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View Full Version : Remove need for deathblock



Urist
12-22-2011, 08:14 AM
1. No mid/high-level character will so much as go to the toilet without a deathblock item.
2. Wearing a deathblock item completely negates any effect which can be deathblock'ed.

So what is the point in such spells and effects existing in mobs' repertoires?
AFAICT, the only people such spells will ever have any effect on are new players who don't know what to expect. That smacks of elitism, and isn't a very pleasant thing to have in a game.

So just stop mobs casting deathblock'able spells. They won't work anyway.

Anecdote
My first time running normal... Taming the Flames, IIRC, I got to the boss-dude fairly easily (resist pots) and... instant death. Even though I knew about deathblock and instant-death effects, my reaction was one of confusion. There were no enemies near me, no incoming projectiles, just... dead.

Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.

MRMechMan
12-22-2011, 08:16 AM
Does your toilet finger you? :eek:

gloopygloop
12-22-2011, 08:24 AM
1. No mid/high-level character will so much as go to the toilet without a deathblock item.
2. Wearing a deathblock item completely negates any effect which can be deathblock'ed.

So what is the point in such spells and effects existing in mobs' repertoires?
AFAICT, the only people such spells will ever have any effect on are new players who don't know what to expect. That smacks of elitism, and isn't a very pleasant thing to have in a game.

So just stop mobs casting deathblock'able spells. They won't work anyway.

Anecdote
My first time running normal... Taming the Flames, IIRC, I got to the boss-dude fairly easily (resist pots) and... instant death. Even though I knew about deathblock and instant-death effects, my reaction was one of confusion. There were no enemies near me, no incoming projectiles, just... dead.

Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.

I think that just being in a quest is timely and adequate warning that there will be enemies trying to kill you and that some of them may be spellcasters. In fact, if you read the dialog from the questgiver and the helpful guy inside the quest, you'll see that the end boss is a spellcaster.

That's a good indication that Deathward or Deathblock would be good for that end fight.

Also, A few of my characters don't run with Deathblock 24/7 just because their gear slots don't support it. I only tend to run with Deathblock on my Silver Flame necklace when there are Beholders around.

BurnerD
12-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Most (if not all) instant death effects have a save associated with them. Fail a save and have no deathblock? sorry, death should be the result.

The game does not need to be made easier... period.

It is not elitism to have to understand the rules and prepare for in-game challenges by gearing yourself appropriately. What do you lose if you learn this lesson the hard way? 20 minutes of your time and a trip to the bar to repair. Some games actually punish you for dying. This one doesn't.

so not signed.

Fejj
12-22-2011, 08:32 AM
While we are at it, remove all critical hits as well. Only new players won't have heavy fort, so it is not fair.

Simplesimon1979
12-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Sorry not signed

Instead let the mobs cast Mordenkain's Disjunction.

voodoogroves
12-22-2011, 09:07 AM
Some people don't slot deathblock constantly.

Some do.

The only change I'd make is more random mobs trying to outright kill you. In epics some chunk of the melee mobs should be swinging vorpals, for instance ... not all of them, but enough that you have to think about it ... like wandering into one of the beholders early on. Do you put on your deathblock in Tempest Spine, or risk the mockingthat comes from be instakilled? Do you wear it in Hound ... or not and get PK'd randomly?

grodon9999
12-22-2011, 09:18 AM
In his first life my ranger was doing elite "Church and the Cult" and I got fingered by a priest. Reminded me of the time in band-camp . . .

Dandonk
12-22-2011, 09:18 AM
I do not run around with DB on in general. I'll DW myself, or use DB item when I find it necessary - but I only have a DB item on around 10% of the time, or even less.

Postumus
12-22-2011, 09:23 AM
Does your toilet finger you? :eek:

Must be one of those electronic Japanese toilets.

Tholar
12-22-2011, 09:31 AM
Does your toilet finger you? :eek:

I am never ever ever going to use that toilet.


Keep the deathblock-able spells, makes for a fun time when you forget.

voodoogroves
12-22-2011, 09:32 AM
In his first life my ranger was doing elite "Church and the Cult" and I got fingered by a priest. Reminded me of the time in band-camp . . .

Heh ... a finger to the bigjunk ... god I'm a juvenile

Doxmaster
12-22-2011, 09:33 AM
No.

smatt
12-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.


I digress.. They are indeed fun.... Your sudden and unforseen death was fun for me :D

Really though, such things do ADD to the game.. Be prepared...... It keeps people on their toes :)

Chai
12-22-2011, 09:42 AM
There are tons and tons of MMOs in the industry where the only way to kill a mob is to reduce its HP to lower than zero.

This one aint it.

Llewndyn
12-22-2011, 09:43 AM
Does your toilet finger you? :eek:

+1 You made me snot coffee....Excellent

Uska
12-22-2011, 09:43 AM
I digress.. They are indeed fun.... Your sudden and unforseen death was fun for me :D

Really though, such things do ADD to the game.. Be prepared...... It keeps people on their toes :)

I agree this isnt 4E there be a chance to die:D

Urist
12-22-2011, 09:47 AM
I think that just being in a quest is timely and adequate warning that there will be enemies trying to kill you and that some of them may be spellcasters. In fact, if you read the dialog from the questgiver and the helpful guy inside the quest, you'll see that the end boss is a spellcaster.

That's a good indication that Deathward or Deathblock would be good for that end fight.
Is it? Just about every quest up to that point has spellcasters. Yet not a one can instant-kill you. This is an example of just what I mentioned; affecting only new players who don't know what to expect.
How common are deathblock items at level 7, anyway? I certainly don't remember looting any. :/


The game does not need to be made easier... period.
This isn't about making it easier. It's about making it less frustrating for a new player.


While we are at it, remove all critical hits as well. Only new players won't have heavy fort, so it is not fair.
If critical hits always killed instantly however many HP a player had, then I'd agree with you.


I do not run around with DB on in general. I'll DW myself, or use DB item when I find it necessary - but I only have a DB item on around 10% of the time, or even less.
I guess this is because you know in advance exactly when it will be needed..?


I digress.. They are indeed fun.... Your sudden and unforseen death was fun for me :D

Really though, such things do ADD to the game.. Be prepared...... It keeps people on their toes :)
One cannot prepare for the unforseen. That's what makes it unforseen. :P

redspecter23
12-22-2011, 09:50 AM
Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.

Wizards of the Coast seemed to agree when they released 4th edition. The truth is that a 5% chance of instant death isn't exactly fun. That's why we have effects to block it so if we are worried about it, we can make it a non issue. It's the same reason that ToD has boots. %5 will still happen often enough to be extremely frustrating.

One could argue that perhaps 100% resistance to any particular effect is equally as unfun as 95% resistance. I don't think it's quite as easy as you suggest, at least at endgame, to always have deathblock on all your characters. Gearslots can be very tight and deathblock is often a "swap in" effect. Many of my characters use the neck slot for this purpose. My melee would rather have the Shintao necklace, but in situations where deathward isn't available or will be dispelled routinely, then the necklace gets swapped in. It's a choice. More DPS or more survivability. Choices make the game more interesting in my opinion. In addition you also do have the choice to avoid deathblock altogether and take your chances or there will also be situations where you just plain forget. These are the reasons why high level mobs still try to cast the spell. If the devs really wanted the mobs to act "realistically" they would just send in a few waves of high hp intimdators to distract us, then have a line of casters cast disjunction and instadeath on us until we dropped, but who would want that?

9Crows
12-22-2011, 09:53 AM
Is it? Just about every quest up to that point has spellcasters. Yet not a one can instant-kill you. This is an example of just what I mentioned; affecting only new players who don't know what to expect.
How common are deathblock items at level 7, anyway? I certainly don't remember looting any. :/




lvl 5 quests on elite casters pk.can get death ward clickie from tangleroot min lvl 5. .. insta death makes things more interesting . saw a guy get banished/killed yesterday in lord of eyes first time ide seen that, was fun :)

Dandonk
12-22-2011, 09:54 AM
I guess this is because you know in advance exactly when it will be needed..?

Sometimes yes, other times I forget and have to make the save. Or die.

I like the element of risk, I must admit.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-22-2011, 09:58 AM
Soloing: it's like walking on a tight rope without a net. :cool:

voodoogroves
12-22-2011, 12:00 PM
Remember the gear-slot opportunity cost of carrying Deathblock. There is a cost, and that's good.

I don't tend to equip it constantly on all my characters but I do definitely have a swap in option. For some like my rogue (who due to timing has GFL in the neck and shroud HP on the cloak - competing with the silver flame neckie and mabar cloak for deathblock) it can be a true challenge to optimally gear ... but it is important, and that cost isn't zero.

What you're asking for is the cost to be zero and an entire mechanic removed from the game.

Cauthey
12-22-2011, 12:19 PM
Insta-kills are awesome. They make things spicy.

/not signed.

BurnerD
12-22-2011, 12:31 PM
..


Is it? Just about every quest up to that point has spellcasters. Yet not a one can instant-kill you. This is an example of just what I mentioned; affecting only new players who don't know what to expect.
How common are deathblock items at level 7, anyway? I certainly don't remember looting any. :/


This isn't about making it easier. It's about making it less frustrating for a new player.

It is about making it easier. We were all new once. We all had to figure out how to improve our chances of survival. Personally I prefer this game because it isn't just a hack and slash walk through. If dying in a quest and then having to figure out how to improve to avoid that is "too frustrating" for a new player they may not be cut out for this game. One of the things that made D&D great as a game all these years was the element of the unknown and unexpected, although a character death hurt a heck of a lot more in PnP.

So if you remove the need for deathblock do you do the same for the monsters too? the casters are going to love you for that.....

I get your point, but could not disagree more. Maybe better education for new players is needed, but don't remove the challenge. Let's remove saves while we are at it... sigh


If critical hits always killed instantly however many HP a player had, then I'd agree with you.


I guess this is because you know in advance exactly when it will be needed..?


One cannot prepare for the unforseen. That's what makes it unforseen. :P

Enoach
12-22-2011, 12:35 PM
The need for Deathblock should not be removed.

Wizards get their first taste of Insta-Death potential at level 7 through the Double Will/Fort save Phantasmal Killer (PK). Running a Level 10+ Quest you should expect if we can do so can they. However, there are two sure fire ways to be immune to PK - having deathblock/deathward or being immune to fear effects.

I do realize that two of the easier to acquire items that grant this are both p2p quest lines - Tangleroot End Reward Goggles of the Fleshrender Guard (single clickie of Deathward) and Necropolis Blood Series gets your started on creating a trinket that has deathblock and starting 1 charge of Negative Energy absorption (negative level etc. blocking) per rest Goes up to 10 charges once you complete the 3rd Tomb Series.

gloopygloop
12-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Is it? Just about every quest up to that point has spellcasters. Yet not a one can instant-kill you. This is an example of just what I mentioned; affecting only new players who don't know what to expect.

So?

I died after completion on my first time in Delera's part 1 when all the ghoustly skeletons pour out and surprise you. That was awesome.

I died in the surprise at the end of Mired in Kobolds. That was even more awesome.

I've died inside quests lots of times. Either you figure out a way to get the completion after that death or the party wipes and you don't get your completion and you try it again. It's not a big deal.

When you can come back to life for free and try again with no penalty, why is it a big deal that you died?


How common are deathblock items at level 7, anyway? I certainly don't remember looting any. :/

Visor of the Flesh Render Guards. Absolutely key item for any character that can't cast Death Ward themselves and it's ML 5. Also, Silver Flame necklace, ML 5 and guaranteed at the end of Bloody Crypt.



One cannot prepare for the unforseen. That's what makes it unforseen. :P

And then you know about it the next time. Quests that you've never run before are hard for a new player to run at level. That's not a bad thing. It's one of the best parts of the game.

rdasca
12-22-2011, 01:15 PM
1. No mid/high-level character will so much as go to the toilet without a deathblock item.
2. Wearing a deathblock item completely negates any effect which can be deathblock'ed.

So what is the point in such spells and effects existing in mobs' repertoires?
AFAICT, the only people such spells will ever have any effect on are new players who don't know what to expect. That smacks of elitism, and isn't a very pleasant thing to have in a game.

So just stop mobs casting deathblock'able spells. They won't work anyway.

Anecdote
My first time running normal... Taming the Flames, IIRC, I got to the boss-dude fairly easily (resist pots) and... instant death. Even though I knew about deathblock and instant-death effects, my reaction was one of confusion. There were no enemies near me, no incoming projectiles, just... dead.

Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.

OMG ... I thought this was a joke, kind of tongue in cheek, then I read the rest of the thread ..... Dude, wow, I am not even sure how to put this, let's try this:

This is not Farmville or My Little Pony land!

What's next? Make those bad guys stop hitting you with pointy objects?

Oh and just in case you had not got it before now - /NOT SIGNED!!!

MRMechMan
12-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Sacred helm is ML 7 deathblock item.
Crafted items have ML 5 I think.

None of which a new player will probably have. In a normal level 7 quest instakills are a bit over the top.

But your suggestion to simply remove instakills from ALL monsters repetoires is even more so.

EddieB_TBC
12-22-2011, 01:24 PM
How does the saying go, knowing is half the battle? Well now you know. Wait until you discover mummies, beholders, certain naughty priests, vampires, and some of the extraplanar stuff later. Why would you need to easy button this and prevent anybody else from "learning?" What is really fun is when you actually know all this and get slain because you forgot to put your item on. Warm fuzzies for all those lucky enough to hear the tirade in party chat when that goes down. ;)

davidolson22
12-22-2011, 01:25 PM
he he, try doing the giant hold walkups with only deathblock on.

Zap

"Ouch--I just lost 4 levels"

Zap

"Argh--3 more! I can't hit anything now!"

Zap

ZAp

"Oh, I'm dead. Who was it that thought death block fixed everything again?"

Diyon
12-22-2011, 01:59 PM
lvl 5 quests on elite casters pk.can get death ward clickie from tangleroot min lvl 5. .. insta death makes things more interesting . saw a guy get banished/killed yesterday in lord of eyes first time ide seen that, was fun :)

You can be banished in Lord of Eyes? Maybe you mean Lord of Stone? (that would make sense there) If so, I wonder if boots of anchoring stop that...

Ethiel
12-22-2011, 03:13 PM
How big was the finger, Oak? http://www.ddovault.com/Images/Smoak.png

bigolbear
12-22-2011, 04:21 PM
the effect of highlvl enemies carrying these spells is to MAKE ALL PLAYERS USE A SLOT UP. its realy that simple, every defensive gear is one less offensive or one other handy ability your not slotting.

Wouldnt mind seeing sunder and disjunction damageing items tho - or atleast temporarily disabling them.

flynnjsw
12-22-2011, 04:38 PM
How big was the finger, Oak? http://www.ddovault.com/Images/Smoak.png


Quoted for posterity.


And /notsigned

KillEveryone
12-22-2011, 05:00 PM
/not signed

You either need to slot it for those times that you will need it or you have to make the save.

I've forgotten it and I've died.

I'll forget it again sometime and I'll save or die.

Not everyone can slot one in their gear set up and still have everything they want. They have to make that choice.

fuzzy1guy
12-22-2011, 05:09 PM
/not signed

I don't keep death block equipped normally. Unless i know theres something comming up that might instantkill me.

And then the silver flame necklace is there. I just have to equip it.

I still forget sometimes and run in to get fingered. (without even dinner first)

umeannothing
12-22-2011, 05:18 PM
1. No mid/high-level character will so much as go to the toilet without a deathblock item.
2. Wearing a deathblock item completely negates any effect which can be deathblock'ed.

So what is the point in such spells and effects existing in mobs' repertoires?
AFAICT, the only people such spells will ever have any effect on are new players who don't know what to expect. That smacks of elitism, and isn't a very pleasant thing to have in a game.

So just stop mobs casting deathblock'able spells. They won't work anyway.

Anecdote
My first time running normal... Taming the Flames, IIRC, I got to the boss-dude fairly easily (resist pots) and... instant death. Even though I knew about deathblock and instant-death effects, my reaction was one of confusion. There were no enemies near me, no incoming projectiles, just... dead.

Single dice-roll instant death effects are not fun. The only time a player character should be in danger of death is after timely and adequate warning.


Sorry, but I side with the other posters.

You said you knew about deathblock, and from your post it is kind of apparent you didn't REALLY know about deathblock. You got a real quick lesson in it, and I am willing to bet that you now have a deathblock item.

I learned the same way about deathblock in Invaders! My first time in it, after I died, I went immediately to the AH and picked up the cheapest deathblock item I saw and then went and finished the quest.

There is no reason to remove negative/death spells from the game when you are given the means, the motive, and the warning to negate it.

Chai
12-22-2011, 05:24 PM
he he, try doing the giant hold walkups with only deathblock on.

Zap

"Ouch--I just lost 4 levels"

Zap

"Argh--3 more! I can't hit anything now!"

Zap

ZAp

"Oh, I'm dead. Who was it that thought death block fixed everything again?"

If you stand in the leaky for a while on a good day its like being in a disco, as people die and appear in that tavern frequently.

Beew boouuuw BEEEEW peeeew boooeeeew.

Ganolyn
12-22-2011, 05:34 PM
In his first life my ranger was doing elite "Church and the Cult" and I got fingered by a priest.


This statement is just wrong on so many levels...

pSINNa
12-22-2011, 05:44 PM
/not signed

Leave this mechanic alone please, get used to having to swap out when you know you need it, or lose a slot permanently for your immunity.

azrael4h
12-22-2011, 06:34 PM
Quite frankly, we need to increase the need for Deathblock/Ward. More mobs casting PK! More mobs giving us the finger! Someone who casts a spell which instant-kills all Halflings! A raid in which we genocide the last of the Dragonborn!

freekay
12-22-2011, 07:00 PM
I agree with the OP and several other posters in this thread.

Deathblock items smack of elitism. No more instakill spells please.
Heavy fort items are hard to acquire. No more crits please.
No newbie would know about CON or GFL items. No more mob damage please.
Newbies shouldn't have to ever fail quests because it lowers self esteem. Hello Kitty Island please.

<_<

RobbinB
12-22-2011, 07:27 PM
..I wasn't the first responder to this post.

You see I completely misread what the op was trying to say. I thought the op was making a point about how stupid it is to have an effect in the game and then have an item/spell/whatever that can block that effect 100% of the time.

Heavy fort blocking all critical hits is a a parallel example, and other thoughtful posters have asked for some change to the system because it seems kind of pointless.

Neutralize poison stopping any chance of poisoning and "blanket immunities aren't fun" fall into the same reasoning patterns.

The big problem in DDO is that we get to run quests to the power of n, so we ultimately know exactly when to put on whichever item is needed, so having these items grant immunity to an effect is problematic.

But I stand corrected. I thought the op was pointing out a problem in the game design. When in fact apparently he was just whining because he died once and didn't like it. Yep, he's just looking for an easy button.

Psiandron
12-22-2011, 07:46 PM
Sometimes I forget to throw on deathblock and occassionally I fail my save. Oh well. Generally not a big deal to slot an item, or take a little risk. Its not like anyone's getting death magic thrown at them on Korthos. So /notsigned.


In his first life my ranger was doing elite "Church and the Cult" and I got fingered by a priest. Reminded me of the time in band-camp . . .

:confused: So you're saying that you were an alterboy when you grew up in Boston?

Doomcrew
12-22-2011, 08:05 PM
I assume this to mean the OP would like all insta-death effects removed
from the game? PC as well as NPC/mob?

You sure this is what you want?, or is it just the in-coming insta-kills?

Please clarify.

Deathlos
12-22-2011, 08:31 PM
I agree with the OP and several other posters in this thread.

Deathblock items smack of elitism. No more instakill spells please.
Heavy fort items are hard to acquire. No more crits please.
No newbie would know about CON or GFL items. No more mob damage please.
Newbies shouldn't have to ever fail quests because it lowers self esteem. Hello Kitty Island please.

<_<

I would have to agree with this guy and the OP! but they also forgot one thing!

Remove all Traps!!!! i mean only elitist pricks know which quests have traps in them, and we shouldnt have to spend hours waiting for a rogue For every quest! I mean most traps on elite Are instatkills to a well built Barb!

End the Insanity!

/signed signed and signed agin!

MRH
12-22-2011, 09:15 PM
/not signed !

there are some games I hear about on Facebook you can play without gettin fingered....

leave deathblock as is




http://50cals.99k.org/oe.jpg

nolaureltree000
12-22-2011, 11:12 PM
he he, try doing the giant hold walkups with only deathblock on.

Zap

"Ouch--I just lost 4 levels"

Zap

"Argh--3 more! I can't hit anything now!"

Zap

ZAp

"Oh, I'm dead. Who was it that thought death block fixed everything again?"

see, your problem is that you arent WF, the master race.

CheeseMilk
12-23-2011, 12:22 AM
Forgetting to have a deathblock item on in a great way to be humbled when you're soloing a tower in Wiz King and you are made suddenly dead by a simple Mummy.

Not that that just happened to my Sorc, or anything.

davidolson22
12-23-2011, 01:30 AM
see, your problem is that you arent WF, the master race.

Argh, I'm such a noob.

Templarion
12-23-2011, 01:42 AM
I can see OP's point here. It is valid. The same goes with Poison Proof, Disease Immunity and Heavy Fortification. Any kind of immunity is plain boring (just like many complain high lvl ship resists used on low levels).

Maybe the items should have somekind of charges in them. Much like Silver Flame Amulet or Beholder Optic Nerves. After there are no charges left, the item doesn't block the effect it should. However, redoing this stuff would require quite much work. It's not going to happen but I understand OP's thoughts.

Good suggestion!



EDIT: Whoa! Over 1000 posts. I spend far too much time here. :)

azrael4h
12-23-2011, 02:51 AM
Forgetting to have a deathblock item on in a great way to be humbled when you're soloing a tower in Wiz King and you are made suddenly dead by a simple Mummy.

Not that that just happened to my Sorc, or anything.

Been there. :P At least I was soloing it on my Exploiter when that happened, not in a group.