PDA

View Full Version : A quick way to give melees a boost in epics . . .



grodon9999
01-18-2012, 08:51 AM
Compared to how powerful casters are . . . this is not OP at all.

De-nerf stat-damagers in epic. let us get mobs in a helpless state faster and keep them that way. 0 CON doesn't kill anymore, you still need to beat down all the HP.

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 08:57 AM
Compared to how powerful casters are . . . this is not OP at all.

De-nerf stat-damagers in epic. let us get mobs in a helpless state faster and keep them that way. 0 CON doesn't kill anymore, you still need to beat down all the HP.

This would give us rapier and scimitar users a boost too...

Since you nerfed Puncturing and Enfeebling, and changed Banishing and Smiting, there hasn't been as much use for the big crit-range (but low crit multiplier) weapons...

It would be nice to make rapiers and scimitars somewhat more competitive with khopeshes again.

budalic
01-18-2012, 08:58 AM
Compared to how powerful casters are . . . this is not OP at all.

De-nerf stat-damagers in epic. let us get mobs in a helpless state faster and keep them that way. 0 CON doesn't kill anymore, you still need to beat down all the HP.

I think main reason this isn't likely to be implemented is because that would make a single class of weapons very overpowered.

Though, I'm all for it - denerf stat damagers, perhaps even vorpals (only issue here is that CC scimies have vorpal, and there is that ring too...); put life-stealing back into crafting - and balance them all on being even with each other.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 08:59 AM
Compared to how powerful casters are . . . this is not OP at all.

De-nerf stat-damagers in epic. let us get mobs in a helpless state faster and keep them that way. 0 CON doesn't kill anymore, you still need to beat down all the HP.

For what was it.. 2 years, melee were over powered compared to casters even though if you follow PnP, casters are the more powerful of the bunch.

So in maybe 2 years... Melees have only been crying for a few months.

BTW, range physical (as compared to range magical) has been crying since release.

And quite frankly I really don't see any need to boost melee dps. I do see a need for an AC pass, however. Those mobs get in close, that caster is toast. Not so much for a melee where that is in the job description.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 09:00 AM
Vorpals to, they need the HP limit raised but I'm not sure what it should be. 1000 HP is too low, at that the only vorpals worth using at all are the pink ones.

Give us a "Vorpal Weekend" or something where the HP limit is lifted on Vorpals, we can run a bunch of EDAs or something and see if melees can come close to casters in kills.

My bet is still on the casters :)

voodoogroves
01-18-2012, 09:02 AM
Compared to how powerful casters are . . . this is not OP at all.

De-nerf stat-damagers in epic. let us get mobs in a helpless state faster and keep them that way. 0 CON doesn't kill anymore, you still need to beat down all the HP.

Even if you kept the limit on orange named, etc. it would still be helpful.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 09:07 AM
For what was it.. 2 years, melee were over powered compared to casters even though if you follow PnP, casters are the more powerful of the bunch.

So in maybe 2 years... Melees have only been crying for a few months.

So youre solution to a dumb in-game situation is to tell people to shut up? That's smart.

Turbine's past slowness to react to things is not a good rationalization for keeping the game in a silly state. You shouldn't enable them and give them excuses. Giving casters insta-kills at the same time the ability is REMOVED from most melees was a very bad call on the part of Turbine and they should have their feet held to the fire for this silly decision.



BTW, range physical (as compared to range magical) has been crying since release.

So? Start another thread. heck, there's a pretty good one right now going on about that, take it up over there.



And quite frankly I really don't see any need to boost melee dps.

This doesn't boost real DPS, it boosts trash-killing ability. And regarding your second point . . .



I do see a need for an AC pass, however. Those mobs get in close, that caster is toast. Not so much for a melee where that is in the job description.

I absolutely agree that AC should remain relevant in ALL content, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

somenewnoob
01-18-2012, 09:15 AM
Definitely a good idea. Also think vorpals need to be un-nerfed, not back to where they were but a good bit better than they are now. Either give the vorpal effect some type of save, or have a 10% chance on a natural 20 to insta kill, raise the hp damage done on a vorpal to 500-1000 when no insta kill......something to make them more useful.

Sarisa
01-18-2012, 09:17 AM
This would give "support DPS" people more options to use. Increased options and strategies. I'm all for it.

Lalangamena
01-18-2012, 09:17 AM
So youre solution to a dumb in-game situation is to tell people to shut up? That's smart.

Turbine's past slowness to react to things is not a good rationalization for keeping the game in a silly state. You shouldn't enable them and give them excuses. Giving casters insta-kills at the same time the ability is REMOVED from most melees was a very bad call on the part of Turbine and they should have their feet held to the fire for this silly decision.



So? Start another thread. heck, there's a pretty good one right now going on about that, take it up over there.



This doesn't boost real DPS, it boosts trash-killing ability. And regarding your second point . . .



I absolutely agree that AC should remain relevant in ALL content, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

make melles to have AOE CC

add enhancement to stunning fist and trip to be AOE
or add enhancements to cleave tobe tripping or stunning.
or add another feat "stunning cleave" or "cleaving trip" or whatever

this will make melee characters have some kind of CC viable for epics

Scraap
01-18-2012, 09:21 AM
Weakening of Enfeebling - AC gap closure
Maladroit of Bone breaking - to-hit gap closure
Wounding of Puncturing - damage gap closure

I could see benefits.

Avidus
01-18-2012, 09:32 AM
Regardless of what is done to stat-damaging weapons Vorpals need to change.

The reason banishing / smiting / disruption are still being used is because of the 4d6 damage per swing in addition to the insta-kill chance. Vorpal did not get this extra damage, yet the same hit point cap was placed on it and the same bonus damage was given to it.

Vorpals need to either have 4d6 bleed type damage added to every swing (not ideal, vampires etc) or have the 1000 hit point cap raised to 2500~5000 and the bonus damage raised to 250~500

Vorpal is an iconic weapon effect that needs to find some balance. As it stands now, unless you get vorpal from the cove scimitars or the epic chaosblade just don't bother... its a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 09:33 AM
make melles to have AOE CC

add enhancement to stunning fist and trip to be AOE
or add enhancements to cleave tobe tripping or stunning.
or add another feat "stunning cleave" or "cleaving trip" or whatever

this will make melee characters have some kind of CC viable for epics

it's called Intimidate, but they'd need to make AC work for it to actually be valuable in epics.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 09:38 AM
So youre solution to a dumb in-game situation is to tell people to shut up? That's smart.

I'm glad you think it is and we agree.

Now that both of us have the smart ass cracks out of our system (and you are correct, I do apologize.)

If you don't remember my past stand on the issue at large, I have always been against mass immunities, esp those that didn't make sense. Wizard King. Why shouldn't he be able to be tripped? Can't be stunned? Sure, but tripped? Unless he has something like "levitate" placed on him, no. Trip and end that existence.

Now the thing is, casters have a near limited supply of power. Melees have an unlimited comparative. Melees can go for as long as their weapons hold out, let alone they get enhancements for making certain their weapons get damaged less. Casters don't have anything that compares to that. Let alone if melees actually got tired, all that would happen is that they'd chug a pot of lesser restore and continue.

So, lets remove the stat damage from having a save on epics... quite frankly while not as over powered due to the can't kill, they are still quite powerful.
So maybe... any prefex stat damager gets their hardness cut by half.
Any suffix stat damager gets their HP cut by 25%-33%.

Melees have two options open to them. 1. pull out another weapon, 2. use an anvil. Casters don't have option 1, but do have option 2 in the form of pots. That should even it out a bit. Yes anvils don't drop often, but weapons are prolific comparative to pots.

And just so you know, I've got more melee than I do caster.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 09:39 AM
it's called Intimidate, but they'd need to make AC work for it to actually be valuable in epics.

Actually I'd be fine with an arching trip attempt. That falls into what I call fair play. If mobs can, we can, and vice versa. Hobs do a mass trip all the bloody time, let alone through doors. In my opinion, Improved trip should be an arc in conjunction with the rest of what it does.

somenewnoob
01-18-2012, 09:42 AM
What about if they put vorpal back to where it used to be, but you only had 10 charges per rest or something? Maybe more with "greater vorpal" .

Just throwing it out there! Really I'm for just about anything that will bring melee's more in line with casters as far as killing things goes!

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 09:47 AM
The reason banishing / smiting / disruption are still being used is because of the 4d6 damage per swing in addition to the insta-kill chance. Vorpal did not get this extra damage, yet the same hit point cap was placed on it and the same bonus damage was given to it.

Which really should have reduced its market value to a +4, but that wasn't done. Let alone I don't think making it a +4 value should be done to something so iconic. I'd only say a +3 myself given how restrictive it is, but a +3 I think is where prefix stat damaging is.

How about 2d6 untyped every swing, with 20 still being the kicker? Sort of like a one way vicious.

Or, on any crit like you suggested it does 500, fort save for 250. 20 still being the auto 1,000.

Vorpal as is, is NOT worth market value of +5.

licho
01-18-2012, 11:04 AM
/Signed.

This will give melee edge, and also help not all out dps toons to contribute.

I also support raising HP limit on vorpals.

ArcaneMelee
01-18-2012, 11:14 AM
I always thought it odd that the update where they removed the immunity to insta-kill spells they hit vorpal with a major nerf.

If the problem was that everyone was insta-killing trash mobs, why let casters do it?

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 11:23 AM
If the problem was that everyone was insta-killing trash mobs, why let casters do it?

Resource expenditure and character building/work.

Any ninny can pick up a vorpal and roll a 20. Not every caster can get a DC high enough to kill reliably.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 11:51 AM
I don't think stat damagers should work as well in epics like they do in the rest of the content (excluding bosses of course), but perhaps they could work like they do on Frost Giants where only every other or every third hit nets a -1 (apply appropriate stat here). I'm not sure how puncturing/enfeebling/bone breaking works on them because I have never bothered to try them out, but if it is the same mechanic I would add that those effects only work half as well on epic mobs, i.e. 1-3 stat loss vs 1-6.

I still think vorpal should work on a sliding scale with an enhancement boost available like I outlined here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4052648&postcount=36)

somenewnoob
01-18-2012, 12:01 PM
Resource expenditure and character building/work.

Any ninny can pick up a vorpal and roll a 20. Not every caster can get a DC high enough to kill reliably.

Aye, this is true.

Maybe tie the chance to instakill on a 20 to some type of DC based on BAB? That way some wiz who decides to pick up a vorpal would have a very low chance to instakill on a 20, but the capped fighter who had a vorpal would have a high DC on his vorpal attempt and a better chance to kill? And the mob would still have a chance to save?

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 12:04 PM
Resource expenditure and character building/work.

Any ninny can pick up a vorpal and roll a 20. Not every caster can get a DC high enough to kill reliably.

Yes they can. A 42 DC is easy to get and can insta-kill many trash mobs in epics with a simple enervate scroll. hell in ELOB mine landed her finger more often than not on the non-paladins and the toon's maybe 6 weeks old.

DragonMageT
01-18-2012, 12:27 PM
De-nerf stat-damagers in epic is a waste of time, it will only slightly bring melee toons back inline with casters.

This is how it will go:

-3 con...-4 con...FOD
party chat: you little #@#$%

Vorpals need to be put back the way there were (excluding orange named, of course).
No HP Limit.

1. it's no more overpowered then any one of the caster spells (FOD, Wail, Powerword kill, circle of death, implosion or destruction).
But, but they have 2 of them (one in each hand, it's to easy)...Casters have 4 spells to cycle through timers.

2. Could you imagine the outcry from casters if they had a HP limit on FOD

3. Melees need a lot of love at this time in the game

4. The dev's screwed the pooch on this one, big time.
It makes absolutely no sense why insta-kill spells can work AND rogues assassinate but others can't use Vorpals.

5. BRING BACK THE FUN of vorpals.

Couple of months I was on lowbie TR train. We were in Madstone and got to talking with guildies about the
good old days of vorpals and how much FUN THEY WERE.

Man, those were some fun times. Dual wielding Vorpal users running around in Madstone seeing who could kill the most and fastest. Laughing at each other for steal killing with a vorpal.

Sins, Genesis Point in the good old days, running aorund vorpaling things, looking at kill counts, claiming kill count victory :)

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 12:29 PM
Yes they can. A 42 DC is easy to get and can insta-kill many trash mobs in epics with a simple enervate scroll. hell in ELOB mine landed her finger more often than not on the non-paladins and the toon's maybe 6 weeks old.
Easy implies not much work. Point of fact, I'd have to put in grind to get up to that level. So no, it is not easy.

Upper 30s is where easy ends.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Easy implies not much work. Point of fact, I'd have to put in grind to get up to that level. So no, it is NOT easy. Upper 30s is where easy ends.

Horse hockey.

There are 30 players in my guild who will testify to my laziness (I've made piking an art) and my PM was hitting those numbers a week after cap.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 12:35 PM
Horse hockey.

There are 30 players in my guild who will testify to my laziness (I've made piking an art) and my PM was hitting those numbers a week after cap.

And when you' have been playing a long time, and you have guildies that allow you to pike like that, I'm certain that it is easy, for you.

You can roll 20s for heads starting at level 8, 10 on average but killing with a DC of 42? yeah... My point stands.

Cyr
01-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Resource expenditure and character building/work.

Any ninny can pick up a vorpal and roll a 20. Not every caster can get a DC high enough to kill reliably.

Any ninny can get their DC high enough to have a mob fail on a 1.

The real math is the odds of landing the spell compared to the vorpal and the value placed upon the SP of the spell.

Big deal if someone kills a mob every 20 swings. They will still be light years behind the arcanes who gather up a large group and hit wail.

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Horse hockey.

There are 30 players in my guild who will testify to my laziness (I've made piking an art) and my PM was hitting those numbers a week after cap.

Well, you need a +3 tome, +1 exc INT, +2 exc INT, Yugo pots, and you have to be a PaleMaster to get 42 "easily".

Not the greatest of grinds (compared to my AC guy), but not something most people get a week after capping their first life caster (Yugo pots are EXPENSIVE for new players).

Still, I'm all for vorpal returning back to it's old effect. They might need to nerf those CC scimitars though...

DragonMageT
01-18-2012, 12:45 PM
Still, I'm all for vorpal returning back to it's old effect. They might need to nerf those CC scimitars though...

That would be reasonable instead of nerfing the entire line of vorpals and the melee class.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 12:54 PM
Well, you need a +3 tome, +1 exc INT, +2 exc INT, Yugo pots, and you have to be a PaleMaster to get 42 "easily".

Not the greatest of grinds (compared to my AC guy), but not something most people get a week after capping their first life caster (Yugo pots are EXPENSIVE for new players).

Still, I'm all for vorpal returning back to it's old effect. They might need to nerf those CC scimitars though...

We're talking about epics.

You expect to insta-kill stuff in EPIC without having a little decent (non-epic) gear? That's an absurd expectation.

A human PM with 75 yugo favor and a +2 Tome can get a 42 with an Epic Spyglass (Crystal Cove wellfare epics) and ANY garbage ToD ring for the augment. I'm sorry, if that's considered hard to get I don't know what to say.

Non-epics needs high 30s to kill reliably. Leveling up mine killed at will in everything untill I hit Amrath, then it was Ice Storm and laugh at the dungeon scaling.

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 01:05 PM
We're talking about epics.

You expect to insta-kill stuff in EPIC without having a little decent (non-epic) gear? That's an absurd expectation.

A human PM with 75 yugo favor and a +2 Tome can get a 42 with an Epic Spyglass (Crystal Cove wellfare epics) and ANY garbage ToD ring for the augment. I'm sorry, if that's considered hard to get I don't know what to say.

Non-epics needs high 30s to kill reliably. Leveling up mine killed at will in everything untill I hit Amrath, then it was Ice Storm and laugh at the dungeon scaling.

18 base
5 lvls
3 Wiz INT enh
1 human INT enh
2 Tome
6 item
1 exceptional INT+1 on ToD ring
2 exceptional INT+2 on CC spyglass (Of course, CC is once a year)
2 Wiz Capstone
2 Lich form
2 Guild ship
2 Yugo Pots
---------------------
44

10 base
9 max spell lvl
17 max INT mod
1 Spell Focus feat
1 Greater Spell Focus feat
2 Necro item
1 PaleMaster Lich Form
---------------------
41

What am I missing?

Only palemasters can achieve this. Yugo pots are expensive. I think I have a 42 DC with a +3 tome, and a +7 INT item. I sure as heck don't kill everything in epics with that DC.

Yeah, caster is an easy button... but it's not quite as bad as people say...

"OMG, roll up a Palemaster and solo epic DA!" Not going to happen.

somenewnoob
01-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Man......why does every melee fixing thread devolve into a caster conversation!

Eff!

:p

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 01:07 PM
We're talking about epics.

You expect to insta-kill stuff in EPIC without having a little decent (non-epic) gear? That's an absurd expectation.

A human PM with 75 yugo favor and a +2 Tome can get a 42 with an Epic Spyglass (Crystal Cove wellfare epics) and ANY garbage ToD ring for the augment. I'm sorry, if that's considered hard to get I don't know what to say.

Yes, because that is so easy to get when it isn't in season.

And I do agree, it is an absurd expectation, hence my "easy" comment, it isn't easy. You DO have to work for it (or in your case, have a group that will carry a piker), unlike melee weapons.

A stat damager at lvl 8 (4 rr) or vorpal at 10 (8 rr), of which I've already tossed my copper at.

Such755
01-18-2012, 01:13 PM
/Signed.
This will not be a game breaker, and it will surely make all melee feel a bit better in epic content.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 01:15 PM
18 base
5 lvls
3 Wiz INT enh
1 human INT enh
2 Tome
6 item
1 exceptional INT+1 on ToD ring
2 exceptional INT+2 on CC spyglass (Of course, CC is once a year)
2 Wiz Capstone
2 Lich form
2 Guild ship
2 Yugo Pots
---------------------
44

10 base
9 max spell lvl
17 max INT mod
1 Spell Focus feat
1 Greater Spell Focus feat
2 Necro item
1 PaleMaster Lich Form
---------------------
41

What am I missing?

Only palemasters can achieve this. Yugo pots are expensive. I think I have a 42 DC with a +3 tome, and a +7 INT item. I sure as heck don't kill everything in epics with that DC.

Yeah, caster is an easy button... but it's not quite as bad as people say...

"OMG, roll up a Palemaster and solo epic DA!" Not going to happen.

That should add up to 46 INT.

ArcaneMelee
01-18-2012, 01:24 PM
If the problem was that everyone was insta-killing trash mobs, why let casters do it?
Resource expenditure and character building/work.

Any ninny can pick up a vorpal and roll a 20. Not every caster can get a DC high enough to kill reliably.

Power Word Kill? Enervate/Energy Drain?

It's easier for me to believe that the melee development team got a different memo than the caster development team.

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 01:27 PM
That should add up to 46 INT.

Heh, why so it does!

So tell me, how awesome is your Palemaster in epics... How often does your finger of death or wail land? 90%? 70%? You have to negative level them first? How much SP does that cost?

How about the drow? You kicking their ass with your 42 DC and your first-life caster Spell Pen?

How about the devils in eDA? How often does a wail work on them? How about the casters and Spellbows in eDA? They gather up nicely for a wail or do they range you and make you take them out singly (which is expensive SP wise).

Caster is easy button, yes... yes it is.... DoTs are overpowered... wail is overpowered... but 42 DC doesn't make you godly...

Make wail only affect 4 critters
Lower DoT damage by half (or give critters a save for half-damage). Lower boss hp a bit to compensate.

Edit: Wow, major thread derail. :)

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 01:30 PM
Power Word Kill? Enervate/Energy Drain?

It's easier for me to believe that the melee development team got a different memo than the caster development team.

The only problem with making vorpals insta-kill is no one will use anything else once you get past a certain hp limit...

But yeah, no reason not to since you gave the casters mass insta-kill.

It will make dex builds semi-viable again if vorpals kill trash. My dex-based ranger/wizard sure was fun back when WoP ruled the roost.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 01:31 PM
Edit: Wow, major thread derail. :)


Noticed that, did ya? :p;)

ArcaneMelee
01-18-2012, 01:35 PM
The only problem with making vorpals insta-kill is no one will use anything else once you get past a certain hp limit...

But yeah, no reason not to since you gave the casters mass insta-kill.

It will make dex builds semi-viable again if vorpals kill trash. My dex-based ranger/wizard sure was fun back when WoP ruled the roost.

Exactly. If everyone's swinging vorpals, the root problem is using massive HP to make them "challenging".

TheDearLeader
01-18-2012, 01:44 PM
Exactly. If everyone's swinging vorpals, the root problem is using massive HP to make them "challenging".

Massive HP, and grossly overinflated stats.

When my Kensei has an Improved Trip DC in the mid-50s, I don't expect Drow/Human arcane casters in Epics to save more often than they fail. But, someone decided they should have ridiculously high Str/Dex.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 02:00 PM
Heh, why so it does!

So tell me, how awesome is your Palemaster in epics... How often does your finger of death or wail land? 90%? 70%? You have to negative level them first? How much SP does that cost?

Her finger of death lands a hell of a lot better than your vorpal :)

Against low-hannging fruit usually 1 envervate scroll and she lands finger 95% of the time. Sauhagin, tielfings, etc. Against ogres forget it, attack a weaker save. Against he trash in Epic LOB if I got a curse off on the non-pallies finger landed every time, with no curse it landed more often than not.




How about the drow? You kicking their ass with your 42 DC and your first-life caster Spell Pen?

No, but my web and firewall also kill them better than your vorpal!



How about the devils in eDA? How often does a wail work on them? How about the casters and Spellbows in eDA? They gather up nicely for a wail or do they range you and make you take them out singly (which is expensive SP wise).

CoD and Wail does okay, it'll thin out the herd but won't clear the room. But really it costs too many SP to try to kill every thing, danceball and masshold is cheaper.

She's only done EDA once as we usually bring my ranger or fighter on that, the one time she did it she did out-kill every melee in there all who were veteran players bristling with epic gear.



Caster is easy button, yes... yes it is.... DoTs are overpowered... wail is overpowered... but 42 DC doesn't make you godly...

What the hell does any of that have to do with what we are talking about?

it's not godly, it just contributes a hell of a lot better than any of my melees did 6 weeks after cap.

Thrudh
01-18-2012, 02:02 PM
What the hell does any of that have to do with what we are talking about?

Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 02:08 PM
Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!

It had something to do with dugeons and a dragon, i think . . .

Talon_Moonshadow
01-18-2012, 02:17 PM
For what was it.. 2 years, melee were over powered compared to casters even though if you follow PnP, casters are the more powerful of the bunch.

So in maybe 2 years... Melees have only been crying for a few months.

BTW, range physical (as compared to range magical) has been crying since release.

And quite frankly I really don't see any need to boost melee dps. I do see a need for an AC pass, however. Those mobs get in close, that caster is toast. Not so much for a melee where that is in the job description.

Yeah...that's kinda how I feel too. lol

But from what I see in PUGs melee are still very competitive.

The biggest disadvantage melees face is getting beat up all the time. And I don't know how to to fix that problem.

More tactical melee feats maybe. Especially if they give us epic feats someday.
I'm not opposed to an epic insta-kill meee feat. In fact I think we need one (eventually).

Some method of better self healing for melees. I think using favor to unlock would be appropriate. Current Silver Flame pots seem very expensive to me.

AC to matter, or "armor" to matter at least. (like DR from heavy armor)

Honestly, add meaningful DR to heavier armors, and shields.
Add protection from arrows and AOE damage when actively blocking with Tower shields.
Maybe lower the price of Silver Flame pots.

Those changes right there would make melee take less damage. And make soloing on one a better option.

I actually don't see anything wrong with melee DPS right now.
just the amount of damage they take while dishing it out.

DragonMageT
01-18-2012, 02:21 PM
It had something to do with dugeons and a dragon, i think . . .


Heh, I don't know what the hell we're talking about anymore!!


Recap:

De-nerf stat damagers
Bring Vorpals back because casters are OP
42 DC is easy

Thread derailed: argument about the term "easy"

more conversation about vorpals
more conversation about 42 DC

stat break down of 42 DC

Chaos runs ramp-it in the thread.

The 2 arguing about the word "easy" are now confused.

:)

aristarchus1000
01-18-2012, 02:21 PM
Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?

When I bring my caster, sure I get top kill counts, but I am just greasing the wheel until the next major boss fight. I am not as effective as a well built melee for red names.

Casters manage trash, melee manage the bosses. It really would not be fair if a melee did both, like it was before update 9. (and no, cc bot doesn't count).

And getting back to the thread... I like returning stat damage at least a little bit to epics. It might actually encourage teamwork. Str damage might even make ac useable? Dex damage to improve webs and comet fall cc, as well as lowering the ac of the mob. Con damage to improve wails and fod. I guess there is no wisdom damage for better cc. Hmmm.

Melee helping casters helping melee. Imagine that.

TheDearLeader
01-18-2012, 02:22 PM
More tactical melee feats maybe. Especially if they give us epic feats someday.
I'm not opposed to an epic insta-kill meee feat. In fact I think we need one (eventually).


We don't need more feats, we just need the feats we have to work better.

Things like Improved Trip actually taking a caster out of the fight, or mobs not sliding around while Stunned/Tripped, basically for the duration of the Stun/Trip.

Or anti-boss mechanics like Improved Sunder having a longer duration. Oh yay... I landed an Improved Sunder on the LoB/Sully after five-stacking it... and he Superman Jumps/Teleports away for the duration that I could have actually used it. Meanwhile, the Caster's DoTs are still ticking on them no problem.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 02:34 PM
Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?

Yes people do. Now I'm not saying Grodon does, as his op seemed to be more wanting to give melees a chance to feel as if they added value to the party like they use to do.

Which is ironic if you consider his post claiming to have raised piking to an artform. :)

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 02:35 PM
Yes people do. Now I'm not saying Grodon does, as his op seemed to be more wanting to give melees a chance to feel as if they added value to the party like they use to do.

Which is ironic if you consider his post claiming to have raised piking to an artform. :)

The more the others in my party do, the more i can pike.

somenewnoob
01-18-2012, 02:39 PM
Honestly, do people care about kill counts that much?



No, but I do care that I can't find an eChrono group that isn't "all caster" since a melee has no use if you're full of arcanes and divines.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-18-2012, 03:07 PM
After reading the rest of this thread, I am not totally opposed to some of these ideas.

Stat damagers are currently practically useless on epics. And that isn't right.
They don't kill anyway, so why are they (not)working the way they do on epics?

Vorpals. Should be better than they are.
I don't actually think they should go back to the way they were, but I think they should be beefed up somewhat.

Maybe do some untyped damage with every hit.



These are not things that give melees a lot more DPS. But they give more value to those weapons.

Currently, I think that the only stat damager that has any value to me is W/P.
Not W.
Not P.
Just W/P.

I have seen some people use str damagers effectively, but I personally find them useless.

Stat damagers need a buff actually IMO. I don't seem them as useful even on non-epics. But maybe that is just me.
I do like W/P rapier on my Rogue though.

Been awhile since I used a Vorpal too.

These do need looked at.

I've also always thought player Trip was very weak.
Personally, I could have sworn that trip had a Dex option in PnP.

It's not so much that I think player trip is weak, but that monster trip is so strong. Especially those wolves. (AOE and no attack roll...what the heck is that?!)

But...this would have to be looked at carefully I think. Trip could easily be OP.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 03:13 PM
Currently, I think that the only stat damager that has any value to me is W/P.
Not W.
Not P.
Just W/P.

Wounding of Pure Good or Wounding of Greater Bane are viable alternatives, especially on a small crit range weapon like a bow or an axe.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 03:15 PM
Wounding of Pure Good or Wounding of Greater Bane are viable alternatives, especially on a small crit range weapon like a bow or an axe.

Not since U9. no more auto-crits.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 03:19 PM
Not since U9. no more auto-crits.


I'm not debating the merits of the change to auto crits, just the merits of W/P vs W/PG, W/GB in the present format. Given the small crit range of some weapons, you will probably do more damage with a straight damage modifier than a Puncturing weapon unless you are really lucky. If all you wanted was the auto crits, no stat damagers are really worth the trouble anymore.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 03:25 PM
I'm not debating the merits of the change to auto crits, just the merits of W/P vs W/PG, W/GB in the present format. Given the small crit range of some weapons, you will probably do more damage with a straight damage modifier than a Puncturing weapon unless you are really lucky. If all you wanted was the auto crits, no stat damagers are really worth the trouble anymore.

I'm not, I hate this change. Makes khopesh king in almost every circumstance whereas before you had more opttions.

So what a rapier user would switch to pick for epic trash, you'd have IC:pierce anyway.

I built a lightning II bow on my tempest just so I could IPS manyshot multiple held mobs. Now I dont bother.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 03:42 PM
I never really got the W/P love before the change anyway. You knock their CON down so they go into auto crit for six seconds. At that point your weapon does sub-optimal DPS as the stat damager no longer applies. If you switch to better weapons, a few seconds is lost in the transfer as you have to stop your attack animation, so you don't get your full six seconds of auto crit. Everyone else hitting it does though, so at least there's that. Doesn't seem really worth it to me.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 03:47 PM
I never really got the W/P love before the change anyway. You knock their CON down so they go into auto crit for six seconds. At that point your weapon does sub-optimal DPS as the stat damager no longer applies. If you switch to better weapons, a few seconds is lost in the transfer as you have to stop your attack animation, so you don't get your full six seconds of auto crit. Everyone else hitting it does though, so at least there's that. Doesn't seem really worth it to me.

They also lose HP when they lose CON that you don't see in the damage rolls.

The toon you knew as my elf ranger (now a human pally) kills trash that at vulnerable to stat-damage much faster with her Icy Bursted WoP rapiers than my other guy with dual lightning II khopeshes, even if the target doesn't get to auto-crit.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 03:49 PM
They also lose HP when they lose CON that you don't see in the damage rolls.

Even after they have been brought to zero CON? Don't get me wrong, I use W/PG swords and bows a lot, most things never get to 50% extra damage before they die of straight damage.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 03:50 PM
Even after they have been brought to zero CON?

No, at least i don't think so. but by that time they're usually 2-4 hits away from dying anyway.

Ganolyn
01-18-2012, 03:58 PM
No, at least i don't think so. but by that time they're usually 2-4 hits away from dying anyway.

Low level mobs maybe, but I don't think high level mobs with their up-jumped HP's are.

Missing_Minds
01-18-2012, 04:13 PM
They also lose HP when they lose CON that you don't see in the damage rolls.

The toon you knew as my elf ranger (now a human pally) kills trash that at vulnerable to stat-damage much faster with her Icy Bursted WoP rapiers than my other guy with dual lightning II khopeshes, even if the target doesn't get to auto-crit.

After the change of no kill at 0, I loved myself wounding of pg with icy burst for flavor myself.
After the change of no auto crit it became dependent upon the character if it was worth while to swap out away or not.

And I agree, Gordon, I don't think they lost any any additional HP at zero con. But the way some trash moved, they could regen that 1 point of con. Instant con stun again.

However, I really don't think the auto crit was a huge issue accept for the old school dreamspitter. And I'm talking the original one where any crit was 1d4 level drain. That was the straw that seemed to break Turbine's back. That has sense been changed to be as the wording described. Man, I remember having the talks with turbine devs back then trying to keep the dreamspitter be a guarantied on crit rather than just a chance on crit.

Trick is any good group in epics will swarm targets one at a time and even then trash dies fast. Con draining will allow allow the save or die spells to hit easier. Nothing would have changed for melees for the most part. (yes, this gives your request more amo in my opinion.)
Quite honestly I find that wounding and maladroit being the best of the stat damagers. Charisma being the worst as it has a save.

zeonardo
01-18-2012, 04:17 PM
http://ddowiki.com/images/Terror1.jpg (http://ddowiki.com/page/Terror)

Don't mind the yellow numbers. It will proc.

Talon_Moonshadow
01-18-2012, 05:18 PM
I never really got the W/P love before the change anyway. You knock their CON down so they go into auto crit for six seconds. At that point your weapon does sub-optimal DPS as the stat damager no longer applies. If you switch to better weapons, a few seconds is lost in the transfer as you have to stop your attack animation, so you don't get your full six seconds of auto crit. Everyone else hitting it does though, so at least there's that. Doesn't seem really worth it to me.

Currently, the character I have that gets use out of W/P is my Rogue, with a W/P Rapier.

If for some reason the monster lives long enough to agro on me, he is usually stunned and I still get SA damage on him...so he sure doesn't live long enough to actually fight back. ;)

Other than that I don't feel they are worth it.

grodon9999
01-18-2012, 05:24 PM
Currently, the character I have that gets use out of W/P is my Rogue, with a W/P Rapier.

If for some reason the monster lives long enough to agro on me, he is usually stunned and I still get SA damage on him...so he sure doesn't live long enough to actually fight back. ;)

Other than that I don't feel they are worth it.

But you just described and ubber reason to have them. Keep in mind . . . sneak attack gets a 50% bonus on helpless (added to the first number).

oradafu
01-18-2012, 05:49 PM
But you just described and ubber reason to have them. Keep in mind . . . sneak attack gets a 50% bonus on helpless (added to the first number).

Unless something changed recently, Sneak Attack gets no extra damage from helplessness. Other numbers from the hit get the bonus, but that's true with all damage no matter if the source is melee or magic, except for Glancing blows and Slaying Arrows.

Scraap
01-18-2012, 06:26 PM
Unless something changed recently, Sneak Attack gets no extra damage from helplessness. Other numbers from the hit get the bonus, but that's true with all damage no matter if the source is melee or magic, except for Glancing blows and Slaying Arrows.

Incorrect actually. The second displayed number, that folks associate with SA, doesn't change. The first, that folks associate with raw damage, jumps much higher than it would were it onlystraight damage * 1.5.