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Havok.cry
01-31-2012, 06:15 PM
I might be wrong here, but I seem to remember that if the + on the bolts was higher than the + on the weapon, that battle smith would not apply it's +2 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. If that is true the new +6 bolts will have some side effects:

arti with epic weapon: weapon is same or higher, and therefor enhanced by battlesmith
arti with +5 weapon: +6 bolt is higher, battlesmith does not make +5 weapon into +7 weapon, arti loses dps and to hit
arti with +4 weapon: +6 bolt is higher, but battlesmith would have only matched it so no difference
arti with +3 weapon or lower: +6 bolt is net gain

So am I wrong about this?
If Im right, is it WAI?

tekkentroop
02-01-2012, 05:15 AM
its still and advantage when using low+ random loot with special effects, like paralyzers, disruptors etc...

Looting_Bin
02-01-2012, 07:37 AM
If turbine followed the rules on PnP as far as ranged combat goes on fireing item and ammunition the the bolts apply strictly to dmg whereas the weapon applies strictly to the to-hit so if you are using a +6 weapon with +1 bolts your attack would be BAB+stat+Enhancement+modifiers and your dmg would be BaseWeapondmg+enhancement+modifiers ie.. Tho hit is

15(lvl20)+12(dexmodifier)+6(weaponenhancement)+2(g oodhope)=35

and dmg

2d6(weapon base)+1(bolt)+2(goodhope)=2d6+3

Now granted i didnt use all the modifiers we usually have but you get the idea. The +6 bolt should be applying to only dmg and the epic weapon should be applying to only to-hit. I havent checked it but this is the way it should be.

Vesuvium
02-01-2012, 07:42 AM
The +2 enhancement bonus from Battle Engineer should apply to the weapon regardless of the ammo used. If it is not, then that is a bug.

Looting_Bin: In DDO, enhancement bonuses on ammo and and ranged weapons apply to both attack and damage, but they do not stack. So if you have +1 bolts but a +3 crossbow, you will get +3 to both attack and damage.

Absolute-Omniscience
02-01-2012, 07:59 AM
The +2 enhancement bonus from Battle Engineer should apply to the weapon regardless of the ammo used. If it is not, then that is a bug.

Looting_Bin: In DDO, enhancement bonuses on ammo and and ranged weapons apply to both attack and damage, but they do not stack. So if you have +1 bolts but a +3 crossbow, you will get +3 to both attack and damage.

I think he means that if you have better bolts (say +3 bolts ) with a +1 crossbow, that battle engineer benefit (+2 to weapon) is useless, since it'll push the weapon to +3 (same as bolt) and hence do nothing. A way to overcome this would be to either make it buff the arrows or bow, depending on which one is best. So with +3 bolts and +1 bow it buffs the bolts ot +5, rather than the bow to +3. Or, that it simply applies +2 dmg and +2 to hit to the character, rather than to the bow.

Havok.cry
02-01-2012, 08:56 AM
I think he means that if you have better bolts (say +3 bolts ) with a +1 crossbow, that battle engineer benefit (+2 to weapon) is useless, since it'll push the weapon to +3 (same as bolt) and hence do nothing. A way to overcome this would be to either make it buff the arrows or bow, depending on which one is best. So with +3 bolts and +1 bow it buffs the bolts ot +5, rather than the bow to +3. Or, that it simply applies +2 dmg and +2 to hit to the character, rather than to the bow.

This

Coldin
02-01-2012, 10:06 AM
I think he means that if you have better bolts (say +3 bolts ) with a +1 crossbow, that battle engineer benefit (+2 to weapon) is useless, since it'll push the weapon to +3 (same as bolt) and hence do nothing. A way to overcome this would be to either make it buff the arrows or bow, depending on which one is best. So with +3 bolts and +1 bow it buffs the bolts ot +5, rather than the bow to +3. Or, that it simply applies +2 dmg and +2 to hit to the character, rather than to the bow.

Yep. Or for a more high level example....

If you have a +5 crossbow, using +6 bolts....you'll still only get +7 to attack in damage, meaning the +6 bolts might as well be +0. So....either the plus on the bolts will be useless, or the Battle Engineer bonus will be useless.

quijenoth
02-01-2012, 11:08 AM
Well I suppose Battle Engineer is still useful for melee based artificers...

@ looting_bin, I'm not sure what version of PnP D&D your using but DDO is based off of 3.X and according to the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)

Ranged Weapons and Ammunition

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).

danotmano1998
02-01-2012, 11:10 AM
Looting_Bin: In DDO, enhancement bonuses on ammo and and ranged weapons apply to both attack and damage, but they do not stack. So if you have +1 bolts but a +3 crossbow, you will get +3 to both attack and damage.

Excellent clarification, one I have been wondering about since I made my Arti.
Thanks for that!

TempestAlphaOmega
02-01-2012, 11:11 AM
As others have stated,

Make it so that the Battle Engineer bonus applies to BOTH the weapon and the ammo, this will allow the benefit to truly always be a benefit.

Since Weapon and Ammo enhancment bonuses do not stack it should not cause any other issues.

BoBo2020
02-01-2012, 11:16 AM
Well I suppose Battle Engineer is still useful for melee based artificers...

@ looting_bin, I'm not sure what version of PnP D&D your using but DDO is based off of 3.X and according to the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm)


You know, this change to the bolts allows you to craft some really powerful repeaters. You can just ignore the enchantment bonus altogether.

A +0 (effectively +4 at level 12) Holy Burst Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Greater X Bane (with Masterful Craftmanship) would be available at ML 13 and would do decent damage for quite a few levels.

quijenoth
02-01-2012, 11:56 AM
You know, this change to the bolts allows you to craft some really powerful repeaters. You can just ignore the enchantment bonus altogether.

A +0 (effectively +4 at level 12) Holy Burst Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Greater X Bane (with Masterful Craftmanship) would be available at ML 13 and would do decent damage for quite a few levels.

Very good point!

Havok.cry
02-01-2012, 01:03 PM
You know, this change to the bolts allows you to craft some really powerful repeaters. You can just ignore the enchantment bonus altogether.

A +0 (effectively +4 at level 12) Holy Burst Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Greater X Bane (with Masterful Craftmanship) would be available at ML 13 and would do decent damage for quite a few levels.

Noted for self and thanks.

Postumus
02-01-2012, 01:19 PM
You know, this change to the bolts allows you to craft some really powerful repeaters. You can just ignore the enchantment bonus altogether.

A +0 (effectively +4 at level 12) Holy Burst Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Greater X Bane (with Masterful Craftmanship) would be available at ML 13 and would do decent damage for quite a few levels.

This begs the question: does the Greater Bane to hit bonus stack with the battle engineer bonus? I would think it does, but I've never tested it and the way things stack in this game are not always how I think they would stack.

Any idea how the 'bane' bonuses are typed?

So would a +0 holy burst of greater giant bane in the hands of a battle engineer be +6 to hit giants? Or +4?

DrawingGuy
02-01-2012, 02:22 PM
Being that the bane is a different bonus type than the straight enhancement bonus, it would indeed stack as that +0 counts as a +2 in a BE hands (for +6).

But as the posts say, definitely love the new bolts but they pose a problem. The entire benefit of +6 is undermined by the fact the PrE adds to the bow only. So not only does that provide no gain against a +5 bow, but in fact causes a loss as the trigger point of the to hit look off the base before the PrE. So end game it actually hurts. I'd like to see it change so the +2 hit/dmg applies period to crossbow use.

Ravoc-DDO
02-01-2012, 02:27 PM
So arties get +6 bolts while AA only gets +5 arrows...?

DrawingGuy
02-01-2012, 02:33 PM
I'd take +5 100% return bolts imbued with slaying over 20lbs of +6 non-returning plain bolts any day.

djl
02-01-2012, 02:38 PM
This actually creates an interesting decision to consider now.

With the +6 bolts, is it still worth taking the PRE? That uses 4 enhancement points, and Artys are very strapped for points. Pretty much, what you're getting now is +2 stacking seeker, +1 damage/attack, 10 HP, and the ability to use Fusillade, an ability I feel is grossly overestimated. While it does provide a very short burst of high ranged DPS, the "wind up" animation where you're dealing NO ranged dps for about three seconds cuts the overall gain in half.

I wonder if you wouldn't be better off using those points to further boost your spell damage trees, to enable yourself to boost both the Lightning and Force trees to a fuller extent.

Ravoc-DDO
02-01-2012, 02:38 PM
I'd take +5 100% return bolts imbued with slaying over 20lbs of +6 non-returning plain bolts any day.

I don't; not to mention that bolts stack to 1k, while arrows require a full tab of empty inventory when you wanna use some other type.

Havok.cry
02-01-2012, 04:59 PM
Just remember battlesmith still boosts epic repeaters past what the bolts give.

Elishia
02-01-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't; not to mention that bolts stack to 1k, while arrows require a full tab of empty inventory when you wanna use some other type.

Are you saying you'd rather have your arrows stack to 1k, not go into quivers and give up your slayer arrows and give up 100% returning just to have +6 arrows?

Kilarthia
02-02-2012, 06:33 AM
There's an issue here in that while scaling conjured bolts is a welcome change, battlesmith only applying to the bow itself and not the ammunition makes battlesmith kind of obsolete when you're using good bolts.

In other words, unless you're using a really high enhancement bow, the main feature of an enhancement is being made worthless.

I vote for battlesmith applying to bows AND ammunition.

Forzah
02-02-2012, 07:11 AM
There's an issue here in that while scaling conjured bolts is a welcome change, battlesmith only applying to the bow itself and not the ammunition makes battlesmith kind of obsolete when you're using good bolts.

In other words, unless you're using a really high enhancement bow, the main feature of an enhancement is being made worthless.

I vote for battlesmith applying to bows AND ammunition.

Agree, else the PrE wouldn't make much sense.

MrkGrismer
02-02-2012, 08:26 AM
There's an issue here in that while scaling conjured bolts is a welcome change, battlesmith only applying to the bow itself and not the ammunition makes battlesmith kind of obsolete when you're using good bolts.

In other words, unless you're using a really high enhancement bow, the main feature of an enhancement is being made worthless.

I vote for battlesmith applying to bows AND ammunition.

I don't understand how the main feature of an enhancement is made worthless IF you are using a really high enhancement (x)bow. I can understand if you are using a really low enhancement bow (like a +0 or +1), since it doesn't add enough to exceed the high level conjured bolts, but if the enhancement is high the enhancement with the battle engineer should be higher than the bolts. Then the + on the bolts becomes inconsequential but right now they are just effectively never ending bolts anyways I don't have a problem with that.

I am not saying I would have a problem with it applying to (x)bow AND/OR ammunition (whichever is higher basically), I mean who would, but just applying to the (x)bow is also fine in my book. If that is what it does.

BoBo2020
02-02-2012, 09:16 AM
Just pointing out that we are basing this concern on Tier 1 of Battle Mechanic which is available at level 6 (at that point the bolts are just +2).

Tier 2 and Tier 3 could rebalance this pretty easily.

kaobang
02-02-2012, 12:00 PM
I'd take +5 100% return bolts imbued with slaying over 20lbs of +6 non-returning plain bolts any day.

will you take as well all the feats required to be an AA (PBS, weap focus, mental T), plus the horrible rate of fire of arrows ?:)

djl
02-02-2012, 02:16 PM
Just pointing out that we are basing this concern on Tier 1 of Battle Mechanic which is available at level 6 (at that point the bolts are just +2).

Tier 2 and Tier 3 could rebalance this pretty easily.

Hopefully Fusillade gets better with Tier 2 and Tier 3 as well. 6 seconds is not all that great when you have a 3 second "charge-up" to it.

DrawingGuy
02-02-2012, 05:01 PM
Well, Arti's are already AP starved with expensive trees for their bow. Expensive trees for their rune arms. And then spells, skills, and general attacks to worry about. More things to spend points on? lol

But really, yeah, the 3 second charge does suck. It counter balances the bonus, so really only useful for running up to that boss or you run out of the damage boost. T2 of the pre getting rid of that charge up would be nice. Would also be nice if it got rid of the slower run speed of arm charging. Don't find that to be a balancing feature, just annoying. I don't ever run and charge (unless groups are close) as it's tedious. Think losing arm charge is enough of a penalty for moving.

joeuhuh
02-03-2012, 07:05 AM
for whoever was quoting the benefits of +4 arrows when u had a holyburst gtr bane crafted repeater forgot that the gtr bane make the weapon act as if it enhancemtn value was 4 higher than normal--so ur gtr bane xbow is a +4 == +6with the pre outstripin ur +4 arrows once again plus when u get +4 bolts at lvl 12 u might have greensteel which is +5 perhaps since arties get elemental wepons thier conjure bolts could be +1 with a +1 dmg element of choice at lvl 4 they are +1 with d2 dmg lvl 8 d3 lvl 12 d4 lvl 16 d6 lvl 20 d8 just need to add a menue to the spell like resist energy to select the elemetn of the bolt

or conjure bolts could have a progression where uget d2 of a element and as u lvl it adds d2 of another element so at lvl 20 it does d2 of 6 dif dmg types to clog up our screens with even more dmg numbers above mobs heads

or conjure bolts does +1 bolts with d2 u pick elemetn from list at lvl 4and it goes up d2 +1, 2,3,4 for d2+4 of a element at lvl 20

ive always wished for a spellthat would consume a random loot arrow and make it returning for a certain amt of time depending on caster lvl so picking up the gtr bane or slaying bolts from chest might actualy be useful u pick up a nice stack of 20 gtr bane arrows from a chest and u have material comps to make those returing 20 times instead of trash that never gets picked up because u fire 10k bolts in a gaming session-- i guess the mechanics would have to cast returning on whatever bolt u had equiped in ammo slot on paper doll-- when i log in my artie i stand on the boat summoning 3k bolts would be nice to just pick my arrow and make it returning for 1 min/caster lvl or somehting like that or returning untill i logged


one great option i would like would be to craft quivers thers 2 or 3 named quivers in thegame with effects on them

or perhaps have named returning arrows/bolts of some denomination as end rewards for series-- it was nice that they put craftable arrows in the game but they are pretty weak and take too much time and resources to actualy create enough of them to use on any sort of regular basis who has time to log on their crafter and then make and mule 5k arrows every time u want to play your ranged guy for a couple hours-- there are magical returning arrows in the game by means of arcane archer and the 50 percent returning shards of light from shadow crypt and the 75 percetn returning stuff from d favor why cant there be more-- either make chest stacks of ammo useful or remove them as useless clutter fom the loot table

inggold
02-03-2012, 07:33 AM
I don't understand how the main feature of an enhancement is made worthless IF you are using a really high enhancement (x)bow. I can understand if you are using a really low enhancement bow (like a +0 or +1), since it doesn't add enough to exceed the high level conjured bolts, but if the enhancement is high the enhancement with the battle engineer should be higher than the bolts. Then the + on the bolts becomes inconsequential but right now they are just effectively never ending bolts anyways I don't have a problem with that.

I am not saying I would have a problem with it applying to (x)bow AND/OR ammunition (whichever is higher basically), I mean who would, but just applying to the (x)bow is also fine in my book. If that is what it does.

The only 'really high enhancement" that doesn't penalize the PrE/conjured bolt combo is Alchemical, or possible the ones of dubious merit from House C challenges.

Greensteel is automatically penalized. Everything below greensteel is automatically penallized. Every speciallized crafted or otherwise is automatically penallized.

No other class gets that penalty to their PrE (or other enhancement or feat) application on their primary weapon, only ranged Artificers.... okay, maybe some monks, too, but then, handwraps are another issue entirely.

MrkGrismer
02-03-2012, 01:24 PM
The only 'really high enhancement" that doesn't penalize the PrE/conjured bolt combo is Alchemical, or possible the ones of dubious merit from House C challenges.

Greensteel is automatically penalized. Everything below greensteel is automatically penallized. Every speciallized crafted or otherwise is automatically penallized.

No other class gets that penalty to their PrE (or other enhancement or feat) application on their primary weapon, only ranged Artificers.... okay, maybe some monks, too, but then, handwraps are another issue entirely.

Are you saying you can not get a +5 or better bow except with Alchemical? If so then I am seeing your point (and hadn't noticed no +5 or +6 bows...)

DrawingGuy
02-03-2012, 01:40 PM
The ability to conjure stronger bolts is definitely appreciated. The game mechanic of adding +2 to the enh rather than +2 att/dmg is better as it applies before every modifier... before crits, before damage boosts, etc. I'd take that over a regular +2 attack/dmg unless it similarly applies before any buffs/multipliers.

And really, it boils down to a small nuisance. You can pop into a harbor vendor and buy thousands of plain bolts for a few pp if your weapon is +5 or better. That circumvents the loss of the +1 and is easier than conjuring the bolts. Yes, the preferred method is to have it apply to the higher of the two when ranged, but when all is said and done, I'm grateful for the upgrade and will take it even with the flaw.

goodspeed
02-03-2012, 03:39 PM
I don't much see the point of the bolts unless you were using a specialty bow. Like with harry I like to use a shock banishing pair of handwraps if an arti can inbue em to cover good. (Ya don't have the set yet) But lets face it, after your first life which sails past, You have your GS weapon. With battle that's +7.

So aside from your main weapon cause come on it's just awesomeness, the bolts would be good for a non crafted weapon like say smiting. Though having the pre apply to arrows would be very nice and make em all around useful both with GS and crafted.

Of course if it were to ever change where you could craft anything then it's just a waste. The +5 weapon be it gs or crafted would always be the mod starter. Still I suppose with the bolts all bases are covered with every weapon type. Would also help where you needed blunt bolts increasing the bolt against the I believe +3 weapon. (Can't remember the + of er)

inggold
02-03-2012, 04:08 PM
Are you saying you can not get a +5 or better bow except with Alchemical? If so then I am seeing your point (and hadn't noticed no +5 or +6 bows...)

Exactly.

Short of epic/alchemical, you can not get above +5 on the xbows.

Since the PrE makes it +2 more to the xbow itself, you need to have a repeater of a +3 or less for this change to matter....at level cap. No one else has damage mods placed as an enhancemt bonus that I am aware of, so this "penalty" is unique to the ranged Artificer. Say compared to the bonuses of a WF favored soul, an untyped addition to their greatsword prowess.

Incidentally, heavy repeaters are one of the few greensteels that get hurt in the proposed weapon changes to deal with the application of Deadly Weapons. At first thought I said oh good, this will give that DPS back when just shooting conjured bolts - but because it won't even matter when using a +4 or better xbow because of the way the PrE is applied.

MrkGrismer
02-06-2012, 02:42 PM
Exactly.

Short of epic/alchemical, you can not get above +5 on the xbows.

Since the PrE makes it +2 more to the xbow itself, you need to have a repeater of a +3 or less for this change to matter....at level cap. No one else has damage mods placed as an enhancemt bonus that I am aware of, so this "penalty" is unique to the ranged Artificer. Say compared to the bonuses of a WF favored soul, an untyped addition to their greatsword prowess.

Incidentally, heavy repeaters are one of the few greensteels that get hurt in the proposed weapon changes to deal with the application of Deadly Weapons. At first thought I said oh good, this will give that DPS back when just shooting conjured bolts - but because it won't even matter when using a +4 or better xbow because of the way the PrE is applied.

Well, I was a little surprised that the conjured bolts where going to +6 and not +5, but who am I to call for a nerf of that ;)

Because, really, short of Epic you really shouldn't be able to get better than +5. At least in PnP, but of course this isn't PnP.

However, +5 plus the 2 from battle engineer still gives you one better than the bolts give.

Havok.cry
02-06-2012, 03:06 PM
Wow this thread got alot bigger than I thought it would. IMHO this is just a minor issue.

I wonder if augment weapon (lvl 1 arti spell) would up a +5 bow to +6 and then get it the +2 from the PRE? anyone cot a arti on lama to test it with? I know its kinda irrelevant, because over all any other weapon enhancement would be better still, but I'm curious, and maybe the devs can do something with the info.