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decease
01-12-2012, 10:40 PM
brought these a while ago.. the downside is they all being the same.. well rougly.. would be nice if there are something unique in each series... instead of old stuff in different map repeating X times..

Feithlin
01-12-2012, 11:46 PM
I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.

Personally, I hate randomness and much prefer something you see advancing. Or if it is random, you should be able to get it after a fixed number of attempts (like 20th raid rewards, even I would really like if all the raid's named items were on the list, but that's another story).

azrael4h
01-13-2012, 12:02 AM
1 - I did not buy the pack, because 1500 tp is insane. So I've not tried all of them, in fact only a couple using tokens.

2 - Protection quests = fail. Look at how full the LFM is for Threnal parties. Or even some of the better designed ones, like Small Problem.

3 - Timed quests = fail. Look at how many LFMs are up for those few timed quests in the game.

4 - XP sucks. Really, that low xp for any timed quest? Any protection quest? A TIMED PROTECTION QUEST!!! Not happening.

5 - Loot is situational at best for most items, far too much of a grind to make worthwhile.

So all told, a over-priced pack featuring heavy in the two worst mechanics in the game combined with poor xp and poor loot that requires excessive grinding for means they're not worth running, nor purchasing.

Now, the concept of a level-adjustable quest pack is a good idea. Leaderboards are meh, since that's just pointless epeen waving, but giving players the option to try for more "stars" on completion rather than just once on elite and done is a good idea. Try these out on some real quests instead.

Nandos
01-13-2012, 12:02 AM
I want to give some feedback from a different point of view. I have mostly attempted challenges on low (level 4) and a medium (level 11) characters. It is very hard at these levels getting players to group for them, so I end up doing them solo with a hireling.

I feel the cost of the gear at the vendor for low and medium levels is too high. The level 4 items cost 400 of part A and 400 of part B. After failing the initial run of each instance figuring out what to do, I got somewhere around 100 parts per run on my level 4. So after several hours of play, I ended up with about half of what I needed for one level 4 weapon.

The costs are much worse at medium levels when the small upgrades become available. It is 1200 parts for level 8 and 12 items. 1200 more to upgrade it once, and another 1200 to upgrade it to tier 3. If somehow, my level 11 could make 200 per run every run, it would still be 18 runs to make one tier 3 item. This is in no way likely, as on some of the mining maps you get unlucky and end up with hardly any purple crystals and have to start over.

My suggestion is to lower the costs of the low and medium level items, especially the t2 and t3 upgrade costs.

Vormaerin
01-13-2012, 12:50 AM
I don't like the kobold herding ones. I'm not fond of escort type gameplay in general. So I just run the others more often and pay the conversion costs. I'd rather run Kobold Island 4 times as often then do Lava caves, especially solo.

Natashaelle
01-13-2012, 01:49 AM
Inventory space is a major hassle in some challenges. Because you need to have a clear space for teleporters, cannon construction kits, torches, 8+ different kinds of crests - and also largely because your inventory is constantly taking on more and more supply chests that don't stack - having 1 or 2 blank spaces free is almost a non-starter. In Rushmore, I try to have at least 8 spaces free, and that just sucks to clear out. It might be nice if there were some sort of "challenge space" for challenge-only items like torches, or else some kinds of challenge bags, although having yet another kind of bag would make me die a little inside, I think. Anyway, lack of inventory space. Major hassle. Point made, I hope.


About that -- I'm currently Premium, and because I've been collecting Challenges tokens for the day when I'll feel like having a big Challenges spree, I currently have one entire inventory tab on my main containing these things only (except for two item slots) -- this is EXTREMELY annoying -- and that's not even including the space I'd need for the Challenges quest items....

So not just +1 ; but +5 to this suggestion about freeing up inventory from being cluttered with all of this junk !!!

Angelus_dead
01-13-2012, 02:22 AM
About that -- I'm currently Premium, and because I've been collecting Challenges tokens for the day when I'll feel like having a big Challenges spree, I currently have one entire inventory tab on my main containing these things only (except for two item slots) -- this is EXTREMELY annoying -- and that's not even including the space I'd need for the Challenges quest items....
If you'd bought the pack you wouldn't have to carry all those things... the financial incentive isn't for WB to change this.

Artos_Fabril
01-13-2012, 02:37 AM
If you'd bought the pack you wouldn't have to carry all those things... the financial incentive isn't for WB to change this.
Except that there is still an incentive to collect and use these for VIPs and people who bought the pack, in that they can get you temporary buffs, or challenge buff items and things like parts, kobolds, torches, etc.

hewimeddel
01-13-2012, 02:47 AM
I didn't buy this pack with challenges, because it is way too expensive to buy the "cat in the sack", like we germans say.
I have no idea what these challenges are about and i don't like to pay such a huge amount of turbine points just to try it.

It would be nice if at least one of these challenges could be done without cost, or if the really expensive package would be made into some smaller packs, so that i can try if these are something that i'd like to do.

bye
hewi

Angelus_dead
01-13-2012, 02:53 AM
It would be nice if at least one of these challenges could be done without cost
You already can do one without cost; and it changes everyday so you can eventually do them all.

"Get the milk for free" as the English say.

quijenoth
01-13-2012, 03:48 AM
Ok following on from my last post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4254856#post4254856).

Rewards
Experience within the quests has recieved a boost and TBH I think is addiquate on most cases with perhaps Rushmores needing some scaling over time spent.
Supply Chests are ok additions but do cause problems with inventory space. having to clear your bags after each run makes them a mild anoyance but other than that at least it gives us some plat form of rewards (although the balace between quests should be addressed since I often get 5+ in Kobold Island yet only 1 per named (5 total) in rushmore and 2 - 3 in any of the other quests. It would be nice perhaps to reward 1 supply chest per star achieved upon completion. Personally, with the exception of Rushmore, the number of red named dropping chests needs to be reduced. so that you only get perhaps 1 or 2 per run (and perhaps the 1-5 upon completion)

Completion Rewards
As I mentioned previously the level scales of quests needs to be addressed. Currently to achieve the ingredents for a level 12 item you need to be able to obtain items from a challenge you need to be level 15 to enter. this is BAD DESIGN. what should be happening is that if you do at level quests on harder difficulties you get a chance at higher level rewards. Hence my previous statement about bringing back the C/N/H/E scaling. having the ingredients also tied into the score system yet the score system doesnt completely interract with the star objectives is confusing and rather odd. For example; Collosal Crystals rewards are not effected by obtaining all 3 proginator crystals, doing the quest to 5 star it only nets around 200-400 ingredients, however ignoring the 2 extra crystals and instead concentrating on PURPLE crystals has seen people net as much as 1,500 ingredients per run!!!

Overall the rewards on completion are POOR and confusing when you consider favor as well.

End Loots
The level 4 stuff needs to go, its poor quality loot that no-one is really interested in, those that might be farming them, would be better off spend the time getting their characters to level 8 to use that stuff. the number of ingredients and trading levels is completely out of wack too. Why would you spend 400 of a particular ingredient to obtain a level 4 item when you can save those 400 to make a level 12 version of that item. If the intent of upgrading as you go was implied why is it that to upgrade an item (say the frozen tunic) requires 400 coins for level 4, 200 coins for the level 8 and another 200 coins for the level 12! not to mention that if you take any of these up a tier you lose the incredients (400 each) on those tiers too!

Suggestion
Crystal Cove involved collecting crystals, you obtained your goal and where awarded a share of the extra crystals collected upon completion, this made perfect sence. however in Kobold Chaos you are extracting crystals, but you are awared Crude Talismans based on the number of crystals you extracted???? This makes no sense at all.

Instead lets treat the rewards as payment. Currently 3 of the 4 themes require crystals. so lets use them as the base currency like you did in CCove.

Each item has a base cost in crystals. increasing as you raise the level.
Crystals are awarded per quest at a fixed amount (lets say 100) if you complete the quest on hard difficulty that reward is increased by 20%, and by 50% on Elite.
Each star obtained in the quest rewards an additional 10% (stacking AFTER difficulty % is applied)

Now lets look at the loot - each Item requires X amount of crystals. each item also requires a type of gem or artifact obtained from named defeated in rushmore. or the dragon in extraplanar mining. The number of gems depends on the level of the item.

Gems can also be purchased by spending crystals on a vendor.

Rushmore quest rewards 1 gem upon completion and an additional gem per star objective instead of crystals. Gems obtained from the quest are level appropriate, doing the quest on hard has a 20% chance per star of awarding a gem from the next highest tier. quests on elite have a 50% chance.

Gems/artificacts can be exchanged upwards or downwards. Gems can also be used to purchase additional disposable loot items (like the gems potions and wands on CCove)

What this does is create an interlocking pattern between the 4 types of quests while removing the need to perpetually grind one type of quest per item.

I'll let you guys work out the specific loot dispersion but remember to make upgrading viable (IE cheaper at level) and make the items worth having at level. some are gold while others are somewhat lacking.

To apply such a change without causing server wide chaos over the people who have grind ingredients so far is to simply add a new vendor that will buy the existing items off players in exchance for the NEW crystal currency.

hewimeddel
01-13-2012, 04:49 AM
You already can do one without cost; and it changes everyday so you can eventually do them all.



Huh?
Can you please advise me how to do this? Maybe via PM?

bye
hewi

oradafu
01-13-2012, 04:54 AM
Okay, here's a few points that I didn't get to before...

As others have said, the XP, although boosted since it launched, should be better...espiecally if you want an added reason to repeat the quests. Everytime a gate is opened in Rushmoor, there is 2 minutes added to the quest. I'd suggest adding XP (that doesn't diminish) when a gate is open. I'm not sure what exactly the correct amount should be, but I'd suggest the same amount that a player would get for killing a rare the second time in an wilderness that's the same level as the Challenge. So for a level 19 Challenge, I believe it would be about 350 xp.

When setting Teleporters down and getting attacked by mobs, the Teleporter can just disappear. This is a very annoying bug since you can only buy two teleporters unless you spend TP. Also, I've never heard anyone bring this up before.

I'm surprised that you haven't known about the lack of renown from the Challenges. That's been a major complaint since Lamannia. An easy solution would be to add it to the barter box...but I doubt this will happen. Why? Because from what I understand, the horrible move in the Sands pack with converting the token exchange from a end reward list to a single item barter box was to prevent renown farming. (As an aside, since the barter box change, the few people who collected the tokens in the Sands haven't bothered since there's a lack of choice from the barter box.)

I'm also surprised that you haven't heard about the Star objectives being
I brought this up in Lamannia when the new items were added... I'm glad that Epic Tokens, XP pots, etc along with the ingredients exchange were added to the barter box. However, a new barterer should be added that deals strictly with this so there's less clutter in the other boxes.

As for gameplay, the Challenges were originally pitched about a year ago as (I'll paraphrase) short and solo-friendly. Now I don't expect that all the objectives should be achievable while soloing, but the main objectives should be. Additionally, as others have stated, the Challenges aren't melee friendly, much less melee solo friendly (much like many other things in the game, but that's a different complaint). As I just stated, the main objective should be achievable to all classes. The patches have helped with with many of the challenges, but I still find Colossal Crystal and Short Cuts impossible to near impossible to achieve soloing on a melee (I think I was able to beat Short Cuts once on a melee soloing)

As for short, there's only two or three challenges that are actually short: Time is Money, Buying Time and Labor Shortage. Of course, there's a chance that Rushmoor can be short, but not always guaranteed (much like the proper crest drops).

I don't think a Dev said it, but several people originally defended the Challenges as being something other than just hack-and-slash. I only wish that were the case. Outside of something like Kobold Assault, these are the very definition of hack-and-slash. I was really hoping for some non-combat alternatives to the game. As I stated elsewhere, I hope that we can see some puzzle based challenges. Someone suggested a challenge where you avoid fights by running away, similar to Offering of Blood, and that sounds like a nice alternative also. Heck, I'd love to see a "whodonit" text based quest where you must pay attention to the dialog to solve a mystery. Of course, this would involve multiple different texts that change with each entrance, but that's sort of what we have with the theatre backdrop and wheel in Partycrashers already or even the Dragon in Abbot flagging to a lesser degree, right?

Again, I must repeat that the lack of certain items in the Challenges. There's no healer item. Every melee style weapon but the Acrobat's was added to the barter box. This pack should have had Dwarven Axes and other weapons that the Devs seem to refuse to make as named items.

DocBenway
01-13-2012, 05:17 AM
Huh?
Can you please advise me how to do this? Maybe via PM?

bye
hewi

Subscribe to this http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350221 thread and you can see most of the details and which is the new daily free challenge token.

We do our best to keep it up to date as the token changes. First character of your account / server will get 5 tokens each character afterward will get 1. We try to keep that thread updated to help folks decide which character they want to have the extra 4 tokens.

Failedlegend
01-13-2012, 05:54 AM
I'm sure I missed alot of discussion but I gotta say I LOVE the weird buffs in the magic mansion one it makes things really interesting...the jump spell that breaks the soft cap is my favorite

RTN
01-13-2012, 07:58 AM
1) We need more renown coming out of these. Perhaps killing named could grant everyone in the party a chest level renown reward (through the existing mob death mechanic).
2) The amount of variance in rewards (how many ingredients you get per time spent) needs a lot of work.
3) Favor needs to increase, especially given that it is the only way to get artificers without purchasing them. I'm not saying it has to be easy, but the current version sets the bar a little too high.
4) Tokens need a higher stacking limit and they need to go into an existing bag. I don't know anyone that actually grabs them anymore since they're such a pain in the butt. I'm sure some do, but no one that I know.
4a) VIP (and premium?) get a small perk with the tokens, but the hassle means almost no one does. I think switching the "perk" tokens to universal, even at a lower rate of reception, would be a very nice change.

Vindraxx
01-13-2012, 07:58 AM
Reformating my thoughts to make them easier to follow, etc.

* Lots of them require splitting the party. This is punishing of a lot of character archetypes - if you aren't self-sufficient, you are at a BIG disadvantage. While a raid group could send away 2-3 people to deal with an extractor being attacked, 6 player (or smaller) groups usually can only spare one person.
* Star objectives that require sabotaging your score (keep the Entropic Giant Skele alive five minutes, etc) cause an annoying tension in PUGs. I had this happen recently in a 20 Lava Caves: Time is Money where we decided on the fly to sabotage our score to achieve a six-star run, but two of the five of us already had that achievement down and would have preferred to get another 100 crystals instead.
* It's been said before, I'll say it again: The star objectives that cannot be completed without requisitions need to go.
* Some way to END CHALLENGES EARLY if everyone agrees would be great. I'm an impatient person, and sitting dead solo in Rushmore 23 with two bosses dead, an OK score, and six minutes on the clock is annoying.
Suggestions:


Agree whole-heartedly with the above. I would love to see these looked into and evaluated.

Cyr
01-13-2012, 09:14 AM
No, no, yes, and no.

Considering that those first two no's are common knowledge in the game and have been discussed more then a few times on the forums that is just not okay.

I can not imagine that the developers in charge of these particular game aspects are not aware of these things. It sounds like you are being kept out of the loop or are intentionally keeping yourself out of the loop. I am guessing it is the first one. Tolero probably delivers stuff to the specific developer when she hears about something on the forums, but the common knowledge things are not reaching you.

That is a huge deal. You can not make good decisions without gaps in basic information missing.

There are only so many steps in the chain. It should be easy to figure out where it is breaking down and make sure this basic information reaches you in the future.

Solmage
01-13-2012, 09:38 AM
I'm still making my way through the thread, but I don't think you're alone here. I think the lack of being able to get lucky and 'get it on this run' is a negative, compounded by the fact that it's a long haul to get your first reward.

Keep in mind we all heard the same thing when the shroud came Mad, please don't forget all those threads. "I'll never craft anything there, I won't even bother, there's no way I'm running that thing 20 times" etc etc etc.

It is now THE most popular quest in the entire game, and has been, BECAUSE you don't walk away with nothing after a run. Each 20 completions you get a nearly guaranteed +3 tome (which used to matter before someone put them in the store and then allowed 20+ tomes per person exploit to go unpunished, sigh) and a cleansing essence. In addition, with the exception of large bones, chances are the other ingredients will be of some use sometime.

At the same time, it also contains the element of luck ("Yeah! Double scales!!") that gives it an anticipated feeling of "will I get lucky?"

So, my question is, you guys nailed the design so many years ago, why have you guys been ....messing around since then?

ALL your loot sytsems, not just challenges, need to follow a similar model, specially epics btw. Running a quest needs to have a minimal amount of progression towards obtaining X. It should also have a random chance of getting very lucky and obtaining X outright.

(This works particularly well when X is a rare ingredient, such as a large scale, or a desert shard, or something, as opposed to just obtaining an extra 300 wings or something)

Lerincho
01-13-2012, 09:51 AM
For the most part my static groups has loved the challenges with one exception, anything on Kobold island. Yes we can complete, but none of them are enjoyable to do. We absolutely love Dr. Rushmore's, prefer Extraplanar over Lava Caves, but we completely avoid Kobold Island. Crest rate in Dr. Rushmore's seems extremely iffy every other run.

Solmage
01-13-2012, 10:49 AM
Um, you do realize that the lich does 112 points of negative damage on you with just an item. You have to have deathWARD or you are toast in 12 seconds because that is how long it takes him to FoD you, a kobold, you, a kobold, you (this doesn't include the fact that he throws 2-3 other spells in there like mass hold person and disintegrate. The character in question has the kundarak boots or I would have been even more toasty (as the one time i forgot them it took me a 20 to save).

I'm not disagreeing that the lich is a bit insane, but you SHOULD be carrying at least 1 *(and ideally two) deathward clickies from tangle root at that level. (ofc chances are it'll get dispelled, but it'll help while you have it)

The lich is particularly dangerous to casters, who often won't have a single spell that can hurt him at that level, and particularly easy for divines who can just dot him and cast deathward on kobolds.

Perhaps any encounter with liches should have a purchasable 'torch of deathward' or something along those lines?

Claver
01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
...a few more comments on what works for me in the U12 challenge game play

The (GOOD)

EXPLORATION: Moving through different environments works much better than staying in place. Rushmore, Extraplanar Mining and Lava Caves all encourage exploration. My least favorite Challenge, Kobold Island does not. In Kobold Island I find myself guarding one extractor for large stretches of time or running back and forth between two extractors or 3 extractors in the same pattern until time runs out. It feels like a chore not a sense of adventure where new discovery is around the next corner. I’m not opposed to defense missions I’m opposed to static location defense. Coyle is terrible because we are stuck in the same room for 15 minutes; crystal cove is fun because we are defending the kobolds through the entire length of the caves while exploring, Power Play is fun because we are defending the Kylea D'Cannith crystal activator as we explore the entire dungeon.

VARIATION: Extraplanar Mining and Lava Caves and Colossal Crystal and Rushmore Mansion can lead to different paths because of random purple crystal and crest locations. Kobold Islands doesn’t seem to vary, I seem to end up at the same extractors every time. Granted this is my strategy but there is little from a mechanic perspective like purple crystal placement to cause me to vary my approach. Doing the same thing every time to grind out ingredients is much less fun than taking out different bosses in Rushmore Mansion and setting up different torch lines in different directions.

TIME LIMITS: I love them! For me, it makes the challenges exciting – more so than most quests, especially when you are running down to under 2 minutes and you know you have a slim chance of extending for another 2 minutes if you get lucky. Quests offer the lottery reward of named loot pulls for big excitement. Challenges don’t do this; you know you will never get the excitement of pulling the gear you want but eventually you can grind it out. If this is the model of Challenges then some other occasional big “lottery” winning should be added – say very rarely pulling an extra +5 minutes so you can knock that Challenge out of the park.

SUCCESS!!!: The report of the number of green dragon shards at the end Crystal Cove was a big motivator in making me want to immediately repeat my run to try to better my score. The U12 challenges don’t have this. The relationship between Stars, ingredients, XP, favor is confusing as others have pointed out. Should future challenges have clear feedback directly tied to performance i.e. “your take is 114 green dragon shards”, it will tap into the addictive behavior to try to better that score.


The (BAD)

UNFUN ROLES: For the challenge to be more successful someone often needs to take a role that might be less fun than the other roles in the party like “never explore the challenge map, just stand by the entrance and guard the foreman” or “stand by this extractor the entire challenge”. Rushmore doesn’t have what I would see as one of these negative roles. When designing a Challenge for group play consider if we are being encouraged towards game play that will be moderately fun for everyone.

SPLITTING UP: The design on most of the U12 challenges seems to promote splitting up in big dungeon maps. When I run with my friends I have more fun if our characters are close together and we can help each other. This can be done somewhat in Rushmore but it is better there to split into duo’s to cover more ground.

START TIME/ END TIME: If we have achieved the challenge goal but there is still time left you have to wait until time expires before receiving any ingredients. You can’t “finish out” upon completion with time left on the clock or you fail the challenge. This is a problem if you and or your party are dead. I’ve had more than one occasion where I had to watch my soul stone for 4+ minutes waiting for the challenge to time out. There should be a stop watch button to push to voluntarily end the challenge or at least take time off the clock. This could be approved by other party members or just party leader to prevent griefing.

I also don’t like the 3 minute lockout at the start. My approach to questing is to put an LFM up as “In Progress” and GO! People are free to join when they can. Eventually, I get a full group with this approach without waiting to start questing. Because of the 3 minute lockout for Challenges I don’t open myself up to PUGGING and solo the challenge rather than group even though I would prefer to group if I didn’t have to wait to fill.

Solmage
01-13-2012, 10:55 AM
I'd also like to say that I love the incremental nature of the rewards. I don't want random loot drops out of this, I want mats, at a slow but steady rate. Just the way it is.

Except maybe goblets. Its a little silly that even at a horrible exchange rate it is still faster to do other challenges.

Wouldn't you like a luck component in addition to the slow and steady in which you have a chance to pull 1 WonderToken, redeemable for 300 of your favorite mat? Or just an additional 300+ mats to drop randomly in the end chest?

somenewnoob
01-13-2012, 10:58 AM
wouldn't you like a luck component in addition to the slow and steady in which you have a chance to pull 1 wondertoken, redeemable for 300 of your favorite mat? Or just an additional 300+ mats to drop randomly in the end chest?

yes.

Viisari
01-13-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm not disagreeing that the lich is a bit insane

Huh? Insane? My monk can basically solo him @ lvl 21 in full group. @ lvl 25 he's probably much tougher but unless they give him some new nasty tricks he doesn't have before that level he shouldn't be too hard there either.

And yes, not having a deathward against liches is called "doing it wrong".

Marilith is the one I'm more worried about myself, if it's just the lich there's nothing to worry about.

Also, as far as arcanes go, acid savants should mess him up pretty well.

<edit> Oh and the marilith isn't really *too* bad now, did you try killing her before they nerfed her to be something like third as powerful as se was? Before that nerf, now THAT was an insane ***** and a pain in the ass.

LucidLTS
01-13-2012, 11:38 AM
I love Crystal Cove (despite a few mechanics I dislike) and scheduled time off work when you announced Cove 2 & Cove 3

But the challenges haven't hooked me, and not for any huge DOOM!!! reason, just a few things that ought to be minor but seem to add up to "Meh, not that interested".

First, why I like the idea - I often have a chunk of 20-30 minutes I could play, and the thought of something I could hop on for a short single run is awesome. I like collecting a bunch of stuff I turn in for gear I can use, the end may be like a random loot roll but I feel more in control because I make visible progress each run.

So why aren't I playing any?

Partly I had a bad experience with the first pass, and you never get a second chance at a first impression. I tried a few runs (mostly the protect the extractors on the island) and failed every one. Failure isn't fun, left a bad taste. I know you have since made them a bit more solo friendly, but the initial impression stuck. I keep meaning to go back and give them another chance, but just don't feel that motivated. The main draw is the "I have only 20 minutes, I can do one run of this" so knowing it might be easier in a group is useless. If I have time for grouping I'll run a real dungeon.

Another "bad taste" you have since fixed (I guess?) is BtC vs BtA. I wasn't willing to waste space on multiple characters for this. I heard you intended to switch to BtA, but haven't been excited enough to see if you've actually done so.

The over level penalty is way too steep. If I fail at level, and get almost nothing if I try at a couple of levels below me, I have no incentive to practice and learn it.

I think the basic idea of the token mechanism for allowing limited access is excellent (casual players can try it out, if you love it buy it for unlimited access) but the implementation was poor. Tokens are BtC so you don't make a ton of alts just to get more tokens (a good limit) but that means they take a lot of inventory space on multiple characters. And they only stack to 10?!

Ideas to improve
1)Have the map show flashing red dots at attack points so small groups know where to go
2)Announce weekly the token handout for the next 10 days so I can arrange time with RL friends to tackle a specific challenge, that also prevents getting the big token handout on a character that can't use them. I usually am making plans on Wed for what times and what quests I'll run on the weekend.
3)Let Tokens stack to 100 and fit in ingredients or collectable bags
4)Ease up on the over level penalty

Snarglefrump
01-13-2012, 12:15 PM
Um, you do realize that the lich does 112 points of negative damage on you with just an item.

Deathblock description: "This effect grants immunity to all death spells and magical death effects (http://ddowiki.com/page/Deathblock)."

DDOWiki page on Finger of Death (http://ddowiki.com/page/Finger_of_Death): "Finger of Death is a death effect, and as such a Deathblock item, or Deathward spell will provide immunity."

You are probably thinking of other negative energy spells, such as Harm, which are not death spells. Deathblock completely blocks Finger of Death.

Edit: I did a little digging on the forums, and it sounds like DDOWiki may be wrong here. Can someone test it out and update DDOWiki if needed?

Viisari
01-13-2012, 12:53 PM
You are probably thinking of other negative energy spells, such as Harm, which are not death spells. Deathblock completely blocks Finger of Death.

No. If you don't have a deathward you will still get the negative energy portion from finger of death even if you save it. Deathward is the only thing that protects you from that, deathblock is not enough.

GoldyGopher
01-13-2012, 01:31 PM
The simple answer is I don't like the challenges. To me the challenges exacerbate all of the warts that I see in DDO when it comes to questing. I have run them occasionally, but I have not since the start of Christmas Break.
My first problem, while outside of the scope, is the availability of the Adventure Pack. I took a quick pool of my in game colleagues I know are Premium Players and asked how many of them purchased the pack, answer 1 of the 10 people I asked. The cost is too high and availability of daily tokens (whom several longtime premium players still don’t understand how they work) adds into the fact it will not be a popular seller. If I was a premium player I would not buy the pack.

Personally if you would have released the challenges one at a time rather than as a complete adventure pack it would have made more sense to me.

My next problem gets into the core of the design of the Challenges. What exactly is the point of the challenges? I understand the 5 or 6 things it could be, but to me it is just a quest with a funky scoring system. Unlike most quests there isn’t any story about the challenges, if you look at the Crystal Cove there is a story and reasoning for the challenge. I cannot say the half paragraph intro for any of the new challenges is umm satisfactory in explaining why and what the characters are doing. It would have made more sense if the challenges were spread out amongst the zones and linked into the zone’s story. For example putting both of the Kobold themed challenges in the Harbor rather than House C. What do any of these challenges have to do with House C, I am talking about Favor by the way.

I am not a big fan of timers, as I either finish way or early or there is not enough time.

I love Coyle like a brother, but I have told him it is time for tough love, same goes for protecting things wildly scattered across zones.

I dislike the fact the challenges are for groups and then you scatter to the four winds once you enter. I dislike the fact characters have to be self-sufficient because it how the quests need to be run.

I would mention my thoughts on scaling in these quests, but we might be in mixed company. It should not be easier for two level 15 melees than one level 20 arcane, something is broken.

The wards on Epic are an issue.

The AI is beyond bad. I keep telling myself it has to be broken because it makes no sense. One bosses run around like chickens with their heads cut off and can’t decide who to target.

I don’t understand the need for a new collectable crafting system. Isn’t the other 13 (or is it 18 I forget) systems we have enough?

I dislike the fact that to upgrade items you need to run quests over level (level 8 item needs stuff from level 12). Enough has been said.

Random Drops and Rare Drops to complete annoy me because I will never see either. I ran the challenge looking for the crests to open doors, which are random drops, and didn’t get one, what do you do? And the Rare drops vs. store bought items, please.

Lets took loot and rewards out of chests in the challenges, lets talk about the XP, lets talk the wacky favor rewards, lets talk...

With all the problems I see in the challenges the final problem and the killer, they are just boring to run. And I liked the Crystal Cove.

If you want to fix challenges for the masses you need to look at the individual challenges themselves and take the time to remove their warts. You cannot just take across the board claims and try to fix them, but that’s my opinion.

bigolbear
01-13-2012, 01:36 PM
brief input from me and the consensus of my guildies (who arent forumites)

1. challenge pack is a bit too pricey at the minute to warant buying it - BUT we are very happy with the decision to allow free to play access. Infact the free to play access you have provided suits our needs as were unlikely to grind the same quest over and over in the same day. From our perspective this content feels like a gimi to preemium types, with extra bonus's/less grind if you pay up. If turbine is making money off this pack then we say all good on the implementation.

2. regarding the daily challenge token - it would be nice if the daily challenge token vendor told you the shcedule - so for example if we realy enjoyed a rushmoor challenge we could all make sure to log on on monday night to play our favourate challenge. Perhaps just the next 3 or 5 days would be cool.

3. character lvl isnt taken into account when getting your tokens: I went to check them out on a lowbee first and now have 5 tokens i cant use till i lvl up more. I think minimum lvl warning is needed here before accepting the challenge tokens. (or did i miss something?)

4. Our resident favour monkey wishes they gave more favour.

5. Overall we think they are a worthy addition to ddo's arsenal of quests, but as a bunch of roleplayers were also looking forward to the more story oriented quests that ddo is famous for - packs we almost certainly will purchase eventualy.

6. I havent actualy looked into this but can you buy a 'daily challenge token' of your choice. This could be a very good way to make money, especialy if the price is right.. say 25 tp? A small amount to be sure but i bet it would add up real quick. think of this like people buying gest passes - but for them selves.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 01:50 PM
I'm probably not the type you want to hear from. I avoided challenges like the plague but perhaps the reasons why I did might be useful. . .

1) I avoid timed content if I can. The first few times I run a quest I like to loiter and take things in. I don't like to be rushed through stuff.

2) It is way too tied to the Crystal Cove event. I mess around on the island when the event rolls around but I detest babysitting the Kobolds. It never felt D&D to me, it felt like a Facebook game.

3) It doesn't feel like it has a serious goal. It doesn't seem like it advances an actual serious plot line. It is just learn it so you can farm stuff. It has a 'hurry through this so you can gather stuff' feel that doesn't appeal to me.

I get that I am probably not the type that this is meant to appeal but is I had to sum it up in one word it would be too gimmicky. Good luck with feedback from people that actually play them though. Hopefully you can improve them a bit for those people :)

On the contrary, we do want to hear from you and this is excellent feedback. Thanks.

sephiroth1084
01-13-2012, 02:18 PM
So, I haven't played much of the challenges up until now, but I've just done a few of them on my lvl 17 TR to get some XP. He's taking a one-and-down approach to all quests on his way to the level cap, and there is woefully little XP at level 15.

In the crystal-mining challenges, I feel like it's difficult to get a sense of what's going on if you're in a group. With the lowish timer for the area, people tend to run off and start scouting/looking for stuff, and leave those who don't know what the deal is at the start to defend the line. I was used to that a little with Crystal Cove, but it gets a little dull standing around and waiting for something to happen.

The emphasis on splitting up would be okay with me if the challenges didn't place such a heavy burden on players being self-sufficient. I've had a few failures in challenges because we had a couple of people that couldn't handle being alone with tough monsters for a minute, and when one or two people die from that, even the strong, self-sufficient characters tend to buckle under the stacked pressure as well.

On runs that fail, there is very little to no silver lining. There are no chests, so you can't say that you at least got some loot. The XP for optionals seems to only get applied to the completion XP, so you don't get much there either it seems.

I did a Picture Portals run that failed after about 25 minutes, and felt pretty ****** for doing so. One player had separated from the group to try and pick up star objectives while we went after the main objective and died. Two players, including the person that knew the quest best went back to recover his stone, and they died. The rest of us were left trying to navigate based on the leader's dictation, and we just spent 10 minutes running around trying to find the first boss. There was nothing to indicate, as far as I could tell, where to go, all the stairwells down, and half the hallways all look the same, and it felt really crappy to fail the quest because I just didn't know which way to go and couldn't find it in 6+ minutes of searching with 2 other people. There are very few quests in DDO that have that kind of failure condition (where not finding your way can result in a failed quest), and they all have indications about where to go and what's going on.


I also did a few runs on my capped, super-geared wizard with some groups of epic level challenges, and was rather frustrated that everything was immune to insta-kills, and that a lot of it (all?) seemed to have Death Ward, meaning I couldn't use any of the tools from Pale Master for big sections of the quests. It felt even more annoying than when epic monsters were immune to death spells.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 02:39 PM
As before, answering the questions in an itemized format.



At the risk of coming across as unruly, here is the rather large list of things I do not enjoy about them.

- They're Timed. This makes it very hard to play them in some of the more common mmo situations. Need afk to bio? Can't, timed. Coffee burning or stove beeping or cooking situation need attention? Tough, timed. Kid needs you a second? Well, there goes your progress, timed. The timed nature of these is somewhat necessary by their format, however its also one of their own worst enemies. Either these need to be kept very short (like 10, maybe 15 minutes tops; none of those 30-40 minute rushmore ones) where you could plausibly time those things outside them for the most part. Or, they need to be rethought to avoid, or provide alternatives for, any timers in future ones.

- Horrible Scaling. This makes it non-group friendly. By which I mean, I have 5 star'd about half of them solo or duo, including some on epic. It would be much more difficult to do that in a full group, simply because the mobs scale up so amazingly much. This is largely due to their hp scaling, specifically. It simply makes it take longer to do anything, which results in it going slower, which again works against the timed nature of things. They need to scale a lot less, especially in the mob hp department. As someone with over 160 cannith favor and tons of parts I assure you I'm not asking for the change out of an inability or unease with attaining the rewards. Its just not fun to tell people no, I don't want to group with you, you would be dead weight because of how Turbine coded it. While adding someone always bears the risk of them slowing you down with sub-par play, here it slows you down regardless of what they do... and that's not really much fun. (note, I consider hirelings not scaling it to be a wise choice, as it avoids punishing which classes you bring to a large extent; something that cannot be said of many places).

- Drastically Different Payouts. Some of them pay out well for your time, some of them decidedly do not. And, sadly, most of the fun ones (for me and my regulars anyhow) are the good payout ones. Why is this sad? Because I have to do the most reps, of the least fun missions. Getting the first chunk of ingredients wasn't so bad... but finishing up the rest feels like a horrible grind because I know when I log on for it that I'll be facing the same thing I don't like over and over. The trading hand ins to covert parts helps somewhat, but in the end its still (in most cases) shorter to do the mission you need (which I think it should be or the trade option would be too good), and for people with limited playtime it somewhat forces their hand into the quickest, not most fun, option. Consider taking some of the more popular or better paying ones, and trying to bring up some of the crappy payout ones up a bit. One of the castle missions (if I recall correctly) was paying something like 60% of the farmed amount on a run where the mission was higher level than the group... is that really necessary? In general, getting like 200-250 parts from there, when some other missions pay out like 350-450 is kind of disheartening, to say the least. Let alone some of the gravy ones which can go even higher. Requiring repeats for totally abstract reasons is not popular with me, heh.

- Unique Objectives Cause Unique Problems. I'm looking at you, Kobold Island. While defending things isn't new to DDO, defending them all over a whole zone largely is, rather than in a smaller area where you can combine arms. And, there can be more spots to defend than you can have people. This creates a situation where you really need several self-sufficient people to try and cover as much ground as consistently as possible, which caters to building very specific groups. To top it off, when defending only certain attacks/abilities are generally useful (depending on mob type, and the speed with which you need to control small groups of mobs) and combined you've rather alienated a large number of builds. The complaint here, as it were, is to maybe lighten up on some of the pressure. Maybe allow us to turn off a small extractor after a large is turned on, or spend shards on a 5 minute extractor cloaking in addition to turrets, or something. But you can't add a relatively specific group building requirement, and then make it a relatively general ingredient requirement, and not expect it to rub folks the wrong way.

- "Required" DDO Store Items. Yes, okay, I could farm for hundreds of missions and maybe enough would drop to not have to use the store. But practically speaking, if you want to gold star some of them (again, looking at you Kobold Island), you need to use the store. This is just unnecessary and insulting. Again, there's more than enough favor without doing those ones, and you can get ingredients without getting all the stars, so its not an issue of being forced to buy anything. But, it is something you cannot practically complete, without buying anything, and personally I feel nothing in the game should be beatable only by paying to do so. As the only thing its preventing is a 'completionist' feeling, whats the harm of fixing the requirements to allow this. If the argument over there is, well they drop so you could save enough up... well your drop rates may need to be adjusted. And also, you might consider making them mission specific if they're not already. I honestly didn't pay super close attention to what dropped where, but knowing that if I want a skeleton crest I can at least limit it to missions using crests, that's a way to feel like I'm working towards the right direction.

- The Chests. Boy do I hate them. They can spawn in a full inventory and delete something, that right there is a problem. And I can't avoid looting junk like arrows if I want to, so I have to spend extra clicks destroying or selling them. And they do not drop renown, which can be more valuable than vendor loot to some people. And they all require killing, every single one I can think of. No more stealth runs for rogues, or open locks, or optional objective spawns, etc. This is so unfortunate for the game. I know why: because they're timed, and because generally it wouldn't be good if people could blitz open them and recall out, nor would it be good if they ransacked after a few runs given the number of reps you have to do here. But for heaven's sake that doesn't mean they have to be sub par. Let chests of the same CR stack, that cuts down on the inventory slots taken. Stop them from deleting stuff when full and let it go into overflow, same as festival cookies or something (and cookies also stack, like chests should). Put renown in the chests so you don't have to look elsewhere to pay your daily decay before coming to house C. Maybe add a few (clam style so don't ransack) behind locked doors, or after talking and taking a non-combat resolution. Just put some work in on them.



And now, the smaller list of what I enjoy.

- Solo/Duo-ability. Yes, I just said above I dislike that its less advantageous to group. However, I also like that it is something I can log in and solo when no ones on, when I'm not feeling sociable, when I'm waiting on a raid to finish to catch the next one, when I'm timer-ed out on whatever's in the lfm, etc. Whatever is done to address the grouping issues above, maintaining the ability to solo and duo these is important. I would not want to see missions with objectives that required hitting 4 switches at once, or some other nonsense, where it was specifically designed to 'hurt' the solo player. I know you're not sitting there in your leather armchairs planning how to hurt people while sipping brandy and laughing maniacally (well, not Madfloyd anyhow) but when I see design like that, that's how it feels.

- Diverse Gameplay. Well, diverse relative to other missions/quests anyhow. I would like to see that maintained in the future, with the next ones perhaps ignoring kobolds, torches, extractors, pictures, and generally anything the heck having to do with the current set. Maybe one where you kill mobs and loot keys and open doors and facilitate a jailbreak of captured adventurers who help you as you unlock them (kinda like New Invasion or CO6 combined with Wrath of Flame post succubi in the middle combined with the fluff of Ghola Fan), so by the end you are leading a train of like 30 npcs you can buff up with bard songs and laugh when they all fall over to cometfall at once. But whatever you do, dont make defending them required. Let us send some npcs to their deaths for once... they're adventurers, they knew the risks. Freedom or Death! Anyhow its just one idea (which you are free to use) just don't give us more of the same in the next batch. I am tired of kobolds... its dungeons and dragons not dungeons and cute kobolds following torches (I mean stat wise they even have darkvision not scent, come on).

- Partly, the XP. Do not misunderstand me, the xp in here is generally poor. However, the 'first time' bonus parallel of unlocking the stars is great and fun. In other words, these missions pay off more the first time relative to others, and less on repeats relative to others. That is a model I am inclined to say is a good idea. I would like for content to be higher on rewards the first run, so that it is a game of diverse playing with changing story, and not a game of Shroud #500 hoooooo. I understand some repetition will always be needed... but consider keeping it at least as low as it is now, possibly lower. Its not too far worse than anything else, but its creeping up there. If anything, go lower, maintaining this level of reps for future items is going to be a bit much, imo.

- Item Rewards. Not to be confused with liking the items, I think the stats could definitely use some work (as usual, some clear winners, some losers, and some what were they thinkings... by this point players can pretty readily look at an item and call a spade a spade, the item devs should sure be able to do the same). However, not needing to run a ton of runs waiting for the last piece to drop has an appeal. And being able to choose tokens or loot, lets people cater to farming what they want to farm, and to both get some advancement in whatever adventures folks need. In other words, it saves 'I need an item out of quest A, and you need one out of quest B, so lets run both and half the time maybe I get something'. This is why, I assume, that the reps required was aimed high... since while it takes a tad more work, the payout is guaranteed. While the format of rewards (flexible so accommodating to different build's item goals, and more slanted towards time in rather than luck) is good, I again hope the items themselves and the reps required are examined.

I am sure there's more I'm forgetting, but this is a monster post as it is so I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks for the chance to offer feedback, cheers.

Thank you for your monstrously constructive post. Incidentally, we were squirmish about giving out too much XP for repeated runs of challenges because they do NOT ransack or diminish like regular quests.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 02:44 PM
I haven't read the whole thread so I'll likely be parroting some common concerns.

First off I'll preface this by saying I do not own the pack but do challenges, via daily token hoarding, on a regular basis with characters at levels from 4 to 20. I find them fun and there are very nice items to be acquired.

Now the meat, Pricing:
Way out of whack. The one sale was still overpriced, in my opinion. I mean if you take 30% of the letters away from "Way Too Much" you still end up with "Too Much".

Next, Pay to Win:
Having objectives that are only possible through DDO Store purchases is what leads to marketing departments being the ones "first against the wall when the revolution comes." I will grant that the items required also drop randomly within random challenges themselves, but at the rate that I have seen turret requisitions it will take a full year of 20 challenges a day to get enough to try and 5/gold star The Disruptor one time, then I'd still need to be everywhere at once right from the start.

Next, Scaling:
Brutal. If I do these with more than 2 friends, I shouldn't have (what feels like) 3000% increase in spawns and their hit points.

Lastly (for now, it's late and I'm tired) Nonsensical lvl8 items:
I've already asked about this in the Quests and Challenges forum, to no avail:

You can get ingredients for lvl4 challenge items at lvl4

You can get ingredients for lvl8 challenge items at lvl12, lvl10 if you trade for mephit wings.

You can get ingredients for lvl12 challenge items at lvl12, lvl10 if you trade for mephit wings.

You can get ingredients for lvl16 challenge items at lvl15.

You can get ingredients for lvl20 challenge items at lvl15.

^^ What's wrong with that picture?

Thanks. I'm happy that you were able to regularly play the challenges via the daily tokens.

I haven't seen the post you mentioned and I am aware of at least one situation that was recently remedied for an upcoming patch.

Hakushi
01-13-2012, 02:51 PM
From my experience, some of the challenges are fun, some less.

As some stated, Air Elementals in their current format dosn't add any fun factor to these, but rather an annoying even frustrating experience. The whole Knockdown mechanic in DDO needs to be reviewed, but that's another subject.

The Kobold Island challenges. While I like the idea behind these, The fact that's it's impossible or almost impossible to get more than 3 stars on Disruptor and Short Cuts needs to be reviewed. Getting Stars should give better reward than what it currently is (100 or 50 extra shards when you get a Star objective maybe?). Also even Kobold Chaos is far from easy to get stars on the highest difficulty setting, and this is supposed to only be lvl 15, why some epic quests seems much easier.

Some example, in The Disruptor, you have to keep the giant alive for 5 minutes and the giant can spawn when there's less than 5 minutes left in the challenge making it impossible to complete. The respawn rate for most mobs is way too fast, and the number of them creates lag. The time for these is way too short for the objectives or the objectives are way too hard for the time we have, I won't even talk about Orthons.

Also, I don't consider buying things with real money from the DDO Store an option to help in challenges, if it's the only way to get more stars, I consider that challenge as impossible. I prefer not give my opinion on this because it wouldn't be nice but let's just say it's a VERY BAD idea.

Kobolds in these challenges, unlike the ones in Crystal Cove, seems so squishy, they have very little hps and die quickly. Also, lava and tar easily available to walk on and kobolds don't always go very well, they tend to walk on lava or tar, and stand there doing nothing and slowly die. Also, the teleporters in Lava Caves, they seem to regularly gang up on teleporters and become unresponsive.

The favor we get from the challenges seems bugged, when reaching a 100 threshold, we're not getting the mail and 25 DDO Store Turbine points we're upposed to.

Another thing, Requisitions/Kobold Gems/Skeleton Keys, Why all these have to be BtC, could they be BtA instead to prevent them clutter inventory, or at least they could fit in a bag. If you can't let them fit in one of the current barg, create a new Challenge Bag and we can place those items in that special bag. Let that bag sold at the Challenges vendor for something like 600 Challenge ingredients of any kind or more.

Also, challenge tokens? I don't even bother with these since I'm vip and they clutter my inventory.

Overall, not a bad idea, they add a diffent kind of playstyle to DDO which isn't a bad idea, but the difficulty needs to be reviewed.

-Edit- I also forgot a point, the complete lack of reknown besides the small portion you get killing monsters is an incentive to run these less often. If I'm giving too much time for those, I have the feeling I'm nerfing my guild and this isn't a good thing.

Narishka
01-13-2012, 02:57 PM
First of all - I like the challenges (my route to affection: see below :D )

General gameplay

I like the timer and think that the timers are necessary for the kind of the challenges atm. because come on folks, everything would be achievable if there was no timer and remember it called challenge not quest and in my opinion most "challenges" encountered in real life also involve time pressure, comparison to other people (who is better). Nothing is a challenge in my eyes that has no limiting factors. For this style of gameplay we have what's called "quest". I'm not saying that every challenge must have a timer, but if new challenges are without a timer, they probably have something else people will complain about because this something is definitely not the sort of chill out at the beach and get a chest with "named" loot
I like the trade in ingredients system. It's easy. You can get the ingredients in an appropriate time frame. You can be certain if you achieve the 1st star objective that you will be rewarded. I don't understand most of the complaints as some people seem to run quest X 20, 40, 60 + times and don't get their desired item. Or running shroud, you have a limited chance of random ingredients per run - challenges: you can run them as often as you like and get as many ingredients of your choice as an end reward. Besides the craftable stuff you can even make epic dungeon token (weeeeeeh) or low XP elixiers (etc. but these interest me most).
I like that you can solo/duo most/all of them, I understand that some people don't like some "boring" roles so an idea (below) is that some new challenges are maybe more in the fashion: Stick together team ;D


Lava caves (my favorite together with Dr. Rushmores magnificient mansion)


I like that the position of crystal fields, teleport circles, crests, fire giant vary. You always have to scout around to achieve the best outcome
I just like the area :) All the floors and general makeup of the setting is nice and leads to exploration of the area
I like that e.g. progenitor crystals and the giant camp is always at the same location, would have been maybe too difficult if the whole dungeon would vary (e.g. New Invasion)
I dislike the red named Cloud giant for purposes that were stated: seems that you can't intim or get his aggro to pull him away
I'm a bit confused about the security ward crests, used them once to try them out but it seemed that the mobs were spawning nevertheless, WAI?
Invisible / deathwarded monsters (animals lions, wolves, scorpions) are annoying


Dr. Rushmores

I like the general concept of the Rushmore quests
Behind the door is easy to do and will certainly give new players an idea what to expect in moving targets and picture portals, at least you can get the general map concept
1st star objective is well chosen because you have always the option to do one of the 2 bosses that isn't guarded by elementals first and receive an reward! And I think it is not bad that you'll have to figure this out and as a next step figure out about the elemental guards: what does which elemental do/ what to expect of boss X
It never gets boring because of the timer and random crests, sometimes you just have bad luck because of that, but that happens and the quests have been 5 starred
I like Moving targets best because it's for me just fun to play and I like that the bosses are moving around, never to know where they are heading next


Kobold island (I like this one least of all)

I don't like killing the kobolds there :( That just makes me sad ^^) In the other two (Extraplanar and Lava Caves) we defend the little ugly ahem nice little creatures and they "work" for us and then we have to kill them for their shiny metal pieces they looove soooo much (oh their cries and Oh No's and not agains always break my heart ^^) Can't we kill something nasty instead? ^^
At some point, I want to achieve the maximum/best there is in the challenge (5 stars) and it's disappointing if that is just not possible (Kill 25 orthons, I also never saw an island djinn ^^) or you are forced to buy something in the DDO store only to "win" (Turetts) or if a goal is set that interferes with your general score (and ings in the end) like keep the disruptor 5 minutes alive


Ideas

The challenges atm. force the party to split up. An implementation of group friendly challenges that can only be achieved when the group is working together / team challenges would be nice
That would open the possibility maybe also to have a variation of "single" group challenges and two or multi group challenges where 2 or maybe even more teams would try to beat each other (no pvp but maybe things were they can "sabotage" the other group or so, of course there should be an reward for all participating groups - no reward - no fun :D
Finish out button for challenges and immediately get the reward (especially Behind the Door leads mostly to very long waiting times)
Remove deathward from animal types of monster
Fix the cloud giant in Lava Caves that it can be aggro'd
Fix challenge goals that are atm not achievable or only achievable via store purchase or ruining the best outcome, that ruins the fun


My way to affection for the challenges :)
I was very excited about the challenges and after 2 or 3 runs with the free tokens (I think it was kobold chaos) a friend and me decided to buy the pack because we didn't want to stop figuring a strategy out :)
At first, it seemed nearly impossible. We tried out Colossal Crystals next. For having a look at the quest, we chose a lower level. My first thought as we walked around was : WOW it's sooooooo huge...I'll never find my way through here - although I really liked the map itself because it was so complex. Well in the end, we gave up because we didn't know HOW we should ever reach that big crystal and went for a lot of time along and played the usual stuff, not thinking about the challenges anymore.

A few weeks ago I justed didn't want to have an expensive pack and not doing anything with it, so we started out again after I looked up a guide to Colossal Crystals in the forums (which was really good for a start :) ) The end of the story is: I'm really thankful that we got a guide for the first challenge as a start because I really like running the challenges now and figuring the best strategies out for ourselves. And after a while of trying out this and that you get a plan, and you improve and that makes it fun to me to see if you can beat your last score or gain more stars. Then the leaderboard - I just like to check now from time to time if some of the harder challenges are now four- or fivestarred and maybe try it myself or even set a new "record". (Here I was wondering, if you can keep track of this, can you keep track of fastest raid times? ^^ Just an idea maybe just display the best let's say 10 runs per raid, that would be sufficient, because it seems that at least some people are interested in that kind of stuff, see the different threads in the forums).

Fefnir_2011
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
I have to kind of echo the sentiment that the drawbacks of running the challenges in groups really hurt it. I played it a couple of times through the daily token program, and I can safely say i will rarely return. Why? The items are just more cove-epic generic, and I'd rather grind "real" epics and get more real epic items, so that leaves xp and grouping as the other two reasons I'd run them. Since i run in groups more than i solo now, it benefits us to grind the high-xp stuff like Wiz-king and Gianthold walkups than to try and struggle through a challenge clearly scaled far too much. It's because of things like this that challenges are very far down on my lists of packs to get, even before things like Sorrowdusk because at least that i can find a group for and run pretty quickly with friends instead of being stuck running it alone for ease of time.

Natashaelle
01-13-2012, 03:30 PM
i mean if you take 30% of the letters away from "way too much" you still end up with "too much".

qft

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 03:36 PM
I know it's a little off topic as Mad didn't ask for suggestions on new challenges, but if this challenge (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4255256#post4255256)were to be created, I would fully support, purchase, and would probably play the heck out of it if it were created. Everyone loves killing mobs, that's why we play DDO and get better lootz.

Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

slimkj
01-13-2012, 03:37 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?
I would enjoy that, but think more Hard/Elite (new) Weapons Shipment finalé for me. The intensity of that quest post-change is bloody amazing and one of the best experiences you can have in DDO right now, imo.

grodon9999
01-13-2012, 03:52 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

The most fun quest in the game right now is Elite Weapons Shipment, copy that.

Solmage
01-13-2012, 03:52 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

NOT like devil assault, that's the wrong way of doing it, YES like weapon's shipment, that's the right way.

Riggs
01-13-2012, 03:53 PM
Yeah, however it would work - a Challenge the is JUST about killing stuff would be awesome.

I hate kobolds. We remember the 500 runs of Waterworks too - and we never forget.

Keeping NPC's alive certainly has its place - but it is generally very annoying, and it should be a small place. Trying to keep anything alive that stands in aoe until dead is just annoying.

Just a straight up wave on wave battle. With loot every other wave, or end loot based on how many waves you defeat, or whatever.

Make the level 20ish battle, or any at level battle difficult, but not silly difficult - but on harder settings - it should get to very difficult - with a proportional increase in loot/xp/ingredients or whatever else the reward is.

Combat is fun. Herding kobolds is only fun for a small amount of people.

Solmage
01-13-2012, 03:55 PM
Huh? Insane? My monk can basically solo him @ lvl 21

Reading the whole thing is important. The person I was replying to was talking at low levels encountering the lich as a fighter, soloing.

BlackSteel
01-13-2012, 04:17 PM
NOT like devil assault, that's the wrong way of doing it, YES like weapon's shipment, that's the right way.

this, devil assault, even on epic is incredibly boring. Kill a wave wait 30s to a minute for the next to spawn. You end up with more idle time than fighting time.

devil assault would be alot more fun if waves came ~ 5-10 seconds of killing the last mob in the previous, or heck, just have a general timer, every 20 seconds the next batch comes in. Time for shrine could easily be reduced by half of what it is now as well.

Cyr
01-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

Got to say devil assault and kobold assault are two of the lamest quests in DDO.

In a challenge I would set it to be X number of mobs spawn each Y seconds. These mobs spawns get stronger and stronger as time goes on with no limit on time and no limit to the number of mobs total that can be out at one time. Quest ends when everyone is dead in the quest for twenty seconds. You gain stars and points based upon mobs killed. The rate of point gain goes up as the mobs get stronger and stronger so lasting longer actually does mean a better point/second ratio. XP would also have to scale based upon your score at the end.

Basically it is a spawns until the party can not fight any longer challenge.

The other one of this type would be spawns that come in waves that start after you kill the last wave with each successive wave being stronger and stronger. That one would be scored based upon mobs killed with stars based upon killing X mobs by time Y. Dungeon ends after X mobs being killed. For a consistent amount of rewards being given for a full set of mob spawns, but a longer completion time means less reward/minute.

Viisari
01-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Reading the whole thing is important. The person I was replying to was talking at low levels encountering the lich as a fighter, soloing.

I read all that was quoted :)

Tangleroot goggles are minimum lvl 7 and while I haven't actually tried challenges at lvl 10, almost every other quest at that level has mob HP's so low that even bosses die in seconds, not minutes.

I find that the best way to deal with the lich is to be at the portal right away when he spawns (ie. when main objective is completed). This is because the lich has random aggro, and if you get the aggro quickly enough you can keep him near the portal because there's nothing else within his aggro range.

If you're not quick enough then yes he can become problematic when he starts targeting the kobolds.

But as I said I haven't actually tried it @ lvl 10 so maybe he actually is over the top or maybe he's not and it was merely a bad strategy that lead to this conclusion. Almost all challenge become a joke with a good strategy, even solo as far as I've attempted them. Probably not at level 25 though :)

Also looks like he was a barb, not a fighter.


Got to say devil assault and kobold assault are two of the lamest quests in DDO.

The issue I personally have with devil assault is that there's way, way too much waiting. Of the 20-25 minutes it takes to complete on epic probably half is just waiting for the next spawn. It's a bit silly imo.

I think it would be fine if the next wave spawned right after or 3-6 seconds after the last one was killed completely. This would mean that if you're having trouble you could just save some archer in a corner while you catch your breath, but if you're in an experienced group that just destroys everything you'd get a new spawn right after the last one.

Would make it less of a snorefest it has become for experienced groups lately without making it too difficult for smart newbies.

Sarisa
01-13-2012, 04:31 PM
I would enjoy that, but think more Hard/Elite (new) Weapons Shipment finalé for me. The intensity of that quest post-change is bloody amazing and one of the best experiences you can have in DDO right now, imo.


The most fun quest in the game right now is Elite Weapons Shipment, copy that.

Concur. Even with the horribly bad drop rates of the chests, this quest is just FUN. It's intense, it's crazy, and if you have a charm happy caster, gets even more nuts.

nomaddog
01-13-2012, 04:44 PM
I am going to lay out how I feel about challenges as clearly and detailed as I possibly can, showing both the pros and cons of what I see in the system.

Pros:
- Something different to do from all the other types of quests
- Some really nice loot available
- Varied types of challenges at various level ranges

Cons:
- Prohibitive price point for challenge pack
- Linking favor rewards to star-rating
- Necessity of grinding quests to obtain ingredients for crafting

I'm sure there are additional things that I'll think of later, but those are the major ones. When U11 came out, I had to choose between purchasing Artificer or the new content. I chose the new content on the basis that I would be able to earn Artificer through favor once U12 came out.

U12 came out and I was instantly put off by the rather high purchase price of the content. I was severely disappointed because I was looking forward to some exciting new quests and playing a new class.

I refused to run any of the challenges for quite awhile, but finally caved in a couple of weeks ago. I used the daily challenge tokens that I'd saved up (they take up WAY too much bank space) and was underwhelmed with the ones I've ran (Did some in Rushmore Mansion and Extraplanar Mining). I was really hoping for more and have been sorely disappointed.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-13-2012, 04:45 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

Please NO. You've no idea how horrible are quests when you have to kill wave after wave of the same mobs. Even the Harbor xoriat quest when you need to wait like 10 waves of taken in order to advance the quest ... incredibly boring mechanic.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-13-2012, 04:47 PM
On the contrary, we do want to hear from you and this is excellent feedback. Thanks.

MadFloyd,

It seems to me that feedback as to whether to have Challenges in the future or not is out of the question. I get the sense you guys have already your mind made up to add more challenges to the game, but you want to make them more appealing. Is my perception correct?

Khellendros13
01-13-2012, 04:54 PM
Please NO. You've no idea how horrible are quests when you have to kill wave after wave of the same mobs. Even the Harbor xoriat quest when you need to wait like 10 waves of taken in order to advance the quest ... incredibly boring mechanic.

So don't do that particular challenge.

I fine most of the challenges irritating and only run them with people I like to play with otherwise. At least the challenges have a variety of styles. Don't like Lava Caves? Don't run it. Don't like killing mob after mob with a crazy spawn rate? Don't run that one either then.

Choice is good. We have choice. Make a choice. Don't choose for me.

Ganak
01-13-2012, 04:56 PM
Got to say devil assault and kobold assault are two of the lamest quests in DDO.

In a challenge I would set it to be X number of mobs spawn each Y seconds. These mobs spawns get stronger and stronger as time goes on with no limit on time and no limit to the number of mobs total that can be out at one time. Quest ends when everyone is dead in the quest for twenty seconds. You gain stars and points based upon mobs killed. The rate of point gain goes up as the mobs get stronger and stronger so lasting longer actually does mean a better point/second ratio. XP would also have to scale based upon your score at the end.

Basically it is a spawns until the party can not fight any longer challenge.

The other one of this type would be spawns that come in waves that start after you kill the last wave with each successive wave being stronger and stronger. That one would be scored based upon mobs killed with stars based upon killing X mobs by time Y. Dungeon ends after X mobs being killed. For a consistent amount of rewards being given for a full set of mob spawns, but a longer completion time means less reward/minute.



I rarely repost an entire quote, but this is really good IMO.


Weapons Shipment Elite IS a gnarly experience.



MadFloyd, would you share if you are giving thought to adding more weapons/items to the challenge rewards?


Would it be a good venue to fill some niche gaps in available treasure. For example, if you want a tower shield on a Defender, how many options do you have? Leviks or Madstone right?

If you want a Perform item on a bard, what are your choices? Bard's Cloak, Epic Shimmering Pendant, crafted cove helm...

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-13-2012, 05:01 PM
Choice is good. We have choice. Make a choice. Don't choose for me.

He is requesting for feeback. I'm giving it. They don't have infinite resources. If they need to choose what to use their resources for, I suggest they don't use that time developing this kind of quest and use it creating meaningful content instead.

sirgog
01-13-2012, 05:11 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?

Think something like that, but with more of a focus on boss combat than trash mob combat. Intense numbers of trash mobs (e.g. Weapons Shipment 6-player elite) cause serious technical issues on people running computers at the lower end of DDO's system requirements. When I want Weapon Shipment favor, I have to solo it for this reason.

Also don't copy DA's long gaps between spawns.

Here's an example of what I might like to see, taking the U11 House C quest mobs as an example.


Major Manufactuary Malphunktion
Challenge, CR 15-25
- This fight takes place in a small room, similar in size to Devil Assault. One shrine is available behind a door (smashing a crystal unlocks it)
- Strict ten minute time limit. This might require careful adjustment of boss HP (don't use the current scaling algorithim, give them carefully set numbers).
- On all difficulties (including non-epic), mobs have a version of the significant resistance to Charm and Suggestion effects that is a component of Epic Ward. If charmed, they break after 15 seconds and upon breaking free, gain a 30 second immunity to these effects.
- Allows any party size from 1-12, and scales accordingly.

Wave 1 - Spawns at 15 seconds (allowing brief buffing but no Axer packages): Four Bladesworn Paladins
Wave 2 - Spawns at 45 seconds, or earlier than that if there are 2 or fewer active mobs at any given time: Two Bladesworn Clerics, four more Paladins, and an Iron Golem
Wave 3 - Spawns at 90 seconds, or earlier if 3 or fewer mobs are active: Conundrum, a Rednamed artificer (think something like Praseodym from the LOB preraid, slaying this is the first star), four Bladesworn Tempests
Wave 4 - 150 seconds/4 mobs: Four Quorforged Juggernauts
Wave 5 - 210/5: This is where things start getting crazy. Twelve Bladesworn Tempests, two Bladesworn Clerics.
Wave 6 - 270/6: Two new bosses - Axiom, a rednamed Bladesworn Paladin that swings a Sword of Shadow (eSOS on 21-25) and hits like a freight train (110/swing on six-player 20, 220/swing on 25, scaling up to ~350 on 12 player 25 - don't worry, these guys swing s...l...o...w...l...y...), and Negation, a rednamed Warforged Wizard that packs a wide variety of buffs, debuffs, crowd control and a small number of damaging spells.
Wave 7 - 330/7: Twelve Bladesworn Tempests, six Bladesworn Paladins, two Bladesworn Clerics
Wave 8 - 390/8: Same as Wave 7, except in addition a variant of the Master Artificer electric trap (with one control crystal) slowly electrifies the room, starting from the edges and moving in to the centre. No safe spots remain if the crystal is not destroyed within 30 seconds. Damage is high enough that it is only healable with intense manadump healing, but the crystal's HP are low enough that the group can burn it down in 15-20 sec if they focus on it.
Wave 9 - 90 seconds after Wave 8. Dissolution, a red-named rust monster, spawns and is hostile to everything (players and the Warforged). He is tough, but doesn't have anything like the HP of the rednameds in the dungeon.


Star objectives:
1: Eliminate the threat posed by Conundrum (primary star)
2: Eliminate Axiom
3: Eliminate Negation
4: Have Dissolution deal the killing blow to Conundrum (note that this means keeping a hostile rednamed artificer alive for 6½ minutes, good luck :) )
5: Do not lower the forcefield next to the shrine.
6: Achieve a 5-star run on CR 20 or 25.

Rizzia
01-13-2012, 05:36 PM
Incidentally, we were squirmish about giving out too much XP for repeated runs of challenges because they do NOT ransack or diminish like regular quests.

I understand why you did this, however they have such a broad lvl range, and atm you punish yourself xp wise if you run them earlier than 18-19 (or 15 for the lower capped ones). How about if the acutal first time xp was lowered, but there was a first time bonus on each lvl. Otherwise I feel that I should ignore them on a leveling character untill the main xp quests dry up. (doing first time bonuses on challenges was a welcomed break away from the mindsunder grind).

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 05:48 PM
Okay, here's a few points that I didn't get to before...
When setting Teleporters down and getting attacked by mobs, the Teleporter can just disappear. This is a very annoying bug since you can only buy two teleporters unless you spend TP. Also, I've never heard anyone bring this up before.


I've never heard anyone bring this up before either.




I'm surprised that you haven't known about the lack of renown from the Challenges. That's been a major complaint since Lamannia. An easy solution would be to add it to the barter box...but I doubt this will happen. Why? Because from what I understand, the horrible move in the Sands pack with converting the token exchange from a end reward list to a single item barter box was to prevent renown farming. (As an aside, since the barter box change, the few people who collected the tokens in the Sands haven't bothered since there's a lack of choice from the barter box.)


We did add renown to challenges - upon monster kills. What we apparently didn't do was add the possibility of them showing up in supply chests.

Hafeal
01-13-2012, 05:58 PM
Go home. Or at least grab a drink and login and play. Hasn't your day been long enough?


I've never heard anyone bring this up before either.




We did add renown to challenges - upon monster kills. What we apparently didn't do was add the possibility of them showing up in supply chests.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 05:59 PM
Please NO. You've no idea how horrible are quests when you have to kill wave after wave of the same mobs. Even the Harbor xoriat quest when you need to wait like 10 waves of taken in order to advance the quest ... incredibly boring mechanic.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. I do know, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

sirgog
01-13-2012, 05:59 PM
When setting Teleporters down and getting attacked by mobs, the Teleporter can just disappear. This is a very annoying bug since you can only buy two teleporters unless you spend TP. Also, I've never heard anyone bring this up before.


Pretty sure I know what causes this. PMed Madfloyd and /bugged it.

It's getting tripped, incapped, killed or otherwise interrupted during the animation of the teleporter cast. The teleporter is removed from your inventory on starting this animation, but does not appear on the ground until the end of it. If that animation were quickened, this would be rare - if it were instantaneous, this would (probably) never happen.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 06:01 PM
MadFloyd,

It seems to me that feedback as to whether to have Challenges in the future or not is out of the question. I get the sense you guys have already your mind made up to add more challenges to the game, but you want to make them more appealing. Is my perception correct?

I wouldn't say it's out of the question, no. Would I say there is a high chance that we will make more? Yes. Without any changes? No.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 06:04 PM
I rarely repost an entire quote, but this is really good IMO.


Weapons Shipment Elite IS a gnarly experience.



MadFloyd, would you share if you are giving thought to adding more weapons/items to the challenge rewards?


Would it be a good venue to fill some niche gaps in available treasure. For example, if you want a tower shield on a Defender, how many options do you have? Leviks or Madstone right?

If you want a Perform item on a bard, what are your choices? Bard's Cloak, Epic Shimmering Pendant, crafted cove helm...

Honestly, we weren't planning to add more items to the challenge pack. That said, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Several posts about there not being much for healers gives me some pause for example.

Scraap
01-13-2012, 06:07 PM
We did add renown to challenges - upon monster kills. What we apparently didn't do was add the possibility of them showing up in supply chests.

Actually, you did. A guildie got stuck with a non-consumable renown token around about the second release version. Does seem to have a low instance of occurring though.

edit: as to pluses of the challenge system:

The short ones are short enough to pick up and drop while you're waiting, while maintaining a decent fluid-puzzle type of feel due to the mechanics of figuring out how to get from point a to point b in a semi-random format while throwing non-repetative curve-balls at you. That's a plus.

Same token, hyper-focused single-role builds suffer a bit since you do throw the unexpected at em. That's a minus for the less self-sufficient, as previously stated by a few folks.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 06:17 PM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’
- Kobold pathing issues
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion)
- Not happy with XP
- Challenges were supposed to be short!
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- Not balanced/fun for Melees
- Stars should increase ingredients
- Can’t find parties/LFMs
- Air Elementals NOT FUN
- Kobolds too weak
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- Need self sufficient builds to solo
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars
- No loot for healers
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
- No way to end the quest early
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF

Zirun
01-13-2012, 06:17 PM
I only have one major gripe with the challenges as I solo them, and that's bosses that you can't keep the attention of in kobold-defending challenges. Specifically, the lich in Extraplanar Mining and the cloud giant in Lava Caves. They have so much health (and many immunities in the case of the lich) that it's impossible to kill them quickly. Combine that with their wandering minds, and it's virtually impossible to not have kobolds die to either of these bosses when they spawn. I actually, literally give up on Extraplanar Mining if the lich spawns, because unless I can kill him I can't leave the area that he spawns or else all the kobolds die.

slimkj
01-13-2012, 06:23 PM
If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.
Think you got it, thanks for the attention and summary.

The addition of a challenge and some variants on it as an aside to an adventure pack/chain is a fine idea. I'd much prefer that over an all challenge update and you'd have a rooted theme/setting from which people could relate. Good idea.

jkm
01-13-2012, 06:24 PM
I'm sorry but you're wrong. I do know, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

I want to point something out here. The difference between love and hate is all in the execution here.

I HATE kobold assault. Its mindnumbingly boring with the 4 spawn points and wait for them to spawn.

Conversely

I LOVE both Tear of Dhakaan and Framework which is essentially the same type of quest.

KA is utterly boring, the other 2 however are reminiscent of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html

sirgog
01-13-2012, 06:27 PM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

...
- No loot for healers
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
...

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

MF

Also there is no loot for the 'Shield and 1½ handed weapon' combat style. A dwarven axe would be nice as there is already one high-quality (albeit niche) bastard sword.

I'm less concerned, however, as U11 included shields that are an order of magnitude ahead of pre-U11 shields, so this combat style has received love recently. Just not in U12.


If one item is added to the pack, it should be a +7 Wisdom item (level 20 tier 2/3, scale down from this for lower levels) that is not in the trinket or necklace slots. Maybe a cloak. If two items, a dwarven axe should be the second.



Oh and one more thing that is not related to itemization: The challenges are somewhat punishing of classes that do not have any way to increase their movement speed, such as Fighters. At the very least, you will use a LOT of haste potions, especially with the splitting up that is at the core of Challenge gameplay so far.

whereispowderedsilve
01-13-2012, 06:29 PM
Also there is no loot for the 'Shield and 1½ handed weapon' combat style. A dwarven axe would be nice as there is already one high-quality (albeit niche) bastard sword.

I'm less concerned, however, as U11 included shields that are an order of magnitude ahead of pre-U11 shields, so this combat style has received love recently. Just not in U12.

What about great swords? >><< *Just saying!* :P! :)!

Scraap
01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion


Actually, I find the leftmost challenges, those at the lowest levels, to be decent introductions as you add more complexity at the higher level unlocks. Perhaps changing the tokens from daily x specified to 'daily challenge area' (ie: kobold island vs kobold island: disruptor) would help those of us trying to help folks ease into em.



- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’

Typical issue with random at-level loot being worthwhile for someone 4 levels ago.




- Not happy with XP

It's kinda all over the place. Using em in lieu of slayers for my tr this end since they engage the brain more. Lava caves vs kobold island at level 17 is about 2x the xp, not least due to the star objectives being far easier to attain. Might wanna look at that.



- Stars should increase ingredients

/signed

DocBenway
01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
I've never heard anyone bring this up before either.


On the disappearing teleporter thing, I had this happen to me, but didn't mention it as the teleporter was still actually there and reappeared once a kobold used the central port crystal near the Foreman to get back to the torch line.

I seem to remember kobolds still using it to get back to Foreman while it was invisible, but I couldn't target/use it and started to run to "home base" on an Incoming! call when I saw it fade back into view as a kobold came back through.

Maybe I should have bug reported it, but since it seemed to correct itself and only happened to me that one time, I kinda forgot about it.

muffinlad
01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
The only thing I want to hit on is:

"Again...please...NO MORE INGREDIENTS". Yes, I know you have it. Yes I know you put it on the list.

I really wanted to post it again. (kind of like getting, more and more ingredients....these duplicate posts can be annoying, even when they are trying to help.)

Use the stuff we already get to do different stuff. That makes it more diverse, and gives more options.

The summary you provided is excellent (even when I do nothing but repeat parts of it....)

Regards,

muffinmacmuffin

Don1966
01-13-2012, 06:36 PM
Honestly, we weren't planning to add more items to the challenge pack. That said, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Several posts about there not being much for healers gives me some pause for example.

in some ways the way you typed this bothers me. i've looked at a lot of the items that have been introduced lately and it seems most are set up to be used by to dissimilar classes. for instance, the frozen tunic, fairly nice robe for an ice speced sorc but for some odd reason has ki regen on it, make a robe for sorcs and one for monks, don't make a robe for one and add a little something for another. i also saw this for some of the U11 item sets. now for the part of your quote i highlighted in red, don't make items for "healers", make items for clerics and favored souls. we have more than enough devotion and ardor items. we don't need any more **** to only boost healing abilities, give these two classes some items that enhance all of their offensive and crowd control spells. right now the only thing we can get that boosts blade barrier and cometfall are potency items of which there really needs to be more of. weapons that enhance casting and melee would be very nice as well and those weapons need to come in a wide variety of types, greatswords for WF FvS, maces for generalist clerics, kamas for clonks, longswords for WSS builds are just examples of what is needed. since clerics are extremely feat starved compared to wizards, they have to try to make up enhancing crowd control with items and that is difficult to do without gimping other areas.

Calebro
01-13-2012, 06:40 PM
- Air Elementals NOT FUN

This is a huge concern for many people, and it's an EASY fix.
The problem with Air Eles previously (when they were bugged to not knockdown) was that they weren't any challenge at all.
Then the spell pass happened, and Gust of Wind was added, and they removed persistent AoEs, which was nice at the time.
But then the bug was fixed and they began knocking us around again.... only now we had trouble killing them because you can't melee them and you can't use persistent AoE....

So take Gust of Wind away from them. Or at least put it's use on a decent length cooldown timer so that they can't spam it.
Problem solved.

Scraap
01-13-2012, 06:44 PM
This is a huge concern for many people, and it's an EASY fix.
The problem with Air Eles previously (when they were bugged to not knockdown) was that they weren't any challenge at all.
Then the spell pass happened, and Gust of Wind was added, and they removed persistent AoEs, which was nice at the time.
But then the bug was fixed and they began knocking us around again.... only now we had trouble killing them because you can't melee them and you can't use persistent AoE....

So take Gust of Wind away from them. Or at least put it's use on a decent length timer so that they can't spam it.
Problem solved.

Either that, or say... half to a quarter of the timer of a giant's irresistible knock-back (so 2-4 times as frequent)? There's a bit of merit to the folks complaining about not being able to close in, but the proposed solutions usually tend to come in the form of outright removal, not modifications.

hewimeddel
01-13-2012, 06:48 PM
I just finished my first Challenge (Dr. Rushmore's Mansion: Behind the Door) whit my Paladin lvl 13 and here is what i have to say about it:

1) The Free Tokens are very nice, but how is one supposed to find out that they are there? I only did realize this in this thread, because it is nowhere advertised, not in the game and not in the store!

2) Before the beginning a duration is given. I thought "now that is IT! No more guessing how long "medium" might be and whether i do have the time to finish the quest".
But i was WRONG entirely: The quest duration got longer and longer throughout the quest! It is a really dumb thing to give a duration and then adding additional time - how should anyone make a plan? At least, there should be given a maximum duration and this should be mentioned before starting the quest.
Adding a time limit to quests in general is a really good idea, because this reduces a lot of guessing "Can i play the whole quest in my limited time?"
I will repeat this quest when i have more time. It seems that the advertised "13 Minutes" can easily be doubled!

3) The Quest was much fun, but i was a little lost about where to get the crests. These seemed to be random without any help where the missing one might be and finding the same thing over and over again.

4) I did obtain the quest objective and gained 1 Favor Point, at least it says so on the "Challenges"-Overview page. But this Favor Point is not noticed on the "Patrons"-page. (I do not know if these are the right names for the pages because i use the german client)

5) I did play the Challenge once, but i seem to have used two tokens

6) Getting the Chest into the inventory is a very weird mechanic. I ran around and searched for a chest after obtaining the quest objective. I cannot see why this has been made so different to the rest of the entire game.

7) Quest difficulty was all right, but i seemed to get hit by many spells. After all, i am a paladin and have really high saving throws (all >20!)

bye
hewi

Kaish
01-13-2012, 06:49 PM
I hate the new Weapon shipment. Problem is.. its only appealing to a very small amount of players with very high end gears. Its nearly impossible to do otherwise.
I really think it would be a mistake to take that road for challenges

Glenalth
01-13-2012, 06:49 PM
I've never heard anyone bring this up before either.

I've had the disappearing teleporter thing happen once when I got danced 1/2 way through a placement and then promptly forgot about it.

CaptGrim
01-13-2012, 06:51 PM
in some ways the way you typed this bothers me. i've looked at a lot of the items that have been introduced lately and it seems most are set up to be used by to dissimilar classes. for instance, the frozen tunic, fairly nice robe for an ice speced sorc but for some odd reason has ki regen on it, make a robe for sorcs and one for monks, don't make a robe for one and add a little something for another.

I disagree with this completely.

I was just having a discussion about this last night, that we need more stuff that is good for 2 roles or build types on the same item, but best in slot for one that does both.

I not sure what more you would expect for a sorc on the robe, it is pretty dang good as is. Also it is decent for monks as well. If they did have an outfit for monks and a robe for casters they wouldn't be any better than the outfit built for both.

Now to what you said about Items for divine classes that aren't necessarily built around healing I do agree with, DDO needs more of those :D

Tsuarok
01-13-2012, 06:51 PM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’
- Kobold pathing issues
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion)
- Not happy with XP
- Challenges were supposed to be short!
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- Not balanced/fun for Melees
- Stars should increase ingredients
- Can’t find parties/LFMs
- Air Elementals NOT FUN
- Kobolds too weak
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- Need self sufficient builds to solo
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars
- No loot for healers
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
- No way to end the quest early
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF

In many of the challenges you need self-sufficient toons to group too, as you're often expected to split up and be able handle things on your own.

Dopey_Power
01-13-2012, 07:01 PM
That's a whole wack of negative feedback, MF. Here's something positive, to try to tip the scale ever so slightly. Whoever it was that came up with the lines for the Rushmore bosses, the Kobolds, and the Benevolent Lantern Archon is doing something VERY, very right.

Angelus_dead
01-13-2012, 07:03 PM
I've never heard anyone bring this up before either.
What happens:
When a player clicks the challenge tool (torch / teleporter) in inventory, the game immediately checks if you have any and then deletes one from inventory. Then your character plays an animation, and at the end the tool is spawned in the world. If something happens (like a monster attack) to interrupt the animation, the tool is essentially deleted.

What should happen is that the tool is only deleted from inventory at the end of the animation, not earlier. (And it could be said that many limited-use abilities in the game shouldn't have their cost deducted if the animation was cancelled)

Meat-Head
01-13-2012, 07:06 PM
Also there is no loot for the 'Shield and 1½ handed weapon' combat style. A dwarven axe would be nice as there is already one high-quality (albeit niche) bastard sword.

I'm less concerned, however, as U11 included shields that are an order of magnitude ahead of pre-U11 shields, so this combat style has received love recently. Just not in U12.


If one item is added to the pack, it should be a +7 Wisdom item (level 20 tier 2/3, scale down from this for lower levels) that is not in the trinket or necklace slots. Maybe a cloak. If two items, a dwarven axe should be the second.


All of this.

slimkj
01-13-2012, 07:21 PM
I hate the new Weapon shipment. Problem is.. its only appealing to a very small amount of players with very high end gears. Its nearly impossible to do otherwise.
This is not true. I have run it on a few chars and some not well geared at all and succeeded.

Also, different challenge levels could have different spawn rates and/or frequency. L21-23 something like Hard WS, L24-25 something like Elite WS. You should know you're going to be challenged at those levels.

Parsley
01-13-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm a premium player that used free tokens to run the challenges, enough so to earn favor for artificer. So I liked the challenges enough to do that. I didn't like them enough to buy the challenge pack, but I recently changed my mind. These are the two things that I like enough about challenges that got me to buy the pack: First, it's the fastest way to earn epic tokens. Second, it's a quick loot run on epic with supposed +3 tome drops. Without those, I wouldn't run challenges anymore except to help friends.

Other things I like: I like being able to turn in ingredients for xp potions or guild renown potions and being able to swap one ingredient type for another. I love the mansion because of its zerg run feel. I also like that the challenges are not restricted by epic timers.

Things I don't like: Along with the list already posted, I dislike that a disconnect (DC) from the game will kick me out of the challenge if I'm solo. Also the challenges don't award turbine points at the 100 favor milestones. And already said, but I hate the grind of running challenges. If I want an item, I can see how many times I need to run the challenges to get it, plus double or triple that number if I want to make it an epic item with all the bells and whistles. I'm not a fan of shroud crafting either because of the grind, but I can buy my shroud ingredients off the trade channel or auction house. So having to get 1 item (a supreme shard for example) from a quest to make something is fine. It proves I ran the content at least once. Being forced to gather 600+ of something else is not fun, especially if I don't like the content.

I feel all star objectives should be achievable each run, and not something the planets need to align perfectly to get. Since other posts detail the problems with kobold island and obtaining crests in the mansion, I won't repeat them. Because universal tokens are available in the ddo store, if I spent the cash on a token to earn stars, I'd expect each and every star to be achievable on any run. I don't mean easy to achieve, but 100% possible to achieve.

**edit** Under weird issues, one time during a colossal crystals run, one of the torches in the middle of the line mysteriously disappeared. No party member had it in their inventory. I joked to the artificer, "Your dog must have taken it." About an hour later, while running Undermine, the artificer's dog dies. A torch drops at its stone. Yeah, the dog had the torch all along.

bhgiant
01-13-2012, 07:42 PM
Just to make sure I understand: a challenge featuring wave after wave of mobs a la Devil Assault?
Just to echo everyone here, no no no no no no no no…. no. More like this…


Got to say devil assault and kobold assault are two of the lamest quests in DDO.

In a challenge I would set it to be X number of mobs spawn each Y seconds. These mobs spawns get stronger and stronger as time goes on with no limit on time and no limit to the number of mobs total that can be out at one time. Quest ends when everyone is dead in the quest for twenty seconds. You gain stars and points based upon mobs killed. The rate of point gain goes up as the mobs get stronger and stronger so lasting longer actually does mean a better point/second ratio. XP would also have to scale based upon your score at the end.

Basically it is a spawns until the party can not fight any longer challenge.

The other one of this type would be spawns that come in waves that start after you kill the last wave with each successive wave being stronger and stronger. That one would be scored based upon mobs killed with stars based upon killing X mobs by time Y. Dungeon ends after X mobs being killed. For a consistent amount of rewards being given for a full set of mob spawns, but a longer completion time means less reward/minute.
Survival mode where you KNOW you aren't coming out alive. The story? Who cares!?! It would be fun! And it could be as long or short as you want it to be. Done with it? Just let yourself die.

Thanks for all the communication. I can see the great potential for Challenges. I like the idea of having a short and fun something to do between quests. And btw, that final list of yours pretty much sums it up.

Deamus
01-13-2012, 08:11 PM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’
- Kobold pathing issues
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion)
- Not happy with XP
- Challenges were supposed to be short!
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- Not balanced/fun for Melees
- Stars should increase ingredients
- Can’t find parties/LFMs
- Air Elementals NOT FUN
- Kobolds too weak
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- Need self sufficient builds to solo
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars
- No loot for healers
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
- No way to end the quest early
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF

No Cleric/Fvs Items !!!!

+7 wisdom item? or something useful for clerics/fvs ?

Havok.cry
01-13-2012, 08:18 PM
This might have been covered, but: what do you think of adding in ingedient multipliers as rare drops. If you pull one it multiplies you ingredient reward enough that it will cover 1 tier of item (assuming you complete) or maybe have it multiply the ingredients by the number of stars you get.

KillEveryone
01-13-2012, 08:19 PM
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)


It isn't deathblock on mobs that players don't like. Many don't mind casters tossing it as a buff.

Epic ward with death immunities that are programmed onto every critter that really shouldn't have it such as rats and spiders is what people don't like.

I'd really like it if you fixed how dispel and disjunction work so that I can cast it on mobs and remove their buff. Right now, we have no chance at success. I'm hoping you all fix this which is why I don't mind mobs casting death ward. I don't mind mobs buffing, I dislike blanket immunities.

Don1966
01-13-2012, 08:23 PM
I disagree with this completely.

I was just having a discussion about this last night, that we need more stuff that is good for 2 roles or build types on the same item, but best in slot for one that does both.

I not sure what more you would expect for a sorc on the robe, it is pretty dang good as is. Also it is decent for monks as well. If they did have an outfit for monks and a robe for casters they wouldn't be any better than the outfit built for both.

Now to what you said about Items for divine classes that aren't necessarily built around healing I do agree with, DDO needs more of those :D

making a dual role or build item that is best in slot for 1 role will almost invariably leave the other role with an item that is very bland unless both classes have a lot of synergy or said item has an excessive number of effects. an item for clerics and monks would be an example, an item for sorcs and monks isn't an example. the tunic is a fairly nice robe for sorcs, i said so in my first post about it, not sure how you got that it wasn't out of that post. as far as divine items, i am pretty much convinced that no one at turbine plays a divine, or if they do it's a melee spec FvS. or if they do have divines, they draw straws to see who has to stand back and be a healbot.

Riggs
01-13-2012, 08:36 PM
ok, i've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what i'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in no particular order):

- challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- no sense of “i could get lucky and get a nice reward this run’
- kobold pathing issues
- sick of collection – worn out by cc
- feel like i must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. Crest drops in mansion)
- not happy with xp
- challenges were supposed to be short!
- lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- not balanced/fun for melees
- stars should increase ingredients
- can’t find parties/lfms
- air elementals not fun
- kobolds too weak
- should allow < 20’s to enter epic
- deathblock on epic mobs sucks (why do you keep doing this, turbine?)
- don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- no serious story or d&d oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- yuck. Feels like facebook game, not ddo
- no renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- need self sufficient builds to solo
- shouldn’t need ddo store to complete stars
- no loot for healers
- tired of ingredients - stop with the ingredients
- no loot for acrobats (include a quarterstaff)
- no way to end the quest early
- we messed up some of the lvl versus ingredients.
- think more like weapons shipment for future challenge.

If you feel i've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, i thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

Mf

+1

WielderofGigantus
01-13-2012, 08:37 PM
I want to point something out here. The difference between love and hate is all in the execution here.

I HATE kobold assault. Its mindnumbingly boring with the 4 spawn points and wait for them to spawn.

Conversely

I LOVE both Tear of Dhakaan and Framework which is essentially the same type of quest.

Um, no. Tear and Framework are not the same type of quest as KA.

KA is defending one point against waves of monsters. Tear is a dungeon crawl, and Framework is either a stealth mission or an extermination quest. In KA you mostly just sit there and wait for the monsters to come to you. In Tear and Framework you can hunt them down with changing scenery and changing environment.

The reason I hate KA and love Weapon Shipment (which is a much closer comparison) is that the mobs change in Weapon Shipment: they become more difficult and more powerful, and need different tactics for dealing with them. KA doesn't change. Just more of the same.

PsychoBlonde
01-13-2012, 08:46 PM
Personally, I really enjoy the challenges, but they're kind of . . . erratic. Some you can do easily and get thousands of parts. Some you squeak through and only get a couple of hundred parts. Some are easy to get 5 or 6 stars. Some are ridiculously difficult.

Some specifics:

The extraplanar palace line needs more crystals or better ways to increase your score. They're very easy to run to 5-6 stars, but your score is tied exclusively to how many crystals you collect, and there are only so many available.

The scaling in the Kobold Chaos quests with full parties is INSANE, especially since some of the objectives require you to have 2 or more of the large extractors online simultaneously. The mobs spawn so fast that you can barely keep aggro off the extractor. Forget about KILLING the mobs. It also needs to be easier to pull aggro off the extractor, and you need to fix the mobs so that they can't vanish INTO the extractor where it's all-but-impossible to see or target them. We should be able to Reconstruct extractors, too. The benevolent lantern archon doesn't drop enough shards at a time, either. The Disruptor should appear on the map. In Short Cuts, you ought to be able to go straight back through a portal you've come OUT of, unless it's depleted. This would accomplish two things: a.) make them easier to deplete and b.) make them actually useful as short cuts. As it stands, they're basically worthless, because you almost always come out on the far side of the map from where you'd like to be. If you think it'd be too easy to deplete the portals then, increase the number of times you have to hit them in order to deplete them. It's also been my experience that it takes too long for the Djinn to spawn in the one where you have to kill him to get a star.

The Rushmore's Mansion quests are a ton of fun. I can't think of any really beneficial ways to tweak those except maybe making it so the teleporters in Picture Portals actually go somewhere useful. You're supposed to be able to use them to circumvent doors, but all they ever do is move you around on the same side of the doors that you're already on. It's a waste to even activate them, because then you can potentially lose a star because the mobs went through one.

Lava Caves are pretty good too. Oh, in Colossal Crystals, it ought to be possible to disable the security ward with disable device skills. Personally, I'd like it if disabling it the hard way let you keep the star for not disabling the security ward. Most of the challenges don't have traps, which kind of sidelines character classes who invest in traps.

The powerups that drop are cool and fun, but most of the time they don't drop anywhere where you'd actually be USING them. Rooms full of breakables are rarely full of mobs and vice versa, so you wind up running around desperately looking for something to use Quad Damage on. Supply chests generally drop off in the middle of nowhere, and by the time you get back to the action, the powerup is gone. This could be fixed by, say, giving a chance for dead mobs to drop powerups in addition to breakables.

There also needs to be a Spell Point Replenish powerup to go along with the Life Replenish powerup. It'd also be nice if the Supply Chests in the Kobold Chaos runs gave a benefit for the ENTIRE PARTY, not just whoever had time to go find and whack the chest. Getting SP back would be great, particularly since there isn't a shrine in that run. Melees often have trouble keeping themselves alive, and casters/healers get drained of sp as a result.

If you're going to start adding even more challenges, I'd like to see some that can be done with a raid group, and (maybe, depending on how it's done) some that are PvP. The PvP ones would have to be cleverly done, however, because just pitting different characters against each other would be stupid. It'd be better to give the groups of players conflicting objectives, so they're (for example) all struggling over the football instead of just all struggling to kill each other. Also, both teams should get a reward, so you don't have runs where one side gets everything and the other gets nothing, it's just your performance should determine how MUCH reward you get. This could really add a lot to the nearly-nonexistant (and mostly pointless) PvP part of the game.

Deathdefy
01-13-2012, 09:41 PM
Mathematically impossible to get stars are a problem I don't think made it to the list.

Shortcuts: Kill no kobolds + Extractor Rate >20/second for 20 seconds.

Disruptor: Just barely possible to upgrade all 3 larges + leave skele up for 5 mins even in theory. Will never happen on live; and needs more leeway please.

jkm
01-13-2012, 09:46 PM
Um, no. Tear and Framework are not the same type of quest as KA.

KA is defending one point against waves of monsters. Tear is a dungeon crawl, and Framework is either a stealth mission or an extermination quest. In KA you mostly just sit there and wait for the monsters to come to you. In Tear and Framework you can hunt them down with changing scenery and changing environment.

The reason I hate KA and love Weapon Shipment (which is a much closer comparison) is that the mobs change in Weapon Shipment: they become more difficult and more powerful, and need different tactics for dealing with them. KA doesn't change. Just more of the same.

They are the same in that the goal is to kill a bunch of like mobs. The DIFFERENCE is in the execution. In one I go to the mobs, in the other THEY come to me.

MadFloyd
01-13-2012, 10:02 PM
They are the same in that the goal is to kill a bunch of like mobs. The DIFFERENCE is in the execution. In one I go to the mobs, in the other THEY come to me.

True.

jkm
01-13-2012, 10:34 PM
Either that, or say... half to a quarter of the timer of a giant's irresistible knock-back (so 2-4 times as frequent)? There's a bit of merit to the folks complaining about not being able to close in, but the proposed solutions usually tend to come in the form of outright removal, not modifications.

Honestly, they should apply the GoW knockdown to every character and not just halflings.

Ungood
01-13-2012, 10:48 PM
Honestly, beyond they were painfully unfriendly to melee builds, I did not mind the Challenges.

And umm.. No.. Not weapons shipment. Really, I like the idea that not every quest should about what a great killer I am.

sirgog
01-13-2012, 11:10 PM
Re: A Devil Assault themed future challenge

This would be polarizing. Some would love it, others think 'meh' and others would hate it. Just look at the Pit for another similar example - I'd bet that 50% of the playerbase consider it one of their 5 most hated quests, and 10% consider it one of their 5 favorite quests.

DDO has room for more content like that. Just design it in a way so that the 50% that don't like it can just run it once per character for favor or ignore it altogether - resource tradeins are a good way to achieve this.

BossOfEarth
01-13-2012, 11:47 PM
I haven't played Challenges yet, although I am hording tokens on my main.

Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that I still haven't bought the Challenge pack. I really enjoyed the Crystal Cove. I was very excited about the Cannith Challenge pack, followed all the updates and news and developer chats religiously. I honestly was going to buy the Challenge pack as soon as it was available -- I didn't even want to wait for a sale! But since there was a free preview available (in the form of tokens) and the Challenge Pack was 20% more, I settled on hording tokens and waiting for an LFM. But I never saw a LFM. Since it has been released I leveled up my TR from to level 13 and I still haven't seen a single LFM.

My playtime is limited: weekdays from 3am - 6am (Turbine / Eastern time zone) and so a very big component of what packs I buy is based on what I see people posting LFMs for. I have a pack that no one runs when I'm on, and I don't want to make that mistake again.

And now, I've got a jumble of challenge tokens and no idea where to start or who to invite for an lfm. And whenever I think about running to the bank to rummage through my page and a half of tokens it just puts me out of the mood. And so I put it off. After all, I see plenty of LFMs for epic so I may get a chance to use those tokens yet! :)

Lootwise, I'm not excited about anything so there's no pressure to get in there and farm. Especialy since, in the meantime I'm struggling to complete every quest before I'm beyond their level.

oradafu
01-14-2012, 12:45 AM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’
- Kobold pathing issues
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion)
- Not happy with XP
- Challenges were supposed to be short!
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- Not balanced/fun for Melees
- Stars should increase ingredients
- Can’t find parties/LFMs
- Air Elementals NOT FUN
- Kobolds too weak
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- Need self sufficient builds to solo
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars
- No loot for healers
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
- No way to end the quest early
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF

Yes. That seems to cover many of the points. Although it does appear there was one thing that is missing was brought up by Sirgog:


Also there is no loot for the 'Shield and 1½ handed weapon' combat style. A dwarven axe would be nice as there is already one high-quality (albeit niche) bastard sword.

I'm less concerned, however, as U11 included shields that are an order of magnitude ahead of pre-U11 shields, so this combat style has received love recently. Just not in U12.


If one item is added to the pack, it should be a +7 Wisdom item (level 20 tier 2/3, scale down from this for lower levels) that is not in the trinket or necklace slots. Maybe a cloak. If two items, a dwarven axe should be the second.

So even my original series of complaints about the loot should be amended since originally I wrote:


Calomel weapons are currently:
* Rapier for Finesse
* Scimitar for TWF
* Falchion for THF
* Longbow for range bow users
* Hvy Repeater for Artificers and Mechanics
* Handwraps for monks

I'll assume that a Khopesh fighter will be specced with IC: Slash and probably some of the TWF chain. Acrobats sometimes forgo the THF feat and are probably specced in IC: Blunt. To me they seem to be the odd man out on this weapon, since they will have a double sub-optimal option compared to others. But maybe that's just me.

So currently, the Challenge quests (not just the Calomel weapons) cover every melee type but Acrobats and S&B. It would be nice if the Devs included all melee styles (if not all weapon types) in major packs or high priced packs (such as Vault). It would be nice for the Devs to remember all the melee types and not be absentminded, like I was when I originally complained.

oradafu
01-14-2012, 12:53 AM
Re: A Devil Assault themed future challenge

This would be polarizing. Some would love it, others think 'meh' and others would hate it. Just look at the Pit for another similar example - I'd bet that 50% of the playerbase consider it one of their 5 most hated quests, and 10% consider it one of their 5 favorite quests.

DDO has room for more content like that. Just design it in a way so that the 50% that don't like it can just run it once per character for favor or ignore it altogether - resource tradeins are a good way to achieve this.

I know alot of people hate the Kobold Assault, Devil Assault type quests. It's not something that will please all players (but what quest has 100% of the population loving it?). But in their defense, there is one group of players that seem to love Kobold Assault type quests: young new players. Sure, the vets don't like them but kids seem to and new blood/revenue is always good. So having one challenge designed like Kobold Assault seems fine.

Additionally, I agree with others that it should be designed without a timer and ends just when you die (whether intentional or not). I'd even remove the shrines (or at least have a variation without them).

Angelus_dead
01-14-2012, 01:43 AM
But in their defense, there is one group of players that seem to love Kobold Assault type quests: young new players.
I have observed that new players do not enjoy Kobold Assault.

Although the pace of attacks is slow, each attack wave hurts them, and it takes such a long time that they tend to run out of resources before the 50% point. Then they usually give up and try again, often recruiting more newbies to go in with them and see it through to the end. When they finally do beat it, they are massively disappointed that their hours of investment has earned barely anything.

oradafu
01-14-2012, 03:28 AM
I have observed that new players do not enjoy Kobold Assault.

Although the pace of attacks is slow, each attack wave hurts them, and it takes such a long time that they tend to run out of resources before the 50% point. Then they usually give up and try again, often recruiting more newbies to go in with them and see it through to the end. When they finally do beat it, they are massively disappointed that their hours of investment has earned barely anything.

I agree with everything that you stated about new players doing Kobold Assault. Yes, the kobolds usually hurt (and kill them multiple times) and they use up most (or all) their resources. Yes, they recruit almost anyone to help them and usually sucker more new players into the quest. Yes, they gain little to nothing (except for a repair bill) from the quest upon completion but all low-level quests have horrible chests (unless a Ioun stone drops, but new players have no idea what they are worth) and the horrible XP is usually dwindled to nothing because of multiple re-entries or power-leveling to finish the quest.

However, I've noticed it's the younger players that will continue to enter the quest to beat it. It's not vets and rarely adults that will run it more than once. Once "experienced" players get favor from the quest, they rarely return unless it's to test out a new spell, to collect some prayer beads or to collect cove gems after using a pot.

.....
Two more thoughts about future challenges.

1) A non-timered challenge with wave after wave mobs that only ends after you are killed should have a Coonskin cap as a named end reward.

2) A Challenge based on "the rock under the shell" game (which has disappeared from the harbor the last time I checked) should be added. There will be multiple chests in a room and using various skill checks (so all player types can do this Challenge), the player must pick the real chest that's not a Mimic. When successful, the player gets copper or gold or plat and the challenge advances with an additional chest with a higher skill check until the player picks the wrong chest. So the first attempt would be two chests with a 50% chance of getting the right chest via guessing, then the second attempt would be three chests with a 33% chance of guessing correctly, then the third attempt would be four chests with a 25% chance of guessing correctly. Picking the wrong chest will activate the Mimics and they will attack. If the player survives the attack, they can loot the chest but the Challenge ends and the player must start over. This quest should be called "Don't touch Chester, you molester"...

sephiroth1084
01-14-2012, 03:39 AM
The big problem with the swarming quests (Kobold Assault, Devil Assault, Weapon Shipment, etc...) is in timing. If everything comes too quickly, it becomes far too easy for mediocre groups to get overwhelmed, while on the other hand, if things come too slowly, all but the weakest of groups are left feeling frustrated.

I like Devil Assault, but the time between spawns is way too long. I drop a disco ball just as stuff teleports in, and most of the time, it lasts through 2 sets of mobs before I have to drop another...sometimes it only lasts through one, because I threw it down in anticipation of stuff coming in and it took about 30 seconds between the last creature dying from one group and the next group showing up. Lot's of standing around.

I don't know if it would be possible, but could the spawns be triggered at a rate according to how quickly they previous batch was dealt with? The longer it takes a party to kill a group of mobs, the longer the time between spawns to give them some breathing room and recovery time, with a hard cap of maybe 1 minute. Faster groups could perhaps get waves spawning back to back.

Claver
01-14-2012, 03:47 AM
True.

Exploration!

It's the secret to Everything.

sephiroth1084
01-14-2012, 03:49 AM
No time limit.
Each wave functions like a wave in Devil Assault. That is,each wave consists of a number of smaller groups of monsters that spawn in at a time.
The first wave is designed to be rather difficult to deal with for its level. Think final wave of Epic Devil Assault: group of about 6 orthons, 3 fire elementals, 1 or 2 casters, and 0-2 archers.
The waves come fast. If you aren't quick enough, the next spawn comes right on top of the one before it--no waiting for everything else to be killed.
The waves scale up in difficulty rather swiftly, getting to the point where they include multiple raid boss-type enemies at once.

Basically, the challenge is set up to throw monsters at the party hard and fast, basically aiming for a TPK, especially after the first wave. Star would be awarded for surviving through each successive wave. You gain a completion for surviving the first wave, but gain completion-like XP and rewards for each successive wave survived--basically, when you clear out the last monster from the current wave.



It would be total mayhem, with stuff that hits very hard, and would require a well-balanced group employing solid strategy to get through even the first wave. By the time you get to the third, it should also be requiring well-built and well-geared characters.

Hokiewa
01-14-2012, 05:39 AM
I like Devil Assault, but the time between spawns is way too long. I drop a disco ball just as stuff teleports in, and most of the time, it lasts through 2 sets of mobs before I have to drop another...sometimes it only lasts through one, because I threw it down in anticipation of stuff coming in and it took about 30 seconds between the last creature dying from one group and the next group showing up. Lot's of standing around.



This. DA makes me want to vomit everytime I'm twirling my thumbs for the next spawn.

sirgog
01-14-2012, 05:55 AM
This. DA makes me want to vomit everytime I'm twirling my thumbs for the next spawn.

The timers were designed back when epic trash had 6000hp and full epic ward, and were not lenient then. It was the hardest 6-person Epic in the game, and you needed the occasional breather.

Along comes U9 and drops the HP to ~3000 if you don't have a necro-specced Wizard (a pretty reasonable number), and 1hp if you do. That was what made the quest go from a frantic-paced war of attrition to the present 'Wail, wait 30 seconds, Wail, oh look, one saved, melees you have something to do, wait 30 seconds, Wail'.

It was fun once, back when it was an intense battle.

Viisari
01-14-2012, 06:30 AM
The timers were designed back when epic trash had 6000hp and full epic ward, and were not lenient then. It was the hardest 6-person Epic in the game, and you needed the occasional breather.

Along comes U9 and drops the HP to ~3000 if you don't have a necro-specced Wizard (a pretty reasonable number), and 1hp if you do. That was what made the quest go from a frantic-paced war of attrition to the present 'Wail, wait 30 seconds, Wail, oh look, one saved, melees you have something to do, wait 30 seconds, Wail'.

It was fun once, back when it was an intense battle.

Even back before U9 it was pretty boring with a good group iirc, just mass hold everything and have full ****** dps with heavy picks destroy the trash. So you did end up waiting a lot.

Only difference is that now it's even more boring with a good group, and if there happens to be a good necro caster or two along for the ride then the melees will be even more bored than the casters :)

Not so good groups can still get their asses kicked though.

<edit> What I'm saying that it hasn't been an intense battle to good groups for a long, long time even before U9 was here. If you spot a random pug and join it though, you can get a really intense battle (and usually lots of resources used, completion or no completion), I've done that from time to time and it's actually quite refreshing.

So basically the issue with eDA is that while it currently can be difficult for newer players, it hasn't been difficult for good players for a long time and is actually pretty boring imo due to all the waiting. It is however two tokens and lots of larges plus some other stuff, so it's still very much worth running.

Ungood
01-14-2012, 07:56 AM
I love the polarity of the posts about what quests are actual challenges.

For many, eDA was simply not doable, for the right groups/teams of people it is, as others have said, too easy.

Is there even a happy medium in that the Challenges could fall into? I do not see it. Which is maybe the biggest problem that Turbine faces with this. The Challenges by what they are, come across as an "Everyone should be able to have fun with this" type set up, because they don't really have a story line to them, in the same way CC was put out to be fun for everyone. But, that is not what really happened. And in the end of the day the problem is not in the game, but the diversity of the player base.

And there really is no happy meeting ground among the groups beyond "Love of the game" it is the difference between people who play some flag foot ball with their buddies right before the super ball to get into the spirit of the game, and people who are playing in the NFL.

The Challenges need a bit more diversity among their difficulty setting to make them fun for the whole family, sort to speak.

They should have a "Normal, Hard, Elite" setting, which would allow for the same run to be played more intensely (IE: Harder mobs, More of them, coming at you Faster, with less time to win, etc) which would only affect overall drop of ingredients by +10% for Hard, and +25% for Elite as well as offer the standard +50% exp for first time, and +80% first time, per level of the challenge.

IE: The first time you do level 10, you get +80 for elite, then if you do level 11 on elite you can get +80, then level 12, etc, etc. That way, it would amp up the EXP value of the Challenges as well. Making them more enticing to revisit each level for more then just another few mephet wings.

That way, players who have the skills to play harder stuff can farm faster to outfit their toons better. But it would also offer them challenge, while at the same not not overrunning the more average player base who may actually want to play with the challenges as well.

But lets revisit something:

Do new players like quests like KA?
Not from what I have seen. Typically they go in, get over run, try again a few more times, if they win, they get some paltry reward, that does not even cover the repair costs, and are left mostly with a feeling "That quest sucked"

However, Vets on the other hand, from what I have seen, look at KA like a nominal trial test of their fresh off the vet-boat newest flavor build. If it can't beat KA then it sucks type of deal.

However, on the other side of that, from my sampling again, a challenging quest that new players really seem to like is: Irestone.

Every-time I go to Harbor and do the pugs, Irestone is always brought up. KA is brought up almost apologetically like "I really want to get that quest done, can you help me guys, please" but Irestone, man, that is like "We have the group, lets do this!"

So, building off my sampling, I need to ask what makes Irestone a fun and challenging and KA more of a trial? Well first off, that there is a good pace of the fights, they can make it go as fast or slow as they like, you can buff before them and then "charge" into this encounter, it's quite thrilling to be honest. Random hidden mobs moving about add some surprise to the situations, as well as mostly hidden mobs at the camps offer some good fights. Combine this with enough loot to cover the repair bill and a bit more makes the whole thing worth it.

KA, is just this feeling of being overrun, if you are over powered for it, it becomes a joke quickly. Equally so, if you are just on the border, it becomes a small matter before attrition sets in and the group gets overrun. If you are not quite up to par, then the beginning is just a joke as the group gets massacred.

Since newer players typically fall into the second group, the quest becomes quickly frustrating, not fun.

On the same token, If you are in the first group, the quest can become boring, and if you are in the third group, it's downright discouraging.

Take WS, at it stands, it's not longer a quest for Melee players, maybe an AA, might not be a total waste to walk into it. but, honestly, just like every quest of it's vein, it's all about CC and AE damage at this point. Ergo, casters own it, and Melee may as well be fashion models.

Now am I raging on the casters? Not really, I am more so making a point about the nature of the quest, and the people who make a remark about it's ease or difficulty being contingent on who is playing it, and what they are using to play it. And more to the point, what they say that makes it easy.

daddio42
01-14-2012, 08:24 AM
I apologize for coming late to the discussion; doubly sorry if this topic has already been breached.

The most intense challenge-type experience that I've had in DDO was the original devil attack on the Marketplace. (Reprised in the quests Devil Assault and Chronoscope.)
From events leading up to the climax. we thought that we knew who/what was attacking and what would (probably), be a good party composition. We didn't know how many
waves were coming, where they would occur, or what would be the final outcome. Or whether we'd survive. During that event, there were some 15-20 instances on Thelanis
throughout the day and night.

There was some lag, but we're advised that those issues will soon be solved.
I don't know how or if that can be recreated, but I enjoyed the the extreme uncertainty or the outcome or rewards. (Got my 1st large bags during this event.)

Ruphus
01-14-2012, 09:07 AM
- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’ easy remedy, add more chests, or even the ability to buy supply/loot chests with ingredients
- Kobold pathing issues Amen!
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
Collection itself, I don't think is the issue, it's repeating the same exact collection/crystal cove thing over, and over, and over, and over again. I find Kobold Island a LOT more interesting than the crystal cove rehashes, and I would not complain about collection challenges as long as it's not "Drop torch, get kobold to follow, protect Kobold, blah blah blah
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high Price was a bit high, but it should be somewhat high, I think you guys just went a little overboard. BUT, the free tokens was a WONDERFUL idea, I think this is the first mod/pack you guys allowed everyone to sample, which is a VERY good thing I think
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive) Amen!
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds) Some time based missions are good. But it would be nice if there were about as many NON timed challenges as there are other challenges. TIME should not be the challenge.... The difficulty or CHALLENGE should be the objectives.
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion) Amen!
- Not happy with XP The Exp isn't terrible, overall, I think this is just a minor ordeal, small tweaks in a few areas is all thats needed, the longer missions should reward a bit more XP, nothing to crucial or bad enough to stop people from playing them or buying the pack
- Challenges were supposed to be short! Just like other notes, some should be short, some should be medium, some should be long.
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus I don't have a problem with the number of them, more is always better in my book.... my problem would be with the ingredients, see below
- Not balanced/fun for Melees This can easily be fixed by just balancing out the enemies/situations a little better
- Stars should increase ingredients I agree somewhat, but it shouldn't be a huge increase for the first couple stars, but maybe percentage based, like first star gives 5% more, then 2nd is 10%, 3rd 20%, 4th 30% 5th 40% and 6th 50%, stars should be something worth going for every single time, but not kill you if you fail to get them all
- Can’t find parties/LFMs Simple improvements to the challenges will fix this
- Air Elementals NOT FUN Amen!
- Kobolds too weak Amen!
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic [ This is a minor issue, shouldn't be something to waste to many resources on
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?) Amen!
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content See my comments about Collection missions. It's not the "Defend/escort/potect" content that is the problem, it is that it's the same basic concept with only the slightest tweaks being rehashed that is the problem. Plus, things like weak kobolds that die to a stray magic missle kill peoples desire to do anything that involves protecting.
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!! This is a problem that really isn't just about challenges, this is something that affects most content
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on Some plot/story would be kind of nice, but it's really just fluff
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO I actually kind of like that challenges are like mini games within a bigger game and break the monotony of just run quest, get loot, get xp, repeat cycle until your max level, but it would be better if scores meant more, or you could do more actions to change your score
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests) Amen!
- Need self sufficient builds to solo Again, really just some balance tweaks are needed to address this
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars Amen!
- No loot for healers Amen!
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS Amen! Really, 4 ingredients (1 for each challenge place plus the epic version, would have been more than sufficient, heck you could have just made Epic Ingredient, High level ingredient and Low level ingredient and been done with it, but the mass number of ingredients in the game are getting waaaaay out of hand, and it's not just challenges, it's EVERYTHING
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF) Amen! Don't forget Dwarven Axes, Longsword, Khopeshs, Rapiers, etc etc etc. Honestly, if they are not going to be named items, you should just make a Mournlode/Calomel AND Elemental version of each weapon. Yes it's a lot more to add to the barter box, but this way you include every possible character type out there (Read: you will sell more packs this way, as everyone will want the items)
- No way to end the quest early Amen!
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients. Amen!
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge. I actually disagree here. I LOVE the idea of a slaughter type mission, and I tried to bring it up a few times before, but I will emphasize it below

MF
Comments in Yellow

-- Slaughter Challenge -- Take the fight to the Drooam! (can use devils, undead, anything here, I like the concept of beating back the Droaam army)

Levels 10-25, Objectives Enter the forest where the droaam fleet arrived and decimate the Droaam Army.
No Time limit. No Rest Shrines, No Rez Shrines.

You enter a fairly large area of cleared out jungle. Off to to the distance you see "camps" of Droaam orcs, ogres, kobolds and gnolls that you may engage at will. Sometimes you will get 1-3 orcs, sometimes it will be a leader with a group. The monster should fight as a group. Approaching any tent/camp should trigger more critters to spawn, with generals/chiefs spawning randomly.

1st Star - Slay 250 Droaam and 1 War General
2nd Star - Slay 500 Droaam, 3 generals and War Chief Kazuk (one really mean orc priest, with a very large regiment around him.
3rd Star - Destroy 25 Tents/Camps (explosive barrels you can "use" not just destroy will be placed near them so you don't have to use fire spells)
4th Star - Slay 1000 Droaam, 5 generals and War Chief Brakkus (really mean ogre with another large regiment
5th Star - Kill all the War Chiefs (maybe 4-5 total)
6th Star - Destroy all the camps (maybe around 50 or so total camps, each with it's own trigger point that spawns a group of critters)


I really don't like the "Waves and waves" of monsters, it's either slow and boring and doing the same thing over and over again, or it's to fast for some builds, plus if something comes up mid-mission, your hosed and lose all progress.

Ultimately, "Wave" based missions are just another way of using a Timer, and that in and of itself, is bad. I'd rather see more "Kill lots of bad guys missions" but lets see a different approach.

How about more guerilla/stealth type attacks? Going both ways, your wandering toward your target and critters jump out of the tree's to attack you at random points. Same for players, lets see rogues really get a chance to use stealth to their advantage and sneak up on a group of enemies and set a trap that really hurts them and gives the rogue a huge combat advantage.


How about a mission where you assist an army of good guys battling out an army of bad guys, this gives healers a different type of thing to do, helping keep the opposing army alive, would also give casters more use for debuffing spells like Slow, Symbols, Weakness, Curses etc as you are not just trying to keep a certain target alive, but enough of the good army alive and kill enough of the bad army to advance?


Just some thoughts

BananaHat
01-14-2012, 10:44 AM
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)

...

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

When adding new loot, please also consider the favored weapon lines for clerics/favored souls. You forgot greatswords with the challenges! There always seems to be a nice named greataxe, but the Lord of Blades demands more greatswords! :D Having a longsword, shortsword, scimitar, and longbow are all great, it is a step forward, but please remember all deities. Are there any picks (or other "less popular" weapons) in the new challenge loot?

On a similar note, don't forget Warforged are people too! (Or rather, aren't) You added a mournlode docent, kudos, but the new frozen tunic does not have a docent counterpart. Are there no WF cold savants or WF wizards that like being cold? No Warforged that would appreciate having freezing ice on any weapon? I have read it doesn't stack with the bonus damage from a runearm, which makes me sad, my WF arti would love to wear that frozen tunic as a docent and have it work. (Lightning strike [Toven's] + freezing ice [Frozen Tunic] + crushing wave [Calomel] + corrosive salt [Calomel] would be awesome, but then again I'm a sucker for proc effects)

I was greatly disappointed to hear in another dev response that there were no new challenge items planned on being added with whatever new challenges you guys are coming up with. What I would truly love to see would be one elemental-based "mass produced" cannith weapon of each type, not just greataxe/khopesh/rapier/longbow. Make each one different.

You have fire, water, air, earth covered, so how about you pull out some more similar to the greensteel combos? Throw in little extras like you did with the 4 elemental weapons you put out. Throwing in stuff like improved paralyzing, improved roaring, and improved destruction is a nice way to put "other" effects on DPS type weapons and fit thematically.

Elemental Greatsword of Radiance?
Elemental Throwing Hammer of Dust?
Elemental Shortsword of Smoke?
Elemental Kukri of Ooze?
Elemental Shuriken of Ice?
Elemental Dwarven Axe of Vacuum?
Elemental Bastard Sword of Lightning?
Elemental Heavy Mace of Magma?
Elemental Maul of Mineral?
Elemental Shortbow of Ash?
Elemental Dagger of Salt?
Elemental Falchion of Steam?
Elemental Heavy Repeater of Thunder?

You get the idea. I will admit I am a bit of a loot junkie, I like filling out my characters with fun and shiny toys, but I'm sure many other player are the same way. I am more likely to repeat a quest if there is something I want from it. Running a quest/challenge, and not needing anything at all, takes some major fun components out of it. I may like the quest, I may like the people I'm running with, but without some sort of shiny new toy to look forward to, the drive is much lower to run it as the run will just net me a handful of plat.

The more builds you make viable by putting in the equipment to support them, the more people are likely to try "nonstandard" and other builds. Dagger build? :confused: Yeah, right... but if there were some high end daggers (or again, any "less popular" weapons) people might give them a try. (And have a new toon to level, and spend more time in the game, and pay more money to the game.... you see where making options available gets you?)

Silverleafeon
01-14-2012, 10:45 AM
This topic should prove interesting. :)

As you all know, U12 saw the release of a new type of content - Challenges.

I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.

For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?

For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?

General feedback is encouraged, but again, please limit feedback to gameplay and respect other’s opinions. I expect this to be a very polarizing subject.

Thanks in advance.

I very much enjoyed Crystal Cove, hence I am viewing the challenges as "Candy being saved to enjoy later on".

Atm, I am working on leveling up my completionist project thru the bravery bonuses and very much appreciating this change.

Having not played the challenges, I am in no position to give advice, but perhaps some sort of "first aid kits" could be left at the entrance for those characters that are lacking in self healing?

Artos_Fabril
01-14-2012, 11:31 AM
Lots of issues with weapon types and what is available. How about this?

Have the challenge reward weapons actually be an "enchantment package" that can be applied to any weapon, or any weapon with a class (1-handed, slashing, ranged, throwing, shield)
Same with armor.

You could either use the Cannith crafting system: Turn in ingrediends for a "Calomel Shard (level 16)" or "Mournlode Weapon Shard (level 12)" or "Epic Frozen Armor Shard"/"Epic Frozen Robe Shard" that uses up all three affixes in the cannith crafting altar.

Alternatively, you could incorporate it into the barter box UI: add the basic weapon (of the appropriate type) to the ingredients list for the tier 1 weapons, and an upgraded weapon of the appropriate type for the later tiers.

You could require a standard blank, like those sold in the harbor, or a craftable blank (which could allow adding guild slots or metal types to these weapons), or a new sort of blank on a Chalenge Equipment Vendor right in House Cannith.

Angelus_dead
01-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Basically, the challenge is set up to throw monsters at the party hard and fast, basically aiming for a TPK, especially after the first wave.
The huge problem with such a challenge is how completely it depends on mana potions to have power.

Solmage
01-14-2012, 11:55 AM
Honestly, beyond they were painfully unfriendly to melee builds, I did not mind the Challenges.

And umm.. No.. Not weapons shipment. Really, I like the idea that not every quest should about what a great killer I am.

I actually found my melee insanely more useful in several challenges than my wizard, who could just stand there and stare at stuff, or consider blowing my entire mana supply killing 2 named enemies in a shrine-less quest, and then stare at the enemies with an empty bar.

By comparison the melee could kill stuff reasonably fast, and with with a hireling he was > wizard in any challenge were stuff has deathblock.

"I like the idea that not every quest should about what a great killer I am." - HUH?? There are precious few of them where it actually matters. Sure, many of them have the extremely minor benefit of completing quicker if you kill the trash quicker, but almost none require you to kill said trash fast. Heck in many you just end up kiting the trash because it takes too long to bother with it (epic chrono, f.ex).

If anything, one more weapons shipment styled quest would be an awesome addition. Even though I despised with a passion grinding it out 100 times to get a baubble I loved the first 50 or so runs. But this brings up an important point, gaining 'something' each run that brings you closer to your goal is important. I'd love being able to earn 'baubble tokens' so to speak so I can guarantee one in say 40 or so runs.



Re: A Devil Assault themed future challenge

This would be polarizing. Some would love it, others think 'meh' and others would hate it. Just look at the Pit for another similar example - I'd bet that 50% of the playerbase consider it one of their 5 most hated quests, and 10% consider it one of their 5 favorite quests.

DDO has room for more content like that. Just design it in a way so that the 50% that don't like it can just run it once per character for favor or ignore it altogether - resource tradeins are a good way to achieve this.


Please start calling it weapon shipment themed, *I* would be amongst the ones that would hate a devil's assault themed quest :p but love the WS idea. :cool:

I do love The Pit. I hate Coalescence. I love WSE. I dislike DA.

However, you do have a point.

porq
01-14-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm glad that you have a fairly comprehensive list of feedback for future challenges, but the burning question for me is...


Will you change the House Cannith challenges to reflect this feedback?

The only reason we have been able to give you this feedback is by pointing out what is wrong with the current challenges, e.g. some challenges are too long/time pressure too much, scaling hurts too much, not balanced for melee/anything that isn't self sufficient.


There are some problems that will be easier fixes than others. If you decide to buff the kobolds or change how much scaling affects mob hp, those aren't as serious fixes as changing the quests themselves to address time pressure or the type of quest(defend, escort, facebook feel).

Solmage
01-14-2012, 12:18 PM
I have observed that new players do not enjoy Kobold Assault.

Although the pace of attacks is slow, each attack wave hurts them, and it takes such a long time that they tend to run out of resources before the 50% point. Then they usually give up and try again, often recruiting more newbies to go in with them and see it through to the end. When they finally do beat it, they are massively disappointed that their hours of investment has earned barely anything.

Wouldn't this be a good argument for giving KA some love in terms of more loot/named loot? Doesn't have to be awesome, a single named item perhaps? A light mace of kobold smashing (+1 reptile bane) or something?

Angelus_dead
01-14-2012, 12:23 PM
Wouldn't this be a good argument for giving KA some love in terms of more loot/named loot?
Kinda, although there are many dungeons you could say need loot improvements.

But overriding that is the way that Kobold Assault gameplay tends to not be very fun. If you're bad at Kobold Assault then you struggle and die, but if you're good at it (understand the few simple rules to victory) then it's super-easy and boring. I wouldn't suggest trying to make an encounter like that more attractive by adding special payout.

Sure, definitely raise the XP, but the next step would be to look at changing the mechanics for spawning and resting, before thinking of any named items.

donfilibuster
01-14-2012, 03:26 PM
It'd be good to make new challenges be less of a puzzle, of the kind you follow a path in a certain order.
In general it'd be good to have things that can make you think at the very battle rather than being able to plan ahead.

I recall the dragonlance saga had a few of them, like the guardian that got tougher the more players he faced.

Then there were using an orb to lure a dragon into a corridor trap rather than fight them, despite deemed dishonourable.

Then were the teleporter maze where you'd find it had a few more nasty tricks than just disorienting you.
(on top of the porters the corridors mirror each other, and shrink people so they couldn't lift a coin from the treasury)

There was also the forest maze of nightmares, where you had to figure out what was real on the spot.

On fortified locations you also had to keep track of guard shifts, disrupt dark rituals before completed, save prisoners on the way, etc.
(so even if you know the map you need timing, making a diversion, holding a position, etc.)

Maskerading monsters were a recurring problem, be it disguise, illusion, delusion or shapeshifting.
You were also continually tracked so would always be on the move, both from search parties or monsters (e.g. the silver arm's wraith).

Those are just some examples, there could be others that are fantasy themed:

Hercules twelve trials were challenge in the sense they were almost unbeatable.
In the maze of Minos Theseus needed the thread to find the way out. (that was a proper labyrinth)
Perseus sought the head of medusa by looking in the mirror, etc. (clearly easier to think that do)

In some Lancelot tale he had to disguise to fight a tournament in name of some maiden, thus having to fight pals without being found.

In Earthsea the wizard knew he could get into the maze but not out, end up befriending the priestess.
He would use his magic to hold out the spirits of the unnamed and the collapse of the tunnel, while following her lead in the dark.

In an old TSR book about the Tarrasque, the wizard knew he couldn't defeat it alone, gotta be lured back to the prison or join forces with the villain.

Taimasan
01-14-2012, 05:28 PM
I would like to see a few Combat Oriented Challenges.

Also I would like to ask that people who bought the pack like myself. Not be charged for further editions to the pack. It was a hefty pack to buy. Thats all.

oradafu
01-14-2012, 07:44 PM
But lets revisit something:

Do new players like quests like KA?
Not from what I have seen. Typically they go in, get over run, try again a few more times, if they win, they get some paltry reward, that does not even cover the repair costs, and are left mostly with a feeling "That quest sucked"

However, Vets on the other hand, from what I have seen, look at KA like a nominal trial test of their fresh off the vet-boat newest flavor build. If it can't beat KA then it sucks type of deal.

However, on the other side of that, from my sampling again, a challenging quest that new players really seem to like is: Irestone.

Every-time I go to Harbor and do the pugs, Irestone is always brought up. KA is brought up almost apologetically like "I really want to get that quest done, can you help me guys, please" but Irestone, man, that is like "We have the group, lets do this!"

So, building off my sampling, I need to ask what makes Irestone a fun and challenging and KA more of a trial? Well first off, that there is a good pace of the fights, they can make it go as fast or slow as they like, you can buff before them and then "charge" into this encounter, it's quite thrilling to be honest. Random hidden mobs moving about add some surprise to the situations, as well as mostly hidden mobs at the camps offer some good fights. Combine this with enough loot to cover the repair bill and a bit more makes the whole thing worth it.

KA, is just this feeling of being overrun, if you are over powered for it, it becomes a joke quickly. Equally so, if you are just on the border, it becomes a small matter before attrition sets in and the group gets overrun. If you are not quite up to par, then the beginning is just a joke as the group gets massacred.

Since newer players typically fall into the second group, the quest becomes quickly frustrating, not fun.

On the same token, If you are in the first group, the quest can become boring, and if you are in the third group, it's downright discouraging.

Take WS, at it stands, it's not longer a quest for Melee players, maybe an AA, might not be a total waste to walk into it. but, honestly, just like every quest of it's vein, it's all about CC and AE damage at this point. Ergo, casters own it, and Melee may as well be fashion models.

Now am I raging on the casters? Not really, I am more so making a point about the nature of the quest, and the people who make a remark about it's ease or difficulty being contingent on who is playing it, and what they are using to play it. And more to the point, what they say that makes it easy.

I guess I must be the odd variable when it comes to Kobold Assault, since my observations for the quest is that younger new players like it. Shrug, it happens.

I will agree that Irestone is the quest that everyone seems to like.

I also completely agree that the chances to Weapon Shipment destroyed the ability of melee's to solo the quest. Prior to changes, I could solo it on elite with melees. Now, it's almost an instant wipe when the Orthons appear. Granted, I haven't tried it on Casual, but it's not worth doing the quest on Casual. This change didn't bother me much, since the main item (the Bauble) in the quest is one of THE caster items.

...
Going back to complaints about storylines lacking in the Challenges, I agree but I can also see where some challenges don't need storylines, especially if they are mini-games. Yes, it would be nice but not necessary all the time.

Take the Kobold Assault/Weapon Shipment type of Challenge. It could be a bar brawl. It could be Tharashk Arena. It could be a battle in which you lost, but you held the army off long enough to allow the main objective to reinforce themselves (ala Alamo).

Sneaking Challenges and the Mimic chest Challenge that I suggested could be part of proving your worth to some group. There used to be a computer game (it's been so long I forget what game) where if you played a rogue, you had to prove yourself to the Thieves Guild and couldn't advance without passing simple tests like stealing items unnoticed or assassinating without being caught.

Puzzle challenges could be the same thing. "So this is the adventure we've heard so much about. If you are so great, let's see if you can beat the Sphynx's riddle, erm, puzzles."

Ungood
01-14-2012, 08:02 PM
I actually found my melee insanely more useful in several challenges than my wizard

May I ask which Challenges you found your melee to be more useful?

BossOfEarth
01-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Ok I'm back. I turned in some of my Rushmore tokens. So, keeping in mind that I've only played Rushmore twice....

* I love creativity that went into the oversized barrels, tiny rats, freezer themed room, tiny tables mascurading as stools and so on. It is an interesting playspace full of fun and whimsy.

* Good maze design. While not strictly a maze, it's a neat space because of the way there are floors stacked on top of each other.

* Thematic areas. Great job. There are places with distinct looks but it all works together to form part of a whole (albiet a trippy extradimentional whole)

* Disliked the sigils. They're all the same shape and color, I had to read the text to tell them apart. I recomend making them look different so that I can tell them apart at a glance. Especialy if the slots are distinctive enough to identify them from across the room without tab-selecting them.

* Disliked the sigils II: I never knew how many sigils I had. Perhaps a sigil heads up display could be added to the stars HUD?

* Couldn't interact with the assasssin. I killed the sucubus first, but then couldn't interact with the assasin. I don't know if that's part of the quest design or not.

* Packages bad! Chests good! In my primitive lizard brain, seeing picture = getting treasure. I know it's not rational, but DDO has conditioned me to enjoy opening chests and seeing the little squares. I'm not opposed to getting packages instantly, but I need to see the loot list with the little pictures or the treasure doesn't feel real to me. How about, after the quest I have the option to collect treasure from a chest?

* Is it true what they say about the Air Elementals?
Yes. Every word!

Also...
Kobold Assault is unpopular BECAUSE the new players and kids run it to death. I enjoy rescuing those groups with my overgeared TR low level characters, although KA is much easier now that the Shaman's spells have been nerfed (Hold person and enfeebling ray have trivialy short durrations now.) In my experience, this was a really hated quest amongst kids because it was so difficult but they were tremendously overjoyed when they were able to beat it. Now it's not as hated but also not as much as an accomplishment.

Where there's smoke used to have a similar challenge (durring the last fight, exactly 1 million orcs attack). But now it's been toned down. Fewer orcs casting short durration debuffs. I would love to have more fights where suddenly, a horde appears and you have to limit your exposure (by hiding behind a farmhouse) to survive.

Stealthy Reposession. While not exactly a waves and waves of enemies style challenge, the result is the same, being totaly outnumbered by a horde of mobs. I still rescue people from this thing, sometimes even on my level 20 main. Personaly I think it's alot of fun, but it's also a style of quest that alot of people hit their head against. I'd like to see something like Stealthy Repo is, (I can zerg it) and not as it was supposed to be (it can only be stealthed).

Thrudh
01-15-2012, 10:38 AM
The timers were designed back when epic trash had 6000hp and full epic ward, and were not lenient then. It was the hardest 6-person Epic in the game, and you needed the occasional breather.

Along comes U9 and drops the HP to ~3000 if you don't have a necro-specced Wizard (a pretty reasonable number), and 1hp if you do. That was what made the quest go from a frantic-paced war of attrition to the present 'Wail, wait 30 seconds, Wail, oh look, one saved, melees you have something to do, wait 30 seconds, Wail'.

It was fun once, back when it was an intense battle.

I think we still have a difference of opinion between power-gamers and the rest of us. When I PUG eDA, there's a not a lot of waiting around, and the melees have plenty to do.

Some of you vet posters need to be careful. Your experience is not universal. Don't fall into the Shade syndrome.

It's still an intense battle for most of us.

Thrudh
01-15-2012, 10:40 AM
Do new players like quests like KA?
Not from what I have seen. Typically they go in, get over run, try again a few more times, if they win, they get some paltry reward, that does not even cover the repair costs, and are left mostly with a feeling "That quest sucked"

Kobold Assault would be okay if it actually gave some decent exp.

But I'm not a big fan of those kind of quests.

MadFloyd
01-15-2012, 11:41 AM
I'm glad that you have a fairly comprehensive list of feedback for future challenges, but the burning question for me is...

Will you change the House Cannith challenges to reflect this feedback?

The only reason we have been able to give you this feedback is by pointing out what is wrong with the current challenges, e.g. some challenges are too long/time pressure too much, scaling hurts too much, not balanced for melee/anything that isn't self sufficient.

There are some problems that will be easier fixes than others. If you decide to buff the kobolds or change how much scaling affects mob hp, those aren't as serious fixes as changing the quests themselves to address time pressure or the type of quest(defend, escort, facebook feel).

We're certainly not going to effect large changes to the existing challenges as I don't think that would be in the players' best interest (it would come at a high cost and wouldn't exactly please those who would still dislike this type of content).

I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

MadFloyd
01-15-2012, 11:45 AM
Kobold Assault would be okay if it actually gave some decent exp.

But I'm not a big fan of those kind of quests.

What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

RTN
01-15-2012, 11:48 AM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

I don't mind EDA since the rewards are good. Kobolds Assault, etc., is just boring since it isn't a challenge and the rewards are terrible. It feels like enforced boredom. I can understand one of two of these in a game, since I'm sure someone out there likes them, but I beg of you, no more!

Angelus_dead
01-15-2012, 12:00 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).
Well, the enforced pace of attacks can be fun, but only if the difficulty and rewards of the adventure are balanced around that consideration.

For example, the original Weapon Shipment was absolutely not designed like that, but the new one pretty much is. The enforced attack pace on a defensive quest functions partly like a strict deadline in an offensive dungeon crawl: increases the difficulty by not allowing the players to be excessively slow and careful fighting each enemy. But it's different in that if the players are overpowered and win each fight fast, the fixed interval leaves them bored. Making the next wave spawn only when the previous attackers are dead can avoid that, but it can cause other minor problems.


What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun
It is important to remember that Kobold Assault does not have forced rests between them, and that is an important drawback of the quest design for newbie players. The Kobold Assault rest shrine is outside in front of the fortress, and players can only use that rest shrine if they're either killing kobolds much faster than they spawn, if they use a quasi-exploitive sneak trick, or if they have the coordination for one teammate to hold aggro while the others rest.

If the rest shrine was on a triggered timer like in Devil Assault, then it would be easier for newbies to deal with.

gelgoog
01-15-2012, 12:03 PM
The Challenges are fun to play for a solo (Melee) player like myself.
The Rushmore missions are the only ones I dislike due to the length/randomness and unfriendly to solo melee build. I do enjoy the story/premise for them though.

The rewards for the turn ins are great. Back in the day I remember just having a +5 weapon was awesome! So having these turn ins are nice and are not too much of a grind for good gear.

Gameplay in the Challenges are enjoyable for the most part due to them being different then the normal missions in game. Also nobody has to run them (unless for favor) but they are there for those that want to.

Fighting the named monsters in these Challenges are great as well. You don’t have to Group up/do a whole chain of quests or spend more then 30 minutes to see/battle the named monsters.

More Challenges/rewards would be nice for different Houses in the future.

Aashrym
01-15-2012, 12:17 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

The thing about kobold assault is a person can control the pace better than a lot of quests because the kobolds do patrol pretty static areas. The mistake some players make is they have no idea that it's a bad idea to try and hold up in front of the main entrance when they can just move out above the side entrance and pull however many mobs they can handle. They also have trouble making use of that shrine if they need to use it unless they learn to stealth into it or run a kiter for everyone else.

I find sitting in one place just killing kobolds boring when I can control the pace that way because once we can do that the challenge just dropped way below my fun threshold. The change in difficulty from the swarms to the safe pulling is massive.

I would clarify controlling when the waves come is much better that controlling the pace of the actual combat in the waves.

slimkj
01-15-2012, 12:21 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).
Biases or not, you nailed it for me and a few others.

luvirini
01-15-2012, 12:26 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

My issue with Kobold assault is mostly the low XP and long time you have to wait for the kobolds to spawn in the end. The same waiting issue that was fixed successfully in weapon shipment.

New Weapon shipment "protect the gate" part is fun. (Still annoying to escort the squeshy there, but once there, it is fun)

Old weapon shipment or current gladewatch outpost or kobold assault were/are not fun.

Devil assault is somewhere in between, but more on the not fun side. Begining parts and rest periods are annoying, but once the difficulty ramps up towards end, it gets to be fun, but takes quite long to get there.

MaxwellEdison
01-15-2012, 12:47 PM
I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

This is a shame, I actually root for getting the lich over the marilith, but thats probably because my light monk does holy bludgeoning damage of any metal but mithral

Lifeblood
01-15-2012, 12:58 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).


Bingo

red_cardinal
01-15-2012, 01:00 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

2-3 such quest in the whole game are plenty.
It's all about tastes and you can't argue that.

waterboytkd
01-15-2012, 01:03 PM
removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch

NNNNNOOOOOO!!!!

I guess this is an example of where you can't please everyone all the time. I liked the lich because I was able to manhandle him on my monk, whereas the marilith is quite the opposite. It's very hard to kill her when I solo, and takes a while as I need to keep retreating to heal up.

NecroKovy
01-15-2012, 01:30 PM
I bought access to the pack (forgive me, I like SO VERY MUCH of the pay content, but will not buy arti-quests.) of challenges, and have not gone check it out yet. Goes on the list of things like Crafting with Essences in terms of ,'I'll get to it', which may take a while....besides, hopefully by the time I DO get to it, it will have been perfected via threads like this.

While this may seem like an irrelevant stance on the matter, if the number of people doing the same thing is larger than I may think it is, it's something to look into. If nobody is playing it (passing the buck while others perfect it, hey I do it! lol) then how can you possibly get viable feedback. I don't think it's bad behavior on either party, but I cannot shake the bottom can fall out at anytime feeling on anything that seems fun to do, or makes being powerful/getting better gear much easier.

arroyo
01-15-2012, 01:35 PM
... and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) ...

Disappointing. I have a lotta trouble soloing the Marilith with my rogue, while Lich is way easier.
I like it how there's a Boss for either arcane or melee.

dunklezhan
01-15-2012, 01:52 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

I think that's about right, yes.

E.g. Summerfield could so easily have been done as waves of mobs with you just defending the walls/gate. And that would have been very dull and derivative.

But instead, what we got was a three phase adventure (hold off the advance force, take the fight to the enemy, then final defence), on a relatively large map (which is actually quite small but the streets and rooftops make it feel huge) with good mob variety (both in terms of mod type, and in terms of what types came together, where some were on the map, archers perched but that which you could get to etc), and a guy with a mini blade barrier on his mace. Which is awesome, and I wants one. It also had mini games in terms of rescuing the downed soldiers - now that's a single-star objective if ever I saw one. Incorporate that sort of thing into a challenge, and you're probably on the right lines.

Havok.cry
01-15-2012, 01:54 PM
Imo the lich favors melee toons over casters, please leave it in.

ahpook
01-15-2012, 01:56 PM
....for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) ...

Given the consistent feedback in this thread that casters are favored over melee I find that ironic. The Marilith is much easier for a caster who can DOT and run while the lich is probably equal for both. So another change that discourages melee.

OkapiMaes
01-15-2012, 02:00 PM
Need a reward for divine caster in here. I made the boots for the guards. But every other class has something decent atleast.

Jiipster
01-15-2012, 02:09 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

Bingo!

Aelgerion
01-15-2012, 02:51 PM
First, I will say that I'm not very fond of the challenges. I was really excited about them at first as my initial impression was, "Great! This is something I can do for a few minutes solo while I'm waiting for my guildies/group to form for a quest."

Instead, what I found were a few things when they launched:
1. Overpriced for the actual value - the same 3-4 quests run a couple of different ways and a nifty token system for loot. I've gotten what felt like more content out of an adventure pack that was 1/2 the price. I understand that these were probably a lot of work and Turbine needs to price it that way...wasn't worth it in my opinion.
2. Restricted options by level - I only have a few challenges open at level 4? Really? I thought the point was to scale this content more. Boo...just plain boo.
3. Lack of unified reward system - I need to run specific challenges for specific loot, regardless of fun level. This really should have done a couple of things. Lower level quests reward less tokens, lower level items cost less tokens, go up from there. This is actually a big problem I have with DDO in general - the random loot system is atrocious and rarely gives me anything useful other than fodder for crafting.
4. XP scaling - this is another issue I have with DDO in general, but the challenges really just cemented my feelings about this. The XP scaling in DDO is terrible. For the time spent in a challenge, I would expect more than 1.5k XP at level 18. Challenges in this case are just a mini-game to break up the monotony of running the other quests 5x each to make it to the next level.

At the end of the day, I chose to vote with my $$ and left the game for a bit in protest. I still keep tabs on it and would love to come back when the above issues are corrected in a meaningful way.

smatt
01-15-2012, 03:37 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).


A few quests in the game of this type are nice... You know Kobold assual, Devil Assual, Weapons Shipment. But overall, at lest for me I don't care for the standing around waiting type stuff. In fact kind of mechanic is downright annoying, waiting for minutes at time in a quest for no reason.... Even ones like the beginning of ToD, you know the wait through the speech part, that annoys A LOT of people after the 10th time.

I think a large sample would show that what you've said here is correct though.... Most people don't like forced waves or forced waits for that matter.

DANTEIL
01-15-2012, 03:40 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

Yes, go talk to your counterparts across the hall at LOTRO. In my opinion, the defensive skirmishes (waves of enemies at particular intervals) are less enjoyable than the offensive skirmishes, where you have more control and can pick and choose your battles more carefully, depending on what you can handle. In any event, glad to hear that there might be some additional re-thinking of future Challenges in the works.

BattleCircle
01-15-2012, 04:28 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).
Nope no bias. I'd say you're spot on.

bhgiant
01-15-2012, 04:31 PM
I don't mind EDA since the rewards are good. Kobolds Assault, etc., is just boring since it isn't a challenge and the rewards are terrible. It feels like enforced boredom.
Agreed. If the kobolds came faster and maybe had this huge surge at the end where you were like "HOLY ****! ZERGS!", then I think it would be fun. But it is just really boring and time consuming and pitiful in its xp right now.

fun =
http://5493-planetmc.voxcdn.com/files/resource_media/screenshot/1143/SexyShoelessGodOfWar_709928.jpg
Kobold Assault =
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002226589/246522635_boredom_at_work_xlarge.png

stockwizard5
01-15-2012, 04:36 PM
We're certainly not going to effect large changes to the existing challenges as I don't think that would be in the players' best interest (it would come at a high cost and wouldn't exactly please those who would still dislike this type of content).

I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

Just to clarify the changes vs bugs thing ... I assume that the BUGS are being worked even if large scale changes are not?
The loot BUGS are a Real Issue that should not be left to timing TBD :(

Example - Epic Frozen Tunic 1. Unable to Slot Colorless and 2. FS (Cold) Overwrites Cast FS (Fire)?
Kinda makes this item nearly useless!
Similar Bugs also make almost all the other items useless as well (per detailed forum lists)!

GoRinNoSho
01-15-2012, 05:08 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

Definitely. You have some groups that Zerg through and some that take a slower approach. Providing a way where both can work pay off.

Remember that there are also "age 8 to 80 playing". So forcing the mass waves may resonate with some demographics but not others. I'd like to see the difference in runs of WS since the change.

Heh. You want to make things interesting for the hardcore, make an extreme challenge 18, 19, or 20 quest with a warning. If they wipe then their character is unplayable for a day or so. (Original idea, they were captured in devil battlefield and will only unlock when another player releases them (Sins, New Invasion, Genesis), not to mention possibly another quest for them to re-obtain their equipment. ;) ).

Cannith went a good way for the hardcore. Instead of adapting existing content, add more and go with things like "extreme challenges."

Make a quest called In the Eye of the Beholder where you are constantly under the beholder anti-magic effect. That'd be a challenge. ;)

GoRinNoSho
01-15-2012, 05:15 PM
We're certainly not going to effect large changes to the existing challenges as I don't think that would be in the players' best interest (it would come at a high cost and wouldn't exactly please those who would still dislike this type of content).

I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

With the changes to the hit box, the Marilith is a bigger pain than the Lich imo. On 20 extraplanar, the lich can be disintegrated/overwhelmed. The marilith requires a good chunk of resources to take down due to overrun, 6 arms, and lightning immunity.

Don1966
01-15-2012, 05:42 PM
I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

i presume this to mean that only the marilith will spawn now. to me, and others who have posted, this was the wrong direction to go. the lich can be handled by either a melee or caster type while the marilith pretty much has to be handled be a caster or ranger. if you were to remove one, remove the marilith so any class can handle defending the center. just make some adjustments to the lich so it is possible to pull his agro. as it is now you have to take him down to about 20% health before he stops attacking kobolds and focuses on the one attacking him.

Angelus_dead
01-15-2012, 05:51 PM
i presume this to mean that only the marilith will spawn now. to me, and others who have posted, this was the wrong direction to go.
The four named attackers were Marilith, Lich, Hag, and Rakshasa. Maybe you forgot about the last two because they're the weakest...

sirgog
01-15-2012, 06:03 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

Some players like one style, others like the other style.

I for one somewhat enjoy content with a minimum pace enforced by the game. My complaint about Devil Assault is that it also enforces a maximum speed.

IMO you should have a look at LOTRO's skirmishes - that game has both types of content. Two of the interesting things the skirmishes have that you might consider stealing are:

*Optional 'protect this combat-capable NPC' objectives that are quite short. Trouble in Tuckborough does this well - most times that you claim an area, mobs counterattack, and 2 local residents help you fight them off. Those residents put up a fight, and if you can keep them alive, you get more skirmish marks (which in DDO challenges would translate to 'you get a higher score and thus more of the ingredients you want'. Or you could have star objectives - a star for protecting 6 or more NPCs, and an additional one for protecting all 10).
*Random miniboss Lieutenants - There's a lot of different minibosses in skirmishes. Which ones you get in a run is completely random. Some do not appear at all if you have a smaller group (example: You'll never get a Wretched Falconer solo).




I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

Removing the Lich will, as others have said, favor casters over melee in that challenge. The Marilith is a nightmare for melee toons even after her recent nerf - most characters cannot stand toe-to-toe with her unless they have dedicated healing. At least she doesn't hit for 70-110 on 6-player 20 any more...

Normally I'd object to hurting melees, but IMO this challenge is one place where melees are faring pretty well - the Animated Armors are must-kill mobs that casters have trouble with due to their construct traits and high elemental resistances, the Arcanaloths have relevant SR and saves and are also highly resistant to elements, and minibosses have enough SR that Energy Draining them is not overpowering. When soloing the Palace I use a self-sufficient melee-oriented toon rather than my caster (although I prefer to group there).

I'd suggest maybe keeping the bosses as-is on Epic, but on the lower CRs, perhaps replace both with a rednamed Rakshasa. Melees and casters both perform pretty equally against Rakshasa, but the real stars against them are the rare piercing-specced melee. And when a rakshasa gets onto the line of kobolds, it won't wipe them out as fast as a Marilith can.




I think we still have a difference of opinion between power-gamers and the rest of us. When I PUG eDA, there's a not a lot of waiting around, and the melees have plenty to do.

Some of you vet posters need to be careful. Your experience is not universal. Don't fall into the Shade syndrome.

It's still an intense battle for most of us.

I've been in groups like that in epDA. The 4th wave usually wipes them and if they somehow make it to him, noone can hit Turigulon. epDA is not at all content that is designed for ungeared casual players - those players have Elite which is still relevant at level 20. Prior to update 9, at least those groups wiped in wave 2 which served as a warning - before they used SP pots - that this dungeon really is not designed for you. They didn't have to get to Turigulon and wipe at 90% after grazing him over and over to figure that out.

Prior to U9 epDA was arguably one of the five hardest quests or raids in the entire game. (I'd say they were elite TOD just because of part 1, elite SOS, epDA, epChains of Flame and epDQ1 in that order). The game needs content like that - content designed to wipe powergamers and that casual players quickly establish is not designed for them. Just like it also needs Inspired Quarter style content that is beatable first or second try by pretty much every type of player.




The four named attackers were Marilith, Lich, Hag, and Rakshasa. Maybe you forgot about the last two because they're the weakest...

You always get one of Devashta (the Marilith) and Malandis (the Lich) upon hitting quota.

AFAICT, the Rakshasa spawns at about 7 minutes (so is often not seen by farming groups), and the Hag is in a random spot in the 'deep outside' (and so is seldom seen at all). These last two are orange-named on all difficulties and are actually pretty resilient but don't have the 'Kobold Massacre' factor of the rednameds.

Targonis
01-15-2012, 06:45 PM
When it comes to the "wave after wave after wave" style of encounter, the big problem is with the style of it. Where are the mobs entering from, and is there a way for the players to know how long it will go on for. When you have no idea how many mobs you need to kill, or you have something like 15-20 minutes of fighting, just to get past some timer, that just feels...contrived.

Now, Devil Assault at least tells you you have a number of waves you have to get through, and it even tells you that you have completed a wave, with some sort of reward cycle for getting to that point. With the prior "wave after wave" types, you end up with a timer, and being bored with the thought, "Ok, this is easy, but 20 minutes of nonstop yard trash mobs with very little variety" is what makes many really dislike them.

When you have to clear the boss to stop the spawns, that also can work, as long as there are reasonable rules(no insta-spawns the moment the old mobs are dead without at least SOME sort of casting effect that can be interrupted). Enter the Kobold as a quest is a perfect example of what is broken. If the boss can insta-summon living spells continually, then why would there not be 10,000 of the things? There should at least be some sort of cool-down on re-spawns that would allow the players to get ahead of the respawns.

Ungood
01-15-2012, 07:05 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

You would be 100% correct here.

Timed Waves are not good to balance the game for different skill levels at all.

As others have pointed out, if they are better then the quest it quickly leads to boredom, if they are walking the margin they get overrun too easy making it discouraging.

IF, and I mean IF, there is such a desire to have Wave Kills like quests, Which I personally do not like as they are purely caster domain type quests (Ah la Weapon Shipment) at the higher levels making Melee near to window dressing.

The waves should be contingent upon the defeating of the previous wave, to say 80%. That way they have a constant stream of influx they can control and move at a pace they can handle, regardless if they are metas or typical gamers. But never have a time or point where they are sitting around twiddling their thumbs, but equally so, they are not getting hit by wave after wave while they fight along.

Like take KA, as opposed to timed spawns with an initial legion.

You start with something like X active mobs charging, and opposed to timed re-spawns, have so that once they cleared down to roughly half the initial wave they maintain that number, IE: for every one they kill, another spawns and attacks. But only after they get down to a manageable pool of mobs.

For added challenge on higher difficulties, have it so that random 5 surge pack on Hard (10 surge packs -or- an Ogre spawn on Elite / No Surge groups on normal) spawns; thrown in from time to time to stir up trouble. Say at every 20 - 25 killed, they get a small surge of Kobolds to attack them to try and "Take them down".

It would faster paced then it is now, but, hopefully, if it the starting number is reasonable, half that size would be manageable even by a new player party. Of course initial legion size would contingent upon difficulty.

sephiroth1084
01-15-2012, 09:54 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).
You're certainly able to hit a wider range of player with the 'choose your own pace' model: experienced, tricked-out players can zerg through that content, while newer, less well-geared players can move at a slower pace. One group can use brute force, while another uses tactics and leans heavily on crowd control. Small groups and soloists can work at drawing off or taking out smaller groups of monsters at a time.

With the wave battles, options are heavily restricted, and the content tends to either be boring for the strong players, as they have to wait while nothing is going on, or too hard for the weaker players that can't ever quite get ahead of the spawning creatures.

EnjoyTheJourney
01-15-2012, 11:29 PM
I'd like a simpler ingredient exchange process.

I need a wiki page in the background to plan out how to acquire items from the challenge in an efficient manner. Why should a wiki page be all but needed for the "non-hardcore" (or those like me with mediocre memories) to plan out how to acquire items in an efficient manner? It's not necessary to make things that complicated.

On a related point, for those who have challenges they like and ones they don't, ingredient swaps will push players toward what they don't like because what's fun (ie: do the challenge(s) you like, rather than the ones you don't) can easily be in conflict with what's efficient (always doing the one challenge that provides the exact ingredients you need, instead of swapping, and never swapping multiple times in a row).

Proposed solution:

Allow players to swap any ingredient for any other ingredient from a challenge of the same level (or minimum level), at the "2 for 1" discount currently in place.

oradafu
01-16-2012, 12:17 AM
If the Challenge system is going to be similar to Vault (where there will be various different versions of the same Challenge), why must there even be a either or option about the type of "wave after wave" style challenge/quest? Why can't there be the Kobold Assault style, the Devil Assault style, Last Stand style and Weapon Shipment style? Why can't there be both the timed style and untimed style? Why can't there be both the Challenge with a clear end objective that stops the waves and the Challenge with no end objective just mobs that slowly get strong with each wave until sudden-death? Wasn't that the whole point of having different quests or even challenges, so players with different tastes can enjoy different type content?

As for removing the Lich in the one Challenge (at least in my opinion) that is melee friendly, that's just a bad move. Boo!

As for the ingredients, I agree there were too many added in the Challenge pack and the exchange can be pain as well. The ingredients should have been limited to the level of the item. Quests ran at level 4 to 6 got one ingredient, quests ran at level 7 to 10...etc, Then when the item was made at level 4, you needed X amount of level 4 ingredients. At level 8, you needed X amount of level 4 + level 8 ingredients. For epic items, you need X amount of level 4 + level 8 + level 12 + level 16 + level 20 ingredients. This would also help players who like Rushmoor by hate Kobold running and visa versa.

Now going back to the number of ingredients players deal with... I don't mind more ingredients being added occasionally, but it seems new ones (multiple of them) are added every update. Recycling ingredients won't be a bad idea in future updates. It worked with Vale and Amrath. Just an idea here, but the next Xoriat pack that needs ingredients to upgrade items, just recycle the Reign ingredients with maybe larger amounts needed. The next WF type pack should use the ingredients from Secrets. The next Quori type pack, use Mindsunder essence maybe. Sure you could add a new ingredient (such as GS Shards) so people have to run the pack to get both the base item and the item that causes the upgrade, but it would be nice if the pace of ingredients that players need to manage were to slow down some.

Yan_PL
01-16-2012, 12:19 AM
I yet have to see a named Tower shield that would rival Leviks.
There are no named Epic Dwarven Axes.
Heavy picks are also left behind on this one.

I figure, that challenges, after few adjustment to difficulty (5-6 stars runs being impossible in some cases) are good enough. But I'd love to see more items, it's not just Divines and Acrobats that were left behind in there. Especially that class/playstyle equality in loot been mentioned.


As for "waves" in challenges, timed waves are somewhat good solution, but ability to "skip to a next wave" with "bonus points for time skipped" is good.

Avidus
01-16-2012, 08:32 AM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusionAgreed
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’ Please don't swing to far on this one. What I mean is don't remove the progression and add the lotto. Just add the lotto, a token for any 1 item in the barter box coming from a supply chest would be good.
- Kobold pathing issues They kobolds run around like drunken viking children with adhd...
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC It does make me wonder why I have to herd cats to gather things. Why can't I just pick up the stuff?
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy highAgreed
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)Agreed, also they should go into a bag, even if it's a special challenge only only token bag. Offtopic we need to have better bags, being able to name them, group the contents etc., the search is nice but not enough.
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds) Agreed. Time is a factor, but in every single one of them? and if you finish early you HAVE to wait it out...
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion) Random is good to a point. It seems like we hit the same spots and if not the crests we need it's faster to recall and start again if we want to make it a useful run.
- Not happy with XP I know you are squeamish about the non-decaying xp, but the xp is terrible, I mean really really awful
- Challenges were supposed to be short! Yes, yes a 1000 times yes. Shorter faster runs would make it feel like more was done. Longer quests have trouble keeping people repeating them.
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focusI thought they were supposed to be an addon to House C. Is that not right?
- Not balanced/fun for MeleesYes, melees have trouble in here, especially ones without movement boosts like monk/barb speed or sprint boost.
- Stars should increase ingredientsAgreed
- Can’t find parties/LFMs Yup, people only farm the best rate of return ones to get their item and get out. Once they get their item there are even fewer lfms
- Air Elementals NOT FUNNot just in the challenges, but everywhere, no save 1000 times a second knockback / knockdown while slowing and blowing AoE's. What's not to love? Air ele's suck now.
- Kobolds too weakI think these kobolds cross bred with Coyle or something...
- Should allow < 20’s to enter EpicShould allow this everywhere not just in challenges. If a Character wants to create a challenge for themselves it should be encouraged not unavailable.
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)Mobs that cast deathward = ok, mobs that are just flat out immune or have arbitrary immunity = LAME
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content not just don't like, Hate... I can raise dead. Why can't I let you die and raise you when it's safe?
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!Yes, more people should make the quest easier not ZOMG***!!! harder...
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked onYup, totally agree.
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDOYup.
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)Agreed.
- Need self sufficient builds to soloNeed self sufficient builds just to split up in these challenges. Also on a related note, when encouraging a group to split up for best results, adjust dungeon alert accordingly.
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars100% True
- No loot for healers Consider a shield and / or good one hander, a +7 wis item. Just don't make it an improved turn undead item, no one turns undead its useless, Turn Undeads only purpose now is to power better abilities(RS aura / burst etc)
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS GOOD GOD YES. Enough with the ingredients already
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)No loot for acrobats, no rune-arms and only one pair of handwraps
- No way to end the quest early this needs to happen.
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.Yes.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.Yes and no. I think there is a 'sweet spot' between the insanity that is weapons shipment and the boredom that is Devil Assault.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF


What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).
Bias or not this is 100% how I and my non-forumite guildies feel. Player controled pacing of the 'progress' would be fan-friggin-tastic.

Thanks MF

Ungood
01-16-2012, 08:36 AM
There are no named Epic Dwarven Axes.

As a friend of mine said: "What ever happened to all those dwarven heroes and their legendary dwarf axes.. oh right, they didn't die."

Cyr
01-16-2012, 09:28 AM
I like that you are guys are looking at these sorts of questions in more detail atm, but I would like to see you guys devote some real effort into looking at the incentive side of things also. Often times it appears the incentives are an after thought with these challenges being a big flashing red stop sign for the developers to really take this into consideration in all stages of planning content and systems.

I am sure you realize how big of a mistake pushing the incentive design to the end of challenges was with the numerous boss chest spawn issues, the xp issues, the named loot bug issues, the unequal reward/time issues, and the method of giving xp causing issues.

I have offered many suggestions about incentive design in the past. A very brief recap of some of them follows...


Dynamic XP/Min rewards. This idea is NOT my own, but it is the way that I think XP should be rewarded. Basically the game averages the completion time of quests and based upon that rewards a known xp/min ratio based upon the quests level and perhaps a difficulty modifier in special cases. This average time would be re-calculated periodically. This would then grant groups beating the average times in quests greater xp/min and those slower less xp/min, but do so in a manner that balanced these rewards better on a quest by quest basis making a wider variety of content worth running while leveling. Also importantly it takes the developers out of the equation...which is a good thing because the numbers do not lie.
Trash chest intelligent loot tables. By this I mean that trash chests are programmed to have a chance to have any item that drops from lower level chests (including named items from special chests) and any store item drop from them. These tables need to be generated dynamically whenever an update happens by references all items (even new ones) which have as part of the item information in the database their min chest level drop making it so that these tables do not need to be re-written by some poor developer every update. Of course, these tables should base the odds of a particular named item based upon the chest which normally drops it's level compared to the chest being opened so that level 20 chests do not drop with equal regularity korthos items compared to items from the necro 4 chests. The odds of pulling a named item or store item should be low, but not insanely low as the odds of pulling a useful named item or store item are much lower then pulling anyone.
Named chest intelligent loot tables. The same as above, but with the added chance of pulling any item from a chest of equal level. Of course the odds of pulling equal level chest loot found in another chest normally would be considerably lower then the special loot of that particular chest...For example, the epic chest in the tides turn could have a 50% chance of dropping a shard from that pack, a 20% chance of dropping an item from a lower level chest, a 10% chance of dropping a store item, and a 5% chance of dropping a random seal/shard/scroll from normally found in another epic quest of that level or lower (this assumes that epic quests and chests are actually given levels based upon their difficulty instead of a flat level).
Truly unique legendary loot as incredibly rare drops. These items would be capable of gaining xp and have truly exceptional powers some random and some chosen by the player in an enhancement type system that could be reset. Think LOTRO except no limit to the number you can tote around, much more powerful random powers, much rarer, and no ML based system to make you recycle them as you level. I have a suggestion about this idea in the suggestion forums which you can search for if interested in my ideas on this.
Epic XP. At level cap characters should still gain xp, but a special sort which is retained through TRs and can be used by them when they hit level cap again. This xp would purchase a variety of things such as extra AP, HP, SP, class abilities, downright extra levels in classes... The key to this system would be the method of xp rewarded (drastically reduced for doing lower level content and increased for higher level content), reworking epics to have actual levels/xp assigned to them, and a purchase system which would grant much less rewards per xp the higher you got in it. This would keep the power gamers busy forever (no upper limit on rewards) while being balanced in a manner to allow for more difficult future high end content and upon release of it an accelerated xp gain for those not at the top ends.

QuantumFX
01-16-2012, 09:33 AM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

…and the XP sucks in the older versions of “waves” type quests. (Compare: Kobold Assault vs. Devil Assault. Compare Hold for Reinforcements vs. The Last Stand)


- Air Elementals NOT FUN

You need to be more focused on this: The auto spam trip is what’s not fun. Focus on that spam and you will have made them into an interesting foe to fight.

Silverleafeon
01-16-2012, 09:47 AM
Just did my first challenge and loved it!

LordPiglet
01-16-2012, 09:52 AM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

Yes and no, for example, this works very well in Weapon Shipment. In Devils assult, yes and no (if you're able to effectively kill quickly on the non epic levels, there's a fair amount of down time, on epic the pacing seems fine).

Kobold assualt, not that fun, especially since that kill count is 200 mobs.

twiliteslayer02
01-16-2012, 09:53 AM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).


^THIS^

I look at DDO as sort of a replpacement for my table time pnp stuff, and while I know this is a video game, when I play I still feel as if my fun factor is driven directly by the loot tables.

I know that if my lev 10 fighter kills a juvenile black dragon, in pnp, I have a certain chance to get a super cool shiney new item that can be used almost immediately, ....not so much in DDO

In essence, the crafting and auctionhouse give s bit of value, but it takes almost a whole new game to make anything useful, and even then it means you will almost assuredly have to grind out more ingreds.

IMO we shoud have a more readily available ingred vendor, where we could sell/buy unused or unwanted or essential ingreds. would allow devs to keep tabs and control the flow of useless stuff, and give us a better way to craft, especially for those of us who hate grinding out materials.

GoldyGopher
01-16-2012, 12:40 PM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).

I believe your own biases are creeping in.

IMHO these couple of quests need a few hours of tender loving care to be made current.

The problem is the scripting that releases the hounds, I mean kobolds, and sends them at the party.
Current the kobolds come at a slow dribble in groups of 4 to 8 and the proceed to nonchalantly attack the party piecemeal.
If the AI and physics engine could handle it these waves should be increased to at least 20 kobolds and the should have a definite point of attack either the lower entrance or the main gate.

This adventure should be a night only quest, with rain.
After the first few waves a temporary rest shrine should appear, xp should be awarded, bonus XP for not testing the kobolds in, and then the next tougher wave should be thrown at the party. Kind of like devils assault.

jkm
01-16-2012, 12:50 PM
I do see us making some of the easier changes to improve fun factor (for example we recently adjusted some of the stupidly tough mobs in Lava Cave and removed the Lich from Extraplanar for an upcoming patch) but our plate is more than full at the moment with other content goals so timing remains to be determined.

The lich just needs his aggro fixed. He needs to aggro on players if they are present within 100m of him.

If he has the same spell list for all difficulties then you need to put FoD and Mass Hold Person as a very slight chance to be cast. If its possible to have 2 spell lists then just remove them for level 12 and lower.

Retired_Old_Gamer
01-16-2012, 01:09 PM
I had earlier posted in the thread, and have edited that.

The challenges definitely have a place here, they just need a little tweak and expansion.

In fact, Making the whole challenge content into a progressive series with a "raid" would be cool.

oradafu
01-16-2012, 03:00 PM
The lich just needs his aggro fixed. He needs to aggro on players if they are present within 100m of him.

If he has the same spell list for all difficulties then you need to put FoD and Mass Hold Person as a very slight chance to be cast. If its possible to have 2 spell lists then just remove them for level 12 and lower.

Actually the Lich's aggro on kobolds problem is a problem with all mobs in all the Cove knockoffs. It's most noticable to me with the stupidly inflated HP Cloud Giant in Lava Caves (who seems to me to have 5 times the HP of Fire Giant Warlock). Beating on him until he loses about 10% of HP before he starts noticing me is an additional pain to those inflated HP. But the aggro problem on kobolds seems to be across the board from invisible mephits to inflated HP red name.

jkm
01-16-2012, 05:06 PM
Actually the Lich's aggro on kobolds problem is a problem with all mobs in all the Cove knockoffs. It's most noticable to me with the stupidly inflated HP Cloud Giant in Lava Caves (who seems to me to have 5 times the HP of Fire Giant Warlock). Beating on him until he loses about 10% of HP before he starts noticing me is an additional pain to those inflated HP. But the aggro problem on kobolds seems to be across the board from invisible mephits to inflated HP red name.

He is another one who seems to have odd aggro. I just ignore him since he doesn't do any damage to them.

For lava caves, the biggest issue by far are the drow rogues with their cloaking devices. If one of them gets into the base on an incoming, they can wipe out 5 or 6 kobolds before you can even find them (since they restealth after they kill a kobold).

Thrudh
01-16-2012, 11:30 PM
For lava caves, the biggest issue by far are the drow rogues with their cloaking devices.

Heh, drow DO look like Romulans, don't they?

dkyle
01-17-2012, 08:43 AM
I've done the challenges quite a bit, mostly solo. I generally like them, and definitely like the concept. Some comments (haven't really been following this thread much, so I'm sure a lot is repeating what's already been said):

General:
* Stacking limit of 10 for daily tokens is ridiculous. Can we just get a default stacking limit of 10000 for everything, and only change it when it's really necessary? Is inventory tetris really supposed to be a significant part of the game?
* Can we get some way of finding out what the daily challenge is before accepting the tokens? I like to run different challenges on different characters. I try asking in House C general chat, but never get a reply. I have to log into an alternative account, and check on a character there, so I know which character to use.

Rushmore:
* The single biggest cause of failure is simply getting screwed on crests. I can break every breakable, kill every spawn, and pick up all the crests (at this point, I know where they all can drop), and still get to a door that I cannot open. Even get to a point where I can't open any doors at all. Farming mobs for crests is horribly unreliable, so once that happens, I'm pretty much screwed out of challenge token. Maybe add "crafting" altars throughout the mansion that we can use to trade 3 of one crest for 1 of any another?
* Air eles are too much, and aren't much fun to deal with on Melee. The no-save knockback is simply unfair. The knockdown I've found manageable (if still annoying, as all knockdowns are...)
* Overall, it's quite long doing a full run, more than I would have expected from "challenges" given their initial description. 5 boss run is about 350 items, which is OK, but still produces are quite low mat/minute.

Extraplanar Palace:
* Kind of sorry to hear that the Lich is being removed. He's the boss I always hope for when I'm soloing. I've found that his "kobold-hating" AI isn't unmanageable. The "melee blender" aspect of the Marilith makes it hard to solo on anything but my FvS. Level 20 I can manage on my Bard (who is otherwise my best for running torches and such), but Level 21 is just a little too much damage to heal through with heal scrolls, and still kill her in a timely manner.
* Kobold pathing is much improved since the initial release. They still sometimes insist on taking creative routes back to the foreman, instead of following the torches, which can cause problems.

Lava Caves:
* It's easy to get screwed on Purple crystal and Circle of Power placement. The results of runs can vary wildly, and it often feels like it's due to dumb luck, rather than quality of play. I think the random Circles is a step too far.
* The Cloud Giant has way too many HP. He's not challenging to kill, just boring. He's really hard to get off the Kobolds, too. The Shamans are a bit hefty, as well. The Scarrow, on the other hand, is both deadly, and not too hard to kill. He's much more exciting.

Kobold Island:
* Haven't done this one much yet, actually. Stuff I've wanted to craft so far doesn't take much from it.
* Definitely hardest one to solo. I'm sure there's a way to get a reasonable return out of it solo, but I've not managed to do it yet.
* The group runs I've done were kind of boring. It's like 4 Kobold Assaults at the same time...

jkm
01-17-2012, 10:51 AM
Rushmore:
* The single biggest cause of failure is simply getting screwed on crests. I can break every breakable, kill every spawn, and pick up all the crests (at this point, I know where they all can drop), and still get to a door that I cannot open. Even get to a point where I can't open any doors at all. Farming mobs for crests is horribly unreliable, so once that happens, I'm pretty much screwed out of challenge token. Maybe add "crafting" altars throughout the mansion that we can use to trade 3 of one crest for 1 of any another?


The more I run this quest, the more I believe it isn't the drops of the crests so much as the random generator for the doors.

For example, I had a run at level 10 where I was locked out of the 14th door (in the courtyard between the kobold and rushmore).

The door was Monkey x3, bat. In my inventory I had at least 10 of every crest but monkey of which I had zero. Why? because every single door had required at least 1 monkey up til that point.

There are 52 total crests in the game with 6 different types. If they limited the generator to a maximum of 9 of each type then it should even out (this particular run I had been asked for 17 monkeys by that door).

barecm
01-18-2012, 12:27 PM
Reading through alot, not all, of the responses I think I can summarize:


Kobold Island: Sucks. Least run, least fun, most cannot run it solo. Georgraphy issues for solo.

Lava Caves: Run fairly often. Hard to solo, Kobolds are stupid and run off the path, casters with ddoor and haste have a huge advantage. Georgraphy issues for solo unless you can do ddoor.

Extraplanar Palace: People run these the most. Easiest to solo. Kobolds are stupid in here too and kill themselves in the tar

Dagolar
01-19-2012, 12:13 PM
OK, I've digested all this (so far). I want to sincerely thank all of you for your efforts here.

This is what I'm hearing in terms of negative feedback (in NO particular order):

- Challenge tutorial would have been nice – a lot of confusion
- No sense of “I could get lucky and get a nice reward THIS run’
- Kobold pathing issues
- Sick of collection – worn out by CC
- Feel like I must purchase pack versus just use free tokens and price is crazy high
- Tokens don’t stack (making free token route unattractive)
- Don’t like time pressure (and that doesn’t favor some builds)
- Random is on thing, extreme bad luck sucks (e.g. crest drops in Mansion)
- Not happy with XP
- Challenges were supposed to be short!
- Lesser number of them – more as add-ons to adventure pack than main focus
- Not balanced/fun for Melees
- Stars should increase ingredients
- Can’t find parties/LFMs
- Air Elementals NOT FUN
- Kobolds too weak
- Should allow < 20’s to enter Epic
- Deathblock on epic mobs SUCKS (why do you keep doing this, Turbine?)
- Don’t like defense/escort/protect content
- Easier solo than in group – scaling problems!!!!
- No serious story or D&D oriented goal – they feel tacked on
- Yuck. Feels like facebook game, not DDO
- No renown in chests (or not enough renown compared to other quests)
- Need self sufficient builds to solo
- Shouldn’t need DDO Store to complete stars
- No loot for healers
- Tired of ingredients - STOP WITH THE INGREDIENTS
- No loot for acrobats (include a QUARTERSTAFF)
- No way to end the quest early
- We messed up some of the LVL versus ingredients.
- Think more like WEAPONS SHIPMENT for future challenge.

If you feel I've missed something important, please pipe up.

Again, I thank you for your feedback; it will make a difference. And to those who enjoy the challenges, thanks for adding your 2 cents as well.

MF

You forgot one critical issue: The balancing system is erratic, favoring certain combinations of levels, a medium number of players, etc. As I mentioned before, you'll have better luck running a quest with two 20s and a 14 than with 6 20s, or with 2 20s alone. I've heard some mention that there is unfair balancing by class as well, but my problems have solely been with level/number of party members.

Other than that, that's a solid list to work from. Get half those things looked into and I'll be a whole lot more inclined to run challenges :)

KillEveryone
01-19-2012, 12:44 PM
After running a few more challenges...

Rushmore...
I like....

I don't mind the time limit on these.
Power ups are kind of fun.
I like the Mario jumping in the banner hall(I like finding hidden things.)
-The Mario jumping in here doesn't bother me since I won't die from a lag jump unlike other possible Mario jumping quests.
_______________

I don't like...

The crests are a problem.
- In a group, you are hearding cats to make sure everyone is there with what crests they have.
Maybe make these available to all party members regardless of who has them like you do with parts in "Short Cuts." This my also solve the inventory problem since you don't put those parts in the backpacks.

- It is also tooo easy to not have what you need. I almost had "Behind the Door" completed on my lvl 20 except I was missing 2 crests at my last door and it was the one to exit the inner sanctum area. I broke everythig I could find on my way there.

- Elementals with the boss will continue to spawn if you have some fascinated or even bard song suggested.

- Fascination and suggestion of the elementals don't remove the buff to the boss.

- If the boss moves far enough, the elementals will teleport to the boss...still fascinated...and will occupy the same spot so you could have 4 elementals in one spot while others get summoned when the origional ones are still fascinated and there.

- The power ups are random and you don't always get to use them since stuff may have been cleared before a power up appears. They seem kind of loaded toward the beginning of the quest but that is where a lot of stuff to break is located and you really don't need a power up here.. Maybe add a couple to the empty sphers in the planatarium(the ones that never had a crest in to begin with.)

- Some spots you can't jump to without being a FvS with wings or a Air savant with their "wing" to get a crest. "Behind the Door" is a max lvl 15 so the ledges should be attainable by someone of that level otherwise you would have to be higher than that to get that crest. It is on the roof tops going away from the room where Crystal hangs out. It looks like someone should be able to jump up to there but I have not been able to hook onto anything around that spot and I'm jumping high enough that I should be able to grab onto a ledge. I can get a screenshot with the crest if I see it there again.

- The chandaliers in the banner room need to be lowered just a tad. I can catch a lip on them but it looks like I should have cleared it.

Aldured
01-22-2012, 02:33 AM
If you only did the four quests in Korthos you could easily come to the conclusion that a quest is a small dungeon hack and slash experience where ocassionally you have to talk to an NPC in order to get started beating enemies. Not only that but that rest shrines are always abundant when needed and parties always have a 6 member limit...

The way I see it there are two types of challenges (up until now):

Minigames (mining types):Gear grinders (power gamers) go through them at the highest loot grinding levels and are extatic about it (which is fine), while non power gamers use them as a pleasant sidequest for a little diversity and to help break the tension between quests.

A power gamer will obviously be willing to invest a lot in building a character, but others will most likely favor quests, classes, races and some other account upgrades since challenges are not a core part of the game.

Randomized quests (Dr Rushmore): These are a whole different beast, and I'd basically describe them as a Diablo type setting within DDO. These are more interesting (at least to me) since its a valid platform for developing a rich storyline and landscape. And mastering it is hard since it'll always change.

I find the second more rewarding, though eventually you'll want a different theme, different possible "suprises", rewards, etc (which we'll get the next Upgrade, hopefully holding on until then with regular quests). Hey I could envision Castle Ravenloft to be one of the second type of challenges. After all, each time it appears its supposed to change form (hmm Castlevania anybody?), so maybe some sections could appear on higher difficulty settings and traps could be in different places each time (hey one can dream cant he)...

Point being, for casual gamers, minigames are less rewarding since you have to be very competitive to gain anything from them and they lack the dept of an actual quest (which is good since you basically relax after questing with these). And randomized quests are a boon since you get a rewarding experience (which btw could have a larger price tag) in which you can put your skills rather than your memory to the test.


. A few alternatives...

MULTIPLE PARTIES

As I said at the begining, challenges are new and have an identity to develop (which is really great btw).

Perhaps a more social aspect could help, for example, two different groups could compete one with the other by entering a queue. When enough people enter the queue it randomly engages two parties. Then the challenge is completed by both parties, but the rewards gained are divided among them according to how much each party contributes basically:

. * Both parties are competitive:
. Both will get meaningful reward, but one is better than the other (the
. difference in performance should help determine how much)

. * One party is competitive, the other wiped or contributed significantly less:
. The better party obtains better loot but not as good as if both had
. been top notch (avoiding forefites), the other may or may not qualify for a consolation prize

. * No party manages significant progress:
. Same as any quest/challenge, you may get something but if you do it
. won't be that great

So basically two parties are pitted against each other but have to collaborate by raising the stakes. And yes, to the victor go the spoils! But, there is a consolation prize. This avoids the pitfals of parties reaching an agreement since you're pitted against a set of random parties so you never know when (or if) the other party will get the better loot AND since both parties have to work at maximum capacity chances are even if they plan to reach a "dibs on the loot" agreement they'll more often than not get carried away. But even when defeated (say one party has fresh chars and the others are all seasoned and geared second lifers) they're not likely to simply cross their arms or the consolation prize wont be worth anything at all.

One possible implementation of this scheme could be a maze race with many monsters and the finish line being in the middle with some intermediate checkpoints which are basically what helps the quality of the loot improve. The laberynth itself could consist of randomly generated intermediate sections with traps and foes plus stronger monsters before the checkpoint (and in this case it would be best if its as confusing as possible).

Another could be crest finding with puzzle solving (and yes also a race between parties), say a DDO type rally.


How about a tournament?

A completely different alternative (but still social) could be piramid like tournaments where parties fight each other and finally fight their own members themselves (say two or three prizes, so some of its members get little if anything at all). This would force characters that are more solo oriented to establish both group and individual tactics and apply them. How much they should let their own party know so they get a fair chance at beating rival parties and how much should they keep to themselves in order to win when facing their members? In any case it would generate a new kind of elitism and definition of ubber and gimp builds.

SINGLEPARTY

Returning to the more traditional aspect, perhaps the concept of minigame could be embraced in a more open manner. This way some of the character attributes that usually go largely ignored get their little spot in the sun. For example someone mentioned mario jumping, and now Im thinking lode runner and ladders... You can basically go back to the intellevision/atari/coleco era and give it dept and perspective (3d :P). This type of challenge might be less expensive but it could also be just that, a mini game for in between raids and quests (well Ill log in at 5, darn it its 5:30 and I dont want to do slayer...); and yes can more closely resemble board games (oh yeah!)


. Which leads me to...


In a nutshell, I'd guess challenges can be for anyone. We currently have 4, and they are a great step in providing a true proof of concept. But where they go next depends on many different factors including the market theyre directed to (power/casual gamers being an important split, cost another) time it requires to design them and expected cicle of life. Hence what the exact nature of challenges is I'd suppose is still unresolved.

To me (a non power gamer) current challenges are less interesting than quests, but I can easily how that could be different for other people. Perhaps in the future Challenges, Quests, Raids and Wilderness areas will be content and that content could be included in a pack (say 2 adventures a wilderness area, and a challenge; or one quest, a raid and a challenge). And finally, simpler, goofier challenges (more casual player friendly) could also help complete a pack giving it an extra boost that makes it stand out of the croud. After all, a challenge could be very similar to a board game but played with you character as a pawn :)

Well those are my 5 cents hope some of it is to your liking. Thanks for taking the time to read it. Now my barb is a happy barb and will get back to killing orcs with a smile

Melcena
01-23-2012, 12:32 PM
To be perfectly honest, I do not like the challenges in any regard. While I agree with many that Crystal Cove was fantastic, the reason it was fantastic was that it was only around for a few weeks, and people set down the goal of what they wanted to go for, and went for it. When it was over, you either had it or you didn't, and you had a lot of fond memories of "Kobold eat fresh rat tonight!". When I think of DDO, I am reminded that it's an MMORPG. Now, I find it a tragedy that we had to create an entire pack of minigames rather than actual quests and stories for people to enjoy.

To further use the cove comparison, people think it is an amazing thing to have the epic cove dagger, or even the epic cavalry plate, or a nice hat at a relatively low level with epic quality stats on it. They were nice, but as not everyone could get them, there were acceptable replacement items. Now, with the permanancy of the challenges, it have turned into a game of "Get this gear from the challenges or you can't do anything."

Eladiun
01-23-2012, 03:30 PM
MadFloyd,

Has anyone looked into the Dungeon scaling math in the challenges? From what I have seen, duoing or soloing the challenges is significantly easier and that with full parties. One of the issues is specifically in a full party the bosses/minibosses seem to be over scaled in both damage and hp compared to shortman.

Thanks.

MadFloyd
01-23-2012, 03:44 PM
MadFloyd,

Has anyone looked into the Dungeon scaling math in the challenges? From what I have seen, duoing or soloing the challenges is significantly easier and that with full parties. One of the issues is specifically in a full party the bosses/minibosses seem to be over scaled in both damage and hp compared to shortman.

Thanks.

We think we know what the issue is.

Grosbeak07
01-23-2012, 04:24 PM
Now that I have had some time to play most of the challanges on most levels, I feel I can comment a bit.

First, let me get rid of the pet peeve I've had: Requring items from Challanges that are Level 10 or 12 to upgrade to Level 8 was a mistake. You know this and this is the last I'll say of it.

What Works?

- Challenges (once you get the idea of how they work) are fairly easy to run
- The Kobold Island ones, I think are great for soloing as they make you plan our your attack a bit and how you will achieve your goals.
- Like Crystal Cove, the ones involving the Kobolds can be fun, espeically in a small group where people can focus on different aspects of the challenge.
- I happen to like the variety of loot and I like to be able to "have it grow with me" as I level.
- Xp is nice especially for a TR, when you get tired of grinding traditional quests.
- The bosses are varied and the loot, while mostly junk isn't bad for making some quick cash or breaking it down for crafting.
- No special skills or class required. Sure some classes can make certain ones easier, but you can be effective no matter what your build.

What doesn't Work (For me at least)?

- There can be a ton of dead time, especially if all your doing is farming ingredients. For example I killed a boss in Rushmoore Behind the Door, then went and moved a load of laundry from the washer to dryer, took a load out of the dryer and starterd another load of laundry and still had about 3 minutes left to twittle my thumbs until the quest ended.
- Like many, I was assuming these would be fast type "mini-games", 15-20 minutes is longer than some raids take. With no way to go afk, you really have to be committed to playing the challenge (unless you have all that dead time I mentioned).
- Because of the length of the quests, the XP is low. I know they are not designed to level you from 1 to 20, but XP is great carrott in this game. Want more people to run them? Add more xp.
- There is very limited incentive to run these quests once you 5 star them. In fact there is very little incentive for many of the optionals other than the main objective.
- Bosses can be boring beat downs, but his may be to a scaling issue already mentioned.
- Not enough "randomness" to the quests, once you memorize the maps and spawn points, the quests have very little to offer once you've run them as few as 5 or so times. Perhpas adding more rare spawns (and associated loot goodies, perhaps adding some of the challenge items as very rare pulls from these "rares")
- More loot types, such as Heavy Picks and some of the other odd weapon types, also as people have mentioned... some items for healers.
- Repetative maps. I hate most other MMO's because they use the same dungeon layout and map (Dragon Age anyone?) over and over and simply change the mobs. Each Challenge should be unique, not just rehash the same map and change the mobs.
- Maps are huge, especially Rushmoores, I just don't like the Scaling in there.

Randomness:

- I like "wave" fights when I can control the speed of the wave. I disliked the old Weapons Shipment, because you had to wait for the next wave. Make the waves intense, but give us the option of how fast to spawn them.

- I would like to see Challenges desgined for 3 members or less, short fast challenges with challenging, yet simple goals.

- Like many, I would like to see an Arena style "see how long you can last" challenge, with essentially never ending, but slowly increasing mobs in difficulty.

- I would also like to see "solo" challanges. You vs Velah or You vs a Pit Fiend, then those power ups become really important! It would also be a great way to see how your character stands up.

Overall I like the Challenges (even though my dislike list is longer than my like list), but would like to see some variation and variety to them. Your concept is sound, the implementation needs some tweaking still.

Neouni
01-24-2012, 04:56 AM
Now that I have had some time to play most of the challanges on most levels, I feel I can comment a bit.

First, let me get rid of the pet peeve I've had: Requring items from Challanges that are Level 10 or 12 to upgrade to Level 8 was a mistake. You know this and this is the last I'll say of it.

What Works?

- Challenges (once you get the idea of how they work) are fairly easy to run
- The Kobold Island ones, I think are great for soloing as they make you plan our your attack a bit and how you will achieve your goals.
- Like Crystal Cove, the ones involving the Kobolds can be fun, espeically in a small group where people can focus on different aspects of the challenge.
- I happen to like the variety of loot and I like to be able to "have it grow with me" as I level.
- Xp is nice especially for a TR, when you get tired of grinding traditional quests.
- The bosses are varied and the loot, while mostly junk isn't bad for making some quick cash or breaking it down for crafting.
- No special skills or class required. Sure some classes can make certain ones easier, but you can be effective no matter what your build.

What doesn't Work (For me at least)?

- There can be a ton of dead time, especially if all your doing is farming ingredients. For example I killed a boss in Rushmoore Behind the Door, then went and moved a load of laundry from the washer to dryer, took a load out of the dryer and starterd another load of laundry and still had about 3 minutes left to twittle my thumbs until the quest ended.
- Like many, I was assuming these would be fast type "mini-games", 15-20 minutes is longer than some raids take. With no way to go afk, you really have to be committed to playing the challenge (unless you have all that dead time I mentioned).
- Because of the length of the quests, the XP is low. I know they are not designed to level you from 1 to 20, but XP is great carrott in this game. Want more people to run them? Add more xp.
- There is very limited incentive to run these quests once you 5 star them. In fact there is very little incentive for many of the optionals other than the main objective.
- Bosses can be boring beat downs, but his may be to a scaling issue already mentioned.
- Not enough "randomness" to the quests, once you memorize the maps and spawn points, the quests have very little to offer once you've run them as few as 5 or so times. Perhpas adding more rare spawns (and associated loot goodies, perhaps adding some of the challenge items as very rare pulls from these "rares")
- More loot types, such as Heavy Picks and some of the other odd weapon types, also as people have mentioned... some items for healers.
- Repetative maps. I hate most other MMO's because they use the same dungeon layout and map (Dragon Age anyone?) over and over and simply change the mobs. Each Challenge should be unique, not just rehash the same map and change the mobs.
- Maps are huge, especially Rushmoores, I just don't like the Scaling in there.

Randomness:

- I like "wave" fights when I can control the speed of the wave. I disliked the old Weapons Shipment, because you had to wait for the next wave. Make the waves intense, but give us the option of how fast to spawn them.

- I would like to see Challenges desgined for 3 members or less, short fast challenges with challenging, yet simple goals.

- Like many, I would like to see an Arena style "see how long you can last" challenge, with essentially never ending, but slowly increasing mobs in difficulty.

- I would also like to see "solo" challanges. You vs Velah or You vs a Pit Fiend, then those power ups become really important! It would also be a great way to see how your character stands up.

Overall I like the Challenges (even though my dislike list is longer than my like list), but would like to see some variation and variety to them. Your concept is sound, the implementation needs some tweaking still.

Commenting on randomness:
1- sounds like Lotro (another game by turbine)
2- more are probably coming in the future if people like these challenges
4- Boss arena would be fun, maybe needing a questpack or completion of something to call a certain boss to the room

sirgog
01-24-2012, 05:18 AM
We think we know what the issue is.

Biggest issue I see is that about 4 things scale with player numbers:

* Number of mobs per INCOMING
* Frequency of INCOMINGs
* Mob damage output
* Mob durability.

Single-player, I often see less than 5 mobs in an ENTIRE 5 minute Time is Money. My 4-star CR 25 solo run I saw 2. OTOH, in 4-5 player runs, you often get 20+ mobs in the 5 minutes, and each one is tougher.

hit_fido
01-24-2012, 06:24 AM
Single-player, I often see less than 5 mobs in an ENTIRE 5 minute Time is Money. My 4-star CR 25 solo run I saw 2. OTOH, in 4-5 player runs, you often get 20+ mobs in the 5 minutes, and each one is tougher.

If you mean ~5 mobs or less rushing the center/foreman area, that seems about where it should be for solo runs - if they tune it up much you'll have to park by the foreman just to defend and then never be able to work your line (unless you're a self hasting/ddoor character). You'll still see plenty of mobs as you run out to set torches and herd your kobolds, right? If you mean you literally see less than five mobs during the entire run that does sound oddly low but unlike what I've seen where mobs spawn wherever you go.

As it is now after getting the hang of the two crystal type challenge maps, I've found it possible (on a non blue bar character) to reach the quota but never very much more, which sounds about what they wanted for solo runs: doable but relatively low rewards.

Phemt81
01-24-2012, 08:07 AM
We think we know what the issue is.

Yeah they cost too much and don't give Turbine Points! :D

Lerincho
01-24-2012, 08:18 AM
Biggest issue I see is that about 4 things scale with player numbers:

* Number of mobs per INCOMING
* Frequency of INCOMINGs
* Mob damage output
* Mob durability.

Single-player, I often see less than 5 mobs in an ENTIRE 5 minute Time is Money. My 4-star CR 25 solo run I saw 2. OTOH, in 4-5 player runs, you often get 20+ mobs in the 5 minutes, and each one is tougher.

Not to mention the fact that it appears that the scaling includes hirelings. A trio doing the quest is much different than a trio doing the quest with hirelings.

Osma77
01-24-2012, 09:58 AM
- Like many, I would like to see an Arena style "see how long you can last" challenge, with essentially never ending, but slowly increasing mobs in difficulty.



/signed

I think something like this, which would be simular to devils assault (but perferably being able to trigger the next wave) would be awesome. Either items could be assigned based off of surviving the wave, or more likely, would be that each wave would provide mobs that were worth more points, and once everyone in the party was dead for 60 seconds, the quest would end, providing end reward items based off of score. (this would be intresting with arty or pets where the party could be dead but their pets were still eeking out those last few points)

redspecter23
01-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Not to mention the fact that it appears that the scaling includes hirelings. A trio doing the quest is much different than a trio doing the quest with hirelings.

I'm not sure hirelings should add to scaling at all and certainly not as much as they currently do. If I'm bringing a hireling into a quest with me, 95% of the time it's simply to keep my toon healed if I don't have any burst healing of my own (typically me on a melee toon). I'm sure it's been mentioned before about the soloability of casters vs melee, but this aspect here just solidifies that fact even more. If you can't self heal, you're essentially adding 50% or more to the scaling than if you just brought a caster to run it instead. Bottom line is that in the situation outlined above, that poor melee toon with no burst self healing is not only taking up a valuable party slot to simply heal himself, but adding to the overall difficulty of the dungeon for everyone involved.

My thought? Remove all scaling from adding hirelings to the party. The only time they actually pull their weight to any significant degree other than healing is in lower content and scaling is much less of an issue there anyway so it's not noticed as much. I can't even imagine a reason to have a melee hireling in a higher level group. The mob hp added through scaling is probably more than the hireling's damage output, making it counterproductive to bring him along for what I can only imagine his intended purpose would be, adding damage.

Edit. Ok I did think of a reason to bring a melee hireling along in high level content. In cases where I specifically want more mobs or tougher mobs, such as in extraplanar mining where you need to kill a certain number of mobs for a star objective. In that case, having any dead weight hireling or added party member will help you with that objective so I guess that's one reason.

WangoFett
01-24-2012, 03:17 PM
Third, BtA switching to BtC. It's not very apparent that this happens, and I've heard of more than a couple players making a tier 3 on the wrong toon thinking it's BtA. I think they should be BtC on tier 3, but that should be more obvious (like a warning message, similar to the one you get when you are about to equip a BtA or BtC on Equip item).


<snarfle>
Just stung myself doing this. This behavior is pretty unintuitive. Now I have a pair of tier 3 bracers bound to and useless for my caster.
I agree there should be a warning at least.
If the devs want to foster a player attitude of wariness and mistrust towards DDO then this feature should be left as is. I don't know how new players deal with this sort of thing happening to them.
</snarfle>

somenewnoob
01-25-2012, 12:36 PM
There isn't really a polite way to say this. You completely effed up and dropped the ball with this last update nerfing the rewards.

Less grind is good, but you just increased it. There is very little reason to purchase this pack now. You should have increased the other rewards to bring them more in line with the higher ones, NOT decreased the higher ones.

Fail.

bhgiant
01-25-2012, 12:52 PM
There isn't really a polite way to say this. You completely effed up and dropped the ball with this last update nerfing the rewards.

Less grind is good, but you just increased it. There is very little reason to purchase this pack now. You should have increased the other rewards to bring them more in line with the higher ones, NOT decreased the higher ones.

Fail.
I would generally agree. The ingredients are very grindy, BUT, the rewards are WORTH the grind. In general, you value something more when you work for it and inversely, when you work hard for something you expect the reward to be worth it. Getting 600 ingredients in one run removes that. Imo, the nerf to ingredients was needed. BUT, an increase in ingredients for other challenges is DEFINITELY needed. To me, they are half way to an optimal setup.

whereispowderedsilve
01-25-2012, 12:52 PM
There isn't really a polite way to say this. You completely effed up and dropped the ball with this last update nerfing the rewards.

Less grind is good, but you just increased it. There is very little reason to purchase this pack now. You should have increased the other rewards to bring them more in line with the higher ones, NOT decreased the higher ones.

Fail.

What he said times 2! Please take a look at this again! Thanks!

Aeolwind
01-25-2012, 01:27 PM
Sorry Mal, after today's patch your 'goodwill' well with many people just went dry.

Scraap
01-25-2012, 03:55 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=359241

^This type of thing, while you've got this thread up...

BossOfEarth
01-28-2012, 08:08 PM
In honor of this thread, I've been playing some Challenges. I've found that on my TR with lots of raid loot and GS weapons, that it's a very pleasant experience. I've especialy enjoyed Extraplanar Mining: The Dragon's Horde. The pacing is great, a few attacks to keep me on my toes but not so many that I can't enjoy running torch lines.

I tried going one above my level (level 14) I got more rewards and the fights were more exciting but the Kobolds seemed to die much quicker. Next I'm going to try guarding the foreman with a hireling so I can focus elsewhere.

I also got my first reward, a pair of level 4 rock boots. I like them alot since they essentialy replace the functionality of my Reflecting Shield.

ferrite
02-03-2012, 12:02 PM
So I've played nearly all the challenges each many times, going both solo and in a group. From that experience I notice one of the major problems with these is that they simply don't scale well, based on group members.

Going solo 'at level', its nearly impossible in many of the challenges to do anything meaningful to get a reasonable score in the time allotted. Extraplanar palace and lava caves in particular are notorious, as you no more start running torches then 10 seconds later 'Incoming!' and every 15-30 seconds thereafter. For most classes without Dimension Door or a purchased store item, its impossible to both run torches and return to the base to defend it, can't be in both places at once. Therefore I recommend reducing the number of wandering mobs attempting to reach the foreman by at least half, maybe more, specifically for solo runs. The remainder of stationary mobs seeded throughout the map seems appropriate and done well.

In full groups played 'at level', I feel there aren't enough encounters to keep the party busy, and the experience tends to feel a bit easy at times. For this I would recommend increasing the number of encounters slightly (notice the keyword here 'slightly', which btw does not mean double or triple mind you). This will give players something to do during the dead time while waiting for the quest to end.

As for the lich or marilith spawn when you reach the quota, in the extraplanar palace. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this concept is, or why its necessary to have a really tough boss spawn on solo runs, with the sole intent of killing the foreman and wiping out all kobolds above anything else after the player merely reaches their quota. Is there some reason for this event besides someone's twisted sense of humor? The only thing this spawn does is serve to annoy players. This was a bad idea; these bosses need to be removed. No 'surprise spawn' should appear once you achieve your goal.. the idea is to reward players, not punish them.

I may have more to add later after I run some more.

Thrudh
02-03-2012, 12:20 PM
Hey did you guys increase the number of crests that drop in Picture Portal?

I haven't had a failed run in a while now due to missing a crest.

I've had a few doors I couldn't open, but so far I've always been able to make it to at least 1 boss...

And the drop rate on goblets is MUCH better... thank you!

redspecter23
02-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Hey did you guys increase the number of crests that drop in Picture Portal?

I haven't had a failed run in a while now due to missing a crest.

I've had a few doors I couldn't open, but so far I've always been able to make it to at least 1 boss...

And the drop rate on goblets is MUCH better... thank you!

I had a rather annoying run a couple days ago. Gathered up all the crests in the first section and cleared the first door. Made it all the way to the rogue boss. Needed 2 scorp crests but only had 1. I had at least 4 or 5 of every other crest. No biggie I thought, I'll just run up to the Succubus instead. Surprise! I need 2 scorps for that door too. sigh. I was on a solo monk at level 20 so the other bosses weren't really an option I was happy with. Recall, go do a kobold quest instead for greater rewards in less time with almost 0% chance of random failure.

On a related note, can we get an increase to the ingredient drops in Rushmore please? I know it's been asked before, but you spend much more time in there than other challenges. Also making 3 of the bosses ridicuhard for melee (and just plain insanely hard in general) has me scratching my head. Am I missing some obvious way to make these other 3 boss fights much less annoying on higher levels? On level 4 I soloed all the bosses on an at level melee toon. I can't imagine doing that on any epicly geared melee toon at level 20. At least not on a regular basis. The level scaling seems way out of whack. The best way to farm that quest shouldn't be to keep a toon parked at level 14 so they can run it easier because of wonky scaling. If my relative power compared to the mobs actually goes down as I level up, that is hopefully not WAI.

Another edit. How will this work when our max level increases to 25? Will we essentially be cut off from standard ingredient runs (or take a 5 level penalty). Also running at level 25 won't give us any sort of bonus like it does now, but we won't really have the option to run at level 21 anymore either. I don't like the idea of having to park toons on lower levels just so I can get challenge ingredients. It's a minor issue right now with the level 4 challenges, but once cap goes to 25, it becomes a much larger issue.

orakio
02-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Overall I love the challenges. They are (mostly)fun and interesting and really do some things that I have not seen out of many other quests.

One thing that concerns me though is the challenge reward diversity, or really the lack thereof. Some builds and characters see some excellent returns as far as items go, others really receive little to nothing.

In particular I refer to divines, particularly WF FvS followers of the LoB, and tanks. There are no challenge Greatswords, Bastard Swords, or Dwarven Axes. Nor are there any shields for tanks. The system is absolutely fantastic and an expansion on it would be welcome just don't forget about some of those builds that are kind of specific in their needs.

Kinerd
02-03-2012, 07:03 PM
So I've played nearly all the challenges each many times, going both solo and in a group. From that experience I notice one of the major problems with these is that they simply don't scale well, based on group members.

Going solo 'at level', its nearly impossible in many of the challenges to do anything meaningful to get a reasonable score in the time allotted. Extraplanar palace and lava caves in particular are notorious, as you no more start running torches then 10 seconds later 'Incoming!' and every 15-30 seconds thereafter. For most classes without Dimension Door or a purchased store item, its impossible to both run torches and return to the base to defend it, can't be in both places at once. Therefore I recommend reducing the number of wandering mobs attempting to reach the foreman by at least half, maybe more, specifically for solo runs. The remainder of stationary mobs seeded throughout the map seems appropriate and done well.

In full groups played 'at level', I feel there aren't enough encounters to keep the party busy, and the experience tends to feel a bit easy at times. For this I would recommend increasing the number of encounters slightly (notice the keyword here 'slightly', which btw does not mean double or triple mind you). This will give players something to do during the dead time while waiting for the quest to end.

As for the lich or marilith spawn when you reach the quota, in the extraplanar palace. I'm not entirely sure what the point of this concept is, or why its necessary to have a really tough boss spawn on solo runs, with the sole intent of killing the foreman and wiping out all kobolds above anything else after the player merely reaches their quota. Is there some reason for this event besides someone's twisted sense of humor? The only thing this spawn does is serve to annoy players. This was a bad idea; these bosses need to be removed. No 'surprise spawn' should appear once you achieve your goal.. the idea is to reward players, not punish them.

I may have more to add later after I run some more.I have had dramatically different experiences, especially in the Cove clones. I do much better solo than in a group, especially if the individual group members can't take care of themselves. The increase in frequency and size of incursions in a group means someone has to stay at the start for defense, so anyone clearing has to do more work just to get back to zero change. The only advantage I've found is being able to send someone after the explorer optionals (dragon, motes, arena, etc.), but even that is not terrific. What it sounds like to me is your character is not especially self-sufficient, so its difficulties soloing are not indicative of problems with soloing per se. This should not be taken as a personal criticism.

I also rather like the boss spawns. The lich is literally unkillable for low level arcanes, yes, but everything else is workable, and they give a chest (which someday might contain renown), and they provide a tidy increase to score. It's really not a surprise after the first time.
I had a rather annoying run a couple days ago. Gathered up all the crests in the first section and cleared the first door. Made it all the way to the rogue boss. Needed 2 scorp crests but only had 1. I had at least 4 or 5 of every other crest. No biggie I thought, I'll just run up to the Succubus instead. Surprise! I need 2 scorps for that door too. sigh. I was on a solo monk at level 20 so the other bosses weren't really an option I was happy with. Recall, go do a kobold quest instead for greater rewards in less time with almost 0% chance of random failure.

On a related note, can we get an increase to the ingredient drops in Rushmore please? I know it's been asked before, but you spend much more time in there than other challenges. Also making 3 of the bosses ridicuhard for melee (and just plain insanely hard in general) has me scratching my head. Am I missing some obvious way to make these other 3 boss fights much less annoying on higher levels? On level 4 I soloed all the bosses on an at level melee toon. I can't imagine doing that on any epicly geared melee toon at level 20. At least not on a regular basis. The level scaling seems way out of whack. The best way to farm that quest shouldn't be to keep a toon parked at level 14 so they can run it easier because of wonky scaling. If my relative power compared to the mobs actually goes down as I level up, that is hopefully not WAI.

Another edit. How will this work when our max level increases to 25? Will we essentially be cut off from standard ingredient runs (or take a 5 level penalty). Also running at level 25 won't give us any sort of bonus like it does now, but we won't really have the option to run at level 21 anymore either. I don't like the idea of having to park toons on lower levels just so I can get challenge ingredients. It's a minor issue right now with the level 4 challenges, but once cap goes to 25, it becomes a much larger issue.The sad fact is the people in charge have no idea what the air elemental experience is like in game.

Also, the cap isn't really going to 25. Instead, the levels will be on another axis: epic levels. If coded properly, it should have no impact whatsoever on any other level-based mechanic in game, including but not limited to ingredient return from challenges.

DavionFuxa
02-04-2012, 02:38 AM
I'm a F2P Player who finally decided to start using the Challenge Tokens I was stockpiling. Anyhow, the answer your first two questions at the beginning of the thread - with the bonus of attempting to keep them short, concise, and constructive:

For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?
One of the biggest problems with the Challenges I find is that they cater to soloists - and this includes Kobold Island (everyone has to split up and solo defend an Extractor). The one exception might be Dr. Rushmore's Mansion since you can slightly get away with everyone traveling in a group.

An additional problem though is that you can't really take anyone in to do a challenge with you. Dr Mushmore's Mansion will scale horribly as you pick up additionally characters, and you really need a Spellcaster to do well. In the Kobold Island, Lava Caves, or Extraplanar Palace, self sufficiency is King; and if you can't take care of yourself then your doomed because no one is going to be around to help you - even though there may be 5 people with you in the challenge.

The Second biggest problem is that some of the challenges aren't easy to understand. Even after running all the challenges now a good 5 or so times, I don't necessarily have a mastered grasp on executing a strategy for any of them. I understand the basics of what to do in them sure, but then I also understand the basics of Chess. Like chess in learning a few moves to checkmate the opponent, I can learn a few ideas on how to farm out a quest to generate a lot of easy Epic Ingredients on a few specific Challenges; but that's a far cry for mastering how to get 5 stars.

Repetition may somewhat help but the fact is I only get so many tokens from the NPC that dispenses them, so I'm more concerned with maximizing my ingredients. Buying the Pack may alleviate that problem but the way I see it - 1495 Turbine Points could get me access to several adventure packs with nice loot, overall favor and favor for a specific faction, potential epic content, and a more enjoyable experience. Additionally, just with the free challenges tokens, I'll eventually get what I want out of the content so that's even more reason to ignore buying Vault of the Artificers.

For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?
While there is a lot to dislike about Challenges, I do like the concept of having repeatable quests that can be run at anytime for any reason. I also like the idea of it being worthwhile in some way that isn't necessarily overpowered or out of sync with the rest of the game. I can't particularly say I heavily enjoyed the current challenges, but then I don't heavily enjoy favor grinding or farming something either. As long as the rewards are there then getting those rewards is enjoyable in themselves.

Further Thoughts and Opinions

I wish I could say more but really, the current challenges need heavy refinement, and many people have already stated most of what needs to be said. I would add that if you want to sell Vault of the Artificers and really address the two problems I've stated above then a solution is fairly simple:

Make More Challenges, and center them around having a group that focuses more on assisting each other then running off solo. Add those challenges into the Vault of the Artificer so that it might actually become worth the high cost. Finally, make it so that it isn't centered around having specific classes - have it so that you can pick up 5 people to group with and then enter the challenge without fear because you don't have a specific class with you.

MRMechMan
02-04-2012, 07:08 AM
Please make all challenges scale to level 20. Please make daily tokens BTA not BTC. Is there a reason to make then BTC? What if, you know, we want to run a challenge on a different character?

Having ALL your tokens BOUND to your main, capped character means that you effectively can't make lower level items as you get a MASSIVELY reduced ing/min ratio as you are forced to run CR15 challenges on a level 20 character, probably solo unless you have some friends willing to help for hours and know they will get next to NOTHING out of it.

There is also no way to trade for these lower level ing, forcing people to grind out these ing at 2-3/min, which SUCKS.

Is this a ploy to get people to buy the pack? Nice try, pretty underhanded...but at 1500 or whatever TP, my monk can go without a lowbie spare hand.

crypt_b
02-04-2012, 05:51 PM
I have a few reasons not to like the challenges that I think Turbine should really think about before implementing a new type of quest.

1. Very few people actually go for the stars. This would not be a problem unless you don't want to put up the cash for arti. I don't think that it is right that Turbine is making VIP's unlock it or pay extra money especially since we will have to pay for an expansion pack soon.

2. I personally do not like the grind of the events (though I still do it for gear) let alone for challenges. Finding a balance between completing stars and the ingredients could solve both of these problems if done right.

3. Do we really need another crafting system? With regular crafting, epic crafting, item upgrade per raid (ie gianthold and necro 4), item upgrades per pack (ie lordsmarch and madness set), and shroud crafting there seems to be little point to doing house c/challenge crafting as well. I realize that for years people have been asking for crafting other than shroud but this has gone a little overboard in my opinion. Why can't we have one or two crafting systems all tied in together?

Until this last week I have refused to do the challenges in hope that Turbine would come to their senses and realize that VIP's should not have to pay for arti. Since that didn't look like it was going to happen, I finally broke down and decided to try to unlock it with favor but that may not happen with the only people doing challenges are those looking for ingredients.

balancetraveller
02-11-2012, 10:25 AM
Since my play time has been fragmented recently, I play challenges a lot more than quests/raids nowadays. And here are some of my thoughts:


There should be a way to convert epic ingredients down to normal ingredients, and a 1:1 rate would seem reasonable. As time has progressed, the majority of Lv20 challenge LFMs are doing them now on epics (CR21 ~ 25), and this has become a hindrance for basic ingredients collecting.

Over half of Lv20 challenge LFMs are now only doing mining challenges, mostly Extraplanar Mining: Buying Time, since the ingredients/time ratio is the most stellar (powergamers are putting up LFMs advertizing their ratio as 2 ~ 3 epic tokens per 20 minute). Mansion challenges on the other hand have come to be hated for the long play time to complete a single run (30 ~ 45 minutes on average needed for 200 ~ 300 ingredients). Hopefully this issue can be addressed for in some way, otherwise the difficulty of finding a group to obtain some certain ingredients have become a very tough job.

PhattyMcbutterpants
02-16-2012, 10:32 AM
I will toss in my 2 cp

If your are gonna toss out a kopesh, where is the dwarven axe love?

more over where is the dwarven axe love in the game ingeneral?

less specificly I would like to see more weapon type options.

ferrite
02-25-2012, 05:24 PM
I have more to say on the topic.

If you're gonna create a series of minigames with the condition of victory a race against the clock, then you'd *better* have the lag situation on your servers under control. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a group or solo, and everyone 'lags out' at the same time, and either the foreman is killed because of it or the spawned mobs mow through the players and everyone finds themselves instantly dead when they reconnect.

C'mon guys, the lag situation at Turbine is beyond ridiculous now. How do you expect to attract and keep paying customers with your 1MB server memory and 56k dialup connection? How can you expect them to plunk down cash for the Challenge pack, the most expensive pack in the DDO store if poor, nay terrible, server performance is what they can expect?

We don't want to hear any more excuses for the lag, we just want you to fix it. So yea, either fix the lag in challenges or step aside and find someone who can.

I still yet may have more to say.

SeaWolf925
03-04-2012, 11:41 AM
Presently, I have not found any of my toons that can do Rushmore. The only way I do it is to get guildie Wiz/Monk, cast invisibility on me and follow him around, fight at boss fights and back to invisible. Overall challanges are for those times when there is too much going to group with people. Kill a little time, and no big deal if I get called away from game. I use whatever I collect eventually.

MaXimillionZero
03-07-2012, 06:25 AM
What I gleam out of the more recent posts is that waves of mobs with forced rests between them in a tight environment is not as fun as letting the players choose their own pace and progress from battle to battle (or perhaps my own biases are creeping in here).To improve wave-based quests, learn from the genre that uses that mechanic almost exclusively (tower defense), and implement a way to instantly summon the next wave. Either an interface button, a level, an NPC you talk to, doesn't matter, as long as it's fast to use.

Not sure if you're still reading the thread, but figured I'd post it anyway.

Feralthyrtiaq
03-07-2012, 09:45 AM
it doesn't increase the ML of the item...

Ran (and ran and ran) post u13 challenges to make a Tier 3, ML12 Frozen Tunic, craft a Deathblock Shard, Crunch and now have a ML16 item (even with MasterCraftmanship Shard) that I cannot (and will not) wear at the level I wanted it for (Chr Lvl 12) I have also a ML16 Tier 2 Frozen Tunic, ML16 Mabar Cloak + Many DT options so my work on upgrading the ML12 Tunic to Tier 3 just gave me essentially something I am loath to vendor and will not use...

/sighs

It seems the effort put forth to add a +3 Craftable Slot would be better used getting an item for another toon...

Kinerd
03-07-2012, 05:52 PM
Something weird is going on with the craftable stuff, because my level 16 Cloak of Flame is level 16 even with +5 Reflex save on it. It also didn't get any bonus for having Masterful on it.

EliahuTheMighty
03-11-2012, 09:51 PM
Two issues I noticed with challenges. First, has the Island Djinn ever been implemented into Kobold Chaos? My understanding is that that star (And therefore 6-star rating) is not even achievable. This is kinda ridiculous guys. :-/.

Second issue I noticed was that upon what should have been a 6-star completion of Epic Time is Money, I received only 5 stars. All objectives were completed before completion of the run.

Rinnaldo
03-11-2012, 11:09 PM
Two issues I noticed with challenges. First, has the Island Djinn ever been implemented into Kobold Chaos? My understanding is that that star (And therefore 6-star rating) is not even achievable. This is kinda ridiculous guys. :-/.

I have fought the island djinn exactly one time. You have to (at least in my experience) have a large extractor at level three, and then defend it from a few waves of enemies, and then the djinn will finally show up.

Kinerd
03-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Two issues I noticed with challenges. First, has the Island Djinn ever been implemented into Kobold Chaos? My understanding is that that star (And therefore 6-star rating) is not even achievable. This is kinda ridiculous guys. :-/.

Second issue I noticed was that upon what should have been a 6-star completion of Epic Time is Money, I received only 5 stars. All objectives were completed before completion of the run.For the second issue, were you at level 25? I dimly recall that you can only gold star challenges at their highest level.

Deathdefy
03-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Two issues I noticed with challenges. First, has the Island Djinn ever been implemented into Kobold Chaos? My understanding is that that star (And therefore 6-star rating) is not even achievable. This is kinda ridiculous guys. :-/.


The Djinn turns up if your score (or shards extracted stockpile... not sure which) is over 2000 (pretty sure, though I hate writing it so definitively since I don't think he spawns the instant you tick that box unlike like the Marilith or Cloud Giant). I increasingly think that it's better to spawn him before upgrading the final large; possibly before ugrading the final 2 larges.

EnjoyTheJourney
04-13-2012, 04:36 PM
I just finished getting my first item from the challenges, which was a level 8 elemental rapier of air, for my soloist rogue. My experience was a mixture of fun and frustration, the reasons for which I'll describe below.

The challenges I've done have generally been fun, with the exception of the Rushmore challenge; it wasn't at all fun, and I'll not play again. That fact had the unfortunate effect of making the planning process more complicated, by pushing me to plan for resource swaps. On that note, it took about two hours to plan out the trials to take and resources needed to get three items for my rogue, up to level 20 (ring of the stalker, elemental rapier of air, mournlode light mace). Much of the complexity in planning was due to finding the Rushmore missions unenjoyable, which led me to the Wiki page devoted entirely to explaining the mechanics of how to exchange resources, at different levels.

Two good things about items in the challenges are that they're available reliably and they're pretty good items for a variety of classes; they're particularly appealing for no twink players. Still, these are the only good things, as everything else about the process of getting items was gratuitously and unpleasantly complicated.

In closing, I'd like to suggest for future challenges that complicated resource exchange / crafting systems are not necessarily a source of enjoyment; new content may (emphasis on *MAY*) be enjoyable enough to overcome the irritations associated with dealing with a complicated resource exchange / crafting system. But, it also may not.

Ahnya_DLucien
04-13-2012, 06:10 PM
concept-wise, i really like rushmoore's mansion and the kobold/lava-caves/extraplanar-palace. i think the concept is fun, and the kobolds are ridiculously entertaining to me.

the main issue with all of the challenges is if you are not a dps build... you are essentially hosed. if you are any type of support character or anything else non-dps, you have a high likelihood of failure.
you have to have dps of some sort to beat the clocks. period. :(

another specific issue i and my friends have is when doing rushmoore's, you can totally fail because the correct crests haven't spawned/dropped.

Warinx
04-14-2012, 10:38 PM
I like the challenges, it's really nice while leveling or grinding to break the pace and do something different.

era42
04-15-2012, 12:12 AM
The overly steep scaling is just nasty.

Trying these challenges with my poorly geared 20-level paladin, my role in the 3-person group was to actually hurt the challenge. Due to the larger amount of the harder mobs, the better geared two had more trouble doing the challenges. Especially so after bringing in a pocket-healer to keep the poor paladin alive, upping the scaling even further. Adding more members should not have that profound counter-effect for quest completions, even if they are not greatly self-sufficient. The requirement for splitting up increases this effect even further.

Later when I leveled my sorcerer, soloing the challenges proved trivial, soloing lava caves 20 at level 18 sorc was so much easier than the party-version in level 16 (learning run) on my level 20 paladin. Partly of course due to the solo capabilities, but the scaling is bad bad bad. I pug quests a lot, but I would not even consider pugging challenges due to the heavy scaling.


The other big problem is that the stars do not grant tokens. Trying for stars is much more fun than just grinding points. But, after one star-run there is zero incentive to go for the stars. Colossal crystals, you grab the one crystal and then just max mining. Same with other mining quests, ignore objectives and mindlessly grind the points.Bad design, boring grind.

The final major hurdle are the buggy rewards. Calomel weapons corrosive salt overwriting niac's biting cold, the robes ice prison having stacking issues with arty runearms. Epic slotting problems. Those I could think from the top of my head, probably others too. For a 1500tp pack with so little content, these really need to be fixed.

The challenges themselves are all right I guess, a change of pace to questing at times. Kobold island is horrible though, do not want. Good thing the tokens can be exchanged.

Osma77
04-15-2012, 09:44 PM
The other big problem is that the stars do not grant tokens. Trying for stars is much more fun than just grinding points. But, after one star-run there is zero incentive to go for the stars. Colossal crystals, you grab the one crystal and then just max mining. Same with other mining quests, ignore objectives and mindlessly grind the points.Bad design, boring grind.

Yes, yes, and no.
Yes, once you hit 20, the stars are useless.
Yes, many of the quests are vastly hurt by going for stars (due to excessive requirements).
No, at low levels you can get one great exp burst from high number of stars, and some challanges are fast enough that higher number of stars gives a good exp/min while still getting ingredients. Lava caves time is money, when done properly by someone that knows what they are doing, can get exceptional exp while still earning 100-175 lava shards each 5 min.

era42
04-15-2012, 10:16 PM
Yes, yes, and no.
Yes, once you hit 20, the stars are useless.
Yes, many of the quests are vastly hurt by going for stars (due to excessive requirements).
No, at low levels you can get one great exp burst from high number of stars, and some challanges are fast enough that higher number of stars gives a good exp/min while still getting ingredients. Lava caves time is money, when done properly by someone that knows what they are doing, can get exceptional exp while still earning 100-175 lava shards each 5 min.

Ok, that partly true. For maybe 2 challenges? (the short cave and short extraplanar). Even then, grinding exp/tokens with a low-level char I would likely skip the 200 teleports and just grab a few more tokens after getting the one good star-run. And killing dragon / hunting for tokens in extraplanar instead of just collecting crystals and finishing with 1-3 stars, that's the way to go in my opinion. You still get the tokens, and some exp, so it's better than doing on 20-level. But, even then I would ignore all but the easy stars. I have to say, I haven't tested doing repeated exp on many of the longer challenges, so I might have a wrong perception on them.

Chai
04-15-2012, 10:27 PM
The other big problem is that the stars do not grant tokens. Trying for stars is much more fun than just grinding points. But, after one star-run there is zero incentive to go for the stars. Colossal crystals, you grab the one crystal and then just max mining. Same with other mining quests, ignore objectives and mindlessly grind the points.Bad design, boring grind.



I wouldnt call that a mindless grind at all. It requires paying attention to where the spawn points of purples are while running, even if youre not getting them this instant. The map will be different each time and needs to be scouted. The challenges are less of a mindless grind than the raids in this game, by far. Items can be also completed in far less time.

era42
04-15-2012, 10:56 PM
I wouldnt call that a mindless grind at all. It requires paying attention to where the spawn points of purples are while running, even if youre not getting them this instant. The map will be different each time and needs to be scouted. The challenges are less of a mindless grind than the raids in this game, by far. Items can be also completed in far less time.

True, but again only partly. Go right, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. Otherwise go left, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. If not, either wait for a couple of minutes and try again, or scramble and/or buy more time. More choises, but you only see the same 2 corridors and pretty much the same mobs. Yes, when you have done shroud 20 or 100 times, it is more monotonous than when doing the challenge for the 5th time, but at 10th the challenge will catch up. And here we are talking about the best bang for the buck 5-minute one...

So, I rather run 5 different quests than run the same challenge 5-10 for exp.Tokens, sure, items are nice enough to grind for but not nice enough that I'd be compelled to make them for every toon. And raids, I much rather do yet another Shroud with 11 other people than yet another time is money solo/duo. Kobold island looks like it could be better with a big party, but all the others are probably best with 2-3 solo-optimized toons. Sure, DDO probably lacks the "massive" from mmo, but when a challenge is easier alone than with 6 people, there's something wrong.

And yes, after all that complaining, most of the challenges are basically all right. I can see myself doing many of them once on my every solo-focused toon. I just wish they could be pugged.

Chai
04-16-2012, 07:29 AM
True, but again only partly. Go right, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. Otherwise go left, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. If not, either wait for a couple of minutes and try again, or scramble and/or buy more time. More choises, but you only see the same 2 corridors and pretty much the same mobs. Yes, when you have done shroud 20 or 100 times, it is more monotonous than when doing the challenge for the 5th time, but at 10th the challenge will catch up. And here we are talking about the best bang for the buck 5-minute one...

The maps are always different. More can be said for the challenges than can be said for the raids that are pretty much always the same every time you go back.


So, I rather run 5 different quests than run the same challenge 5-10 for exp.Tokens, sure, items are nice enough to grind for but not nice enough that I'd be compelled to make them for every toon. And raids, I much rather do yet another Shroud with 11 other people than yet another time is money solo/duo. Kobold island looks like it could be better with a big party, but all the others are probably best with 2-3 solo-optimized toons. Sure, DDO probably lacks the "massive" from mmo, but when a challenge is easier alone than with 6 people, there's something wrong.

Some of those items are the best items in slot for many builds. The khopesh are equivilent in DPS to lit2 and have icy prison and epic slots.


And yes, after all that complaining, most of the challenges are basically all right. I can see myself doing many of them once on my every solo-focused toon. I just wish they could be pugged.

I pug them all the time. They cant be mindlessly PUGed though where you take the first 5 and dont say a thing just expecting people to know how to run them in the best way possible. In order to succeed at the challenges, you have to lead and give very specific directions. Colossal crystals - 2 in the center, 2 scouting, 2 torch team clearing = win = 3 epic tokens per run.

Because of the fact that the map is different it requires communication so its not like a normal gianthold walk up PUG where no one needs to say a word because everyone knows it inside and out. It doesnt matter if its your 3rd time running or 103rd.

Altaweir
04-16-2012, 07:44 AM
Wow, 24 pages of feedback already, little chance that mine will ever be read at all. Anyway.

Playing a healer, I find challenges horrible. All those I've played require group to split and run everywhere for any chance of success. It means I'm always lagging behind - cleric and FvS are horribly slow - and spend my time running to heal here and there - usually at diagonal extreme points of the map, of course. Often you hear "incoming" and rush at slug speed, drinking haste pots frantically just to arrive once a couple Kobold workers are dead.

Challenges are great for self-sustaining classes, but penalize specialists. Perhaps it's intended?

I guess a self-healing, quick-as-a-bolt light monk has lots of fun in challenges. With my toons, well, less so.

Other comments:
- No storyline.
- Awful grind. More ingredients-you-can't-trade! Fun!
- Success and stars are exclusive, which sounds odd (you have to compromise on ingredient rewards to get more stars)
- Stars are not as clearly stated as optional objectives in usual quests, and often counter-intuitive. More than once we played "as normal people would expect" and discovered later that we botched a star (keep disruption giant alive for 5 minutes...)

Challenges remind me more of a boardgame than of AD&D.

Infant
04-16-2012, 07:52 AM
True, but again only partly. Go right, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. Otherwise go left, check for purples. Yes? Mine and win. If not, either wait for a couple of minutes and try again, or scramble and/or buy more time.

I found the following to be a better approach:

Check right (if there is a purple at the water, the spot has enough for quota). If empty, DON't go left -- too many drow, to much running. Instead go north. Look left, below at the bridge. If there is a bunch of purples below at the north part of bridge or at the south part (cavern entrance), ff there, check for circle. If not drop all the way to the lava river. Check spots n, e, w from underneath the bridge you dropped from. Worst case, if no purples+circles there, follow the lava to the west and hope for mining locations.

Using this approach, rarely do I miss my quota. Unfortunately it only works really well if you have a DDoor (I run it on my bard) to be able to move quickly. But I can imagine one could work around it on a non-DDoor character.

Infant

When hunting for mats in this challenge, I never buy time.

Glenalth
04-16-2012, 12:43 PM
I found the following to be a better approach:

Check right (if there is a purple at the water, the spot has enough for quota). If empty, DON't go left -- too many drow, to much running. Instead go north. Look left, below at the bridge. If there is a bunch of purples below at the north part of bridge or at the south part (cavern entrance), ff there, check for circle. If not drop all the way to the lava river. Check spots n, e, w from underneath the bridge you dropped from. Worst case, if no purples+circles there, follow the lava to the west and hope for mining locations.

Using this approach, rarely do I miss my quota. Unfortunately it only works really well if you have a DDoor (I run it on my bard) to be able to move quickly. But I can imagine one could work around it on a non-DDoor character.

Infant

When hunting for mats in this challenge, I never buy time.

I do this all the time on characters without Dimension Door. There are about 6 pad locations I check and if I can't throw down a teleporter near a good cluster I just recall out and head right back in. Otherwise I just use the teleporter to bounce between base and watching the suicidal reptiles.

ThePrincipal
04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
Can someone explain to me how the XP works for the Challenges?

I ran a lvl 16 quest on my lvl 18 character, and got like 8k xp. I ran the same quest again and got 3k. I ran it again at lvl 17, and got 4k xp.

I was hoping to go to lvl 19 just off the challenges but 3k per run isnt going to cut the mustard.

MartinusWyllt
04-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Can someone explain to me how the XP works for the Challenges?

I ran a lvl 16 quest on my lvl 18 character, and got like 8k xp. I ran the same quest again and got 3k. I ran it again at lvl 17, and got 4k xp.

I was hoping to go to lvl 19 just off the challenges but 3k per run isnt going to cut the mustard.

You get bonus xp for completing star objectives, but only the first time you get that particular objective.

Cyr
04-16-2012, 01:01 PM
Can someone explain to me how the XP works for the Challenges?

I ran a lvl 16 quest on my lvl 18 character, and got like 8k xp. I ran the same quest again and got 3k. I ran it again at lvl 17, and got 4k xp.

I was hoping to go to lvl 19 just off the challenges but 3k per run isnt going to cut the mustard.

How it works is spelled out in a really neat thread by MrCow (do a search for his posts).

In very short form though it works like this...

You get a first time bonus for getting star X (one per star). This is the big XP from the challenges.

You also get a repeat bonus for getting star X (one per star) if you have already gotten that many stars which is less then the first time bonuses.

So if you get 3 stars the first time you do a challenge you get three first time bonuses one for each star. You do it again and 4 star it and you get repeat bonuses for stars 1/2/3 and a first time bonus for star 4. The game does not care what objective you completed to get those stars only the total number of stars.

Deathdefy
04-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Yep what Cyr said.

There's also no bonus in xp for being under-level, but there is an xp penalty for every level you are over. Including being just 1 over I think (unlike quests).

MadFloyd
04-16-2012, 05:13 PM
Including being just 1 over I think (unlike quests).

Reason for this is you can control what level you do the challenge at (unlike quests).

MrkGrismer
04-17-2012, 07:56 AM
Reason for this is you can control what level you do the challenge at (unlike quests).

It is still a 'double-standard' tho.

But many of us have said (repeatedly) that we would prefer it if the challenges had the c/n/h/e settings of normal quests.

MRMechMan
04-17-2012, 08:13 AM
It is still a 'double-standard' tho.

But many of us have said (repeatedly) that we would prefer it if the challenges had the c/n/h/e settings of normal quests.

I would very much dislike this option.

The scaling difficulty effectively gives c/n/h/e difficulties for ANY level party. Party of level 9s? 8 is C, 9 is N, 10 is H, 11 is E. No need to peg each challenge at a certain level like, say, litany is 14/15/16/17 on c/n/h/e.

This makes the challenge quests doable at a huge range of levels, unlike most quests which are only really doable at 1-2 levels...say von3-TRs generally farm it at level 10 (normal) or 11 (hard) after the first elite bravery run. 9 is too early, 12 means no bravery and having to farm it on elite for no penalty.

The scaling challenges means that they are always an xp option.

Overall, the challenges have grown on me.

I like the "zerg or fail" timed aspect of them. Most quests are beatable if done slowly with little risk...often challenges pay off risk takers big time.

I like the boss fights generally. There have been a few times in the mansion where I got a boss with just seconds to spare (2seconds actually). That is exciting!

Few quests provide that kind of open ended challenge. Most epics are pretty easy. Most raids are pretty easy for geared characters, too. But the challenges are totally different and require different strategies. I like that.



But I still hate kobold island, particularly solo.

Tamerlane
04-17-2012, 02:38 PM
the general mechanics of challenges requires that you complete multiple tasks within a very shot time frame. as a result of this small groups and some builds have a very difficult time completing challenges.

small groups cant be in enough locations at the same time to avoid running back and forth and burning time that cant be used to complete goals.

any build that doesn't focus on dps will take longer in each fight leading to less clock to complete goals.

most challenges benefit from splitting up in order to accomplish tasks more time efficiently, as a result, any non-self-healing character will become a liability.

because of this, the best way to approach most challenges is with a group of self-healing dps solo builds. not everyone builds their character that way and challenges are difficult at best for most other players

JOTMON
04-17-2012, 02:54 PM
This topic should prove interesting. :)

As you all know, U12 saw the release of a new type of content - Challenges.

I would like to get your thoughts on these - preferably in a constructive manner. I’m specifically interested in gameplay feedback.

For those who do not enjoy this type of gameplay, can you elaborate on why?

For those of you who do enjoy playing them, what aspects do you enjoy?

General feedback is encouraged, but again, please limit feedback to gameplay and respect other’s opinions. I expect this to be a very polarizing subject.

Thanks in advance.


The challenges as a whole is a different feel, it is more of a zerg zerg mentality because you are on the clock to finish as opposed to the quest dungeon crawl.

I like it as a change to the regular stuff, but it is different from the current quest system. There is no opportunity for exploring optionals, afk for real life interruptions, work out details for specific obsticles figure out puzzles instead of using some third party cheat because you are on the clock or even stop and smash the breakables/pick the collectibles type of questing. There is continuity in the challenges.. no story line or flow.


Have to say I enjoy the ingredient mechanism of the challenges where you collect ingredients upon completion of the run and turn them in to craft loot and epic loot.
I prefer this to the random grind and /roll for loot in the chest hoping someone isnt taking a BTC item to TR, leaves it in the chest for the wrong person because someone dropped group while selecting the person to pass to.
Finding BTC loot that is of no use to the character you switched to because they didnt have a healer in the party while your melee that you switched from still needs the item.

The challenge system offers the ability to gather BTA ingredients and/or craft BTA items, you know with this system it is just a matter of time before you get enough ingredients to craft what you want for the character you want.

I would like to see this crafting system pushed out for all future loot systems. You can also leave the occasional chest drop completed item for the ooh.ahh factor.


My favorite quest chains for playability are the VON's and used to include Gianthold, Twilight Forge and Abbott.

Unfortunately Twilight Forge the loot drops were dropped so low and the pillars were unreliable equalling instant failure forcing a 1 hour rerun of the first part which typically killed the party you had put together to run it. Removing the ability to prep and corridor heal the rest of the party and the low drop rate killed that entire pack (separate part 1 and 2 and you may re-invigorate that chain, changing this to the challanges ingredient system would work too).

Abott changes are frustrating eite with 3x more HP disintigrate avoidance, Tile issues etc... and again the nerf to the loot instead of making better elite loot.. the nerfing of existing loot and then eliting the new crappy loot to the old base loot while making the quest less playable for the general payerbase was a bad move. Turned this chain into another not recommended pack. Uber TR's struggle, at level parties.. forget it..

Reaver changes to do 500 point disintigates and instakill pretty much any at level party member on a failed save, Pumped up Air ellies.. reduced loot drops... I was still waiting for Epic Gianthold .. more Epic Dragons... until I saw some of the crappy loot shown in Lamannia.

are you seeing a theme here.. nerfing named items and lower drop rates=more quest hate....


The ingredient end reward system could also be expanded in existing quests to be increased by the ingenious completion of traps, breaking of breakables, and kill count. this would be a good balance to the invis and run to the end kill the boss and get 100 ingredients, or kill and break everything to the end and get 1000 ingredients.

Get rid of the stupid existing dungeon Alert system it was a bad temporary fix.

Balancing level to quest reward makes sense with the ingredint drop rate adjustment level 20's from zerging level 1 quests for same amount of ingredients.



In summary...
Cannith Challenges .. good enough, it has its place... but I dont want all future quests done this way.
Cannith Ingredient loot crafting system.. Good. push this system out to all future loot systems.
Level 1-25 range = good..sort of.. tough on mixed party ranges..
Nerfing existing loot=bad
Making level 16 quests challenging for Level 20 TR's with epic gear=bad

HalfOrcBeautyQueen
04-23-2012, 08:03 AM
First Impression
Challenges have been released. It's like a kind of Crystal Cove you can play all year round.

Second Impression
OH MY GOD! We get to fight the Yugoloth!?

I really like Challenges.

The PRO's:
1.) The Loot
I really like the flavor & lore of the loot. Specifically the Mournlode weapons and armors. While I would have preferred Holy Burst over Greater Undead Bane, I am still enchanted with my mournlode weapons. Having a sword made out of precious crystal is so romantic. It makes me feel rich. Plus it's amazing to have a martial weapon with light effects, I've been wanting one ever since the Mabar Handwraps came out.
I also like the Calomel weapons for the same lore reasons, but unfortunately there are no options for a Calomel weapon my main would actually use at this time.
The Ring of the Stalker makes me drool. Invisible Stalkers need more love, so it's nice to see them shine. It would be fun if there was a red-named Invisible Stalker lurking in one of the challenges as an optional. Right now the only ones in the Game are in Necro 2 (afaik).

2.) The Enemies
I love fighting the Yugoloth. It's nice to see another Hag in the game outside of the Drooam chain, that graphic is too good to not be used. It's also nice to see another Dragon.
The Bosses in Dr. Rushmore's Mansion really do give the impression that this is a band of outlaws that hang out, steal, and party together. I would only prefer that Dr. Rushmore's Girlfriend was an elf or a drow as opposed to a Succubus, but that's just me. It would add to the illusion that this is a group of players similar to one might find hanging out in stormreach.

3.) Variety
To me, the most exciting aspect of Challenges was that it feels like I get to play a different video game with my DDO Character. I get this feeling the most while playing Dr. Rushmore, and I like it. I put all this work into building my character and it is a nice change of pace to play her in different ways.


and now. . .


The CON's:

1.) Kobold Island
-My least favorite challenges are the ones which take place on Kobold Island. The other three challenges all
make sense, but Kobold Island is a little hodge-podgey. Sometimes the Island is being attacked by the restless dead, other times its attacked by Devils, and there's a "Benevolent Lantern Archon" who helps you by dropping dragonshards. Why? Why is the Archon dropping Dragonshards? Wouldn't she have better things to do? Why is the island only haunted some times but not others? Wouldn't the undead bother the Devils too much and prevent an invasion, and why do the Devils care about mining dragonshards anyway?
-The Disruptor is not fun. He's hard to find, based on chance, and can cause failure without any form of prevention if the player is unlucky. I enjoy employing luck as a factor when designing games, but this time it feels more like punishment.
-The Crate-Buffs are too randomly placed to really be beneficial, and while those buffs are useful in Dr. Rushmore's Mansion, on the Island they are usually so far away from the action that they don't provide any real benefit. It would be better if the Crates contained dragonshards or added time to the clock, then I might go out of my way to find them, as is I just ignore them.

2.) Dungeon Scaling
As others have mentioned, the difficulty scaling present in the challenges is out of whack. The difficulty increases too much when you are in a party, or have a hireling, especially on the higher CR dungeons. This tends to make me think that the Challenges were designed to be solo-ed, but some of the challenges are just not solo-able, at least not to me. Namely the Disruptor, Kobold Chaos, and Picture Portals.

3.) Lack of Variety
Variety was one of the PRO's, but in terms of actual game design there is little variety in the challenges. Lava Caves and Extraplanar Mining are basically identical just with different environments and mobs; and each Challenge Pack is just four variations on the same quest.



In Conclusion

As a whole, I enjoy Challenges. They are a nice change of pace from the main game and are akin to running a Wilderness Area for exp and loot. They provide nice named treasure that is worth obtaining, and other turn ins which are desirable (exp and renown potions, epic tokens). It is interesting and fun to fight enemies we don't normally get to see, but the repetitive mechanics of some of the challenges make them uninteresting fairly quickly.

Please, no more mining kobolds in the future - But more weapons and armors with interesting effects!

Fromthelog
04-26-2012, 07:10 PM
Not going to knock them. They seem well done and many people enjoy them. I've had no positive experience in there though. Again, just me and I'm not saying they're bad.
I'm unhappy that unlocking the artificer is tied to it.

ThePrincipal
05-02-2012, 06:34 PM
I like it. I usually solo the lvl 16-18 challenges for both xp, ingreds, and also... gasp... the challenge.

The only epic items I have are from the events and challenges. I prefer this style of crafting as well - simple ingrediants with a turn in box. I gave up on my advanced degree in shroudology a long time ago.

KanedaEX
05-02-2012, 06:44 PM
Challenges are kinda fun, but the cost is right now prohibitive.
Second main issue, the mechanics real punish everyone if one of the pieces is unskilled, thats not really great for pugs

Phemt81
05-02-2012, 06:51 PM
I really like Challenges.

The PRO's:
The Loot
Variety

The CON's:
Kobold Island
Dungeon Scaling
Lack of Variety

This^

Best challenge: Dr. rushmore moving target
Worst: Kobold island (all three)

Suggestions: tune down A LOT dungeon scaling, or get totally rid of party difficulty scaling. You always need to run them at 3-4 levels under yours (on a TR...). Some challenges like kobold island are just insanely unbalanced, frustrating and no no fun, seriously do not waste such nice ideas thrown here and there.

Note: need to visit the lava challenges yet.

Barium
05-03-2012, 10:00 AM
I'm curious if the OLD epic ward was intentional for these challenges? Thought that stuff was disabled long ago. On mobs that are 'phantasmal' and immune to holds etc already, the epic ward is really over the top. Is this WAI?

P.S.- Suggestion: Increase the threshhold slightly on the Dungeon Alert. Spawning/Respawning monsters at the rate of something like picture portals adding in Yellow, Orange, and even Red dungeon alert is a bit stiff in a quest that includes a strict time limit as well as monsters with seriously bloated HP.

Habreno
05-03-2012, 02:20 PM
I'm curious if the OLD epic ward was intentional for these challenges? Thought that stuff was disabled long ago. On mobs that are 'phantasmal' and immune to holds etc already, the epic ward is really over the top. Is this WAI?

Believe that Epic Ward was indeed WAI, both in challenges and Cove.



In as far as my comments.


Interesting, but for the wrong reasons.

1) Recently, I've noticed a LOT of good AC pieces of gear coming from non-quests. Cove Plate ties for best AC armor, Bracers of Wind get Dodge, air guard, blurry, and can get more Dodge crafted on. Epic Swashbuckler is fairly nice for shield, more of a space-saving one, consolidating Insight +4 and Shield AC on one piece (with a very nice secondary +4 insight to saves), but that's all from non quests. Seriously, why is some of the best gear for a particular task out of a non-quest?

2) Epic Tokens. OP. To be able to just farm a couple hours and slot a 30-token augment is just wrong. EDA is 2 tokens in 30 minutes, on a good run. That's a token every 15 minutes, BUT, has a timer of 16 HOURS. Challenges have no timer, and some even beat the token every 15 minutes EDA has.

danzig138
05-26-2012, 12:18 PM
I enjoy CC when it's around, for a while. Then I get really, really tired of the grind, and quit bothering. Same thing for the challenges. Same thing for any quest that I have to run over and over and over and over and over for ingredients. But I won't suggest getting rid of the grind, because I guess that's just not how things work in MMOs.

I would suggest reducing the amounts you need by 50%. Without changing the amount you can get in a run BTW. You do that, and I guarantee I'll run more challenges on more characters in order to build more cool things. But I play the game to have fun and interact with cool people. The long grind is not fun, and is not a good use of my play time.

Cut the time I have to grind in half, I'll run it more, build more, and TR more (which in my case means money since I"m currently not willing to work at grinding for a heart).

MRMechMan
05-26-2012, 12:30 PM
Seriously, why is some of the best gear for a particular task out of a non-quest?

Why is that a problem?



2) Epic Tokens. OP. To be able to just farm a couple hours and slot a 30-token augment is just wrong.

Why is that wrong?