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View Full Version : Epic Chains of Flames needs two minor revisions



Carpone
01-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Two minor revisions to Epic Chains of Flame are needed:

1. Epic chest should provide two full epic tokens instead of the one full epic token. eCOF typically takes longer to run than Epic Devil's Assault which provides two full tokens and a plethora of other useful rewards. eDA also has fewer class requirements than eCOF. While a trapper isn't required for eCOF, it sure makes it easier.

2. Increase the shard drop rate from the epic chest to always drop shards. I've run eCOF 10 times since U12.2 with a full group, and we've gotten ZERO shards. That's unacceptable and absolutely frustrating, especially when you compare it to other epic quests like Into the Deeps or Big Top which always drop a shard for each person.

grodon9999
01-12-2012, 09:40 AM
I'd say the same for EADQ, and put a shrine in the front.

Sarisa
01-12-2012, 09:50 AM
Two minor revisions to Epic Chains of Flame are needed:

1. Epic chest should provide two full epic tokens instead of the one full epic token. eCOF typically takes longer to run than Epic Devil's Assault which provides two full tokens and a plethora of other useful rewards. eDA also has fewer class requirements than eCOF. While a trapper isn't required for eCOF, it sure makes it easier.

Agree. I love eChains, even more than eDA. My most efficient eChains was 42 minutes, plus the length of time to run out there.

If token rewards are being adjusted, Spies in the House needs at least a full token, not the 70ish fragments you get now. VoN4 also deserves a full token.

Make actual epic quests competitive sources of tokens, rather than having challenges (which do not follow the same rules as actual epic quests) be by FAR the best source of tokens.

A side idea could also be to increase the number of fragments provided by the collectible bags, instead of just one. 1-2 for a bag from a normal trash mob, 2-3 from more challenging trash mobs (Flying Abishai for instance), 3-5 from minibosses, 5-10 from bosses, 10-20 from purples.


2. Increase the shard drop rate from the epic chest to always drop shards. I've run eCOF 10 times since U12.2 with a full group, and we've gotten ZERO shards. That's unacceptable and absolutely frustrating, especially when you compare it to other epic quests like Into the Deeps or Big Top which always drop a shard for each person.

Major problem for the desert in general. I have done around 15 eChains since u10, seen two shards (Unkor's and Cape). I have done over 70 Wiz Kings since update 7, and over the entire time, the full groups have seen a grand total of 8 shards (Spectacles x2, Vambraces x2, Sirocco x1, Bracers x1, Silken x1, Opener x1). 40 OOB's with 7 shards (2x Gloves, 3x Shield, 2x Leathers, 2x Dagger). 80 ADQ1's with around 15 shards (lost track of exactly how many, only real highlights were 2x Wolf Whistle, 1x Bloodstone, 1x Coif, 2x Xuum).

An estimated 9% chance of a shard drop in your name is unacceptable for the length of time and challenge level of these quests. I might not go all the way to a guaranteed shard in Chains/Wiz King/OOB due to the small loot tables, but a 50% chance of seeing a shard drop in your name would be a huge boon. ADQ1 could definitely handle a guaranteed shard drop due to having 30 possible items (plus seals can sometimes appear in the end chest).

While reducing grind could result in SOME people not running them once they get their items, it would get more people overall interested in actually running the quests. Now, many many people discount the desert entirely because of needing an estimated 2-4 months of grind to complete the average quest item, and an estimated 4-6 months of grind to complete an explorer item.

MsEricka
01-12-2012, 12:19 PM
Only two tokens? I would even say it deserves three considering how long it takes compared to other epics.

somenewnoob
01-12-2012, 12:21 PM
I would fully support increasing the number of tokens in there.

CoasterHops
01-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Fully support, increased Tokens and shard drop rates. Increase the explorer area shard drops in these explorer quests already turbine, hehe.

Personally it is my favourite epic quest, it actually feels epic and you feel good when you complete it, but as it stands now the rewards just dont make running it anywhere near viable for the amount of time in quest.

While they are at it Turbine should put a pass through of all the epic desert items, some could stay the same but many need improving dramatically. Most of this stuff is now far eclipsed by non epic gear out there, challenge gear or the easy epic stuff, the time for an overhaul is here.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Agree with all suggestions made herein.

Also would like to see a bonus chest spawn in Chains and Wiz-King (and other epics with a ton of traps) upon achieving Ingenious Debilitation. Perhaps have it drop token fragments.

PNellesen
01-12-2012, 04:04 PM
Now, many many people discount the desert entirely because of needing an estimated 2-4 months of grind to complete the average quest item, and an estimated 4-6 months of grind to complete an explorer item.

I've not run a single Sands Epic, primarily because of this. The grind for most of the base items is bad enough; to double, triple or quadruple that for the shards/seals/scrolls you need to make them epic (with the odds MUCH higher that you'll simply NEVER get them)? No thanks.

sweez
01-12-2012, 04:17 PM
Make actual epic quests competitive sources of tokens, rather than having challenges (which do not follow the same rules as actual epic quests) be by FAR the best source of tokens.

-THIS-

We get it, Turbine, challenges were a big project, they're pricy and you want to sell them. But making them give better token/minute ratio than actual epic quests is just insane.

Thrudh
01-12-2012, 04:27 PM
2. Increase the shard drop rate from the epic chest to always drop shards. I've run eCOF 10 times since U12.2 with a full group, and we've gotten ZERO shards. That's unacceptable and absolutely frustrating, especially when you compare it to other epic quests like Into the Deeps or Big Top which always drop a shard for each person.

Carpone: Doctor, my head hurts everytime I hit it with a hammer.
Doctor: Stop hitting your head with a hammer.

:) :)

I agree with your suggestions. (But why oh why do you people still run those quests!)

Thrudh
01-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Now, many many people discount the desert entirely because of needing an estimated 2-4 months of grind to complete the average quest item, and an estimated 4-6 months of grind to complete an explorer item.

I'm amazed anyone runs those quests.

Carpone
01-12-2012, 04:47 PM
I agree with your suggestions. (But why oh why do you people still run those quests!)
I want an Epic Staff of Inner Sight on my 20 wizard with eight past lives.

fuzzy1guy
01-12-2012, 05:12 PM
Redacted

TheDearLeader
01-12-2012, 05:30 PM
So run edq where the shard shows up often.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_rrvsk7X7-JQ/TPUzU5WOVuI/AAAAAAAABVU/ChV3KODqgKo/s400/Anchorman-Brick_l.jpg

Good one.

Edit : Thought I'd add - I agree with everyone OP has said. Chains, and in fact Sands in general, needs more than just the scroll trade-in to make it... well, fun.

Carpone
01-13-2012, 05:55 AM
So run edq where the shard shows up often.
I have more than 180 Epic Zawabi's Revenge completions, and it's dropped twice (which I didn't win).

Sarisa
01-13-2012, 06:47 AM
I'm amazed anyone runs those quests.

They're actually fun to run. It's just the reward isn't really worth the effort, and that part should be changed.

Dunklerlindwurm
01-13-2012, 07:19 AM
While i agree with everything said...

If you want Tokens just run Level 21 Epic Challenges.

You can get 10 Epic Dungeon Tokens in just 1 hour there...yes its true. And repeat it as often as you want.

Real Epics have become useless now.
Except if you want the items but even the items are most of the time nothing compared to the Challenge Epic Items.

Roderickus
01-13-2012, 01:41 PM
So run edq where the shard shows up often.
Shards from items other than Raid are harder to get. So if u need staff of inner sight shard ul most likely get it in the quest where it drops, chains. From the flagging quest I only saw a shard of Spectral Gloves, Sirroco and Ring of Baphomet (only one I saw from Chains I think) and dropping in EDQ and have quite a few runs in there, not nearly as much as Carpone but maybe 30 or so epic runs.

Carpone
01-17-2012, 05:50 AM
Our no-shard streak continues in eCOF. Would really love to hear from someone at Turbine if desert drop rates are every going to be revised, or if shards will take the same route as scrolls. (Doubtful on that last bit.)

DeltaBravo
01-17-2012, 07:17 AM
/Signed

And Ecof is far longer and harder then Epic devil assult and not onlydoes that one give better loot in the end. it also gives 2 tokens.

Please make ECOF drop at least 2 tokens.

Most of the desert items is allready being outdated. and you allready upped those items twice now.. Please make atleast the drop rate there a bit better so that the people that actully would like to get something there, dont loose hope and give up on em. As the you might sell your challenge packs turbine.. but will loose your desert packs..

voodoogroves
01-17-2012, 07:33 AM
They are fun, just not AS fun.

At least OOB is fast.

I ran into a guy a while back that was soloing Wiz King (epic). He did it every few days, then towards the end invited folks in to tackle Ray.

ME: How long does it take you?
HIM: I kinda go slow ... about 4 hours.


.... 4 hours ...

TheDearLeader
01-17-2012, 09:14 AM
They are fun, just not AS fun.

At least OOB is fast.

I ran into a guy a while back that was soloing Wiz King (epic). He did it every few days, then towards the end invited folks in to tackle Ray.

ME: How long does it take you?
HIM: I kinda go slow ... about 4 hours.


.... 4 hours ...

My longest Wiz King completion was 5+ Hours. I joined an hour in, so for those that were there the whole time, 6+ Hours. :) That's knowing the meaning of paaaaain.

Sarisa
01-17-2012, 09:42 AM
My longest Wiz King completion was 5+ Hours. I joined an hour in, so for those that were there the whole time, 6+ Hours. :) That's knowing the meaning of paaaaain.

I had a similar experience with Wiz King, though I joined at the 4 hour mark. Just Raiyum was left when I joined. We kited him all the way to the entrance foyer, for appropriate cover. Raiyum got Heal Scrolled to death by me and a Sorc, between Manyshots from the one useful AA (the other two could not do anything due to everything being broken, and having poor equipment to start with) in the group. Total completion time was nearly 6 hours, and it was a skunk chest.

My duo run in u7 on my Cleric with a friend's Wizard ran just a hair over 90 minutes (and this had double HP trash, no Implosion/Undead to Death, but a better Firewall). Most of my 3-5 person runs average 60-65 minutes (a bit faster post-u9, pre-u9 was 70-75 minutes on average). Fastest run, with 3 monks with Mabar wraps, a Barb with a 3Pos maul, me healing, and a wizard was 35 minutes. Not bad for 8 chests, including a Marilith Chain and a Staff of Arcane Power seal (but no shards).

Wiz King in an average group who don't know all the tricks should run 60-90 minutes, and is easy enough (aside from Raiyum). It could definitely bear having a shard drop rate increase, and 2 tokens would be nice but not necessary.

All of the desert quests should give better rewards than they do. Better rewards mean more people would be willing to run them, and more people willing to challenge themselves to doing real epic quests. Much of the hatred of the Desert epics comes from the grind involved with the pathetically bad drop rates, not the difficulty.

Challenges, with their ridiculous token/hour rates, and completely different mechanics than standard epic quests, are just demeaning to the value of epic quests.

Tinco
01-17-2012, 10:04 AM
The original epic dungeon and reward system is completely broken and eCoF and the desert in general are just two of the shining examples. They are so broken that a simple adjustment in dungeon tokens will not cut it and development resources should rather be invested in a complete revision of how 'standard' epic gear is acquired especially in comparison to the extremely predictable way of obtaining (the statwise largely superior) challenge gear.

sweez
01-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Challenges, with their ridiculous token/hour rates, and completely different mechanics than standard epic quests, are just demeaning to the value of epic quests.

Well, most people that planned to buy desert already bought it - they still have to sell the challenges.

Carpone
01-18-2012, 06:50 PM
The original epic dungeon and reward system is completely broken and eCoF and the desert in general are just two of the shining examples. They are so broken that a simple adjustment in dungeon tokens will not cut it and development resources should rather be invested in a complete revision of how 'standard' epic gear is acquired especially in comparison to the extremely predictable way of obtaining (the statwise largely superior) challenge gear.
Minor tweaks like the two I suggested would require minimal effort: Updating the loot table percentage shard drop rate from 0.10% to 10.00% and setting epic_chest_fragment_reward=200. The hardest part about these changes is getting someone's attention at Turbine.

voodoogroves
01-18-2012, 06:56 PM
My longest Wiz King completion was 5+ Hours. I joined an hour in, so for those that were there the whole time, 6+ Hours. :) That's knowing the meaning of paaaaain.

I rarely have a 5 hour block to spend.

If I do, I'd rather hit a quick ADQ / eDQ and like 10 other things instead of just.one.quest.


Well, most people that planned to buy desert already bought it - they still have to sell the challenges.

I still want my back-in-time sands epic explorer area. They could sell that. That'd be awesome.