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Keylon
12-25-2011, 02:21 PM
TWF, 0% Fortification, 0 Elemental Resists, no buffs at all, just pure weapon damage.

in4theride75
12-26-2011, 05:43 AM
Lightning 2 Kopesh - pos/air/air
1d10+5 = 14.175
Holy = 6.65
Electric Burst = 5.525
Electric Blast = 2.9
Lightning Strike = 8.6925
Total = 37.9425



eChimera's Fang - 3 sentinal marks
2d10+10 = 24.15
Shocking burst = 4.425
Disintigrate = 8.74 (2% proc rate used as it is an unverified %)
Total = 37.315


To note: eFang is a higher damage ratio as fort is increased.

Kinerd
12-26-2011, 04:48 PM
The khopesh will also gain 2 damage per 20 swings per damage bonus. Thus, if you had 30 Strength, the values against 0 fort would be...
Khopesh: 37.9425 + 10 * 27/20 = 51.4425
Fang: 37.315 + 10 * 25/20 = 49.815
Similar math would be required if you had damage bonus from feats, gear, enhancements, etc.

A further complication is Damage Boost, which would favor the Chimera's Fang below about 50 outside damage bonus and the Khopesh above.

Keylon
12-26-2011, 06:46 PM
Okay so lets make this math "easier"
STR: 42 (without buffs lets keep it at this level)
Damage Boosts:
+3 (Divine Favor)
+5 (Power Attack)
+2 (Shintao Monk Set)
+2 (Tinker's Set)
+2 (Kensai)
+1 (Fighter Weapon Specialization 1)
+4 (Weapon Specialization feats)
+ Paladin Divine Sacrifice 1 whatever the amount is I never figured out how to add it to dps.
+10% melee alacrity from tinker's gloves
BTW Kinerd you provided me with a dps calculation a while back I was wondering could you plz outline how you do ur dps calculations so I don't have to keep asking on the forum.

EDIT: my bad I meant fabricator's set I always get those two mixed up

pjstechie
12-27-2011, 02:34 AM
A higher damage modifier favors the kopesh (iirc the epic chimeras fang has a normal bastard sword crit range).

A kopesh gets 1.35*[Damage bonus] per swing while a bastard sword only gets 1.15*[Damage bonus]. A kopesh also gets .6*[Seeker] per swing whereas the bastard sword only gets .4*[Seeker]. This is true for all kopeshes (19-20/x3) and bastard swords (19-20/x2) that share the base crit profile.

Worthy of note: bastard swords do glancing blow damage when used with a shield improving its damage in a S&B situation.

I'm currently working on a blog on how to calculate weapon damage if you want a reference for how to do that. I warn you that I tend to be verbose and detailed though and it's still coming out: http://my.ddo.com/pjstechie/category/building-blocks/

in4theride75
12-27-2011, 03:14 AM
STR: 42 (without buffs lets keep it at this level)
Damage Boosts:
+3 (Divine Favor)
+5 (Power Attack)
+2 (Shintao Monk Set)
+2 (Tinker's Set)
+2 (Kensai)
+1 (Fighter Weapon Specialization 1)
+4 (Weapon Specialization feats)
+ Paladin Divine Sacrifice 1 whatever the amount is I never figured out how to add it to dps.
+10% melee alacrity from tinker's gloves

Lightning 2 Kopesh - pos/air/air
1d10+40 = 61.425 (main hand)
1d10+32 = 50.625 (off hand)
Holy = 6.65
Electric Burst = 5.525
Electric Blast = 2.9
Lightning Strike = 8.6925
Total = 85.1925 main, 74.3925 off
(+17.5/cool down for divine sac I)

Attack animations per minute; TWF @ 10% alacrity: 97
Attacks per animation:1.8
Attacks per second: 1.617 main, 1.293 off, 2.91 total
DPS (excluding divine sac I): 137.756 main, 96.1895 off, 233.9455 total.


eChimera's Fang - 3 sentinal marks
2d10+45 = 64.4 (main hand)
2d10+37 = 54.4 (off hand)
Shocking burst = 4.425
Disintigrate = 8.74 (2% proc rate used as it is an unverified %)
Total = 77.565 main, 67.565 off
(+17.5/cool down for divine sac I)

Attack animations per minute; TWF @ 10% alacrity: 97
Attacks per animation:1.8
Attacks per second: 1.617 main, 1.293 off, 2.91 total
DPS (excluding divine sac I): 125.423 main, 87.362 off, 212.785 total.

Kinerd
12-27-2011, 07:18 PM
BTW Kinerd you provided me with a dps calculation a while back I was wondering could you plz outline how you do ur dps calculations so I don't have to keep asking on the forum.Sure! The very short version is:


damage * swings = damage
swing second secondFirst we'll do the equation with normal attacks, which is to say without Divine Sacrifice. I've found the easiest way to do damage/swing is to just go down the possible attack rolls.

1 - Always a miss.
2 - Potentially a hit. Usually it is assumed that your to-hit is high enough to trivialize the opponent's AC. Between your divine buffs and Kensei, I would guess your to-hit is pretty good. For completeness' sake, however, we'll do an example where you don't. As a TWFer, you get four animations in your attack cycle. The third and fourth animation are made at +5 and +10 BAB. Missing also matters in critical confirmation, which we'll get to shortly.
3, 4, ... up to just below your critical threat - Same as 2.
Between your critical threat and 20 - Potentially a critical hit. This is where you make your critical confirmation roll, and also where you check against fortification, if any.

Example case: you hit on a 4.
1 - miss
2 through 4 - miss on 1st and 2nd animations, hit on 3rd and 4th animations
5 through 16 - hit on all animations
17 through 20 - possible critical hit on 1st and 2nd animations, critical hit on 3rd and 4th animations. To determine whether you actually get a critical hit on the first two animations, we roll another to-hit roll that takes into account the +2 bonus you get from Kensei and the +2 bonus you get from Critical Accuracy. Between the two, you will confirm every critical hit.
In sum:
3 * 50% hits, 12 hits, 4 crits

Now that we have determined when you hit and when you don't, we calculate what sort of damage you do on a hit. Your main hand gets full Strength bonus, so whatever weapon you use will get a total of 16+3+5+2+2+2+1+4 = 35 bonus damage. You also have +2 to critical damage bonus from Kensei. In the specific case of a Lightning 2 khopesh, you have:
1d10 base dice
5 enhancement bonus to damage
2d6 Holy on-hit
1d6 Shocking Burst on-hit
2 Kensei bonus to damage on-crit
2d10 Shocking Burst on-crit
2d10 Shocking Blast on-crit
4d6 Shocking Blast on-20
1.5% chance of 610 Lightning Strike on-hit

In sum, each hit has:
35 + 5.5 + 5 damage, 7 Holy, 3.5 Shocking Burst, 9.15 Lightning Strike
Each crit has:
(35 + 5.5 + 5 + 2) * 3, 7 Holy, 3.5 Shocking Burst, 11 Shocking Burst, 11 Shocking Blast, 9.15 Lightning Strike
And 20 has an additional:
14 Shocking Blast

We had 13.5 hits and 4 crits, so we have:
13.5 * (35 + 5.5 + 5 + 7 + 3.5 + 9.15)
+ 4 * ((35 + 5.5 + 5 + 2) * 3 + 7 + 3.5 + 11 + 11 + 9.15)
+ 14
=
1630.215 damage over 20 main hand swings

To get damage per main hand swing, we just divide by 20 and get:
81.50625 damage per main hand swing

.

Now we just need swings per second and we're done with normal swings. Consulting Vanshilar's tables (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144), our entry for TWF and 10% alacrity is 97.0 animations per minute. The main hand gets 1 swing per animation, so our main hand swings per second is 1.617. Multiply the two and we have 131.8 main hand DPS. Note that this is lower than in4theride75's calculated value, because we declared that you missed on a few rolls. Note also how small an overall effect these misses caused: a loss of only about 5%.

You do the same thing with off hand swings. The only differences are that you only get half Strength bonus, so your bonus damage is only 27, and you only get .8 swings per animation.

.

We can apply the same process to Divine Sacrifice. The added damage is 5d6 light damage on-hit and +1 critical multiplier, so we have:

1 - miss
2 through 4 - miss on 1st and 2nd animations, 5d6 on 3rd and 4th animations
5 through 16 - 5d6 on all animations
17 through 20 - 5d6 on all animations, +1 multiplier on all animations

In total:
3 * 50% * 17.5 + 12 * 17.5 + 4 * (17.5 + 35 + 5.5 + 5 + 2)
= 496.25 damage per 20 swings
= 24.8125 damage per swing

Now, for swings per second, we know that the cooldown to Divine Sacrifice is 3 seconds. If you spam it as soon as it goes off cooldown, you therefore get 1/3 of a swing per second, so our DPS contribution from Divine Sacrifice on the main hand is:
24.8125 / 3 = 8.3 DPS
Or about a 6% increase to main hand DPS.

.

That's really all you need to calculate whatever DPS you'd like. Every melee uses a d20 attack roll, every melee multiplies damage on confirmed critical hits, every melee gets a certain number of attacks per second, and so on.

elraido
12-28-2011, 09:07 AM
Did you people forget maiming on the efang?

Thrudh
12-28-2011, 09:30 AM
Note the Fang has +5 extra to-hit AND destruction. If to-hit is an issue at all, the Fang is clearly superior.

And how much extra DPS does the decrease to fort from destruction give you?

Plus you can slot good on a Fang, and it will break devil DR which a Lit II khopesh will not (unless you have an artificer in the group)

And also, it has incite bonuses for hate tanking which the Lit II does not.

Edit: AND the Fang has Superior Parrying (which gives +4 Insight bonus to AC AND +4 Insight bonus to saves). Maybe the Lit II comparison should be with a Lit II that has Insight +4 in it's Tier III slot.

in4theride75
12-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Did you people forget maiming on the efang?

Maiming is on the non-epic version replaced by disin on the epic version.


Note the Fang has +5 extra to-hit AND destruction. If to-hit is an issue at all, the Fang is clearly superior.

And how much extra DPS does the decrease to fort from destruction give you?

Plus you can slot good on a Fang, and it will break devil DR which a Lit II khopesh will not (unless you have an artificer in the group)

And also, it has incite bonuses for hate tanking which the Lit II does not.

Edit: AND the Fang has Superior Parrying (which gives +4 Insight bonus to AC AND +4 Insight bonus to saves). Maybe the Lit II comparison should be with a Lit II that has Insight +4 in it's Tier III slot.

The original question was from a pure DPS standpoint, which lit II khop is superior. Doesn't mean a lit II khop is the superior weapon over all though. If I had the choice between the two I'd take eFang in off hand and lit II in main hand on a Fighter.

Thrudh
12-28-2011, 10:33 AM
The original question was from a pure DPS standpoint, which lit II khop is superior. Doesn't mean a lit II khop is the superior weapon over all though. If I had the choice between the two I'd take eFang in off hand and lit II in main hand on a Fighter.

Well, never missing (if relevant) relates to DPS. Lowering fort relates to DPS. Breaking DR relates to DPS. If you want that +4 to AC, the Lit II will have less DPS.

But I agree with you... Lit II/Fang combo is very nice.