem. Take this away, and all you've done is kill tank-casters. Casters will still be kings. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but the highest ranked guild on my server is almost entirely caster-players, yet NOT ONE of them has a shield-tanking caster. Why? Because they think it's too slow. They could do the same stuff on a Savant or DC-specced PM much much faster (their words). These guys are very veteran, and some have been playing since the game launched. So no quicken for them would be a pain, but they try to not get hit as much as possible anyways. They'd survive, they'd still smash content. All this would do is incredibly annoy all casters, screw over healers, and kill caster-tanks.

This whole thing about caster-tanks really has me confused. Yes, it's a good strategy. But, as mentioned before, I know a lot of AMAZING caster players who do not like it. Why hate on it? It's just one of the many strategies we could employ, and it's not necessary to beat the game, nor does it trivialize the game any more than a hefty dose of player skill already does.

The melee-caster balance isn't dependent on quicken or caster-tanking. Those are not the root of the problem. The problems are ranged-killing, AoEs, and self healing, with the first two being the most significant. Casters can fight from a distance, and they can kill multiple mobs at once. That alone makes them so much more powerful than melees in trash mob situations, especially at epic, because they're not dealing with just one mob at a time and it means they have MUCH less incoming damage. Give a melee those capabilities, and I think you'd find that the self-healing a melee can get access to (helf divine dilly, UMD, SF pots, etc) is more than enough.

As for tanking bosses...who cares? If the caster is built to tank, then shouldn't they be able to tank? I mean, what do you people want? Cookie cutter casters? The strength of DDO is the customization you have in building toons. Being able to make caster-tanks is a part of that. Trying to take that away makes me wonder what your objective is. Force casters into specific roles? You want your healers to just be healers? Your casters to just be CC buff-bots who never get their hands dirty? Sure, they won't be relegated to those roles by losing quicken, they'll still be the best, and the cries for nerf will still roll in. Eventually, if you nerf enough, casters will be eunuchs, like in the pre U-9 days, where a group NEVER let in more than 1 caster in tough content. Casters are in a good place right now in terms of playability/viability. It's melees that aren't in a good place.

The only problems I see between casters and melees is melees can't handle groups of end-game mobs on their own, and dps vs bosses is a bit skewed by the fact that AC and Fortification (the main forms of boss damage mitigation) have no bearing on casters. Buff melees to better handle mobs, make sure Raid bosses don't have crazy ACs (on Malicia it's fine, but put that on LoB, for example, and you'd have a problem), and make Fortification work on spell crits AND weapon crits. You'd see the playing field largely leveled. Add on better self-healing for melees, and they might even be equals at that point.

PS My apologies. I did do a little editing after a response.

Going to have to go with this response as well. +1 to ya. Mobs having no defense versus my casting classes offense save spell resistance is problematic. Any of my casting types with the exception of my cleric can beat that though multiple tr's. And the only reason my cleric can't right now is that it's too painful for me to level him through multi tr's. Giving Red/Purple/Orange named bosses more defenses against dot or no save spells would balance things out much better than what's been previously suggested insofar. It also wouldn't nerf my developing ac tanking pally, my rangers on another server, or any of my bards.

The punitive backlash and outright hate in some cases demonstrated on these forums by melee only players needs to stop. Update after update steps are taken to ensure melee end game viability. The progress is slow, yet it's there. I read thread after thread filled with lousy ideas intended to nerf non melee classes into the stone age of gaming. Divines only heal, arcanes only buff, my melee only kills everything with the support of other players. It's blatenly obvious that this was not the way Dungeons and Dragons approaches casting classes. In fact, if things were more true to the rule set DDO is based off of, your beloved hjealers and buffers would have much better tools for offense and mass destruction than any melee anywhere.

A multitude of checks have been put into place in the platform of this game. Much of that involves denying casting classes feats, spells, domain based abilities, and specials to force group cooperation. There is in fact no need to add to that laundry list of nerfs in place before you even roll up a casting class of any type.

HungarianRhapsody
02-03-2012, 08:51 PM
Now if you argue that the SF pot penalties need to go, agreed. Even move the lessers to 150 favor, and God knows they should actually stack in the inventory. Insisting others should foot the bill to heal you and you should never have to pay anything yourself is rather selfish, and I'd just let you die and let someone else tank.

I like the idea of providing the existing Silver Flame pots at 150 SF favor and offering regular Heal pots at an even higher plat price at 400 favor.

And cure critical pots at the regular vendors for an appropriate price.

Juggle
02-03-2012, 08:58 PM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.

/not signed

The POINT of the quicken spell is to void any concentration checks. Otherwise no one would take it. Quicken is also quite necessary in many cases, especially on the healers' case when keeping other players alive during quests. I tend to laugh at posts now that really want the game to be unnecessarily challenging, you want a challenge? Ok, turn quicken off next time ;)

tyga250
02-03-2012, 09:19 PM
/not signed.

possibly the worst balance suggestion in the past few weeks. The answer isn't nerfing; the answer is buffing other classes up to par.

Luis_Velderve
02-03-2012, 09:38 PM
It will punish people who want to sit behind a shield and outpower the encounters with dots.
When an epic boss and 16 of his minions can't outdps my DR and selfhealing, I think the game is broken. I can see normal being that easy to outpower, and hard being possible. Epic is supposed to be epic.


Well then your problem is not quicken. Your problems is DR and the fact that anyone can use Tower Shield without the proficiency having the benefit and not suffering the drawbacks (if you are not attacking no problem).

A solution may be to implement the Combat Expertise sp escalation mechanic for those without Tower Proficiency. Not the first time someone points to the ¨I have Shield Mastery but not Tower Shield Proficiency and my DR is insane; nerf me¨

CrankVulcan
02-03-2012, 10:45 PM
/not signed. This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've seen on these forums in a while.

This.

I think that this game is just so easy for anyone with decent gear. The difference between a first life and a 3rd life is so dramatic. I would bet that the OP's FvS was using a HoX shield, a torc, a GS hp item, and a Conc ops. I'd also bet that he's either a dump wisdom build with 4500hp or an evocation build with a wizard/sorc past life and 3500hp.

Sure the OP can do it. But what happens to all the casual players on their first life. They might not have an uber shield and infinite mana regen combined with healing amp gear.

This is a difficult subject because I believe that a character with so much time invested, should of course be stronger. The part that confuses me is this: The OP likely grinds gear for hours a day/week like a lot of us do. He most likely has TR'd a character at least once. He also probably DID TAKE QUICKEN.

Yet after all this character building, gear grinding, PL acquiring, and quicken choosing, he whines about being overpowered.

Kmnh
02-03-2012, 11:20 PM
This.

I think that this game is just so easy for anyone with decent gear. The difference between a first life and a 3rd life is so dramatic. I would bet that the OP's FvS was using a HoX shield, a torc, a GS hp item, and a Conc ops. I'd also bet that he's either a dump wisdom build with 4500hp or an evocation build with a wizard/sorc past life and 3500hp.

Sure the OP can do it. But what happens to all the casual players on their first life. They might not have an uber shield and infinite mana regen combined with healing amp gear.

This is a difficult subject because I believe that a character with so much time invested, should of course be stronger. The part that confuses me is this: The OP likely grinds gear for hours a day/week like a lot of us do. He most likely has TR'd a character at least once. He also probably DID TAKE QUICKEN.

Yet after all this character building, gear grinding, PL acquiring, and quicken choosing, he whines about being overpowered.

Actually, my favored soul is a first lifer . I got my 20th dq and torc a month ago. What's so special about HoX shields? They have a crazy high droprate, I see one on every run, sometimes two of them.

CrankVulcan
02-03-2012, 11:53 PM
Actually, my favored soul is a first lifer.
Hmmm well then I apologize. Perhaps you are an above average player.



I got my 20th dq and torc a month ago.
Grats.



What's so special about HoX shields? They have a crazy high droprate, I see one on every run, sometimes two of them.

Do you use one? If so then you know exactly what is so special about them. If not then I can explain the mechanics of shield blocking DR to you.




My point is that removing/nerfing quicken will affect the more casual players and the under-geared to a point that will be unfair. New players complain enough already that high level raids are too difficult even on normal.


If the quicken feat is making the game to easy for you, quite zerging and start healing. Believe me, that is far more challenging and I can guarantee very few will "grief" over it.

dodger72
02-04-2012, 02:15 AM
Here we have the top 5

1) Remove the "no concentration checks" property from the Quicken Spell feat

2) Cat guided missiles

3) Pet Rock

4) Rice Paper Umbrella

5) Ford Pinto

I disagree....I liked my Ford Pinto.

Luis_Velderve
02-04-2012, 08:09 AM
I disagree....I liked my Ford Pinto.

Yes I like a KABOOM once in a while. Running a Pinto carb in my raider and the model is present in my mind. XD

Angelus_dead
02-04-2012, 08:11 AM
Specifically, you said that not using Quicken is kin to driving 20mph on a 40mph street if you feel the speed limit is too high.
No, I absolutely did not make that statement, or any statement that could be reasonably misinterpreted that way. Your accusations are baseless and bizarre.

HungarianRhapsody
02-04-2012, 08:45 AM
Actually, my favored soul is a first lifer . I got my 20th dq and torc a month ago. What's so special about HoX shields? They have a crazy high droprate, I see one on every run, sometimes two of them.

The difference between a first life character and a second or later life character that already has all of their build-specific gear is that the second or later life character can use all of that gear while leveling. Most quests are not particularly hard on a first life character with moderately decent gear that can be bought or crafted, but they're downright trivial with appropriate raid gear.


There is very little difference between a 20th level first life character that has been sitting at 20 for three months and has the exact same gear as a second or third life capped character with the same gear.

There is an enormous difference between a first life level 13 FvS with a +5 steel tower shield and a +5 Cha helm of Spot +3 and a +4 Con necklace of Protection +1 vs. a level 13 second life FvS with a MinII helm of +45 HP and a Torc.

ArcaneMelee
02-04-2012, 09:38 AM
Actually, my favored soul is a first lifer . I got my 20th dq and torc a month ago. What's so special about HoX shields? They have a crazy high droprate, I see one on every run, sometimes two of them.

The difference between a first life character and a second or later life character that already has all of their build-specific gear is that the second or later life character can use all of that gear while leveling. Most quests are not particularly hard on a first life character with moderately decent gear that can be bought or crafted, but they're downright trivial with appropriate raid gear.


There is very little difference between a 20th level first life character that has been sitting at 20 for three months and has the exact same gear as a second or third life capped character with the same gear.

There is an enormous difference between a first life level 13 FvS with a +5 steel tower shield and a +5 Cha helm of Spot +3 and a +4 Con necklace of Protection +1 vs. a level 13 second life FvS with a MinII helm of +45 HP and a Torc.

This is what I was going to say, but you beat me to it.


...
Yet after all this character building, gear grinding, PL acquiring, and quicken choosing, he whines about being overpowered.

Yeah, I've noticed that calls for nerf are more frequent from those who have already acquired their gear, and are now looking for a "challenge".

voodoogroves
02-04-2012, 09:55 AM
This is what I was going to say, but you beat me to it.



Yeah, I've noticed that calls for nerf are more frequent from those who have already acquired their gear, and are now looking for a "challenge".

Quicken isn't the issue on this example either.

It's Shield Mastery (front loaded feat) + good shield + super easy to get Sup 5 clickies and now far more readily available arcane lore.

- Caster damage needs to be not as easy to scale - first AP is 20%, additional are 5% ... linear scaling is better
- Shield Mastery needs to not be as front loaded and have some other mechanics to it where one feat doesn't give you such a massively huge benefit.

I wouldn't be against scaling back the output on Potency and clickies a bit. Eardweller isn't a gimme, but Sup X 5 is kinda trivial to score for the 75% boost.

ArcaneMelee
02-04-2012, 10:20 AM
...
Random Aggro FTW! I always laugh when people think that just because you play a nannybot, or stay in the back, you never draw aggro or take damage.
...

For the majority of the game, staying back out of the action does indeed minimize the damage that one takes. Removing the safety net of Quicken will encourage more of that, not less.

mobrien316
02-04-2012, 12:55 PM
Yeah, I've noticed that calls for nerf are more frequent from those who have already acquired their gear, and are now looking for a "challenge".

I have noticed that, too.


That's why I am an advocate of uber-geared, optimally built characters taking off a few pieces of their epic gear or TR'ing into a less optimal build rather than asking Turbine to change the game because they find it too easy.

If 28-point builds with no gear are blowing through epics solo with no pot usage and no ship buffs, then they can argue the game is maybe too easy.

When 36-point veterans with dozens of items of epic twink gear and unlimited funds to buy pots and scrolls claim the game is too easy, I have little sympathy. It is VERY easy for them to change their game without affecting anyone else in DDO. It is simply unfair to expect Turbine to change the entire game for everyone so that the people claiming it is too easy on their uber-awesome characters can have a tiny bit more challenge.

azrael4h
02-04-2012, 01:26 PM
For the majority of the game, staying back out of the action does indeed minimize the damage that one takes. Removing the safety net of Quicken will encourage more of that, not less.

I tried that once. I took a fireball to the face. Afterwards, I quit being a nanny bot, and became a divine engine of destruction and devastation. I also saved a bunch of money by not switching my horse insurance to Geico.

walkingwolfmike
02-04-2012, 02:20 PM
* slaps OP with a dead fish *

/not signed

~Quilny
02-04-2012, 07:43 PM
I was running Rushmore's on my favored soul, with 2 guildies. I wanted to mess with them a bit, so I ran past everything and zerged to the boss with red alert up. I tanked the bosses and the pile of trash that came with me while my friends complained about the alert, and stopped at 3 stars because my guildie sold all our time to the foreman :o

It was cheaper and easier for me than the runs where I was actually clearing trash and healing.

This is terrible gameplay. It actively encourages griefing. It should not be this easy to keep damage spells and self-healing going when there are 16 mobs hitting me.


I want to see a video of you doing this. Even if what you say is true sir doesnt mean you cannot do it without quicken.

Souless
02-04-2012, 07:57 PM
No.
It's you people who have an irrational fear of nerfs that sounds like a bunch of babies that don't want their toys taken away.

By definition a nerf is a game change that reduces the effectiveness of said item/ability/feat...thus reducing the playability of the said object that was nerfed.

It is the ppl calling for the nerf based some "overpowered" concept..when often it is simply tactics that work well.

More often than not, when enough of u yell for nerf's the devs do so...to the point of reducing a viable tactic to either uselessness or near uselessness....I offer up yet another example.....deadly weapons...ppl scream "overpowered" when in fact the spell is not. So the devs r gonna nerf it to uselessness if what I hear they r turning it into is going to happen.

That is why I wish ppl like u would stop calling for the "nerf-bat" every time something just works well. I am unafraid of change....I have been creating new tatctics since the first nerf of HV was introduced....

I am just weary of creating new tactics for likes of U....and all the other ppl screaming "overpowered" simply to be heard by the devs.

Give us new quests and additional challenges....Don't nerf exsisting tactics.

As I said before quicken isn't overpowered, just not being used like the op wants us to use it.

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Spectyr/Tazzor/Xindao/Vampir/valice/Ruchgirl

Riggs
02-04-2012, 08:34 PM
Why is this thread still going?

Once upon a time you could have some kind of spell casting without Quicken. A high enough Concentration and you could mostly still get spells off except for crits or occasional massive damage.

At some point massive damage, and multiple sources of ranged constant damage became the norm. There is far too much damage in DDO for a concentration check to be of any use in emergency situations even if you had 100 skill.

It is not possible now to properly play anything that casts spells in combat - and most quests involve combat fyi - without Quicken. By properly I mean not letting people die as a healer, failing numerous arcane spells - which means failed cc, failed kills, failed damage - etc. Raids would fail constantly without Quicken - and watching the few noob caster/clerics that still do not have it die or fail to heal people etc is only ongoing proof of that simple fact.

Whoever thought this is a good idea does not play DDO. Or is so utterly bored of the game that their fondest wish is to see massive raid failures all over the game to spice up their dreary game experience.

Considering the OP states they started griefing guildmates out of boredom - the intent of the idea seems about as clear as can be.

So why are people debating this with an acknowledged griefer - who is now probably just stirring up debate on a stupid issue out of more boredom?

Aaxeyu
02-04-2012, 08:52 PM
By definition a nerf is a game change that reduces the effectiveness of said item/ability/feat...thus reducing the playability of the said object that was nerfed.

Reducing effectiveness of something does not necessarily mean that the playability of that thing is reduced.


It is the ppl calling for the nerf based some "overpowered" concept..when often it is simply tactics that work well.

Most of the time it is things that works too well that people want nerfed.






As I said before quicken isn't overpowered, just not being used like the op wants us to use it.

Quicken is overpowered. Just look at how many people in this thread claims that they (or someone else) will become unable to complete raids if they nerf quicken.
If a single feat can make or break raid completions then that is not a well designed feat.

mobrien316
02-04-2012, 10:55 PM
[QUOTE=Souless;4297164]If a single feat can make or break raid completions then that is not a well designed feat.

Can you back that up? Because I can think of a feature immediately that will make or break a raid or a quest and I don't know anyone who thinks it is overpowered.

Everyone needs heavy fortification. If you run high level content without it you are very likely to suffer regular, frequent deaths. Is heavy fortification overpowered? Everyone needs it. If no one in a high level raid has it the raid will surely fail.


I would think Quicken is simply a necessity for higher levels. That doesn't make it overpowered. That means that instead of having a kobold attacking your 3rd level wizard (which he can probably concentrate and ignore), high level casters now have devils and demons and beholders and elementals attacking them, which requires concentration and an advanced feat of learning to enable them to cast before an attacker can distract them.


That's D&D. It's not overpowered.

Combat_Wombat
02-05-2012, 12:42 AM
Why is this thread still going?

Once upon a time you could have some kind of spell casting without Quicken. A high enough Concentration and you could mostly still get spells off except for crits or occasional massive damage.

At some point massive damage, and multiple sources of ranged constant damage became the norm. There is far too much damage in DDO for a concentration check to be of any use in emergency situations even if you had 100 skill.

It is not possible now to properly play anything that casts spells in combat - and most quests involve combat fyi - without Quicken. By properly I mean not letting people die as a healer, failing numerous arcane spells - which means failed cc, failed kills, failed damage - etc. Raids would fail constantly without Quicken - and watching the few noob caster/clerics that still do not have it die or fail to heal people etc is only ongoing proof of that simple fact.

Whoever thought this is a good idea does not play DDO. Or is so utterly bored of the game that their fondest wish is to see massive raid failures all over the game to spice up their dreary game experience.

Considering the OP states they started griefing guildmates out of boredom - the intent of the idea seems about as clear as can be.

So why are people debating this with an acknowledged griefer - who is now probably just stirring up debate on a stupid issue out of more boredom?

I have healed evon6, edq2, tod, shroud, hox, vod, reavers fate(lol), all without quicken on my original cleric build that was my first toon to 20 even did my first solo heal tod without it and only had 360 hp too and we didn't have ship buffs or radiant servant either :O I must be some kind of super man! I think you need to stop throwing around baseless lies and generalizations about how the game works.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 06:10 AM
Can you back that up? Because I can think of a feature immediately that will make or break a raid or a quest and I don't know anyone who thinks it is overpowered.

Everyone needs heavy fortification. If you run high level content without it you are very likely to suffer regular, frequent deaths. Is heavy fortification overpowered? Everyone needs it. If no one in a high level raid has it the raid will surely fail.


I would think Quicken is simply a necessity for higher levels. That doesn't make it overpowered. That means that instead of having a kobold attacking your 3rd level wizard (which he can probably concentrate and ignore), high level casters now have devils and demons and beholders and elementals attacking them, which requires concentration and an advanced feat of learning to enable them to cast before an attacker can distract them.


That's D&D. It's not overpowered.

If everyone have quicken, then why have the concentration & interuption system in the first place?

If not taking quicken makes you unable to complete raids then it is overpowered because it's so much better than every other feat. A single feat should not make or break a character.
D&D is about choices, if quicken is a necessity, what choice do you have?

Angelus_dead
02-05-2012, 06:21 AM
Can you back that up? Because I can think of a feature immediately that will make or break a raid or a quest and I don't know anyone who thinks it is overpowered.

Everyone needs heavy fortification. If you run high level content without it you are very likely to suffer regular, frequent deaths. Is heavy fortification overpowered? Everyone needs it. If no one in a high level raid has it the raid will surely fail.
Yes, Heavy Fortification absolutely is overpowered. If you haven't seen the people complaining about that, you haven't been paying attention.

voodoogroves
02-05-2012, 07:10 AM
If everyone have quicken, then why have the concentration & interuption system in the first place?

Don't forget the damage scale in DDO is way off the chart that concentration was meant to handle.

As much as folks complain, DDO also does not give you the many many ways to boost your skill checks like PNP does either; we are somewhat limited.

I'm ok with Quicken being relegated to "fast cast" if there is also some sort of way I can build to "reliably cast" ... and by that I mean through the game mechanics of the character. Someone may think evasion is useless if you're good at the keyboard - that's great, but part of D&D has always been to play things with skills that are not like your own. I'm a fan of keyboard skills being in the game, but if the game is turned completely into an arcade/FPS with D&D flavor, it's no longer D&D.

Changing things for the better is good - but don't do it by eliminating build options. Make it a choice.

I seem to be saying that a lot lately.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 07:48 AM
Don't forget the damage scale in DDO is way off the chart that concentration was meant to handle.

As much as folks complain, DDO also does not give you the many many ways to boost your skill checks like PNP does either; we are somewhat limited.

I'm ok with Quicken being relegated to "fast cast" if there is also some sort of way I can build to "reliably cast" ... and by that I mean through the game mechanics of the character. Someone may think evasion is useless if you're good at the keyboard - that's great, but part of D&D has always been to play things with skills that are not like your own. I'm a fan of keyboard skills being in the game, but if the game is turned completely into an arcade/FPS with D&D flavor, it's no longer D&D.

Adding more ways to increase concentration is very easy.


Changing things for the better is good - but don't do it by eliminating build options. Make it a choice.

I seem to be saying that a lot lately.

How is making a feat, that is considered a necessity, optional eliminating build options?
No one is asking to remove quicken from the game.

voodoogroves
02-05-2012, 07:52 AM
Adding more ways to increase concentration is very easy.

Or scale the check.

I'd like the "death from massive damage" rule too, but the check would have to be scaled.



How is making a feat, that is considered a necessity, optional eliminating build options?
No one is asking to remove quicken from the game.
Wasn't directed at you specifically, but in a more general sense ...

If someone wants to build a caster who can take the hits and keep casting, I'd love for them to have that option. It may come at some cost, and that's ok ... but I'd like it to be something you CAN build for ... and I mean BUILD for not "keyboard" for. Today, it's binary the other way - really easy to be able to take any hit - I don't want that, nor do I want the answer to it "duh just jump around and use WASD". WASD isn't a build option.

Making it so you can't "build" to take hits and instead the only option is a particular keyboard skill set isn't the answer I want either.

EDIT: And because you didn't probably read the above, I'd be ok splitting "fast casting" into quicken and another feat for "cast while being hit" maybe as an enhancement to Combat Casting. I'm totally fine with that method.

EDIT EDIT: I don't think we are in disagreement, either, just caught on some fine details in each other's posts and stuck there.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 08:37 AM
Or scale the check.

I'd like the "death from massive damage" rule too, but the check would have to be scaled.



Wasn't directed at you specifically, but in a more general sense ...

If someone wants to build a caster who can take the hits and keep casting, I'd love for them to have that option. It may come at some cost, and that's ok ... but I'd like it to be something you CAN build for ... and I mean BUILD for not "keyboard" for. Today, it's binary the other way - really easy to be able to take any hit - I don't want that, nor do I want the answer to it "duh just jump around and use WASD". WASD isn't a build option.

Making it so you can't "build" to take hits and instead the only option is a particular keyboard skill set isn't the answer I want either.

EDIT: And because you didn't probably read the above, I'd be ok splitting "fast casting" into quicken and another feat for "cast while being hit" maybe as an enhancement to Combat Casting. I'm totally fine with that method.

EDIT EDIT: I don't think we are in disagreement, either, just caught on some fine details in each other's posts and stuck there.

I don't think it should be possible to completely ignore the concentration & interuption mechanics, atleast not without big drawbacks. Concentration should be important for casters. Right now it is useless. Infact, even if they made quicken useless it would be worht it in terms of options, because all the feats that boosts concentration would become useful.
However, it is easy to nerf quicken without making it useless.

voodoogroves
02-05-2012, 08:48 AM
I don't think it should be possible to completely ignore the concentration & interuption mechanics. Concentration should be important for casters. Right now it is useless. Infact, even if they made quicken useless it would be worht it in terms of options, because all the feats that boosts concentration would become useful.
However, it is easy to nerf quicken without making it useless.

Scale the check for one ... Damage and hp in ddo are not in the range considered by the pnp rules.

Ddo also doesn't have a "cast on the defensive" option, so we need to be reasonable.

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 09:43 AM
I don't think it should be possible to completely ignore the concentration & interuption mechanics, atleast not without big drawbacks.


In don't know if you somehow missed it, but there are big drawbacks to using Quicken.

1) It costs a feat. Even on a human Wizard 20, there are still more worthwhile feats than available feat slots.

2) It costs a significant number of extra spell points. If you turn quicken on for every spell (i.e. if you completely ignore concentration and interruption mechanics), you'll end up running out of spell points on any blue bar. Even people who use quicken "all the time" only actually use it on a very few spells all the time and run with most of their spells unquickened AND they use scrolls (which can't be quickened) to suppliment their own blue bar both inside and outside of combat.

TL;DR version: no one completely ignores concentration and interruption mechanics and the people who do get to ignore those mechanics sometimes pay a significant cost for that benefit.

Teharahma
02-05-2012, 09:47 AM
The issue is not "it's overpower". It's not. As morticianjohn pointed out, it won't change how you play the game if you are being nice.

It encourages griefing. Letting people die under red alert is cheaper, easier and more efficient than playing as a party.

Don't play with ******bags then, problem solved.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 09:47 AM
In don't know if you somehow missed it, but there are big drawbacks to using Quicken.

We could argue what constitutes a "big drawback" all day. But I'm not gonna go there.

mobrien316
02-05-2012, 09:51 AM
If everyone have quicken, then why have the concentration & interuption system in the first place?

If not taking quicken makes you unable to complete raids then it is overpowered because it's so much better than every other feat. A single feat should not make or break a character.
D&D is about choices, if quicken is a necessity, what choice do you have?

I disagree.

In D&D, as players gain levels they should get higher level items so they can effectively fight higher level monsters. If a level 15 fighter wants to attack CR15 monsters with his masterwork longsword, he CAN, but he should not.

That doesn't mean that all high level gear is overpowered. It is part of the progression that makes D&D an enjoyable game.

At higher levels you need better gear, better feats, and better skills to survive against the higher level monsters. That does not mean that all high level stuff is overpowered.

No one needs a deathblock item at level one, but most experienced players get a deathblock item for later levels. Does that mean deathblock items are overpowered?

The idea that if you "need" something then you have no choice is faulty. You only need, for example, a deathblock item if you don't want instakill spells or vorpal effects causing your death. You don't "need" it to do any particular quest; if you have a friendly cleric along who doesn't mind raising you again and again, you can do without and just die a lot. Similarly, you don't "need" Quicken; you can run any quest in the game without it. Maybe you won't get a spell interrupted by incoming damage.

If a lot of experienced players take a particular feat, or use a particular piece of gear, that does not mean that feat or gear is overpowered.



Edited to add: Really? Negative rep for this? What part of this post "Inflammatory, Derogatory, Disruptive, Trolling, or violates community guidelines"?

Algulcz
02-05-2012, 09:53 AM
... Concentration should be important for casters. Right now it is useless...

Concentration is not useless, scrolls can't be quickened. Heal skill is useless, concentration is handy.

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 09:55 AM
Don't play with ******bags then, problem solved.

I don't know if it's going to be possible for the OP to stop playing with griefers since he's the one who was griefing his own party according to the first post in the thread.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 10:23 AM
I disagree.

In D&D, as players gain levels they should get higher level items so they can effectively fight higher level monsters. If a level 15 fighter wants to attack CR15 monsters with his masterwork longsword, he CAN, but he should not.

That doesn't mean that all high level gear is overpowered. It is part of the progression that makes D&D an enjoyable game.

At higher levels you need better gear, better feats, and better skills to survive against the higher level monsters. That does not mean that all high level stuff is overpowered.

Gear progression is completely different. Quicken is not "higher level" than other feats.

A proper analogy with gear would be that if among lots and lots of level 20 items that all require the same effort to get there is one that is essential to take and is much better than any of the other items, then that item would be overpowred.




No one needs a deathblock item at level one, but most experienced players get a deathblock item for later levels. Does that mean deathblock items are overpowered?

Deathblock is not essential. It doesn't make or break your character, so no it is not overpowered. (although I'm sure some people think that it is).


The idea that if you "need" something then you have no choice is faulty. You only need, for example, a deathblock item if you don't want instakill spells or vorpal effects causing your death. You don't "need" it to do any particular quest; if you have a friendly cleric along who doesn't mind raising you again and again, you can do without and just die a lot. Similarly, you don't "need" Quicken; you can run any quest in the game without it. Maybe you won't get a spell interrupted by incoming damage.

The premise was that quicken was essential.

Also, if one one option is far superior to the others then you don't really have a choice. At least not an interesting and fun choice that adds anything of value to the game.


If a lot of experienced players take a particular feat, or use a particular piece of gear, that does not mean that feat or gear is overpowered.

Indeed it doesn't. But it can be a good indication.
However, the reason I think quicken is overpowered and should be changed is not because many people take it, it's because of the difference between a character with quicken and a character without can be too great, and that the feat practically nullifies the value of concentration and the assorted feats.

Nerfing quicken would do alot to balance casters vs melee.

bloodnose13
02-05-2012, 12:46 PM
imagine griefing when there would be failed raids becouse healer got hit and was failing concentration check.

problem is not in no fail casting but in possibility to spam spells, if there was a universal cooldown that would make you cast only every 3 seconds it would efectively kill all spamming and thus make what was in OP impossible or less possible.

if i remember right pnp allows only one spell per round (6 seconds)? not sure if i rmember right so correct me if im wrong

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 01:10 PM
imagine griefing when there would be failed raids becouse healer got hit and was failing concentration check.

problem is not in no fail casting but in possibility to spam spells, if there was a universal cooldown that would make you cast only every 3 seconds it would efectively kill all spamming and thus make what was in OP impossible or less possible.

if i remember right pnp allows only one spell per round (6 seconds)? not sure if i rmember right so correct me if im wrong

There are some circumstances that would allow you to cast two spells in a single round, but it certainly isn't common.

On the other hand, there are not nearly as many opportunities for casters to be interrupted in PnP and the difficulty checks required for concentration are also much easier to achieve because of the vastly lower amounts of damage taken in PnP.

Souless
02-05-2012, 03:08 PM
Reducing effectiveness of something does not necessarily mean that the playability of that thing is reduced.

Reduction in effectiveness = decreased playability....


Most of the time it is things that works too well that people want nerfed.

Most of the time ppl u included, give a kneejerk reaction to something...then yell loud enough so as to make it true. YOUR perception is that it is overpowered, therefore U must be right.




Quicken is overpowered. Just look at how many people in this thread claims that they (or someone else) will become unable to complete raids if they nerf quicken.
If a single feat can make or break raid completions then that is not a well designed feat.

Saying something is necessary doesn't mean it needs a nerf. I could say that having 500 HP's is necessary, do we need to nerf everyone's HP's?

The reason that raids would fail without quicken has more to do with casting speed than concentration. The rate that incoming damage would far outpace cooldown timers and casting speed. Couple that with a concentration check that will need to be made over the 2-3 seconds of casting time and what u get is a failed raid. Period. On my sorc's, I don't use quicken and have no trouble casting spells...so what does that tell u? Casting speed, not concentration is the issue.

So please think before u lable...

The Bytcher~


Souless Bladwind - Xbow Twinkwind - Spectyr - Xindao Bladewind - Tazzor Spellfire - Vampir Nightblade - Valice Icewind - Richgirl Goldenblade
Ascent

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 03:14 PM
The premise was that quicken was essential.

Also, if one one option is far superior to the others then you don't really have a choice. At least not an interesting and fun choice that adds anything of value to the game.

AoE healing spells (your choice of Mass Cure or Mass Heal) is absolutely essential for every raid to the point where I don't think there are any raids that could succeed without some kind of multi-target/AoE healing spell.

I guess that means we should eliminate all multi-target healing spells from the game because they're overpowered.

Angelus_dead
02-05-2012, 03:36 PM
AoE healing spells (your choice of Mass Cure or Mass Heal) is absolutely essential for every raid to the point where I don't think there are any raids that could succeed without some kind of multi-target/AoE healing spell.
That's not really correct, and high level raids do get done using mostly just single-target healing.

But that's an invalid example anyway, because for a Cleric or Favored Soul to learn a multi-target healing spell isn't a character build option like a feat is. It's a spell slot, and there aren't many spell choices at that level.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Reduction in effectiveness = decreased playability....

Then I'm not sure what you mean with playability.



Saying something is necessary doesn't mean it needs a nerf.

I agree. If you just would drop your preconceived idea of what I am saying and actually start to read...



I could say that having 500 HP's is necessary, do we need to nerf everyone's HP's?

Nope. That anaology doesn't follow at all.



The reason that raids would fail without quicken has more to do with casting speed than concentration. The rate that incoming damage would far outpace cooldown timers and casting speed. Couple that with a concentration check that will need to be made over the 2-3 seconds of casting time and what u get is a failed raid. Period. On my sorc's, I don't use quicken and have no trouble casting spells...so what does that tell u? Casting speed, not concentration is the issue.

It doesn't matter if it's the casting speed or concentration that is most important. As you said, it's the combination that makes it so powerful.
Casting speed alone makes the feat worth it. There is no reason that it should makes spells uninteruptable aswell.




So please think before u lable...

And please read before you make up your mind.

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 03:45 PM
That's not really correct, and high level raids do get done using mostly just single-target healing.

But that's an invalid example anyway, because for a Cleric or Favored Soul to learn a multi-target healing spell isn't a character build option like a feat is. It's a spell slot, and there aren't many spell choices at that level.

My Favored Soul doesn't have enough spell slots for all of the important spells that he would like to cast and he doesn't even bother with the spells (like Implosion) that have a saving throw. I really don't understand how you could say that there aren't many spell choices at "that level" (i.e. levels 5 through 9)

There are a couple of raids that can be done with *mostly* single target healing, but if something goes even slightly wrong (Sully/Horoth turns around, LoB throws a spell at a group of people after his jump, the person standing in front of the DQ gets knocked down, Voltron turns around in Colonscope, etc), there isn't enough time to get everyone in the party topped off with single target healing. Also, *every* raid has at least some trash to deal with. When a party deals with trash, you need some kind of multi-target healing.

For that matter, Heal itself is used at high levels more than all of the single-target Cure spells put together. Obviously Heal is overpowered and should be removed from the game.

Souless
02-05-2012, 04:15 PM
Then I'm not sure what you mean with playability.

playability: ease by which the game can be played, or the quantity or duration that a game can be played, in other words, the quality of gameplay.


I agree. If you just would drop your preconceived idea of what I am saying and actually start to read...

At least u agree with me. And right back at u....Only I would like u to do some thinking also.


Nope. That anaology doesn't follow at all.

Why not? Necessary does NOT mean overpowered.


It doesn't matter if it's the casting speed or concentration that is most important. As you said, it's the combination that makes it so powerful.
Casting speed alone makes the feat worth it. There is no reason that it should makes spells uninteruptable aswell.

Ok u have a point here. But it would require a complete revamp of how concentration checks currently work. This also was NEVER an issue before we had Warforged FvS's running around with massive DR AND Dots AND healing capabilities. Just as U say it's the combination that makes it powerful not quicken by itself. Which I would argue is a build type and a tactic and quicken is not in need of a nerf.



And please read before you make up your mind.

I am asking for the same courtesy.

The Bytcher~

Monkey_Archer
02-05-2012, 04:47 PM
Yes you are. You're asking for the "no concentration checks" to be eliminated because you believe it's overpowered based on your decidedly odd definition of overpowered.

I wouldn't call it odd... Defining overpowered as: "A single required ability or item that completely bypasses a game mechanic" I would say is valid. Its certainly not 'gamebreaking overpowered', but could be considered 'choicebreaking overpowered' (if that makes sense).

Heavy fort was a good comparison because it also completely bypassed a game mechanic (or at least it did previously before the introduction of fort reducing abilities). If all players and mobs were given heavy fort 1 year ago it would be 'choicebreaking overpowered' because it would have completely eliminated the game mechanic of crits (and the only choice would be to use bastard swords and greatswords). Turbine is currently addressing this by giving more and more mobs fort reducing capabilities...
Deathblock is another good example as well. Few mobs use instakill spells so its not as noticeably overpowered for players, but its very true in reverse when you try running a necro caster though the epic challenges or old epics. (of course necro casters being overpowered is another debate)

I guess the question is whether quicken actually falls under this definition. It certainly bypasses a game mechanic, but whether its required is still up for debate...

Personally, I don't consider quicken to be required, therefore I don't consider it to be overpowered. I think it should be nerfed because it would ADD to the game, not take away from it.
But im the guy who solos epics with a 320 hp human wizard while scroll healing myself (concentration checks and all)... so maybe my perspective is skewed...

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't call it odd... Defining overpowered as: "A single required ability or item that completely bypasses a game mechanic" I would say is valid. Its certainly not 'gamebreaking overpowered', but could be considered 'choicebreaking overpowered' (if that makes sense).

Heavy fort was a good comparison because it also completely bypassed a game mechanic (or at least it did previously before the introduction of fort reducing abilities). If all players and mobs were given heavy fort 1 year ago it would be 'choicebreaking overpowered' because it would have completely eliminated the game mechanic of crits (and the only choice would be to use bastard swords and greatswords). Turbine is currently addressing this by giving more and more mobs fort reducing capabilities...
Deathblock is another good example as well. Few mobs use instakill spells so its not as noticeably overpowered for players, but its very true in reverse when you try running a necro caster though the epic challenges or old epics. (of course necro casters being overpowered is another debate)

I guess the question is whether quicken actually falls under this definition. It certainly bypasses a game mechanic, but whether its required is still up for debate...

Personally, I don't consider quicken to be required, therefore I don't consider it to be overpowered. I think it should be nerfed because it would ADD to the game, not take away from it.
But im the guy who solos epics with a 320 hp human wizard while scroll healing myself (concentration checks and all)... so maybe my perspective is skewed...

Displacement/Blur completely bypass AC as a melee/ranged damage prevention mechanic. I don't believe either of these are overpowered.

Shroud blades before their recent powerup still bypassed AC/Saving Throw mechanics and I hope you aren't going to say that those wimpy blades that we used to face and now face again are overpowered.

Warforged and Underwater Action items bypass the entire breathing mechanic for swimming and I certainly don't think that anyone would call that overpowered.

It's entirely possible to build a character that takes even levels as Favored Soul and odd levels as Wizard and you can still complete quests and get to level 20. In a game that lets you complete quests with a terrible character like that, I don't think there's as much of a danger of "breaking" the game with "overpowered" options as many people imagine.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 05:08 PM
playability: ease by which the game can be played, or the quantity or duration that a game can be played, in other words, the quality of gameplay.

How can reducing the effectiveness of something necessarily mean that the game will be played less, or that the quality of the gameplay decreases?

You are being ridiculous.




Why not?

Because it completely misses the point.

Necessary does NOT mean overpowered.

How many time will I have to say that I agree before you understand it?

However, necessary CAN mean that it is overpowered and that the game would benefit from nerfing it, to open up much more options.



Ok u have a point here. But it would require a complete revamp of how concentration checks currently work.

No it wouldn't.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 05:13 PM
Displacement/Blur completely bypass AC as a melee/ranged damage prevention mechanic. I don't believe either of these are overpowered.

What? That doesn't even make any sense.


Shroud blades before their recent powerup still bypassed AC/Saving Throw mechanics and I hope you aren't going to say that those wimpy blades that we used to face and now face again are overpowered.

And enviormental effects that affects players are relevant how?


Warforged and Underwater Action items bypass the entire breathing mechanic for swimming and I certainly don't think that anyone would call that overpowered.

If swimming underwater with limited air was an integral part of the game, then I would call uwa items overpowered and would like to see them nerfed.
The game mechanics are there for a reason, other than to be bypassed.

voodoogroves
02-05-2012, 05:22 PM
The game mechanics are there for a reason, other than to be bypassed.

While I agree on some points, remember that D&D is at the core an exception-based game. It works like X ... and then there are an increasing number of options that let you ignore X. Don't use that as your basis.

Monkey_Archer
02-05-2012, 06:27 PM
Displacement/Blur completely bypass AC as a melee/ranged damage prevention mechanic. I don't believe either of these are overpowered.
100% displacement would be overpowered... 20-50% however does not bypass ac at all and it can be countered (true seeing)
If quicken only gave a 20-50% chance to automatically pass concentration or mobs had the ability to bypass quicken with a buff...



Shroud blades before their recent powerup still bypassed AC/Saving Throw mechanics and I hope you aren't going to say that those wimpy blades that we used to face and now face again are overpowered.
If all mobs in every quest had ac bypassing blades then yes that would be overpowered.



Warforged and Underwater Action items bypass the entire breathing mechanic for swimming and I certainly don't think that anyone would call that overpowered.

If all races had automatic UA like WF do then yes that would be overpowered (although quite irrelevant anyway)


The key point being that ALL casters can get quicken, it works 100% of the time and cannot be bypassed.

Kilarthia
02-05-2012, 06:37 PM
Remove the "No Concentration" check from quicken, AND modify concentration so that player roll modifiers will be in a reasonable range such that end game content does not make it auto fail. Buff Concentration.

HungarianRhapsody
02-05-2012, 06:45 PM
The key point being that ALL casters can get quicken, it works 100% of the time and cannot be bypassed.

I understand your argument here and I do think that you are making a rational argument, but I also think it's incorrect. Quicken does not work 100% of the time even though it seems to.

If you turn on Maximise and Empower for the appropriate spells at the appropriate times and you don't spell points like a half Orc on shore leave, then you'll be able to finish quests successfully and have some spell points left over at the end in case of emergencies. Life is good and people will say that you're overpowered.

But if you have Quicken on for 100% of your spells, you will run out of spell points before the end of the quest and you will either end up piking and your party members will carry your worthless behind through the remainder of the quest or the quest will just fail. 100% of your spells will avoid interruption - until you can't cast any more spells at all. And once you run out of spell points, you can consider every spell that you would have cast with those spell points you sunk into Quickening your other spells as having been interrupted.

Quicken can make enough of your spells uninterruptable for you to succeed in quests and Quicken can give you a faster casting time on key spells, but it can't make 100% of your spells bypass the concentration/interruption mechanic or you won't be able to finish your quests (unless the only spell that you're casting is Mass Heal every 7 seconds during a boss fight and just piking the remainder of the quest).

If Quicken were free, then I would absoultely agree that it would be overpowered. But it isn't. It has two very significant costs. A large majority of Clerics, FvS, Sorcerers, Wizards and Artificers take Quicken (although not all do). But an extremely large majority of the characters that do have Quicken don't turn it on for more than a couple of key spells. And before we had spell-specific metamagic, an extremely large majority of those same casters kept Quicken turned off entirely most of the time. I think that is a good indication that Quicken is not overpowered.

Aaxeyu
02-05-2012, 07:12 PM
I understand your argument here and I do think that you are making a rational argument, but I also think it's incorrect. Quicken does not work 100% of the time even though it seems to.

If you turn on Maximise and Empower for the appropriate spells at the appropriate times and you don't spell points like a half Orc on shore leave, then you'll be able to finish quests successfully and have some spell points left over at the end in case of emergencies. Life is good and people will say that you're overpowered.

But if you have Quicken on for 100% of your spells, you will run out of spell points before the end of the quest and you will either end up piking and your party members will carry your worthless behind through the remainder of the quest or the quest will just fail. 100% of your spells will avoid interruption - until you can't cast any more spells at all. And once you run out of spell points, you can consider every spell that you would have cast with those spell points you sunk into Quickening your other spells as having been interrupted.

Quicken can make enough of your spells uninterruptable for you to succeed in quests and Quicken can give you a faster casting time on key spells, but it can't make 100% of your spells bypass the concentration/interruption mechanic or you won't be able to finish your quests (unless the only spell that you're casting is Mass Heal every 7 seconds during a boss fight and just piking the remainder of the quest).

If Quicken were free, then I would absoultely agree that it would be overpowered. But it isn't. It has two very significant costs. A large majority of Clerics, FvS, Sorcerers, Wizards and Artificers take Quicken (although not all do). But an extremely large majority of the characters that do have Quicken don't turn it on for more than a couple of key spells. And before we had spell-specific metamagic, an extremely large majority of those same casters kept Quicken turned off entirely most of the time. I think that is a good indication that Quicken is not overpowered.

What game are you playing?

HarveyMilk
02-05-2012, 07:25 PM
What game are you playing?

Exactly, what a joke. When buffing, quicken is off. When questing, quicken is on, period. If you're running out of sp, then you're not using your sla's, pre benefits, meleeing, etc... non-sp-using combat options wisely. Friends don't let friends drink-n-pay2win, they help them learn2play.