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Don1966
12-29-2011, 11:37 AM
as per the thread title, ddo needs more longswords introduced. there are only 3 epic named longswords in the game that i can find, 4 if we count alchemical. one of those, the Mournlode longsword seems to be designed as an undead beater. can we get a longsword version of Terror and call it Horror? how about a longsword version of the elemental khopesh of water? time to give those that use longswords a bit of love. and while you're at it show a bit of love for the dwarven axe builds, as woefully small as the longsword list is, the dwarven axe list is almost non existent.

Asmodeus451
12-29-2011, 11:59 AM
while true there are few Epic long swords, there ARE some really nice ones

theres one in Abbot (think its called Enduring conviction)

the new one in VOD is nice if you're a Pally (it doesnt dispell DOTs as far as i've seen)

those are just 2 off the top of my head

Diyon
12-29-2011, 12:27 PM
While I have played with longsword builds before, I think there's a good number of them, and other than Kensais, no one is really hard locked into them. (Dwarven axes are the same as far as the locking in, but really need some more choices) Anyone specialized in those weapons can generally also use at least a few other types of weapons fairly well. I don't list WSS builds here, because they can use handwraps which will still make use of TWF and probably end up doing more damage even without the bludgeoning feats anyways (not calc'ing it right now, if anything, it wouldn't be far behind). Even kensai will still be getting a good benefit with something other than their chosen type.

The weapons that tend to need more options are these: bows, crossbows, handwraps, quarterstaffs, and shields.

This is because these are all used by builds that tend to lock them into a single type of weapon for primary use and nothing else.

Archers/crossbow users have their feats set up to use those weapons, using something else their build parts become useless for the most part. AA's can't use any of their abilities with other weapons.

Monks pretty much are set into handwraps, using anything else and suddenly they are uncentered, not using their TWF feats, can't use a number of monk abilities, aren't getting their bludgeoning feats, and/or attacking much slower. Handwraps have this issue, but the devs seem to be doing a good job of addressing it here as their are many wraps options now and we are consistently getting more.

Quarterstaffs for acrobats, If you're a staff acrobat, you don't have TWF, you likely have bludgeoning feats, dex mod to SA, and are using that stacking attack speed buff to try to remain competitive at all. You pick up another TH weapon, you're losing out on your attack speed, dex to SA bonus, and the benefit that acrobat was giving there, I can't see a THF acrobat without a staff working very well. Use two weapons or handwraps and you don't have the TWF to back it up. So if you are a staff acrobat, you pretty much are staffs or you're gimp with something else comparatively.

Shields just don't have an alternative that accomplishes the same thing shields are there to do.

These weapons need the special attention of additions more often because the builds aren't using anything else, period, and its nice when new content comes out to maybe have a new weapon you could go get. To illustrate the difference, a barbarian can pretty much go get any slashing TH weapon and they'll be fine using that type. A TWF can go grab up any one handed slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning weapon (appropriate one there) and their abilities will still be helping out. So most people have a bunch of new weapon choices for a character when new content comes out, or at least one every other update or so. Whether they like/want the weapon or not is a whole other issue, its still a choice for them and their abilities will support using it.

My apologies for my long winded rant. To close, neglected weapon types should definitely get some attention to, just the ones I listed have another pressing need over let's say, picks.

Aesop
12-29-2011, 12:55 PM
We need more and better reasons to use long swords.

Elves should have better Long Sword related Enhancements

Elves of the Aerenal line


Aerenal Ascetic 1
Cost: 1AP
lvl 5
Prerequisite: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage 1, Whirling Steel Strike
Benefit: +1 Damage while centered and +1 ki per critical hit with Long Swords


Aerenal Ascetic 2
Cost: 2AP
lvl 10
Prerequisite: Aerenal Ascetic 1, Aerenal Elf Melee Attack 1
Benefit: +1 Damage while centered and +1 ki per critical hit with Long Swords


Aerenal Ascetic 3
Cost: 3AP
lvl 15
Prerequisite: Aerenal Ascetic 2, Aerenal Elf Melee Damage 2
Benefit: +1 Damage while centered and +1 ki per critical hit with Long Swords


Aerenal Ascetic 4
Cost: 4AP
lvl 20
Prerequisite: Aerenal Ascetic 3, Aerenal Elf Melee Attack 2
Benefit: +1 Damage while centered and +1 ki per critical hit with Long Swords


Actually I had further ideas on this but I'll post them elsewhere

Aesop

Don1966
12-30-2011, 06:27 AM
While I have played with longsword builds before, I think there's a good number of them, and other than Kensais, no one is really hard locked into them. (Dwarven axes are the same as far as the locking in, but really need some more choices) Anyone specialized in those weapons can generally also use at least a few other types of weapons fairly well. I don't list WSS builds here, because they can use handwraps which will still make use of TWF and probably end up doing more damage even without the bludgeoning feats anyways (not calc'ing it right now, if anything, it wouldn't be far behind). Even kensai will still be getting a good benefit with something other than their chosen type.

The weapons that tend to need more options are these: bows, crossbows, handwraps, quarterstaffs, and shields.

This is because these are all used by builds that tend to lock them into a single type of weapon for primary use and nothing else.

Archers/crossbow users have their feats set up to use those weapons, using something else their build parts become useless for the most part. AA's can't use any of their abilities with other weapons.

Monks pretty much are set into handwraps, using anything else and suddenly they are uncentered, not using their TWF feats, can't use a number of monk abilities, aren't getting their bludgeoning feats, and/or attacking much slower. Handwraps have this issue, but the devs seem to be doing a good job of addressing it here as their are many wraps options now and we are consistently getting more.

Quarterstaffs for acrobats, If you're a staff acrobat, you don't have TWF, you likely have bludgeoning feats, dex mod to SA, and are using that stacking attack speed buff to try to remain competitive at all. You pick up another TH weapon, you're losing out on your attack speed, dex to SA bonus, and the benefit that acrobat was giving there, I can't see a THF acrobat without a staff working very well. Use two weapons or handwraps and you don't have the TWF to back it up. So if you are a staff acrobat, you pretty much are staffs or you're gimp with something else comparatively.

Shields just don't have an alternative that accomplishes the same thing shields are there to do.

These weapons need the special attention of additions more often because the builds aren't using anything else, period, and its nice when new content comes out to maybe have a new weapon you could go get. To illustrate the difference, a barbarian can pretty much go get any slashing TH weapon and they'll be fine using that type. A TWF can go grab up any one handed slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning weapon (appropriate one there) and their abilities will still be helping out. So most people have a bunch of new weapon choices for a character when new content comes out, or at least one every other update or so. Whether they like/want the weapon or not is a whole other issue, its still a choice for them and their abilities will support using it.

My apologies for my long winded rant. To close, neglected weapon types should definitely get some attention to, just the ones I listed have another pressing need over let's say, picks.

according to cubicle ninja there are 27 named longbows, 3 of which are epic. i do suspect there are one or 2 missing from that list. there are 5 named shortbows, 1 epic. so i'd say at the moment bows really don't need any additions.
light crossbows, there are 3, no epics.
light repeaters, 1, when made epic becomes a heavy.
heavy repeaters 2, 1 of which is the epic one that started as a light. actually there are 3, cubicle ninja doesn't list the u12 one.
heavy crossbows, 3 are listed, 1 is epic.
great crossbows, 1 is listed.
so it looks like crossbows could use a bit of love but i suspect with turbine trying to push artificers more are already on the way.
handwraps, well those need a ton of love before they can even think about trying to introduce any new named ones.
quarterstaves, there are 50 listed, 5 of which are epic.
shields, 69 are listed though 15 are various levels of the swashbuckler, there are 6 epic ones, only counting swashbuckler once.

as far as AA, if it's a ranger then they get TWF for free, and full martial proficiency so they are not hurting for weapons. if the AA is from racial, i.e. elves, then they also get proficiency with longswords regardless of class.

the thing with longswords is that divines that are followers of the sovereign host get bonuses for those. with the reduced melee capability divines have they really need that bonus but with the limited options for longswords they are hurting. you mentioned WSS builds and that they can just use handwraps. well, handwraps get something broken every update and there is a reason they took the WSS feat, so they can use longswords and stay centered.

KillEveryone
12-30-2011, 06:46 AM
What we really need are more dwarven axes.

There are 0 that are able to be epic'ed and only 2 that are named.

Aesop
12-30-2011, 07:21 AM
What we really need are more dwarven axes.

There are 0 that are able to be epic'ed and only 2 that are named.

Yeah more DWAs would be good... not that I use them ever but I'd still like those that do to have options

Aesop

zeonardo
12-30-2011, 07:45 AM
Falchions, Maul, Heavy Picks, Maces, Quarterstaves...
SHIELDS...

Diyon
12-30-2011, 09:18 AM
I think you kind of missed my point with that post, comments in green:


according to cubicle ninja there are 27 named longbows, 3 of which are epic. i do suspect there are one or 2 missing from that list. there are 5 named shortbows, 1 epic. so i'd say at the moment bows really don't need any additions.

The point I was making is that bows need special attention as far as making items. If every weapon type had an equal amount of items for it right now, and if every update introduced a few new weapons but not of every type each update, then bows (and the others I listed) need to there more often, and yes, end up having more options than another weapon type. This is because for most builds, multiple weapon types can reasonably considered options.

light crossbows, there are 3, no epics.
light repeaters, 1, when made epic becomes a heavy.
heavy repeaters 2, 1 of which is the epic one that started as a light. actually there are 3, cubicle ninja doesn't list the u12 one.
heavy crossbows, 3 are listed, 1 is epic.
great crossbows, 1 is listed.
so it looks like crossbows could use a bit of love but i suspect with turbine trying to push artificers more are already on the way.

You're probably right here, turbine is probably going to be giving the needed attention here. As I said though, regardless of what exists, they need to keep doing this.

handwraps, well those need a ton of love before they can even think about trying to introduce any new named ones.

Handwraps bugs is whole other issue, I was just stating that these need to be released as options more, which as I said, Turbine seems to be doing well with recently.

quarterstaves, there are 50 listed, 5 of which are epic.

Okay you completely looked at this one the wrong way. Go back and look at those staffs and tell me how many of those are built with melee in mind. This like counting the green blade and caster daggers as melee weapon options. There are two epic staffs that are melee centric: epic souleater and epic staff of nat gann. The second one isn't even all that great for most. Beyond that, as far high lvl staffs, you have: rahl's might, dreamspitter, and maybe breeze.

shields, 69 are listed though 15 are various levels of the swashbuckler, there are 6 epic ones, only counting swashbuckler once.

Shields might be being treated fine, but I still think they need the continuing extra attention

as far as AA, if it's a ranger then they get TWF for free, and full martial proficiency so they are not hurting for weapons. if the AA is from racial, i.e. elves, then they also get proficiency with longswords regardless of class.

This is true, but the melee weapon options don't compete with their ranged options, they aren't alternatives to each other, they are alternative styles that are separate. If I only have a handful of bows to choose from on an AA, and thousands of melee weapons you can't tell me I'm not hurting for weapons since I have tones and tons of melee weapons to choose from. Ya, I can use them, and probably will use them at times, but I'm built to range and none of those are viable options there.

the thing with longswords is that divines that are followers of the sovereign host get bonuses for those. with the reduced melee capability divines have they really need that bonus but with the limited options for longswords they are hurting. you mentioned WSS builds and that they can just use handwraps. well, handwraps get something broken every update and there is a reason they took the WSS feat, so they can use longswords and stay centered.

I'm not saying that we don't need some more longsword options for this. I'm just saying the attention isn't as critical to the builds. For example, yes, that fvs would lose their sovereign host bonuses if they pull out a scimitar (or some other slashing that they have proficiency in), but that's just a few points of attack and damage, everything else they've chosen to build that character still works. Imp Crit still works, TWF still works, etc. It's not much different than changing from say a +5 holy burst longsword to a +3 holy burst longsword (or whatever equivalent). Yes, divines are a little locked in, but in this case longsword falls into the same category as scimitars, shortswords, greatswords, and long bows. In any case, yes I agree that they need more options, but I don't think they need the extra attention every few update even after they a decent set of options. And I think a few of the ones I listed more importantly need the extra options.

The fact that handwraps are broken all the time is a completely different issue than what I'm talking about. Yes they used a feat to stay centered with longswords, I'm just saying here that when they release new handwraps, they are still potentially a reasonable option for a WSS build to consider.



The point I was making was that the builds I listed give up a whole lot more than most other builds by changing weapon type, and thus, in order to see new weapon options come around for that build, they need to make new ones of them more often than other weapon types.

Let me illustrate here:

Build A: Barbarian
Build B: Monk
Build C: Assassin Rogue
Build D: Tempest Ranger
Build E: Thief Acrobat
Build F: Archer

New weapons in hypothetical updates:
Update I: Great axe, rapier, scimitar, long sword, maul, wraps
Update II: Great sword, longbow, shortsword, kukri, battleaxe, quarterstaff
Update III: Khopesh, light pick, falchion, greatclub, kama, repeating heavy crossbow

So that's 3 updates with 6 different new weapons in each.

Options for each build:
A: 3 if you just count slashing, 5 or 6 otherwise. 2-3 if you're bludgeon spec'd and don't count slashing.
B: 1 option, 2 if you count kama but they would have to be spectacular kamas to even get on the radar.
C: 4-5 if you only count finessable ones. 8-9 if any one-handed. If you go by finesse pierce, 3. Finesse slash 1-2. Just slashing, 4-5.
D: 4-5 slashing. 8-9 either. 3 piercing.
E: 1.
F: 1.

B, E, F, are considerably shorted comparatively, and that's over three updates.

Over the last 12 updates for instance, acrobats get this many new weapon options:

4. 5 if you count alchemical. 1 one of those is utterly crappy (Nature's vengeance), and one can really only be best used by the smaller subset of dex based acrobats effectively (nat gann staff). So that lines up pretty well as far as my example there.

In contrast, in those same 12 updates, there are 4 greatswords, 5 greataxes, and 2 falchions, for a total of 11 THF slashing options for that barbarian there. 12-14 if you count alchemical.

Once again, I'm not saying that longswords options aren't an issue, I'm just saying its a smaller issue compared to this.

-----


Aesop, that actually looks like it would make WSS useful compared to wraps damage wise, and provided those limits, not necessarily OP (numbers check pending).

Aesop
12-30-2011, 09:42 AM
-----


Aesop, that actually looks like it would make WSS useful compared to wraps damage wise, and provided those limits, not necessarily OP (numbers check pending).

Really I'm not sure its going far enough overall honestly as it does cost significant AP and Feats

22AP and 2 Feats to just about keep up with Handwraps might not be enough.

Aesop

Diyon
12-30-2011, 09:48 AM
Really I'm not sure its going far enough overall honestly as it does cost significant AP and Feats

22AP and 2 Feats to just about keep up with Handwraps might not be enough.

Aesop

Perhaps. Maybe if they had something to do with all that ki. I mean imagine that in fire stance with an enhanced ki item.

Aesop
12-30-2011, 10:05 AM
Perhaps. Maybe if they had something to do with all that ki. I mean imagine that in fire stance with an enhanced ki item.

Yeah I mean with all that including the Feats and AP you only have +3 to hit +6 to damage and +4 Ki on Criticals. Something like a Greensteel Longsword is a D10 (5.5) vs the Monk which is... crud I can't remember... In PnP its 2d10 (11) and the Critical profile of the Long Sword is better but also doesn't get the full off hand damage suffers more penalties (unless you take yet another feat) and can't be used with ToD QP or SF...


Just doesn't seem enough except on a very devoted concept build.


Maybe if we lowered some costs of the racial weapon bonus at least of the second tiers (Aerenal Elf Melee Damage/Attack 2) from 4AP to 2AP, changed the levels to Character level 4 +5 per tier and added in the following.


Aerenal Master Swordsman

Cost: 4AP
Requires: Aerenal Ascetic 4 , Character level 20
Benefit: 5% Double Strike chance with Long Swords and Off Hand Long Swords use full Strength Modifier for Damage

Aesop

Don1966
12-30-2011, 10:30 AM
I think you kind of missed my point with that post, comments in green:



The point I was making was that the builds I listed give up a whole lot more than most other builds by changing weapon type, and thus, in order to see new weapon options come around for that build, they need to make new ones of them more often than other weapon types.

Let me illustrate here:

Build A: Barbarian
Build B: Monk
Build C: Assassin Rogue
Build D: Tempest Ranger
Build E: Thief Acrobat
Build F: Archer

New weapons in hypothetical updates:
Update I: Great axe, rapier, scimitar, long sword, maul, wraps
Update II: Great sword, longbow, shortsword, kukri, battleaxe, quarterstaff
Update III: Khopesh, light pick, falchion, greatclub, kama, repeating heavy crossbow

So that's 3 updates with 6 different new weapons in each.

Options for each build:
A: 3 if you just count slashing, 5 or 6 otherwise. 2-3 if you're bludgeon spec'd and don't count slashing.
B: 1 option, 2 if you count kama but they would have to be spectacular kamas to even get on the radar.
C: 4-5 if you only count finessable ones. 8-9 if any one-handed. If you go by finesse pierce, 3. Finesse slash 1-2. Just slashing, 4-5.
D: 4-5 slashing. 8-9 either. 3 piercing.
E: 1.
F: 1.

B, E, F, are considerably shorted comparatively, and that's over three updates.

Over the last 12 updates for instance, acrobats get this many new weapon options:

4. 5 if you count alchemical. 1 one of those is utterly crappy (Nature's vengeance), and one can really only be best used by the smaller subset of dex based acrobats effectively (nat gann staff). So that lines up pretty well as far as my example there.

In contrast, in those same 12 updates, there are 4 greatswords, 5 greataxes, and 2 falchions, for a total of 11 THF slashing options for that barbarian there. 12-14 if you count alchemical.

Once again, I'm not saying that longswords options aren't an issue, I'm just saying its a smaller issue compared to this.



and the point i am trying to make here is that WSS builds give up a lot when they switch to a different weapon as do sovereign host followers. you mention the last few updates, well there have been 4 longswords introduced, the mournlode, alchemical, watcher's blade and time blade. note that i don't count the Divine Vengeance longsword as it is only useful in the hands of a paladin and doesn't help other longsword users. of course every build got an alchemical weapon. i look at the level 20 mournlode longsword and think, just how much higher end content is there with undead? epic wizard king, abbot and...? watcher's blade really doesn't do any damage other than base weapon damage nor does timeblade.
as far as the acrobat builds using quarterstaves, yes they haven't gotten too many new ones in the last few updates but they already had some very good ones in the form of dreamspitter and the various versions of rahls might plus they did get soul eater. all three of these do very well on just about all mobs.
AA builds have many enhancements to make most of the bows they get into very potent weapons, slaying arrows come to mind. longsword users don't get enhancements, Aesops idea actually looks rather nice, would be better if it were expanded to include sovereign host followers.


I'm not saying that we don't need some more longsword options for this. I'm just saying the attention isn't as critical to the builds. For example, yes, that fvs would lose their sovereign host bonuses if they pull out a scimitar (or some other slashing that they have proficiency in), but that's just a few points of attack and damage, everything else they've chosen to build that character still works.

i strongly disagree with this, few divines are able to max out strength and thus need as many bonuses as they can get to be able to hit mobs in higher content. yes they could go with finesse and use a feat on a feat starved class and also give up doing any real damage. your solution is to give up the bonuses they do get to use a different weapon instead of making more weapons available that use those bonuses.
you say that 27 named bows aren't enough, i say that 7 named longswords aren't enough.

Zephea
12-30-2011, 11:23 AM
the thing with longswords is that divines that are followers of the sovereign host get bonuses for those. with the reduced melee capability divines have they really need that bonus but with the limited options for longswords they are hurting. you mentioned WSS builds and that they can just use handwraps. well, handwraps get something broken every update and there is a reason they took the WSS feat, so they can use longswords and stay centered.

Thank you, yes. I saw your thread and this is exactly what I was thinking. Why should I waste a feat on a melee option if I so rarely need to use it? Why can't I use this option properly? My crafting levels are not high enough so I am dependant on dumb luck for my items. It would be great if there were decent longswords in the game I could aim for. I am not talking epic and I am somewhat annoyed at your alchemical suggestion. I use it so infrequently it's not going to be a GS choice any time in the near future as much more important items need to be made first.



I'm not saying that we don't need some more longsword options for this. I'm just saying the attention isn't as critical to the builds. For example, yes, that fvs would lose their sovereign host bonuses if they pull out a scimitar (or some other slashing that they have proficiency in), but that's just a few points of attack and damage, everything else they've chosen to build that character still works.


Maybe not critical... but um... "a few points of attack and damage" ah huh? If you're only going to pull things out occasionally and you want to take advantage of what is there without taking feats for this, then this is kind of sad. Why bother with it at all?

Anyway... the two of you are very much focusing endgame. I just care from a mainly caster cleric with not much stuff who occasional meets mobs with too high a reflex save and doesn't want to waste so much sp debuffing/casting and would like to occasionally just hit a mob. Reliably. With all the "attack and damage" possible options available thanks. And hopefully with as decent a longsword as I can get my hands on in the near future instead of some impossible distant future.

Diyon
12-30-2011, 03:21 PM
and the point i am trying to make here is that WSS builds give up a lot when they switch to a different weapon as do sovereign host followers. you mention the last few updates, well there have been 4 longswords introduced, the mournlode, alchemical, watcher's blade and time blade. note that i don't count the Divine Vengeance longsword as it is only useful in the hands of a paladin and doesn't help other longsword users. of course every build got an alchemical weapon. i look at the level 20 mournlode longsword and think, just how much higher end content is there with undead? epic wizard king, abbot and...? watcher's blade really doesn't do any damage other than base weapon damage nor does timeblade.
as far as the acrobat builds using quarterstaves, yes they haven't gotten too many new ones in the last few updates but they already had some very good ones in the form of dreamspitter and the various versions of rahls might plus they did get soul eater. all three of these do very well on just about all mobs.
AA builds have many enhancements to make most of the bows they get into very potent weapons, slaying arrows come to mind. longsword users don't get enhancements, Aesops idea actually looks rather nice, would be better if it were expanded to include sovereign host followers.


i strongly disagree with this, few divines are able to max out strength and thus need as many bonuses as they can get to be able to hit mobs in higher content. yes they could go with finesse and use a feat on a feat starved class and also give up doing any real damage. your solution is to give up the bonuses they do get to use a different weapon instead of making more weapons available that use those bonuses.
you say that 27 named bows aren't enough, i say that 7 named longswords aren't enough.

Okay you completely missed my point again, and that's clear from "your solution is to give up the bonuses they do get to use a different weapon instead of making more weapons available that use those bonuses.
you say that 27 named bows aren't enough, i say that 7 named longswords aren't enough."

I was not saying this is a solution to what you were saying. I also wasn't saying that 27 named bows aren't enough. The crux of my point has very little to do with what we have now. It comes down to this. I like (and I'm sure many others do) to see new weapons to use for my character when new content comes out. It doesn't have to be every update, but I like to have new weapons to play with every so often. What I'm saying is this is easier to do for most builds, because most builds can use stuff out of their specialization fairly effectively. Or their specialization covers a number of weapon types.

For instance, barbarians spec'd for TH slashing can use great swords, great axes, and falchions as if they were the same thing, they don't lose a single thing to use any of those over another. Even going beyond that, they still get their class and PrE benefits if they go outside that, to say a maul or greatclub, all they lose there is a bit of crit range, while yes, its not so great, still leaves them effective. Said barbarians would never pick up a triple positive maul if it didn't. This applies the same way to pallies, rangers, rogues, etc. Monks, if they switch to anything outside a monk weapon, lose tons of stuff. If they switch to kamas, they attack slower and lose damage on offhand attacks. Switch to quarterstaff, and all those TWF feats do nothing. Staff acrobats already struggle to maintain competitive dps, if I were to put a maul or greatclub in their hand, their attacking much slower and losing their dex to SA damage. Something one handed or nonbludgeoning just loses more on top of that.

Back to the longswords and longbows in the game. What you're saying changes if there was 100 named longswords in the game, what I'm saying is not effected at all.

Building off my point that some builds require specific weapon types and that those weapons need to be released more often in new weapon batches so people playing these builds have a similar amount of options for new weapons that the more flexible builds do, these weapon types that are lacking in existing options only compounds the issue, in the case of what I listed, melee quarterstaffs and crossbows have this issue the most. Upon thinking on it, yes WSS builds and these divines also fall into the category of specific weapon need, but I don't think they lose as much as the ones I listed, WSS in particular.

A WSS build, built for WSS, using handwraps, generally loses imp. crit, +1 attack (maybe 2, maybe a 2-4 damage if a fighter build). However they gain, a 10% faster attack speed, half str mod to offhand, gain +2-+4 on attack (from losing TWF penalties but keeping the benefits), and can now use whatever special monk abilities they might have that they couldn't ordinarily lose. Quite frankly what they lose is compensated for mostly at the very least. That's also from experience with a solar phoenix build (used mabar wraps at times), the only real reason I kept using longswords was because I got 30% healing amp from one of my GS.

In anycase I'll agree that longswords should be put in this category I was describing, but I still think they are better off than the rest in the category as far as my options point goes).

I hope its a little more clear that I was not saying the solution to the lack of many named longswords was pick up a different weapon. I was saying that for these longswords set ups, there are other weapon types that can be considered an option for effective use (not necessarily better than if you had a longsword equivalent). For instance, said WSS build or divine LS user versus epic Velah. Using one of the calomel weapons would likely be a better choice than the current LS options. Granted, its not as good as say a calomel longsword would be for them, but its still better than other longswords they can use. Thus its still an new weapon option for you, people playing those builds might look and say, "Ya, I think I might make one of those." A staff acrobat on the other hand, sighs and gets no new weapon. The LS user may still decide to not make a calomel weapon, but it still remains a viable option for them if they choose to take it.

If I had to rate the weapons most effected by this, from most to least (in clumps):

Quarterstaff/bow/crossbow/handwraps
Shields

Longswords
Dwarven axe
Bastard sword

Scimitar
Shortsword
Greatsword

Khopesh
Finessable weapons

All the rest.

Note here, that doesn't reflect which types are in dire need of options. It reflects which types are needed to be made more going forward so that any given character has roughly equivalent set of new options as new stuff gets released.

herzkos
12-30-2011, 04:16 PM
i just want epic retribution . . . that is all.

Norean
12-30-2011, 04:30 PM
I have a very long sword. ;)

(I wish...)