PDA

View Full Version : Thinking about Divine Power...



justagame
01-30-2012, 10:05 PM
Ok, there have been countless rage threads about this, calls for nerfs, etc. so I'm a bit hesitant to wake this dragon. But here it goes: In my opinion, the main issue has been that DP is just a powerful in the hands of a melee divine (we're mostly talking about the oft-referenced WF battle FVS here), as it is in the hands of a caster divine.

In my opinion, the problem with a blanket nerf is that it puts divine casters back in the position they were before -- that their offensive spells were neat little toys while levelling up, but at endgame, the best thing to do was to put them away and just heal. And that gets old fast.

Adding a save doesn't solve the problem either. The long cooldown, the need to 3x stack, and cost of a maximized, empowered, 3x stack means that you're using it mostly in long, single-target battles -- mostly bosses and maybe underbosses. At endgame, their saves are so jacked up that it effectively cuts the damage in half for ALL divines -- those that dumped wisdom, and those that didn't. (I'm ignoring the 0.01% of the population with 3x sorc and wizard past lives, and the best buffs and epic equipment in the game, that have truly unusual DC's).

So, the trick is to ratchet down damage for melees (we can't all be good at everything, can we?), but leave it for those specced as offensive casters.

I think a potentially workable answer might lie in the same mechanic used right now for Divine Might. For those unfamiliar, to access each level of the enhancement, you need a minimum base score in charisma (base + tomes + levels).

14 unlocks DM I
16 unlocks DM II
18 unlocks DM III
20 unlocks DM IV

Obviously, to get the higher enhancements, you need to invest significantly in starting charisma.

What if we made the Smiting enhancement line similarly limited by Wisdom, the casting stat for both clerics and FVS? (This would affect searing light too, but I don't see the problem with that).

16 WIS unlocks Smiting I
18 unlocks Smiting II
20 unlocks Smiting III
22 unlocks Smiting IV

A caster-focused cleric or FVS that started with 18 wisdom could, assuming level-ups in wisdom, unlock Smiting IV by level 16. A melee build that dumped WIS couldn't open up any of them. I'd even be open to increasing the requirements a bit, going from 18 to 22). Someone with 18 wisdom, all level-ups in wisdom, and a +1 tome could reach Smiting IV.

If even be open to lowering the base damage a little, and increasing the % boost to each level, so that a caster with the whole line could still the same damage, but a melee would suffer a little more. (For example, 20% less to start, but an extra 5% boost to each tier). You could do something similar with the Prayer of Smiting crit lines.

Thoughts? I'd particularly be interested in thoughts from those wanting to separate WF battle-soul damage from caster-specced damage. Those who don't think divines should be doing damage like this at all are of course welcome to post too, but I won't find that as interesting, as it pushes the divine classes, and the game, in a divine-as-healbot direction I find much less appealing.

Incidentally, you could consider doing the same to arcane DOTs, but there isn't the same issue there, as you don't see many battle arcanes with dumped casting stats running around.

ArcaneMelee
01-30-2012, 10:23 PM
Ok, there have been countless rage threads about this, calls for nerfs, etc. so I'm a bit hesitant to wake this dragon. But here it goes: In my opinion, the main issue has been that DP is just a powerful in the hands of a melee divine (we're mostly talking about the oft-referenced WF battle FVS here), as it is in the hands of a caster divine.
...

I haven't seen anyone claim that Divine Power is OP - perhaps you're thinking about Divine Punishment?

If there's a problem, it's that the payoff for being a casting cleric isn't worth the costs. I say wait until they release the Exorcist PrE before coming to a conclusion.


...
Incidentally, you could consider doing the same to arcane DOTs, but there isn't the same issue there, as you don't see many battle arcanes with dumped casting stats running around.

I do. I play deeply splashed divine and arcane melees, and IMHO the Heal/Reconstruct spell is far more important to the builds than the DoTs.

justagame
01-30-2012, 10:26 PM
I haven't seen anyone claim that Divine Power is OP - perhaps you're thinking about Divine Punishment?

If there's a problem, it's that the payoff for being a casting cleric isn't worth the costs. I say wait until they release the Exorcist PrE before coming to a conclusion.



I do. I play deeply splashed divine and arcane melees, and IMHO the Heal/Reconstruct spell is far more important to the builds than the DoTs.

Yes of course, meant Divine Punishment. My bad, OP corrected.

Azonalanthious
01-30-2012, 11:11 PM
16 WIS unlocks Smiting I
18 unlocks Smiting II
20 unlocks Smiting III
22 unlocks Smiting IV


Honestly, the spell doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I've no issues with folks wanting a change for it either (don't currently play any divines, after all.) But I do think this is a bad table. You are taking the single most expensive stat requirement feat or enhancement (Divine Might) in the entire game as an example and then raising it for a simple spell damage amp. TWF and THF only take 17s, Monk stances 18s, Improved precise shots 19s. And these are things that provide unique, powerful, effectively impossible to duplicate benefits. A benefit that is barely more then half that provided by a fairly easy to get clicky, less then the benefit of one feat and less then half of the benefit of another doesn't merit the same stat cost as those other things, much less a higher one.

And in the end, it wouldn't really even be effective in limiting the power of the spell. Not when there are 225% worth of other easy to get bonuses (not looking at rarer things like eardweller). Dropping 40% out of the mix one way or the other won't nerf things.

justagame
01-30-2012, 11:20 PM
Honestly, the spell doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I've no issues with folks wanting a change for it either (don't currently play any divines, after all.) But I do think this is a bad table. You are taking the single most expensive stat requirement feat or enhancement (Divine Might) in the entire game as an example and then raising it for a simple spell damage amp. TWF and THF only take 17s, Monk stances 18s, Improved precise shots 19s. And these are things that provide unique, powerful, effectively impossible to duplicate benefits. A benefit that is barely more then half that provided by a fairly easy to get clicky, less then the benefit of one feat and less then half of the benefit of another doesn't merit the same stat cost as those other things, much less a higher one.

And in the end, it wouldn't really even be effective in limiting the power of the spell. Not when there are 225% worth of other easy to get bonuses (not looking at rarer things like eardweller). Dropping 40% out of the mix one way or the other won't nerf things.

To be clear, I agree with you, it doesn't bother me either, but in the event the calls for a nerf keep up, I would at least like to consider an option that doesn't throw out the baby with the bath water (i.e., nerfing it even for those specced as casters.)

As to your other points, I honestly don't think the table changes all that much if you shift the numbers a little up or down. Even someone without any gear that starts at 17 wisdom (which any caster-specced would do), and level-ups would access the top level without any tomes. And if you dropped it a few points, it would still be fine, as it would still be out of reach of anyone who dumped WIS anyway.

You make a great point about the smiting line only putting a small dent in the overall bonuses available. That's why I suggested dropping the base some, but boosting the percent increase at each tier by an amount such that at Tier IV, it would be unchanged from the present.

ArcaneMelee
01-30-2012, 11:29 PM
So, the problem is that a casting divine can't get their DCs up to the point where casting is a viable strategy, so the solution is to create an entire new system of calculating damage for one spell in their arsenal?

Wouldn't it make more sense to fix the broken system instead?

bigolbear
01-30-2012, 11:35 PM
bit of a problem with your ideas, and with 'sticking a save on it'.

most mele divines dont dumpstat wisdom. Sure there are some extreme wf fvs that do, but its by no means the norm accross all races.

my 'battle cleric' for example - 36 wisdom, I could hit 40 if I ever bother to gear him out properly, 42 with a life long dedication to grinding.

There is a penalty by the way, you probably havent thought about it this way but those 10 ap for 'smiting' used to go else where.

Azonalanthious
01-31-2012, 08:26 AM
To be clear, I agree with you, it doesn't bother me either, but in the event the calls for a nerf keep up, I would at least like to consider an option that doesn't throw out the baby with the bath water (i.e., nerfing it even for those specced as casters.)

As to your other points, I honestly don't think the table changes all that much if you shift the numbers a little up or down. Even someone without any gear that starts at 17 wisdom (which any caster-specced would do), and level-ups would access the top level without any tomes. And if you dropped it a few points, it would still be fine, as it would still be out of reach of anyone who dumped WIS anyway.

You make a great point about the smiting line only putting a small dent in the overall bonuses available. That's why I suggested dropping the base some, but boosting the percent increase at each tier by an amount such that at Tier IV, it would be unchanged from the present.

Its a little ironic, because "baby out with the bath water" was EXACTLY the phrase that was running through my mind for what you were suggesting when I logged in to check the forums this morning. ;) Really, what you are suggesting is the equivalent of "Epic Sword of the Shadows is too powerful. So lets change the Two-handed fighting feats to make them harder to get." If Divine Punishment is too powerful and needs a nerf, then you nerf Divine Punishment. Not a tangentially related enhancement line that also effects other spells that are having no issue (if anything, they need a boost).

And I don't agree that "any caster-specced" will start with 17 wisdom. Many, sure. But any time you go beyond 14 in a stat, the increased cost means there is a chance that someone will decide there is somewhere more important to spend their valuable starting points. A dump-stated 8 or 6 Wis is one thing. But someone with a 14 or 15 or 16 shouldn't be in a position where they are looking at "I have to spend every level up and/or use tomes just to qualify for this". You could start the table at 11 and max it at 17 to 'lock out' someone who dump-stated wis from all or most of the line without forcing someone into a max wisdom build if that's the actual goal.

The switch to late-line weighting on the spell enhancement seems unlike to me to happen. One, it still doesn't chance the fact that its only a tiny % of the total bonus, no matter when you obtain that %. But more importantly, its directly opposite of what the devs have done with the arcane enhancement lines. If any change is made to this enhancement line, I would expect to go the other direction, becoming cheaper and easier to get and also more front-loaded, with the initial bonuses becoming larger while the later ones become smaller.

Luis_Velderve
01-31-2012, 10:45 AM
I have a conflicting signal here. Why should you care it is JUSTAGAME? XD now jokes aside.

Divines are way underpowered and DP is good as it is for all divines. EVOKERS FVS have higher kill count that melee FVS in my experience then that leads me to ask.

Are you running a cleric?

dkyle
01-31-2012, 10:55 AM
I'd rather see a per-tick save added to Divine Punishment, than see another overly restricting set of prereqs applied to enhancements.


Divines are way underpowered

Certainly not.

As someone who plays a melee FvS, who's not even WF, Divines are way overpowered. She's far more effective than she has any right to be given how little gear she has, and how suboptimal her build is.

danotmano1998
01-31-2012, 10:59 AM
Personally, I hope they leave the DOT's alone.
They are fine. Without them, casters wouldn't be the DPS they are.

Just un-nerf melee a bit and it's all good.

Sarisa
01-31-2012, 11:09 AM
The "overpowered"ness of Divines is mostly FvS. It's not just because of a single reason, but a host of reasons that all combine together. Divine Punishment is only a small part of it. The innate DR, the high overall saves of FvS's over Clerics less useful high will/moderate fort/low reflex, the lack of useful spells (aside from level 6 spells) that makes the lower number of spell slots not matter, the sheer power and usefulness of Shield Mastery, and the overwhelming spell and debuffing power of the Angel of Vengeance PrE.

Clerics are a strong class, but they don't have the large number of coordinating advantages FvS's have.


Personally, I hope they leave the DOT's alone.
They are fine. Without them, casters wouldn't be the DPS they are.

Just un-nerf melee a bit and it's all good.

Agree. Casters are at a point where they are quite good as is. It's melee who needs help and boosts, not casters who need nerfed down to current melee levels.

Luis_Velderve
01-31-2012, 11:10 AM
I'd rather see a per-tick save added to Divine Punishment, than see another overly restricting set of prereqs applied to enhancements.



Certainly not.

As someone who plays a melee FvS, who's not even WF, Divines are way overpowered. She's far more effective than she has any right to be given how little gear she has, and how suboptimal her build is.

As soon I see a BB critical of 1000 I will be able to believe that but maybe only maybe is because arcanes are really way overpowered that I see divines underpowered.

bloodnose13
01-31-2012, 11:13 AM
maybe the way it works and what it does should be changed from current dot nuke to something more like helpfull to whole party, for example lower dot damage but it makes target more vulnerable to physical damage, or holy/light like aura or condemnation on fvs, that would be more usefull for party as at boss fights it would mean more dps for everyone, not just divines, its just an example of what could be done with that spell to make it bit less op and more party friendly

LordPiglet
01-31-2012, 12:05 PM
As soon I see a BB critical of 1000 I will be able to believe that but maybe only maybe is because arcanes are really way overpowered that I see divines underpowered.

True. The best crit I can get on triple stack DP is 550 (no ear dweller, but green blade, cove dagger and sup brillaince VI clickie). A good BB crit for me is 250.

/not signed for changes to DP

LordPiglet
01-31-2012, 12:06 PM
maybe the way it works and what it does should be changed from current dot nuke to something more like helpfull to whole party, for example lower dot damage but it makes target more vulnerable to physical damage, or holy/light like aura or condemnation on fvs, that would be more usefull for party as at boss fights it would mean more dps for everyone, not just divines, its just an example of what could be done with that spell to make it bit less op and more party friendly

Should the arcane dots be changed to be less OP and more party friendly? What about wail, maybe it shouldn't instakill but make the target vulernable to negative energy?

dkyle
01-31-2012, 12:14 PM
As soon I see a BB critical of 1000 I will be able to believe that but maybe only maybe is because arcanes are really way overpowered that I see divines underpowered.

The size of crits is not the only indicator of power. Or even one of the better indicators. A Barbarian can crit over 1000, but I'd hardly put them in the same league as casters, in terms of overall power.

Besides, a triple stacked Divine Punishment can crit for over 1000 on a tick, even without Aura of Condemnation procs or other vulnerabilities.

zeonardo
01-31-2012, 01:20 PM
While you're on it:

- Nerf eSoS
- Nerf Wail of the Banshee
- Nerf Polar Ray
- Nerf Heal (and Heal, Mass)
- Nerf all DoTs
- Nerf Runearms
- Nerf good builds
- Nerf Paladins and Bards (joking here! buff'em up!)
- Nerf Evasion
- Nerf Slaying Arrows

And call it a day.

C'mon... you can't be serious.

Luis_Velderve
01-31-2012, 01:35 PM
OK OK I get it, maybe I should bribe may way out of quests, charm foes with my looks or diplo them because I have been a good guy...We are talking about characters in a game to crush enemies. If damage output is not a measure of power then everything is ok, no point to speak about it.

I am inspired to roll a 10wiz/10cleric elf now.

zeonardo
01-31-2012, 01:42 PM
I have a better idea.
It will solve all this "inbalance" at all.

Get Clerics and Favored Souls to get ONLY healing spells.
All spell levels. All slots. No negociation!
Each one in a cooldown.
You can drink pots for other stuff like curse, poison and so on.

Yo dawg! I heard you don't like battle clerics.
So we put some heals on your "healers" so they can heal you while they nannybot heal.

We would call it the Healbarian! One button to rule them all!
And we could put a "rage-like" feat too! For MAD HEALS!

Heal Frenzy!
Healbot of the Wild!
Frenzied Healer!

dkyle
01-31-2012, 01:49 PM
OK OK I get it, maybe I should bribe may way out of quests, charm foes with my looks or diplo them because I have been a good guy...We are talking about characters in a game to crush enemies. If damage output is not a measure of power then everything is ok, no point to speak about it.

I am inspired to roll a 10wiz/10cleric elf now.

You were talking about size of crits. Not damage output. Crits are only one source of damage output. And usually a fairly small amount of damage, overall. For a caster with Superior Lore, and full enhancements, spell crits only produce about a 137% multiplier, for average damage per casting/tick. Compare that to 250% for max/empower, and 215% for percent increase enhancements and a spell boost clicky.

An ESoS Barb crits for much larger per-hit damage than a Rogue. Yet in many cases, the Rogue is capable of more DPS.

Pointing at big crits as clear evidence of over- or under-poweredness is a vast oversimplification.

DrNuegebauer
01-31-2012, 01:50 PM
I don't think DP is overpowered.

Around 200dps? Like 1/3 of a good melee.

No nerf required

Autolycus
01-31-2012, 02:03 PM
I don't think DP is overpowered. Remember, DP is limited by your spell points, unlike melees which keep going forever.

bloodnose13
02-01-2012, 07:47 AM
Should the arcane dots be changed to be less OP and more party friendly? What about wail, maybe it shouldn't instakill but make the target vulernable to negative energy?

maybe they should, eladar could give electric vulnerability, niac cold, maybe not so powerfull as sorc ones but they would give wizzies bit extra power too and eveyone useing elemental weapons

nivarch
02-01-2012, 07:52 AM
If casters (divines and arcanes) are so OP, why do people don't go with full group of casters in eLoB?

Casters are indeed powerful at the moment, but toward only some content: content which has been on farm mode for a while.
Rather than nerfing casters, boosting melee, or making content which favor a good party balance is imo much better.

sephiroth1084
02-01-2012, 08:27 AM
Should the arcane dots be changed to be less OP and more party friendly? What about wail, maybe it shouldn't instakill but make the target vulernable to negative energy?
Actually, the arcane DoTs could use a similar nerf as well, and for the same reasons. Wall of Fire was nerfed because it was too efficient, and too much of an obvious selection. That's also the case with the DoTs, though they aren't as OP as WoF was, but that's more about AoE vs. single target, and what their durations are/were like.



While you're on it:

- Nerf eSoS Can't happen in any good way at this point, though it should have happened long ago.
- Nerf Wail of the Banshee No. What we need is a more dynamic game where enemies buff better or randomly come with certain gear to make this not an "I Win" button all the time.
- Nerf Polar Ray Why?
- Nerf Heal (and Heal, Mass) Probably no way for this to happen now, but healing seriously needs revising, as the power of healing has caused a lot of problems in the game.
- Nerf all DoTs To some degree, yes.
- Nerf Runearms Too early to tell.
- Nerf good builds Now you're just being stupid.

dkyle
02-01-2012, 08:33 AM
Actually, the arcane DoTs could use a similar nerf as well, and for the same reasons. Wall of Fire was nerfed because it was too efficient, and too much of an obvious selection. That's also the case with the DoTs, though they aren't as OP as WoF was, but that's more about AoE vs. single target, and what their durations are/were like.

Actually, I think the DoTs are more overpowered than WoF was. WoF was just method #7 for casters to decimate trash. A good method, but even without it, casters would still be gods of handling trash. It was also limited by the content at the time, where most of the important enemies were immune to it. The DoTs, though, shatter the niche protection for melee DPS, by giving sustained boss DPS that is often superior to melee DPS.

Infant
02-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Ok, there have been countless rage threads about this, calls for nerfs, etc. so I'm a bit hesitant to wake this dragon. But here it goes: In my opinion, the main issue has been that DP is just a powerful in the hands of a melee divine (we're mostly talking about the oft-referenced WF battle FVS here), as it is in the hands of a caster divine.


I don't see the need to balance melee divines against caster divines. As I see it, they are comparably strong (in endgame), with casters being a lot more powerful against trash and melees a bit better against bosses (though the melee damage dealt between healing and stacking DP is really not that high). I simply don't see any need for balance here.

Right now divines (and arcanes) are overpowered, mainly due to high survivability and decent DPS output. As part of this, melee divines can be very strong.

So my opinion: Adjust (through reducing the damage) DoTs in general -- yes. Nerf DoTs for melee divines -- no. And, IMO, DP should still stay a viable divine tool against raid bosses.

It's basically the same with melee arcanes: The Tukaw is very survivable and can deal decent damage through combination of nuking+DoTs+melee. But it loses the whole arsenal of DC-based spells. There is no need to nerf arcane DoTs for this kind of builds.

Infant

sephiroth1084
02-01-2012, 09:19 AM
Actually, I think the DoTs are more overpowered than WoF was. WoF was just method #7 for casters to decimate trash. A good method, but even without it, casters would still be gods of handling trash. It was also limited by the content at the time, where most of the important enemies were immune to it. The DoTs, though, shatter the niche protection for melee DPS, by giving sustained boss DPS that is often superior to melee DPS.
I don't agree.

Firewall simply dominated content from level 7 to the Vale, and most of the content between/around the Vale and Amrath in a way that only Wail and Circle of Death come close to doing. You wouldn't wipe out a room with it, you'd wipe out several, and for around 80 SP. But you'd also use it to kill most bosses that weren't immune to fire. You could drop the wall and then not do anything but keep yourself away from the bad guys and heal, without spending any more SP if you wanted to, and just mow down wave after wave of monsters, incinerate bosses too foolhardy to avoid running through fire over and over again.

The DoTs are very strong, and are problematic when weighing caster contributions and non-caster contributions in boss fights, but they don't do a whole lot elsewhere, and they are nowhere near as efficient. You spend almost as much SP on a single DoT application as you used to on a firewall, and the DoTs hit only one enemy, hit only every 2 seconds, last for 1/5th the time firewall used to, care about facing, and really have to get reapplied several times to be very effective.

baronlager
02-01-2012, 10:06 AM
Ok, there have been countless rage threads about this, calls for nerfs, etc. so I'm a bit hesitant to wake this dragon. But here it goes:

This is what puzzles me. This issue has been discussed in countless thread. Why do we resurrect these issues on a regular basis around here. DP is great for boss fights. That is where it is primarily used. And in those fights, divines likely have to focus on not only healing the melees, but also casting offensively, and conserving spell points so they can do both. If the bosses were so easy to handle, the divine wouldn't even need to dot it, because the melees would have the situation fully under control. It is one spell, useful against one target. The divine needs to invest in enhancements to maximize the effect of the spell. And may expend further sps by using maximize, etc., in a boss fight. The way people complain about this, you would think this was a free spell that didn't consume resources or enhancements to use effectively. Stop requesting nerfs. Enough already.

baronlager
02-01-2012, 10:07 AM
The DoTs are very strong, and are problematic when weighing caster contributions and non-caster contributions in boss fights, but they don't do a whole lot elsewhere, and they are nowhere near as efficient. You spend almost as much SP on a single DoT application as you used to on a firewall, and the DoTs hit only one enemy, hit only every 2 seconds, last for 1/5th the time firewall used to, care about facing, and really have to get reapplied several times to be very effective.

And +1 to this. A better explanation than mine.

sephiroth1084
02-01-2012, 10:46 AM
And +1 to this. A better explanation than mine.
My point wasn't that DP doesn't need nerfing, just that it isn't as over-powering as firewall was. It doesn't need to get nerfed hard, but it needs some downward adjustment (ditto for Niac's and Eladar's), whether that means giving them a save, or doing something else with them.

danotmano1998
02-01-2012, 10:53 AM
My point wasn't that DP doesn't need nerfing, just that it isn't as over-powering as firewall was. It doesn't need to get nerfed hard, but it needs some downward adjustment (ditto for Niac's and Eladar's), whether that means giving them a save, or doing something else with them.

Disagree.
Melee need un-nerfed.

Dots are just fine.



The DoTs are very strong, and are problematic when weighing caster contributions and non-caster contributions in boss fights, but they don't do a whole lot elsewhere, and they are nowhere near as efficient. You spend almost as much SP on a single DoT application as you used to on a firewall, and the DoTs hit only one enemy, hit only every 2 seconds, last for 1/5th the time firewall used to, care about facing, and really have to get reapplied several times to be very effective.

dkyle
02-01-2012, 11:06 AM
Firewall simply dominated content from level 7 to the Vale, and most of the content between/around the Vale and Amrath in a way that only Wail and Circle of Death come close to doing. You wouldn't wipe out a room with it, you'd wipe out several, and for around 80 SP. But you'd also use it to kill most bosses that weren't immune to fire. You could drop the wall and then not do anything but keep yourself away from the bad guys and heal, without spending any more SP if you wanted to, and just mow down wave after wave of monsters, incinerate bosses too foolhardy to avoid running through fire over and over again.

The DoTs are very strong, and are problematic when weighing caster contributions and non-caster contributions in boss fights, but they don't do a whole lot elsewhere, and they are nowhere near as efficient. You spend almost as much SP on a single DoT application as you used to on a firewall, and the DoTs hit only one enemy, hit only every 2 seconds, last for 1/5th the time firewall used to, care about facing, and really have to get reapplied several times to be very effective.

The issue is that I don't consider domination of mid-game especially problematic, compared to dominating end-game.

FW was a great spell (and still is) at mid-game. But mid-game is so wildly imbalanced in basically every way that it barely mattered.

On the other hand, boss fights are what justified the existence of melee DPS. In every other way, casters have pretty much always outclassed melee DPS (at least since the cap went to 16). So FW making casters even more super awesome at killing mid-level trash didn't really matter that much. They'd be awesome anyway, and it's not like that content is challenging enough to worry about balance anyway. DoTs taking away the last thing melee DPS were actually good at, at end-game, in actually challenging Raids, is the bigger problem.


DP is great for boss fights. That is where it is primarily used. And in those fights, divines likely have to focus on not only healing the melees, but also casting offensively, and conserving spell points so they can do both.

The fundamental flaw in your logic is your assumption that a group should even have melee DPS in it at all, and that tying the divines down to healing the melee is worth bothering with. A party full of casters is just plain better than a "balanced" party of 2 "healers", 2 casters, a tank, and 7 melee DPS. The casters, whether divine or arcane, are capable of doing the melee DPS's role (killing the boss), at least as well if not better, while also being capable of so much more.

baronlager
02-01-2012, 12:29 PM
The fundamental flaw in your logic is your assumption that a group should even have melee DPS in it at all, and that tying the divines down to healing the melee is worth bothering with. A party full of casters is just plain better than a "balanced" party of 2 "healers", 2 casters, a tank, and 7 melee DPS. The casters, whether divine or arcane, are capable of doing the melee DPS's role (killing the boss), at least as well if not better, while also being capable of so much more.

I understand your point. My guild runs diverse groups - so my thoughts on this issue are dictated by my own experience. I don't know that this is a flawed assumption, as it is based on the game I actually play. Am I supposed to assume we have a full party of 6 to 12 FVS in the group (depending on normal quest versus raid) and then assess whether DP might be OP? And then make adjustments based on that being the norm? Assuming the devs do adjust DP based on that set of factors, isn't the player base that chooses to run only the "most effective" class then going to assess what class is the next best? And then, all go and run that one instead? Can the devs control that segment of players who plays the game in this fashion? I'm not sure of the answer.

dkyle
02-01-2012, 12:38 PM
I understand your point. My guild runs diverse groups - so my thoughts on this issue are dictated by my own experience. I don't know that this is a flawed assumption, as it is based on the game I actually play. Am I supposed to assume we have a full 6 to 12 FVS in the group and then assess whether DP might be OP? And then make adjustments based on that being the norm?

You're not supposed to assume any group composition as the "norm". If you want to evaluate game balance, you should look at the abilities of various builds, and figure out if they're balanced in a way that rewards diversity of builds.

The important question is whether it's a good game design, and thus produces good reasons to run a wide variety of builds, and to form diverse groups.

Assuming diverse groups, to justify something as good design, is begging the question.



Assuming the devs do adjust DP based on that set of factors, isn't the player base that chooses to run only the "most effective" class then going to assess what class is the next best? And then, all go and run that one instead? Can the devs control that segment of players who plays the game in this fashion? I'm not sure of the answer.

In a well designed game, there'd be good reasons for optimizers and powergamers to use a wide variety of builds, and form diverse groups, because those groups would be superior to groups comprised of a few similar builds.

The classic way to do this is with "holy trinity" design. Have Healers, Tanks, and DPS, require supreme dedication to those roles, and design content that requires all those roles. I'm not saying DDO should go this route (I in fact think it shouldn't), but it's an example of how balance can produce variety, even if everyone is a ruthless optimizer.