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Llewndyn
01-30-2012, 11:53 AM
Bards - Give them Wail of the Banshee

I know this has come up before. I haven't ever seen a thread where this has, but I am positive I am not the first person to come up with this.

Bards are fun. They are cool, play sweet Def Leppard riffs that boost the party, and also can fascinate all manner of non epic, non purple named, non red named, non orange named, non enchantment- immune, mostly non undead trash (meaning that one human ranger in Finding the Path. Everyone else is immune*).

Right now bards get level 6 spells topped out. This is cool, unless you are fighting a bad guy who has more than 11 HP, then it is NOT cool. soundburst does as much damage as a lazily placed fart in a drafty warehouse most of the time, the amount of CHA you need to make it daze more than one bad guy who was almost dead anyway means it is your most powerful damage dealer a lot of the time, and greater shout is a joke.

"But Llewndyn, Bards get dancing ball!" - So do sorcs. Theirs are usually better.

"But Llewberry, Bards fascinate is awesome!" - yes it is, but the stars must be aligned for you to use it, meaning:
1. You have to have time to play the song. Ever start playing a song and NOT get beat into oblivion? You are luckier than me
2. Everyone has to know what you are doing for it to matter. This is not the case 85% of the time.

"But Lemony Snickets, you get crushing despair/ other lame spells!" - this is my point.

If bards got something like an improved cursespewing song or something that worked like waves of exhaustion, I would shut up and not post stuff like this. That would be cool. Giving bards wail of the banshee, which is a SOUND spell, would be cool and make sense. It would also get more people to play bard. This is all things I approve of.

I know Wail is a higher than level 6 spell. Or at least I think it is, I'm too lazy for research or fact checking, I leave that up to the philosophisers. Bards, at this point, take more work than an average caster to be 25% weaker (in general, I know there are bards that are very strong spellcasters, they are not as strong as a decently built sorc or wizard though), and double as much work to make a weaker melee that also can't stand in and take a beating like normal melees can. This makes me sad. I see builds where bards end up with 500 HP and all manner of AC and superb spell points (I sit at 1168 right now) and have 38-40 DCs, but when your build needs stuff that people go YEARS trying to get (torc, +3/ +4 tome, picture of Horoth's mom, etc...) I don't count that as a viable normal build.

Anyway, back to my request. Make it a 6th level spell for bards. Make getting it a feat or something you have to explicitly spec for. I don't care, just make it happen. And quickly, I'm about to TR and wanna try it once.

Outside of doing that, make Firewall/ blade barrier/ wail of the banshee a purchasable scroll in the portable hole. You can get ALL of my spells sans fascinate in this manner; fair's fair. Spending 20k plat PER firewall scroll on the AH is lame and stupid. Yes I'm whining.

* I am being sarcastic**
** Not really***
*** seriously, I'm being sarcastic.

Silverwren
01-30-2012, 12:32 PM
Sheesh! After all that you almost had me convinced that bards suck! ;)

Good thing I turned /sarcasm on!

macubrae
01-30-2012, 01:01 PM
Sheesh! After all that you almost had me convinced that bards suck! ;)

Good thing I turned /sarcasm on!

Read it again, that should do it.

zeonardo
01-30-2012, 01:28 PM
/signed

then I could finaly roll a bard!
Otherwise, I will let them pike on my HoX. And that's it.

Ausdoerrt
01-30-2012, 02:38 PM
/no

This is based on DnD, bards don't get anything of the kind. Especially not a level IX wizard spell.

Llewndyn
01-30-2012, 03:26 PM
/no

This is based on DnD, bards don't get anything of the kind. Especially not a level IX wizard spell.

12 CON is an acceptable amount.
Bad guys don't have HPs that can only be measured using scientific notation.
30% striding boots of featherfall with + to jump are either useless or gamebreaking.

Your argument makes no sense. And if I muddle through a triple TRed bard and contribute little to nothing in the way of actual DPS via melee or spell nuking, why should I NOT get ONE decent spell that actually kills something? The best part about this game is things CAN change and don't have to follow some rigid set of rules. TBH I would be MORE than happy getting a couple debuff songs with short cooldown timers that stacked at high levels. As it stands though there is almost NO point to staying pure bard through level 20 unless you are going completionist. There is no 3rd tier of the bard Pre, and in my mind wail could have a lower base DC when a bard casts it, so is it really gamebreaking?

Unless you were just trolling to get my hackles up, then...um... hmm.

DavionFuxa
01-30-2012, 03:58 PM
Even though my main character is a Bard, and I do agree that the class needs a few more bumps, I think Wail of the Banshee is out. It simply doesn't fit with the class in that Bards don't have any insta-kill spells. The class does need help but further augmenting it's 'jack of all trades' persona probably isn't the way to do it.

chodelord
01-30-2012, 04:19 PM
Bards should get Wail as a capstone, require either 19 base charisma or virtuoso 2 prc

50 mana cost, 1 min cooldown, can be quickened

Llewndyn
01-30-2012, 04:35 PM
Bards should get Wail as a capstone, require either 19 base charisma or virtuoso 2 prc

50 mana cost, 1 min cooldown, can be quickened

That doesn't sound gamebreaking either... and would get more people than just me playing virtuoso!

About bards not getting instakill spells - I see your point, really I do. I just think a small gimme like that would make them more than what a lot of people think they are, buffbots. I know bards can be so much more if you focus on melee skills, I just think there should be a high level spell to shoot for too.

If no one likes the idea of a bard causing instadeath, what say you about stacking cursespewing songs? A waves of fatigue song, even? It could be something like In the Garden of Eden or something (that's inna gadda davida to those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, by Iron Butterfly)... tell me then it would not be awesome playing a bard. And the dnd stuff, while I like the idea of sticking close to those great roots, it would still not be that out of line with what a bard is there for. I would take a further nerf to all damaging spells if we could get a song set, maybe Toccata and Fugue, Danse Macabre, or even the barroom alien jam from Star Wars IV. George Lucas doesn't care anymore, look at Jar Jar Binks. For these reasons and more that I haven't mentioned, I think I win the argument. Devs, I expect an in game /tell tonight with when I can test this stuff out.

Thanks.

AtomicMew
01-30-2012, 04:46 PM
The only thing I really dislike about bards is that their songs take way too long. Being song-locked for a whole ~8 seconds completely sucks for a game that is supposed to be fast paced.

Antheal
01-30-2012, 05:29 PM
Is Wail on their D&D spell list?

Kilarthia
01-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Wail of the Banshee? I dunno. A bard trying to perfect singing badly? lol!


I think that bards should DEFINITELY instead get mass hold monster. That fits the flavor of the current bards more IMO.

Viciouspika
01-30-2012, 06:36 PM
For those of you that are sorcs and wizzys, are spell points a part of PnP DnD? ANSWER: NO. Thus, that is an invalid arguement. I would like some old stand-by's like Mirror Image. I think if mage spells can bypass boss mobs spell resistance and saving throws why not bard songs. Maybe we could let bards have an improved phatasmial killer spell, also.

/signed

Party time excellent! diididiiiddiiooddoodoodoo!!!!

Saravis
01-30-2012, 06:53 PM
While we're at it lets give them all the Power Word spells too :P

On a more serious note, among the numerous improvements for bards, could we just have songs be done much faster, like strum a chord and done. It'll make using fascinate and recasting short-term buff songs so much easier and less painful.
-please

Zenthalas
01-30-2012, 06:56 PM
no

Enoach
01-30-2012, 07:07 PM
For those of you that are sorcs and wizzys, are spell points a part of PnP DnD? ANSWER: NO. Thus, that is an invalid arguement. I would like some old stand-by's like Mirror Image. I think if mage spells can bypass boss mobs spell resistance and saving throws why not bard songs. Maybe we could let bards have an improved phatasmial killer spell, also.

/signed

Party time excellent! diididiiiddiiooddoodoodoo!!!!

You might want to check this out before you take the stance that spell points aren't part of PnP. It was a introduced variant. Where do you think Turbine got its idea for Spell point costs?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

Zenthalas
01-30-2012, 07:10 PM
For those of you that are sorcs and wizzys, are spell points a part of PnP DnD? ANSWER: NO. Thus, that is an invalid arguement. I would like some old stand-by's like Mirror Image. I think if mage spells can bypass boss mobs spell resistance and saving throws why not bard songs. Maybe we could let bards have an improved phatasmial killer spell, also.

/signed

Party time excellent! diididiiiddiiooddoodoodoo!!!!

Unearthed Arcana, 1985 version, introduced the concept of spell points vs. memorized spells sooo... yeah it's been out there for a long time.

Calebro
01-30-2012, 07:21 PM
While I agree that Wail would be a ridiculous spell for bards for multiple reasons, Phantasmal Killer wouldn't be out of the question. It's an illusion spell, which is one of the bards' specialties. It's within their spell level range. And there is even a gnomish racial alternate class level which grants it as a bard spell (for gnomes and only gnomes, but still....)

Wail of the Banshee = absolutely not.
Phantasmal Killer = I could see it.

joaofalcao
01-30-2012, 07:27 PM
Semi-Interesting link related:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wail_of_the_Banshee

As you can see, sor/wiz 9.

It is a necromantic spell, of the highest circle of magic. Bards are jacks of all trades. They dont expertise on arcane secrets, therefore, being not able to learn the hardest of spells.

They dont qualify.

Will anyone argue that it is a spell in wich the caster scream? Therefore, is it bard related?

No, anyone can scream.

Its not about screaming loud, its about manipulating the highest necromancy.

Will anyone argue that "I want my bard to have it"?

1 - You cant have it all. Sorry. Game balance is intrinsic to the D&D ruleset and if you start giving bards high level arcane spells, well, they will stop being jack of all trade and will be masters of some trades.

2 - You are asking for a new hability, but your not giving anything in return. All being asked is more power, without a trade off.

I recall a paragraph or two on the players handbook 3rd edition about races and habilities. On the specifics of creating a new race and wich stats are ok to increase/decrease. If you are increasing, say, +2 strenght, you gotta give something equivalent in return. Otherwise, such race (or any other game element) will master the others and there will be no point in taking any other race(or any other game element).

badbob117
01-30-2012, 07:36 PM
I Would like to see new stuff added, rather then recycled stuff from other classes. Preferably something to do with sonic damage. Or some kinda new song that enables us to deafen and damage creatures with a massive AOE Sonic boom, that has the ability to blow mobs eardrums and brains out their butt! :D

Claransa
01-30-2012, 07:51 PM
/no

This is based on DnD, bards don't get anything of the kind. Especially not a level IX wizard spell.

Why not? Bards get mass charm monster and its a level VIII wizard spell.

Calebro
01-30-2012, 07:57 PM
Why not? Bards get mass charm monster and its a level VIII wizard spell.

In addition to being a level 7 wiz spell, it's also a level 6 bard spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmMonsterMass.htm). The same cannot be said of any necromantic spells, especially level 9 wizard necro spells.

Claransa
01-30-2012, 08:21 PM
I agree as far as necromantic spells go, just saying the level is not so much a key factor. So on that note why not another level 9 spells such as hold monster mass?

Gizeh
01-30-2012, 08:55 PM
And while we're at it, give rogues the heal spell - having to buy stacks of scrolls and getting the rogue's umd skill high enough is too tedious...

EustaceTrevelyan
01-30-2012, 09:03 PM
...or even the barroom alien jam from Star Wars IV. George Lucas doesn't care anymore, look at Jar Jar Binks. ...Thanks.

Unfortunately, he still cares about the money. Motorola had to license "droid" from lucasarts (look closely in the fine print of droid ads, or on its website somewhere.) Even tho droid is just a shortened form of android, which isn't (tm) lucas, and referred to actual star wars characters, not com devices. But, whatever. Thanks for ruining my childhood, lucas:P (Star Wars fan protocol requires a shout-out to all lucas has done for you whenever taking the name in vain;))

dozkal-mo
01-31-2012, 03:48 AM
I don't think I could say /notsigned any better than just saying it. You want an insta-kill level 9 Necro spell as a level 6 Bard spell?

*walks off shaking head*

Ausdoerrt
01-31-2012, 05:25 AM
Your argument makes no sense. And if I muddle through a triple TRed bard and contribute little to nothing in the way of actual DPS via melee or spell nuking, why should I NOT get ONE decent spell that actually kills something? The best part about this game is things CAN change and don't have to follow some rigid set of rules. TBH I would be MORE than happy getting a couple debuff songs with short cooldown timers that stacked at high levels. As it stands though there is almost NO point to staying pure bard through level 20 unless you are going completionist. There is no 3rd tier of the bard Pre, and in my mind wail could have a lower base DC when a bard casts it, so is it really gamebreaking?

Unless you were just trolling to get my hackles up, then...um... hmm.

Just because someone dismisses your outlandish ideas, doesn't make them a troll.

Bards are a quintessential support class, not a DPS/Nuking class. They contribute to to "actual DPS" significantly, via huge buffs to melees' damage, specialists' skills, regen to casters' hitpoints, and secondary healing. If you want a nuker/instkiller, maybe roll a PM wizard? Just because you don't seem to get the point of having a bard in the party, doesn't mean the class should be changed for you. :/ I've met players who enjoy playing bards and manage to spec them out to their purposes, be it healing, buffing or DPS. Yeah, they'll never be as good as the specialized classes, bu that's the whole point.

Any rules, existing or proposed, need to make sense. Wail for bards doesn't. Why don't we give Wail to all classes? My AC tank takes too long to clear certain types of trash.

Debuff songs or song-based spells I can see though, those have a basis in PnP, and fit the overall bard image.

arjiwan
01-31-2012, 05:41 AM
Or give bards an echo DoT Spell.

Damage is based on Caster levels AND Charisma Modifier.

Denegrator
01-31-2012, 05:53 AM
/not signed.

Bards do not get Wail of the banshee. Here is a list of bardic spells:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm

Also from D20srd:

Epic Bard
Hit Die

d6
Skill Points at Each Additional Level

6 + Int modifier
Spells

The bard’s caster level is equal to his or her class level. The bard’s number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level. The bard does not learn additional spells unless he or she selects the Spell Knowledge feat.
Bardic Music

The bard gains no new bardic music effects from his or her Perform ranks. However, he or she may select epic feats that grant new bardic music effects
Bardic Knowledge

Add the bard’s class level + Intelligence modifier to all bardic knowledge checks, as normal.
Bonus Feats

The epic bard gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic bard bonus feats) every three levels after 20th.
Epic Bard Bonus Feat List

Augmented Alchemy, Deafening Song, Epic Inspiration, Epic Leadership, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Group Inspiration, Hindering Song, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity, Inspire Excellence, Lasting Inspiration, Master Staff, Master Wand, Music of the Gods, Permanent Emanation, Polyglot, Ranged Inspiration, Rapid Inspiration, Reactive Countersong, Spell Knowledge, Spell Stowaway, Spell Opportunity, Tenacious Magic.
Inspire Courage (Su)

The epic bard’s bonus when this ability is used increases by +1 every six levels higher than 20th.

JasonJi72
01-31-2012, 06:47 AM
FYI, Bards do not suck. They are my favorite to play in DDO. It does take a certain playstyle to truly love playing a bard though.

Wail of the Banshee? No way.

The problem is that to play a caster bard at end game is very difficult, and there is room for improvement in this area. Anything a bard can do with spells is dwarfed by an arcane with less focus.

Ways to improve this:

1. Capstone: Heighten enables all spells to be cast as level 9 spells when heightened.
2. Elf: Elven Arcane Arcanum works for Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard.
3. Shadow Spells: These spells are desperately needed. Add an enhancement line to boost the damage.
4. Tier III songs: I hope they are decent.
5. Silence Spells: Allow deafening spells to prevent npc trash casters from casting when successful.
6. DOT Spell/Song: Here is for hoping. Come on, give a Bard a bone. Please.
7. Phantasmal Killer: Logical, but unless option 1 is available, the dc will be too low with 2 saves.

Melee Bards, Archer Bards, and Caster Bards are all very viable and fun to play.

I too like Virtuoso's, and I can't really see why people think they are bleh. I kinda like being able to dump cha and still have an uber cc capability via songs.

I had a lot of fun playing my Bard today, and I'm glad I didn't delete him after reading the first post. I am on my fourth bard build (not life), and I am still learning how to play a bard better. What makes bards truly awesome, is that you will never encounter the exact same bard twice. The class is that versatile.

Now if we could only get the group to immediately start dancing when we sing buff songs...

Llewndyn
01-31-2012, 12:29 PM
And while we're at it, give rogues the heal spell - having to buy stacks of scrolls and getting the rogue's umd skill high enough is too tedious...

I would be FINE with BUYING a scroll, and would support even a watered down version. Your sarcasm is a fail.

As for wail being a necromantic spell, I also said I would concede getting some stat debuff songs as an amicable trade off.

Being a jack of all trades is fine, one spell does not equal AWSUM. Mass hold monster would be fine too.

I would go for PK as well, just thought since it's wail of the banshee there could be a tie in because...um... see bards use sound as a weapon... ok that's as far as I got.

Ganolyn
01-31-2012, 12:44 PM
I could see them getting Cyclonic Blast. They would need to rename it to "Rock You Like A Hurricane" though.

CanuckWisdom
01-31-2012, 01:02 PM
Any new AOE bard ability must involve a spot light that shines on them like theyre the center of the world for 3 seconds and then boom huge sonic damage pbaoe, everyone goes flying back!

DrNuegebauer
01-31-2012, 01:24 PM
Or give bards an echo DoT Spell.


I'd say this is a better idea. But make the damage based off a standard formula (ala the arcane/divine DoTs).

Then ALSO give bards mass hold monster as a level 6 spell.

That would go a long way towards giving bards some DPS in boss scenarios (the dot) and in trash scenarios (hold it all). Would certainly not be comparably to anyone else's DPS, but would be something at least!

Calebro
01-31-2012, 05:33 PM
If you want Mass Hold Monster, then you need to roll a Virtuoso.
Most of the Virts' abilities may be a bit lackluster, but Enthrallment is the single best CC in the game, hands down. You want Mass Hold Monster? That's essentially what Enthrallment is, only the DC can be in the 60s or 70s. Sure they get another save when damaged, but good luck making it.
Virtuoso is extremely underrated.

All those Spellsingers that complain about not having enough CC should have rolled a Virt.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 06:31 PM
I do not think wail should be a spell for bards, but a wail song makes sense to me. Perhaps for the virtuoso third tier prestige enhancement give them wail of the banshee the song.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 06:34 PM
I'd say this is a better idea. But make the damage based off a standard formula (ala the arcane/divine DoTs).

Then ALSO give bards mass hold monster as a level 6 spell.

That would go a long way towards giving bards some DPS in boss scenarios (the dot) and in trash scenarios (hold it all). Would certainly not be comparably to anyone else's DPS, but would be something at least!

They should definitely give bards a dot there is no reason that the devs should not. If they do not want to make it as effective as arcanes dots just have it be 3/4 as effective as niacs for instance. I do not understand why the arcanes and divines got dots and bards did not. This seems like an oversight by the devs.

Calebro
01-31-2012, 06:37 PM
I do not think wail should be a spell for bards, but a wail song makes sense to me. Perhaps for the virtuoso third tier prestige enhancement give them wail of the banshee the song.

That's too much.
One of the Virtuoso's tier three songs will likely be Revealing Melody (true seeing as a song). But that wouldn't be enough on it's own, so a second song is likely.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 06:44 PM
That's too much.
One of the Virtuoso's tier three songs will likely be Revealing Melody (true seeing as a song). But that wouldn't be enough on it's own, so a second song is likely.

I always thought virtuoso was a lousy choice for a prestige enhancment. What the devs should have done was chosen a better prestige class like seeker of the song or the libris mortis bard prestige class. It really is not too late for them to switch they have already decided not to give warforge juggernaught and the like. Just because something is easier to make does not make it worthwhile.

Calebro
01-31-2012, 06:47 PM
I always thought virtuoso was a lousy choice for a prestige enhancment. What the devs should have done was chosen a better prestige class like seeker of the song or the libris mortis bard prestige class. It really is not too late for them to switch they have already decided not to give warforge juggernaught and the like. Just because something is easier to make does not make it worthwhile.

I've always wanted Lyric Thaumaturge. Choose one Wiz/Sorc spell of each level (1-6) added to your spells known. That PrE alone would go a LOOOOOOONG way toward silencing some of these complaints that we've had.
You could add Acid Fog or Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold or Circle of Death, PK or WoF, Fireball or Lightning Bolt, Melf's or Resist, and Shield or whatever level one spell (as examples), etc, and get a little more bang for your bardic buck.
Tier I would get one each 1st and 2nd, tier II would get one each 3rd and 4th, and tier III would get one each 5th and 6th.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 06:52 PM
I've always wanted Lyric Thaumaturge. Choose one Wiz/Sorc spell of each level (1-6) added to your spells known. That PrE alone would go a LOOOOOOONG way toward silencing some of these complaints that we've had.
You could add PK, Fireball, etc, and get a little more bang for your bardic buck.

Sure that would work but that I would maybe swap for spellsinger. The only pre that I am totally onboard with is warchanter because it fits and I think the songs can work if modified to fit ddo. seeker of the song would be great instead of the virtuoso because it is all about using songs in a variety of ways of course that songs would have to be tweaked to fit ddo but I think it would be a really fun class to play. spellsiinger would be nicer if it were the lyric Thaumaturge for sure.

LrdSlvrhnd
01-31-2012, 07:53 PM
Things I want for my gimpy virt hagglebard crafterbot:

1) About 100 more crafting levels. (No, I'm not asking the devs to give me this.)

2) A way to stack songs. I'd love to be able to play Inspired Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Sustaining song at once. I don't care if it still takes three charges, I want to be able to play once and go.

3) Sustaining Song to work on WF. And while we're at it, that spellsinger SP song, which I hear also doesn't work on WF.

4) Enthrallment to count for Suggestion/Mass Suggestion.

5) Other players to respect the notes. Stop waking up all my enthralled monsters and focus on the ones who're already/still moving!

6) SOMETHING that can work on orange/red/purple-nameds. I don't care if it's a song or a spell. But they're generally immune even to the semi-useful stunning aspect of the sonic spells. I'd love a semi-decent DOT song *or* spell that works on bosses, or at least an effective AoE effect - either damage or CC. Song of Discord (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/songOfDiscord.htm) looks pretty sweet - sounds like Charm Monster, except they'll fight each other instead of acting like allies, and seems like players could target them as well - could probably get several free shots in before getting aggro.

7) Spell enhancements to work on songs. C'mon, it's called SONG Magic and Lyric of SONG/Incredible SONG, how come they don't affect Sustaining Song's healing? Plus, a 10-40% increase in the effectiveness of songs (Not that Enthrallment doesn't already have an insanely high DC to begin with, but increase it by 10-40%? Ye gods! A 20% boost for Inspire Courage should add at least +1 to-hit and damage. Not sure what it would do for Inspire Greatness, other than maybe a few extra temporary HP, and other songs, or how the crit enhancements would affect them, but I'm sure something could be figured out.)

8) Inspire Competence (and, for that matter, Song of Freedom) to work on the bard. Yes, I know, a pipe dream, but I still want it.

9) Other players to stop killing everything in a large group in the time it takes me to pop a disco ball. Or, for that matter, Enthrallment. C'mon, you could at least PRETEND to let me participate! A Quicken Song feat/enhancement would rock, though.

10) Other players to respect the notes. (It bears repeating.)

11) Tier 3. And make it GOOD. While you're at it, do Tier 3 for Spellsingers and Warchanters, but they really just need to be good (lowercase vs. uppercase. It doesn't need to be quite as good, considering everybody loves a good SS or WC already... Virts, however, need the love.)

Now, I know that I'm on my own with 1; 5/9/10 just aren't gonna happen in a PUG; and 8's just not gonna happen... but there's no reason 3) & 4 aren't already granted, and I don't think 2, 6, 7, and 11 are really all that much to wish for.

DrNuegebauer
01-31-2012, 07:53 PM
If you want Mass Hold Monster, then you need to roll a Virtuoso.
Most of the Virts' abilities may be a bit lackluster, but Enthrallment is the single best CC in the game, hands down. You want Mass Hold Monster? That's essentially what Enthrallment is, only the DC can be in the 60s or 70s. Sure they get another save when damaged, but good luck making it.
Virtuoso is extremely underrated.

All those Spellsingers that complain about not having enough CC should have rolled a Virt.

So the enthrallment song HOLDS a bunch of enemies? So you can still attack them and do an extra 50% damage (as per held mobs)

Or is it a bit different?


Ah - I see. It is, in fact, a bit different. Takes the full length of a bard song to put into play, and is limited by the number of songs you carry. So enthrallment is NOT like Mass Hold Monster - more of a mega fascinate....


Either way, the 2 things would not be incompatible - no reason bards couldn't have Mass Hold and virts also get enthrallment!

ThePrincipal
01-31-2012, 08:17 PM
I have a warchanter parked at 14. way underpowered compared to everything i've played... and i have a mechanic!

my solution, just make fascinate:
1. takes 1 sec to sing (music can continue just hasten the animation)
2. acts as a mass hold monster spell, centered on yourself with bigger sphere/range, you can hit and they stay fascinated, save every 2 seconds
3. fascinated mob is in auto crit mode - melees and spell damage -

Calebro
01-31-2012, 08:40 PM
So the enthrallment song HOLDS a bunch of enemies? So you can still attack them and do an extra 50% damage (as per held mobs)

Or is it a bit different?


Ah - I see. It is, in fact, a bit different. Takes the full length of a bard song to put into play, and is limited by the number of songs you carry. So enthrallment is NOT like Mass Hold Monster - more of a mega fascinate....


Either way, the 2 things would not be incompatible - no reason bards couldn't have Mass Hold and virts also get enthrallment!
First, if you read the post you quoted, you'll see that I said that Enthrallment is essentially Mass Hold. I never said they were identical. So yes, they're a bit different. But they're close enough.
A mob getting beat on with zero defenses and zero fighting back is quality CC. The fact that those mobs get an extra 50% damage from an actual Hold spell is irrelevant because it doesn't need to die quickly.... because it isn't fighting back.

Limited by the number of songs you can carry? Ridiculous. Virts have 5 more songs than any other bard does, and usually have the enhancements for more instead of spending a feat to qualify, so that makes 5-9 more than other bards. Then on top of that Virts regen songs, and that ability stacks with items that offer the same. Virts quite literally NEVER run out of songs, even when using them offensively.

Calebro
01-31-2012, 09:48 PM
From another thread:


As discussed in another thread, I have always wanted Lyric Thaumaturge (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/lyric-thaumaturge) (from Complete Mage) as a bard PrE. Adding even a single spell of each level up to 6th from the Wiz list would go a long way towards silencing some of the bard complaints. It would also create a ton of different bard build choices. You could add PK and CoD at levels 4 & 5 for an instakiller bard, you could add Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning for a more blasty bard, etc etc etc.
Tier I gets one each 1st and 2nd level spells. Cost 1 AP each (chosen in a similar manner as AM SLAs, one choice per spell level only).
Tier II gets one each 3rd and 4th level spells. Cost 1 AP each.
Tier III gets one each 5th and 6th level spells. Cost 1 AP each.
Keep the extra SP gained from Spellsinger to denote the extra spell slots that an LT gets and fold the Spellsinger songs into it. Add extra sonic damage in tier III (or scaling through the tiers).
Done. There's your Lyric Thaumaturge.

lilleengen2
02-01-2012, 07:32 AM
I would like to see more different songs. Not only songs that buff and CC, but who deal damage, add some kind of curse effect, debuffs and such.(Yes I know we got enthrallment.)

I would like to see that, rather than more spells. (Well, I would like to see a Sonic DOT spell.)



If this have already been suggested, ignore my post. I am lazy and didn't bother to read all the posts. :D