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djl
01-03-2012, 01:35 PM
Is it really worth taking the full enhancement line for Runearms? In total, that eats up 16 points, a considerable chunk of the allotted 80, for one thing. And given how difficult it is to properly aim runearms, I have to wonder if I wouldn't be better off taking other things, such as Improved Search/Disable and more ranks of the Improved Repair/Reconstruct line. What is the general consensus on this?

AZgreentea
01-03-2012, 01:39 PM
When I asked the same question soon after Artie was released the answer I got was that the higher tiers of Rune Arm Use and Overcharge (especially Overcharge) were more than worth the AP. If that has changed in an update or two, I dont know, as I still havent unlocked Artie. (I had asked because I thought it would be faster, and I would need to know).

MsEricka
01-03-2012, 01:43 PM
Improved search and disable are not really worth it. And for repair you don't really need more than two or three ranks.

For enhancements you might want to just go with 6/1/1 for both force and electric so you can swap between Toven's Hammer and Lucid Dreams and keep damage high. Of course this would also affect your blade barriers as well.

djl
01-03-2012, 01:46 PM
Improved search and disable are not really worth it. And for repair you don't really need more than two or three ranks.

For enhancements you might want to just go with 6/1/1 for both force and electric so you can swap between Toven's Hammer and Lucid Dreams and keep damage high. Of course this would also affect your blade barriers as well.

Do those enhancements affect your runearm imbue damage too, or just the "charge and fire" damage?

Jaid314
01-03-2012, 01:49 PM
improved search/disable are almost worthless enhancements. you should have lots.

improved repair (assuming you mean the skill) is actually even less useful than search/disable, because there's a very very tiny chance that some day you'll have like 10 death penalties running and will need the bonus to search disable, but there is basically zero chance for that happening with improved repair.

better reconstruct sounds nice, but let's stop and think about this for a minute.

reconstruct will give you back 150 hit points. if you have a superior potency item, 225, if you have a mending clicky active, 262.

if you're *really* that worried about it, you can put a single AP in to get an extra 20%, but overall... seriously? how often are you letting yourself get that low in health before throwing a reconstruct that you need more than 262 hit points at a time?

even a scroll from a decently-specced artificer will hit for over 200 hit points. *maybe* if you are relying on construct essence feat, but even then, at most 1 point into reconstruct and anything more is basically just wasteful.

rune arms are a major source of DPS. for a properly specced artificer (ie points in force damage, full enhancements) you're looking at something close to 300+ DPS against a single target. that's as much as many melees will do entirely, especially against some bosses (like abbot) and you get to add that on top of your repeater damage. those AP spent on being good with a rune arm will actually let you qualify for a DPS slot in raids on their own, even if you didn't have all your buffs and even if your repeater (or other weapon, whatever you use) deals zero damage.

LOOON375
01-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Is it really worth taking the full enhancement line for Runearms?Since it's so easy and convenient to reset your enhancements, try it out and reset if it doesn't work for you.

Personally, I only use my rune arms for the increased DPS to my Xbows. Charging, aiming, and shooting them are a PITA. Not worth it to me personally.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 02:10 PM
Improved search and disable are not really worth it. And for repair you don't really need more than two or three ranks.

For enhancements you might want to just go with 6/1/1 for both force and electric so you can swap between Toven's Hammer and Lucid Dreams and keep damage high. Of course this would also affect your blade barriers as well.

How about for Arti's w/o Toven's? I can't see a Rune Arm that I would use over Lucid Dreams for single-target other than Lucid. If you allow that you're going to want at least 7/1/1 for blade barrier/tactical detonation then the choice is 7/6/6 for force with Lucid or 7/1/1 for your casting and 7/1/1 for your rune arm line. Even with Glorious Obscenity being better single-target damage if the mob doesn't have acid resistance you still have to give up the 7/6/6 on your rune arm line if you're still going to max out your force line for casting purposes. No time to do the math but I can't see Glorious Obscenity coming out ahead at 7/1/1 versus Lucid w/ 7/6/6. Animus is a blast so it does less single-target damage. Tira's can't be modified with enhancements.

Even with Toven's you're still looking at giving up the 7/6/6 for both rune arm and casting but Toven's makes that decision more interesting (gives a huge boost to your xbow damage). But for people without Toven's but with Lucid Dreams I can't see anything but 7/6/6 if you're looking for max ranged damage. Slot Lucid w/ Major Kinetic Lore (assuming you can craft it) and make sure to find a slot for greater evocation focus as well and you're all set. The other thing I like about Lucid over Toven's is that Arti's can often be called on to scroll heal. For those times you're scroll-healing you can still be doing dps with your rune arm. 7/6/6 + Lucid maximizes your dps in that situation any time the mob is weak against force. 7/1/1 + any other Rune Arm (Lucid included) does not. But again, Torven's + 7/1/1 vs Lucid + 7/6/6 comes down more to personal preference, play style, and other gear than one being better than the other. The other rune arms though? Not sure if I can see an argument supporting 7/1/1 + another rune arm if you're looking to max out your ranged dps.

Maxallu
01-03-2012, 02:14 PM
Since it's so easy and convenient to reset your enhancements, try it out and reset if it doesn't work for you.

Personally, I only use my rune arms for the increased DPS to my Xbows. Charging, aiming, and shooting them are a PITA. Not worth it to me personally.


Then you are doing it wrong and providing lousy dps and a drain on the party. You should be using your rune arm constantly. It is not hard. Your rune arm is more than half your dps if done right.

djl
01-03-2012, 02:18 PM
How about for Arti's w/o Toven's? I can't see a Rune Arm that I would use over Lucid Dreams for single-target other than Lucid. If you allow that you're going to want at least 7/1/1 for blade barrier/tactical detonation then the choice is 7/6/6 for force with Lucid or 7/1/1 for your casting and 7/1/1 for your rune arm line. Even with Glorious Obscenity being better single-target damage if the mob doesn't have acid resistance you still have to give up the 7/6/6 on your rune arm line if you're still going to max out your force line for casting purposes. No time to do the math but I can't see Glorious Obscenity coming out ahead at 7/1/1 versus Lucid w/ 7/6/6. Animus is a blast so it does less single-target damage. Tira's can't be modified with enhancements.

Even with Toven's you're still looking at giving up the 7/6/6 for both rune arm and casting but Toven's makes that decision more interesting (gives a huge boost to your xbow damage). But for people without Toven's but with Lucid Dreams I can't see anything but 7/6/6 if you're looking for max ranged damage. Slot Lucid w/ Major Kinetic Lore (assuming you can craft it) and make sure to find a slot for greater evocation focus as well and you're all set. The other thing I like about Lucid over Toven's is that Arti's can often be called on to scroll heal. For those times you're scroll-healing you can still be doing dps with your rune arm. 7/6/6 + Lucid maximizes your dps in that situation any time the mob is weak against force. 7/1/1 + any other Rune Arm (Lucid included) does not. But again, Torven's + 7/1/1 vs Lucid + 7/6/6 comes down more to personal preference, play style, and other gear than one being better than the other. The other rune arms though? Not sure if I can see an argument supporting 7/1/1 + another rune arm if you're looking to max out your ranged dps.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, lol. 7/1/1 and 7/6/6?

I was also hoping to use Toven's in the end game, because when fully repaired it gives the same effect as a Torc.

LOOON375
01-03-2012, 02:24 PM
Then you are doing it wrong Really? So you're already an expert on how arty's should be used. Every possible way?

It's pretty fricken sweet when you take the time to aim, charge, and fire a runearm only for it to shoot straight up in the air, missing the target.

No where did I say I didn't use it AT ALL. I said I prefer to not use it because it's a PITA.

I fit it in whenever I can IF the situation dictates.

djl
01-03-2012, 02:32 PM
Okay, so if I focus on Lucid Dreams and take the full force line 7/6/6, that leaves only 2 points left, when I still need another 18 for all of the runearm enhancements. =\

Do you want me to list my current planned enhancements to get a better idea of how to tweak it?

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 02:32 PM
those AP spent on being good with a rune arm will actually let you qualify for a DPS slot in raids on their own, even if you didn't have all your buffs and even if your repeater (or other weapon, whatever you use) deals zero damage.

Absolutely. I've gone 4 different ways on my capped arti - even split 7/1/1 fire (for the aoe nukes) and force, 7/1/1 in force and 1/1/1 on all others in case I want to do some acid damage, cold damage, etc, 7/1/1 force and the rest spent in non-spell damage areas (plenty to spend stuff on for a human arti) and 7/6/6 force. By far I've found the 7/6/6 the most effective. I have max damage on my bb's for soloing things, max damage on my rune arm versus any build that goes 7/1/1 for any rune arm, and still hit the highlights for the non-spell damage stuff. I do miss the flexibility but for me at least it's been the most effective and yes, it does qualify you as dps...heck, you qualify as light dps when you're scroll healing and the only dps comes from the rune arm and the odd nuke between scroll cd's.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 02:33 PM
Okay, so if I focus on Lucid Dreams and take the full force line 7/6/6, that leaves only 2 points left, when I still need another 18 for all of the runearm enhancements. =\

Do you want me to list my current planned enhancements to get a better idea of how to tweak it?

Let me look up my build for you real quick and post my enhancements I'm using.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 02:48 PM
Ok, here's what I did on my human. If you happen to end up on an odd number for int then you can free up 6ap's for something else. On a human I'd probably go 1/1/1 in fire, 1/0/0 in repair, and then spend the last 2 points in whatever struck your fancy (1/0/0 in lightning and acid perhaps?). Or you could use those last 6 points to buff up your versatility boost. Again, whatever fits your play style. I realize we've got 35ap's dedicated to either force damage (19) or rune arm (16) but they're honestly worth it. They're that good.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use I
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use II
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use III
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use IV
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge I
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge II
Enhancement: Arcane Empowerment
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Intelligence I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device III
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device IV
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics I
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics II
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics III
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics IV
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics V
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics VI
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Force Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Force Manipulation V
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence III
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery IV

djl
01-03-2012, 02:52 PM
I'm a warforged :L

So I need 6 points for Healer Friend 1 and 2 enhancements and I'd also like to use 6 on Constitution enhancements, although maybe an extra two con isn't that significant on an arty.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 03:01 PM
I need to work it up anyways for the final life on my wizard so let me see what I'd do based on my philosophy on a Warforged.

Maxallu
01-03-2012, 03:15 PM
No where did I say I didn't use it AT ALL. I said I prefer to not use it because it's a PITA.

I fit it in whenever I can IF the situation dictates.

I'm going to go ahead and quote you twice because you apparently forgot what you just typed or you are liar. Here I go, "Personally, I only use my rune arms for the increased DPS to my xbows."

Lol, yes that is doing it wrong, and yes I do know how to play them.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 03:27 PM
Ok, here's what I worked up for my future WF'd. There's a lot of if/then involved.

If you end up with an odd int by taking the Arti Int III then you can just go II and free up 6 ap.

Con is a bit tougher. I built it for NO bonus con. That said, let's examine our choices:
Odd Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = +20 total hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Even Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = 0hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +10 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Now my posted build assumes a +2 con tome and no exceptional con bonuses. That would put you at an even number. We're starved for AP and I can't see spending 5ap's for 10hp's nor can I see spending 9ap for 30hp on a ranged/casting toon. Since we started with 16con, added an even tome, have a +6 con item and no other con bonuses we're ending on an even number. There's simply no room for the extra hp's here. If I had ended on an odd number I would have found a way to shake out some ap's. If we get lucky and get to steal it from int then I'd add 1 point to repair and the other 5 to con/hp and call it a day.

If not, then we have some tough decisions to make but I'd drop as much from my UMD as I could get away with given my gear and then start scaling back the Kinetic Crit lines. Wouldn't be happy about it but there's nowhere else I'd be willing to sacrifice. I would never drop WSIV on a capstoned Arti - why take the best wand/scroll healer in the game and water them down? While I don't agree with Healer's Friend II (4ap for 5% is just too expensive) I think Healer's Friend I should be a locked in requirement for any WF'd that ever groups at all. And since class benefits can't wipe out arcane spell failure on scrolls you pretty much have to spend the 1ap on Inscribed Armor lest you drive yourself nuts when using arcane scrolls.

LOOON375
01-03-2012, 03:46 PM
I'm going to go ahead and quote you twice because you apparently forgot what you just typed or you are liar. Here I go, "Personally, I only use my rune arms for the increased DPS to my xbows."

Lol, yes that is doing it wrong, and yes I do know how to play them.
You must be trolling to start calling people a liar.

Take what I wrote however you want.

Darkrok
01-03-2012, 03:56 PM
Also, on the rune arm firing/no rune arm firing question I find that I rarely use the rune arm solo on trash. It's far easier to gather up a bunch of mobs and blade barrier kite while jumping backward with the repeater. Rune arm aiming, keypresses, and most importantly the speed hit makes that difficult.

In a group it depends on how fast we're moving. If it's a good zerg group then it probably makes more sense to keep up with the group rather than waiting on charging and then to charge the rune arm once you're in place, taking out any static mobs like archers/casters while the other casters in your group gather the melee mobs to aoe them down. If the group is moving slow enough for you to keep up and you have a high-powered single-target rune arm (like Lucid Dreams) then I'd definitely keep it auto-charging. In a good group you can use it to quickly knock out 1 or 2 mobs out of each group. In a group that's not so good or is doing something challenging I like to reserve it as an emergency button to drop a dangerous caster by a large chunk of health.

Finally, in raid boss-beater situations (Shroud p4/5 for example) you'd be crazy not to keep the rune arm firing every cooldown.

So while I agree that in certain situations the rune arm can be more of a hindrance than an asset those situations aren't very prevalent beyond soloing things that can be bb'd easily.

djl
01-03-2012, 04:15 PM
Ok, here's what I worked up for my future WF'd. There's a lot of if/then involved.

If you end up with an odd int by taking the Arti Int III then you can just go II and free up 6 ap.

Con is a bit tougher. I built it for NO bonus con. That said, let's examine our choices:
Odd Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = +20 total hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Even Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = 0hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +10 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Now my posted build assumes a +2 con tome and no exceptional con bonuses. That would put you at an even number. We're starved for AP and I can't see spending 5ap's for 10hp's nor can I see spending 9ap for 30hp on a ranged/casting toon. Since we started with 16con, added an even tome, have a +6 con item and no other con bonuses we're ending on an even number. There's simply no room for the extra hp's here. If I had ended on an odd number I would have found a way to shake out some ap's. If we get lucky and get to steal it from int then I'd add 1 point to repair and the other 5 to con/hp and call it a day.

If not, then we have some tough decisions to make but I'd drop as much from my UMD as I could get away with given my gear and then start scaling back the Kinetic Crit lines. Wouldn't be happy about it but there's nowhere else I'd be willing to sacrifice. I would never drop WSIV on a capstoned Arti - why take the best wand/scroll healer in the game and water them down? While I don't agree with Healer's Friend II (4ap for 5% is just too expensive) I think Healer's Friend I should be a locked in requirement for any WF'd that ever groups at all. And since class benefits can't wipe out arcane spell failure on scrolls you pretty much have to spend the 1ap on Inscribed Armor lest you drive yourself nuts when using arcane scrolls.

I will be using a +3 con tome and an exceptional con +1 tod ring when I can get it as well as a +3 int tome with slotting exceptional int +1 on a colorless slot, so I don't need to take either of the con enhancements nor the +3 int enhancement, really. I do plan to get Racial Toughness I and II though. 3 points for 20 HP seems like a worthy trade-off. So lets see if I can retool my plan like that. Also, with the Battle Engineer I enhancement it lowers my arcane failure to 5%, if I am reading everything correctly. I didn't take any armor feats, so my base failure should be 15%, and the prestige gives -10% for a total of 5%. That isn't too bad right? Is it still worth taking Inscribed Armor?

I see nobody is recommending Artificer Skill Boost, either.

djl
01-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)


Level 20 (Artificer)
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage II
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use I
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use II
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use III
Enhancement: Artificer Improved Rune Arm Use IV
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge I
Enhancement: Artificer Rune Arm Overcharge II
Enhancement: Arcane Empowerment
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device III
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device IV
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting II
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting III
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting IV
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting V
Enhancement: Kinetic Spellcasting VI
Enhancement: Reconstructive Spellcasting I
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics I
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics II
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics III
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics IV
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics V
Enhancement: Deadly Kinetics VI
Enhancement: Mighty Reconstruction I
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Force Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Force Manipulation V
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VI
Enhancement: Force Manipulation VII
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Enhancement: Artificer Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I




Here's what I've got. I had two points left over, so I took Warforged Con I so that I could just look for an exceptional int +1 ring and not have to use tokens to slot it.

Jendrak
01-03-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm a warforged :L

So I need 6 points for Healer Friend 1 and 2 enhancements and I'd also like to use 6 on Constitution enhancements, although maybe an extra two con isn't that significant on an arty.

I can see you already fixed it some with your above build but wanted to say this anyway.

Why in the hell would you waste AP in healers friend? If you have quicken + reconstruct your pretty much unkillable as long as you have blue bar and with the self suffiency nobody is gonna care how hard you are to heal.

djl
01-03-2012, 09:31 PM
I can see you already fixed it some with your above build but wanted to say this anyway.

Why in the hell would you waste AP in healers friend? If you have quicken + reconstruct your pretty much unkillable as long as you have blue bar and with the self suffiency nobody is gonna care how hard you are to heal.

Well, Healers Friend I is only 2 AP, so where would you recommend I use it instead? Other than that, do you think my new build is good?

Jendrak
01-03-2012, 11:29 PM
Well, Healers Friend I is only 2 AP, so where would you recommend I use it instead? Other than that, do you think my new build is good?

Well just looking at Enhancments I would say put those 2 points into your reconstruction as the extra 10% on repairs is gonna benefit you more. Other than that it looks fine to me.

Personally I also think the overcharge Enhancments are over rated only because they cost 6 ap for full spec and it only really benefits the first shot being a few (maybe 2) faster to full charge. I would also look at dropping those in lew of the sp Enhancments for added sp or the extra toughness Enhancments but that's just me.

Calebro
01-04-2012, 12:00 AM
Personally I also think the overcharge Enhancments are over rated only because they cost 6 ap for full spec and it only really benefits the first shot being a few (maybe 2) faster to full charge.

Completely agree.

Deathdefy
01-04-2012, 12:14 AM
If you're standing dead-still or in a total cakewalk of a fight, I agree the overcharge enhancements are rubbish, but in more dynamic fights they're invaluable.

With no enhancements, you're dead still for charges 2 -> 5 and can only reposition during the cooldown; then you're forced to plant in your new location for 4 runes of charging worth. This often becomes a choice between sacrificing dps by firing at a sub-optimal tier or getting pummelled to death.

With overcharge 2, you get a real gap between forced 'stand-still and charge' periods, so you can jump-shoot at hard to reach targets, throw multiple non-overlapping Blade Barriers, and generalize minimize your time being beaten by whatever's chasing you while maintaining max rune arms dps.

The proportion of time you get to be moving vs sitting still changes meaningfully with these enhancements, and makes playing an artificer at cap not only more effective, but much more fun.

I would give up Arti Int III long before I dropped the Overcharges.

Jendrak
01-04-2012, 12:40 AM
If you're standing dead-still or in a total cakewalk of a fight, I agree the overcharge enhancements are rubbish, but in more dynamic fights they're invaluable.

With no enhancements, you're dead still for charges 2 -> 5 and can only reposition during the cooldown; then you're forced to plant in your new location for 4 runes of charging worth. This often becomes a choice between sacrificing dps by firing at a sub-optimal tier or getting pummelled to death.

With overcharge 2, you get a real gap between forced 'stand-still and charge' periods, so you can jump-shoot at hard to reach targets, throw multiple non-overlapping Blade Barriers, and generalize minimize your time being beaten by whatever's chasing you while maintaining max rune arms dps.

The proportion of time you get to be moving vs sitting still changes meaningfully with these enhancements, and makes playing an artificer at cap not only more effective, but much more fun.

I would give up Arti Int III long before I dropped the Overcharges.


And if they werent a 2,4 scale I would completly agree. However, given that the majority of your time your either a) gonna drop something long before it gets to you or b) have someone else pulling aggro ,tank or dog, take your pick. In either case remaining stationary to build a charge isnt a huge deal. I soloed my arti up to about the 17-18 range with very few exceptions and in all those instance very very rarely did I find myself in a situation where this wasnt the case.

Maxallu
01-04-2012, 12:45 AM
Why are you spending 6 ap on healers friend? You are a WF arty, reconstruct yourself and scroll recon on yourself. You don't need any divine assistance. You are not a from line melee either. You should rarely die, you should lead kill counts most of the time, your. Lads barrier will be best in game, your ranged dps with xbow and rune arm will be top notch and you will have zero trouble repairing yourself. You dont need any silly heals.

Deathdefy
01-04-2012, 12:50 AM
I think I agree with you Jendrak re: it being a sub-optimal levelling enhancement chain, though I'll still grab it out of habit if I'm honest.

For epics, getting to the discoball / putting a new mob between you and an IPS target / being able to fire off a 5 charge shot many times at all in a fight if you're near-constantly moving knowing you'll never be able to stand still long enough to charge more than an orb or two, etc make it much more valuable. I'm thinking like Bloodplate in eChrono, even Razorarm; all the challenges. Most epic 6 man quests have enough moving about to justify it too assuming your arcane isn't just wailing everything.

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 02:43 AM
I think I agree with you Jendrak re: it being a sub-optimal levelling enhancement chain, though I'll still grab it out of habit if I'm honest.

For epics, getting to the discoball / putting a new mob between you and an IPS target / being able to fire off a 5 charge shot many times at all in a fight if you're near-constantly moving knowing you'll never be able to stand still long enough to charge more than an orb or two, etc make it much more valuable. I'm thinking like Bloodplate in eChrono, even Razorarm; all the challenges. Most epic 6 man quests have enough moving about to justify it too assuming your arcane isn't just wailing everything.

Agree. If you primarily solo I'd agree it's not worth it. But when you're in a 6-man group you're going to be moving quite a bit. Having 3 charges already built up when you stop makes it easier to burn down those casters when you park yourself.

djl
01-04-2012, 10:48 AM
I guess I'll take it and then see how I like it. :-)

Forzah
01-04-2012, 12:38 PM
Ok, here's what I worked up for my future WF'd. There's a lot of if/then involved.

If you end up with an odd int by taking the Arti Int III then you can just go II and free up 6 ap.

Con is a bit tougher. I built it for NO bonus con. That said, let's examine our choices:
Odd Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = +20 total hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Even Con:
0ap = +0hp
2 total ap = 0hp (WF Con I)
5 total ap = +10 total hp (WF Con I + Racial Toughness III)
9 total ap = +30 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness III)
13 total ap = +40 total hp (WF Con II + Racial Toughness IV)

Now my posted build assumes a +2 con tome and no exceptional con bonuses. That would put you at an even number. We're starved for AP and I can't see spending 5ap's for 10hp's nor can I see spending 9ap for 30hp on a ranged/casting toon. Since we started with 16con, added an even tome, have a +6 con item and no other con bonuses we're ending on an even number. There's simply no room for the extra hp's here. If I had ended on an odd number I would have found a way to shake out some ap's. If we get lucky and get to steal it from int then I'd add 1 point to repair and the other 5 to con/hp and call it a day.

If not, then we have some tough decisions to make but I'd drop as much from my UMD as I could get away with given my gear and then start scaling back the Kinetic Crit lines. Wouldn't be happy about it but there's nowhere else I'd be willing to sacrifice. I would never drop WSIV on a capstoned Arti - why take the best wand/scroll healer in the game and water them down? While I don't agree with Healer's Friend II (4ap for 5% is just too expensive) I think Healer's Friend I should be a locked in requirement for any WF'd that ever groups at all. And since class benefits can't wipe out arcane spell failure on scrolls you pretty much have to spend the 1ap on Inscribed Armor lest you drive yourself nuts when using arcane scrolls.

If you only take three ranks of toughness, you free up 4 AP. Who on earth spends 4 AP on 10 hp anyway?

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 01:22 PM
If you only take three ranks of toughness, you free up 4 AP. Who on earth spends 4 AP on 10 hp anyway?

Not me! That's the point of that chart - to show the diminishing returns for people with an odd and with an even ending con score. I tend to spend 3ap's on Racial Toughness + WF Con if my con ends up even and 8 total points if it ends odd. I just wanted people to see what they were getting for those points in both scenarios.

As for the HF I issue I can't see not taking it. Yes, we're tight on AP but for 2ap we're getting 30% more divine healing. There are enough situations where there are mass heals flowing that it's worth it just for that. I wouldn't fault a ranged/casting warforged that chose to drop it but it's worth it to me.

HunterjWizzard
01-04-2012, 01:46 PM
Thanks for clearing that up! It's been very helpful. I now know what direction I need to take.

Bardgellor
01-04-2012, 01:58 PM
Question for some of the original responders: is 7/6/6 a significant enough improvement over 7/1/1 to justify 10 extra 10AP (more than doubling the cost)? The improved crit lines seem soooo inefficient based on % increase in damage compared to the base 5% per AP you get for base damage. Has anyone worked out the math on this to determine the actual benefit if you stack both increased crit chance and increased crit multiplier? My calculations show an 20.25% damage increase (9% * (125% extra damage +50% extra from lore item) + 9% * 50% from lore item) from the combination of both crit lines (so 12AP). Less than 2% per AP doesn't seem worth it.

kendo
01-04-2012, 02:09 PM
good discussion and some great information to digest, as I had the same questions as the original poster.

however, most of this appears to be focused on a couple of rune arms you would be using at cap. what would people suggest on the way up? do you focus more on the general enhancements, like increasing intel, boosting wand and scroll skills, etc. or do you keep resetting your enhancements to boost the damage line for the rune arm you tend to use most at a given level?

djl
01-04-2012, 02:41 PM
good discussion and some great information to digest, as I had the same questions as the original poster.

however, most of this appears to be focused on a couple of rune arms you would be using at cap. what would people suggest on the way up? do you focus more on the general enhancements, like increasing intel, boosting wand and scroll skills, etc. or do you keep resetting your enhancements to boost the damage line for the rune arm you tend to use most at a given level?

The Pea Shooter is an incredible runearm for low levels because it has 2-8 acid damage, which is effective in most situations early in the game, and it has Superior Potency 3 so all your spells at that level get 50% extra damage. This combined with Moderate/Superior Repairs effectively makes you invincible except against OHKOs like traps. At mid-levels, the Tor runearms like Arcing Sky are good too. The biggest equipment problem I am having right now is finding a good bow for mid levels. There's really nothing out there that is good enough for elite mid-level content, not until I am able to get a lit2 repeater. But that requires actually running shroud because I have to have the shards, so yeah. It's a dilemma. People recommend a paralyzing repeater, but finding one of those is extremely difficult.

As far as enhancements early, just do whatever you like, at least that is what I'm doing. Be sure to get the prereqs for Battle Engineer because the bonuses you get from that are tremendous at level 6 (like +2 enhancement bonus to all weapons), and other than that take Constitution/Intelligence enhancements as you need them. It's difficult to have a concrete plan for lower level enhancements because gear is so unpredictable at those levels.

Maxallu
01-04-2012, 02:48 PM
Max run arm enhancements including overcharge. Max force lines. Take some con and toughness. Take battle engineer. Having charges up to tier three while moving is fantastic. Use rune arm constantly for max damage. Force line also helps blade barrier, tactical detonation and prismatic strike. Take whatever else you want, I took some umd for no fail umdung.

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 03:03 PM
Question for some of the original responders: is 7/6/6 a significant enough improvement over 7/1/1 to justify 10 extra 10AP (more than doubling the cost)? The improved crit lines seem soooo inefficient based on % increase in damage compared to the base 5% per AP you get for base damage. Has anyone worked out the math on this to determine the actual benefit if you stack both increased crit chance and increased crit multiplier? My calculations show an 20.25% damage increase (9% * (125% extra damage +50% extra from lore item) + 9% * 50% from lore item) from the combination of both crit lines (so 12AP). Less than 2% per AP doesn't seem worth it.

For me, yes it's worth it. It's not because it's AP-efficient. It's because Lucid Dreams is that good that you'd almost never want to take it off. And if pretty much all your spells and rune arms use force and you're not using anything else then those damage line AP's are top priority.


good discussion and some great information to digest, as I had the same questions as the original poster.

however, most of this appears to be focused on a couple of rune arms you would be using at cap. what would people suggest on the way up? do you focus more on the general enhancements, like increasing intel, boosting wand and scroll skills, etc. or do you keep resetting your enhancements to boost the damage line for the rune arm you tend to use most at a given level?

Ok...I'm not advocating what I'm about to say for everyone. For me, while leveling, I tend to zerg through places fast enough that the rune arm is impractical. I try to get a good aoe rune arm (single-target doesn't help much at those levels), I'll boost that line at least 1/1/1 but probably not more than that, but at 1-10 or so it's zerg, zerg, zerg, drop turret, charge rune arm once (maybe), EF, mow down that group, and move on. A lot of stuff you'll pick off as you run by zerg'ing (and if you know the quest really well zerg while running backward for more fun!). Level 11-14 that can get kind of tricky but it's still doable. I tend to run quests that have a lot of stealth options (blockade buster, diplomatic immunity, etc) or massive aoe options (shadow crypt) in that level range though so that same strategy still works. At 15+ blade barrier turns it back into zerg, zerg, zerg, drop bb, charge rune arm once (maybe), EF, mow down that group, and move on. :) Rune arm's place is two things - SP-free aoe damage from an early level and huge single-target damage once that starts to be important. When you can zerg a quest, drop a turret/bb, run backward jump-shooting the enemies and drop them all it makes rune arms a bit superfluous. They matter a ton at cap, can matter a ton grouping before cap, but zerg'ing (which is how I level) the slow-down gets in the way.

djl
01-04-2012, 03:29 PM
For me, yes it's worth it. It's not because it's AP-efficient. It's because Lucid Dreams is that good that you'd almost never want to take it off. And if pretty much all your spells and rune arms use force and you're not using anything else then those damage line AP's are top priority.



Ok...I'm not advocating what I'm about to say for everyone. For me, while leveling, I tend to zerg through places fast enough that the rune arm is impractical. I try to get a good aoe rune arm (single-target doesn't help much at those levels), I'll boost that line at least 1/1/1 but probably not more than that, but at 1-10 or so it's zerg, zerg, zerg, drop turret, charge rune arm once (maybe), EF, mow down that group, and move on. A lot of stuff you'll pick off as you run by zerg'ing (and if you know the quest really well zerg while running backward for more fun!). Level 11-14 that can get kind of tricky but it's still doable. I tend to run quests that have a lot of stealth options (blockade buster, diplomatic immunity, etc) or massive aoe options (shadow crypt) in that level range though so that same strategy still works. At 15+ blade barrier turns it back into zerg, zerg, zerg, drop bb, charge rune arm once (maybe), EF, mow down that group, and move on. :) Rune arm's place is two things - SP-free aoe damage from an early level and huge single-target damage once that starts to be important. When you can zerg a quest, drop a turret/bb, run backward jump-shooting the enemies and drop them all it makes rune arms a bit superfluous. They matter a ton at cap, can matter a ton grouping before cap, but zerg'ing (which is how I level) the slow-down gets in the way.

Fair enough. So for low levels it'd be worth it putting points in the fire chain then, to boost Flame Turret?

Jaid314
01-04-2012, 03:42 PM
Fair enough. So for low levels it'd be worth it putting points in the fire chain then, to boost Flame Turret?

no, flame turret is a summon and does not benefit even a tiny bit from fire damage enhancements.

Malison
01-04-2012, 03:43 PM
Fair enough. So for low levels it'd be worth it putting points in the fire chain then, to boost Flame Turret?

I've seen no difference in my flame turrets using enhancements or inferno clickies.

Levelling (12 now) I've found my rune arm to be terribly weak, which will change I expect once I get tier 4-5 arms. I've used hand of the tombs since its min level because fireball is good at breaking barrels and disruption is super nice, but my enhancements are in electric. Maximized blast rod (lightning bolt, but with 3x width) for 300 (sp cost 40) is great for crowds gathered around a flame turret.

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 04:00 PM
Fair enough. So for low levels it'd be worth it putting points in the fire chain then, to boost Flame Turret?

I'm not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure that flame turret's damage is not boosted by anything and that its survivability is boosted by Augment Summoning. It's not an aoe spell you're casting - it's a summon. It can be buffed, it has agro, etc. Just can't boost it with clickies/metas/feats (other than augment)/enhancements.

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 04:04 PM
I've seen no difference in my flame turrets using enhancements or inferno clickies.

Levelling (12 now) I've found my rune arm to be terribly weak, which will change I expect once I get tier 4-5 arms. I've used hand of the tombs since its min level because fireball is good at breaking barrels and disruption is super nice, but my enhancements are in electric. Maximized blast rod (lightning bolt, but with 3x width) for 300 (sp cost 40) is great for crowds gathered around a flame turret.

I agree with this as well. Hand of the tombs is great if you can get it (especially if you can lower the ML on it by 2 w/ mark of cannith) but basically for the disruption and the ability to blow up more than 1 barrel at a time.

I couldn't really do what Mal's suggesting w/ maximized blast rods once I'd finished buffing, etc but that was on a first life toon geared mostly in whatever his 40'ish crafting could make. I didn't really have the sp's or dc's to make it worthwhile to nuke much. Good gear, good sp pool, and especially con-opp/torc would make that a very powerful strategy.

Calebro
01-04-2012, 04:10 PM
Fair enough. So for low levels it'd be worth it putting points in the fire chain then, to boost Flame Turret?

Not to boost FT, as others have said, but to boost different Runearms.
As you level you tend to use a variety of Runearms along the way. I used Fire, Acid, Elec, Force and sometimes Light.
I tossed one point into each of the damage lines while leveling. Between that and potency, any Runearm I equipped was useful except for cold. My damage may have dropped a little, but if I was switching to it there was a reason, so a little less damage, situationally, was OK.
If I found myself using a particular elemental Runearm often, I'd spec in a few more points.
Then once at cap (actually level 19) I got rid of all of the extra elemental points.

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 04:25 PM
Also, on the damage lines it's questionable to me in taking the crit lines (even 1 point) if you don't have an appropriate crit item equipped. Crit gets better as you add more of it. It's not a given to drop it but the 1 point for 20% bonus is MUCH more powerful than the 1 point for 4% crit or 1 point for higher crit damage if you don't have an item to further boost that.

djl
01-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Another question I am struggling with is, is Lucid Dreams better than a fully upgraded Tovens? I mean, while you get pretty damn good damage with all your enhancements from the runearm attack, Tovens seems awfully nice as well. The lightning strike which stacks with lit2 weapons is very nice, and the upgraded property of Transform Kinetic Energy (same thing that Torc does) is extremely nice.

So basically, it comes down to is the greatly improved runearm attack and Arcane Lore on Lucid worth giving up Transform Kinetic Energy and Lightning Strike?

Darkrok
01-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Another question I am struggling with is, is Lucid Dreams better than a fully upgraded Tovens? I mean, while you get pretty damn good damage with all your enhancements from the runearm attack, Tovens seems awfully nice as well. The lightning strike which stacks with lit2 weapons is very nice, and the upgraded property of Transform Kinetic Energy (same thing that Torc does) is extremely nice.

So basically, it comes down to is the greatly improved runearm attack and Arcane Lore on Lucid worth giving up Transform Kinetic Energy and Lightning Strike?

Fully upgraded I'd say it depends on whether you have a torc or not. I'd probably break down and go with two 7/1/1's if I didn't have a torc as there are way more mobs that are lightning immune. Once I had a torc I'd be pretty happy with just going lucid all the time. It's not that Lucid is that much better...it's more that 7/6/6 force makes it better.

djl
01-04-2012, 09:54 PM
Fully upgraded I'd say it depends on whether you have a torc or not. I'd probably break down and go with two 7/1/1's if I didn't have a torc as there are way more mobs that are lightning immune. Once I had a torc I'd be pretty happy with just going lucid all the time. It's not that Lucid is that much better...it's more that 7/6/6 force makes it better.

Hmm. Well, there is a lot of planning going on at the current moment. I don't yet have the GPC needed to make the final improvement to Toven's, but I am only a couple LOB's away from 20 on another toon so I will be able to pick one up at that point. But if I am planning on ultimately using Lucid anyway, I might be better off just saving my GPC to use towards making an alchemical repeater. In that case, would I be better off using Lucid full time and not worrying about Toven's?

Jaid314
01-04-2012, 10:27 PM
toven's is nice, but only ever goes up to 4 bolts (not that it ever tells you this). lucid dreams (and also glorious obscenity) go up to 5 bolts. overall, toven's is the best AOE rune arm (and will work best on groups of trash), but lucid dreams has higher single-target dps. artificers also get a +15% electric damage debuff they can apply to enemies btw, which helps out a bit also. of course, on the other hand, there's a lot more stuff immune to lightning than force, and there are even a few targets where force deals extra damage iirc...

in general, you are likely to also have infusions that deal electric, and infusions that deal force/untyped/etc... so keeping both damage lines spec'd has other advantages as well.

7/1/1 in both damage lines is most versatile, and actually costs 1 less than fully maxing one line, 7/6/6 will of course give you better damage with whichever one you choose... but costs a bit more and ties you down to one type of rune arm. most of the time, you will probably use tovens hammer, and switch to lucid dreams for high HP bosses, portals, targets immune to lightning, and maybe the (helpless) training dummy so that you can get screenshots of you critting with all 5 bolts for ridiculous damage thereby enlarging your e-peen.