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View Full Version : Complaints about the complaints about insta kills.



SoloPhalanx
12-07-2011, 05:14 AM
I stand at a 43 Necro DC. Not that high, but I assume it's safe to say higher than 90% of the casters playing this game.
It will be maxed at 45, counting yugo and ship, when I get a litany, a damned Rhakir's (+1 except int, still lacking it) and a +4 tome.

Red fens and Carnival are trivialised by this (43 DC). Sands mobs are probably only instakilled 20% of the time (with no debuffs, but even with energy drain, fod only hits ~60% or so).

I also regularly run Epic Chains of Flame in an all arcane party. We resort to SLAs a lot (after an initial wail/circle by each of us usually somewhere between 25-50% of the mobs are alive) as none of us can just "easy-button" it.

If you want to have casters having a hard time, make the saves of all epic mobs the same as sands.
Instead of having a lot of vets quit (0.5% of the game? dunno), you'll have casual players hit, and LFMs actually vanish for good. I love how you all complain about this, yet seem to want to make it even worse.

For Shade, etc: go run with a caster with the average 40-41 DC. I'm sure you'll start having more fun, and then proceed to complain about how gimp they are.

Oh, the suggestion part. When a melee gets Red Scale, Epic SoS, 5 Piece Abishai equipped, he gets to activate some special set bonus, making him able to vorpal for the next 15 swings. slap a cooldown on it. that should balance stuff.

TL,DR: It's hard to get gear to be uber, melees crying a lot obv don't run with casters with low DCs, refuse to take these but complain about a higher DC one. Give a bonus to melees if they are willing to sacrifice pretty much all their gear slots to slot something to give them a set bonus to do insta-kills.

Suggestion 2: Go run Wiz-King / add more Undead Epics, only 1 Insta Kill PM's have for that.

FranOhmsford
12-07-2011, 05:32 AM
Extremely well put +1

To the Devs - Epic Necro and Epic Delera's: It's time.

Kmnh
12-07-2011, 07:05 AM
I have been doing exactly that. I TR'd out of my boring necro archmage, and I hit newbie lfms for epics instead of the farming dinosaur runs.

Shortman sands runs are still kinda fun , but nowhere close to the old chains of flame.

The elite few who are complaining about the instakills mostly don't care about what you do with fens, carnival or pirate epics. It's the nerfing of sands, reaver's refuge and amrath stuff that really irks me. The casual crowd will never enjoy epic chains of flame, elite stealer of souls or elite bastion of power, that stuff is too long and too hard for them.

I used to run chains of flame very often, now I hardly ever bother going there. It's content that doesn't appeal to anyone. Give it back to the crazy crowd please.

SoloPhalanx
12-07-2011, 07:27 AM
I used to run chains of flame very often, now I hardly ever bother going there. It's content that doesn't appeal to anyone. Give it back to the crazy crowd please.

It appeals to me, and to many others.

Just wondering, how are newbies supposed to catch up with the "crazy crowd" if you make the quests inacessible to them?

R0cksteady
12-07-2011, 07:43 AM
lol it took me a month to roll my caster, level it, get it's Necro, Enchant and Conjuration DCs above 40 and get half decent (FAR from optimal) gear.

It took me 2 years to fully gear up my fighter optimally, get a couple of past lives and basically do everything I can to max out DPS, have some decent defense and a few crappy healing options (Scrolls, Silver Flame Pots).

Caster is by far more powerful, as far as damage, crowd control options, killing options, survivability (Kiting, quickened reconstruct).

It's laughable how people who play only casters try to downplay the EXTREME power imbalance because they fear getting any kind of nerf, while melees get them every update or two.

SoloPhalanx
12-07-2011, 07:57 AM
lol it took me a month to roll my caster, level it, get it's Necro, Enchant and Conjuration DCs above 40 and get half decent (FAR from optimal) gear.

It took me 2 years to fully gear up my fighter optimally, get a couple of past lives and basically do everything I can to max out DPS, have some decent defense and a few crappy healing options (Scrolls, Silver Flame Pots).

Caster is by far more powerful, as far as damage, crowd control options, killing options, survivability (Kiting, quickened reconstruct).

It's laughable how people who play only casters try to downplay the EXTREME power imbalance because they fear getting any kind of nerf, while melees get them every update or two.

If you think a caster with DCs of 40 or above 40 (up to 42 or so) is anywhere close to the casters people are complaining about, it just shows your lack of knowledge of this game.

I'm not saying casters aren't more powerful than a melee. But if you fail to grasp that SF pots are as powerful as a Recon (not to mention that again, people are complaining about PMs mostly, which cant even be reconned while in form), you really have no business in this thread.

One good suggestion I've seen: make the cast time of AOE Insta-Kills a longer casting time, alike to Disco Ball/Symbols/Summons.

Kmnh
12-07-2011, 08:08 AM
It appeals to me, and to many others.

Just wondering, how are newbies supposed to catch up with the "crazy crowd" if you make the quests inacessible to them?

There is no important loot in any of those quests. Running those quests on elite or epic often won't let you catch up on gea. Go run chronoscope, lord of blades, abbot and shroud if you want that.

It won't help you catch up on skill either, since the encounters in those quests were designed around the blanket immunities. The mobs are all happy to huddle together for your wail. Contrast to using wail on Acute Delirium and you will see the difference.

hit_fido
12-07-2011, 01:57 PM
Oh, the suggestion part. When a melee gets Red Scale, Epic SoS, 5 Piece Abishai equipped, he gets to activate some special set bonus, making him able to vorpal for the next 15 swings. slap a cooldown on it. that should balance stuff.

I suspect most players who gravitated toward melee characters would not mind at all leaving caster capabilities essentially untouched, if Turbine hadn't removed the two primary ways a melee had to take one single mob down quicker: vorpals and stun+autocrit.

Even before those were removed, as a melee you have to actually be within hit range of the mob you're attacking to do any damage or have the opportunity for a fast termination, which implies that melee will be taking damage. Vorpals were random, and yes sometimes produced a very fast kill, but other times not - meanwhile incoming damage mounts. Stun could mitigate incoming damage from one mob and autocrit mean the mob could die much quicker. In either case if the encounter involves multiple mobs then incoming damage is even greater while being able to work at only one foe at a time. After the changes, vorpals are useless and stunned mobs take 2-3 times longer to vanquish.

Increasing mob fortitude saves only "nerfs" melee further when it comes to landing a stun or sunder, so is a counterproductive suggestion. I also have no interest in seeing caster spell capabilities nerfed. But suggesting that a melee character acquire red scale armor, esos, and 5 other pieces of epic gear in order to have a cooldown limited chance to vorpal a mob is a bit ridiculous.

There was nothing overpowered re: melee vorpals or autocrit on stun especially in light of the unavoidable risk of incoming damage, particularly in a group of mobs. Taking some steps back on those two changes or otherwise buffing melee in other ways is the right direction to go.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 02:13 PM
I suspect most players who gravitated toward melee characters would not mind at all leaving caster capabilities essentially untouched, if Turbine hadn't removed the two primary ways a melee had to take one single mob down quicker: vorpals and stun+autocrit.
.

And WoP+ Autocrit, don't forget that.

Chai
12-08-2011, 09:07 AM
I agree with the OP 100%. Too many people putting requirements like "44DC a must" in their LFMs. I bet these are the same people moaning about not having fun because they will only take overgeared-for-the-content-they-are-running casters into the groups, and then expect them not to destroy the content, like an NFL running back would a junior varsity HS defense.

Chai
12-08-2011, 09:08 AM
And WoP+ Autocrit, don't forget that.

While I do believe stat damage was OP back in the cap 16 pre epic days, theres no way in hell its OP now. Might want to consider reversing some of these melee nerfs Turbine.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 09:24 AM
Suggestion 2: Go run Wiz-King / add more Undead Epics, only 1 Insta Kill PM's have for that.

Or the epics with drow.

Cyr
12-08-2011, 09:26 AM
And WoP+ Autocrit, don't forget that.

Would need to kill the epic mob uber resistance to stat damage also...

Remember each step we take in this direction makes the game easier.

It is basically the same goofyness the developers ran into when they decided that casters needed to be uber. It lead to them deciding they needed to monkey with old content...

Basically this is the nth cycle of this madness at this point. The developers are not making rational and proportional changes to the game for balance. They are throwing darts at the board and when they miss they move the dartboard.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 09:52 AM
Just make wail only affect 4 mobs at a time. There, we're done.

I don't run the Sands epics, so I don't know how over-powered casters are there...

I mostly run the Sentinals epics and the House P epics... and eDA and eChrono... and I'm quite happy to bring melee along. I use wail AND dance AND mass holds AND symbol of death AND FoD AND web AND Waves of Exhaustion AND Hypno AND Crushing Despair AND Ice Storm AND Power Word: Kill AND DoTs AND Polar Ray AND my free Magic Missiles from my past life AND...

Wow, I use a lot of spells... No wonder I have fun with my caster... But I have to be careful with my SP, so I often use dancing ball and mass hold, and let the melees kill the trash... Plus there are trash in there (drow) that are VERY hard for me to kill.

I don't have the SP to solo any epic quests... I guess I could recharge with the Torc, and heal myself with scrolls, but that's boring and only works when soloing. I can't recharge like that with a group because they are not going to stand there and let some archer plink at me.

It's just easier and more fun to play with a full group, and use ALL my spells. I'm powerful, but I don't see myself as overpowered when I play my wizard. I NEED the melee to complete.

smatt
12-08-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm here to complain about something....

I hate that darned something... :mad:

My work here is done! :D

Missing_Minds
12-08-2011, 10:26 AM
Extremely well put +1

To the Devs - Epic Necro and Epic Delera's: It's time.

Necro... oh HECK NO. BLEH. bad taste of those sets still in my mouth.

Delera's I'd be ok with. But if you do Delera's you need to do Threnal. (voice and mantle afterall.)

Me... I just want an epic Dirk's. Yeah, very simple quest, but I think it would be great, let alone epic muck's bane.

FranOhmsford
12-08-2011, 10:35 AM
Necro... oh HECK NO. BLEH. bad taste of those sets still in my mouth.

Delera's I'd be ok with. But if you do Delera's you need to do Threnal. (voice and mantle afterall.)

Me... I just want an epic Dirk's. Yeah, very simple quest, but I think it would be great, let alone epic muck's bane.

Necro 1 actually has 4 quests worthy of being epiced - The only one that could be a problem is Burning Heart - Frankly once you're past the 4 runes it's a far easier quest than the other three - Immortal may need to have the optionals made mandatory though on epic.

Necro 2 I'd absolutely love to see Epic Shadow Knight - The other 3 hell no - Shadow Crypt would probably make a good epic too.

Necro 3 - all 5 quests would probably work fine.

Necro 4 - Well these tend to get done by level 20s anyway.

I'd love to see epic Threnal - May get the devs to actually sort it out then.

Delera's would be pretty boring compared to the Necros in my opinion - The side quests would probably make good epics though.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 10:37 AM
Delera's would be pretty boring compared to the Necros in my opinion - The side quests would probably make good epics though.

That one with the lich at the top would be awesome as an epic (except it's kind of too long)

Missing_Minds
12-08-2011, 10:40 AM
That one with the lich at the top would be awesome as an epic (except it's kind of too long)

That isn't Delera's though (if located in Derla's area.) I do agree, that would be awesome, but they'd have to change the mechanics of the falling floor, or add to it.

That reminds me, do PMs in undead form fall still? I've always wondered if it was an undead or npc thing.

Riggs
12-10-2011, 03:06 PM
lol it took me a month to roll my caster, level it, get it's Necro, Enchant and Conjuration DCs above 40 and get half decent (FAR from optimal) gear.

It took me 2 years to fully gear up my fighter optimally, get a couple of past lives and basically do everything I can to max out DPS, have some decent defense and a few crappy healing options (Scrolls, Silver Flame Pots).

Caster is by far more powerful, as far as damage, crowd control options, killing options, survivability (Kiting, quickened reconstruct).

It's laughable how people who play only casters try to downplay the EXTREME power imbalance because they fear getting any kind of nerf, while melees get them every update or two.

Casters were extremely underpowered for a very long time.

There used to be no firewall.
The first two years of the game for a wizard was "Haste me, web monsters, and **** and dont grab agro with stupid spells that dont kill anything and make it harder for the melees to do the real killing"

Metamagics multiplied. A max/empower/extended firewall cost 225 mana at one point. When the level cap was 12-16 that meant in a quest you could cast about 4-5 firewalls TOTAL - then wait for a shrine while melee did everything again - or cast them without metamagics - which defeats the point of having the feats in the first place.

Then Mod 5 hit and arcanes became too powerful for a while...for trash anyway. You needed melee for boss fights for the most part (unless there was a 'safe spot' and you could stand there for 10 min and cook something), and it is not the trash that really matters in a quest, it is the last fight to finish the quest that really matters.

After some various changes, Amrath hits - and saves are so stupidly high few casters can do anything useful. Back to "Haste, displace, web...." Until people started getting epic level gear and multiple TR's and archmagi/PM higher DC spells.

Balance has see-sawed back and forth for years. It might take a long time to gear up a melee - but everything other than a big weapon and a str/hp item is basically just a bonus.

Chai
12-11-2011, 12:07 AM
Casters were extremely underpowered for a very long time.

There used to be no firewall.
The first two years of the game for a wizard was "Haste me, web monsters, and **** and dont grab agro with stupid spells that dont kill anything and make it harder for the melees to do the real killing"

Metamagics multiplied. A max/empower/extended firewall cost 225 mana at one point. When the level cap was 12-16 that meant in a quest you could cast about 4-5 firewalls TOTAL - then wait for a shrine while melee did everything again - or cast them without metamagics - which defeats the point of having the feats in the first place.

Then Mod 5 hit and arcanes became too powerful for a while...for trash anyway. You needed melee for boss fights for the most part (unless there was a 'safe spot' and you could stand there for 10 min and cook something), and it is not the trash that really matters in a quest, it is the last fight to finish the quest that really matters.

After some various changes, Amrath hits - and saves are so stupidly high few casters can do anything useful. Back to "Haste, displace, web...." Until people started getting epic level gear and multiple TR's and archmagi/PM higher DC spells.

Balance has see-sawed back and forth for years. It might take a long time to gear up a melee - but everything other than a big weapon and a str/hp item is basically just a bonus.

Yeap, then there was the 2 full years of "have 44 enchant DC or dont join my EPIC group." Now cast mass hold and haste, and be quiet. :p

Chai
12-11-2011, 12:19 AM
lol it took me a month to roll my caster, level it, get it's Necro, Enchant and Conjuration DCs above 40 and get half decent (FAR from optimal) gear.

It took me 2 years to fully gear up my fighter optimally, get a couple of past lives and basically do everything I can to max out DPS, have some decent defense and a few crappy healing options (Scrolls, Silver Flame Pots).

Caster is by far more powerful, as far as damage, crowd control options, killing options, survivability (Kiting, quickened reconstruct).

It's laughable how people who play only casters try to downplay the EXTREME power imbalance because they fear getting any kind of nerf, while melees get them every update or two.

SO what you are saying is you are not willing to play PIKING melee, but you are willing to play a TOKEN melee. After they nerf necro, wizards will be forced into enchant roles again. We wont need to take well geared melee into the quests tho, because any melee will suffice. Beating down held mobs is just as mind numbingly boring as watching the caster kill 90% of them.

I also think its hilarious that predominantly melee players were perfectly satisfied the entire time epic LFMs were "have 44 DC or dont join my group" - What you really meant to say was "no, no, no, dont have a 44 necro DC and kill all the mobs, have a 44 enchant DC, then we can make it look like we are doing something while the caster hands the completion to us on a silver platter.

The other option we will have of course it to TR into sorcs. Instead of standing there and watching us wail mobs, melee will stand there and watch us AE nuke them. The end result will be the same. The only difference is the spell that will be used to kill the mobs, and the school of magic the forumites will be complaining about in 2012 after necromancy is nerfed. Will you be complaining that water savants are too powerful in 6 months?

tinyelvis
12-11-2011, 03:15 AM
lol it took me a month to roll my caster, level it, get it's Necro, Enchant and Conjuration DCs above 40 and get half decent (FAR from optimal) gear.

It took me 2 years to fully gear up my fighter optimally, get a couple of past lives and basically do everything I can to max out DPS, have some decent defense and a few crappy healing options (Scrolls, Silver Flame Pots).

Caster is by far more powerful, as far as damage, crowd control options, killing options, survivability (Kiting, quickened reconstruct).

It's laughable how people who play only casters try to downplay the EXTREME power imbalance because they fear getting any kind of nerf, while melees get them every update or two.

My first question is why did it take you so long to get your DC above 40? Changes have been made so new players like yourself can do it much quicker. These are good changes. It means if you like playing a caster you dont have to spend months or years getting him to a point where he has SOME use in epic play, as your noob caster probably does.

To turn your rather noob caster into a real dependable caster will take many months or years of play depending on the amount of hours you spend a week. It is not just a matter of buying an SOS scroll and piking a few raids.

I dont play a pale master but I can empathize with their desire to play end game content too and not just be your support toon or pit crew. That is all they are asking. The ability to play end game content true to their style of play. The developers have given them this opportunity in a way that does not take away from your abilities. Yet you still whine. I dont recall folks like you whining when the pale master was forced to resort to casting Mass hold Monsters so that some stick beater could easily blow through epics and dominate the kill count.

So uber extremely well setup Pale Masters beat your trash kill count now. Get over it or start an LFM and play with yourself. Now that casters can participate offensively, epic play is more enjoyable now than ever before. You want to have a party of nothing but favored souls, cool you can do it. IF you want only sorcs, fine, that is doable too. Only melee with their baby sitters, that is doable too. Heck even a party of bards can run epic now. Everyone can play. That is good. The game is moving in a positive direction.

hit_fido
12-11-2011, 10:14 AM
You want to have a party of nothing but favored souls, cool you can do it. IF you want only sorcs, fine, that is doable too. Only melee with their baby sitters, that is doable too. Heck even a party of bards can run epic now. Everyone can play. That is good. The game is moving in a positive direction.

How about a party of only melee? I mean if it's good that you can form parties of only favored souls, only sorcs, only pale masters, and only bards, and be successful in epics, and that is a sign of, as you say, "the game moving in a positive direction", then shouldn't Turbine make changes to ensure that a party of only melee be just as capable? Why not, right?