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sephiroth1084
01-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Posted this a few times elsewhere, and have submitted bug reports. It's been mentioned across the forums for a while, and I've never seen a comment on it.

So, again...


For clarification, if you have an item equipped that grants an extra use of Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Turn Undead or Action Boosts, when you remove the item, you lose however many charges it granted. This would be fine if it occurred only once, but it happens each time you remove the item, and occurs each time you die as well.

So, for example, the Frenzied Berserker set bonus from Knost's Belt + Encrusted Ring from Tower of Despair grant barbarians an extra Rage per rest. If I take the belt off to give myself a Greater Heroism from a Planar Gird, I lose a Rage. If I die, I lose another Rage. If I then want to rebuff from another Planar Gird, I lose another Rage.

If I die, get raised, and die again, I just lost 2 rages, not counting any rages I was actually activating.

If a fighter is wearing Verik's Necklace, which grants extra action boosts, and is running through the Subterranean, and has to swap back and forth between his Beholder Optic Nerves, he can quickly remove all of his action boosts just from swapping items.

SisAmethyst
01-28-2012, 01:19 PM
I guess the problem there is that the information for the extra boost isn't stored as extra information but indeed just calculated on the same value. As only one value is modified all the time it is impossible to know if the action boost was removed because it was used up or because the item related to it swaped. This wouldn't probably a big issue if those boosts would be applied before using a shrine, but maybe then it would cumulate in the different direction by swapping.

Only solution would be to either store the information if the boost was used independent on the item or if this is actually too much coding it should be considered to be disabled at all till it is fixed. This way you at least wouldn't loose any charge if you have to swap it.

sephiroth1084
01-28-2012, 01:30 PM
I'm no programmer, but it seems to me that since the game is already checking to see whether you have been wearing the item since you last rested (ie. it is applying its effect), couldn't it be coded to only remove a charge if it was previously granting one?

That is:

Put on Verik's Necklace.
Nothing happens.
Shrine.
Gain 1 extra Action boost.
Take off Verik's Necklace.
Lose 1 Action Boost.
Put on Verik's Necklace.
Nothing happens.
Take off Verik's Necklace.
Nothing happens.

We'd still lose 1 extra charge for taking the things off, but we wouldn't be burning through them due to deaths removing and reapplying our equipment, or from several swaps between shrines.

akiraproject24
01-28-2012, 03:50 PM
cricket cricket

TheDearLeader
01-28-2012, 03:51 PM
This also applies to Bardic Music, and items/set bonuses that grant it.

JollySwagMan
01-28-2012, 04:30 PM
/signed , would love a fix on this!

Solmage
01-28-2012, 07:04 PM
A fix would be nice. A dev comment with 'we're thinking of a fix' would be good too.

Wraith_Sarevok
01-29-2012, 06:56 AM
Again, the tech exists because they are so obviously using it on their Cannith sets that grant extra action boosts and uncanny dodges but DON'T steal them when you remove the item.

It's just that for some reason, the devs refuse to acknowledge this bug for years or even attempt to implement the fix for it.

SisAmethyst
01-29-2012, 07:05 AM
Not sure how it is coded but as this is just a textual description that it apply that bonus but doesn't have a clicky bar (x of x uses) the counter of this boost is pretty sure directly applied to the global value of boost available and not on the item itself.

Current situation:

A = current number of boosts
B = item number of boost

1. start: A = 5, B = 1
2. use boost: A = 5 -1 = 4
3. equip item: A + B = 4 (+1) => however as the +1 only be applied after rest => A = 4
4. unequip item: A - B = 4 -1 => A = 3
5. equip item: A + B = 3 (+1) => again as the +1 only be applied after rest => A = 3
6. shrine: A = 5 (max) + B = 5 +1 = 6
7: unequip item: A = 6 -1 = 5

etc. so the first issue is that this boost is applied after shrining but subtracted even before it is applied

Possible change to have this applied before shrine:

A = current number of boosts
B = item number of boost

1. start: A = 5, B = 1
2. use boost: A = 5 -1 = 4
3. equip item: A + B = 4 +1 => effect is applied directly => A = 5
4. unequip item: A - B = 5 -1 => A = 4
5. use 4 boosts: A -4 = 0
6. equip item: A + B = 0 +1 => effect is re-applied directly => A = 1
7. use boost: A = 1 -1 = 0
8. unequip item: A - B = 0 -1 => A = -1 !!! this is a problem here, but assume it will just go min 0 => A = 0
9. equip item: A + B = 0 +1 => effect is re-applied directly => A = 1 => !!! you would have unlimited boosts this way

The later one is probably the reason why you not get nice things before the shrine...

So the only solution would be if the items itself would have a the (visible) counter of the action boost attached to them self, which then would be like as follows:

A = current number of boosts
B = item number of boost

1. start: A = 5, B = 1
2. use boost: A = 5 -1 = 4
3. equip item: A + B = 4 +1 => effect is cumulated => A = 5
4. unequip item: A - B = 5 -1 => A = 4
5. use 4 boosts: A -4 = 0
6. equip item: A + B = 0 +1 => effect is cumulated => A = 1
7. use boost: B -1 = 0 => this time substracted not from A but from the item B itself
8. unequip item: A - B = 0 -0 => A = 0
9. equip item: A + B = 0 +0 => cumulated value is ok => A = 0

So yes, would be very cool if that get fixed or at least looked into...

Angelus_dead
01-29-2012, 09:39 AM
So the only solution would be if the items itself would have a the (visible) counter of the action boost attached to them self
Nope. A better solution would be to simply go ahead and obey the D&D 3.5 rules on items which increase the number of daily uses.

By the D&D 3.5 rules, daily use abilities are counted not by how many uses are left, but how many have been used so far. You don't count down from 5 to 0; you count up from 0 to 5. Expressing the variable that way makes the items easily and automatically work correctly:
A Fighter starts at 0/5 boosts used.
He uses up the ability, and is at 5/5 used so he can't activate it again.
He equips a Kensei item and gets +2 max boosts, putting him at 5/7.
He uses boost twice more and is at 7/7, so he must stop again.
He can keep the item on at 7/7, or remove it and be at 7/5, neither making any difference.
Note that if DDO used this system, the number printed on players' screens in the icon would be (max boosts - used boosts), so they'd still see a "5" when they could activate it 5 times. It's just internally where the meaning of the number is reversed.

Produktion_Malphunktion
01-29-2012, 09:50 AM
read will pass it along.

hit_fido
01-29-2012, 12:01 PM
Nope. A better solution would be to simply go ahead and obey the D&D 3.5 rules on items which increase the number of daily uses.

Those mechanics implemented as you describe would be *perfect*.

sephiroth1084
01-29-2012, 12:08 PM
read will pass it along.
Not to be a ****, because I do appreciate the comment, but about ****ing time!

First dev comment I've seen in the two years we've had this one.

Solmage
01-29-2012, 12:23 PM
Nope. A better solution would be to simply go ahead and [....] counted not by how many uses are left, but how many have been used so far. You don't count down from 5 to 0; you count up from 0 to 5

As usual, very concise and well thought out. +1.

Barazon
01-29-2012, 12:38 PM
First the reduction needs to not occur upon death.

For taking off the item, a much simpler solution is possible, that does not require storing extra information about whether the item has been taken off since the last time you shrined, etc. All it requires is a little thought.

When the item is removed, if their current number is less than or equal to the number they would have without any equipment, the new value simply equals the old value (for example, if you normally have 5 boosts and you now have 5 or less, don't reduce it because the boosts used up came from the item first). However, if they currently have more than they would have without equipment, you have to reduce the number of boosts, but NOT necessarily by the number granted by the equipment. You reduce it by that number ONLY if they have that many bonus or more. For example, if you should normally have 5, the item grants 2, and you currently have 6, taking off the item should not put you at 4, but at 5 (the one boost you used came from the necklace). As another example, if you should have 5 but currently have 7 or more, removing the item removes 2 charges.

In programming terms:

character = the number of rages/boosts/etc the character should have, excluding equipment
bonus = the number of bonus charges granted by the item
now = the number of rages/boosts/etc the character has before removing the item
after = the numebr the character has after removing the item


if ( now <= character )
after = now;
else
after = max( character, now - bonus );

Edit: If you prefer the ternary operator:


after = ( now <= character ) ? now : max( character, now - bonus );

KookieKobold
01-30-2012, 12:39 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

LeLoric
01-30-2012, 12:43 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

This is very sad. This bug affects way more players than madstone boots not working with torches. Yet which one was decided to be fixed?

Cyr
01-30-2012, 12:45 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Fyi, many players refuse to wear items with these modifiers on them due to this bug as it makes them more of a liability then a help. Basically it makes a whole bunch of items into much worse items.

somenewnoob
01-30-2012, 12:45 PM
They're apparently too busy nerfing boots to do anything about this.

Too bad, because I made my raise dead clicky a necklace before I knew about this type of behavior on Veriks. :(

Just kind of another thing in a long line of bugs that you SHOULD be working on. Weren't we supposed to see a bunch of mini patches fixing 25-30 bugs each one?

Like election year politics around here with the empty promises.

sephiroth1084
01-30-2012, 12:50 PM
we are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!
why?

TheDearLeader
01-30-2012, 12:50 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Well Dizafrabamake some plans to fix it.

sesobebo
01-30-2012, 01:01 PM
Just wanted to state here that, this is the _only_ reason I'm not using my ToD sets.

waterboytkd
01-30-2012, 01:02 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Have to agree with the general sentiment here. This seems like it should be a higher priority than, say, Madstone Boots not working with torches. Even though it doesn't affect me atm, I'd like to see this fixed, as it affects a much larger player base, and a much larger item base. Just my two cents.

cave_diver
01-30-2012, 01:33 PM
why?

What he said....why?

Cordovan
01-30-2012, 01:35 PM
Not to be a ****, because I do appreciate the comment, but about ****ing time!

First dev comment I've seen in the two years we've had this one.

Please, we want to encourage everyone to remember that this Bug Forum effort needs everyone's help to be a success, and these kind of comments are not helpful. If we want to bring some long-lost bugs into our Known Issues list, that means they will need to be placed onto the list when they are ready to be placed there, and "about time" statements hinder this process. Same with the Bug Forums. If we want to discuss some old standbys, we need to be willing to let past history not be an indicator of future success.

danotmano1998
01-30-2012, 01:49 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Fair enough. So long as it makes the known issues list and is hopefully addressed when there is an opportunity to, that's a vast improvement.

As a player, my response would be:
We are aware that you are aware now. Please make this a known issue to be fixed in the (near) future.

There are currently no plans to use these items until then. Thanks for your feedback on our reports!

PNellesen
01-30-2012, 02:07 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.

The devs don't play clerics at all, do they? If they do, are they aware of the Radiant Servant PRE? Just checking, because I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be all over this problem if they did...

It's NOT that you lose the 2 extra boosts when you take it off. That mechanic is fine, and no different than how extra-SP items work. What's so frustrating is the fact that if we put it back on then take it back off, we lose ANOTHER 2 boosts even though we don't actually have any extra boosts remaining (they were removed the first time we took the item off).

Is the coding for these kinds of items so much different from extra-sp items that they can't be made to work the same way? Imagine if your casters lost 200SP EVERY SINGLE TIME they removed or swapped out their archmagi items, regardless of how much sp they had left...

Lifespawn
01-30-2012, 02:59 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

This just invalidates a ton of equipment if you need to wear one of these for a set pre bonus your screwed no silver flame no gh neck clicky or belt in some cases no optic nerves forget about skill checks with the neck slot.

Getting disjuncted roasts you too some people say deaths take them away it's just crazy for a fix to not even be planned.

Auran82
01-30-2012, 03:08 PM
why?

It's not a bug that helps the players and they can't sell it in the store.

I bet if you got extra boosts/rages every time you equipped the items it would have been fixed :D

Vormaerin
01-30-2012, 03:57 PM
Just kind of another thing in a long line of bugs that you SHOULD be working on. Weren't we supposed to see a bunch of mini patches fixing 25-30 bugs each one?

Like election year politics around here with the empty promises.

Gosh, we get a note saying that 2012 will have lot of mini patches for bugs and January isn't even over and you are already making a breach of promise claim because there was only one such patch so far?

I suspect that he means "no one is currently working on it and we aren't adding it to the active list until the existing work is done" rather than "Nah, we like that bug and are keeping it."

BladeTricks
01-30-2012, 04:13 PM
It's not a bug that helps the players and they can't sell it in the store.

I bet if you got extra boosts/rages every time you equipped the items it would have been fixed :D

I heard there's this new 'sploit where you can get infinite action boosts/turn undeads/etc. with some tricky gear swapping.................




http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/DarkKnightXJ/Emoticons/th_whistling.gif

Riggs
01-30-2012, 06:21 PM
It's not a bug that helps the players and they can't sell it in the store.

I bet if you got extra boosts/rages every time you equipped the items it would have been fixed :D

Like Minos helm healing you 20 hp every time you took it off and put it back on?

That would be a great bug for players...oh wait it was fixed very quickly when it happened.

Riggs
01-30-2012, 06:25 PM
This is very sad. This bug affects way more players than madstone boots not working with torches. Yet which one was decided to be fixed?

Shade doesnt have a SD or Kensai apparently.

(He does have 4-5 barbs however...cause they are better)

Carpone
01-30-2012, 06:43 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!
Can you explain what raises a bug to the level of 'working on it'? While losing rages with the Frenzied Berserker set is limited to Barbarians, the Kensei set affects many classes and races with action boosts: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, Favored Soul, Artificer, Human and Half-Elf.

And to put the surprise around the dev response in perspective: This bug has been around since ToD first went live (2.5 years ago) and this is actually the first time a developer has acknowledged it, despite the numerous threads and bug reports created on the subject. Glad to see a response, but disappointed it doesn't 'make the cut'.

sephiroth1084
01-30-2012, 09:13 PM
Please, we want to encourage everyone to remember that this Bug Forum effort needs everyone's help to be a success, and these kind of comments are not helpful. If we want to bring some long-lost bugs into our Known Issues list, that means they will need to be placed onto the list when they are ready to be placed there, and "about time" statements hinder this process. Same with the Bug Forums. If we want to discuss some old standbys, we need to be willing to let past history not be an indicator of future success.
That's fair, and I shouldn't have been so, uh, "vocal" over my frustration with this going 2 and a half years without comment.

That said, the following response that followed my post, about how there aren't even plans to start addressing this doesn't help convince me that past history isn't a good indicator here of future success. Sure, my comment preceded Kookie's reply, which is a good thing, because I would have definitely left a post worthy of infraction points if both sentiments had been expressed together.

Do the devs understand how incredibly frustrating it is for you to release a bunch of items as new must-have gear that are rather badly bugged (non-functional would have been better), then release more items using the same broken mechanics, and to never acknowledge the issue, despite numerous reports and posts, for over two years, while we see the team screwing around with stuff that isn't broken, or falling head-over-heels to fix minor stuff that benefits the players, and when we finally get a reply, it says that nothing is going to be done about it in the foreseeable future?

Auran82
01-30-2012, 10:22 PM
That's fair, and I shouldn't have been so, uh, "vocal" over my frustration with this going 2 and a half years without comment.

That said, the following response that followed my post, about how there aren't even plans to start addressing this doesn't help convince me that past history isn't a good indicator here of future success. Sure, my comment preceded Kookie's reply, which is a good thing, because I would have definitely left a post worthy of infraction points if both sentiments had been expressed together.

Do the devs understand how incredibly frustrating it is for you to release a bunch of items as new must-have gear that are rather badly bugged (non-functional would have been better), then release more items using the same broken mechanics, and to never acknowledge the issue, despite numerous reports and posts, for over two years, while we see the team screwing around with stuff that isn't broken, or falling head-over-heels to fix minor stuff that benefits the players, and when we finally get a reply, it says that nothing is going to be done about it in the foreseeable future?

What we learn from this is that we shouldn't report beneficial bugs, as they will take precedence over things that affect us that we really want fixed.

Also, they have known about this for ages, he epic staff of Nat gann was changed after player feedback that having extra uncanny boosts on a weapon was a bad idea due to this bug.

Wraith_Sarevok
01-30-2012, 10:29 PM
Yeah well we don't want them to remove the extra rages and action boosts granted by these items.

We want them to stop stealing from us when we want to equip something else.

arjiwan
01-31-2012, 03:41 AM
Please, we want to encourage everyone to remember that this Bug Forum effort needs everyone's help to be a success, and these kind of comments are not helpful. If we want to bring some long-lost bugs into our Known Issues list, that means they will need to be placed onto the list when they are ready to be placed there, and "about time" statements hinder this process. Same with the Bug Forums. If we want to discuss some old standbys, we need to be willing to let past history not be an indicator of future success.

I agree that it is not helpful. But to be fair, for now, nothing is.



Shade doesnt have a SD or Kensai apparently.

(He does have 4-5 barbs however...cause they are better)

I understand where you are coming from. The idea of the big guys of the forums must make noise in order a bug to be fixed.

But to be fair, I saw Shade commenting regarding this issue and wanted this also to be fixed.

jejeba86
01-31-2012, 07:19 AM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

So, devise a plan.
Seriously, you're underestimating the size of this bug.

Hokiewa
01-31-2012, 07:41 AM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Why, because it's fixed! Seriously, this is a bizarre answer.

Sarisa
01-31-2012, 07:43 AM
I am also disappointed that this is not going to be addressed. Many items I do not consider using at all because of this issue.

Razcar
01-31-2012, 08:24 AM
There is equipment I have that I don't use because of this bug

If you cannot fix, if it is too complicated, please take this effect (it's not it it doesn't work, but that it works negatively by eating charges and boosts) out of the game and replace it with something else. Or just substituting it with nothing would acually be better than how detrimentally the effect works now.

BurningDownTheHouse
01-31-2012, 09:03 AM
I am also disappointed that this is not going to be addressed. Many items I do not consider using at all because of this issue.

I think that 'disappointed' is a bit of an understatement atm.

A bit of history:
When ToD was released the functionality of items that grant extra ability uses was the same as extra mana items work today. Meaning that you could use the extra granted benefit and then remove the item without loosing anything. Apparently, this was deemed overpowered and the mechanic was "fixed" to be the one we know and love today.

This was really easy to break. It's more than really easy to fix. You have the logic needed posted in multiple formats in this very thread.

This is a big issue, with far reaching consequences for a lot of builds.
It should be escalated as such ASAP.

DrawingGuy
01-31-2012, 10:38 AM
As illustrated, the current issue is how any items that grant extra uses subtract their uses when removed, but don't re-add them when reapplied due to the fact that you need to rest first (or otherwise it would potentially create unlimited uses).

However the solution is rediculously simple: Don't have the uses removed when removing the item. Yes, that means that someone can equip an item, rest, then swap it off. But so what? They have the item, and thus should be granted the use. But by doing this, you instantly fix the problem with EVERY glitched item without granting unlimited uses. And I would think this coding would be very simple for the devs to apply.

So yes, I know you don't plan on spending time with it, but could you please tell me why applying that is not worth your time?

danotmano1998
01-31-2012, 10:49 AM
Turbine, we the players are strongly of the opinion that this should have a higher priority than it does now..

Perhaps a spot on the known issues list, along with some time spent fixing it would be a better use of time than fixing madstone boots, (Which weren't broken in the first place!!), or Cuddly wuddly wittle snuggle pets that have no use.

ToD is a high level raid with superlative gear. (In some cases.)
Please take a look at this long-standing bug?

Thanks!

sephiroth1084
01-31-2012, 11:27 AM
Examples of things I can't do because of this bug:



My barbarian cannot supply himself with Greater Heroism, because removing his Knost's Belt removes one of his rages, and removing his Alchemist's Pendant removes one of his Damage Boosts and Sprint Boosts.
My barbarian cannot supply himself with Jump, because using Morah's Belt similarly burns rages.
He gets heavily penalized in quests with sporadic beholders (such as when clearing through the Sub), because every time I swap to either my Beholder Optic Nerves or Silver Flame Talisman, I lose 2 action boosts on top of the 20 HP I'm dropping.
My paladin can't make use of any of the extra turning items, because they all exist in slots that I would be swapping items in and out for (trinket for Voice when optional XP is coming up, for example).
My rogue has to choose between having GH available or getting an extra Haste, Damage and Skill Boost with Verik's Necklace--can't have both.

The list is fairly long.

Cetus
01-31-2012, 03:49 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

This has been a pretty darn serious issue for a while now. Why do you guys recode the way madstone works based on an inconvenience while casting torches, but you can't recode something a bit more fundamentally broken such as this?

I hope you realize how significant the detriment here is. Barbs lose rages, kensei's lose haste boosts, for NOTHING.

Cordovan
01-31-2012, 04:06 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

Lifespawn
01-31-2012, 04:08 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

at least it will be on the list it's been ignored too long

danotmano1998
01-31-2012, 04:08 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

Thank you!!!

I think that's all anyone can ask at this point. Kudos for your attention to our concerns!

Wraith_Sarevok
01-31-2012, 04:18 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

Great news!

This bug is super-annoying and nice to know that it will be fixed 'sooner' rather than never. :)

DrawingGuy
01-31-2012, 04:25 PM
So I'm curious to what a dev thinks of the simple non-game breaking fix I proposed? The only concern would be to set the current ability amount two what the base is + current items when a character rests in case a member rests with higher uses than what their current gear allows (ie rests with equipment not equipped but had the bonus applied from last rest that they never used). However as far as I can tell, that is already how it works... so it'd just be a line change on the items that currently subtract when unequipped... Hell, they should be able to even comment code that line with no other changes for a 5 second fix.

Havok.cry
01-31-2012, 04:28 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

+1 if I could

Great news thank you :)

Auran82
01-31-2012, 04:35 PM
at least it will be on the list it's been ignored too long

Now it can be ignored in plain sight :D

Autolycus
01-31-2012, 05:10 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

Why the #@$% not? This is a significant bug!


The devs don't play clerics at all, do they? If they do, are they aware of the Radiant Servant PRE? Just checking, because I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be all over this problem if they did...

It's NOT that you lose the 2 extra boosts when you take it off. That mechanic is fine, and no different than how extra-SP items work. What's so frustrating is the fact that if we put it back on then take it back off, we lose ANOTHER 2 boosts even though we don't actually have any extra boosts remaining (they were removed the first time we took the item off).

Is the coding for these kinds of items so much different from extra-sp items that they can't be made to work the same way? Imagine if your casters lost 200SP EVERY SINGLE TIME they removed or swapped out their archmagi items, regardless of how much sp they had left...

I think you got it right, none of the devs play clerics.

They STILL haven't fixed the Radiant Burst targeting bug, even though a dev stated (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3140572&postcount=57) it should/would be fixed to work regardless of targeting over a year and a half ago.

Lifespawn
01-31-2012, 05:27 PM
Now it can be ignored in plain sight :D

yes but now they can't claim ignorance

sephiroth1084
02-01-2012, 12:21 AM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.
Appreciated.

LrdSlvrhnd
02-01-2012, 01:13 AM
Again, the tech exists because they are so obviously using it on their Cannith sets that grant extra action boosts and uncanny dodges but DON'T steal them when you remove the item.

Well, the Alchemist's Pendant certainly steals bard songs, unless it was stealth-fixed in a recent patch but not retroactively (admittedly, I didn't look at her action boosts, but swapping in and out made her song count go down, down, down, to a burnin' ring of fire.

Auran82
02-01-2012, 03:56 AM
yes but now they can't claim ignorance

Exactly, they can just put it there and hope people stop asking about it.

And if someone does, they can just say, "We know about it, but don't have an ETA on when it will be fixed, however, we did change some other item that was working perfectly, because someone was too stupid to use it in an intelligent manner"

cave_diver
02-01-2012, 05:52 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.


So now that this will be put on the issues list.....how do we as players get this bumped higher up on the priority list.

I understand certain bugs (bugs that benefit players i.e: exploits) get fixed ASAP, and performance issues as well, but from a player point of view, bugs that seem to hinder builds to items, feats not working as intended seem to get placed on the bottom of the pile and take forever to get fixed.

I wont bring up old issues because I keep reading from maj that that was the OLD Turbine. So how do we get the NEW Turbine to prioritize this?


Do we spam the bug reporting feature? Spam the forums? Is this the only way to light a fire under QA?

Produktion_Malphunktion
02-01-2012, 09:10 PM
Why the #@$% not? This is a significant bug!




Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

JollySwagMan
02-01-2012, 09:11 PM
We'll be adding this to the Known Issues list for Lamannia soon, and add it to the live KI list when we next update it. The interest in this particular bug is noted, but we're not in a position to give a time frame for when this bug will be pursued and fixed.

Thanks for the update! Even if it is just added to the official Known Issues list for the time being, having it there will help prevent some players from having their DDO experience mysteriously affected by the bug.

Kudos!

sirgog
02-01-2012, 09:13 PM
Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

MajM - driving Clerics and Fighters to drink since 2012!

But seriously, if fixing this will have horrendous side effects - delay the fix. But it is a bad bug.

As a workaround, would adding another copy of the enhancements that add Action Boosts with unreachable prerequisites (say prereq of Ftr30), then having these items grant those enhancements work? There are other items in game that grant enhancements that function properly (Daggertooth's Belt etc)

JollySwagMan
02-01-2012, 09:16 PM
Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

Appreciate it! Again, I'm just glad to see this added to Known Issues for the moment. Once it makes it on there, we don't need to keep bug reporting it, right?

Produktion_Malphunktion
02-01-2012, 09:21 PM
Appreciate it! Again, I'm just glad to see this added to Known Issues for the moment. Once it makes it on there, we don't need to keep bug reporting it, right?

right.

Havok.cry
02-01-2012, 10:17 PM
Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

Good, thats your job :) even if people whine that its not soon enough or whatever, a playable game is more important :) Thankyou.

Autolycus
02-01-2012, 11:10 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.

Thanks for your reports about this!


Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

Mal, I'm very happy that the issue will be examined and added to the known issues list.

The snippet of my response that you quoted was in response to KookieKobold's post that "We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.". I wanted to express my disappointment that there were no plans to address an important issue that's been known for years. Not to mention it not even being on the KI list. Indeed, if not for the OP, I'm sure there would still be no plans to address it.

But let's be fair, I didn't say it was simple or that a fix had to be rushed out that might break things. Indeed, as a software engineer myself, I would prefer it if fixes and new content were thoroughly tested.

bbqzor
02-01-2012, 11:14 PM
As a workaround, would adding another copy of the enhancements that add Action Boosts ... then having these items grant those enhancements work? There are other items in game that grant enhancements that function properly (Daggertooth's Belt etc)
This.

Wand Maximizing on the Epic Wands is the poster child for a possible fix here. It puts "Wand Maximizing" right onto your enhancements page straight up, right category and everything showing advanced past the other levels as it should, and updates as the item goes on or off.

Having Boost/Use related items do the same thing would be phenomenal.

I do realize that with the Enhancement overhaul coming, such a thing would likely be wasted between now and then. However, getting the idea out for possible inclusion at that time is another thing entirely.

If possible, maybe the new system can strike this bug down by incorporating the wand maximizing code and become more powerful than we could possibly imagine? Thanks.

Entelech
02-01-2012, 11:22 PM
This is very sad. This bug affects way more players than madstone boots not working with torches. Yet which one was decided to be fixed?

THIS is why nobody should listen to folks like (insert name of obnoxious melee player that Maj called out in a thread about the madstone borking.)

Auran82
02-02-2012, 12:10 AM
THIS is why nobody should listen to folks like (insert name of obnoxious melee player that Maj called out in a thread about the madstone borking.)

You wont need to worry about them listening to that particular player for some time by the looks of it.

Thrudh
02-02-2012, 12:16 AM
You wont need to worry about them listening to that particular player for some time by the looks of it.

Why? He rage-quit again?

sephiroth1084
02-02-2012, 12:44 AM
THIS is why nobody should listen to folks like (insert name of obnoxious melee player that Maj called out in a thread about the madstone borking.)
Keep this inane stuff out of an otherwise relevant thread.

Torch/Madstone interaction wasn't fixed because Shade called it out, it was fixed because the devs wanted people to play their new baby--challenges--which features a lot of torch-using. That they want to fix Madstone, but not any of the other problems with challenges, like how they really don't work for non-self-sufficient characters, severely favor casters over melees, buggy AI...there's a long list.

Wraith_Sarevok
02-02-2012, 12:50 AM
That they want to fix Madstone, but not any of the other problems with challenges, like how they really don't work for non-self-sufficient characters, severely favor casters over melees, buggy AI...there's a long list.

You forgot "not fun." :D

Auran82
02-02-2012, 12:57 AM
Why? He rage-quit again?

Not rage quit as such.

Produktion_Malphunktion
02-02-2012, 06:57 AM
Keep this inane stuff out of an otherwise relevant thread.

Torch/Madstone interaction wasn't fixed because Shade called it out, it was fixed because the devs wanted people to play their new baby--challenges--which features a lot of torch-using. That they want to fix Madstone, but not any of the other problems with challenges, like how they really don't work for non-self-sufficient characters, severely favor casters over melees, buggy AI...there's a long list.


What a ...strange outlook. You are right tho, the 700 bugs or so we fixed in challenges we didn't really need to do. :::facepalm:::
But this thread is not about that issue, or your tinfoil hat. One warning, back on topic or I lock it.

TheDearLeader
02-02-2012, 07:00 AM
What a ...strange outlook. You are right tho, the 700 bugs or so we fixed in challenges we didn't really need to do. :::facepalm:::
But this thread is not about that issue, or your tinfoil hat. One warning, back on topic or I lock it.

I see I'm not the only one that couldn't sleep. :) Morning. Thanks for the Destruction/I.Destruction stacking fix, btw. Tested it on Lamma yesterday.

sephiroth1084
02-02-2012, 07:45 AM
What a ...strange outlook. You are right tho, the 700 bugs or so we fixed in challenges we didn't really need to do. :::facepalm:::
But this thread is not about that issue, or your tinfoil hat. One warning, back on topic or I lock it.
I meant that adjusting challenges to be accessible to melees seems paramount to adjusting Madstone Boots to work in challenges.

I'm aware that different people are probably working on the two, but if we want to talk about the Itemization crew, there are so many items in the game that just don't work as they are supposed to (this thread, for example), that screwing around with an item that is highly sought-after rather boggles the mind.

sephiroth1084
02-02-2012, 07:55 AM
I see I'm not the only one that couldn't sleep. :) Morning.
No, you're not the only one.

Glad to hear Destruction and Improved Destruction are working as described now.

Thrudh
02-02-2012, 08:42 AM
the other problems with challenges, like how they really don't work for non-self-sufficient characters, severely favor casters over melees, buggy AI...there's a long list.

As an aside, I've discovered that archers are actually the best for challenges... Ranged combat, IPS for multiple targets, never run out of SP like a caster can on the longer challenges. And I can take down the lich with manyshot a lot faster than I can with my caster.

danotmano1998
02-02-2012, 09:06 AM
Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.

Thank you Maj.
Hugely appreciated!

*looks back at his bank space*
"Soon, my pretties, Thooooooon!"

Cyr
02-02-2012, 09:07 AM
I think this comes down to priorities and how there seems to be a disconnect between the player base and development when it comes to item tinkering.

Madstone boots = single years old item that apparently someone decided to muck around with the basic powers of (ie coding work that is similar in departments to fixing the bug that this thread focuses on) to nerf the item (not challenge stuff the rest of the changes)

Items effected by the subject of this thread = dozens? of items that have a single bug making the items much worse for players that seem to all share the exact same coding issue and which have new items still being put out with this same issue

IDK, to me the more recent items that are more plentiful in number and where a bug hurts the players is the no brainer priority over the single years old item that apparently someone thought years later should be messed around with in a manner that hurt players.

Cetus
02-02-2012, 10:21 AM
What a ...strange outlook. You are right tho, the 700 bugs or so we fixed in challenges we didn't really need to do. :::facepalm:::
But this thread is not about that issue, or your tinfoil hat. One warning, back on topic or I lock it.

Well, you must understand the significance of this bug in face of some of the bugs in challenges.

I mean look, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229013

I started this thread exactly 2 years ago regarding the same issue that only just NOW got some dev attention. Challenges weren't even released yet, forget about fixing their bugs.

I give you ample amount of credit for all the great stuff you delivered in the past months, but its not going to mask the infuriating decision to change madstone boots, before even attempting to get after this bug that impacts our gameplay quite a bit for years.

I'm not bashing your competence, I'm just trying to choose my words in such a manner that it paints the picture we see as players. It probably would be easier to justify the lack of any fix for this bug if the madstone thing wasn't announced. But, come on man, you guys are putting loads of thought into an item that needed to be kept alone, and can't even address something like this. This is the part where people start to get snappy.

Riggs
02-02-2012, 10:39 AM
There is equipment I have that I don't use because of this bug

If you cannot fix, if it is too complicated, please take this effect (it's not it it doesn't work, but that it works negatively by eating charges and boosts) out of the game and replace it with something else. Or just substituting it with nothing would acually be better than how detrimentally the effect works now.

Indeed.

Or just something simple like a +1 to hit and damage - useful, not OP, and no more eating action boosts.

somenewnoob
02-02-2012, 10:42 AM
Indeed.

Or just something simple like a +1 to hit and damage - useful, not OP, and no more eating action boosts.

Aye. I tend to agree with this. I love the extra action boost thing, but if you can't figure it out, just give us a little something else instead.

As it is now losing almost 40% of your boosts if you swap to something and then put it back on is not so awesome.

Meat-Head
02-02-2012, 11:19 AM
Just one more person saying that the boosts thing needs to be fixed while madstones need to be left alone.

:)

Also, I dislike the fact that there not even plans to fix it. But, I DO appreciate Kookie's honesty about that fact I guess.

Monkey_Archer
02-02-2012, 11:41 AM
I'm just trying to choose my words in such a manner that it paints the picture we see as players. It probably would be easier to justify the lack of any fix for this bug if the madstone thing wasn't announced. But, come on man, you guys are putting loads of thought into an item that needed to be kept alone, and can't even address something like this.

In the eyes of myself as a player, all I care about is the work around.... If a bug can be worked around easily enough then its not a big problem for me and deserves less dev attention then bugs that can't be worked around.

The work around for madstone: Just don't wear them boots in challenges :rolleyes: (seems easy enough, annoying but I can live with that)
The work around for boost increasing items: Just don't wear them at all... :confused:

Meat-Head
02-02-2012, 11:43 AM
In the eyes of myself as a player, all I care about is the work around.... If a bug can be worked around easily enough then its not a big problem for me and deserves less dev attention then bugs that can't be worked around.

The work around for madstone: Just don't wear them boots in challenges :rolleyes: (seems easy enough, annoying but I can live with that)
The work around for boost increasing items: Just don't wear them at all... :confused:

^This.

Cetus
02-02-2012, 01:04 PM
In the eyes of myself as a player, all I care about is the work around.... If a bug can be worked around easily enough then its not a big problem for me and deserves less dev attention then bugs that can't be worked around.

The work around for madstone: Just don't wear them boots in challenges :rolleyes: (seems easy enough, annoying but I can live with that)
The work around for boost increasing items: Just don't wear them at all... :confused:

Thats precisely it.

Choosing when to wear the boots was the price at which you received your benefits.

somenewnoob
02-02-2012, 01:30 PM
In the eyes of myself as a player, all I care about is the work around.... If a bug can be worked around easily enough then its not a big problem for me and deserves less dev attention then bugs that can't be worked around.

The work around for madstone: Just don't wear them boots in challenges :rolleyes: (seems easy enough, annoying but I can live with that)
The work around for boost increasing items: Just don't wear them at all... :confused:

This is a post that I wish I would have made!

THIS.

Kaldaka
02-02-2012, 02:20 PM
...
The work around for madstone: Just don't wear them boots in challenges :rolleyes: (seems easy enough, annoying but I can live with that)
The work around for boost increasing items: Just don't wear them at all... :confused:

Monkey got my +1 here ... exactly the point.

As players what we see is this: If the items in question in this thread caused or were an issue in challenges, then they would be fixed. But since they're not, they get back burner status, forget about the fact that this was an 'unknown' known issue for YEARS?? :confused:

MrWizard
02-02-2012, 07:25 PM
We are aware of this issue but there are currently no plans for working on it.


Thanks for your reports about this!

yea one of the devs a year ago or so finally said it was a database error/issue and he would look into it if it was easily fixable or not.

guess not.

time to kill my tod set, lost the 2 ac, and be able to use my necklace slot again since this is a non fixable 4 year old bug..sometimes the coding makes it very hard to fix things like this, sometimes not.

anatomyofaghost
02-02-2012, 08:32 PM
Anything with potential far reaching effects like this fix ( I know it looks simple...my QA brain sees a matrix of pure evil) will not make it past me. So, blame me if you wish. I'm trying to keep the game space as stable as possible...including known issues...leading up to the launch. This issue as of this second is not in U13. We will re-examine it for other patches between now and the expansion.


I have the sneaking suspicion that an awful lot of game features that seem simple to us are in fact so absurdly convoluted *cough HANDWRAPS cough* that the new QA team (bless their Koboldy souls) would probably spend weeks trying to untangle the mess if they started frigging with them.

Players seem to have a really hard time understanding the dev logic with the direction the game has taken, especially when some seemingly completely arbitary changes get made (Madstone) which obviously demands QA and dev time and yet stuff like the action point devouring end game items that people have been complaining about for more than 2 years wasn't even on the official list...

I have been awful quick to complain in the past about balance features and yes this game has some really annoying and persistent bugs but I *do* appreciate the effort you and the dev team are putting in and honestly I'm constantly surprised and impressed by your frankness and honesty when it comes to your work. Takes courage to throw yourselves to the worgs.

You sir, have (soul)stones. Kudos.

I think though if you and other devs were throwing us a bone a bit more often as to why some things can't be looked at like the quick explanation you gave us above that it would go a long way to placating the masses. So much has been ignored in the past that there's a pretty heavy cynical undertone to the forums and it's easy to get swept up in it.

"We'll look at it" sounds a helluva lot better than deafening silence.