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Combat_Wombat
12-29-2011, 12:58 PM
An easy and elegant solution to the AC problem. ATM it takes a heavy gear toll to get your AC high enough to matter but everyone elses AC shouldn't just mean nothing. This solution gives some purpose to lower AC numbers the average player has but doesn't add to much extra power to the people that already have the high AC or take anything away from them.

Drekisen
12-29-2011, 01:06 PM
An easy and elegant solution to the AC problem. ATM it takes a heavy gear toll to get your AC high enough to matter but everyone elses AC shouldn't just mean nothing. This solution gives some purpose to lower AC numbers the average player has but doesn't add to much extra power to the people that already have the high AC or take anything away from them.

Yep, and they already even have this system in place at their other game LoTRO.

There is no doubt that AC should have some kind of value other than just getting the best looking thing you kind find for cosmetic appearance.

grodon9999
12-29-2011, 01:34 PM
better idea: lower the silly to-hits in epics :)

Krago
12-29-2011, 01:36 PM
Need more elaboration on your idea. Its too vague.

So your suggestion is every 12 pts of AC, you get a 1% DR reduction? 12 pts of AC is DR 1? What happens at 23 AC? Still DR 1% or DR1?

ArcaneMelee
12-29-2011, 01:37 PM
better idea: lower the silly to-hits in epics :)

Yup - it's pretty sad that the devs went to so much effort to shove Grazing Hits down our throats, and it doesn't get any use in Epics.

grodon9999
12-29-2011, 01:42 PM
Yup - it's pretty sad that the devs went to so much effort to shove Grazing Hits down our throats, and it doesn't get any use in Epics.

and expand the variable from a 1-20 o a 2-40 (or more even). Expands downward the range of useful AC.

MsEricka
12-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Of course DR doesn't stack, and a DR5 item is easier to wear than getting a 60AC for DR5.

Silly idea, and a waste of gear.

MrWizard
12-29-2011, 02:49 PM
Of course DR doesn't stack, and a DR5 item is easier to wear than getting a 60AC for DR5.

Silly idea, and a waste of gear.
I think the implied meaning was a base DR that does stack....then it would be cool.

Darkrok
12-29-2011, 03:00 PM
Of course DR doesn't stack, and a DR5 item is easier to wear than getting a 60AC for DR5.

Silly idea, and a waste of gear.

There are 3 types of DR right now. Numeric (5/-, 10/adamantine, etc), Blocking (the extra DR you get when shield blocking depending on the shield's stats and your current BaB), and Percent-based (shield mastery feat which grants 15% with a large shield, earth stance for monks which is 5% per tier, etc). Only the highest number from each section is applied and the sections stack with each other.

I use this on my 13 monk for example to get both the 3/- dr from his boots and the 15% from earth stance and on my Pale Master to get the 10/piercing or 5/- from gear as well as the 15% from shield mastery and the blocking dr to boot.

As for the OP I think it's a great idea as long as it's in addition to the other percent-based dr's. In other words, if I have shield mastery with a tower shield for 20% and 96ac for 8% I think it should give a total percent-based DR of 28%. As you mentioned, it makes ALL ac values meaningful, does not require scrapping the current ac system, and sticks with d20. Just a nice little addition to the game.

Calebro
12-29-2011, 03:03 PM
Need more elaboration on your idea. Its too vague.

So your suggestion is every 12 pts of AC, you get a 1% DR reduction? 12 pts of AC is DR 1? What happens at 23 AC? Still DR 1% or DR1?
It isn't vague at all.
What he's suggesting is this:
AC 0-11: nothing
AC 12-23: 1% reduction to incoming damage
AC 24-35: 2% reduction to incoming damage
AC 36-47: 3% reduction to incoming damage
...
...
...
AC 108-119: 9% reduction to incoming damage
AC 120-131: 10% reduction to incoming damage

Personally I think every 5 points would be better, but that's the idea.

redspecter23
12-29-2011, 03:09 PM
The first thing to do would be to lower the "to hit" values in epic. For some crazy reason, the devs believe that high AC melee toons are a force to be reckoned with in epic and need to be kept in check. Reality check - casters are the force to be reckoned with in epic. You know, the guys with 10 ac, but still rarely get hit by trash due to the very nature of the mechanics of the class. Make maybe 90 AC the "unhittable" number for epic, with 70ish being where you start to see some benefit.

If you want bosses to have higher hit numbers, that's a different sort of situation. If trash started missing my melee toons on anything but a 20, I really don't think I'd suddenly start dominating epics on my monk any more than I can on my caster currently. After these steps are taken, if the devs want to add some sort of DR based on AC they could still go ahead and do that. As per the OP, a 100 AC toon would have 8% (assuming stacking) DR. If anything I'd go a bit higher, but it would have to be looked at very carefully to find a good number. At 8% for 100 AC I wouldn't bother with any AC gear unless it was going to start showing some misses anyway or I were specifically tanking, the same as it is now. Too much investment for too little defensive gain in epics.

Ravoc-DDO
12-29-2011, 03:13 PM
AC & DR are 2 different fields of damage mitigation. Mixing them up seems like a bad idea to me.

Combat_Wombat
12-29-2011, 03:23 PM
To clarify some points:

Yes it stacks with everything

12 for 1% instead of say 5 for 1% keeps it within the realm of useful but not something that turns the game on its head. All this has to be is a nice bonus so that people get some kind of use out of what AC they have.

Ralmeth
12-29-2011, 03:30 PM
I don't like the idea of AC adding a passive DR for several reasons. It seems like a lot of coding and testing for only a marginal gain for those people who don't put that much effort into AC. Also, my guess is that if your not going for AC then you'd rather have items on that don't give you any AC benefit so you can optimize your performance elsewhere.

Ralmeth
12-29-2011, 03:30 PM
better idea: lower the silly to-hits in epics :)

/Agree

Calebro
12-29-2011, 03:32 PM
12 for 1% instead of say 5 for 1% keeps it within the realm of useful but not something that turns the game on its head. All this has to be is a nice bonus so that people get some kind of use out of what AC they have.

Actually, that's why I said I think every 5 would be better.
Most players would have between 30 and 50 AC. Monk splashed DPS characters usually have around 50-70.
AC builds want 90+

That leaves most players at about 7%
Monk splashes at about 13%
AC builds at about 18%

Let's say the average incoming damage is about 40.
Most players take 38 of that 40.
Monk splashes take 35 of that 40.
AC builds take 33 of that 40.

These numbers aren't breaking anything. But at every 12 it isn't enough reduction to bother slotting any AC gear, so nothing would change.
If this game had HP and did damage in the thousands like many other MMOs then your numbers would work better, but with the system we have your numbers woudln't do anything at all.

redspecter23
12-29-2011, 03:33 PM
To clarify some points:

Yes it stacks with everything

12 for 1% instead of say 5 for 1% keeps it within the realm of useful but not something that turns the game on its head. All this has to be is a nice bonus so that people get some kind of use out of what AC they have.

But do you really believe that anyone would go out of their way at all for AC, giving up either caster or DPS gear for what realistically is less than 10% extra DR at endgame? I just can't see anyone really bothering with it any more than they already do. For non raging toons that really aren't trying at all, they can hit 40 AC. That's 3% right there. With some minimal tweaking, you're looking at 50ish AC for 4% DR. Any more than that requires a serious investment in AC for very diminishing returns in DR. You're talking only 4% more DR for that toon if they gain another 50 AC. I think there is merit in the idea, but the equation needs some tweaking for anyone to even bother with AC if that was the intention.

Combat_Wombat
12-29-2011, 03:35 PM
/Agree

The lower to-hit in epics thing is a cop-out phrase to keep any real progress from being made with AC. There are already people that can do almost any epic without taking a hit and those people deserve that ability and if you want to gear for that you can. Trying to get the AC system to scale better is isn't going to happen without massive sweeping gear and mob changes that will not make anyone happy and take a crapton of development time.

Combat_Wombat
12-29-2011, 03:37 PM
But do you really believe that anyone would go out of their way at all for AC, giving up either caster or DPS gear for what realistically is less than 10% extra DR at endgame? I just can't see anyone really bothering with it any more than they already do. For non raging toons that really aren't trying at all, they can hit 40 AC. That's 3% right there. With some minimal tweaking, you're looking at 50ish AC for 4% DR. Any more than that requires a serious investment in AC for very diminishing returns in DR. You're talking only 4% more DR for that toon if they gain another 50 AC. I think there is merit in the idea, but the equation needs some tweaking for anyone to even bother with AC if that was the intention.


Did I say anywhere I thought this was or should cause people to re-gear why are you putting words into my mouth? This is to give purpose to the AC people already have plain and simple.

redspecter23
12-29-2011, 03:45 PM
Did I say anywhere I thought this was or should cause people to re-gear why are you putting words into my mouth? This is to give purpose to the AC people already have plain and simple.

I apologize for the assumption then. So the intention is just to add a small bonus to those that already have AC. My basic point still stands though. My monk can have anywhere from a 40 AC to a 110 AC depending on how I gear him out. The suggested DR bonus in the OP would have exactly 0 impact on my decision for how to gear him out for any particular quest. In situations where I can have an AC that matters, I'll go for the AC gear and in situations where AC doesn't matter I'll go for DPS gear instead. I would not go out of my way at all to have any extra AC in epics because of the DR bonus. The suggested DR bonus is a non factor with it being such a low number. It's a suggested change that obviously a positive change for any character that has at least 12 AC. That's a fact. It's also a fact that adding 3 drops of water to a lake adds to it's volume, it's just that it's such a small amount that it doesn't matter.

Darkrok
12-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Did I say anywhere I thought this was or should cause people to re-gear why are you putting words into my mouth? This is to give purpose to the AC people already have plain and simple.

Exactly! There are toons that have NO AC. The raging non-forged barbarian wearing DT robes for easy swapping for example. They may actually manage to lower their AC below 10. :)

Then there are your toons like dwarven axesinger style builds that can push into the 50's on a bard. Or monks that with no special decisions made to support AC can get to pretty high numbers.

Those classes currently get very little other than some pixels on the character sheet saying they have a shiny 50+ac. It's essentially meaningless on most of the content they'll run at cap. But give them some stacking DR and then, while it may not be a game changer, at least it would mean something. And something would be better than nothing.

I'm not opposed to something like 0.2% per point of AC (5 AC=1% DR) but you'd have to carefully examine things to make sure that the total stacking that a toon could get then (like someone with a tower shield + improved shield mastery getting 25% stacking that with 105AC for a total of 51% DR) doesn't break parts of the game. That's the beauty of %-based DR though...it scales well with the damage in the game. If the mobs are hitting for 20 damage that's only acting as 10 DR on that crazy 105AC toon using Improved Shield Mastery. It only gets to be a lot of mitigation when the incoming damage is also very high.

I'd also suggest that the percent DR not round. Leave it as a decimal and then let the damage itself round off if appropriate. That keeps every point of AC meaningful at some level of incoming damage.

Darkrok
12-29-2011, 03:50 PM
I apologize for the assumption then. So the intention is just to add a small bonus to those that already have AC. My basic point still stands though. My monk can have anywhere from a 40 AC to a 110 AC depending on how I gear him out. The suggested DR bonus in the OP would have exactly 0 impact on my decision for how to gear him out for any particular quest. In situations where I can have an AC that matters, I'll go for the AC gear and in situations where AC doesn't matter I'll go for DPS gear instead. I would not go out of my way at all to have any extra AC in epics because of the DR bonus. The suggested DR bonus is a non factor with it being such a low number. It's a suggested change that obviously a positive change for any character that has at least 12 AC. That's a fact. It's also a fact that adding 3 drops of water to a lake adds to it's volume, it's just that it's such a small amount that it doesn't matter.

I'd agree with you. The goal should be to add an incentive to AC that would make it worthwhile not to dump AC if you have a choice otherwise but at the same time not have the % DR trump other build choices. A nice noticeable bonus for having AC. As it stands now I'd never wear anything but robes, even on my toons that could be rocking mithral full plate. There's a WORLD of difference ac-wise between Mithral Full Plate and robes but that difference never matters for a non-AC toon. This change might at least change DDO to look more like D&D and less like a pajama party. ;)

Valindria
12-29-2011, 04:31 PM
I like it. I like 10 ac = 1% (easier for me than having to think about x/12). It's not over powering on it's own, it adds a nice bonus.

Mat59765
12-29-2011, 07:30 PM
how about AC = % chance to be missed

ie 90 AC 10% chance of being hit (100% -90%)

maybe have instead of a to hit have an armour bypass ability so certain more powerfull mobs decrease your AC 20 points that way 80 different AC scores are valid rather than just 20

Sidewaysgts86
12-30-2011, 03:25 AM
I find the timing on this thread amusing. I actually had intended to make a thread with a VERY similar idea- but with more break down and details on the idea. I wrote all this down 2 nights ago into a text document with the intent to make the thread, but shied away from it on second thoughts due to how i figured the community would perceive the idea (and get flames in the process).


Edit: I guess I might toss the idea up after all- and see what the response is. Couldnt hurt i spose. Ill just go into hiding for a few months til people forget who i was :)

Aesop
12-30-2011, 08:05 AM
Exactly! There are toons that have NO AC. The raging non-forged barbarian wearing DT robes for easy swapping for example. They may actually manage to lower their AC below 10. :)

Then there are your toons like dwarven axesinger style builds that can push into the 50's on a bard. Or monks that with no special decisions made to support AC can get to pretty high numbers.

Those classes currently get very little other than some pixels on the character sheet saying they have a shiny 50+ac. It's essentially meaningless on most of the content they'll run at cap. But give them some stacking DR and then, while it may not be a game changer, at least it would mean something. And something would be better than nothing.

I'm not opposed to something like 0.2% per point of AC (5 AC=1% DR) but you'd have to carefully examine things to make sure that the total stacking that a toon could get then (like someone with a tower shield + improved shield mastery getting 25% stacking that with 105AC for a total of 51% DR) doesn't break parts of the game. That's the beauty of %-based DR though...it scales well with the damage in the game. If the mobs are hitting for 20 damage that's only acting as 10 DR on that crazy 105AC toon using Improved Shield Mastery. It only gets to be a lot of mitigation when the incoming damage is also very high.

I'd also suggest that the percent DR not round. Leave it as a decimal and then let the damage itself round off if appropriate. That keeps every point of AC meaningful at some level of incoming damage.

I think we're are on the same page. I just was thinking along a similar line

Aesop