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View Full Version : A plea from the Bard community to the Developers!



badbob117
12-29-2011, 11:23 PM
Please give us our third tier prestige for Warchanter, Virtuoso and Spellsinger.

The time has never been better for Bards to get these. Melee around the servers are begging for some love. What a better way then to give Warchanter their third prestige! Arcanes and Divines are moaning about Mass resources and sp conservation! Sounds like a great time to give the Spellsinger their third tier. Virtuoso needs his as well.

Cmon devs. You like hearing our songs! We like singing them. For the love of all that is great about music and Bards , please look into your hearts and finish this class. It has been far to long since the bard community has watched others get buffed. In the past we buffed with no Question. We sang our songs of courage asking nothing in return. Now we are asking for our own buffs! The most unselfish class is finally at its last straw. We are demanding the love and respect shown towards other classes to be thrust upon us as well!

I really want to see the third tier for each prestige get released this upcoming year. I honestly hope that one day each Bard prestige is so radically good that you would be crazy not to want one of each in every group! The time has been long waited. Cmon Devs, Don't forget about us this year.

That is all i have to say to the developers of this great game right now.

PS.. I also would like to ask anyone who likes buffs, bard songs, heals, displace, rage and haste to sign this thread. It has been to long that this class has been swept under the rug and forgotten!

The new year is right around the corner. We want our class finished once and for all!

Oakianus
12-29-2011, 11:27 PM
I can definitely sign the hell out of this. I definitely want some more Bard love.

Aashrym
12-29-2011, 11:33 PM
sure why not :D

signed

Heck, I'll even generously like a thread with plenty of suggestions. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=311095

DavionFuxa
12-29-2011, 11:47 PM
Indeed, Devs should buff the Bards already. Heck if they don't I'll TR OUT of the class and never play it seriously again. It's fun playing it but with the lacklustre generalist abilities have been taken a beating to those more specialized in their tasks.

JollySwagMan
12-29-2011, 11:52 PM
I was on a random Wikipedia spree the other night, and came across this image under the Bard entry. Noticed it was missing some traditional dialogue from the poem though.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp338/pincenez/thebardv2.jpg

NaturalHazard
12-29-2011, 11:56 PM
I can definitely sign the hell out of this. I definitely want some more Bard love.

Me too!!! /signed!!!

Calebro
12-29-2011, 11:57 PM
Well, nothing against bards, but they collectively have six PrE tiers between three different lines.
Clerics have two in one line.
Favored Souls have two in one line.
Artificers have one.
Bards have choices. They may not be complete, but they have choices. Clerics, FvSs and Artys don't get a choice.
We all love dancing when you play that funky music, but get in line. :p

edit:
Oh yeah, and Barbs. I forgot about them because I don't care.

badbob117
12-30-2011, 12:17 AM
Well, nothing against bards, but they collectively have six PrE tiers between three different lines.
Clerics have two in one line.
Favored Souls have two in one line.
Artificers have one.
Bards have choices. They may not be complete, but they have choices. Clerics, FvSs and Artys don't get a choice.
We all love dancing when you play that funky music, but get in line. :p

edit:
Oh yeah, and Barbs. I forgot about them because I don't care.

Blasphemy! We are collectively butting in front of the line, Bard Style! :D

Jaid314
12-30-2011, 12:20 AM
Well, nothing against bards, but they collectively have six PrE tiers between three different lines.
Clerics have two in one line.
Favored Souls have two in one line.
Artificers have one.
Bards have choices. They may not be complete, but they have choices. Clerics, FvSs and Artys don't get a choice.
We all love dancing when you play that funky music, but get in line. :p

edit:
Oh yeah, and Barbs. I forgot about them because I don't care.

clerics, favored souls, and artificers aren't hurting in the class strength department right now.

with things the way they are, everything is balanced to handle the specialists, and bards often need to work twice as hard (or more) to get the same benefits as one of those specialists. a spellsinger will often need to cast 2-3 spells just to land one single-target, touch-range spell. a wizard has the DCs to do that with one (edit: and that one will probably also target half a dozen other mobs, and be at standard range). a warchanter needs extremely good gear just to be comparable to average equipped specialised melees. and a virtuoso... err... well... i'd say the virtuoso needs to figure out what the heck it is, exactly. apart from being the bard prestige that doesn't cost feats to take.

Calebro
12-30-2011, 12:27 AM
OK then, if you're going to make it about the power level then Deepwoods Sniper and Mechanic cut into the front.
Either way you look at it between total PrEs or power levels, Bards aren't in first place on the "needs work" list.
OK, maybe you can toss Virt in there.

learst
12-30-2011, 12:36 AM
Signed.

Please, think of the bards!


sure why not :D

signed

Heck, I'll even generously like a thread with plenty of suggestions. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=311095

Hm, that thread looks awfully familiar. :D

Jaid314
12-30-2011, 12:56 AM
OK then, if you're going to make it about the power level then Deepwoods Sniper and Mechanic cut into the front.
Either way you look at it between total PrEs or power levels, Bards aren't in first place on the "needs work" list.
OK, maybe you can toss Virt in there.

rangers and rogues have prestige classes that are effective. they do also have less useful prestige enhancements (although frankly, mechanic is nowhere near as bad as deepwood sniper), but that's the thing; how do you build an effective bard with reasonable levels of gear (ie without having to equip them to the point that any other class would be incredibly powerful) for something other than just singing songs to make everyone else effective?

right now a ridiculous amount of gear is required to make a bard effective at anything. while tempest and arcane archer may not be the most awe-inspiring thing in the world, they can be quite effective builds (tempest can be extremely good at survival and provides moderate DPS, and arcane archers are some of the best ranged combat builds in the game and also have quite solid survival ability if done right). assassins are still among the strongest DPS melees against enemies subject to sneak attacks, get a powerful assassinate ability, and can still handle just about every trap in the game. even acrobats have their place (very multiclass-friendly for rogues, which you usually don't want to do with a mechanic or assassin, and they pick up some nice survivability).

what prestige enhancement do you choose for a bard that you want to be effective at end game? if you want to be good at something other than buffing, you either pick which area you'd like to be less ineffective in, or you don't roll a bard.

Mudcnd
12-30-2011, 12:56 AM
Of all the classes that could use some love , i personally think bards could use the most help, and well if the bard gets some love it generally means more love for all the party members .... lets make it happen.

Aashrym
12-30-2011, 01:12 AM
OK then, if you're going to make it about the power level then Deepwoods Sniper and Mechanic cut into the front.
Either way you look at it between total PrEs or power levels, Bards aren't in first place on the "needs work" list.
OK, maybe you can toss Virt in there.

I would definitely toss deepwood sniper in the need some attention list. Rangers are due for some work too. I would throw cleric on that list. And paladin. And maybe barbarian and rogues. Heck, any melee other than monk at this point and definitely not wizards or sorcerers.

When all the new toys came it it was like Christmas when some kids got ipads and motorcycles and others got socks and underwear when you look at what some of those PrE's actually provide.

I put bards at a higher priority simply for the fact this is a DPS game and they need better ways to contribute DPS on an individual level. Every other class has that basic option and I think that is where many bard players feel the pinch, whether it's some melee options for the war chanters, spell options for the spellsingers, or a bit of either for a virt.

I see that as a basic necessity at this point so I would be happy with some more bard spells, kind of like 5 other classes recently received new spells and bards did not. Buffs and the signature bard spells like enchantments, illusions, and sonic damage. And I mean the sonic spells do what they should, like deafness causing spell casting failure.

Any way I look at it rangers have a free many shot and TWF and rogues all get sneak attack. I have the awesome ability to stop something in it's tracks if it's not immune and then spend forever trying to kill it. Either that or I can build a melee bard, watch it stop in it's tracks, hit it once, and then it's no longer stopped in it's tracks. I don't think it would be too much to ask for some more bard spells at this point. ;)

Aashrym
12-30-2011, 01:19 AM
Signed.

Please, think of the bards!



Hm, that thread looks awfully familiar. :D

It is. But since no one is using it because it's been so long since we saw anything really added specifically for bards I will probably just make a new one if we do see something added that demonstrates the development in that direction.

It appears rather stagnant but I still have high hopes of something coming soon.

Calebro
12-30-2011, 01:22 AM
I don't think it would be too much to ask for some more bard spells at this point. ;)

Neither do I. But this thread isn't about bard spells, it's about bard PrEs, of which they have three at tier two, and of those three two are decent.
No one is saying that bards don't need love, but with the exception of Virt they certainly aren't taking priority on the "PrEs that need work" list.
Classes that only have a single PrE and specific PrEs that just plain suck take priority.
Bards as a whole need a little love. Warchanters and Spellsingers do not. Not yet at least. Not before certain other PrEs get some love.

Aashrym
12-30-2011, 01:30 AM
Neither do I. But this thread isn't about bard spells, it's about bard PrEs, of which they have three at tier two, and of those three two are decent.
No one is saying that bards don't need love, but with the exception of Virt they certainly aren't taking priority on the "PrEs that need work" list.
Classes that only have a single PrE and specific PrEs that just plain suck take priority.

I'd take those in lieu of spells, but not if they suck and the better ones come out later. Then I'll volunteer to let bards wait later for the best PrE's and settle for spells now. :D

My line of reasoning is the class needs some improvements either way. I certainly cannot deny that deepwood sniper needs a turn; clerics, fvs's, and arties need a 2nd PrE; barbarians need a second PrE. Several classes need a finished PrE. Bards need could just stand a turn in general because they need something rather basic.

FranOhmsford
12-30-2011, 01:40 AM
Having read through the posts in this thread I'd suggest to the devs that:

1. Deepwood Sniper
2. Rogue Acrobat - I personally feel these need a boost slightly more than Mechanics
3. Radiant Servant III and one of the other two Cleric PrEs
4. Virtuoso

Are in line in that order as the most needed fixes for PrEs.

Deepwood Sniper is currently almost completely worthless as a PrE.
Clerics need a choice and Radiant Servant could do with a tier III anyway.
Virtuosos are currently the least of the 3 bard PrEs - A tier III would give them a much needed boost and allow for some thought to go into the other two for later work so as not to completely overshadow Virts.

As for Rogues...Both Acrobats and Mechanics could do with a boost but with the advent of Artificer I really can't see where Mech could go and Acrobats could give Assassins a run for their money given a good enough Tier III.

Oh and why did Angel of Vengeance and Battle Engineer come out with no Tier III? Let's get these finished too please.

CanuckWisdom
12-30-2011, 01:40 AM
I wish they'd make some changes to current bard abilities. What's a virt to do in the shroud? I want to know why using a dance ball, or even otto's irresistable is okay in a raid, but the virtuoso song equivalent of otto's doesnt work...

Astraghal
12-30-2011, 02:01 AM
I'd be happy if they made it so Bard Inspired Attack III cost 1/2/3 AP like Bard Inspired Courage III and Bard Inspired Damage III, rather than 2/4/6. Right now I can only afford to max out Bard Lingering Song and Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery, I can't even afford Racial Enhancements to hit and damage. :confused:

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-30-2011, 02:20 AM
/signed!

Finishing bard PrE's tho are only 1/3 the story.

We need a re-work of songs (both adding more and creating a Medley feature where one song covers multiple song buffs) and a we need to add a series of bard spells from 3.5 that have been missing from the beginning.

Tiseria
12-30-2011, 02:27 AM
SIGNED! More (effective) spells, song re-works, curse songs, and an Ap reduction on some enhancements.

badbob117
12-30-2011, 02:46 AM
I am all for other prestiges getting a revamp as well and being finished. I am all about more choices and options. That is for another thread. I have a barbarian. and yeah he is a meatbag sp sponge with very limited ways to play him. . Sure i want more options. I would love to take him out of retirement and run him again with some new kinda prestige. There is a thread for that though... Over in the barb section somewhere!

This thread is not about how gimpy deep wood snipers are! It is not about how clerics and paladins are hurting, and barbs are meatbags. This thread is about Bards.

Stay on Topic!

Calebro
12-30-2011, 03:10 AM
This thread is not about how gimpy deep wood snipers are! It is not about how clerics and paladins are hurting, and barbs are meatbags. This thread is about Bards.

Stay on Topic!

It's completely on topic.
The discussion is about bard PrEs and why you think they need to be finished. Some of us contend that there are others that need it more. That is absolutely on topic.

honkuimushi
12-30-2011, 03:21 AM
I'd be happy if they made it so Bard Inspired Attack III cost 1/2/3 AP like Bard Inspired Courage III and Bard Inspired Damage III, rather than 2/4/6. Right now I can only afford to max out Bard Lingering Song and Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery, I can't even afford Racial Enhancements to hit and damage. :confused:

Yeah, APs need to be looked at. Once the 2nd tiers were released, APs got pretty tight because of the prereqs. Tier III will make things even tougher. Bards have always been generalists, making up for not being the best in anything by doing 2 or 3 things really well. But they don't have the APs to really do even 2 things well. I remember looking into a 1/2 elf Warchanter, and after maxing out his song and taking the Warchanter prereqs, realising that I didn't have enough for much else. It really is down to doing one thing well, but still not being near the best.

Everyone expects all bards to have a good IC, maybe it's time to make it a little cheaper so they can spread out in a few more areas.

Dendrix
12-30-2011, 04:59 AM
bards need
/sing InstrumentName StringOfNotes

Hydrosteel51
12-30-2011, 07:29 AM
Third tier of PrE's, new songs, new spells, new instruments, anything! Throw us a bone here. :)

/signed

Ashlayna
12-30-2011, 07:29 AM
It's completely on topic.
The discussion is about bard PrEs and why you think they need to be finished. Some of us contend that there are others that need it more. That is absolutely on topic.

I can see that DWS needs help, serious help. However, FvS's are potent as they are, even w/out a PrE. I really don't see somebody picking a bard over a cleric for a quest or a raid, so how gimp are clerics? I did elite Misery's Peak on a lvl 2 barb with a cleric hireling with no deaths. How gimp are barbs really? Oh, and that was with starter gear. I did get invited to an elite STK on my bard, because I have rogue levels, and they needed a trap monkey. You shouldn't have to multiclass a toon to get invited to parties. Granted, that's not why I multiclassed it, but you can see what where I'm going. I don't have a clue about endgame yet, Ash is my main, and she's only 13. However, as my bard levels, the one that is my sig, there are going to be more desireable classes to add, pure rogues/artis for trap monkey, and clerics/FvS's for healing/dps utility. Basically, I'm at the bottom of the list where it's "well, nobody better is available, let's take the bard". That screams "this class needs attention".

NaturalHazard
12-30-2011, 07:33 AM
I can see that DWS needs help, serious help. However, FvS's are potent as they are, even w/out a PrE. I really don't see somebody picking a bard over a cleric for a quest or a raid, so how gimp are clerics? I did elite Misery's Peak on a lvl 2 barb with a cleric hireling with no deaths. How gimp are barbs really? Oh, and that was with starter gear. I did get invited to an elite STK on my bard, because I have rogue levels, and they needed a trap monkey. You shouldn't have to multiclass a toon to get invited to parties. Granted, that's not why I multiclassed it, but you can see what where I'm going. I don't have a clue about endgame yet, Ash is my main, and she's only 13. However, as my bard levels, the one that is my sig, there are going to be more desireable classes to add, pure rogues/artis for trap monkey, and clerics/FvS's for healing/dps utility. Basically, I'm at the bottom of the list where it's "well, nobody better is available, let's take the bard". That screams "this class needs attention".

pure bards can also bring a lot better songs for one, and depending on build help with healing CCing. In epics the to hit from bard songs can be a great help esp for rangers/rogues/pallys and twf's, but yeah a lot refuse to take more than one, even a spellsinger and a warchanter.

Avenging_Angel
12-30-2011, 09:18 AM
A Spellsinger bard is my first and favorite toon.
Even if the build could be way better and I could work on better equipment, I think I can be quite effective. The PrE songs are good (I wish SS trance worked on palemasters and SS vigor worked on Waforged as well but you can't have everything, I guess) and Inspire Courage is always welcome in a 6- or 12-man group (you have enough AP to fill the Inspire Courage line, except the Inspire Bravery enhancements). I agree Virtuoso may need some love, but probably a revamp of other Bard PrE is not near because they generally work. Sure, they are old and could be revised and finished, but in my opinion they don't need high priority adjustments.

If you are expecting a Warchanter to be generally as good as a fighter or a barbarian in the melee DPS department, or expecting a Spellsinger to land crowd control generally as good as a Wizard, you might probably ask too much from the class. Of course there are bad Wizards and good Bards, but on average it's fair to expect a Wizard to control mobs better than a Bard.
Bards are amazing at filling slots, in my opinion. "Bards are taken as a last spot if no one else better is available": in a certain way... yes, that's how it's supposed to be. I know I can heal easy epics, but I would be more confortable in eDA or any epic raid, for instance, with a real healer. You are there to provide 10% sp discount, +1 DC, increased damage to spells and melee (or the stack of Warchanter songs), spot healing, UMD, etc., once the key roles are filled. Bards are supposed to be more effective as enhancement to a group.


TL;DR: Bards PrEs could use some love, maybe, but they work anyway and Devs' efforts could be taken elsewhere before working on them.

whereispowderedsilve
12-30-2011, 09:35 AM
/Signed! /tongue in cheek Where's Valindria? :P! :)! Lolz!

P.S. Warchanter 3 darnit! :P! :)!

Strider1963
12-30-2011, 03:27 PM
Yes, Bards are overdue for the 3rd tier of prestige enhancements....

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-01-2012, 11:54 AM
Judging from the lack of responses to this thread (which verifies what I and many long time bards have been feeling) its clear that many in the bard community have long given up that Turbine will finish this line and answer wants of the community.

However, I believe 2012 IS the year Turbine will finish many of these unfinished PrEs, including bard. I believe also that they will tackle many of the wants of the bard community, some of which we've been asking for for several years. Lets just hope it happens... and they do it right.

RabidKoala
01-01-2012, 12:09 PM
/signed

I have a bard and we need more stuff to jamz to.

Xenostrata
01-01-2012, 12:31 PM
I think the order of prestige enhancements that need the most attention is
Hunter of the Dead
Deepwood Sniper
Virtuoso
Knight of the Chalice
Thief Acrobat
Radiant Servant

And, for classes
Ranger
Bard
Paladin (would be higher, but DoS changes has made them competent tanks)
Cleric (mostly for balance with FvS)

I think expanding the bard spell list and granting t3 PrEs would be a great first step for bards. Buffing Tempest, expanding KotC benefits to non-outsiders, granting Domains/t3 Radiant Servant to clerics, and generally boost the availability of good weapons (maybe some special end game named quarterstaves, since Rahl's isn't cutting it) that are normally typed as below average (like an SoS is for greatswords, except not that strong).

badbob117
01-01-2012, 12:56 PM
If you are expecting a Warchanter to be generally as good as a fighter or a barbarian in the melee DPS department, or expecting a Spellsinger to land crowd control generally as good as a Wizard, you might probably ask too much from the class. Of course there are bad Wizards and good Bards, but on average it's fair to expect a Wizard to control mobs better than a Bard.


I do not really expect a bard to be as good dps as a fighter or as good at CC as a wiz(Aside from Fascinating)! I just think its time we got something new.

anatomyofaghost
01-01-2012, 01:00 PM
/signed


Bards need some lovin' too. I'm hoping the permanent holding of weapons during lute strumming isn't a sign that we should lump it. xD

Hobgoblin
01-01-2012, 01:03 PM
/signed!

Finishing bard PrE's tho are only 1/3 the story.

We need a re-work of songs (both adding more and creating a Medley feature where one song covers multiple song buffs) and a we need to add a series of bard spells from 3.5 that have been missing from the beginning.

*cough* shadow spells cough*

hob

Aashrym
01-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Judging from the lack of responses to this thread (which verifies what I and many long time bards have been feeling) its clear that many in the bard community have long given up that Turbine will finish this line and answer wants of the community.

However, I believe 2012 IS the year Turbine will finish many of these unfinished PrEs, including bard. I believe also that they will tackle many of the wants of the bard community, some of which we've been asking for for several years. Lets just hope it happens... and they do it right.

Bases on my perception of the development cycle time from the previous big threads it would be coming time before too long. If Turbine listened and decided to do something anyway.


I think the order of prestige enhancements that need the most attention is
Hunter of the Dead
Deepwood Sniper
Virtuoso
Knight of the Chalice
Thief Acrobat
Radiant Servant

And, for classes
Ranger
Bard
Paladin (would be higher, but DoS changes has made them competent tanks)
Cleric (mostly for balance with FvS)

I think expanding the bard spell list and granting t3 PrEs would be a great first step for bards. Buffing Tempest, expanding KotC benefits to non-outsiders, granting Domains/t3 Radiant Servant to clerics, and generally boost the availability of good weapons (maybe some special end game named quarterstaves, since Rahl's isn't cutting it) that are normally typed as below average (like an SoS is for greatswords, except not that strong).

Ranger needs deepwood sniper completed as the big one.

I think you are correct that pallies can tank but tanking isn't exactly all that except in some isolated instances and I don't think our dev team has quite got that point yet. If they keep improving tanking they need to add more need for it instead of just working on those builds. The capstone is far to situational, however, and that needs a good alternative.

I actually think the only thing clerics really need right now would be the domains and an alternate capstone. Mostly domains. That would make a big difference in what can be done with them. Spell list could be longer too.

I would add improving traps for rogues to the list if you want a more complete list. Either better options or higher drop rates.

Bards are still the big one because they really do fall farther and farther behind the curve with every update as far as need for the class goes. Unique bard spells, more songs, illusions and sonic bonuses to match the class flavor would go a long long long way to towards that. The PrE's need adjusted for cost and the benefits for most songs are actually pretty small so worth looking at.


I do not really expect a bard to be as good dps as a fighter or as good at CC as a wiz(Aside from Fascinating)! I just think its time we got something new.

I do think bards should be as good at wizards at CC, or better. The design of the songs and spells demonstrate that the class should be great at CC and it is the only real offensive casting option bards have. From songs to spells to capstone the class is focused on CC.

I can see a bard not doing the DPS as a fighter because a melee warchanter will always have access to healing spells, fascinate, and usually OID where a fighter are barbarian will not.

A caster bard does not have any options other than casting or low DPS that cannot match the the other options a wizard brings to the table in direct damage and instant killing.

There is really no reason not to make a bard caster the best CC to the point taking wizard trade off CC, is still great at it, for the direct damage and instant death. That makes sense to me. Even giving bards more sonic spells for damage options those spells would do less damage the wizard damage spells and instant death so CC makes sense after some sonic spell tweaking.

Right now there isn't exactly a whole lot of trade of taking a caster over a bard. ;)


*cough* shadow spells cough*

And it would be about time. :D

badbob117
01-01-2012, 02:16 PM
I do think bards should be as good at wizards at CC, or better. The design of the songs and spells demonstrate that the class should be great at CC and it is the only real offensive casting option bards have. From songs to spells to capstone the class is focused on CC.


I stand corrected. Yeah a Max charisma caster Bard Should be the king or queen of certain enchants. Although we are so limited with our spells and songs that it is still hard to compete. The cool down of songs. The length it takes to sing em. These all kinda hinder a bard!.

Some new songs or some kinda spell given upon the third line of prestige could really Make the casting bards shine and a hella lot more fun to play!. I Am all for any new changes at this point. Even if it is making songs faster to sing. reducing the cooldown. Changing the tone. At this point will be happy with any change.

So many players out there with 18/split builds Always say ."I went 18 To keep myself open for when they make the third tier". It just sucks all the folks have been holding their breath so damn long their heads may as well be blue!

Sorry spelling and punctuation are all messed! i Am still groggy from new years.!

Xenostrata
01-01-2012, 02:29 PM
Ranger needs deepwood sniper completed as the big one.

They already have decent ranged DPS through arcane archer, I think they need a Ranged Pass more than anything (returning arrows, have haste effects work correctly with bows, etc.)


I think you are correct that pallies can tank but tanking isn't exactly all that except in some isolated instances and I don't think our dev team has quite got that point yet. If they keep improving tanking they need to add more need for it instead of just working on those builds. The capstone is far to situational, however, and that needs a good alternative.

Oh, I totally agree. I think I might've been the last KotC on my server until about a month ago when I finally caved and went DoS. The capstone also kinda sucks, since it can essentially be passed out by Artificers now (and 3d6 damage against 2 targets is NOT capstone material).


I actually think the only thing clerics really need right now would be the domains and an alternate capstone. Mostly domains. That would make a big difference in what can be done with them. Spell list could be longer too.

I could see that. A +2 Wis capstone option would be great, and I think some better healing abilities with t3 RS would also help a ton. The problem with Clerics and FvSs is that they're balanced with the intent of having one more versatile, and one more focused - the problem being that unlike wizard/sorc, there really aren't enough options to have being "focused" a suitable penalty for not having access to all the options.[/quote]


I would add improving traps for rogues to the list if you want a more complete list. Either better options or higher drop rates.

I can see that, but I would also not want to improve it too far. DDO is very active game play, and I always saw traps as a means for soloing slowly - get it to the point it can do that, but don't make it the #1 source of rogue damage.


Bards are still the big one because they really do fall farther and farther behind the curve with every update as far as need for the class goes. Unique bard spells, more songs, illusions and sonic bonuses to match the class flavor would go a long long long way to towards that. The PrE's need adjusted for cost and the benefits for most songs are actually pretty small so worth looking at.

My problem with this one is that everyone still wants a bard. I'm all for buffing them, but they aren't hurting nearly as much as some of the other classes (mostly ranger and paladin) in terms of endgame value.


I do think bards should be as good at wizards at CC, or better. The design of the songs and spells demonstrate that the class should be great at CC and it is the only real offensive casting option bards have. From songs to spells to capstone the class is focused on CC.

I think the bard should have more CC/dps options, but I don't see them hurting too badly in CC at the moment. They still do reasonably well as CCers at the moment, imo.

Kielbasa
01-01-2012, 03:34 PM
/signed

More Dev to bard love is always a good thing. There was far too little of it last year.

Aashrym
01-01-2012, 09:21 PM
My problem with this one is that everyone still wants a bard. I'm all for buffing them, but they aren't hurting nearly as much as some of the other classes (mostly ranger and paladin) in terms of endgame value.

Players don't mind accepting them but outside of hagglebots a lot of players do not like to play them because a player can make a divine caster with better healing and have instant death spells or persistent damage like blade barrier and divine punishment. Or they can make an arcane caster with equivalent or better CC but also have instant death or heavy direct / aoe damage.

This leaves them singing their songs as their main contribution in a lot of cases and then for minutes doing whatever. I think that impacts playability of the class. They need a bit more capacity between singing songs.

Hobgoblin
01-01-2012, 10:36 PM
The capstone also kinda sucks, since it can essentially be passed out by Artificers now (and 3d6 damage against 2 targets is NOT capstone material).

this ima gonna argue with you on. an extra 1d6 against almost everything you face at end game ( cause its all evil) and then an extra 2d6 against most of what you fight at end game (evil outsiders) is not bad. Plus you add the fact that you dont need the good buff from an arti and can get extra damage there

hob

Jaid314
01-01-2012, 10:41 PM
for lack of a better way to put it... i recommend bard to people as a secondary character because apart from singing songs, nobody has any expectations whatsoever from a bard. think about that for a second.

would you let a ranger into your group that did nothing more throw freedom of movement, longstrider, and barkskin on the whole group and then basically stop caring whether they contribute or not until the buffs wear out?

and we're talking about one of the less impressive classes in the game; we're not looking at a class that people expect maximum DPS out of, or a class that people expect to tank stuff. we're looking at rangers. people expect more impressive results from rangers actually doing stuff than they expect from a bard, to the point that they don't even care if bards do anything at all in between buffing.

i cannot think of a better way to show that a class's ability to actively contribute is ridiculously low. so low that it's essentially not even noticeable whether you have that bard doing anything or not. so low that people actually don't even *care* if you're doing anything or not, if anyone actually even does notice.

that right there is a problem. right now, it can be somewhat overcome by having ridiculous amounts of gear (for melee) or by taking several times as long to get less impressive results than what a specialised class can do (for CC). but there is no other class that is so handicapped to the point that they need that much effort to contribute meaningfully. bards need their prestiges tweaked not because all of the bard prestiges are terrible (although right now virtuoso is kinda hurting), but rather because bards themselves need improving and the best way to do that is by letting them specialise via prestige enhancement into specific areas to the point where their active participation in a group can be reasonably expected to have an impact.

true, some prestige enhancements are worse than the bard ones. some classes don't have any choice in prestige enhancements at all. but bards *need* to have their prestige enhancements done to the point where the bard class as a whole can function as something other than a buffbot in a party, and as something other than a hagglebot for the player.

ferrite
01-01-2012, 10:49 PM
Heck I'd be thrilled if they would finish Tier 2 of Virtuoso.

Or fix it. Or something.

N-0cturn
01-02-2012, 02:15 AM
Yeah some work on bards would be awesome.

Not only the missing pres but also fixing the issues with the songs from the second prestige rank.

So /signed

tyga250
01-02-2012, 05:39 AM
Signed.

Please give us tier 3 bard PREs!!!

redhwanict
01-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Would love to see it :)

goodspeed
01-02-2012, 10:15 AM
id be nice to actually have a real reason to go to lv 18 on a bard warchanter. As it stands any number of splashes would help out a build more. Make tier 3 count... how about that ironskin song warding 15 points of dmg !!! We can call it Mithra skin.

FastTaco
01-02-2012, 10:28 AM
My pure lvl 20 bard with eSoS, shintao+frenzy set and other very nice gear is much less dps then a mediocre built barbarian.

According to Shades DPS challenge, his barbarian Greataxer is pushing ~431 dps on Sobrien, while my bard is only about 230... with not really any way to close that gap any further(without multiclassing). I understand barbs should be better dps, but its a huge difference.

Well built rogues are reporting in at 600+ dps with sneak attack...

blametroi
01-02-2012, 11:51 AM
/signed

silinteresting
01-02-2012, 12:16 PM
ive just recently rolled a warchanter bard and kinda expected it to be like my ranger with all the buffs on but its not :( does it need some love yes it does. bards could be awesome to play if only.......... well just if only so signed from me to.

your friend sil :)

carll78
01-02-2012, 12:26 PM
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/obama-signing-alone.preview.jpg

M0NKEYB0Y
01-02-2012, 12:49 PM
Signed,

I have played almost every class to cap or close to cap. The only reason I capped my bard is for haggle... I don't enjoy playing my bard as well as my other capped toons.

Trap

mournbladereigns
01-02-2012, 02:25 PM
Please give us our third tier prestige for Warchanter, Virtuoso and Spellsinger.

The time has never been better for Bards to get these. Melee around the servers are begging for some love. What a better way then to give Warchanter their third prestige! Arcanes and Divines are moaning about Mass resources and sp conservation! Sounds like a great time to give the Spellsinger their third tier. Virtuoso needs his as well.

Cmon devs. You like hearing our songs! We like singing them. For the love of all that is great about music and Bards , please look into your hearts and finish this class. It has been far to long since the bard community has watched others get buffed. In the past we buffed with no Question. We sang our songs of courage asking nothing in return. Now we are asking for our own buffs! The most unselfish class is finally at its last straw. We are demanding the love and respect shown towards other classes to be thrust upon us as well!

I really want to see the third tier for each prestige get released this upcoming year. I honestly hope that one day each Bard prestige is so radically good that you would be crazy not to want one of each in every group! The time has been long waited. Cmon Devs, Don't forget about us this year.

That is all i have to say to the developers of this great game right now.

PS.. I also would like to ask anyone who likes buffs, bard songs, heals, displace, rage and haste to sign this thread. It has been to long that this class has been swept under the rug and forgotten!

The new year is right around the corner. We want our class finished once and for all!

/signed!

Also, Bards want their Sonic DoT! you already got that sonic DoT effect on the fang of siberys. My Bard needs to Rawk HARDER so he can be totally metal, Blacker than the Blackest Black.

P.S. I don't care if it breaks Handwraps, again.

Also, my Warchanter wants to summon Mustakrakish the Lake TROLL!

http://youtu.be/tFHVpy5s0UA

mournbladereigns
01-02-2012, 02:34 PM
OK then, if you're going to make it about the power level then Deepwoods Sniper and Mechanic cut into the front.
Either way you look at it between total PrEs or power levels, Bards aren't in first place on the "needs work" list.
OK, maybe you can toss Virt in there.

Umm How about No, Bards are always last picked for the team, and generally only desired in a few quests.

Bard class & Bard PrE's need more love. (at least you can play a Rogue Assasin or Tempest/Arcane archer)

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-02-2012, 02:37 PM
Sorry Calebro. Bard love long before Ranger love. Ranger needs to get finished like many other PrEs. But Bards need a complete rework, spells added, songs added and made more efficient. Bards are the most neglected class in the game and in need serious re-construction.

Mudcnd
01-02-2012, 09:18 PM
Sorry Calebro. Bard love long before Ranger love. Ranger needs to get finished like many other PrEs. But Bards need a complete rework, spells added, songs added and made more efficient. Bards are the most neglected class in the game and in need serious re-construction.

Well said, in so many ways bards have never been in the limelight, have never been a FoM, its almost sad that yeah to really shine it seems like most times a bard has to almost be built like a different class.
And like I said before , any love given to the bard class is a boon to the whole party.
Speed up the songs pls
Remove the cooldown between the buff songs pls
Some different options for the songs or tunes played
Maybe speed up the casting animations of some of the buffs and the cooldown timers, the faster we can buff the party the happier everyone is.
Make inspire heroics buff the whole party with the ac buff , like seriously at most most raids would have what 2 people that would benefit from it.

Calebro
01-02-2012, 09:25 PM
Sorry Calebro. Bard love long before Ranger love. Ranger needs to get finished like many other PrEs. But Bards need a complete rework, spells added, songs added and made more efficient. Bards are the most neglected class in the game and in need serious re-construction.

Sorry Leslie. Everything you just said is a matter of opinion, and I happen to disagree with almost all of it. Bards do not need a complete rework. They cold use some spells added. They don't need any songs added. If they are inefficient that's on the player. Clerics are actually the most neglected class in the game. None of the classes are going to get a serious re-construction because they are all based on material from outside of this game.
You're thinking with your bard in mind and that leaves you biased. I'm thinking with all the classes in mind so that I can look at this objectively.
Bards could use some work, but as far as PrEs go they aren't a priority. Giving them some more useful spells would be much more beneficial than finishing their PrEs. There are other classes that need PrE work much more than bards do.

Tiseria
01-02-2012, 09:42 PM
This thread is about Bards..go start another thread for all the other class sniveling.

Calebro
01-02-2012, 09:49 PM
This thread is about Bards..go start another thread for all the other class sniveling.

No, this thread is about asking to finish the Bard PrEs, so my opinion that other classes need it more isn't sniveling, it's completely relevant. But thanks for the troll.
It could be argued that all the Bards crying "gimme gimme gimme" when they have two working PrEs already and the third which is generally considered not to be working has what is arguably the best CC ability in the game are the ones that are sniveling.
PrEs aren't what is needed. More and better spells is what is actually needed. Finishing their PrEs isn't going to help the issue. Al it will do is placate you for a few months and then you'll be right back here saying that Bards need love once again. Spells will help the issue.
Bards are ill need attention. Finishing the PrEs would treat the symptoms. Adding appropriate spells would treat the illness.

Tiseria
01-03-2012, 12:28 AM
But thanks for the troll.


Pot, meet kettle.

Calebro
01-03-2012, 12:32 AM
Pot, meet kettle.

Nice try. My explaining why I think Bards aren't the priority for PrE work isn't sniveling, nor is it trolling. Your calling it sniveling is indeed trolling. But thanks for your input.

Hakushi
01-03-2012, 12:42 AM
I agree bards should get their PrEs completed, but before that, they need to reconsider the AP cost of a lot of the enhancements because some have a way too high cost, and a last tier PrE would mean costly prereqs on a class that is already having trouble with APs.

Another thing, someone mentionned about giving love to melees by giving bards love, I disagree because we don't need to see the come back of "Warchanter only" groups. When the actual bard PrEs were released, the difference of damage made for some time a lot of groups to only take Warchanters and refuse any other kind of bards. Do we really want this to come back?

Dagolar
01-03-2012, 12:43 AM
The time has never been better for Bards to get these. Melee around the servers are begging for some love. What a better way then to give Warchanter their third prestige! Arcanes and Divines are moaning about Mass resources and sp conservation! Sounds like a great time to give the Spellsinger their third tier.

[...]

Virtuoso needs his as well.


As noted by that excellent contrast of enthusiasm and role-placement, Virtuosos need love more than the other two, a matter I discussed on page 10 of the 'Let's Talk: Introduction' thread :)

I'd prefer the devs working on a second PrE for those classes yet without one (Cleric, FvS, Barbarian), but tier 3s for Bards, Clerics, etc are definitely high on the list.

And I would love the excuse to play my bards more..

Vormaerin
01-03-2012, 12:45 AM
Bards certainly have issues at the lvl 20 elite/epic level with the extreme specialization that gameplay tends to favor.

However, as much as I'd like to see a spellsinger III for my bard, I can't but think that addressing the classes that only have one PrE is far more important for the game. There shouldn't be only one viable PrE for any class.

Frankly, I really hope that Turbine puts a lot of effort into PrEs this year. They may not be money spinners like new classes and races, but they do a lot for making the game more interesting.

Calebro
01-03-2012, 12:47 AM
I'd prefer the devs working on a second PrE for those classes yet without one (Cleric, FvS, Barbarian), but tier 3s for Bards, Clerics, etc are definitely high on the list.



Exactly! Some classes only have a single PrE at tier 2, but Bards have THREE at tier 2.
Go ahead and work on the Bard spell list, but PrE work needs to go elsewhere before coming back to Bard (which is one of the more recent classes that have had some PrE love, I might add).

CanuckWisdom
01-03-2012, 12:59 AM
Please allow virtuoso abilities to work on anything spell based equivalent effects work on. I.e. why cant I dance trash in the shroud but disco ball works?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-03-2012, 01:19 AM
Sorry Leslie. You're thinking with your bard in mind and that leaves you biased. I'm thinking with all the classes in mind so that I can look at this objectively.

So you come into a thread labelled A PLEA FROM THE BARD COMMUNITY for ranger hand outs. Last time I looked Arcane Archer was a pretty elabotate rework of the ranger class. And hmmm... they reworked AA at least TWICE! Maybe you'd like to get the ranger community in an uproar about deepwood sniper, and for that Id applaud you, right after Bards get what we've been asking for for years.

Now, if you think you are the only one of the forum that can think with "all the classes in mind" then you will be slightly disappointed in all the people that are disagreeing with you in this thread. Troll all ya like... but dont try to eat our popcorn. :D

Now, back to the Bard community. I hope all bard PrEs get a serious boost so that this community can be lively again. The ones of us that have played our bards for years who DO know what we are doing wont have any trouble having fun on our bards, but its clear to me speaking with other bards that we've seen better days.

Here's to hoping Turbine moves to take a serious look at all bard types when they finish our PrEs.

Calebro
01-03-2012, 01:28 AM
So you come into a thread labelled A PLEA FROM THE BARD COMMUNITY for ranger hand outs
Yep, because I also have two Bards. That doesn't mean that I think they deserve the attention over other classes that deserve it more.
And for the record, I don't even play Rangers. But that doesn't mean that I think Bards need more PrEs before Deepwoods Sniper gets fixed.
Virtuoso may be less than useful, but DS is utterly useless, so DS needs more work that Virt does. So does Mech. And there needs to be a second choice for Clerics and FvSs and Artys and Barbarians before Bards get any more PrE love.
So the To-do list, not necessarily in this order:
Deepwoods Sniper
Mechanic
second choice for Cleric
second choice for Favored Soul
second choice for Artificer
second choice for Barbarian

After all that sees a little work then I'd love for the Bard PrEs to get finished. But not before.


right after Bards get what we've been asking for for years.
Right. Because no other classes have been asking for anything, right?


you will be slightly disappointed in all the people that are disagreeing with you in this thread.
And you've already explained the reasoning for that. The thread is labeled as a plea from the Bard community, so it gets more attention by.... wait for it.... people that play Bards.
Obviously people generally want their characters to get the most love, so since this will be viewed by more Bards than anything else my opinion will be in the minority. But it's only the minority as far as this particular thread is concerned. You could start a different thread for each of the classes and in every single one of those threads the resounding majority will be agreement to work on that class.
As my Bards are not the only characters that I care about, I look at the bigger picture.
Bards have variety already. Some classes have no variety at all.
Bards have working PrEs. Some classes have PrEs that are useless.
Bards are not the priority when it comes to PrEs. But in a thread entitled "A plea from the Bard community to the Developers!" they are going to get the most attention for it.


Here's to hoping Turbine moves to take a serious look at all bard classes before they finish our PrEs.
fify


Troll all ya like.
Yep. Disagreeing with anyone is automatically trolling. Nope. Sorry. Calling me a troll when I had done nothing of the sort is the part that's trolling.

Aashrym
01-03-2012, 01:36 AM
PrEs aren't what is needed. More and better spells is what is actually needed. Finishing their PrEs isn't going to help the issue. Al it will do is placate you for a few months and then you'll be right back here saying that Bards need love once again. Spells will help the issue.
Bards are ill need attention. Finishing the PrEs would treat the symptoms. Adding appropriate spells would treat the illness.

That depends how good he PrE's are with the 3rd tier. It might placate us for longer than a few months. I would probably be asking for spells before too long regardless because we do need that but that is a separate issue. Bards are one of only a few classes that does not have a completed 3rd tier while the existing PrE's could stand some reworking, not just completion.

I hope to see both spells and PrE's upgrades sooner that later and I agree the spells choices are a bigger issue.


Frankly, I really hope that Turbine puts a lot of effort into PrEs this year. They may not be money spinners like new classes and races, but they do a lot for making the game more interesting.

I agree PrE's might not be a money maker but I think they would do wonders for retention. A strong focus on PrE's would certainly make a lot of players happy regardless of who likes which classes.


Please allow virtuoso abilities to work on anything spell based equivalent effects work on. I.e. why cant I dance trash in the shroud but disco ball works?

That's because they seem to think the songs trivialize things for than they do. Kind of like AC that works. The fact that the songs take a long time to sing with a limited range of effects and bards take about twice as long to kill just about anything compared to a full melee let alone a caster seems to go by completely unnoticed for some reason.

It's the only class with no real damage options and yet restricting the only teeth they do have seems to be important.

Vormaerin
01-03-2012, 01:40 AM
Now, if you think you are the only one of the forum that can think with "all the classes in mind" then you will be slightly disappointed in all the people that are disagreeing with you in this thread. Troll all ya like... but dont try to eat our popcorn. :D



Wizard, Fighter, Monk, and Sorcerer are about the only classes that don't need some sort of attention. I'd love for my bard to get a third tier of Spellsinger, as I said. But that doesn't mean I think that doing so is more important for the game than giving clerics and barbarians a choice of prestige classes. I don't even play either of those classes currently and part of the reason is that there is no real choice about how to build them.

Varashad
01-03-2012, 01:43 AM
While you're at it Turbine, my cleric friends are all praying to Dol' Dorn, begging for their own third tier of divine power. Please give them Radiant Servant III and Favored Souls AoV III. Thank you!

Calebro
01-03-2012, 01:43 AM
I don't even play either of those classes currently and part of the reason is that there is no real choice about how to build them.

Exactly. Bards have three choices. Some classes don't even get a choice.
But because I disagree I'm trolling. :cool:

Vormaerin
01-03-2012, 01:48 AM
While you're at it Turbine, my cleric friends are all praying to Dol' Dorn, begging for their own third tier of divine power. Please give them Radiant Servant III and Favored Souls AoV III. Thank you!

Clerics badly need 2 tiers of anything but radiant servant more than they need RSIII. Seriously, how much more do they need to overheal the party? :P

What clerics need is the option to make an effective character that ISN'T an RS. Warpriest and whatever the third option might be would still be able to heal well enough without requiring you to look like every other cleric in the game.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-03-2012, 02:06 AM
Wizard, Fighter, Monk, and Sorcerer are about the only classes that don't need some sort of attention. I'd love for my bard to get a third tier of Spellsinger, as I said. But that doesn't mean I think that doing so is more important for the game than giving clerics and barbarians a choice of prestige classes. I don't even play either of those classes currently and part of the reason is that there is no real choice about how to build them.

I agree, those classes are pretty tight. So many PrEs to complete tho. I think AA was a great addition and technically has 5 tiers. If built right they are awesome. Tempest Rangers still kick butt. Deepwood Snipers definately need some love or just be taken out of the game. Personally, I think they should have removed the PrE entirely and replaced it with AA.

This thread is not about putting bards first, its about assembling once again what the bard community is seeking. Arguing who goes first is childish and doesnt add anything to the OPs message.

badbob117
01-03-2012, 02:23 AM
Well in all honesty priority right now should go to Bards/Rangers/Barbs. These three classes have been left out to dry a bit as far as developer love attention goes.

Lets talk about dev attention and who got what in the past year and a bit!

-The barbarian got a small fix with cleave awhile back and a boost to barb damage enhancement. but that is about it. They are still kinda suffering a far as doing anything other then being big critters!

-I would put Divines at back of line for any more attention right now. Mainly because they got the divine punishment spell that seems to work great for melee and caster builds. Divine punishment is so darned good right now that it really gave clerics and favored souls a huge much needed boost to offence. I would be kinda disappointed if favored souls got any more attention at this point. Same goes for clerics. Divine punishment is just that good! Divines are at a good point right now in the game! Same for Arcanes. They are both beastly! To say otherwise is just crazy talk! If Bards got some screaming dot in the past year then maybe my opinion would be different on this, but they did not get one.. they got squat! Hence divines do not need love as much as bards at this time!

-Artificers have yet to earn their stripes and some would argue they are already a bit to powerful for lower levels! At higher levels some players would rather a arty over a bard because they have deadly weapons and silver weps infusions, They can also fill the bard slot for scroll healing pretty darned good. . Those two spells and scroll healing have hurt the bard community a little bit. Luckily the bard songs and arty infusions stack but still Most groups Would probs rather a artificer unless they have a low to hit or need something fascinated.

-Monks get something every update. Although handwraps are still a nightmare that plagues the monk players and devs.!

-Pally and fighter got a nice lil bonus with 20% hp on one prestige. Hunter of the dead could use some work but mainly because their is minimal undead at end game. If we had some new undead high level pack then we would see more of em.

-Arcanes= They need to take a back seat for the next lil while!

-Rogue acrobat and maybe mech could use some work i guess.

- Ranged in general could use some work. Rangers in general can be pretty awesome. We just hear about a lot of bad ones for some reason on the forums. Deepwoods sniper is indeed in need of some love though.

-Bards did not get anything. unless you count the change to sleep and crushing despair/mindfog and a overall nerf to extend. The biggest change to the bard scene since 2010 was when they upgraded epic elyd edge. And that is still not exactly the best slotted weapon.

I am just saying Starting with bard would be a nice start!

You can argue all you want about who needs love more and where to start. Basically at this point we NEED the devs to start working on prestige's and balance! Just start the ball rolling! Eventually just get er all done ya know? They have to start somewhere, So Start with bard :) Move to Ranged, Then hit up Barbarians and Fighters, Pallies, Rogues ect ect ect. End it with favored soul, because well lets face it, Favored souls are godly even when built bad!

As long as it gets done i am happy. I would be happy if a dev saw this thread and looked at any one response that warranted a boost to any class. So by all means keep bumping this thread! The more you bump it the more chance of devs coming in here and seeing that certain classes need a bit more attention. I am all for that!

Just do not troll anyone or get baited into trolls and everything should be fine! That goes for everyone! No trolling, being mean or flame wars please! Bump with cleaver discussion and nothing more!

Peace out and lets all hope this is the year we get some nice new prestiges, tweaks and balance to all the classes that need it! :)

Calebro
01-03-2012, 02:26 AM
This thread is not about putting bards first, its about assembling once again what the bard community is seeking. Arguing who goes first is childish and doesnt add anything to the OPs message.

Then why does it bother you so much if I think that Bards don't need PrE work right now?
Look, it isn't as if the Devs don't know that we want PrEs released. Trust me, they're absolutely certain without any hint of doubt that we want ALL of the PrEs released as soon as possible.
Update 7 the second tier for each of the three Bard PrEs were released. Since then we've seen Favored Souls get their first and only PrE to tier two. We've seen Sorcerers get the Elemental Savant line(s) (which is technically only a single PrE with four different specialties). We've seen Artificer released with only a single tier of a single PrE.
So while Mech is useless and redundant, and always has been, Rogues have options. Deepwoods Sniper is the same. (by the way, I'm not sure who you play with, but Tempest hardly "kick butt" like they used to comparatively)
So even if we completely ignore the fact that FvSs and Artys only have a single PrE because that PrE was released after Bard t3s were, and even if we ignore the fact that Mechs and DSs are completely worthless because they have other options, we're still left with Barbarians and Clerics.
Barbarians have one PrE. Clerics have one PrE, and that one is only at tier two.
Bards have THREE tier two PrEs.
It simply wouldn't be fair to Clerics and Barbs (to say nothing of Arty/FvS/etc) to finish Bards before sending some love elsewhere first.

You think it's hard to find healers now? Just watch all the healers quit the game because Bards have three *finished* PrEs when they both only have a single PrE at tier two.

The OP claims "The most unselfish class is finally at its last straw. We are demanding the love and respect shown towards other classes to be thrust upon us as well!" but the fact of the matter is that the respect has been thrust upon them more recently than it has for most of the other classes. And this thread and the demands within it ironically smack of selfishness because of that.

xSeverinax
01-03-2012, 02:37 AM
In terms of utility and general usefulness a bard - on paper - has a lot going for it. They can heal, cast arcane spells, charm and fight. This makes a bard a welcome addition to many parties. However in practice a bard can not heal in the same league as a cleric or even a favoured soul, due to significantly lower spell points and no heal or mass heal. A bard will never replace an arcane caster due to the same much smaller blue bar, no access to spells like FoD or Wail, and much much lower enchantment DC's - surely a bard should have decent dc's for the enchant college? Alas even a non enchantment focused Wizzy or sorc can get a higher DC than the bard can. Throw in no mass aoe spells like wall of fire or icestorm, let alone dots or single target big damage spells like polar ray.

Melee focused warchanters are the only viable path atm, as I recently found out when I took my spell singer who is fully heal spec to amrath, couldn't dance or hold anything, and while mass cure moderate was healing nicely, the lack of spell points was a major hinderance. Even with warchanters though, the lack of HP and weapon choices means making some really tough decisions about feat selection.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-03-2012, 02:40 AM
As long as it gets done i am happy. I would be happy if a dev saw this thread and looked at any one response that warranted a boost to any class. So by all means keep bumping this thread!

Peace out and lets all hope this is the year we get some nice new prestiges, tweaks and balance to all the classes that need it! :)

Well said. +1 for a good post and a great thread. Most of us understand what you mean.

Calebro
01-03-2012, 02:47 AM
Well said. +1 for a good post and a great thread. Most of us understand what you mean.

LOL!
So if the OP says it's OK to boost another class besides Bard then he gets a +1, but when I suggest it I'm a troll who is asking for Ranger handouts.
Comedy gold.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
01-03-2012, 02:50 AM
LOL!
So if the OP says it's OK to boost another class besides Bard then he gets a +1, but when I suggest it I'm a troll who is asking for Ranger handouts.
Comedy gold.

Comedy gold is asking for a +1 rep when you dont even participate in the rep system... thanks for the shenanigans! +1 :D

Jaid314
01-03-2012, 03:01 AM
clerics, favored souls, artificers, and barbarians are all doing pretty well right now as-is without needing any help. bards need help. melee bards need help getting relevant melee DPS that isn't based entirely around having ridiculous gear that would make an actual melee almost competitive with sorcerer DPS, caster bards need help getting relevant casting ability, and virtuosos just need help.

more spells would help somewhat. heck, it might even help a lot (though i'm curious what spells there are that would make the melee bards do at least decent DPS).

but in order for a lot of those spells to be relevant, some changes for bards need to happen, and the most reasonable place to see that change is in the prestige enhancements. you can give out more in a prestige enhancement than you can in a single spell, because the spell doesn't really require much specialisation at all whereas the prestige enchancement does.

spellsinger III, for example, could make it so that bards could use spells like sound burst and greater shout as effectively as they use hold monster or mass suggestion. it could allow caster bards to cast more often by providing SLAs, or by providing cheaper metamagics (an option for AP which bards don't have). it can change fundamental problems with the bard class in ways that a few new spells cannot do.

warchanter III could let the chanter use some active support melee abilities, like giving their weapon a chance to hit an enemy with daze monster or letting them sunder or stuff like that. it could give them increased toughness so that they can survive melee better, or give them a song that boosts the DC of many melee abilities, or simply improve their ability to use weapons to the point where people will notice if they're piking.

virtuoso III could provide some utility songs that work reliably on anything not red-named or higher, songs that deal damage, etc...

the most reasonable place to expect a change in the bard class is via taking a prestige enhancement for your bard. the fundamentals of the class aren't likely to change, but you can use PrEs to specialise the bard to the point where it can be effective in active play, as opposed to just singing and piking.

lathreborn
01-03-2012, 03:34 AM
Def /signed

thealightykuku
01-31-2012, 08:21 AM
/signed. Emphatically.

Bards need help as a class in general & if the easiest way to do it would be to add a 3rd tier to prestige classes then do that. If the easiest way to do it would be to add some new spells then do that. If the easiest way to do it would be to just add some spells that they dont currently have but should (read: mass hold person/mass hold monster) then do that. Just do something.

Quille - Lvl 18 SS bard - Cannith

Valindria
01-31-2012, 09:52 AM
/Signed! /tongue in cheek Where's Valindria? :P! :)! Lolz!

P.S. Warchanter 3 darnit! :P! :)!

Ha I missed this thread until it was bumped today. As you might guess I approve bard improvements. We'll see what they come up with. There is a lot that I feel could be done.

JasonJi72
01-31-2012, 10:59 AM
I will continue to play a bard even if others consider them gimped. My bards always splash rogue though.

Having tried all three, I enjoy virtuoso the most. I especially like the... pause... when I tell the group that I am a virt. Please fix the bugs associated with the virt songs.

goodspeed
01-31-2012, 11:06 AM
Idk, I think if a 3rd did come, id have to be spectacular. Like war chanter 3 divine power song. With changes coming, the question would be even with a 3rd tier pre, would it still be worthwhile to take it or splash with endless possibilities.

Unless that 3rd tier was just flippn awesome, (and many a class have that and a nice cap) I think seeking a 3rd tier from another class's one especially if requirements for said pre's are lifted even slightly would be a far bigger gain.

It's almost becoming commonplace and logical to not stay a pure 20 or even 18 for that matter. And in the months to come I think that could be more so true.

AbyssalMage
01-31-2012, 12:24 PM
Just my 2 cp's

Tier III would be awesome but I have always considered Bards to be "generalists" and not specialists. So being a DPS machine like a Barbarian or a spell wielding juggernaut like a Sorc/Wiz is out of the question. We need to be able to enhance the party.

The question then becomes how do we make it NOTICEABLE to the party? And how do we tie this support system in to Tier III PrE's. With gear/TR's making DC's easy to reach on everything other than a Bard how can we augment casters? How do you improve Damage without destroying any remaining balance between NPC HP's and PC weapons?

Lots of classes need PrE's. It's just time to "fix" them :)

CanuckWisdom
01-31-2012, 12:40 PM
It would be awesome if virt 2 healing song hurt undead, of course at the risk of agroing a whole room. Also possible song idea for virt 3 would be a song with a DC based on perform, of course, that acts like the slow spell (or another debuff thats not a -saves, perhaps dispell magic song) for every enemy nearby. Either targetable aoe, or point blank aoe would be fair. And slow would be something I think is in line with what a Virt is and would make virtuoso's more desired in groups.

virtuoso song of capering really needs to be able to affect anything that otto's irresistable can. If not, an explanation would be awesome.

Alavatar
01-31-2012, 01:55 PM
As for Rogues...Both Acrobats and Mechanics could do with a boost but with the advent of Artificer I really can't see where Mech could go and Acrobats could give Assassins a run for their money given a good enough Tier III.

Q: What do you call a Rogue Mechanic?

A: An Artificer that can't use Rune Arms.

:p:D

GrampaBill
01-31-2012, 03:04 PM
A couple of problems I'd like to see addressed are:

Greater Shout should work as well at high level as Soundburst works at lower levels.
Otto's and Capering should work in the major raids: HOX I'm specifically looking at you.
A song equivalent to Crushing Despair would be a nice addition. If we can buff the party, we should be able to debuff the enemy.

As many have mentioned, spell selection for Bards is depressing.

For those of you that have spit upon the current Virtuoso PRE, my Virt DollarBill is the most accomplished of all my toons. And until you've witnessed the difference between Enthralllment and Fascination you'll never understand the power of a Virt.

licho
01-31-2012, 03:46 PM
/Signed
Definetly bards deserve some attencion, since so far it looks like as devs just dont care about this class, and any buff targets them.

My ideas:
- Of course PrE III
- Sound Enhacement lines
- Some more buff spells, like imbue weapon with sound, or sound cloak on ally.
- Some missing CC spells, like mass charm mosnter, or mass hold monster.
- Maybe a couple sound blaster spells, but with less dmg potencial than Wizzard/Sorcerers one. Just something for battle bards, since Shaout is very poor spell.
- Song off pain - the song for every bard, which will debuff enemies by some meaningfull value. Like -4 to AC/Saves/tohit/DMG (may scale with level similar as Inspire)
- Improvment of sustaining song for Virtuoso. Make it little closer to cleric aura
- Stop pretending and threating bards as not a magic user, they deserve to have magical training as well, and echoes of power. Its small stuff, but its like insult. The Artificer is in now way more magical than Bards.

Sure other classes need attencion to, especially Rangers, paladins, melee in general, archers ingeneral, offensive caster clerics... but give some love to bard to. Its one of most party oriented class, players who choose such a style should be supported, not be forgotten.

Calebro
01-31-2012, 04:37 PM
As many have mentioned, spell selection for Bards is depressing.

For those of you that have spit upon the current Virtuoso PRE, my Virt DollarBill is the most accomplished of all my toons. And until you've witnessed the difference between Enthralllment and Fascination you'll never understand the power of a Virt.

Exactly. Most of the Virts' abilities may be a bit lackluster, but Enthrallment is the single best CC in the game, hands down. The problem isn't that Virtuosos are weak, the problem is that people don't understand how powerful they can be.
Song of Capering can lock down a single target at range, even in a beholder's anti-magic field. Technically it has a save, but good luck. Mobs need to roll a 20 against it.
You want Mass Hold Monster? That's essentially what Enthrallment is, only the DC can be in the 60s or 70s. Sure they get another save when damaged, but again.... good luck making it.

What bards need is more/better spell selection. That takes priority iver PrEs. But we should be getting all the PrEs come summer, so everyone should potentially be happy.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 05:58 PM
Exactly. Most of the Virts' abilities may be a bit lackluster, but Enthrallment is the single best CC in the game, hands down. The problem isn't that Virtuosos are weak, the problem is that people don't understand how powerful they can be.
Song of Capering can lock down a single target at range, even in a beholder's anti-magic field. Technically it has a save, but good luck. Mobs need to roll a 20 against it.
You want Mass Hold Monster? That's essentially what Enthrallment is, only the DC can be in the 60s or 70s. Sure they get another save when damaged, but again.... good luck making it.

What bards need is more/better spell selection. That takes priority iver PrEs. But we should be getting all the PrEs come summer, so everyone should potentially be happy.

Whether enthrallment is good or bad is not as much an issue what is more an issue is CC is not that important in game right now and other forms of cc are more then adequate in the few places where cc is needed. My spellsinger bard can cc the heck out of things, but what does it matter if she can. That is all virtuoso has is a few cc things but who cares if some fool class can cc or not when everything is insta killed or nuked anyway and bosses can not be cc'd on top of that.

GrampaBill
01-31-2012, 06:13 PM
Whether enthrallment is good or bad is not as much an issue what is more an issue is CC is not that important in game right now . . . That is all virtuoso has is a few cc things but who cares if some fool class can cc or not when everything is insta killed or nuked anyway

Have you run epics against Drow?

badbob117
01-31-2012, 06:29 PM
Here is to hoping the new enhancement overhaul helps bards this summer. Will be neat to see all the changes every class is dealt! Summer is closer then it seems. Few months away.

Will def be a welcomed change to a lot of classes. New ways to build and tweak to our liking. Not sure how it will work out. Hoping it is for the better though. :)

Keeping my fingers crossed!

Calebro
01-31-2012, 06:30 PM
Whether enthrallment is good or bad is not as much an issue what is more an issue is CC is not that important in game right now and other forms of cc are more then adequate in the few places where cc is needed. My spellsinger bard can cc the heck out of things, but what does it matter if she can. That is all virtuoso has is a few cc things but who cares if some fool class can cc or not when everything is insta killed or nuked anyway and bosses can not be cc'd on top of that.

That's a bard's role. To buff, CC, sometimes heal, and sometimes DPS. But buffing and CC'ing are primary. Or haven't you noticed that people here are asking for Mass Hold?
As to your instakill comment, that's precisely why I suggested that PK was an acceptable alternative and wouldn't be too much. Wail is certainly not acceptable and would absolutely be too much.

maddmatt70
01-31-2012, 06:37 PM
Have you run epics against Drow?

That is nuking 101 right there.

Saravis
01-31-2012, 07:09 PM
Of all the classes talked about by people in the game, bards are the ones mentioned the most as the most boring and underwhelming class to play. They need improved and fleshed out.

-Tier 3 of PrEs
-Songs should take less time to play, particularly short term and CC songs.
-Some more good spells to make spellcasting bards more viable, (no I'm not asking for wail)

Calebro
01-31-2012, 09:48 PM
From another thread:


As discussed in another thread, I have always wanted Lyric Thaumaturge (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/lyric-thaumaturge) (from Complete Mage) as a bard PrE. Adding even a single spell of each level up to 6th from the Wiz list would go a long way towards silencing some of the bard complaints. It would also create a ton of different bard build choices. You could add PK and CoD at levels 4 & 5 for an instakiller bard, you could add Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning for a more blasty bard, etc etc etc.
Tier I gets one each 1st and 2nd level spells. Cost 1 AP each (chosen in a similar manner as AM SLAs, one choice per spell level only).
Tier II gets one each 3rd and 4th level spells. Cost 1 AP each.
Tier III gets one each 5th and 6th level spells. Cost 1 AP each.
Keep the extra SP gained from Spellsinger to denote the extra spell slots that an LT gets and fold the Spellsinger songs into it. Add extra sonic damage in tier III (or scaling through the tiers).
Done. There's your Lyric Thaumaturge.

lhidda
02-01-2012, 01:10 AM
i like the idea of tier3 prestige classes for bards. But I am afraid then I have to tr my 16/2/2 warchanter. :P

/signed

schwall420
02-01-2012, 06:19 PM
/signed x 100, also +1

ragwa1
02-02-2012, 02:50 AM
I would like to see a flat stacking damage bonus to whatever weapon you have selected for WC pre. Say +2 at least.

licho
02-02-2012, 05:12 AM
Oh yes giving bards Word line it will be totally cool.
Even if it will be only Stun it will be great.

Astraghal
02-02-2012, 07:02 AM
Wizard, Fighter, Monk, and Sorcerer are about the only classes that don't need some sort of attention. I'd love for my bard to get a third tier of Spellsinger, as I said. But that doesn't mean I think that doing so is more important for the game than giving clerics and barbarians a choice of prestige classes. I don't even play either of those classes currently and part of the reason is that there is no real choice about how to build them.

You're joking right?

Did you just put the word Fighter in the same sentence with Monk, Wizard and Sorcerer?

So you think Favored Souls are lower on the power scale than Fighters?

I'm not sure what everyone else plays, but when I'm running Epics, Barbarians and Fighters are two of the neediest, least effective classes. Monks have all kinds of CC, do great DPS, have high Saves, self-healing, Evasion, can insta-kill, tank, barely take any damage etc., Rogues do incredible DPS, have UMD, self-healing, Evasion and insta-kills. Favored Souls have CC, insta-kills, DoTs, top notch healing, wings etc.

Barbarians and Fighters can hit stuff with a weapon and use a few minor boosts. They have no effective self-healing and have to heavily invest AP to get some moderate returns in novelties such as AC or combat tactics. The only classes besides Barbarians and Fighters that need some help are possibly Rangers (manyshot is still awesome burst DPS, generally more than a melee can do, plus they can revert to TWF Khopeshs when on cooldown) and Bards could use some tweaking but are still probably better (buffs make up for sub-par DPS) than Barbarians and Fighters.

But as this thread is about Bards, we should be getting cheaper Enhancements. We need them, because we have Enhancements available to make us better, just not the points to spend on them, because some of the tier 3 or 4 ones cost 6 AP.

HernandoCortez
02-02-2012, 07:46 AM
/signed!

Aashrym
02-02-2012, 03:02 PM
Did you just put the word Fighter in the same sentence with Monk, Wizard and Sorcerer?

So you think Favored Souls are lower on the power scale than Fighters?

I don't think fighters need a lot of priority either. The bonus feats qualify them for a lot fast and give them plenty of options, high DPS and or tanking/ability later and strong starting out. They have 2 decent PrE's.

I wouldn't say FvS's are lower on the power scale than fighters. I would say fighters don't need a lot specific to the class. I would say some combat feats needs some work instead and some better options for healing potions would be a good idea. Once we see the let's talk AC thread hopefully that will result in something better for them as well.

Most of the we need PrE's looks like moot discussion to me now anyway if we're looking at changing to a tree system and finishing off the PrE's at the same time. :)

Cogdoc
02-03-2012, 05:41 AM
The three classes I mostly played and enjoyed are the sorcerer, the favored soul, followed closely in favor by the wizard. I have even enjoyed them back in the old world (well not the favored soul obviously as that didnt exist) when they were not strong at all, far from todays soloing pale master wizard's or savant sorcerer's image.

Apart from this I have tried every class at least once.

But I have never enjoyed a bard. Just saying. In these days I even see much less bards than in the old days. If I see one joining the group its like an oddity, instantly interesting. They buff blur, maybe sing once in a while, heal some and thats it.

It would be nice for Turbine to create an unpublished chart to show the ratio of classes played over all the servers, and find that the bard is at the bottom, and do something about it. I would concentrate more on their speciality, the music. But again that would take us too far. Lets just say, /signed.

Cogdoc

Astraghal
02-03-2012, 08:56 AM
But I have never enjoyed a bard. Just saying. In these days I even see much less bards than in the old days. If I see one joining the group its like an oddity, instantly interesting. They buff blur, maybe sing once in a while, heal some and thats it.

My Warchanter casts GH, Blur, FoM, Rage and Haste, adds something like +8 to-hit and damage, +4 to AC, extra HP, +2 to skills and 5% doublestrike with Songs, can Fascinate, has Otto's Irresistible Dance and Dimension Door, can scroll True Seeing, True Resurrection, Raise Dead, Greater Restoration, Magic Circle against Evil, Halt Undead, Energy Drain, Finger of Death, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Artificer scrolls etc. can wand cast Knock, Shield, Remove Curse and more.

I can also single-target heal with wands of Cure Critical Wounds and Heal scrolls. The only buff I can't really give is Deathward, because I don't want to spend weeks farming Tangleroot for 6 x Visors of the Flesh Render Guards. So I just carry 1 or 2. I'm sure I have a full stack of DW cookies somewhere..

My main issue is I don't have enough AP to spend on racial to-hit and damage bonuses, because the core class abilities require too much AP spent just to get it up to scratch. There's really no point in rolling a Bard if you're not going to maximise your songs, which are stacking buffs of a unique type. I can maximise my song potency, song length, wand & scroll mastery, but then I have very little left for class or racial bonuses.