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View Full Version : Blunted ranged weapons... throw UA a bone?



Rhysem
01-28-2012, 04:32 PM
While I'll admit the ranged folks have it nearly as bad as the melees, if you're going to give ranged options of doing non-pierce damage, could you give the unarmed the same option with the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat out of PHB II?

davidolson22
01-28-2012, 08:13 PM
When did they say they were giving ranged blunt weapons?

FastTaco
01-28-2012, 08:18 PM
http://i.imgur.com/wmXHt.jpg

Theres also a identical heavy repeater.

(thanks to http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=359450 for the link to image)

Ausdoerrt
01-28-2012, 08:26 PM
Ooh, nice Abbot-beater. Still, why is the blunt damage such a big deal? It's a niche weapon at best. There aren't that many endgame enemies (currently) which resist piercing damage.

Giving UA the ability to break DR/piercing for a feat would be a waste of a feat, because there are verrry few mobs with that type of DR.

Ganolyn
01-28-2012, 08:29 PM
Neat trick being able to do blunt and piercing at the same time. Does the arrow stop mid-flight and politely ask the target what would hurt most and then swap heads? Reminds me of a Warner Bros cartoon. Coincidence? I don't think so! ;)

Tsuarok
01-28-2012, 08:30 PM
Nearly?
.
.
.
Cool bow.

I thought that they should have made the cove gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Brawling_Gloves) break piercing (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spike_Studded) DR.

Pwesiela
01-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Blunt ranged.....

/sigh

I've waited for this for a long time.

Long time indeed.

Rhysem
01-28-2012, 10:36 PM
Nearly?
.
.
.
Cool bow.

I thought that they should have made the cove gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Brawling_Gloves) break piercing (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spike_Studded) DR.

An item that's available at best once or twice a year doesn't exactly cut it.

Also, with the feat, you do get to cut it -- you get slashing too.

Hey I didn't say it made sense.

Tsuarok
01-28-2012, 10:39 PM
An item that's available at best once or twice a year doesn't exactly cut it.

Also, with the feat, you do get to cut it -- you get slashing too.

Hey I didn't say it made sense.

Well, it doesn't cut it regardless of its availability. It doesn't actually break the DR. :(

Sarisa
01-28-2012, 11:05 PM
No comment on the feat, but...


Still, why is the blunt damage such a big deal? It's a niche weapon at best. There aren't that many endgame enemies (currently) which resist piercing damage.

Off the top of my head...

Abbot, and other Liches (Vault Challenges, Epic Raiyum, SoS Sorjek). This bow is the right level to start facing most of those.

Skeletons (Epic Wiz King, and whatever others get added into the game in the near future).

Pillars in (e)VoN.

Also note that the bow (and crossbow) is naturally Silver+Good, so you can use Slayer or other types of arcane arrows (or summoned +6 bolts) and still bypass Devil raid boss DR.

Ausdoerrt
01-28-2012, 11:47 PM
A rather short list, and marginal improvements. Sure, I'd gladly use it as an undead beater, but not for anything else. And it's certainly nothing so overpowered as to demand the same features for wraps. Oh, and rocks still beat any bow against Abbot anyway. Double if not triple damage (400+ a pop). I'm also pretty skeptical about whether it's better than a good Disruption bow at the same ML.

Silver+Good isn't a huge deal if there's an Arty around. A plenty of bows already break Good DR or can be slotted to do so, and Silver arrows are reasonably priced and easily accessible. Bypassing most DR on a ranged toon is cake if you have a few thousand plat for arrows: roll out ANY GS with a holy effect, add relevant metal type arrows, and bingo.

In other words, a nifty weapon but not the end of the world.

P.S. "Weaken Undead" is the real kicker here IMO. Overlooked it at first, but on a second glance it rocks. Especially if it stacks w/ opportunist, Imp. Destruction and Sunder. I hope we see more items with a similar effect, like rapiers/shortswords for rogues. Or better yet an enhancement line for that similar to/merged with Wrack Construct.

Qhualor
01-28-2012, 11:53 PM
A rather short list, and marginal improvements. Sure, I'd gladly use it as an undead beater, but not for anything else. And it's certainly nothing so overpowered as to demand the same features for wraps. Oh, and rocks still beat any bow against Abbot anyway. Double if not triple damage (400+ a pop). I'm also pretty skeptical about whether it's better than a good Disruption bow at the same ML.

Silver+Good isn't a huge deal if there's an Arty around. A plenty of bows already break Good DR or can be slotted to do so, and Silver arrows are reasonably priced and easily accessible. Bypassing most DR on a ranged toon is cake if you have a few thousand plat for arrows: roll out ANY GS with a holy effect, add relevant metal type, and bingo.

In other words, a nifty weapon but not the end of the world.

P.S. "Weaken Undead" is the real kicker here IMO. I hope we see more items with a similar effect, like rapiers/shortswords for rogues. Or better yet an enhancement line for that similar to/merged with Wrack Construct.

well, its an undead bow... theres not much other use for it when you could use other bows for other things.

either way, im drooling over that bow and i bet in the hands of an AA they could do some serious damage to undead.

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 12:07 AM
Neat trick being able to do blunt and piercing at the same time. Does the arrow stop mid-flight and politely ask the target what would hurt most and then swap heads? Reminds me of a Warner Bros cartoon. Coincidence? I don't think so! ;)

Piercing AND Blunt != Piercing OR Blunt. They don't choose, they just deal both types. Think like Morningstar, which (in PnP) is both blunt and piercing.



well, its an undead bow... theres not much other use for it when you could use other bows for other things.

either way, im drooling over that bow and i bet in the hands of an AA they could do some serious damage to undead.

Well, for any sub-20 trash undead, Disruption is king. I'm also willing to bet that this new bow would still come out quite a bit behind a LitII or a triple-pos GS, except maybe for bosses with high DR like Sorjek in elite SoS. Now, if it gets an epic version.......

AylinIsAwesome
01-29-2012, 12:19 AM
Piercing AND Blunt != Piercing OR Blunt. They don't choose, they just deal both types. Think like Morningstar, which (in PnP) is both blunt and piercing.




Well, for any sub-20 trash undead, Disruption is king. I'm also willing to bet that this new bow would still come out quite a bit behind a LitII or a triple-pos GS, except maybe for bosses with high DR like Sorjek in elite SoS. Now, if it gets an epic version.......

I'm betting that both the Bow and the Crossbow can be made Epic, since sirgog found a Scroll of the Silver Slinger earlier.

Ganolyn
01-29-2012, 12:32 AM
I just think that it's funny that the first(?) cross damage type weapon they introduce into the game is a bow, which in and of itself has no bearing on the damage type as the ammo is the determining factor, when it should have been applied to morningstars and axes from the beginning. This thing somehow takes my normal arrows that only do piercing with any other bow and makes them do blunt damage and turns them silver to boot!

They should just give us blunt arrows and be done with it. Of course that would be just another arrow type that nobody in a party has time to equip unless they want to give up massive amounts of storage space, so I guess this is better in some ways. Too bad it will only be used in high level content.

Funny_looking_mole
01-29-2012, 12:59 AM
I just think that it's funny that the first(?) cross damage type weapon they introduce into the game is a bow, which in and of itself has no bearing on the damage type as the ammo is the determining factor, when it should have been applied to morningstars and axes from the beginning. This thing somehow takes my normal arrows that only do piercing with any other bow and makes them do blunt damage and turns them silver to boot!

They should just give us blunt arrows and be done with it. Of course that would be just another arrow type that nobody in a party has time to equip unless they want to give up massive amounts of storage space, so I guess this is better in some ways. Too bad it will only be used in high level content.

Just to note, there is at least 3 other cross damage types just off the top of my head:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rahl%27s_Might - Quarterstaff gives Slashing/Blunt/Piercing

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Collapsible_Shortbow - Shortbow Gives Slashing/Piercing

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sunblade - Shortsword gives Slashing

sephiroth1084
01-29-2012, 03:29 AM
Well, for any sub-20 trash undead, Disruption is king. I'm also willing to bet that this new bow would still come out quite a bit behind a LitII or a triple-pos GS, except maybe for bosses with high DR like Sorjek in elite SoS. Now, if it gets an epic version.......
For personal damage, definitely behind a Triple Pos vs. undead, though well ahead of a Lit II vs. the big undead bosses (liches) as they are immune to electricity.

The Weaken Undead property, though, probably increases total party DPS by much more than you'd be getting using the Triple Pos. Best bet is to probably carry both, hit the enemy with this bow, swap to Triple Pos for Manyshot, swap back when Manyshot is done.

Wraith_Sarevok
01-29-2012, 03:33 AM
This bow was most likely implemented to give bow rangers a way to hurt skeletons and liches, since the Collapsible can already hurt zombies.

CarpeNoctu
01-29-2012, 04:21 AM
Still, why is the blunt damage such a big deal? It's a niche weapon at best. There aren't that many endgame enemies (currently) which resist piercing damage.

Agreed... While I do like the bow and see some value in it, I think my AA will be sticking with his +1 Holy Burst of Disruption longbow and +1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane for those who are immune to disrupt... As for anything else that's resistant to piercing damage, this is why we have the TWF chain, OTWF and the awesomeness that is Khopesh :)

Of course, I have yet to run a ranged toon through epics, so I may learn something new lol

nivarch
01-29-2012, 06:55 AM
Agreed... While I do like the bow and see some value in it, I think my AA will be sticking with his +1 Holy Burst of Disruption longbow and +1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane for those who are immune to disrupt... As for anything else that's resistant to piercing damage, this is why we have the TWF chain, OTWF and the awesomeness that is Khopesh :)

Of course, I have yet to run a ranged toon through epics, so I may learn something new lol

Calculations are wrong. See Ravoc-DDO post. Made an obvious mistake, didn't take into account that only physical damage is reduced by DR.

Quick comparison on hard abbot:
Considering crit profile is the same, I'm going to ignore strength, bard songs... Abbot on hard has 30DR/Blunt
I'm assuming you have IC.

Feel free to correct any errors. I'm pretty sure there are some.

+1 Holy Burst of disruption:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 + 100 * 5% = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 14 + 0.7 + 5 = 31,2 + base damage - 30 = 1.2 + base damage

+1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4 + 3d6 = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 4 + 10.5 = 27 + base damage - 30 = -3 + base damage

Triple positive (+5, Holy, good blast, good burst, Greater disruption):
1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 * 5% + 1d6 + 4d6 * 5% + 6d6 + 100 * 5% = 5.5 + 5 + 7 + 1.4 + 0.7 + 3.5 + 0.7 + 21 + 5 = 49.8 + base damage - 30 = 19.8 + base damage

Bow of silver flame (+4, holy burst):
1d8 + 4 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% = 4.5 + 4 + 7 + 1.4 = 16.9 + base damage

So triple positive is ahead by 2.9 damage per hit ; all other weapons are miles behind.
To reach the best DPS, you'd have to debuff him and switch to triple pos every 20 seconds.

This weapon is a very good abbot beater for people that don't have a triple pos yet (triple pos is not expensive, but it still takes a while for a new player to grab it). It will also be worth using even by a non archer character just for debuffing abbot (I'll grab one on my FvS for this purpose... need to check if I have a chance of hitting him).

When epic, only a bump from +4 to +6 would make it almost on par with triple pos.

Note that on elite abbot, the normal version is 7.1 damage ahead of triple pos.


Edit: I have not taken into account arrows. I'm not a pro of archers, what arrows would you use with these bows?
Edit2: Triple pos is still a better general skeleton beater even if some skellies have DR up to 30 according to wiki.

Deathdefy
01-29-2012, 07:24 AM
I know elite SoS Sor'jek has literally 50 DR, so this option is way better than a triple pos. I was doing 0 base damage on the vast, vast majority of hits on him. Though this was sans bard, and without complete party buffs, so you could maybe consistently do 10ish if you were mega-pimped.

I have been too wussy to run Abbott on my arti for this very reason and was planning on crafting a triple pos Warhammer. Just awesome. Saved me some larges!

Ganolyn
01-29-2012, 07:29 AM
Just to note, there is at least 3 other cross damage types just off the top of my head:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rahl%27s_Might - Quarterstaff gives Slashing/Blunt/Piercing

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Collapsible_Shortbow - Shortbow Gives Slashing/Piercing

Two other very high level specialty items that many won't ever see. Too bad about that. Slashing arrows (giggle). That's just silly, but useful.




http://ddowiki.com/page/Sunblade - Shortsword gives Slashing


The Sunblade doesn't gives piercing and slashing, just slashing so it isn't really a cross damage type weapon, but IC: Slashing doesn't increase its crit range, IC: Piercing does. That doesn't matter as you can't crit undead anyway, but it would be nice if they fixed it because it still can be used as a Righteous weapon. If they wanted it to be really good they would cross type it with bludgeoning (even though that wouldn't make much sense either) so it could be more useful against low level skellies.

Sarisa
01-29-2012, 07:34 AM
Two other very high level specialty items that many won't ever see. Too bad about that. Slashing arrows (giggle). That's just silly, but useful.

Rahl's Might is commonly used (especially by divines), as it's a very good boss debuffer that can be used by any class with proficiency. Most of the time you won't even notice the multiple types of damage with it.

Yalina
01-29-2012, 07:36 AM
Quick comparison on hard abbot:
Considering crit profile is the same, I'm going to ignore strength, bard songs... Abbot on hard has 30DR/Blunt
I'm assuming you have IC.

Feel free to correct any errors. I'm pretty sure there are some.

+1 Holy Burst of disruption:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 + 100 * 5% = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 14 + 0.7 + 5 = 31,2 + base damage - 30 = 1.2 + base damage

+1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4 + 3d6 = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 4 + 10.5 = 27 + base damage - 30 = -3 + base damage

Triple positive (+5, Holy, good blast, good burst, Greater disruption):
1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 * 5% + 1d6 + 4d6 * 5% + 6d6 + 100 * 5% = 5.5 + 5 + 7 + 1.4 + 0.7 + 3.5 + 0.7 + 21 + 5 = 49.8 + base damage - 30 = 19.8 + base damage

Bow of silver flame (+4, holy burst):
1d8 + 4 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% = 4.5 + 4 + 7 + 1.4 = 16.9 + base damage

So triple positive is ahead by 2.9 damage per hit ; all other weapons are miles behind.
To reach the best DPS, you'd have to debuff him and switch to triple pos every 20 seconds.

This weapon is a very good abbot beater for people that don't have a triple pos yet (triple pos is not expensive, but it still takes a while for a new player to grab it). It will also be worth using even by a non archer character just for debuffing abbot (I'll grab one on my FvS for this purpose... need to check if I have a chance of hitting him).

When epic, only a bump from +4 to +6 would make it almost on par with triple pos.

Note that on elite abbot, the normal version is 7.1 damage ahead of triple pos.


Edit: I have not taken into account arrows. I'm not a pro of archers, what arrows would you use with these bows?
Edit2: Triple pos is still a better general skeleton beater even if some skellies have DR up to 30 according to wiki.

In Abbot, just go to meteor, take boulders and use them, 400 dmg per shot is far more dps.

Ganolyn
01-29-2012, 07:43 AM
Edit: I have not taken into account arrows. I'm not a pro of archers, what arrows would you use with these bows?

Undead Bane or Greater Undead Bane I would think for Abbot. That should add another 2d6 + 2 or 3d6 + 4. Undead Slaying or Greater Undead Slaying for trash might work assuming they are not immune to it or have outrageous saves. Slayer arrows if you are an AA would give +500 on a confirmed 20, but the description says a living target so I don't know if they would work at all.

EDIT: I don't know the Abbot's alignment, but the correct opposite would add 2d6 assuming he's not in a neutral orientation.

Ganolyn
01-29-2012, 07:45 AM
Rahl's Might is commonly used (especially by divines), as it's a very good boss debuffer that can be used by any class with proficiency. Most of the time you won't even notice the multiple types of damage with it.

True, but there are some who never get a character past level 10 before they start another one. I try to not look at the game through a level 20's eyes when I judge an item's usefulness.

Ravoc-DDO
01-29-2012, 08:27 AM
Quick comparison on hard abbot:
Considering crit profile is the same, I'm going to ignore strength, bard songs... Abbot on hard has 30DR/Blunt
I'm assuming you have IC.

Feel free to correct any errors. I'm pretty sure there are some.

+1 Holy Burst of disruption:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 + 100 * 5% = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 14 + 0.7 + 5 = 31,2 + base damage - 30 = 1.2 + base damage
physical (1d8 + 1 - 30) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 + 100 * 5%) = (4.5 + 1 - 30) + (7 + 1.4 + 14 + 5) = 0 + 27.4 = 27.4


+1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane:
1d8 + 1 + 2d6 + 4 + 3d6 = 4.5 + 1 + 7 + 4 + 10.5 = 27 + base damage - 30 = -3 + base damage
physical (1d8 + 1 + 4 - 30) + effects (2d6 + 3d6) = (4.5 + 1 + 4 - 30) + (7 + 10.5) = 0 + 17.5 = 17.5

Triple positive (+5, Holy, good burst, good blast, Greater disruption):
1d10 + 5 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 * 5% + 1d6 + 4d6 * 5% + 6d6 + 100 * 5% = 5.5 + 5 + 7 + 1.4 + 0.7 + 3.5 + 0.7 + 21 + 5 = 49.8 + base damage - 30 = 19.8 + base damage
physical (1d10 + 5 - 30) + effects (2d6 + 1d6 + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 * 10% + 4d6 * 5% + 6d6 + 100 * 5%) = (5.5 + 5 - 30) + (7 + 3.5 + 1.4 + 1.4 + 0.7 + 21 + 5) = 0 + 40 = 40

Bow of silver flame (+4, holy burst):
1d8 + 4 + 2d6 + 4d6 * 10% = 4.5 + 4 + 7 + 1.4 = 16.9 + base damage
physical (1d8 + 4) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10%) = (4.5 + 4) + (7 + 1.4) = 8.5 + 8.4 = 16.9


The new bow is junk.

You'd need 23 extra physical damage from bow strength, songs and whatnot to even match triple pos. But at that point the triple pos will overcome the 30 DR as well.

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 08:37 AM
I have been too wussy to run Abbott on my arti for this very reason and was planning on crafting a triple pos Warhammer. Just awesome. Saved me some larges!

A ranged toon in Abbot should be using rocks, not whatever weapon he has. Throwing speed might be slower than bow firing, but the damage is far far superior.


Feel free to correct any errors. I'm pretty sure there are some.

EDIT: I got ninja'd with a more accurate post. DR/piercing only blocks the physical damage part. See above.

So really, the Silver Flame bow is a glorified +4 Holy Burst Longbow. 1d8 difference. If not for the "Weaken Undead", the weapon would've been utterly useless. This way, you either swap it it for one shot, then switch to the real damage-dealer for manyshot, or use it to play a support role but forget about decent ranged DPS.

If the intent was to give ranged toons a good toy, this ain't it. It's worse than many random gen items you can get at that ML. I do want to see the epic version of it though, though I'm not expecting much. I half-anticipate them to forget to add an augment slot on it just like the eShatterbow.

CountHenri
01-29-2012, 08:53 AM
The new bow is junk.

You'd need 23 extra physical damage from bow strength, songs and whatnot to even match triple pos. But at that point the triple pos will overcome the 30 DR as well.

One mans trash is anothers treasure...

Getting any of the other weapons listed can be difficult for new players ~ hey getting a triple POS can be difficult when you got a lot of toons to gear or are still at the need GS HP item and LitII level on a single toon etc...

I'll definitely be grabbing the repeating xbow version for my Arti (teamed up with Hand of the Tombs should be extremely sweet) and will be very interested to see what the epic bow version is like for my Ranger...

Also are you considering the 'Weaken Undead' effect in terms of group DPs in an Elite Abbot or in say an Epic Wiz King?

I do love how people who represent probably 1% of the player base go "oh thats junk" without pausing to think it'll probably be a nice improvement over what 50%+ of players are using for that job...

nivarch
01-29-2012, 08:54 AM
EDIT: I got ninja'd with a more accurate post. DR/piercing only blocks the physical damage part. See above.


How did I miss that...

Glenalth
01-29-2012, 09:12 AM
I do love how people who represent probably 1% of the player base go "oh thats junk" without pausing to think it'll probably be a nice improvement over what 50%+ of players are using for that job...

Considering that it's a level 16 item that, for shooting skeletons anyway, is on par with some fancy Greensteel that people usually won't acquire until level 20, I think it's ok. :D

Let's hope the epic version turns up soon to check out. I get the feeling that it's not going to see much of an upgrade over +6 and doubled damage die, but an improved version of Weaken Undead or Greater Disruption would be quite nice.

EDIT: Didn't notice the corrected numbers and didn't bother running them myself. It could use a bit of work. :D

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 09:12 AM
Considering that it's a level 16 item that, for shooting skeletons anyway, is on par with some fancy Greensteel that people usually won't acquire until level 20, I think it's ok.

On par? It's less than half the damage! It's barely "on par" with the better random generated or crafted items...



Getting any of the other weapons listed can be difficult for new players ~ hey getting a triple POS can be difficult when you got a lot of toons to gear or are still at the need GS HP item and LitII level on a single toon etc...

It's not difficult. Greensteel maybe - though it's entirely possible to do within a few months of playing the game. The random lootgens are not hard to get at all - I had a Holy of Disruption weapon before I knew how to use my toon. You can buy something like a Flaming Shortbow of Disruption off the AH for 30-50kpp, which is an investment a new player can afford to make by level 16. I don't give my new toons plat, and they usually have double that by then. Also, a "new player" would likely not have a lot of toons to gear.


Also are you considering the 'Weaken Undead' effect in terms of group DPs in an Elite Abbot or in say an Epic Wiz King?

If you read my posts, you'd know I did consider it and posted my opinion. Sure, the weapon is useful in the situation where giving up most of your own DPS for a debuff would benefit the party more. Like a heavy melee DPS, crit-focused party, and only in a handful of quests. Useful? Sure. Extremely situational? You bet.


I do love how people who represent probably 1% of the player base go "oh thats junk" without pausing to think it'll probably be a nice improvement over what 50%+ of players are using for that job...

It's easy to assume, isn't it? I came to this game in August, and honestly among all the troubles I've had, acquiring a weapon better than a +4 Holy Longbow wasn't one of them. Could probably go to the House D pawn shop right now and find 5 for vendor prices. Sure, there are players who aren't curious about the game or the system, but they wouldn't get any better even playing for years. Saying that over half of players use trash items is rather derogatory, IMO.

Glenalth
01-29-2012, 09:18 AM
On par? It's less than half the damage! It's barely "on par" with the better random generated or crafted items...

Didn't see the corrected numbers before I hit submit.

Deathdefy
01-29-2012, 09:25 AM
Isn't good blast still busted? Or good burst? or something?

Glenalth
01-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Isn't good blast still busted? Or good burst? or something?

The on-vorpal 4d6 on any of the blasts on my bows didn't work last I checked, but that's less than 1 point per hit so it doesn't throw calcs off much.

LeLoric
01-29-2012, 12:13 PM
The new bow is junk.

You'd need 23 extra physical damage from bow strength, songs and whatnot to even match triple pos. But at that point the triple pos will overcome the 30 DR as well.

The trip pos does 10.5 base dmg. So it takes another 19.5 dmg to start seeing base dmg numbers.

Add this 19.5 to your bow of silver flame numbers and you get 36.4 versus 40 for the trip pos. Fairly close to the trip pos for a bow that is really easy to acquire and in ftp content.

Unless they really stink it up the epic version will blow trip pos away for abbot.

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 12:55 PM
The trip pos does 10.5 base dmg. So it takes another 19.5 dmg to start seeing base dmg numbers.

Add this 19.5 to your bow of silver flame numbers and you get 36.4 versus 40 for the trip pos. Fairly close to the trip pos for a bow that is really easy to acquire and in ftp content.

Unless they really stink it up the epic version will blow trip pos away for abbot.

Aand how many rangers do you know with 50+ STR? Especially at level 16? 48-49 = +19, 50-51 = +20. The less STR on the said ranger, the wider the difference between Silver Flame bow and Triple Pos. Needing 50STR on a dex-(or wis-)based class just to make the item comparable is ridiculous (not to mention highly unlikely).

Also, your "really easy to acquire" claim is coming out of thin air. Last time I checked, we haven't seen the quests it drops in yet, nor do we know the mechanics of the drop. For all we know, they could make the drop rates for those similar to Blood Stone or M. Bauble. From what I've seen, named drops in f2p quests tend to be abyssmal.

Now, if they offer a proper epic version, then we could get a nice undead beater. I will, however, reserve judgement on that until we see it.

Glenalth
01-29-2012, 01:50 PM
It's not just strength to make up that +19.5. Favored enemy damage, gear, past lives, and such. Versus very high DR targets is still a very narrow niche for this thing to be decent though.

But then again, if they are running much less than +20 damage per hit I don't want that AA in a raid party anyway. :D

ainmosni
01-29-2012, 01:57 PM
From what I've seen, named drops in f2p quests tend to be abyssmal.



they aiight.

and you dont need 50 str, you need a 19.5 damage modifier.

maddmatt70
01-29-2012, 01:59 PM
Abbot and raiyum have greater dr on elite and epic.. 10% fort reducer and far easy to get then shroud farm. seems good to me. Epic obviously had better be good, but that is another story.

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 02:32 PM
It's not just strength to make up that +19.5. Favored enemy damage, gear, past lives, and such. Versus very high DR targets is still a very narrow niche for this thing to be decent though.

Good point. I guess with FE: Undead it'd be more feasible. That'd put it ahead of the random gens but still behind 3xpos. Though if you're a non-ranger archer, the hurdle's much higher. And the idea that you'd need to TR a few times and grind some rare loot to make a crummy bow less crummy is ridiculous.

Also, recalculated damage with fort taken into account:


+1 Holy Burst of disruption:
physical (1d8 + 1 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 + 100 * 5%) = 0 + (7 + 0 + 14 + 5) = 26

+1 Holy of Greater Undead Bane:
physical (1d8 + 1 + 4 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 3d6) = 0 + (7 + 10.5) = 0 + 17.5 = 17.5

Triple positive (+5, Holy, good burst, good blast, Greater disruption):
physical (1d10 + 5 - 40) + effects (2d6 + 1d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 * 10% * 0% + 4d6 * 5% * 0% + 6d6 + 100 * 5%) = 0 + (7 + 3.5 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 21 + 5) = 36.5

Bow of silver flame (+4, holy burst):
physical (1d8 + 4) + effects (2d6 + 4d6 * 10% * 20%) = (4.5 + 4) + (7 + 0.28) = 8.5 + 7.28 = 15.78


I'm too lazy to come up with numbers that's take feat bonuses and such into account, someone else do it. I might've been overreacting about it a bit by not taking a few things into account, but from the looks of it the bow's niche isn't getting any wider, and bottom line is it needs more love.

nivarch
01-29-2012, 03:02 PM
Snip

I might be wrong but burst and blast effects should work even on 100% fort targets.

I made a bit more calculations, I find that against a 30DR target, it's almost on par with triple pos if wielder has a 20 damage modifier. That's if we neglect criticals.

If you consider the target is sundered and 20% debuffed continuously, it's then exactly on par (1 damage ahead actually) of triple pos with the same 20 damage modifier.

However considering it's a very niche weapon designed to beat on monsters with DR/blunt, I think it should be ahead of triple pos in this very situation: Triple pos, while harder to acquire, is still the best general undead beater available for archers.
A weapon that works on 100% of undead should be worse than a weapon that works only on 2 undeads in the game.

There are many ways to upgrade this weapon. A plain old undead bane, or better, greater undead would make it much better than triple pos for any archers while beating on high blunt/DR monsters. Against monsters with less DR it would still be much worse than a triple pos.

LeLoric
01-29-2012, 03:09 PM
Good point. I guess with FE: Undead it'd be more feasible. That'd put it ahead of the random gens but still behind 3xpos. Though if you're a non-ranger archer, the hurdle's much higher. And the idea that you'd need to TR a few times and grind some rare loot to make a crummy bow less crummy is ridiculous.



Non ranger bow archers are usually kensai or bards. Kensai can hit the 19.5 modifier pretty easily too. 4 from weapon spec feats 2 from enhancements 40 str = 21. Gear also plays a big role here too. Bards get inspire courage to make that amount reachable.
Artificers get 4 from ranged dmg enhanceents and 2 from battle engineer and once again 40 int = 21 dmg modifier. In reality if you cant get +20 dmg modifier you ought to think about a lr. None of these scenarios require a tr.

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 03:19 PM
I might be wrong but burst and blast effects should work even on 100% fort targets.

I made a bit more calculations, I find that against a 30DR target, it's almost on par with triple pos if wielder has a 20 damage modifier. That's if we neglect criticals.

If you consider the target is sundered and 20% debuffed continuously, it's then exactly on par (1 damage ahead actually) of triple pos with the same 20 damage modifier.

If busts proc regardless of criticals, then that'd adjust the calc not in favor of the new bow.

80% fort for a 19-20 crit range weapon gives a whooping 2% crit chance. Assuming (and that's another "if") you have people competent enough to sunder the boss, that jumps to an amazing 3%. It's a debuff primarily for the benefit of the party, not the debuffer. :/

ainmosni
01-29-2012, 06:43 PM
If busts proc regardless of criticals, then that'd adjust the calc not in favor of the new bow.

80% fort for a 19-20 crit range weapon gives a whooping 2% crit chance. Assuming (and that's another "if") you have people competent enough to sunder the boss, that jumps to an amazing 3%. It's a debuff primarily for the benefit of the party, not the debuffer. :/

so? if it benefits the party, it benefits the debuffer as well. why not go further and say, 'if someone in the party was stupid, they'd improve sunder, because it doesnt help them- only the party.'

it's a moot point. we're talking about an un-upgraded item with an epic version lol. you're looking at an Envenomed Cloak and going "who in their right minds would use this? it's only +3 con and i bet it's hard to farm too."

speaking of hard to farm named loot, the stuff in the free sentinals of stormreach chain wasnt too bad to farm, other than the marks, but even then it was like a day of dedicated grinding to get what you want. and im sure the whole 'you get a choice of what item you want from your third completion of the chain' thing isnt just retroactive.

stop spamming the panic button over an item we know very little about at this point.

goodspeed
01-29-2012, 07:04 PM
I don't think it magically changes the ammo type. It's like a hollowed bullet. Or shredders. It's ranged, it pierces through stuff, but it also makes a bigass hole on impact hence bludgeoning.

And to say it can't be done we have so many shrines now it's sick with all forms of crafting. One of which specializes in smelting metals and fixing them. Creating traps from mechanical parts. I don't think a hollow tipped arrow is to far outa the question.

Or we can just say what the game always says. It's magic!!!

Ausdoerrt
01-29-2012, 07:35 PM
so? if it benefits the party, it benefits the debuffer as well. why not go further and say, 'if someone in the party was stupid, they'd improve sunder, because it doesnt help them- only the party.'

Well, Sunder doesn't decrease your DPS. But anyway, someone competent with numbers made a more or less definitive post in the other thread that shows that, if the toon is not a gimp, the new bow is marginally better as an Abbot/Sorjek beater. Yay.


it's a moot point. we're talking about an un-upgraded item with an epic version lol. you're looking at an Envenomed Cloak and going "who in their right minds would use this? it's only +3 con and i bet it's hard to farm too."

Envenomed Cloak is an amazing item for a lv5 character, and one of the best ML5 cloaks int he game. I'd say, while this bow is decent, it doesn't compare all that favorably to other ML14-16 bows, except in two quests mentioned above and eWiz King.


speaking of hard to farm named loot, the stuff in the free sentinals of stormreach chain wasnt too bad to farm, other than the marks, but even then it was like a day of dedicated grinding to get what you want. and im sure the whole 'you get a choice of what item you want from your third completion of the chain' thing isnt just retroactive.

Well, the marks were from the P2P part of the chain. But the "like a day of dedicated grinding" comment shows that you didn't have to do 20+ runs of Blockade Buster for the Mark of Sheshka across multiple toons (ransack and all that). Though for the F2P one you're right, it wasn't mostly too bad except the stonedust wraps are kind of rare. The older f2p loot is certainly much more difficult to obtain.


stop spamming the panic button over an item we know very little about at this point.

It's not a panic button, it's concern about an item that could be better. Ranged users don't get too many good toys to play with to begin with, it'd be nice to see something that's actually exciting.

ainmosni
01-29-2012, 10:36 PM
Well, the marks were from the P2P part of the chain. But the "like a day of dedicated grinding" comment shows that you didn't have to do 20+ runs of Blockade Buster for the Mark of Sheshka across multiple toons (ransack and all that).


it sucks how abysmally low the drop rate of p2p items are in this game.

LeLoric
01-29-2012, 10:37 PM
Well, Sunder doesn't decrease your DPS. But anyway, someone competent with numbers made a more or less definitive post in the other thread that shows that, if the toon is not a gimp, the new bow is marginally better as an Abbot/Sorjek beater. Yay.


No other fighting style has any weapon that even comes close to marginally being better than a triple positive against undead. Not even EPIC Calomels. And you are complaining that a lev 16 bow is barely doing it?

Rhysem
01-29-2012, 10:51 PM
Two other very high level specialty items that many won't ever see. Too bad about that. Slashing arrows (giggle). That's just silly, but useful.

*clapclap*
You make 10 Greater Frog Crotch Arrows.

At least, that's what we called em in Asheron's Call. Or broadheads, I suppose, but most people used froggies for the better damage. It isn't without precedent in a turbine game. Nor the multi-damage-mode UAs, either -- cestus, katars, and nekodes.

sephiroth1084
01-29-2012, 11:11 PM
No other fighting style has any weapon that even comes close to marginally being better than a triple positive against undead. Not even EPIC Calomels.
Which is a problem.


And you are complaining that a lev 16 bow is barely doing it?
How about: There should be a reason for an archer/xbower to run these quests more than once, and getting a weapon to use on 1 boss you may see semi-often if you're the 5% of the populace that has the patience for Abbot, one boss no one seems to run (Sor'jek) and one that there's almost zero reason for you to ever see (Epic Raiyum) just isn't a very strong incentive.

sephiroth1084
01-29-2012, 11:17 PM
Also are you considering the 'Weaken Undead' effect in terms of group DPs in an Elite Abbot or in say an Epic Wiz King?

I do love how people who represent probably 1% of the player base go "oh thats junk" without pausing to think it'll probably be a nice improvement over what 50%+ of players are using for that job...
These two statements really should not have been juxtaposed.

How much of the player base runs the Abbot at all let alone on hard or elite?
How many people are bothering with Epic Wiz King these days?
How many of those groups have enough melees to make Weaken a significant factor?

ainmosni
01-30-2012, 10:16 AM
Which is a problem.


How about: There should be a reason for an archer/xbower to run these quests more than once, and getting a weapon to use on 1 boss you may see semi-often if you're the 5% of the populace that has the patience for Abbot, one boss no one seems to run (Sor'jek) and one that there's almost zero reason for you to ever see (Epic Raiyum) just isn't a very strong incentive.

that is an extremely niche player you're speaking of. and there is more incentive to run these more than once- unless all he wants is the base item, i'd imagine he'd want to make it epic.

the vast majority of the population of the game are not arcane archers who never seem to be able to get to level 20, have no alts, dislike undead quests and avoid them like the plague.

but for those who are, maybe this bow isnt for them.

ainmosni
01-30-2012, 10:23 AM
These two statements really should not have been juxtaposed.

How much of the player base runs the Abbot at all let alone on hard or elite?
How many people are bothering with Epic Wiz King these days?
How many of those groups have enough melees to make Weaken a significant factor?

short answers:

quite a few on ghallanda, at least one a day i see advertised, and ive NEVER seen a normal abbot run. Ever.

a lot of people run ewk. some of the best shards/seals in the game drop from the dozen or so chests in there.

abbot is not a caster-friendly raid. wiz king, is very caster friendly, but it's not run exclusively by casters, by far. not even half the time. not even 1/10th the time. surprise surprise, people run epic wiz king

why are people raising such a commotion over a BASE item that serves its purpose nicely as-is, that we havent even seen epicified yet? bow's good, it's not gonna break the game, it's not overpowered, its not underpowered, people will use it, those who dont want to use it, won't.

or we can continue this tired thread and nitpick some more. i'll start things off:

i dont like the way the bow looks. Fashion designers will never farm this bow, devs upgrade this immediately please, or surely no one will run this new content.

krackythehoodedone
01-30-2012, 10:48 AM
No better than my Triple Pos or Epic Thorn

Maybe the weaken aspect will help party

Against the ''niche'' bosses esp Wiz King his AC is silly on Epic so the plus to hit aint that great.

Otherwise nice bit of kit for a lvl 16

Riggs
01-30-2012, 06:51 PM
There absolutely should some special wraps that can do piercing damage say.

But since so many other things still do not work on wraps as it is...maybe in 2016.

Vormaerin
01-30-2012, 07:14 PM
I have to chime in to say that I agree with the faction saying its ludicrous to compare a lvl 16 quest dropped bow with a tier 3 greensteel item. They aren't in the same league at all.

The bow isn't useful for successful raiders, but raiders aren't the only players in the game. This bow will be helpful to that large number of players who don't have a 2nd T3 raid bow (triple pos isn't going to be your first GS bow...). Those sorts who have a triple pos need to be looking at the epic version, which we don't have.

nivarch
01-30-2012, 08:52 PM
I have to chime in to say that I agree with the faction saying its ludicrous to compare a lvl 16 quest dropped bow with a tier 3 greensteel item. They aren't in the same league at all.

The bow isn't useful for successful raiders, but raiders aren't the only players in the game. This bow will be helpful to that large number of players who don't have a 2nd T3 raid bow (triple pos isn't going to be your first GS bow...). Those sorts who have a triple pos need to be looking at the epic version, which we don't have.

Main issue is that except against very high blunt DR the bow is bad. Not every skeleton has 30 DR :)
That's a good abbot and epic rayium beater, but still a below average skeleton beater and against DR5/Blunt you'd better even get a +1 Holy of Undead bane (well maybe against some skeletons in like elite necro4 it's ahead, but you don't beat them anyway casters will wipe them).

So this bow is actually useful only for hard/elite abbot or epic wk... hence it is good only for raiders. And new players usually don't start running abbot early, let alone epic wk. By the time they do they can easily get themselves a triple pos (it's a single shard item).

This item is not bad indeed. However I see a design issue when an item that is supposed to appeal newer players is indeed going to be useful for people running some of the arguably hardest content in the game.

*Note: This whole post is based on the fact that few mobs have a high DR/Blunt (let's say higher than 15 or 20 where this bow should start to be worth it for an average archer). If this assumption is wrong, the whole post is useless :)

krackythehoodedone
02-01-2012, 05:06 AM
No you are right a 3rd tier GS Bow isnt in the same league as the new Bow. The GS is ML12 the new one ML16 ?!

Lets face it arrows and skeletal ribcages arent a great mix. It was always so with P&P.

A Triple Pos Bow would be an ok choice for your first GS Bow imho. You might not have 24 Larges for the L11, it is great Vs Evil, perfect Vs Undead, Excellent for Mariliths and a Raise Dead Clicky is a ''must have''