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Sajon_Ra
12-15-2011, 10:48 AM
When looking @ solo builds I noticed that many players do not spend points 4 Dex, I was wondering why? I enjoy soloing a quest and time is limited with a new addition :-) I have played pre 3e PnP and have an understanding of how stats work or I thought I did.

I have 4 toon right now a Fighter-7lvl, Ranger-4lvl, Cleric-5lvl and a Wizard-5lvl. All of my toons have a 14 or higher in the Dex stat to get a AC bonus. I struggle to solo quest that I think should be no problem, i.e I am usually 1-2 lvl higher than the quest, so I am doing something wrong. I am starting to rethink my toons here @ work and was wondering is AC is not the same in DDO .

Take the Wiz toon, I have seen build with 8-10 in dex and that is a good build for soloing? My wiz is getting zapped all the time, he may retire in the tavern and drink up what money is left. LOL

Any input on this would be great, so I have the knowledge.

Thanks

P.S I am using Mage Armor, Sheid ect...

somenewnoob
12-15-2011, 10:50 AM
Well, at the end of the game unless you specifically build for it, it is very difficult to get meaningful AC on most builds.

I wear epic cavalry fullplate, have 17 base dex, +6 dex item, and even with +5 protection, I will get hit 19 times out of 20.

So it's not worth investing much into it unless the build calls for it.

There are certain builds that benefot from dex, but for the most part it is usually dumped.

Adrian99
12-15-2011, 10:54 AM
The builds as they are posted are usually the capped build, not necessarily the leveling build. I will typically have DEX as my highest or one of my highest stats, then when AC becomes useless I LR and put the points to better use. I imagine that I'm not the only one who does this.

somenewnoob
12-15-2011, 10:56 AM
The builds as they are posted are usually the capped build, not necessarily the leveling build. I will typically have DEX as my highest or one of my highest stats, then when AC becomes useless I LR and put the points to better use. I imagine that I'm not the only one who does this.

That's not a bad idea. AC is great at the beginning fo the game and lower mid levels.

OP If you go that way keep in mind you will need to get a heart of wood to LR. Not always cheap or easy to find.

I think around gianthold ish.....that's when your AC is going to start ot be less effective.

grodon9999
12-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Even my AC builds only start with 15 DEX, ain't much point in starting with more.

Zenako
12-15-2011, 11:01 AM
If in the game world, avoiding damage mattered then you would see more go for it. Right now, most players have enough platinum on hand to buy as many potions or hireling healbots as they ever want and as long as they can survive any given battle, they can simply heal up afterwards. I can assure you that in the early days of the game, resources were harder to come by and people care a lot more about AC. (Also the level cap was 10 and then 12 for some time, and anyone who has looked at the combat tables can tell you that good and effective AC is very possible in those levels. It is only at the end game where AC becomes an elusive holy grail that only the most devout questers for it will succeed.)

We used to make special efforts to have the person with the best haggle get all buffed up to buy stacks of potions, scrolls and wands for the entire guild, in order to save what were then, large stacks of gold. That cost is no longer a concern for most.

countfitz
12-15-2011, 11:29 AM
A +6 item and +2 tome will be enough dex to fill out the best AC armor, and anyone else doesn't need AC anyway, so there's that.

voodoogroves
12-15-2011, 11:47 AM
The two biggest reasons for DEX in PNP are initiative and AC, particularly touch AC (rays, etc.) Both of those are replaced by keyboard skills in DDO.

It has other value (general AC, reflex saves) but those are largely marginalized. As an attribute it's primary use in most builds is simply feat qualification.



DEX could use a bit of a boost.

ArcaneMelee
12-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Op, at the levels you are currently at, AC is still very useful. However, AC is more than just Dex (as you noticed with the Mage Armor and Shield)... you do need to devote some attention to it besides just Dex.

10 Base
3 Dex (14 + 2 item)
4 Armor (Mage Armor)
4 Shield (Shield)
21

3 Deflection (Shield of Faith pots or a +3 Protection item)
3 Natural (Barkskin pots)
1 Haste
1 Insight (Parry weapon)
29

Defensive Fighting can give you another 2, but is such a pain to keep toggling on when on a caster, or dealing with the to-hit penalty on a melee that I don't bother with it.

The pots can be expensive since I presume you don't have a rich high level toon feeding money down to your lowbies. Save 'em for the big nasty fights. You can get both of these effects (deflection and natural armor) on items, but I don't recall the minimum levels for each.

Postumus
12-15-2011, 12:11 PM
The builds as they are posted are usually the capped build, not necessarily the leveling build. I will typically have DEX as my highest or one of my highest stats, then when AC becomes useless I LR and put the points to better use. I imagine that I'm not the only one who does this.

You know, that is a good idea. I've never really thought about LRing at a certain point, but it seems like a good strategy.

This adds another layer of complexity to my builds. I like it. :)

Talon_Moonshadow
12-15-2011, 12:37 PM
At some point in the game, having a useful AC is extremely difficult to get. So most players ignore AC.

People tend to build for what they think they want as an end game build.

Dex gives:

Bonus to AC
Bonus to Ref save
to hit with ranged weapons
to hit with finesse weapons.
bonus to dex based skills.


* Ref save is the most important save in the game! All of those people who ignore Dex really do suffer from this one.
Many on the forums claim they can get a good enough Ref save with equipment.
Or claim that those few point in Dex make little difference.

The later is true of many classes though... If your class is weak in Ref save, at end game those few points from Dex will not really help.

In fact, I have been frustrated with failed Ref save from any character that did not max Dex.
So honestly..... they all may be right, and Dex on a non-Dex-maxed build may be pointless for Ref save.........eventually.

* Ranged weapons..... are generally thought to be next to useless by the masses.
And once again, they are partially right.

If you are not a ranged specced build in ths game, your ability to use a ranged weapon to kill anything at higher lvls, is very weak. No matter what your Dex is.

But....there are exceptions... and Dex-dumpers "do" suffer when they do try to range for some reason.

* Finesse weapons.
Do generally less damage.
There are a few classes/races that Dex based finesse builds make a certain amount of sense, but a Str based build using the same weapons...and using the plethora of Str increasing gear/buffs etc. available in the game, almost always does more damage than a finesse guy.... plus saves a feat by not having to take Wep Finesse feat.
(but.....I still maintain that a Dex based Drow Assasin Rogue is awesome!)

*Dex based skills..
I've saved for last.

Open Locks- sledom has to be high at all to be useful in the current game. A couple at-lvl exceptions, but hardly worth the investment.

Balance- nice. But I have not seen enough evidence that a high balance is actually "that" beneficial to justify the investment.

Tumble- I personally have not found it very useful. But it does look cool to have a high tumble! And very nice to have in the Reaver raid.
I wouldn't build for it though.

I think only Hide and Move Silently are left.

I love stealth!
I love a shadow mage!
If you like soloing, you really might enjoy having high stealth skills.

Most players argue that people rush through dungeons so no chance to use stealth.
----they are wrong!
But.... most of the zerge stealth tricks I know do not actually require any investment in Hide/MS to pull off.

In fact, with the right gear, you do not need "any" Hide/MS skill to sneak through many dungeons.
But that gear has a high minimum lvl.... and you won't be sneaking through Stealthy Repossesion at lvl without a decent Hide/MS score.



Anyway. Long story short. Many players see no major benefit to their own preferred playstyle from investing in Dex.

Except (I almost forgot) to qualify for Greater Two Weapon Fighting Feat. Or rarely Improved Precise Shot. (like on an Artificer or Mechanic Rogue)





(I usually put 6 build points into Dex. But I also make stealth capable toons and prefer Rgrs)

voodoogroves
12-15-2011, 12:51 PM
* Ref save is the most important save in the game! All of those people who ignore Dex really do suffer from this one.


True for DDO, but for a PNP player this is flip-flopped - reflex is the least important PNP save. Fail a reflex save, you take some damage ... fail a will or fort save, you're dead or losing actions (which is just about as bad ... it's like the nails going in the coffin).

Buffs last longer in DDO, so we can all have FOM/Deathward/Deathblock/etc. to prevent many of these.

zex95966
12-15-2011, 02:13 PM
don't bother with AC especially on something like a wizard.
AC is worthless past lvl 10-ish, and meaningful at low levels with a heavy investment in it.

oh there are some crazies that try to build AC for end-game content as well, but they are invariably sacrificing damage for it.
Reflex save is nice but there are usually better ways to get it.
TWF needs high dex - and usually twf's have evasion so it's a nice combo.

anyways invest all that dex into constitution, and you will do better off as a general rule.

Postumus
12-15-2011, 02:31 PM
When looking @ solo builds I noticed that many players do not spend points 4 Dex, I was wondering why? I enjoy soloing a quest and time is limited with a new addition :-) I have played pre 3e PnP and have an understanding of how stats work or I thought I did.

I have 4 toon right now a Fighter-7lvl, Ranger-4lvl, Cleric-5lvl and a Wizard-5lvl. All of my toons have a 14 or higher in the Dex stat to get a AC bonus. I struggle to solo quest that I think should be no problem, i.e I am usually 1-2 lvl higher than the quest, so I am doing something wrong. I am starting to rethink my toons here @ work and was wondering is AC is not the same in DDO .

Take the Wiz toon, I have seen build with 8-10 in dex and that is a good build for soloing? My wiz is getting zapped all the time, he may retire in the tavern and drink up what money is left. LOL

Any input on this would be great, so I have the knowledge.

Thanks

P.S I am using Mage Armor, Sheid ect...

Damage reduction often plays a more important role in DDO than AC. Even at low levels.

Invulnerability is GREAT for low levels. It is pretty serviceable up to around level 8 or so.

If you cannot craft one, I suggest trying to buy a shard of invulnerability from someone who can. Someone might even give you one in trade for ingredients. If your characters are on Sarlona, PM me and I'll send you one for free.

Adamantine full plate is dr 3/- and is good for your fighter. If you have an AC around 25-30 with barkskin potions and a shield, you should be doing fine in L7 quests on normal.

Fortification is another key component of damage reduction. Once your characters start going against the tougher hobgoblins, ogres, trolls and the like you will want medium fort and eventually get heavy fort as you get past L10. Again you can ask others to make these shards for you in trade or you can run Relic of Sovereign Past to craft your own heavy fort necklace.

For your casters, a FEAR item can be pretty helpful. The monsters that do get close enough to hit you won't hit you for long and you'll get more breathing room to heal, maneuver, or counter attack.

I probably wouldn't go higher than 14 dex for any character unless it was a dex based rogue or a twf that needs high dex.

TheHolyDarkness
12-16-2011, 01:58 AM
The way it was explained to me, is that once upon a time when the level cap was still low, just about any build could get meaningful AC...


And it was deemed overpowered. Anyone could pull a whole gaggle of mobs only to see "Miss...Miss...Miss...Miss..." as one stood there, laughing.

As they slowly raised the level cap over time, the developers long ago decided to neglect the scalability of AC items. By design, AC is meant lose relevance for most as they approach the higher levels. Instead, survivability in DDO becomes centered around copious amounts of HP (compared to PnP), fortification, healing amplification, and damage reduction.

If you want an AC tank, you can build an AC Tank. Simply understand that Turbine didn't want just any level 20 Paladin in full plate seeing "Miss...Miss...Miss..." all the time even as 10 mobs attempt to jump him.

Armor that provides good DR or other benefits are instead the preferred end game items.

Hope that makes sense.


~TheHolyDarkness Out~

P.S. Oh, but with AC being nerfed for MMO balance, this therefore hurts the usefulness of the Dex stat. In the end, it serves only the following purposes:

1) Qualifying for iTWF.
2) Your reflex save.

That's about it unfortunately.

Sajon_Ra
12-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Thanks to all who took the time to answer my question.

thwart
12-16-2011, 09:20 AM
I solo most of the time. I do not really worry about AC for many of the reasons stated above. I might start with a 15 dex if I am going for a TWF build. Otherwise, I normally dump stat dex for Str or Con which matter a lot more to me as a solo player.

Mindspat
12-30-2011, 04:54 PM
Dex and AC can matter for any class if you understand the content and mobs you'll be facing. Agasint trash mobs where there's a potential to needlessly soak up resources both can be handy, but they aren't going to be as usefull against the raid bosses or most red named mobs.

I push the AC on my Elf Sorcerer into the low 70's with ship and self buffs and it absolutely helps when dealing with regulare trash mobs. Of course when I'm running raids or epic content the AC has very little benefit even though I'm not always running that content; haven't played much in the last several months.

The biggest advantage of Dex is the reflex saves. If you're wearing armor (I wear light armor with max dex bonus 7 on my Sorcerer) you really don't want to exceed what you'll be wearing since in a sense you're wasting the points spent into that attribute. A Dex of 14, +6 item, +3 tome, +1 racial, will cap your dex for the benefit of armor. Looking at my character sheet it says 25reflex save with Greater Heroism, not the amount which would give you immunity but the saves are frequent enough to matter.

Most players abstain from dex due to a min/max type of approach. A splash can work but it must suit your playstyle to make the benefit worthwhile otherwise it could be a waste.