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C-Dog
01-06-2012, 09:05 PM
Okay, simple newbie question, but one that's important to understand, so I want to get it right. (And the wording of some of the answers I've found... well, let's say it's open to interpretation...)


In order for a Bard to qualify for Songs, only Ranks in the Perform skill are counted. 1 Rank +20 in misc. bonuses = 1 Rank, no songs allowed. Got that much.

So when do bonuses help? Spell Pen? Enchanting/etc. Song DC? Any other time?

Is there any time (other than as requisite for Songs) that only Ranks matter?

Does Charisma factor in there somewhere? (Edit: I know that to cast any spell, a Bard needs Charisma = {10 + Spell Level}. Sim for any Caster.)

Lastly (depending on answers to some of the above), how big a bonus is needed for high-level content?

As always, thx in advance!

voodoogroves
01-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Okay, simple newbie question, but one that's important to understand, so I want to get it right. (And the wording of some of the answers I've found... well, let's say it's open to interpretation...)


In order for a Bard to qualify for Songs, only Ranks in the Perform skill are counted. 1 Rank +20 in misc. bonuses = 1 Rank, no songs allowed. Got that much.

So when do bonuses help? Spell Pen? Enchanting/etc. Song DC? Any other time?

Is there any time (other than as requisite for Songs) that only Ranks matter?

Does Charisma factor in there somewhere?

Lastly (depending on answers to some of the above), how big a bonus is needed for high-level content?

As always, thx in advance!

The bard songs that cause a save typically do so against your perform skill as the DC.

You know how wizards look for a DC 40 on their mass hold or fascinate? Your bard song of fascinate will have a DC based on your perform check. You can easily get a very, very, very successful perform DC.


This only really affects fascinate and suggestion plus the derivatives - music of the makers, dead and the virtuoso enthrallment and song of capering.


Generally speaking, if you can get your DC up past the 50s, you'll be able to affect most mobs (that can be affected) unless they roll a 20 on their save.

EDIT: You still want as high as you can get.

Zirun
01-06-2012, 09:29 PM
So when do bonuses help? Spell Pen? Enchanting/etc. Song DC? Any other time?

DCs for Perfom-based CC spells (Fascinate, Enthrall, etc.) are 1d20 + Perform (which includes all bonuses).


Is there any time (other than as requisite for Songs) that only Ranks matter?

Not that I'm aware of.


Does Charisma factor in there somewhere?

CHA mod is a bonus to the Perform skill, like the various stats are for any other skill.


Lastly (depending on answers to some of the above), how big a bonus is needed for high-level content?

Well, DCs for songs work like DCs for any spell. The difference is that it's 1d20 + Perform skill for a song vs. 10 + spell level + bonuses for a spell. Obviously it's a lot easier to raise the former. You can get workable to virtually unresistable DCs on your songs just by putting ranks into Perform (which you'll want to do to unlock songs, and Bards get a lot of skill points anyways) and getting any half-decent skill boost items. Hell, you might not even need the items, there's just so many more ways to boost a skill than there are a spell DC.

DavionFuxa
01-06-2012, 09:30 PM
Generally, you only need ranks to get and play your songs. Past that, you start to look more at your total mod instead.

Your Total Mod of course consists of your trained Perform, Plus your Charisma Mod, Plus any gears, buffs, or whatnot that raises your perform skill or Charisma based skills; so Charisma factors in to your total mod.

When you use your songs offensively - such as for Fascinate or Suggestion, that is when your Total Mod in Perform comes into play. The Higher The Mod, the higher your likelihood of being successful.

At high level content you can never have too much Perform - the better your songs, the harder they are to resist. Though note that you can get by with a lower score as well and this is why a Warchanter and Spellsinger are still viable with Fascinate.

C-Dog
01-06-2012, 09:46 PM
Cool, thx for speedy replies!


...You can get workable to virtually unresistable DCs on your songs just by putting ranks into Perform ... and getting any half-decent skill boost items. Hell, you might not even need the items, there's just so many more ways to boost a skill than there are a spell DC.Full 23 Ranks in Perform, check. (That was a lock, but always good to get confirmed.)

So, when looking at Enhancements, the Skill:Improved Perform is probably not necessary, as the same result can be achieved via items? E Pts can be better spent elsewhere? (Or, maybe respec'd later for higher level content?)

Tuney
01-06-2012, 09:46 PM
I wish Suggestion (Both) and Song of Freedom used Perform. Song of Freedom just uses bard level while Suggestion uses 10 + CHA mod + (Bard level/2)... at least it did last time I checked.

AP spent into Perform should only be because you needed to quailify for Virtioso.

JollySwagMan
01-06-2012, 10:01 PM
Note that there is no spell pen check with bard songs, so even if a build doesn't have many Bard levels, it can still boast an impressive Fascinate DC!

Zirun
01-06-2012, 10:01 PM
So, when looking at Enhancements, the Skill:Improved Perform is probably not necessary, as the same result can be achieved via items? E Pts can be better spent elsewhere? (Or, maybe respec'd later for higher level content?)

Well, 1d20 + 23 ranks + 15 item + 4 Greater Heroism + 5 Charisma (20 Charisma is something attainable in pretty much any build with any number of Bard levels) = 48-67 DC. So just max ranks plus some basic, easy to get boosts is enough to make your songs almost unresistable anywhere monsters aren't immune. Throw in higher Charisma, luck bonuses, anything your PrE gives you, enhancement bonuses, a GS skills item...

Yeah, spending action points on Improved Perform is far from necessary.

C-Dog
01-06-2012, 10:09 PM
Roger that. (May do it at very first levels to help song DC, and then respec. Starting DC is only d20+8 - far from a lock.)

Thanks! <runs off to Char Planner...>

Jaid314
01-06-2012, 10:23 PM
total perform mod (not ranks) also determines your chance to proc bonus spell points when singing if you're a spellsinger II.

katz
01-06-2012, 10:44 PM
Note that there is no spell pen check with bard songs, so even if a build doesn't have many Bard levels, it can still boast an impressive Fascinate DC!


too true. i had 4 shots of an epic capable fascinate on Pointless' sorcerer (18 sorc/2 bard) life. :D lol