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View Full Version : Marilith returning to the challenges, Why.



Bladedge
01-28-2012, 02:27 PM
From Lamannia Release Notes
The Lich has been removed from Extraplanar challenges, and the Marilith has been returned to these challenges.

Just recently your just remove Marilith

Looks like I spoke too soon! After speaking with the Major, it looks like I was mistaken: The lich remains employed, the Marilith is now on the job hunt...sorry for the confusion.

Why are your bring back the Marilith, at least The lich trys to kill the kolbolds. The Marilith on the other hand can be easy agroed and kited around the room till the challenge is over or if you are faster then her you can have her follow you while setting up the line with no danger to the kolbolds.

Just keep them both so players on both sides have a Red name they hate and fear and give a random factor that a number players say there is a lack of in the game.

Post Edit: I perfer the Lich to the Marrith.

Yan_PL
01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
They'll eventually go both on strike, lamenting their poor job security sense.

MrCow
01-28-2012, 06:28 PM
The Marilith is likely the one that wasn't supposed to be canned in the first place, being it is an extraplanar entity in a location host to several other extraplanar critters.

Alexandryte
01-28-2012, 06:36 PM
I do despise that Marilith.

If you melee, you are forced to have high enough HP so you could quaff silverflame potions and still be able to get hits in OR run like hell kiting, and plinking her to death.

At least with the Lich, I could smack him and not get hit for several hundred points of damage (barring failed saves). He has several different moves in his book but also has some counter measures associated with those.


I suppose the one mob that actually gives both melee and casters a decent shot is the hag. She knows how to CC and do damage but not ridiculous damage per point in time.

Karsain
01-29-2012, 04:14 AM
Please, either eliminate the Marillith or give both Marillith and Lich 50%-50% change of appearing.

My usual challenge party:
- my character (bard 16/arti2/fighter2)
- my wife's rogue (pure)
- 2 hirelings (lv 19 FvS, lv20 FvS)

The lich is easily controllable in this team: when we approach the 'spawning point' value of crystals she stops the kobold operations and I run to the spawning point quaffing Ice Resist (20) potion. Probably around that time a Rakshasa spawns, so she, her Xoriat summon and hireling fight the wave and I take the lich.

My goal is not to kill the lich (not enough damage even with lv20 Mournlode Maul tier1) - it is to hold him in that single place so he won't ever see kobolds (so the aggro is on me, Efreet, my Xoriat and my FvS). And usually it works even with Disco Balls around. When my wife finishes with 'Incoming!' wave, we are able to kill the lich (I managed to down 60% of hitpoints at that point).

Now: before you eliminated the Marillith from the challenge I tried to fight it. I really did. The problem: Holy Cold Iron Greatsword of Evil Outsider Bane is... inadequate. I deal one hit, Marillith deals me enormous ~100 damage. So the only other way is to take the repeater and... kite it away. And kite. And kite (in the meantime trying to reconstruct self from time to time) - in this time my wife hasn't got my support at all and needs to 'solo' the challenge.

If you decide to bring Marillith back, PLEASE let us 'dump' the remainder of time in the challenge. I really don't want to lie down dead, say, in Dragon's Hoard for 13 minutes waiting till the challenge ends in case we have one lag hiccup and nothing is recoverable anymore (Foreman down, kobolds down)...

Lich is containable and there are ways how to stop him. Deathwarding kobolds using a hireling also helps and from my experience Lich kills at most 2-3 kobolds even with our mediocre dps if I fail to contain him.

Marillith on the other hand... I still didn't manage to create a plan how to reliably stop her from killing us, the kobolds and Foreman.

If you ignore my voice, I will have to make a suboptimal but working plan, of course ;-).

But during boss selection consider also less powerful melees who use challenges to create a primary equipment for themselves, not only the most powerful players who already have Epic items. We need the Challenge equipment precisely to be able to get to Epic items, not the opposite way.

Yan_PL
01-29-2012, 04:51 AM
If you really want to, you'll contain marlith. grab some cold iron returning thrower of pure good / whatever. just make sure you hit her before she sees any kobolds. and then when you have her aggro, let her chase you like headless chicken.

Alternatively, if you got reasonable amount of hp, engage her in melee range and let hireling heal you (hard to do with full party, due to sick scaling of her damage last time i tried).

usually, killing her with my sorc takes 3-5 casts of niacs biting cold while being chased around.

arroyo
01-29-2012, 02:50 PM
I despise the Marilith as most melee, but figured working strategies to solo both Lich and Marilith down with a hireling. I still believe the random spawn adds to the fun/frustration.

WolfHealr
01-29-2012, 05:17 PM
I would like to see both stay with the 50% chance to show up... granted I have a more difficult time dealing with the Lich on my main (PM), but its more an issue with grabbing his aggro away from the kobolds.

Every time he shows up when I am in CR21+ Buying Time soloing, I simply ignore him and find random mobs to kill to add to my score instead of keeping the kobolds alive and collecting crystals. I've knocked off 90% of his health with Disintegrates and Meteor Swarms, and he still goes after the yarking Kobolds. Any tips would be welcome :)

xxScoobyDooxx
01-29-2012, 06:20 PM
I like the Marilith on my caster ... I take no damage and get all my SP back. The Lich is harder to control but can be killed in around 1200 sp with eardweller. Both should stay.

Xenostrata
01-29-2012, 07:14 PM
Keep both.

Adjust Lich agro.

Tone down Marilith melee damage, and give her a viable ranged attack.

Cordovan
01-29-2012, 09:07 PM
I explained this in a different Lamannia thread, but essentially what happened was there was some confusion as to who was being taken out, and the wrong baddie was removed, so we're correcting it in U13:


Heh, I figured someone would notice this. After doing a little digging, it looks like the intention was to remove the Lich and not the Marilith, but one of our sorcerers sneezed while casting Banishment, and the wrong creature got removed instead. The intention is for the Lich to be downsized, and the Marilith to remain employed.

Xenostrata
01-29-2012, 09:11 PM
I explained this in a different Lamannia thread, but essentially what happened was there was some confusion as to who was being taken out, and the wrong baddie was removed, so we're correcting it in U13:

We know. We like the lich better.

Edit: Rather, the melees like the lich better. The Marilith is easy with DoTs, and should probably be adjusted somehow around that.

Cordovan
01-29-2012, 09:15 PM
We know. We like the lich better.

Edit: Rather, the melees like the lich better. The Marilith is easy with DoTs, and should probably be adjusted somehow around that.

Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

Vordax
01-29-2012, 09:18 PM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

Win!

Vordax

dkyle
01-29-2012, 09:32 PM
I'm confused why this change was needed, and why the one that casters trivialize, and melee struggle with, is the one that got left in. Was it so terrible to have at least one element of those challenges that didn't favor casters completely and totally, that actually favored melee?

At most, I'd say tweak the Lich AI a bit so that the usual aggro mechanics apply (maybe start him of with an aggro list prefilled with kobold hate, or something), but in exchange, buff him up a bit to make him more of a threat to players.

If the Marilith must be kept as the only boss, tone down her melee damage significantly, and give her a nasty Divine Punishment (say, 35 per stack on Epic) that she only uses if no melee hits land for some period of time.

Angelus_dead
01-29-2012, 09:46 PM
I explained this in a different Lamannia thread, but essentially what happened was there was some confusion as to who was being taken out, and the wrong baddie was removed, so we're correcting it in U13:
I suggest adding both Lich and Marilith to the challenge, but changing their pathing so they only wander the side rooms, without ever travelling into the center start room.

sweez
01-29-2012, 09:56 PM
And make them shoot lasers out of their eyes!

Galeria
01-29-2012, 10:18 PM
I'd actually prefer to see them eat the kobolds, complete with kobold feet hanging out of their mouths while they chew.

I wouldn't mind if they ate the occasional player character either.

Bladedge
01-29-2012, 10:30 PM
So both are staying. At least my melees have at 50% to not run in circles for 12 min on epic when soloing.


Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

I would like to see that. What update can we expect to see this.:D



I'd actually prefer to see them eat the kobolds, complete with kobold feet hanging out of their mouths while they chew.

I wouldn't mind if they ate the occasional player character either.

:eek:

Alexandryte
01-29-2012, 10:59 PM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

I don't quite think that solves the problem. ^_^

TheDearLeader
01-30-2012, 12:56 AM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

I don't care if it's Epic Velah, as long as it has appropriate aggro. If I'm doing more damage to it than my Kobolds, it attacks *me*. Instead, we had a Lich that would Mass Hold + Chain Lightning = Dead Kobolds. I have 60 seconds on the clock, but I've just lost half my capacity to collect crystals. It's not even worth reviving them at that point, but it's pretty much screwed my run.

It's not the Mob type. It's not the Melee vs. Caster BS. It's the aggro.

Infant
01-30-2012, 03:24 AM
I don't care if it's Epic Velah, as long as it has appropriate aggro. If I'm doing more damage to it than my Kobolds, it attacks *me*. Instead, we had a Lich that would Mass Hold + Chain Lightning = Dead Kobolds. I have 60 seconds on the clock, but I've just lost half my capacity to collect crystals. It's not even worth reviving them at that point, but it's pretty much screwed my run.

It's not the Mob type. It's not the Melee vs. Caster BS. It's the aggro.

this so very much.

Problem with Lich: Uncontrollable aggro. Fix it and he is fine. He is not hard to kill.

Problem with Marilith: Hard to kill on a melee (possible with a hireling). But easy to kite if you have one or more ppl in the party to take care of other incoming and the torches.

Leave both, but fix Lich's aggro.

Infant

Yan_PL
01-30-2012, 03:28 AM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

Marilich?

Palantyr
01-30-2012, 06:37 AM
Due to curiousity about what L19 supply chests might drop I've done the planar palace a fair number of times now. Usually I'll run the palace on my barbarian, on rare occasion FvS, and rarer yet one of the arcanes, I've racked up a fair amount of experience with both bosses. When I started doing the palace the lich was a bit annoying because he will agro onto the kobolds completely ignoring you given the chance, but after alot of repitition the lich is the boss I prefer to spawn. The only thing you need to do to contain the lich is be waiting for him in front of the portal before he spawns and make sure you stand directly in front of him. If you do this he will only very very rarely manage to agro on the kobolds, the most important thing tho is to be waiting at the portal before he pops out. Now granted, I mostly run the palace quests solo when doing the epic settings and my barb is rather well geared and well tr'd so the lich doesn't stay up too long with the scaling and the CC spells don't generally stick too long but the same wait & keep yourself positioned directly in front works on the favored soul too. It's a little trickier with the arcane due to immunities and funky casting of ray spells at very close range sometmies but the same basic tactic can be applied and work. Basically if you are waiting to catch his spawn, you can position yourself in such a way that he will almost never wander close to the kobolds.

The marilith is a slightly different situation. It's easy to keep her off the kobolds on either melee or blue bar, she generally agros onto her attacker pretty quickly and can be taken to a safe place. Obviously she's no threat at all when playing the FvS or arcane as you can just kite her around the top area and never get hit. Melee however is a silver flame pot fest. She's not particularly any harder on a melee than she is for a hasted divine or arcane but assuming you have the resources availabe she is far more resource intensive. Using a hirling on a melee works ok too if you're careful with your positioning, but personally if I'm going to use a hirling in the palace I prefer a bard for the haste and the bard hirling healing can't quite keep up with the marilith's damage.

Anyhow I thought this spawn was actually kind of balanced with the lich and marilith, as one favored casters more and the other favored melee more so if you're going in solo it's a little roll of the dice but not a roll that will result in not getting a completion, just one that might result in a few less ingredients. In the lets talk challenges thread though, the arcanes whined and cried the lich was too hard to deal with so in true DDO fasion as of late the devs catered to arcane wishes once again and we're going to have marilith only planar palace. Have fun with the blender non-kiting classes.

voodoogroves
01-30-2012, 08:24 AM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

That would be awesome. Make it so!

Talon_Moonshadow
01-30-2012, 08:45 AM
Maybe we could split the difference and create an undead spellcasting Marilith? :)

This has my vote! :D

somenewnoob
01-30-2012, 08:51 AM
This has my vote! :D

/signed!

That just sounds fun.

Plus my cleric can just burst that to death like the lich! :p

TPICKRELL
01-30-2012, 09:01 AM
If you melee, you are forced to have high enough HP so you could quaff silverflame potions and still be able to get hits in OR run like hell kiting, and plinking her to death...Or enough AC that you are not taking hundreds of points of damage...

I've been leveling a PM to go with my stable of melees and having played both sides of this, I vote to keep both. The maralith is a pain for a melee unless you are prepared, and the lich is a pain for a caster unless you are prepared, but I've consistently killed both of them solo with both melee and PM.

For my melee the maralith is fight and then kite until the heal comes in from the hireling... repeat until its dead. Note for my AC melees there is no need for the hireling. I don't use any pots. And this is easier with a leveling toon rather than a 20 plus you get xp.

For the lich, and my PM, it's a max empowered disintegrate and then wack it a couple of times with a mornload maul or throw a second disintegrate if I'm flush with mana.

TPICKRELL
01-30-2012, 09:04 AM
this so very much.

Problem with Lich: Uncontrollable aggro. Fix it and he is fine. He is not hard to kill.

Problem with Marilith: Hard to kill on a melee (possible with a hireling). But easy to kite if you have one or more ppl in the party to take care of other incoming and the torches.

Leave both, but fix Lich's aggro.

InfantThe Lich's aggro sucks, but I've had no problems, since I started managing the sequence of events to make sure that I'm standing at the portal waiting when quota is achieved. That way the lich doesnt have time to get to the kobolds.

Cordovan
01-30-2012, 09:39 AM
Marilich?

Wish I'd thought of that. :)

somenewnoob
01-30-2012, 09:43 AM
Wish I'd thought of that. :)

I'm sure he'll give you permission to use it! :D

Havok.cry
01-30-2012, 10:16 AM
You should just make it so instead of having the dragon on the map, it replaces the lich and the maralith.

Riggs
01-30-2012, 06:59 PM
The fact that a 6 armed khopesh monster can hit anything under 80-90ish ac 6 times (with cleave on all 6 arms) AND overrun anyone trying to stand close to her is the problem.

Considering most of the characters out there that are not defenders or barbs will get "She runs up, knocks you over, and swings twice, maybe 3 times - dead" is absurd.

The Marilith used to have 6 attacks - but not 6 cleave attacks as I recall many years ago. Trying to make a level 15 raid harder for level 20s prompted the cleave change, among other buffs.

Reading multiple posts about "Do ranged damage and run away" clearly points to an overpowered monster.

Kilarthia
01-30-2012, 10:17 PM
I think really that the lich has no place in the challenge, simply due to the combination of the lack of a player's ability to grab its attention, and its ridiculous effectiveness at killing every kobold on sight, even when not targeting one (aoe!). Having that in a challenge where you can't resurrect kobolds especially is simply absurd. What was that? We got unlucky and the lich spawned? He wandered around a bit while we tried to melee him? Now everything is dead and we're supposed to pike for 9 minutes or get no reward? A deus ex machina is a bad game design at best.

The marilith, on the other hand, at least you have some control over its aggro. At least it won't slaughter every kobold in sight regardless of what you do. What I think should be done about the marilith and melees though, is just make it melee combo attack less often. Perhaps give the uber double 6x slice combo attack a cooldown time of, oh i dunno, a random 3-12 seconds, and a visible charge up just long enough for a melee to instant swap to a shield and block it? Hey, the mechanics are now more interactive! (That's usually a good thing)
And while the uber combo is on cooldown, maybe it can just alternate between attacking at a slower rate and casting spells.

Yan_PL
01-30-2012, 10:29 PM
The fact that a 6 armed khopesh monster can hit anything under 80-90ish ac 6 times (with cleave on all 6 arms) AND overrun anyone trying to stand close to her is the problem.

Considering most of the characters out there that are not defenders or barbs will get "She runs up, knocks you over, and swings twice, maybe 3 times - dead" is absurd.

The Marilith used to have 6 attacks - but not 6 cleave attacks as I recall many years ago. Trying to make a level 15 raid harder for level 20s prompted the cleave change, among other buffs.

Reading multiple posts about "Do ranged damage and run away" clearly points to an overpowered monster.

na-ah. if there's such things as "universal build", that's good "vs every mob", it's not in line with D&D spirit. My pen & paper D&D DW always focused on analyzing weaknesses of party, and more than once picked up a monster that would be of lower CR than party should encounter, but with some qualities that made it actually hard for us to dispatch. In other words, finding a humiliating weak spot in our defenses, teaching us to prepare versatile characters.
anyway, as i was saying, we should not lead to situations where "melee approach is always best" or "ranged approach is always best" or "spellcasting approach is always best". no, really, if you want to be able to melee everything, go melee shadows in part 2 shroud. For the sake of variety, leave both bosses to spawn at random, OR with a nudged randomization based on party make-up (at lower versions, spawn lich if there's more melee, at higher versions spawn marilith for melee more often).

As long as you make it "still possible to get ingredients", it's still cool. 50-50 chance at lich/DQ works fine enough.

Seriously tho, leave it at 50-50, but rewrite Lich aggro function.