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Shade
12-06-2011, 11:48 AM
Introduction and what most of us who play the endgame a lot understand:
- High DC insta kills trivialize all non-immune endgame content to the point there is no challenge, and thus less fun. Mostly the issue is in the multi target spells, allowing casters to clear entire dungeons without much risk to the player, which without said class along in a group are otherwise ultra challenging.
- Most players don't like blanket immunities.
- Many characters are built around exploiting insta kills to their fullest possible extent and getting nerfed is no fun.

How can we fix it without upsetting players by just adding more immunities:

1. Change all multi-target insta kills from instant-death, to instant-doom.
(Read that carefully - MULTI-Target only)

Whats Doom?
-Doom means the target is essentially dead, but not quite yet. It has a fixed counter on it's life, and when that counter expires, so does their life. Enemies in a doomed state realises these are the final moments of their life, and as such are more aggressive, but have weakened saving throws.

How does it work?
On a failed saved versus an AOE insta kill (Such as Wail of the Banshee, Circle of death or Imploision) the target gets a death icon above it's head, but continues to fight you for a set duration. Duration be can viewed as a debuff in his examination panel.

Duration:
The duration scales and is affected by various factors, so a ultra powerful necromancer will end targets faster then your average joe palemaster who just hit 20. It allows more flexibility in upgrading your character, and more rewards for doing so.. Not just "well enemies all fail my DC on a 19 now, so im maxxed" as the game stands now in far too much endgame content.

Base Durations - Set per quest difficulty:
Casual/Solo: 20 seconds
Normal: 25 seconds
Hard: 27 seconds
Elite: 30 seconds
Epic: 40 seconds

Duration modifiers:
Palemaster - As a mastery of necromancy, your doom effects end enemies faster then any other:
-1.5 seconds per tier (-4.5 seconds at pale master III)
Sorcerer - Sorcerer are innately faster at spellcasting, and as such their spells take effect faster:
-2 seconds to doom effects.

DC Based:
Getting over a certain threshold can lower the doom timer:
Every point of DC over 35 nets you -0.5 seconds on the doom timer.
(DC50 = -7.5 seconds)

So a maxxed out palemaster with a DC50 on his necromancy insta kills would get doom timers of:
Casual/Solo: 8 seconds
Normal: 13 seconds
Hard: 15 seconds
Elite: 18 seconds
Epic: 28 seconds

Aggression/Weaken effects:

Aggression is percentile boost to the enemies damage output and movement speed (on all types, melee, ranged and spells) again depending on difficulty:
Casual/Solo: No effect
Normal: +10% damage, +5% movement
Hard: +15% damage, +10% movement
Elite: +20% damage, +15% movement
Epic: +50% damage, +25% movement

Weaken:
Doomed enemies are less able to defend themselfs against further spellcasting and take a -5 penalty to all saving throws. This will allow you to use other effects to pacify their aggression should you need to.

2. Non multi-target insta kills will remain mostly the same.

I believe the game is balanced around casters getting 1 insta kill every 5-8 second (eg: Finger of death, destruction). But not how it is now where they can kill litterally hundreds of enemies instantly, at a near endless rate.

So these would remain unchanged for the most part.

Only difference is low lvl ones would have a reasonable cap to discourage max lvl, max DC casters from spamming multipl low lvl insta kills on extremely powerful enemies.

So low lvl (lvl5 or lower) insta kills would get limits:
1000 Hp or less: Works as now, insta kill.
1001+ Hp: Works a doom on a failed save.
Mid lvl (lvl6 insta kills):
5000 hp or less: Works as now, insta kill.
5001+ Hp: Works a doom on a failed save.
High lvl (lvl7 insta kills):
11,000 hp or less: Works as now, insta kill.
11,001+ Hp: Works a doom on a failed save.
Very high lvl (lvl8+ insta kills)
No hp limits, always insta death.

So with this change, when you get say PK or Slay living, they will work exactly the same, no enemies have 1000+ hp at those lvls. But once you reach higher lvl, and get finger of death/destruction, you will be encouraged to use those instead, as a few enemies will only get Doomed, and not inta-dead.. Tho doomed will still be very useful.

With these changes they could even disable the deathblock immunity orange named get on epic, and keep the game balanced and fun for all classes in a group with a very powerful caster.

This would work on the monster versus players side of thing too, and take the sting out of your whole party being wailed down by an enemy spell caster a bit.. As you'd simply be doomed, and have a chance to retreat somewhere where you can die in peace. Not many enemy spell castings spam wail like players do anyways tho, so it will be a rare occurance to say the least.

Rules for monster vs player:
-Getting deathward/deathblock AFTER you've already been doomed will not help. You are doomed! (actaully this will apply to monsters too, if they cast DW after they are doomed, they still die when their time arrives.)
-Divine intervention will indeed help you. Upon hitting a doomed target, it will trigger immediately, drop you to -9 HP and remove the doom effect, (then do the automatic small CLW effect as normally)
Always sounded like the name of it meant you were intervining upon death, so doing casting it during the final ~30 seconds of someones life to save them seems like a fitting use.

baii
12-06-2011, 11:55 AM
If insta-kill is "fixed"

Sorc will take over :P

voodoogroves
12-06-2011, 11:59 AM
Interesting mechanic; I don't like it but I see where you're going.

I'd rather see this addressed by applying a chance for higher level monsters to spawn with appropriate gear - like wearing a deathblock item. This resolves the issue through existing D&D mechanics, and not creates a new system. Every time things go too far off the reservation it gets more and more borked away from D&D/D20. This just doesn't feel like D&D to me, and instead some random MMO construct.

Give mobs a chance to wear DW, scaling up by difficulty - I'm completely with you on that - scale by difficulty more than the challenge way.

It should also VARY, in that sense this is still a blanket. The humanoids should be gearing more than the animals / elementals - that's built into the CR versus HD assumptions the core rules make and as much as folks power-game and ignore flavor, rats shouldn't be deathwarded the same as Joe the Elite Guard.

maddmatt70
12-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Two thoughts. 1. Last I checked this game was based on D&D instead of whatever game that you are proposing OP. 2. This is one way for a melee to boost their kill counts and casters to go back to the buffing/debuffing/nuking role that some player's out there favor, but many players do not.

How about just a simple solution: more mobs with higher fortitude saves in the higher difficulties and more opposing mob divines that cast mass deathward.

Shade
12-06-2011, 12:05 PM
D&D instead of whatever game that you are proposing OP.
2. kill counts.

lol.

So in your D&D pen and paper games, you spend much time gloating about your kill counts? You record then on a score sheet?

You know as well as anyone this is nothing like pen and paper DnD, and tweaks that diverge from the rules in the name of more balanced and fun gameplay are a good thing, and something that happened since the games inception, and will contiue to happen. To me this is a core gameplay fix, and doesn't really effect the flavor of D&D at all. It's all behind the scenes kind of stuff anyways. Insta kills would still be used, monsters will still be insta killed, deathward willl still be cast, none of it changes.

Besides, what wrong with 1 class dominating the killcount? It's already been like that since U9.. And in U12s pack they dont even show us killcoutns anymore. Clearly turbines not too concerned with that.

It's an arbitrary number that has no real bearing on the gameplay or balance. It's always just been there for something fun to look at. The best casters never worried about it, and they still dont.


How about just a simple solution: more mobs with higher fortitude saves in the higher difficulties and more opposing mob divines that cast mass deathward.'
Your suggesting they into every high lvl quest in the game, adjust saves, code in mobs to cast mass deathward.. And actaully put the word "simple" in there.. Thats a ton of work your asking for.

Thrudh
12-06-2011, 12:11 PM
High DC insta kills trivialize all non-immune endgame content to the point there is no challenge, and thus less fun. Mostly the issue is in the multi target spells, allowing casters to clear entire dungeons without much risk to the player, which without said class along in a group are otherwise ultra challenging.

Not all casters... This is important. If you have ALL the epic gear, and ALL the past-lives, the game will become trivial. You win.

The devs should not balance epic around the top casters that Shade runs with. Most casters are not able to clear entire dungeons without much risk and without running out of SP.


That said, your ideas are interesting... I like the Doomed idea... However, that will take some serious development time...

Just make wail and implosion limited to only killing 4 mobs at a time... and we're mostly done. Much easier fix.

Rawel_San
12-06-2011, 12:18 PM
<snip>
Your suggesting they into every high lvl quest in the game, adjust saves, code in mobs to cast mass deathward.. And actaully put the word "simple" in there.. Thats a ton of work your asking for.

Did you seriously just claim that what the poster proposed, giving a random chance for mobs to have deathblock,
tweakin saves and tweaking how often divines cast death ward is a TON of work compared to what you propose
which includes adding a completely new mechanic to the game? Are you even from this planet?

sephiroth1084
12-06-2011, 12:19 PM
Uh...instakills shouldn't take longer to kill a group of monsters than nukes do. Almost 30 seconds when super-ridiculously-maxed out (mind you that a 50 Necro DC is counting House D Int potions, full-set Abishai cookies and Completionist) would make bothering completely worthless. Sure, you would save some SP by not nuking, but I can kill most groups of non-orange/red epic mobs in under 30 seconds for not much more SP (Web/disco ball/Mass Hold + Ice Storm + Death Aura + cycling Necrotic Bolt and Blast).

The solution to instakills is to have better balanced groups of monsters by have fewer all-bruiser groups, and more bruisers supported by an arcane or divine caster (or bard) that throws out a couple of buffs as their opening aggro actions.

Look at the opening fight in Epic Chronoscope. The difference between killing the teifling cleric immediately and not doing so is rather tremendous. In groups, it's mostly irrelevant because all the melees surround the tiefling in order to kill it as soon as it spawns, but if we couldn't set-up like that, we'd see some more randomness in that encounter. When soloing, it more than doubles the duration of the encounter and requires a lot more SP, particularly since the cleric usually catches the bearded devil in the Mass DW.

A divine can toss out Mass DW, individual FoM, Unholy Aura, Prayer or Recitation to boost their allies' saves.

An arcane can toss out GH or Rage to boost their allies' saves.

We rarely see any of that in endgame content, yet they represent a simple, interesting solution.

If you're fast enough on the trigger, you can prevent the buffs, or if you feel like allowing an Assassin to move ahead of the group, you can prevent the buffs, though in both cases you're subject to the luck of the roll. It opens up the door for players who care to toss out Dispel Magic in order to adjust to the challenge presented. And it allows melees who are really tired of casters stealing kills or making dungeons boring for them the ability to rush ahead of the group by just a little bit in order to trigger the casting of this stuff.

stainer
12-06-2011, 12:19 PM
I like casters the way they are.

Cyr
12-06-2011, 12:23 PM
It's an interesting basic idea, but the implementation is not really ideal.

First the buff for mobs has to go. Spells that buff mobs and then do other stuff is not a great idea unless the other stuff is really awesome. In this case not so much considering the amount of time the mobs get to stay active after a successful cast.

Second the death timer is a great basic idea. The length though would be pretty lame ingame though where thirty seconds is a long time for a bunch of trash mobs to be sticking around unless they are a seriously debuffed during that time.

Third the basic mechanic of reducing timers is interesting, but I think a better way to have it work would be a reduction based upon by how much a mob failed it's saving throw. That would add the intended mechanic of a higher DC being better while also providing some interesting variability in results.

So with that in mind my counter proposal to a rather interesting basic idea...

All instant death effects now are coded as timed death effects. Those with an active death counter (still in countdown) gain a -5 to fort saves, -5 damage per hit, -5 to hit, and -5 AC reflecting their critical state. Once a death counter reaches zero the monster instantly dies. Death ward prevents death counters from being appllied and they can be removed by a greater restoration spell. A successful saving throw versus the initial spell does not apply a death counter.

The formula for a death counter intial time (in seconds) = 30 - 3 per pale master prestige rank - 1 per archmage necromancy rank - 3* (spell DC - saving throw rolled). A negative number from this formula applies the death effect instantly. For spells with multiple saves to be failed the smallest difference of spell DC - saving throw rolled is used in the formula.

sephiroth1084
12-06-2011, 12:24 PM
lol.

So in your D&D pen and paper games, you spend much time gloating about your kill counts? You record then on a score sheet? Sometimes. Definitely know people who do more often than I. I know that I still remember fondly/brag a little about the time I managed to kill 15 creatures in one round using Great Cleave.

And my groups often keep a list of both funny/memorable quotes and highest damage on a single swing by each player.


Your suggesting they into every high lvl quest in the game, adjust saves, code in mobs to cast mass deathward.. And actaully put the word "simple" in there.. Thats a ton of work your asking for.
Right, because recoding some spells to work in a completely different fashion, using new mechanics is simple.

Oh, and one of the two solutions creates a more interesting play environment, while the other doesn't at all, meaning that one is worth a little dev time.

grodon9999
12-06-2011, 12:26 PM
How about just a simple solution: more mobs with higher fortitude saves in the higher difficulties and more opposing mob divines that cast mass deathward.

Raise the fort save some more so nothing can be stunned, great idea there! :)

Franke
12-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Another caster nerf thread...really?

Rawel_San
12-06-2011, 12:28 PM
<snip>

It opens up the door for players who care to toss out Dispel Magic in order to adjust to the challenge presented. <snip>

While I agree with your post in general I would like to point out that dispel magic (and all it's other variants that
are in game greater dispel magic and mordekainen's disjunction) are sadly completely useless. The reason is you
make a caster level check, 1d20+caster level for mordekai (which is the best one the others have caster level
caps) vs. 11+caster level of spell. Since caster levels for enemy spells cast by casters (divines or arcanes) are
equal to the CR of the mob this means that even the casters in elite mindsunder already get undispellable
death ward (as their CR is 32 I think?) which means you have to beat 43 to dispel.

sephiroth1084
12-06-2011, 12:30 PM
The formula for a death counter intial time (in seconds) = 30 - 3 per pale master prestige rank - 1 per archmage necromancy rank - 3* (spell DC - saving throw rolled). A negative number from this formula applies the death effect instantly. For spells with multiple saves to be failed the smallest difference of spell DC - saving throw rolled is used in the formula.
So, a PM would start at a base of 21 seconds.
Assume the monster fails by 1: 18 seconds.
Assume the monster fails by 5: 6 seconds.

An AM would be at 26 seconds assuming they take 4 ranks of SLAs?

I don't think PMs need to be that much better at instakills than AMs are, especially since there is already a significant disparity there.

Tying the countdown to the difference in DC vs. saving throw would be the way to go...if this idea on the whole didn't look so horrid.

voodoogroves
12-06-2011, 12:30 PM
While I agree with your post in general I would like to point out that dispel magic (and all it's other variants that
are in game greater dispel magic and mordekainen's disjunction) are sadly completely useless. The reason is you
make a caster level check, 1d20+caster level for mordekai (which is the best one the others have caster level
caps) vs. 11+caster level of spell. Since caster levels for enemy spells cast by casters (divines or arcanes) are
equal to the CR of the mob this means that even the casters in elite mindsunder already get undispellable
death ward (as their CR is 32 I think?) which means you have to beat 43 to dispel.

CR should not equal CL; that's something they need to unwind.

sephiroth1084
12-06-2011, 12:31 PM
Oh! Here's another solution: stop running epics with wizards, and only take nuke-heavy sorcerers. Problem solved! Take a bard, a healer and 4 other characters.

Monkey_Archer
12-06-2011, 12:31 PM
So... in most content my sorc kills things much faster with damage then my necro spec wizard does with instakills... Do mobs that I "kill" with a ball lightning also get a "doomed" effect instead of dying?

Vellrad
12-06-2011, 12:31 PM
Lets say devs are gonna add this.
Then Shade comes with another whine, that after getting doomed mobs is mass held, and he still can't swing.
I'm sorry dude, but times when casters were melees' ******* are over, and if you think mass hold + beat them with using as less self sufficient melees as possible was less boring than instakill and move on, there's smoething wrong with you :(.

Rawel_San
12-06-2011, 12:33 PM
CR should not equal CL; that's something they need to unwind.

I agree. I'm guessing there must be a mechanic for it too since the dogs in epic lob quite certainly have a high
CR but the goo they cast can be broken off scrolls (same situation for epic chrono end boss).

My guess is though that for those spells effects (epic chrono/epic lob) the caster level is fixed for the spell in some
way or possibly the spell effects don't count as spells at all but as come kind of sla with caster level fixed.

irivan
12-06-2011, 12:34 PM
Uh...instakills shouldn't take longer to kill a group of monsters than nukes do. Almost 30 seconds when super-ridiculously-maxed out (mind you that a 50 Necro DC is counting House D Int potions, full-set Abishai cookies and Completionist) would make bothering completely worthless. Sure, you would save some SP by not nuking, but I can kill most groups of non-orange/red epic mobs in under 30 seconds for not much more SP (Web/disco ball/Mass Hold + Ice Storm + Death Aura + cycling Necrotic Bolt and Blast).

The solution to instakills is to have better balanced groups of monsters by have fewer all-bruiser groups, and more bruisers supported by an arcane or divine caster (or bard) that throws out a couple of buffs as their opening aggro actions.

Look at the opening fight in Epic Chronoscope. The difference between killing the teifling cleric immediately and not doing so is rather tremendous. In groups, it's mostly irrelevant because all the melees surround the tiefling in order to kill it as soon as it spawns, but if we couldn't set-up like that, we'd see some more randomness in that encounter. When soloing, it more than doubles the duration of the encounter and requires a lot more SP, particularly since the cleric usually catches the bearded devil in the Mass DW.

A divine can toss out Mass DW, individual FoM, Unholy Aura, Prayer or Recitation to boost their allies' saves.

An arcane can toss out GH or Rage to boost their allies' saves.

We rarely see any of that in endgame content, yet they represent a simple, interesting solution.

If you're fast enough on the trigger, you can prevent the buffs, or if you feel like allowing an Assassin to move ahead of the group, you can prevent the buffs, though in both cases you're subject to the luck of the roll. It opens up the door for players who care to toss out Dispel Magic in order to adjust to the challenge presented. And it allows melees who are really tired of casters stealing kills or making dungeons boring for them the ability to rush ahead of the group by just a little bit in order to trigger the casting of this stuff.

I agree with your sentiments.

Shade is completely obsessed with tilting the balance in the favor of his two favorite characters, Axer and Obliterator, you can tell by his desire to give him a chance with his Barb in this mechanic to kill mobs before a Wizard can, and also making sure that no Wizard other than the most speced out PM can take it down before his Sorcerer can.

Reading the post is almost funny

Sorcerer - Sorcerer are innately faster at spellcasting, and as such their spells take effect faster:
-2 seconds to doom effects.

Seriously? Since when does sorcerer faster casting actually strengthen a spell? Sorcerer faster casting is something that even only exists in DDO, not in PnP and not in any other DnD video game. He just wants this as something when it is all said and done he can come running back to the forums proclaiming yet another reason to do away with Wizard.

The entire post is laughable.

So I say the best solution to the issue is better mob programming, and if the devs don't want their mobs one shoted they can build stories that include divines, mobs with unique items that we can loot, and other casters to support them, that way it makes the grouping mechanism more complex, a reason to have an Assassin for example or make player ability really count, because he really needs to be fast and capable of identifying the casters and ending them first. And if not, you better have the muscle in the party to deal with the mob, aka hard hitting melees.

That is just worlds better, than annoying new mechanics that the devs could spend their time building druids with.

Kadriel
12-06-2011, 12:40 PM
IMHO spell dc is one of the few scores in this game not killed by a d20 spread.

if I remember correctly the max static dc without short terms buffs should be around 47, and with short term buffs you can maybe get it to 51.

I guess we can all agree only a severly gimped caster that intend to uses dc spells would have dcs under 32. This means using 1d20 to roll saves allows us to gives %5 chance for a bad caster to land a spell (only on a 1) and 95% to the bestest caster possible in the whole game, counting even completionist, short term buffs like store and house d pots and such. That sound resonable for me. If it is currently too easy, I really think it is all a matter of adding a few points to the base save of mobs

ferrite
12-06-2011, 12:41 PM
An intriguing idea.

But why not simply increase the cooldown of the offending spell, Wail of the Banshee? Increase it to, say +10% or so. If content is still too easy after that, then increase by another 10% and so forth, until the balance of time spent vs. marginal gains is reached. One thing you can always bet on, is the impatience of the average player, and groups that are forced to wait between Wails will begin to find other, faster ways to achieve the goal.

Or.. simply remove Wail from the game completely (gasp!). Since this game only has a fraction of all 9th level spells in it anyway. I can think of a few missing right off the top of my head.. Bigby's, Weird, Time Stop, so no huge loss here.

Maybe its just a case of, some PnP spells translate well to RTS, and some don't. Wail could be one of those spells.

Postumus
12-06-2011, 12:43 PM
- Most players don't like blanket immunities.
- Many characters are built around exploiting insta kills to their fullest possible extent and getting nerfed is no fun.

[B]How can we fix it without upsetting players by just adding more immunities:

1. Change all multi-target insta kills from instant-death, to instant-doom.
(Read that carefully - MULTI-Target only)



I don't like this idea. It's a nerf with a nasty trickle down effect.

B/c you think some great casters are OP in epic, my multi-target instakills become multi-target "freeze-until-tagged-by-a-melee" timers in all content? No thanks.

I agree with other posters, just raise the fort saves and/or have enemy casters cast deathward more frequently. Less dev time involved, no new mechanics, and no nerf to anyone not playing epics.

maddmatt70
12-06-2011, 12:53 PM
Raise the fort save some more so nothing can be stunned, great idea there! :)

Sure. They can always hand out items with +5 to tactic dcs and upgrade the tactic enhancement line if they choose.. +15 shatter and stun weapons etc.. etc. That is easy to fix..

voodoogroves
12-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Sure. They can always hand out items with +5 to tactic dcs and upgrade the tactic enhancement line if they choose.. +15 shatter and stun weapons etc.. etc. That is easy to fix..

Or give them a bonus to save versus spells only ... or against necromancy, enchantment, etc. Why can't they also be wearing random cannith gear?

sephiroth1084
12-06-2011, 12:56 PM
Sure. They can always hand out items with +5 to tactic dcs and upgrade the tactic enhancement line if they choose.. +15 shatter and stun weapons etc.. etc. That is easy to fix..
Yeah, too much else is affected from simply raising saves; monk special attacks, tactics feats, non-insta-kill spells with Fort saves (Necrotic Ray and Disintegrate spring to mind).

Hmm...maybe we should implement Axer's idea, but triple epic trash HP so that simply swinging a sword or tossing nukes isn't much faster than waiting out a Doom timer.

Vellrad
12-06-2011, 12:59 PM
Nah, trashes are just fine, as they're now.
They only exist to die.
Just add more oranges, and problem is fixed (but of course most players will just run on invisibility past hordes of oranges/reds).

grodon9999
12-06-2011, 01:13 PM
Sure. They can always hand out items with +5 to tactic dcs and upgrade the tactic enhancement line if they choose.. +15 shatter and stun weapons etc.. etc. That is easy to fix..

You know . . . you just sold me on this. Just bump up the natural DC on all Fort save tactics (stuns, sunders) by 5 and raise all the fort saves by 5. Problem solved.

better yet would just be to give the mobs a +5 "AoE" insta-death resistance, I don't see Finger or destruction being an issue.

Or just leave it alone and work on some new quests where it's like EVON3 where some mobs are just too hard to handle with spells so melees can still feel useful.

grodon9999
12-06-2011, 01:16 PM
I agree with your sentiments.

Shade is completely obsessed with tilting the balance in the favor of his two favorite characters, Axer and Obliterator, you can tell by his desire to give him a chance with his Barb in this mechanic to kill mobs before a Wizard can, and also making sure that no Wizard other than the most speced out PM can take it down before his Sorcerer can.


You do have to admire the creativity though. He managed to come up with a way so Wail of the Banshee is a buff for his barbarian.

Cyr
12-06-2011, 01:17 PM
So, a PM would start at a base of 21 seconds.
Assume the monster fails by 1: 18 seconds.
Assume the monster fails by 5: 6 seconds.

An AM would be at 26 seconds assuming they take 4 ranks of SLAs?

I don't think PMs need to be that much better at instakills than AMs are, especially since there is already a significant disparity there.

Tying the countdown to the difference in DC vs. saving throw would be the way to go...if this idea on the whole didn't look so horrid.

Good point. Change that to 2 for every rank of AM and it should work out better.

Grace_ana
12-06-2011, 02:24 PM
There is no problem to fix; therefore, none of this should be implemented.

Talias006
12-06-2011, 04:18 PM
Did you seriously just claim that what the poster proposed, giving a random chance for mobs to have deathblock,
tweakin saves and tweaking how often divines cast death ward is a TON of work compared to what you propose
which includes adding a completely new mechanic to the game? Are you even from this planet?

I think that Shade was laughing at the idea that this alternate fix was "simple."
Sure, Shade's idea wasn't simple either, but he admits such as defined by his initial post which was quite lengthy.
No fix is truly simple unless it's a blanket effect, and then we really need another one of those... :rolleyes:


Another caster nerf thread...really?

Could be worse, could be "Another nerf melee Update... really?"
There has to be some middle ground somewhere, else one type of character (melee) is just along for the ride/pike while the other (caster/divine) does the quest.


There is no problem to fix; therefore, none of this should be implemented.

Really? You don't see the disparity between usefulness of melee vs caster?

Aesop
12-06-2011, 04:26 PM
I wouldn't mind the idea of Mobs having Buff spells on them. Maybe not all have a specific buff at a time but some may.

Having a HP limit per target on the spells like Vorpal has wouldn't be out of the question either... though I think the limit should be higher than 1000 and if the target does have more than 1000 it should still suffer some heavy damage... then again I think Vorpal damage should be higher as well.

well in any case I'm not fond of Shade's proposal so /not signed.

Aesop

Drekisen
12-06-2011, 04:27 PM
You know what's really funny about this, is it has nothing to do with classes in DDO and everything to do with great players, pile ons, and people who simply can't adapt.

Go ahead and nerf my Wail spell, I'm still gonna be awesome....not because I am a Wizard in DDO, but because I am a good player.

Grace_ana
12-06-2011, 04:36 PM
Really? You don't see the disparity between usefulness of melee vs caster?

Nope. I see sucky casters and great casters. Player > class.

I also see a lot of whining. I don't see any proposals in this thread to nerf barbs in the first half of leveling, when they have an easier time of things than casters. I don't see proposals to boost rogue dps. I don't see ranged weapon damage addressed. Guess what? All classes are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. Casters don't come on here and cry, "Nerf epic drow! The SR is too much and other people are killing things more than us!" Know why? Because that's part of the balance of the game.

Balance does not ever, ever mean that every class kills at exactly the same rate in every quest/raid from levels 1-20. It does not mean that STR = kills. It does not mean huge weapon = kills. It means that, somewhere along the line, they all shine and they all have weaknesses. Figuring out what those are and allowing those different classes to shine without screaming for nerfs is the sign of a good player.

In short, it's not Turbine's responsibility to make sure you contribute to the group effectively. It's yours as a player.

sirgog
12-06-2011, 04:40 PM
/signed, because Wail and the other AoE death spells are killing the game.

When the best thing a melee can do at endgame is swing a Cursespewer and hit 0 Fortification mobs with Improved Sunder, something is wrong.

Xenostrata
12-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Rethink AoE necros? Yes.

Give epic mobs ~35ish seconds of +50% damage and +25% speed before biting it? Griefing.

EvilI
12-06-2011, 05:11 PM
lol.

So in your D&D pen and paper games, you spend much time gloating about your kill counts? You record then on a score sheet?


Actually, in my D&D PnP there were two things we recorded on our score sheets. One was kill count. The other was... well, we'll discuss that another time.

voodoogroves
12-06-2011, 05:11 PM
/signed, because Wail and the other AoE death spells are killing the game.

When the best thing a melee can do at endgame is swing a Cursespewer and hit 0 Fortification mobs with Improved Sunder, something is wrong.

Agree with the sentiment, but this is not the way.

Drekisen
12-06-2011, 05:16 PM
Agree with the sentiment, but this is not the way.

Nope...it's not the way....again starts the teeter totter for the toddlers.

Someone sit them at a desk to learn to use their minds already

R0cksteady
12-06-2011, 05:19 PM
One change would make me happy with this solution.

Necromancy focues archmages should get the same bonus as sorcs to doom time reduction, and greater necromancy focus on an archmage would be equal to Palemasters in tier 3.

Archmages are already lesser than Palemasters, don't ask for a nerf that hits them a bit more than Palemasters.

Besides that, I like it. My wizard wouldn't be completely nerfed, and the game wouldn't be stupidly easy on epics.

R0cksteady
12-06-2011, 05:25 PM
You know what's really funny about this, is it has nothing to do with classes in DDO and everything to do with great players, pile ons, and people who simply can't adapt.

Go ahead and nerf my Wail spell, I'm still gonna be awesome....not because I am a Wizard in DDO, but because I am a good player.

This is wrong.

I have a Wizard who even before I TRed was FAR more powerful than my third life fighter.

And my first life FvS? Well, this is why I haven't bothered touching my fighter in months. Despite his huge inventory full of epic gear, green steel, 4 ToD sets I swap between and arsenal of weapons, just can't compare to my first life barely geared FvS.

baii
12-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Even if you nerf Necro spec, melee wont come close in trash killing vs Sorc or w.e

Drekisen
12-06-2011, 05:30 PM
This is wrong.

I have a Wizard who even before I TRed was FAR more powerful than my third life fighter.

And my first life FvS? Well, this is why I haven't bothered touching my fighter in months. Despite his huge inventory full of epic gear, green steel, 4 ToD sets I swap between and arsenal of weapons, just can't compare to my first life barely geared FvS.

Focus on one character instead of making twenty and running around with a chicken with it's head cut off....not saying you are like this personally......I bet you will find more power than you know what to do with.

It is not wrong....the great players will stick with there class overcome and dominate....what is wrong is crying your weak then wanting to weaken us so your superior again.....you don't want balance because if you did you would not be asking for it in the form of nerfing another class.....you just want your throne again at any cost...including creating an unbalance that will eventually leave melees "inferior" again....unless the Devs actually get it right this time...which they haven't done in what....6-7 years so far?

Lagin
12-06-2011, 05:42 PM
The concept is ok, but it wont fly for many reasons already posted here.

/not signed.

R0cksteady
12-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Focus on one character instead of making twenty and running around with a chicken with it's head cut off....not saying you are like this personally......I bet you will find more power than you know what to do with.

It is not wrong....the great players will stick with there class overcome and dominate....what is wrong is crying your weak then wanting to weaken us so your superior again.....you don't want balance because if you did you would not be asking for it in the form of nerfing another class.....you just want your throne again.

My throne again?

I want my Fighter and Monk to be useful characters.

Instead we have power classes that do literally everything better than them.

It's not about a throne, it's about some kind of balance. Sure, I feel like a bad ass soloing epics while 5 people run behind me and try to keep up and if possible, hit an enemy. But I don't want my Wizard and FvS to be my only good toons. Yet, no matter how my fighter is built and geared, it will never have as much DPS, crowd control options, self healing, buffs or ANY form of instant killing. So what's the point in playing it?

Drekisen
12-06-2011, 05:55 PM
My throne again?

I want my Fighter and Monk to be useful characters.

Instead we have power classes that do literally everything better than them.

It's not about a throne, it's about some kind of balance. Sure, I feel like a bad ass soloing epics while 5 people run behind me and try to keep up and if possible, hit an enemy. But I don't want my Wizard and FvS to be my only good toons. Yet, no matter how my fighter is built and geared, it will never have as much DPS, crowd control options, self healing, buffs or ANY form of instant killing. So what's the point in playing it?

I am not sure if you were trying to use thrown as some kind of mockery...but I spelled it throne.

What's wrong is this is what gets us nowhere...strengthening the melees does not have to come at the cost of weakening the casters.

If this is going to be the route you take you are going to find yourself on an angry chair again whining that casters are too powerful and the melees you made were a waste....it's just a matter of time.

If you want more strength for melees....do so without asking for a sacrifice to casters, If you can't do that be happy with your "very very temporary" re-acquirement of power.

Whatever...carry your own haste and rage pots.....make a whole bunch of SS and Displacement clickies, and if your WF'ed repair your freekin self......all things I contibrute as well as being the so called KS'er and killjoy.

Try playing with casters who are not so self centered...........before thinking you have the right to burn us all at the stake.

Jsbeer
12-06-2011, 05:59 PM
Why not make a competition out of this? The person who say player>>class makes a fighter, whereas the other who say that class>>player makes a wizard. Then we can see who is right ;)


P.s. Not 'really' serious, but it would be interesting....

P.p.s. My money is on the wizard ;)

Grace_ana
12-06-2011, 06:20 PM
Why not make a competition out of this? The person who say player>>class makes a fighter, whereas the other who say that class>>player makes a wizard. Then we can see who is right ;)


P.s. Not 'really' serious, but it would be interesting....

P.p.s. My money is on the wizard ;)

Because some people are better players with some classes than others. That's why you have people mad their melees aren't as good as their casters. It's not that melees are useless; it's that they don't play them as well. I prefer rogues myself, and I don't play any of my other toons as well as my rogue. Not even my casters. But the fault for that lies with me, not with the class.

And anyone that thinks fighters and monks are not useful is insane. I have played with some fantastic ones.

R0cksteady
12-06-2011, 06:20 PM
I am not sure if you were trying to use thrown as some kind of mockery...but I spelled it throne.

What's wrong is this is what gets us nowhere...strengthening the melees does not have to come at the cost of weakening the casters.

If this is going to be the route you take you are going to find yourself on an angry chair again whining that casters are too powerful and the melees you made were a waste....it's just a matter of time.

If you want more strength for melees....do so without asking for a sacrifice to casters, If you can't do that be happy with your "very very temporary" re-acquirement of power.

Whatever...carry your own haste and rage pots.....make a whole bunch of SS and Displacement clickies, and if your WF'ed repair your freekin self......all things I contibrute as well as being the so called KS'er and killjoy.

Try playing with casters who are not so self centered...........before thinking you have the right to burn us all at the stake.

Asking for a buff to melees to give any kind of balance is impossible without really stretching the rules.

Just add 10 DC to all combat feats and restoring the old, infinitely more useful animations/procs?

Double attack speeds for everyone?

Heal pots?

I don't see these things happening any time soon.

noinfo
12-06-2011, 06:30 PM
Introduction and what most of us who play the endgame a lot understand:
- High DC insta kills trivialize all non-immune endgame content to the point there is no challenge, and thus less fun. Mostly the issue is in the multi target spells, allowing casters to clear entire dungeons without much risk to the player, which without said class along in a group are otherwise ultra challenging.
- Most players don't like blanket immunities.
- Many characters are built around exploiting insta kills to their fullest possible extent and getting nerfed is no fun.


It is not the mass insta kills that trivialize end game its the easy mass healing and self healing available. The most game breaking spells in game are not wail, fod, pwk, cod etc they are mass heal, heal, reconstruct.

It has become expected that people could dump Ac or any defense except HP and expect to be fine, the fact that barbarians were for the longest time since grazing hits being the go to tank are an example of how broken this is. Load up on heal amp, hp, dps and sf pots or just get caught in the spray of a mass heal and you will be fine. If your a wf wiz or sorc or fs/cleric and get hit but not killed/stunned/tripped it makes no difference as you just lay down a quickened heal/recon and you are back up again, and yet people think its the instakil stuff that is the problem. Fix Ac, reduce healing (particulary self healing) and you will have the challenge you are after.

R0cksteady
12-06-2011, 06:35 PM
It is not the mass insta kills that trivialize end game its the easy mass healing and self healing available. The most game breaking spells in game are not wail, fod, pwk, cod etc they are mass heal, heal, reconstruct.

It has become expected that people could dump Ac or any defense except HP and expect to be fine, the fact that barbarians were for the longest time since grazing hits being the go to tank are an example of how broken this is. Load up on heal amp, hp, dps and sf pots or just get caught in the spray of a mass heal and you will be fine. If your a wf wiz or sorc or fs/cleric and get hit but not killed/stunned/tripped it makes no difference as you just lay down a quickened heal/recon and you are back up again, and yet people think its the instakil stuff that is the problem. Fix Ac, reduce healing (particulary self healing) and you will have the challenge you are after.

So not only should casters and divines be the classes that can self heal well (SF pots and if enough work put into it, heal scrolls don't cut it for the classes that take the most damage) be also the most powerful classes, but the melees have to lower their damage output even MORE to focus on defense and slow and painful self healing when they were already underpowered classes?

noinfo
12-06-2011, 06:55 PM
So not only should casters and divines be the classes that can self heal well (SF pots and if enough work put into it, heal scrolls don't cut it for the classes that take the most damage) be also the most powerful classes, but the melees have to lower their damage output even MORE to focus on defense and slow and painful self healing when they were already underpowered classes?

It should be obvious it is these classes self healing and mass healing that is the real source of the problem.
Without the ability to just shrug off damage you could expect significantly more cc and strategy.

As for melees not being able to cut it with self heals via sf pots that is rubbish. If my barb is not tripped/stunned he is not going to die via damage. 560+ hp per pot for no real side effect is rediculous for a non self healing class. Yep it costs plat but vendor trash can pay for that.

I know its terrible to think that melee might have to do something other than just stand and be hit and swing away but hey this thread is all about challenge.

Grace_ana
12-06-2011, 06:56 PM
So not only should casters and divines be the classes that can self heal well (SF pots and if enough work put into it, heal scrolls don't cut it for the classes that take the most damage) be also the most powerful classes, but the melees have to lower their damage output even MORE to focus on defense and slow and painful self healing when they were already underpowered classes?

Huh?

That makes no sense. If a divine is pausing to heal themselves or someone else, they are reducing their damage output as well. When I toss a heal scroll on my rogue or someone else, I'm reducing my damage output too. All classes play defense. And melees are not underpowered.

Havok.cry
12-06-2011, 07:00 PM
Didnt read whole thread, just OP, so sorry if this was covered.

How about instead of making it like you said in regards to mass instakill:
- extend casting time to equal a quickened summon monster
- don't allow them to be quickened.
- give them a huge +aggro to the caster while casting them, because the mobs realize they are all gonna die if they don't do something about it. Your stuff on mob aggression could fit here too.
- limit the number of targets to ~ 20 hit dice per caster level

I like this way because it gives it a feel of things from pnp, where caster starts something and his enemies have to try to stop him before it is too late. Making it interuptable can increase the use of party tactics like a tank holding aggro while a caster does his instakills.

Rodasch
12-06-2011, 07:22 PM
Interesting mechanic; I don't like it but I see where you're going.

I'd rather see this addressed by applying a chance for higher level monsters to spawn with appropriate gear - like wearing a deathblock item. This resolves the issue through existing D&D mechanics, and not creates a new system. Every time things go too far off the reservation it gets more and more borked away from D&D/D20. This just doesn't feel like D&D to me, and instead some random MMO construct.

Give mobs a chance to wear DW, scaling up by difficulty - I'm completely with you on that - scale by difficulty more than the challenge way.

It should also VARY, in that sense this is still a blanket. The humanoids should be gearing more than the animals / elementals - that's built into the CR versus HD assumptions the core rules make and as much as folks power-game and ignore flavor, rats shouldn't be deathwarded the same as Joe the Elite Guard.

This

Rodasch
12-06-2011, 07:31 PM
Just make wail and implosion limited to only killing 4 mobs at a time... and we're mostly done. Much easier fix.

No.

Target limiting these spells is not the answer. You think wail is bad in ddo? In PnP it's everyone who can HEAR it, which is a much bigger range.

There is no reason to limit the number of targets for wail beyond what it's range of effect already does.

The answer is to remove the hp cap on vorpal, and return vorpal to it's PnP roots where deathblock does not stop it, yet fortification has a chance to negate it, since it is in effect a "critical" effect that just happens to be a killing blow for anything with a head that can be killed by removing that head.

Then you can have more creatures spawn with deathblock gear and melees will be able to instakill those with vorpals while casters focus on the other stuff, making a fair and balanced system.

If they want a monster to be immune to vorpal they can set it as part of the archetype (such as for purple named).

Vorpal should have always been a separate effect from "death effects" from day one. No clue who got lazy and borked that, but it's caused a great deal of issues since then.

KillEveryone
12-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Your mechanic doesn't fix the problem. It makes it more complicated.

It would be better if they made a few more spells functional.

I'd like to see them redo how dispel, greater dispel, and disjunction work so that we are able to dispel buffs. I had hoped it would been done with the spell pass but it didn't get touched.

If they make the immunities breakable with disjunction...representing the gear they are wearing...I wouldn't mind seeing something like that on them but it would have to have some way that we as players can remove them.

If mobs buffed themselves, we would have to think a bit more tactically. Without FoM, run in and round up the mobs the mass hold and light a fire or drop ice blocks on them. Toss up a symbol of death to neg level the ones that break early. Hypno also helps keep them under controll.

Without death ward, round them up and wail, circle, and finger whatever is left. Can even mass hold if a few make saves.

There isn't much difference in difficulty between the two and both make the quests trivial.

If they buffed themselves, arcane types would be more reliant on melee types to have some kind of tactical feats to help with some CC. You'd see more builds actively working toward a reasonable tactical DC instead of full ****** DPS.

I've also thought about this from a rogue assassin. The assassinate ability isn't a magical ability. Death ward should probably be tweaked a little so that it blocks magical instant death or give rogues a poison that will knock out that deathward so they can use their ability. It isn't like they can actually spam the assassinate ability.

Rodasch
12-06-2011, 07:40 PM
While I agree with your post in general I would like to point out that dispel magic (and all it's other variants that
are in game greater dispel magic and mordekainen's disjunction) are sadly completely useless. The reason is you
make a caster level check, 1d20+caster level for mordekai (which is the best one the others have caster level
caps) vs. 11+caster level of spell. Since caster levels for enemy spells cast by casters (divines or arcanes) are
equal to the CR of the mob this means that even the casters in elite mindsunder already get undispellable
death ward (as their CR is 32 I think?) which means you have to beat 43 to dispel.

This is another problematic deviation from PnP that has broken a system that should have been balanced. In PnP, monsters caster levels are not equal to their CR, they are either equivalent to their class or racial HD (for classed monsters) or given a fixed caster level equivalence (such as "cast as a 15th level sorcerer") right in the monster description.

There's not so much problem with the lazy method of making it equal their cr when you have CR's that don't exceed player level by so much (as in PnP), but when you start making CR 30+ creatures just to "challenge" players without taking into account all the ramifications of that arbitrary decision, you break a balanced system.

In PnP, even a CR 30 Great Wyrm Red Dragon does not have a caster level 30.

CR is not a measure of "level" or hit dice, it's a measure of challenge. You can have a 10 hit die (10th level) monster that's CR 15 due to special abilities that artificially inflate it's difficulty and makes it more challenging than it's level.

The vast bulk of the "imbalance" issues in this game have stemmed from the deviations from PnP...deviating further to "fix" them is an exercise in futility and insanity.

sirgog
12-06-2011, 07:41 PM
Didnt read whole thread, just OP, so sorry if this was covered.

How about instead of making it like you said in regards to mass instakill:
- extend casting time to equal a quickened summon monster
- don't allow them to be quickened.
- give them a huge +aggro to the caster while casting them, because the mobs realize they are all gonna die if they don't do something about it. Your stuff on mob aggression could fit here too.
- limit the number of targets to ~ 20 hit dice per caster level

I like this way because it gives it a feel of things from pnp, where caster starts something and his enemies have to try to stop him before it is too late. Making it interuptable can increase the use of party tactics like a tank holding aggro while a caster does his instakills.

This would be fine too. Actually IMO a better solution than the OPs. Add in that the caster can't move while casting the spell and remove the 'cannot quicken' if you want.

Rodasch
12-06-2011, 07:43 PM
/signed, because Wail and the other AoE death spells are killing the game.

When the best thing a melee can do at endgame is swing a Cursespewer and hit 0 Fortification mobs with Improved Sunder, something is wrong.

It's not the aoe death spells killing the game, you should look past the trees to see the forest.

Havok.cry
12-06-2011, 08:17 PM
This would be fine too. Actually IMO a better solution than the OPs. Add in that the caster can't move while casting the spell and remove the 'cannot quicken' if you want.

The reason I specified the no quicken is so there was a chance for the mobs to interrupt the casting. If it can be quickened then it would still be casters wailtankking everything... it would just take a little longer. It's actually taken me a long time to think this stuff up. I primarily play a caster, and loved the spell pass, but when people actually made valid (imo) coherent arguments as to why it was OP I've been trying to think of how I would find it acceptable to change and still remain fun for me. IMHO a caster needing melee to protect him in order to be an OP instakiller is the just the other side of the coin as the melee needing the caster to CC in order to be the OP beatstick. I think my suggestion would also balance the 2 methods.

Xenostrata
12-06-2011, 08:21 PM
Or you could just make it so that creatures that die in an AoE insta kill effect can't drop scrolls.

Voila! Wail becomes an "oh ****" button, but is no longer king for epics because you don't want to ruin your scroll chances.

Edit: on the other hand, we could just spread the rumor that wailing reduces the chances for a scroll to drop.

Scraap
12-06-2011, 08:31 PM
Didnt read whole thread, just OP, so sorry if this was covered.

How about instead of making it like you said in regards to mass instakill:
- extend casting time to equal a quickened summon monster
- don't allow them to be quickened.

Sounds about right. I would point out circle of death already has this kinda going on as far as the casting time though. The animation may play as fast as wail, but the actual application of it is delayed enough so that you have to either catch them unawares, or wait till they won't be moving a bit in order to catch them in the circle. It's a far preferable move to things like enhanced cool-downs, since that just encourages gathering more up while you wait.

sirgog
12-06-2011, 08:41 PM
It's not the aoe death spells killing the game, you should look past the trees to see the forest.

It was after the AoE death spells were allowed in epics that a lot of endgame players started quitting. Nothing remained to pose a challenge in the game - all the quests you might have optimized a toon to beat before the nerf (epic Chains, Small Problem, many others) became trivial Wail-fests.

Player after player on Khyber quit during those days when there was nothing tough left, when it was 'be a very casual player, or there's nothing for you at all at 20'. Almost solely because of the death immunities going.

Postumus
12-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Nope. I see sucky casters and great casters. Player > class.



Wow. So you think taking a barbarian to L20 is just as easy as taking a pale master or favored soul to L20? Really?

voodoogroves
12-06-2011, 08:45 PM
It was after the AoE death spells were allowed in epics that a lot of endgame players started quitting. Nothing remained to pose a challenge in the game - all the quests you might have optimized a toon to beat before the nerf (epic Chains, Small Problem, many others) became trivial Wail-fests.

Player after player on Khyber quit during those days when there was nothing tough left, when it was 'be a very casual player, or there's nothing for you at all at 20'. Almost solely because of the death immunities going.

To be fair, player after player within one subculture of the player base. Important group maybe, but don't overstate the impact.

Yeah, the top may not be as challenged - but that may not reflect the vast majority of players.

gloopygloop
12-06-2011, 08:47 PM
Introduction and what most of us who play the endgame a lot understand:
- High DC insta kills trivialize all non-immune endgame content to the point there is no challenge, and thus less fun. Mostly the issue is in the multi target spells, allowing casters to clear entire dungeons without much risk to the player, which without said class along in a group are otherwise ultra challenging.


I'm confused. How will your suggestion fix the problem that you believe exists? It would make insta-kill slightly more annoying, but it wouldn't actually increase the risk from trash since those high DC casters are already kiting swarms of enemies during the Wail/Circle of Death cooldowns.

I'm not opposed to suggestions that would improve the game, but I don't understand how this would help the problem that you perceive even if that problem does exist.

Vellrad
12-06-2011, 10:38 PM
It was after the AoE death spells were allowed in epics that a lot of endgame players started quitting. Nothing remained to pose a challenge in the game - all the quests you might have optimized a toon to beat before the nerf (epic Chains, Small Problem, many others) became trivial Wail-fests.


Excuze me Sir, but what was challenging in mass hold+ autoattack fest?

Shade
12-06-2011, 10:56 PM
One change would make me happy with this solution.

Necromancy focues archmages should get the same bonus as sorcs to doom time reduction, and greater necromancy focus on an archmage would be equal to Palemasters in tier 3.

Archmages are already lesser than Palemasters, don't ask for a nerf that hits them a bit more than Palemasters.

Besides that, I like it. My wizard wouldn't be completely nerfed, and the game wouldn't be stupidly easy on epics.

They essentially do.
1 DC = -0.5second on doom.
Necro archmage:
Double necro focus, and +1dc bonus as part of the pre = -1.5 seconds, pretty close anyways. Add in wiz capstone +1 dc bonus over sorc, and thats -2 seconds.

But yea I agree, archmage is weaker then palemaster.. But this change would help remedy that, as the ONLY way to play would be just insta kill everything, an enchant spec archmage would actuall be a competitive style to use again. Or necro/enchant archmage combo.. Wail + dance/web vs the -5 weakened enemies tell they expire. Next level tactics, multiple specs, multi spells to win, a much more fun game then "push 1 button and win".

Shade
12-06-2011, 11:01 PM
It is not the mass insta kills that trivialize end game its the easy mass healing and self healing available. The most game breaking spells in game are not wail, fod, pwk, cod etc they are mass heal, heal, reconstruct.

It has become expected that people could dump Ac or any defense except HP and expect to be fine, the fact that barbarians were for the longest time since grazing hits being the go to tank are an example of how broken this is. Load up on heal amp, hp, dps and sf pots or just get caught in the spray of a mass heal and you will be fine. If your a wf wiz or sorc or fs/cleric and get hit but not killed/stunned/tripped it makes no difference as you just lay down a quickened heal/recon and you are back up again, and yet people think its the instakil stuff that is the problem. Fix Ac, reduce healing (particulary self healing) and you will have the challenge you are after.

Your kind of claiming the game was broken since... well forever. I mean AC has NEVER mattered in this game. I mean I figured that out in module 1 when i retired my AC rogue and started lvling Axer.

Im only claiming its balance got a bit wrecked in U9.. Somewhat less devastating and perhaps more believable claim.

Shade
12-06-2011, 11:03 PM
I'm confused. How will your suggestion fix the problem that you believe exists? It would make insta-kill slightly more annoying, but it wouldn't actually increase the risk from trash since those high DC casters are already kiting swarms of enemies during the Wail/Circle of Death cooldowns.
They aren't kiting them. They are already dead. Dead monsters don't need to be kiting. Kited monsters can still kill you, especially ones with increased damage and +25% movement speed.


I'm not opposed to suggestions that would improve the game, but I don't understand how this would help the problem that you perceive even if that problem does exist.
The problem does exist. Else this thread wouldn't of got 70 replies in a matter of a few hours. Thanks for all the support btw guys, good discussion.

It's a major problem that needs to be addressed. This is one idea.

Shade
12-06-2011, 11:11 PM
Shade is completely obsessed with tilting the balance in the favor of his two favorite characters, Axer and Obliterator, you can tell by his desire to give him a chance with his Barb in this mechanic to kill mobs before a Wizard can, and also making sure that no Wizard other than the most speced out PM can take it down before his Sorcerer can.
While I appreciate your support and do want you as a fan.. I think you should do your homework a lil better. Obliterator, for the majority of his carreer was imo, the ultimate necromancer. I use the best spells and exploit the games weakensses, and if that means I have to resort to insta kills, I'll do it.

So no, He already insta kills better and faster then most spec'd out PMs. He always has. This change won't change his status on those comparisons.. Just give me a playstyle thats more complex and imo, much more fun. 1 button to instantly kill an unlimited amount of enemies isn't fun, its brokenly overpowered.

I mean just search thru my post history.. I had the highest necromancy DC of anyone in the game and was proud of it at a time.. Here's the post:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=144982

I know necromancy. I've destroyed the game with those spells. It nerfs me in a way too, but its the least devastating way to do it imo. The only other option im hearing is blanket immunities, and they never seem popular or fun.



Since when does sorcerer faster casting actually strengthen a spell?
Devs seem to think it makes sense. Ever look a tthe sorc capstone? Wizards one doesn't do that. Palemaster will still be by far the best at necromancy with these changes, so I really don't get your point.

donfilibuster
12-06-2011, 11:15 PM
Hmm thread too long didn't read. Doom sounds too much of final fantasy, what D&D has for this is abjurations.

The foes need wards and protections just like us, but DDO just cut it short and set blanket immunities.
In D&D, getting defenses is easy because there's many ways to break them, DDO breaks this big time.
A fort item may be cheap but is useless if it'd get supressed by the first shaman casting dispel at you.

DDO dispel is underused, can't target dispel on items, disjunction is underused, even buggy, and the repertoire of other debuffs is small.
Furthermore many players get annoyed when dispel and disjunction is used on them.

Likewise there's no counterspells, presumibly on the basis that the monster would be dead way before casting.
But counterspell was a way of defense for both monsters and players, monsters would get the most use from it.

Without magic item suppresion all you have is a pile of unbreakable defenses, that even if you name them are no different than mere blanket immunities.
All that is left is to invent ways to reduce them like the rogues reducing fort or the undead ward reducing their fort.
That's like reinventing the wheel, when all that is need is to itemize the named mobs and let us play accordingly.

DDO both as a high magic campaing and a MMO is focused on offense rather than defense, but with great nukes come great buffs to match.
Magic can boost your AC just as much as damage and there's lack in this area as well, nor there's assay resistance, etc.
Let alone talk of antimagic spells and dead magic zones.

Granted, unsafe magic like abjurations/illusions/divinations/shapechanging/teleporting/shifting/flying/crafting/epiccasting is not quite allowed by the twelve in stormreach, but still.
When going to the dungeon the first thing one used to want is to counter the foe's arsenal.

noinfo
12-06-2011, 11:52 PM
Your kind of claiming the game was broken since... well forever. I mean AC has NEVER mattered in this game. I mean I figured that out in module 1 when i retired my AC rogue and started lvling Axer.

Im only claiming its balance got a bit wrecked in U9.. Somewhat less devastating and perhaps more believable claim.

Sorry you must have been taking a break when the tempest exploiter/monster builds were king of the hill and no one would bother playing barbs because they just killed to slow and were just plain mana sponges. No one wants to see it go back that way but to deny it is just a joke. Now along with grazing hits and rediculous mass healing and amp we have people complaining about something like wail and cod which have pretty signifcant cool downs and in the case of wail reqire you to be point blank with mobs, how are players able to kite for that time between wails and cod especially in enclosed spaces? Massive self healing. Unless they are tripped/stunned etc they are going to live and eventually kill the lot but it certainly wont be in a single hit like you would luv us all to believe, those DC 50 casters unless chugging abashai cookings and house d pots and probably store pots as well do not exist, its the equivalent of your 100+ strength barb, looks good on paper but try reaching those levels in a fight.

And now ballance only got a "bit wrecked"? You want challenge? Put heal/recon on the same timer as FOD and mass heal the same as COD/Wail and you might get more than you were after.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 12:10 AM
And now ballance only got a "bit wrecked"? You want challenge? Put heal/recon on the same timer as FOD and mass heal the same as COD/Wail and you might get more than you were after.

This right here is funny lol. You do realize that heal and mass heal are cleric/fvs spells while wail, fod, and cod are all sorc wiz spell??? all high level ones that you will never ever see on the same toon at the same time??? And that scrolls are on a different timer than spells so even a scroll healing mage wouldn't be effected???

sherbertmachine
12-07-2011, 12:25 AM
I don't think a spell/school specific nerf is the answer. Insta-kills are fine imo in epics, the instant death goes beyond spells and into class specific abilities like assassinate. Noinfo has a point as well with healing, and someone else mentioned showing a caster lots of love with the best equips, past lives, completionist etc has no real threat as well. If making epic feel "epic" again is the problem, here's some ideas I've been thinking about:

1) Worldwide cooldown increase for ALL spells in epic quests/raids only by 50% (could be circumvented by just crawling through epics/raids, but oh well)

2) Epic mobs have a 25% chance to ignore the quicken feat on striking (chances of spell failure). May increase to 45-75% for orange, red and purple nameds.

3) Various epic mobs can cause an arcane/divine spell failure debuff to be applied to you on striking (probably small like 2% each hit, stacks 5 times)

4) Epic mobs use combat feats more often (improved trip, stunning blow, hamstring, sap etc)

5) Epic mobs actually buff themselves lol (fom, deathward, GH, etc)

Vellrad
12-07-2011, 12:28 AM
2) Epic mobs have a 25% chance to ignore the quicken feat on striking (chances of spell failure). May increase to 45-75% for orange, red and purple nameds.


We already got this in game.
Theese are called trip, improved trip, stun, PWS, hold etc.
We just need more of them used more often (except trip/imp. trip, as doglike mobs are spamming this all day long already).

TDarkchylde
12-07-2011, 01:02 AM
It's balanced as-is.

Think of the rest of the playerbase. We're not you, Shade.

sherbertmachine
12-07-2011, 01:04 AM
I already had that listed as #4. Besides, the only reason I added the "ignore quicken" stuff was because the epic monsters notoriously don't act epic (combat feats, etc) so at least if turbine can't fix their AI, it was another idea.

mystafyi
12-07-2011, 01:19 AM
Think of the rest of the playerbase. We're not you, Shade.

The problem is the vast majority of the player base does not visit the forums, dump stats con, no heavy fort, no glf, 2 or more stat items on, ect ect.
balancing the game around the minority that have been playing for 5 years is insane and is a recipe for disaster.

I hate to be mean sounding, but let be realistic here.
If you can hit 100 str on your melee, you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if your bored.
If you can hit 46DC on your arcane, you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if your bored.
When you have completionist, 34 past lives, epics/greensteel, cannith weapons, et all, this game will be easy. you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if you are bored.

noinfo
12-07-2011, 01:23 AM
This right here is funny lol. You do realize that heal and mass heal are cleric/fvs spells while wail, fod, and cod are all sorc wiz spell??? all high level ones that you will never ever see on the same toon at the same time??? And that scrolls are on a different timer than spells so even a scroll healing mage wouldn't be effected???

I am sorry let me be clearer, same cool down period as those spells I was very unclear as to that when I said cooldown timer. So mass heal takes the same cool down time as wail and not that they share a timer. As for scrolls they are not affected by metas and can be interupted so am not as sure on those.

Denegrator
12-07-2011, 03:22 AM
Did you seriously just claim that what the poster proposed, giving a random chance for mobs to have deathblock,
tweakin saves and tweaking how often divines cast death ward is a TON of work compared to what you propose
which includes adding a completely new mechanic to the game? Are you even from this planet?

That a rhetorical question? Think he's from the E-peen system in Melee Alpha Majoris. :rolleyes:

But seriously though, you have to give him kudos for the effort he put into his idea, albeit a convoluted one, and just upping saves and more variety in spells mobs cast would probably be easier to code. :)

Ugumagre
12-07-2011, 03:25 AM
I guess there are quite a "few" players that want an easy epic completion. This meaning, the leader would say "do not use instakills or you get black listed". I wouldn´t like to have my mobs buffed for 30 seconds, really.
You could just make the mobs in elite immune to insta kills and use the devs time to fix REAL problems, not the boredom of OP.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 03:42 AM
I am sorry let me be clearer, same cool down period as those spells I was very unclear as to that when I said cooldown timer. So mass heal takes the same cool down time as wail and not that they share a timer. As for scrolls they are not affected by metas and can be interupted so am not as sure on those.

Ah, I misunderstood then, my apologies. Thanks for clarifying :) I'm not entirely sure what the heal/massheal cooldown is though. I know the mass instakills are ~30-45 seconds. Thought heal was shorter than that?

pHo3nix
12-07-2011, 05:29 AM
Have to post this again cause most people seem to ignore the easiest solutions:

-Take a healing bard and 5 melees and you won't have any problem with casters.
-Take casters that don't have 45 necro DC but got 45 enchantment or conjuration DC.
-Bring with you only healbots, they won't kill anything and will heal you while you kill everything, they could find it fun too :)

No need to change a single line of code, everything could work as you wish, no instakill at all, just haste/rage/displacement/heal and mass hold like in the old "glorious" days when epics were a lot more "difficult" and "fun" ;)

furbyoats
12-07-2011, 07:56 AM
hi...no

stop messing with stuff...just stop. you already complained and got fvs wings on a timer...which didnt make it harder to heal...just more ****** annoying, thanks for that.

as far as your suggested nerf to PMs, guess what...you nerf PMs and sorc will rule. you are going to complain until casters are pigeonholed into CC and buff only mode again. so lets say this doom timer is implemented...why would anyone even bother taking a wizzy into a group when all they are going to do is make things chaotic (unless they just hold the mobs...interesting). Youre just going to see sorcs spam web, ice storm, and slas....or hold+nuke. Melees will still be insignificant in regards to the damage output and that is how it should be.

arcanes rely on a blue bar, melees do not. if you want to ***** about this then ***** to remove mnemonics from the ddo store. quit messing with things that are not broken.

kthnxbai

/not signed

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 08:00 AM
And now ballance only got a "bit wrecked"? You want challenge? Put heal/recon on the same timer as FOD and mass heal the same as COD/Wail and you might get more than you were after.

You are truely an evil man.

I like the idea of remove the quicken feat myself.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 08:01 AM
We already got this in game.
Theese are called trip, improved trip, stun, PWS, hold etc.
We just need more of them used more often (except trip/imp. trip, as doglike mobs are spamming this all day long already).

I think we might have a winner . . .

delsoboss
12-07-2011, 08:08 AM
Wait what?

Are you serious about Mordenkainen Disjunction?!?

(checks the wiki)

... I can't believe they made a level 9 spell that in pnp is used to utterly destroy magic in a 12m spread (with a chance to overpower antimagic fields and erase artifacts) so bad ... i'm ok with the single target and long casting time but ... but ...

Ok, sorry for the derail, i'll take my desperation somewhere else.

OT probably if this spell wasn't so messed up they could add monsters buffbots to any epic encounter putting a real strain on sp conservation and the use of tactics during epic encounters but oh well ...

EDIT: Lol just read Grodon's signature, the Devs could make each epic mob killed by instakill spells drop Elite Seeking Shroud Blades of Doom, that would be funny.

ckorik
12-07-2011, 08:14 AM
I'd support this if they added a huge cooldown to heal, mass heals and cures - and put a 10 min debuff/cooldown on silver flame pots.

That might be sarcasm.... it might not. Simply put if the 'challenge' is only there for parties that have a 100 str barb that can beat stuff down - well then it would suck. I'd say I only get a barb in my groups ... 1 out of 70ish PUGS... I don't want to have to look for one just to run a quest.

I also think haste should have a long cooldown so it can't be spammed. Haste does more to overpower the game than wail...

/snark :)

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 08:18 AM
I'd support this if they added a huge cooldown to heal, mass heals and cures - and put a 10 min debuff/cooldown on silver flame pots.

That might be sarcasm.... it might not. Simply put if the 'challenge' is only there for parties that have a 100 str barb that can beat stuff down - well then it would suck. I'd say I only get a barb in my groups ... 1 out of 70ish PUGS... I don't want to have to look for one just to run a quest.

I also think haste should have a long cooldown so it can't be spammed. Haste does more to overpower the game than wail...

/snark :)

Yes . . . an 80-100 STR barbarian with spamable supreme cleave and magic potions that give almost full healing are balanced . . . yet insta-kills are OP.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 08:25 AM
I don't like the Doomed mechanic. Unless the party backs of and kites the mobs for the duration, it's basically worse than not casting the spell to begin with. 30 seconds is a long time.

However, I do think insta-kills need heavy modification. HP exists for a reason, and bypassing it entirely makes it extremely difficult to balance them with damage-dealing.

What I'd prefer: make all insta-kills into negative energy damage spells, Fort save for half, dealing damage commensurate with similar-level spells. However, they have a side effect. Whenever damage is dealt, if that damage is more than a third of the enemy's HP total (before the attack), they are instantly killed. If the damage is more than a sixth of the enemy's HP, they are stunned, and helpless, for 10 seconds. Otherwise, they are dazed (not helpless) for 5 seconds. Each point the save is failed by increases the divider for death by 10%, for stun by 20%, both additively. So a failure by 10 would mean death if the damage was more than a fourth of the enemy's remaining HP. Against players, the cutoff points would need to be adjusted, since player HP is not so inflated compared to damage.

To counterbalance this some, adjust Death Ward a bit: it still gives immunity to the side effects, but not immunity to negative energy. Just give it 30 point resist to negative energy. Let negative energy act more like elemental damage. It's already enough that undead and most constructs are immune.



Yes . . . an 80-100 STR barbarian with spamable supreme cleave and magic potions that give almost full healing are balanced . . . yet insta-kills are OP.

Against trash? The insta-kills are more effective, and present less danger to the character. So absolutely yes, insta-kills are OP compared to the Barb.

Now, casters have always been gods against trash. The reason why it's now a problem is that casters used to be bad against bosses. Now they're not, so Melee don't have that niche any more. So either Melee need to become competitive against trash, or we need to nerf caster effectiveness against bosses. I'd prefer a game where as many people as possible can contribute all the time, than the old "casters kill trash, melee kill bosses" balance, but even that would be better than the "casters do everything better than melee" we have now.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 08:26 AM
The problem is the vast majority of the player base does not visit the forums, dump stats con, no heavy fort, no glf, 2 or more stat items on, ect ect.
balancing the game around the minority that have been playing for 5 years is insane and is a recipe for disaster.

I hate to be mean sounding, but let be realistic here.
If you can hit 100 str on your melee, you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if your bored.
If you can hit 46DC on your arcane, you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if your bored.
When you have completionist, 34 past lives, epics/greensteel, cannith weapons, et all, this game will be easy. you have 'won' ddo. find a new game if you are bored.

This.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 08:29 AM
It's not the aoe death spells killing the game, you should look past the trees to see the forest.

Show me the forest, please... As far as I can tell, limit wail to only killing 4 mobs at a time, give DoTs a fort save, and we're done.

smatt
12-07-2011, 08:31 AM
This.


I'll agree with you, since agreeing wtih Mystafyi would cause me great mental anguish :D

They COULD simply place a random chance +5 to saves modifier on epic mobs, say 20%.... Make it a random chance for ALL epic mobs, so it's not predictible.... Other than that, meh... It's a bunch of blah blah :o

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 08:32 AM
I mean AC has NEVER mattered in this game.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Maybe you'd be less bored if you rolled up something besides a barbarian or a sorc...

Try an AC build, an arcane archer, a CHA-based turning cleric, etc.

You're not nearly as knowledgable about the ENTIRE game as you think you are.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 08:36 AM
Have to post this again cause most people seem to ignore the easiest solutions:

-Take a healing bard and 5 melees and you won't have any problem with casters.
-Take casters that don't have 45 necro DC but got 45 enchantment or conjuration DC.
-Bring with you only healbots, they won't kill anything and will heal you while you kill everything, they could find it fun too :)

No need to change a single line of code, everything could work as you wish, no instakill at all, just haste/rage/displacement/heal and mass hold like in the old "glorious" days when epics were a lot more "difficult" and "fun" ;)

Yeah, that's the funniest part... Epics are not a challenge now, but somehow they were challenging in the days of mass hold? How in the world was mass hold - hit with a heavy pick considered challenging?

It may have been more fun for the melees to see big numbers and do all the killing, but it certainly wasn't more challenging to kill mobs that couldn't hit back.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-07-2011, 08:42 AM
Change all multi-target insta kills from instant-death, to instant-doom.

NOOOO!

So Finger of Purgatory is replacing Finger of Death?

What a complete mark.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 08:45 AM
Yeah, that's the funniest part... Epics are not a challenge now, but somehow they were challenging in the days of mass hold? How in the world was mass hold - hit with a heavy pick considered challenging?

It may have been more fun for the melees to see big numbers and do all the killing, but it certainly wasn't more challenging to kill mobs that couldn't hit back.

Maybe not more challenging, but more fun for more people. Everyone had a role to play.

MysteryNotes
12-07-2011, 08:47 AM
Yeah, that's the funniest part... Epics are not a challenge now, but somehow they were challenging in the days of mass hold? How in the world was mass hold - hit with a heavy pick considered challenging?

It may have been more fun for the melees to see big numbers and do all the killing, but it certainly wasn't more challenging to kill mobs that couldn't hit back.

This says it all.

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:49 AM
Maybe not more challenging, but more fun for more people. Everyone had a role to play.

Requireing 2 players to kill something, vs a single player easily soloing somerhing, is automatically more challenging.

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:50 AM
NOOOO!

So Finger of Purgatory is replacing Finger of Death?

What a complete mark.

finger of death isn't a multi target insta kill.

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:51 AM
I don't like the Doomed mechanic. Unless the party backs of and kites the mobs for the duration, it's basically worse than not casting the spell to begin with. 30 seconds is a long time.


Thats the problem with the game. If your character is so 1 dimensional that all he can do is insta kill or kite.. The game is pretty lame and boring.

Use more then 1% of your brain and you could maybe htink of a solution:
Wail, then take advantage of the enemies severely weakened saves and CC them until dead.

Or GASP - Actually work with your other party members in killing things instead of constantly having to kill/kite everything in the dungeon yourself.

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:56 AM
Yes . . . an 80-100 STR barbarian with spamable supreme cleave and magic potions that give almost full healing are balanced . . . yet insta-kills are OP.

Yea DDO 101.

My character has no chance in hell of soloing Desert epics. Yet hundreds of casters have already done so, and some even did the raid..

Figure that out.

It's a ultra simple concept:
Press 1 button and win = EASYMODE.
Build a character that can:
A) Survive enemy attacks in melee range for prolongued periods
B) Handle massive -10 penalties to all stats cept con, and -50% movement speed
C) Still deal dps while under those penalties
D) Not kill yourself doing said dps, as spamming surpreme cleave deals insane self damage thats hard enough to survive with several clerics healing you, let alone solo
E) Not get utterly killed while under those penalties.

Yea it's balanced. As using SF potions on a character alreayd lacking in defense is just a plain death sentence in a ton of challenging content. My fully stonedskined, displaced, resiste,d max buffed caster kiting stuff around instakilling the whole room? It's a joke.

And my proposed changes wont change that, casters would still be soloing epics with 80% of what they cast be multi target insta kills. They'd just have to use a bit more SP and end up using a bit of CC 20% of the time to pacify their doomed enemies. A lot more balanced then the current: 99% insta kills, 1% buffs..

dkyle
12-07-2011, 09:03 AM
Thats the problem with the game. If your character is so 1 dimensional that all he can do is insta kill or kite.. The game is pretty lame and boring.

The point isn't what my characters can do. It's what your game mechanics encourage. And they encourage either kiting the mobs till the timer runs out, or just not using the spell because it helps your enemies more than it hurts them. +50% damage for -5 saves is not a good trade, and a 30 second timer might as well not exist at all if the rest of the party is working to kill the mobs.


Use more then 1% of your brain and you could maybe htink of a solution:
Wail, then take advantage of the enemies severely weakened saves and CC them until dead.

How about I use more than 2% and think of a better solution:

Forget wasting SP on Wail at all, and instead rely on Web, Disco, and Mass Hold. If I need help on the saves, we already have no-save spells to weaken Will (including some that an Archmage can SLA), and Reflex is generally low to begin with.


Or GASP - Actually work with your other party members in killing things instead of constantly having to kill/kite everything in the dungeon yourself.

I'd love to, provided the mechanics provide adequate support and benefit for doing so. I don't think your proposal does that. I think it actively discourages using instakills as part of a team.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 09:06 AM
Maybe not more challenging, but more fun for more people. Everyone had a role to play.

Well, here's the issue.... In every PUG epic I've done, all six people are contributing... I don't see any 47 DC PMs soloing epics while I read a book...

Maybe in the powergamer guild or channel groups, there may be an issue, but I'm not seeing it in PUGs.

When I play my wizard in epics, I use dancing ball, mass hold, Wail., and FoD.. I never get ALL the mobs, and I don't have the spell points to try to kill everything... so it's still a team effort.

You want a challenge? Start PUGing epics instead of piking with epic-geared 18th life completionist TRed PMs with +4 tomes, cookies, etc.

Pape_27
12-07-2011, 09:11 AM
Requireing 2 players to kill something, vs a single player easily soloing somerhing, is automatically more challenging.

No, not really. Because one of those people is relegated to casting a few cc spells and then just sitting around for the duration. Its not fun being in a quest just to be a buff bot. and it definately isnt challenging.


You want challenge? Change the game to allow gold seal hirelings into raids. Then bring a few hireling into epics and forgo a user driven wizard or divine. More fun for you and a win for everyone else who has to deal with the nerfs/changes you want/have forced into epic content, making near impossible for the next class of epic players to learn/defeat epic content.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Or GASP - Actually work with your other party members in killing things instead of constantly having to kill/kite everything in the dungeon yourself.

Seriously, sounds to me like you play with the wrong people.

Everyone I PUG with in epics, we work as a team... I'm very happy when a melee can kill a mob, so I don't have to waste SP.

mystafyi
12-07-2011, 09:14 AM
It's a ultra simple concept:
Press 1 button and win = EASYMODE

You are of course speaking of mass hold and auto-attack button right? :p:p

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 09:14 AM
Maybe not more challenging, but more fun for more people. Everyone had a role to play.

Roles:

1. MEH KILL!
2. BUFF MEH!!!
3. HJEAL MEH!!

Sure was fun for those in role 2 and 3 :)

I'll admit I had more fun heavy-picking the heck out of stuff on my ranger/kensai back when masshold and pick was the way to go, but I know many casters who ran up PLs, got ubber gear, etc . . . so they could be my hold-monkey?

That don't seem right either.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Well, here's the issue.... In every PUG epic I've done, all six people are contributing... I don't see any 47 DC PMs soloing epics while I read a book...

Maybe in the powergamer guild or channel groups, there may be an issue, but I'm not seeing it in PUGs.

When I play my wizard in epics, I use dancing ball, mass hold, Wail., and FoD.. I never get ALL the mobs, and I don't have the spell points to try to kill everything... so it's still a team effort.

Just because you don't literally solo the quest while everyone watches doesn't mean you're not OP. If a party would be significantly better of being full of Palemasters, than a mix of some melee, and some Palemasters, then there's a balance problem. And I believe that to be the case. Any task a melee wants to accomplish, except maybe tanking Elite Horoth, can be done better by a Palemaster.


You want a challenge? Start PUGing epics instead of piking with epic-geared 6th life TRed PMs with +4 tomes, cookies, etc.

Bad workaround to a problem with game balance. Besides, I doubt the Wizards I've run with are that well geared. Casters don't need much gear to outdo extremely well built and geared melee at almost everything.

Vanquishedfo
12-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Yea DDO 101.

My character has no chance in hell of soloing Desert epics. Yet hundreds of casters have already done so, and some even did the raid..

Figure that out.

It's a ultra simple concept:
Press 1 button and win = EASYMODE.
Build a character that can:
A) Survive enemy attacks in melee range for prolongued periods
B) Handle massive -10 penalties to all stats cept con, and -50% movement speed
C) Still deal dps while under those penalties
D) Not kill yourself doing said dps, as spamming surpreme cleave deals insane self damage thats hard enough to survive with several clerics healing you, let alone solo
E) Not get utterly killed while under those penalties.

Yea it's balanced. As using SF potions on a character alreayd lacking in defense is just a plain death sentence in a ton of challenging content. My fully stonedskined, displaced, resiste,d max buffed caster kiting stuff around instakilling the whole room? It's a joke.

And my proposed changes wont change that, casters would still be soloing epics with 80% of what they cast be multi target insta kills. They'd just have to use a bit more SP and end up using a bit of CC 20% of the time to pacify their doomed enemies. A lot more balanced then the current: 99% insta kills, 1% buffs..

lol what you describe above is known far and wide as the selfish barbarian build and you know it. LOL if your build even for the sake of great DPS needs one cleric let alone more then one to help heal you your build is so gimp its sad.

D&D in PnP had no place for warriors end game and thats a fact and no DM ever tried to nerf a wiz to make the stupid barb feel useful. Magic makes the world go round, and if you want to be a magical warrior play a frelling monk already.

as others have said its the fact so many think HP buffers and having a nannybot is the way to play taht brought DDO to its knees, and yes it is FACT that early DDO was terribly broken hence the fact it nearly failed and had to go FTP.

People do not pick a caster to play support, they dont pick clerics to play support, in PnP all play to fight and kil thier foes and adventure, often being seperated from thier group by a tactical DM, and left to fend for themselves. Self reliance was the rule, and asking for a heal from a player meant you got killed by a harm spell instead with no save.

Wowtards wont get that though and keep thinking that thier selfish playstyle where others exist to buff and heal you is all taht the game is about.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 09:22 AM
Bad workaround to a problem with game balance. Besides, I doubt the Wizards I've run with are that well geared. Casters don't need much gear to outdo extremely well built and geared melee at almost everything.

That's the real rub isn't it, what really makes people grumpy and cranky?


"I spent a lot of time and you didn't spend as much and it's not fair!"


To me, there are other ways to manage this ... such as creating a variety of enemies and situations that reward different capabilities.

Too often the response is "change it so I'm on top". I'd rather have multiple scenarios so that instead of dropping X down to raise Y up, we give places where each X, Y, Z, W, A, B and C can shine.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 09:24 AM
lol what you describe above is known far and wide as the selfish barbarian build and you know it. LOL if your build even for the sake of great DPS needs one cleric let alone more then one to help heal you your build is so gimp its sad.

So your answer is "don't play barbarians"? Then what's the point of having them in the game?

Also, I think you ignored the part where he self-heals with Silver Flame pots.


D&D in PnP had no place for warriors end game and thats a fact and no DM ever tried to nerf a wiz to make the stupid barb feel useful. Magic makes the world go round, and if you want to be a magical warrior play a frelling monk already.

And that's one of the worst things about 3.5 PnP. The game was not always so magic-dominated.

Basically, your post boils down "magic should be super awesome and do everything because it's magic". That's an absolutely terrible way to build a game. It makes for an boring game.

AndyD47
12-07-2011, 09:49 AM
I am sorry let me be clearer, same cool down period as those spells I was very unclear as to that when I said cooldown timer. So mass heal takes the same cool down time as wail and not that they share a timer. As for scrolls they are not affected by metas and can be interupted so am not as sure on those.

The only part of this whole thread I can get behind.

If it was up to me I'd nerf Heal,Mass Heal,and take Heal scrolls/SF healing pots out of the picture entirely.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 09:52 AM
That's the real rub isn't it, what really makes people grumpy and cranky?

"I spent a lot of time and you didn't spend as much and it's not fair!"

Is it really so hard to understand why having a balanced game with a wide variety of genuinely competitive options to choose from is a good thing, and makes the game more fun? Why do game balance discussions always get turned into accusations of jealousy?

Game balance in a game like this is basically about characters with similar amounts of advancement being able to contribute to similar degrees. If one class can do just about everything another class can do, but better, and with less advancement, that's a balance problem. That class becomes obviously better, and the game is less interesting because of it.


To me, there are other ways to manage this ... such as creating a variety of enemies and situations that reward different capabilities.

Too often the response is "change it so I'm on top". I'd rather have multiple scenarios so that instead of dropping X down to raise Y up, we give places where each X, Y, Z, W, A, B and C can shine.

That's one way to balance it, and what we had before U9 in those DoTs. Casters owned trash, and melee owned bosses. But now Casters are about as good at bosses, and even better at trash. Melee have no place to shine except possibly as tanks for the very nastiest bosses.

What I'd prefer is to have everyone be able to contribute in different, complementary, but essentially equally important ways, in most situations, instead of giving different people different places to be awesome, to the exclusion of others. Casters being bored during boss fights wasn't ideal.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 09:55 AM
Just make quicken not work in epics :)

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 09:57 AM
The only part of this whole thread I can get behind.

If it was up to me I'd nerf Heal,Mass Heal,and take Heal scrolls/SF healing pots out of the picture entirely.

It is too easy to heal in this game and it is too easy to self heal.

Please leave this as is. If they make healing too tough nobody would want to do it.

This is an entirely different can of worms.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 10:04 AM
Healing others should not get harder...

Healing yourself though maybe should be more difficult.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 10:07 AM
This... Like the House D epics with the drow and their high Spell Resistance... No PM is just walking through there, using Wail and Circle of Death.

Mix up the monsters we fight, so that some are easy for casters, and some are easy for melee (but tough on casters).

it's why EVON3 is the greatest quest in the game :)

Cyr
12-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Just make quicken not work in epics :)

I'm not a fan of blanket speciality rules for certain settings only. However, I could get behind something a little more interesting here...

New spell that enemy arcanes can have on their spell list...

Mordakanein's Spell Disruptor
Spell Level 7
Single Target
Long Range
Duration 60 seconds + 6 seconds per caster level
Saving Throw Will to Resist
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell disrupts magical forces as they build up within the target. This makes the use of more powerful metamagics have a chance of not applying to any spell cast by the user. This chance increases as more metamagics are applied to a spell. The chance of a metamagic not applying (but still using extra spell points) = 5% per spell level that the spell is effectively increased (4 for quicken, 3 for max, 2 for empower...) + 5% for every metamagic excluding this one that would be applied if no failures occur due to this spell. This works out to a 20% chance of quicken not being applied if it is the only metamagic to be applied.

This spell may be dispelled.

And another one for fun...

Greymantle
Spell Level 4
Single Target
Will to resist
Spell resistance applies
Duration 1 Min/CL

This spell reduces incoming positive healing by 50%. It may be dispelled normally and is also removed by greater restoration.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 10:13 AM
I'm half serious about the quicken thing. My caster is only level 17 and I don't have quicken yet and I'm finding that though Wail will kill everything in a room there are times when getting interrupted or tripped makes things a big bucket of suck for 30 seconds.

You wouldn't even have to nerf quicken, just find some way to have mobs try to interrupt caster more.

Thing is . . . right now it easy for a Wizard to gather up a bunch of mooks, throw CoD and then wail with no fear of interruption thanks to quicken. You'll take some hits but a reconstruct/neg energy burst later and you'll be fine.

What does every (smart) melee do when they run into a room with a caster in it? You go for them first and try to trip/stun that caster. What if EVERY mob in the game that got in melee range of a caster tried to trip it? Getting up close and personal wouldn't be feasible anymore.

Interesting post...

Yeah casters in D&D never ran into a mlddle of a group of mobs. Casters have always been the big cannon shooting from range...

Maybe we really do need to remove (or reduce) the amount of self-healing a caster can do. Or like you suggest, make it likely to be interrupted when trying to get that heal spell off.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 10:13 AM
They wouldn't even have to make quicken stop working in epics or do anything like that... they should just remove the "No interrupt" part of quicken. people can get concentration to prevent interruption.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 10:15 AM
Woot! this page has timetravel in effect!

EvilI
12-07-2011, 10:16 AM
Your kind of claiming the game was broken since... well forever. I mean AC has NEVER mattered in this game. I mean I figured that out in module 1 when i retired my AC rogue and started lvling Axer.

Im only claiming its balance got a bit wrecked in U9.. Somewhat less devastating and perhaps more believable claim.

From the relatively short time I've played the game, if you were claiming this about epics I'd agree with you 100%. I think if you came up with a smooth solution to the AC-issue you'd probably have the outspoken support of a vast majority of the forumites, as well as most of the non forum players. And, not entirley conicidentally, you would also give a major boost to the usability of melee toons all round. I'm not saying you could get anyone in power to listen, per se, but at leat you'd get the satisfaction of knowin that you worked for a good cause.

P.S. I postulate the reason casters seem overpowered in epics as being that all mobs (including complete trash) hit like lorries and never miss. Therefore if we give the mobs immunity to anything, it should be all forms of ongoing enchantment effects and mental compulsions. Then give them all true seeing and evasion to boot. That would level the field between melee and casters more than a return of a blanket deathblock. Try it on any of the current epics for a thought experiment. D.S.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 10:16 AM
I'm half serious about the quicken thing. My caster is only level 17 and I don't have quicken yet and I'm finding that though Wail will kill everything in a room there are times when getting interrupted or tripped makes things a big bucket of suck for 30 seconds.

You wouldn't even have to nerf quicken, just find some way to have mobs try to interrupt caster more.

Thing is . . . right now it easy for a Wizard to gather up a bunch of mooks, throw CoD and then wail with no fear of interruption thanks to quicken. You'll take some hits but a reconstruct/neg energy burst later and you'll be fine.

What does every (smart) melee do when they run into a room with a caster in it? You go for them first and try to trip/stun that caster. What if EVERY mob in the game that got in melee range of a caster tried to trip it? Getting up close and personal wouldn't be feasible anymore.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 10:16 AM
That's the real rub isn't it, what really makes people grumpy and cranky?


"I spent a lot of time and you didn't spend as much and it's not fair!"


To me, there are other ways to manage this ... such as creating a variety of enemies and situations that reward different capabilities.

Too often the response is "change it so I'm on top". I'd rather have multiple scenarios so that instead of dropping X down to raise Y up, we give places where each X, Y, Z, W, A, B and C can shine.

This... Like the House D epics with the drow and their high Spell Resistance... No PM is just walking through there, using Wail and Circle of Death.

Mix up the monsters we fight, so that some are easy for casters, and some are easy for melee (but tough on casters).

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 10:24 AM
Maybe we really do need to remove (or reduce) the amount of self-healing a caster can do. Or like you suggest, make it likely to be interrupted when trying to get that heal spell off.

The self-healing robot/lich is the problem, not the nuking and/or insta-killing ability that rivals the wrath of gods. But this is too big of a change for us ever to see in DDO. Just have EVERY melee try to trip them.



Healing yourself though maybe should be more difficult.

In and ideal game yes, but we're talking drastic changes here. The D&D played back in the PnP days was about damage avoidance, not absorption and "HJEAL MEH!" because heals were all touch spells and even getting one in combat was very complicated. Defense (AC, DR, whatever) would have to be viable for ALL Classes for this big of a change to happen in DDO, I think that bell has been wrung and changing this

The whole MMO thing of "DPS-tank-heal" was the stupidest thing ever thought of, whoever though of this paradigm hopefully will die in a fire. I've even seen people planning on using this in a STARSHIP COMBAT GAME. that is beyond stupid, anyone who's ever played SFB/SFC will know what works best for that.

But it's what we have and would be too much to change.

What I would love to see though is content not balanced on needing hundreds of heal scrolls to complete or with a stupid kiting mechanic where the best option is stalling mobs by running around in a circle. Whoever thinks this is fun should be fired from Turbine.

Chai
12-07-2011, 10:30 AM
All they have to do to balance it out is limit wail and any other instant kill spell to 3 targets. Thats it. There need not be any overhaul of how mass death spells work, other than limiting the number of mobs they kill.

Wail is the same opportunity cost as heightened FOD for instance, and has the same DC, so limiting it to 3 kills per cast is still making it 3x as powerful as FOD for the same cost.

One thing I am sick and tired of though, is people putting up an LFM and then demanding my caster has a 44 DC or I cant join. Then the hypocrites get their panties all up in a knot because that DC happens to be in necromancy and not enchantment.

No, no, no, I dont want YOU to kill all the mobs. I wanted you to hold them all in place so they cant harm me while I kill them all using melee weapons. This is what we call "game balance?" Is this what we call "fun?" The content is still just as trivial, it just needs a melee to smack it a few times to kill it instead.

Then they wonder why we just solo farm on our casters. LOL.

Vellrad
12-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Maybe not more challenging, but more fun for more people. Everyone had a role to play.

By play, do you mean press 1 button (mass hold for casters, autoattack for melees) and go AFK?


Requiring 2 players to kill something, vs a single player easily soloing somerhing, is automatically more challenging.

In old times melees was not required to kill, sometimes, it was even faster to beat on held mobs with dreamspitters.
6 casters was doing it just fine ;)


They wouldn't even have to make quicken stop working in epics or do anything like that... they should just remove the "No interrupt" part of quicken. people can get concentration to prevent interruption.

But actually no interrupt is the only reason to take quicken.
Think of it as of extend nerf.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 10:38 AM
Is it really so hard to understand why having a balanced game with a wide variety of genuinely competitive options to choose from is a good thing, and makes the game more fun? Why do game balance discussions always get turned into accusations of jealousy?

Game balance in a game like this is basically about characters with similar amounts of advancement being able to contribute to similar degrees. If one class can do just about everything another class can do, but better, and with less advancement, that's a balance problem. That class becomes obviously better, and the game is less interesting because of it.


Soooo, barbarians need to be nerfed because they are vastly superior at tactical feats than fighters, rangers, monks, and well anyone else in the game. I'm sorry but some classes are just better than others at stuff. Barbarians are great at beating something, but should never even remotely compare to a person who has mastered the magic of death itself. Alot of the suggestions I have seen do not balance the issue of caster power any way, they just swing it in melee's favor. Balance would mean both sides of the issue still have fun. most of what we hear though, has the other side of the issue saying that would not be fun. Until you get something that both sides find acceptable you won't find balance.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 10:56 AM
But actually no interrupt is the only reason to take quicken.
Think of it as of extend nerf.

Quicken, as the name implies, should be only for casting stuff faster. It should not (in my opinion only) make you immune to being interupted. Alot of people might drop it if they changed it like that though, I agree.

WruntJunior
12-07-2011, 10:58 AM
Interesting post...

Yeah casters in D&D never ran into a mlddle of a group of mobs. Casters have always been the big cannon shooting from range...

Maybe we really do need to remove (or reduce) the amount of self-healing a caster can do. Or like you suggest, make it likely to be interrupted when trying to get that heal spell off.

Slight point...one reason casters in PnP don't run into groups of mobs is that their best spells don't have to center on themselves (for example, Wail is a close-range spell...at level 20, a caster can cast it 75 feet from themselves)

Chai
12-07-2011, 11:05 AM
Soooo, barbarians need to be nerfed because they are vastly superior at tactical feats than fighters, rangers, monks, and well anyone else in the game. I'm sorry but some classes are just better than others at stuff. Barbarians are great at beating something, but should never even remotely compare to a person who has mastered the magic of death itself. Alot of the suggestions I have seen do not balance the issue of caster power any way, they just swing it in melee's favor. Balance would mean both sides of the issue still have fun. most of what we hear though, has the other side of the issue saying that would not be fun. Until you get something that both sides find acceptable you won't find balance.

This hits the nail right on the head.

People dont like it when the caster kills everything, but they dont seem to mind when the caster makes it trivial for them to kill it all.


The self-healing robot/lich is the problem, not the nuking and/or insta-killing ability that rivals the wrath of gods. But this is too big of a change for us ever to see in DDO. Just have EVERY melee try to trip them.

Too big of a change compared to what? Nerfing melee into oblivion by changing the animations? I think the single largest reason casters are so powerful is because they do not need support from anyone else in the group. I believe bringing casters back into the fold of needing group support will put an end to melee moaning over class balance issues.

Most classes who are very powerful outside the group still benefit by supporting the group and the group supporting them and thus are more powerful under those conditions. Its getting to the point where casters receive minimal benefit from the group supporting them as they are completely self sufficient on their own to the point of hilarity.

Cant remove divine casters self healing though, heh. They are almost as powerful as arcane when built and played properly.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 11:15 AM
By play, do you mean press 1 button (mass hold for casters, autoattack for melees) and go AFK?

The game has never worked that way.

And besides, it's more "play" than hit one button, and everything is dead, move on.


Soooo, barbarians need to be nerfed because they are vastly superior at tactical feats than fighters, rangers, monks, and well anyone else in the game.

Huh? That's not even remotely true. Monks blow them out of the water in tactics feats. And Fighters are very competitive. Fighter/Monks are the best tactical feat users. And tactics feats are pretty minor anyway compared to what spell casters can do.


I'm sorry but some classes are just better than others at stuff.

As it should be. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. The problem is casters are better (or at least as good) at almost everything than melee.


Barbarians are great at beating something, but should never even remotely compare to a person who has mastered the magic of death itself.

This is a flavor argument. Not a game design argument. A world where magic is all powerful, and a sword can't compare, might make for a decent book or movie, but makes for a lousy game where people play sword users. Therefore, the Devs should opt for a world where magic and melee are good at different things in different ways, but ultimately contribute to a similar degree.


Alot of the suggestions I have seen do not balance the issue of caster power any way, they just swing it in melee's favor. Balance would mean both sides of the issue still have fun. most of what we hear though, has the other side of the issue saying that would not be fun. Until you get something that both sides find acceptable you won't find balance.

Then feel free to make suggestions. But, frankly, I think we could completely eliminate insta-kills altogether, and playing a caster would still be fun. Not that I want to do that, as it would gut Palemaster, but I think you're overstating the degree of impact the solutions discussed in this thread would have.


People dont like it when the caster kills everything, but they dont seem to mind when the caster makes it trivial for them to kill it all.

I did mind. Just less than what we have now.

Caster holds everything, melee kills it, is, to me, blatantly better than Caster kills everything, melee pike. Not ideal, of course, but better. Just because I think it's less bad doesn't mean I think it's great.

Doxmaster
12-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Forums ate my post.
Why???

Shade
12-07-2011, 11:21 AM
By play, do you mean press 1 button (mass hold for casters, autoattack for melees) and go AFK?



In old times melees was not required to kill, sometimes, it was even faster to beat on held mobs with dreamspitters.
6 casters was doing it just fine ;)


You kind of contradict yourself imediately.

If the casters beating on a mob with a dreamspitter, he can hardly go afk.

And if multiple players are beating on a mob, its still a lot more fun and challenging then press 1 button and win.

Melee combats a huge part of the game, if you find it boring.. Well too bad, its a core mechanic of the game.

With the helpless change, its hardly required anyways.

A good caster would instead do:
Mass Hold:
DBF/Ottilukes, hit monsters for 4000 dmg and win.

The advantage to this approach is it stacks with other classes. If the 4k doesnt kill the mob, the melee can contribute some more dps and help. That and it requires a ton more gear and skill to accurately nuke at the highest lvls, then to insta kill.

Clearing an entire room in a split second on the hardest difficulty isnt a core mechanic.

Say what you want, but getting a high necro DC palemaster isnt hard. It's trivial. I can make a brand new account, lvl one up in a under a week, get any one of a hudnred players I know to make me a greater necromancy crafted item, and already my DCs to the point where 75% of the time most epic monsters cant save against my wail. It's utterly trivial and stupid.

gloopygloop
12-07-2011, 11:30 AM
Say what you want, but getting a high necro DC palemaster isnt hard. It's trivial. I can make a brand new account, lvl one up in a under a week, get any one of a hudnred players I know to make me a greater necromancy crafted item, and already my DCs to the point where 75% of the time most epic monsters cant save against my wail. It's utterly trivial and stupid.


Breakdown, please?

My WF Pale Master has a 41 DC and it took me longer than a week to get him there and I'm not seeing 75% of epic monsters fall before a single Wail.

What DC does your week old Pale Master have that you're killing 75% of the epic monsters with a single Wail?

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 11:32 AM
I'm half serious about the quicken thing. My caster is only level 17 and I don't have quicken yet and I'm finding that though Wail will kill everything in a room there are times when getting interrupted or tripped makes things a big bucket of suck for 30 seconds.

Quicken is a tax that covers the "casting on the defensive" basic rule that DDO hasn't implemented, as well as readied actions.

Serious casters in PNP are NEVER interrupted.

Also, concentration checks would need to scale - the DC = damage in a game where HP is basically double to quadruple what the skill check was based on has a different scale of incoming damage.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 11:38 AM
Too big of a change compared to what? Nerfing melee into oblivion by changing the animations? I think the single largest reason casters are so powerful is because they do not need support from anyone else in the group. I believe bringing casters back into the fold of needing group support will put an end to melee moaning over class balance issues.

Cant remove divine casters self healing though, heh. They are almost as powerful as arcane when built and played properly.

And this is why "killing self healing" isn't the answer either. I didn't multi-quote Junk, but note your non-self-healing caster doesn't have quicken ... and still you can run the table.

Bring the golem's immunity to magic back. Add more variety where some monsters (not all, some ... and random) have undispellable resists/immunities (ie, like they were wearing gear). Make some areas or monsters create balance, DEX or STR checks (trips).

Sure, you can self heal ... and that's a major draw to many players - the ability to self heal. What you can't do is "eliminate all threats and bypass all obstacles" ... you need a team for that.

Let the self-healers build for that - recognize that many people make that choice because that (self healing) is more important to them than just DPS. Self healing is defense, it just works better than AC. The issue is we need to be attacked in more ways and we need to have some foes and challenges that require a team effort (and not "you pike over there") because the obstacles are resistant to magic, vulnerable to physical attacks, rebound spells, whatever.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 11:44 AM
Huh? That's not even remotely true. Monks blow them out of the water in tactics feats. And Fighters are very competitive. Fighter/Monks are the best tactical feat users. And tactics feats are pretty minor anyway compared to what spell casters can do.

As it should be. I don't think I've ever said otherwise. The problem is casters are better (or at least as good) at almost everything than melee.

This is a flavor argument. Not a game design argument. A world where magic is all powerful, and a sword can't compare, might make for a decent book or movie, but makes for a lousy game where people play sword users. Therefore, the Devs should opt for a world where magic and melee are good at different things in different ways, but ultimately contribute to a similar degree.

Then feel free to make suggestions. But, frankly, I think we could completely eliminate insta-kills altogether, and playing a caster would still be fun. Not that I want to do that, as it would gut Palemaster, but I think you're overstating the degree of impact the solutions discussed in this thread would have.


1- barbarians can get an insane strength score allowing their DCs to blow monk/fighter DCs out of the water... by alot.

2- when was the last time you saw an arcane caster tank horoth or lob for a party? melee's take the hits that casters cant and keep going. melees have reliable continuous damage that doesn't cost TP. melee can drink SF pots to keep that up that they can grind out with favor... where were those favor sp pots again?

3- it is a game, based on a specific universe... with flavor. flavor arguments are as valid as balance arguments.

4- I did, and alot of the people arguing against you aproved of what I suggested... let me repost it for you:



How about instead of making it like you said in regards to mass instakill:
- extend casting time to equal a quickened summon monster
- don't allow them to be quickened.
- give them a huge +aggro to the caster while casting them, because the mobs realize they are all gonna die if they don't do something about it. Shade's stuff on mob aggression could fit here too.
- limit the number of targets to ~ 20 hit dice per caster level

I like this way because it gives it a feel of things from pnp, where caster starts something and his enemies have to try to stop him before it is too late. Making it interuptable can increase the use of party tactics like a tank holding aggro while a caster does his instakills.

and:


The reason I specified the no quicken is so there was a chance for the mobs to interrupt the casting. If it can be quickened then it would still be casters wailtankking everything... it would just take a little longer. It's actually taken me a long time to think this stuff up. I primarily play a caster, and loved the spell pass, but when people actually made valid (imo) coherent arguments as to why it was OP I've been trying to think of how I would find it acceptable to change and still remain fun for me. IMHO a caster needing melee to protect him in order to be an OP instakiller is the just the other side of the coin as the melee needing the caster to CC in order to be the OP beatstick. I think my suggestion would also balance the 2 methods.

A few people commented that they liked my suggestion.

Chai
12-07-2011, 11:45 AM
Clearing an entire room in a split second on the hardest difficulty isnt a core mechanic.

This is incorrect. Mass death spells have been core since the mid 70s. In the presence of a wizard, a good player in any D&D game will not group up with the other players in close proximity. To do so is just asking to be AOE'd to death. The AI in this game, which can be strangled with a cordless phone, is part of the issue, as it seems to be more than happy to group up in the middle of a large room to be sent straight to bovine university.


Say what you want, but getting a high necro DC palemaster isnt hard. It's trivial. I can make a brand new account, lvl one up in a under a week, get any one of a hudnred players I know to make me a greater necromancy crafted item, and already my DCs to the point where 75% of the time most epic monsters cant save against my wail. It's utterly trivial and stupid.

I can roll up a WF AM enchant that has the same DC, which makes content just as trivial and formulaic, and has better self healing than a PM. We dont seem to mind that though, because instead of killing the mobs itself, it props the mobs up so the melee can kill them without allowing the mobs to fight back. I disagree with calling this "giving melee the ability to contribute."

The REAL issue that makes casters OP is their ability to not require any support from the group. Nerfing mass death spells will just make it take longer to farm scrolls solo. If casters had mass death spells and no way to heal themselves outside of wands and pots, (ala P&P) they would require support of other members in the group to succeed. Since they do not require support of other group members in DDO, nerfing mass death does nothing to mitigate the "this game isnt fun for melee" statement you keep making.

Once the nerf you keep calling for happens, all of us who play a wizard will just TR to a sorc, and instead of clearing rooms with wail, we will clear rooms with an AOE damage spell or two. There will be no difference in the end result other than the spell used to clear the room. Will you be calling for AE nukes to be nerfed next?

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 11:51 AM
The REAL issue that makes casters OP is their ability to not require any support from the group. Nerfing mass death spells will just make it take longer to farm scrolls solo. If casters had mass death spells and no way to heal themselves outside of wands and pots, (ala P&P) they would require support of other members in the group to succeed. Since they do not require support of other group members in DDO, nerfing mass death does nothing to mitigate the "this game isnt fun for melee" statement you keep making.

Half agree, half not.

You're focused solely on healing. In the games I play in P&P EVERYONE carries pots and they heal a chunk more of your % HP total than they do in D&D because HP isn't scaled out of whack.

Your point about "they don't need support" is valid - but you're only attacking one aspect - the self-healers of the world.

I'd rather the obstacles are things that can't be tackled by anyone and everyone easily. I want to see different tactics rewarded, not a hit to self-healers.

BTW is Ayspam carrying quicken? Is she a self-healer? Junk, is your new wizard really limited by the ability to self heal or not?



Yes - add ways to require or incent "support" - removing self healing I believe is the wrong way to handle it.



I'll turn it around - when and why is "self healing" really that game breaking? Compare and contrast to running an epic where you're UMDing scrolls or maybe you bring along a pocket healer. Is the problem the healing, or is the problem that the obstacles are overcome by a too-limited set of tactics?

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Clearing an entire room in a split second on the hardest difficulty isnt a core mechanic
No, ensuring you go first ... taking multiple turns stopping time if you have to ... and ensuring the other side doesn't get to act so the battle is done in one round is more core to power gaming D&D.

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 11:53 AM
Breakdown, please?

My WF Pale Master has a 41 DC and it took me longer than a week to get him there and I'm not seeing 75% of epic monsters fall before a single Wail.

What DC does your week old Pale Master have that you're killing 75% of the epic monsters with a single Wail?

My wizard can't quickly solo epics just using wail and circle of death. I have a 43 DC, and I probably DO see around a 65%-75% success rate (assuming low SR mobs). But that's not enough to solo epics without issue. SP is still a limiting factor.

And note that wail only worked on mobs at close range. That caster, and those archers? They didn't get in close like the others. I have to pick them off individually which costs more SP... And then I still have to wait for my timer to try wail again on the three melee who saved and who are chasing me around....

It's just 10x easier to take a full group in, kill some with wail, finger the caster, dance or hold the rest, and let the melee kill them. It's faster, I don't run out of SP, and it's more fun.

Qezuzu
12-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Wail is the only broken spell, if any. Other sources of instant kill are fine. The problem isn't high DC Palemasters; it's high DC wails that can kill an entire room of mobs every 30 seconds.

MY suggestion: have Wail give a brutal DoT effect, which lasts until death. Damage is based on how much the mob failed its save.

Roll a 1: Slain instantly
Damage is (50*(amount failed+1))d6 untyped damage every four seconds. Not affected by effects that boost damage. No initial tick, like the two level five DoT's.

So, if a mob rolls a modified roll of 35 vs. a wail DC of 43, they'll take 450d6 damage every four seconds. That's about 1,500 average damage, which will kill nearly any epic mob within 20 seconds.

Being Wailed is a very traumatic experience; affected mobs also take severe penalties to movement and attack speed, as well as being more vulnerable to physical damage (20% higher damage from physical attacks).

There: Palemasters are still powerful, and melees can have something to beat on to help make the quest faster. An epic mob that only takes 150d6 every four seconds will take awhile to die. The movement penalty means that Palemasters can more or less ignore Wailed mobs as they slowly die.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 11:55 AM
My wizard can't quickly solo epics just using wail and circle of death. I have a 43 DC, and I probably DO see around a 65%-75% success rate (assuming low SR mobs). But that's not enough to solo epics without issue. SP is still a limiting factor.

And note that wail only worked on mobs at close range. That caster, and those archers? They didn't get in close like the others. I have to pick them off individually which costs more SP... And then I still have to wait for my timer to try wail again on the three melee who saved and who are chasing me around....

It's just 10x easier to take a full group in, kill some with wail, finger the caster, dance or hold the rest, and let the melee kill them. It's faster, I don't run out of SP, and it's more fun.

This.

Chai
12-07-2011, 12:01 PM
And this is why "killing self healing" isn't the answer either. I didn't multi-quote Junk, but note your non-self-healing caster doesn't have quicken ... and still you can run the table.

Bring the golem's immunity to magic back. Add more variety where some monsters (not all, some ... and random) have undispellable resists/immunities (ie, like they were wearing gear). Make some areas or monsters create balance, DEX or STR checks (trips).

Sure, you can self heal ... and that's a major draw to many players - the ability to self heal. What you can't do is "eliminate all threats and bypass all obstacles" ... you need a team for that.

Let the self-healers build for that - recognize that many people make that choice because that (self healing) is more important to them than just DPS. Self healing is defense, it just works better than AC. The issue is we need to be attacked in more ways and we need to have some foes and challenges that require a team effort (and not "you pike over there") because the obstacles are resistant to magic, vulnerable to physical attacks, rebound spells, whatever.

A caster that has no self healing would require support from the group in order to succeed. As it stands right now, they do not. In D&D the "balance" to casters who have the best offense in the game is that they have no direct way to gain back lost HP. They have to be very careful. Here in DDO that isnt the case. We can hurl ourselves into scads of mobs and cast wail and let our auras heal up the HP lost, or toss a repair spell if needed. DDO didnt lose balance when casters gained mass death spells - it lost balance when self healing necromantic robots from mars became the staple caster build.

There is hardly any risk of dying playing a caster in most case scenarios, and this is the single biggest thing that makes them OP. Its not their offense, but their defense that causes the issue.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 12:06 PM
1- barbarians can get an insane strength score allowing their DCs to blow monk/fighter DCs out of the water... by alot.

DC isn't everything. Wraps users are at a huge advantage for tactics. And between Kensai and other enhancements, a Fighter can get enough DC to be almost as good, in practice, as a Barb.


2- when was the last time you saw an arcane caster tank horoth or lob for a party? melee's take the hits that casters cant and keep going. melees have reliable continuous damage that doesn't cost TP.

As I've mentioned a few times in this thread, melee do have a very tiny niche in tanking the absolute nastiest bosses. That is not enough. Most people in a Raid aren't tanking.


melee can drink SF pots to keep that up that they can grind out with favor... where were those favor sp pots again?

Wow... comparing SF pots to SP pots... there's no comparison. SF pots give melee the barest shadow of what SP gives casters.


3- it is a game, based on a specific universe... with flavor. flavor arguments are as valid as balance arguments.

It's whatever universe the devs choose to create. They're not beholden to anyone else's ideas of how the world should work. And "Magic uber alles" is not an inherent part of all D&D flavor; it's a side effect of an edition with broken magic rules.

Flavor is always mutable. Game design makes a game good; flavor is support. Choosing a flavor that makes for a bad game is just a bad choice. And flavor arguments are pointless because there's no real basis for them. Game mechanics are facts about actual things that exist.

For example, it's like making a Harry Potter MMO... where the majority of the available classes, items, and character building options are for Muggles. That would be a bad design. Who would play a Muggle in that world? And thus all that stuff goes to waste. In any actual Harry Potter MMO, the right way to design it would to have everyone be Wizards, or magical creatures of some sort.

So in DDO, if the intent truly is that magic is the greatest and most powerful, then the game design should embrace that. Everyone should be magic users, and leave swords to NPC "muggles".


4- I did, and alot of the people arguing against you aproved of what I suggested... let me repost it for you:

Fair enough. My concern there is it still heavily impinges on melee DPS, which is the bulk of the options available for melee. Giving more use to a tank is nice, but a group normally can't effectively use more than one or two tanks.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 12:08 PM
A caster that has no self healing would require support from the group in order to succeed. As it stands right now, they do not. In D&D the "balance" to casters who have the best offense in the game is that they have no direct way to gain back lost HP. They have to be very careful. Here in DDO that isnt the case. We can hurl ourselves into scads of mobs and cast wail and let our auras heal up the HP lost, or toss a repair spell if needed. DDO didnt lose balance when casters gained mass death spells - it lost balance when self healing necromantic robots from mars became the staple caster build.

Maybe ... but I've watched a ton of vids of fleshy sorcs soloing epics and late game quests ...

I say, let the wail not work all the time. Give some random mobs deathblock items. Have the casters cast DW on folks. Increase the cooldown on wail. Maybe increase the cost of the PM lines so that you can't amp as much elemental damage, meaning you are specialized.

The human sorcs are/were doing this too, right? With no class-based self healing ... it is unneccessary if you can push it so lots of things die to your spells, there's less to worry about.

Most peoples answer is to raise the DCs ... which puts that role out of reach for newer, less geared players ... a blanket nerf. Or maybe to really impair self healing so those people who actively took a class that has less straight up direct DPS and traded for some resiliency get hit in one of the prime areas they chose their class.

I say, make some things resistant to that wail. Let there be a chance some of the mobs are still standing and you're in the middle of them. Make us UNSURE of the outcome, and we'll rely on others as our backup.

smatt
12-07-2011, 12:10 PM
If people WANT to be challenged.... Dump the 57 Epic item, 30 TR toons and start fresh..... There, your challenge request has been filled.....

It makes NO sense tuning the game to the 5% crowd.... Period.... It's bad economics.... That's the failure of the Epics, tune them to the 5% crowd, the rest of the players don't touch them, tone them down to say the 20-30% crowd, which makes them viable from a development stand point and the 5% crowd complains....

It's a no win so don't try..... If players WANT to be challenged they easily can be... Set your own limits.. Just like the OLD days at level cap 12 or 14 and the REAL naked TS runs etc....

Simple :cool:

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Junk, is your new wizard really limited by the ability to self heal or not?

I can self heal, human PM. I just don't have quicken yet.

Chai
12-07-2011, 12:14 PM
My wizard can't quickly solo epics just using wail and circle of death. I have a 43 DC, and I probably DO see around a 65%-75% success rate (assuming low SR mobs). But that's not enough to solo epics without issue. SP is still a limiting factor.

And note that wail only worked on mobs at close range. That caster, and those archers? They didn't get in close like the others. I have to pick them off individually which costs more SP... And then I still have to wait for my timer to try wail again on the three melee who saved and who are chasing me around....

It's just 10x easier to take a full group in, kill some with wail, finger the caster, dance or hold the rest, and let the melee kill them. It's faster, I don't run out of SP, and it's more fun.

This is my observation as well. Most casters who arent geared with the same gear that comes out of the quests they are playing in are still challenged by that content.

Who is Shade grouping with? I suspect it isnt first life noob casters. If their casters are geared to the same level his barbarians is, and experienced like he is, they already have all the gear from the quests they are steamrolling with ease.

I know multi TR well geared sorcs and wizards who are plowing these quests, but the same players on their first life casters are not.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 12:15 PM
If people WANT to be challenged.... Dump the 57 Epic item, 30 TR toons and start fresh..... There, your challenge request has been filled.....

Thus ruining the whole point of an MMO with persistent characters that you improve over time. The point of getting that stuff is to use it. That is not a good solution.


It makes NO sense tuning the game to the 5% crowd.... Period.... It's bad economics.... That's the failure of the Epics, tune them to the 5% crowd, the rest of the players don't touch them, tone them down to say the 20-30% crowd, which makes them viable from a development stand point and the 5% crowd complains....

Casters are OP compared to melee at every level (past, perhaps, the very lowest levels), at every degree of gear advancement. It's not a "5%" issue.


It's a no win so don't try..... If players WANT to be challenged they easily can be... Set your own limits.. Just like the OLD days at level cap 12 or 14 and the REAL naked TS runs etc....

It's absolutely not a no-win. It's the whole point of making a good game.

As for challenging themselves? Sorry, but "challenging" myself and setting my own "limits" just guts the whole point of the game, to me. At that point I'm basically playing a game I designed myself. What's the fun of that?

Rawel_San
12-07-2011, 12:16 PM
Breakdown, please?

My WF Pale Master has a 41 DC and it took me longer than a week to get him there and I'm not seeing 75% of epic monsters fall before a single Wail.

What DC does your week old Pale Master have that you're killing 75% of the epic monsters with a single Wail?

Oh he isn't killing 75% of epic mobs with a single wail. I know he isn' t because I have a PM with a 45 dc and
I know that in the "easy" epics (house P small problem) after kiting mobs through a symbol of death
4 times giving them crushing despair and then casting circle followed by wail I end up with an average of 3 mobs
out of 11. Which is just about 75% and it's an easy epic with mobs with low saves.

These claims are the same as those of people claiming they hit everything on a 2 with PA turned on on a non
kensai/non fb. It's just untrue and supported by "I know I do because I check on screen evidence". If you do some
actual testing you find out it's not true, but people will keep repeating it over and over without doing any of the math.

Now this doesn't change the fact that instadeath spells are extremely powerful to the point of being OP. I just
hate when people make up stuff.

Btw try jumping into any desert epics and tell me how well you do in there. I have yet to get more then 1 out of
5 gnolls in wiz king and not even talking about oob. DQ is surprisingly better I can clear the scorp pit after full
debuffs with about 3 circle/wail cycles.

Rodasch
12-07-2011, 12:22 PM
It was after the AoE death spells were allowed in epics that a lot of endgame players started quitting. Nothing remained to pose a challenge in the game - all the quests you might have optimized a toon to beat before the nerf (epic Chains, Small Problem, many others) became trivial Wail-fests.

Player after player on Khyber quit during those days when there was nothing tough left, when it was 'be a very casual player, or there's nothing for you at all at 20'. Almost solely because of the death immunities going.

That's still not the aoe death spells killing the game, that's a deeper problem of which what you describe is merely a symptom.

AoE death spells are only problematic because content is designed poorly, which was facilitated by such things as having "death immunities" across the board, such that when those immunities were removed, it showcased the inherent shortcomings in design.

Couple that with all the other things I've mentioned in this thread and you start to get the bigger picture.

Every time you guys cry out for changes further from PnP to fix "imbalance" you're only compounding the actual problem. It's like getting drunk to defeat depression, you mask it in the short term, but really only become a depressed alcoholic instead of fixing anything.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 12:23 PM
DC isn't everything. Wraps users are at a huge advantage for tactics.


Lol the irony in this statement amuses me.


It's whatever universe the devs choose to create. They're not beholden to anyone else's ideas of how the world should work.

Contracts disagree with you. The devs have rights to use a universe. They don't have rights to re-write a universe however they feel like and call it the same universe.


Fair enough. My concern there is it still heavily impinges on melee DPS, which is the bulk of the options available for melee. Giving more use to a tank is nice, but a group normally can't effectively use more than one or two tanks.

The bulk of options available to them? really to say that in a game where ANY class can get high enough UMD to cast heal scrolls. No it is not the only option... it is just the only option that most melee are willing to contribute to a party because they expect someone else to carry them and their axe.

Can't effectively use extra tanks? I bet your divine casters would like you all to reroll into tanks cause even with the lowered dps of a tank they would save sp on healing you. A tank IS crowd control, properly used it helps alleviate the need for high DC CC from casters... and all it takes is a class skill (intimi) and enough HP to take some hits... which a barb can easily do. A character that is unwilling to bring more than one trick to the table is a waste of a party slot, and melee have more than one trick.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Thus ruining the whole point of an MMO with persistent characters that you improve over time. The point of getting that stuff is to use it. That is not a good solution.

Most other constructs would then add to the top, not change the middle and bottom tiers.

The top maybe does need a challenge now that they are there. I have different thoughts for sure on how to achieve that which is less impactful to the players who aren't there yet.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-07-2011, 12:28 PM
finger of death isn't a multi target insta kill.

Wail of the Banshee is a multi target insta kill spell. It's also an actual D&D spell. You can not change that fact. If creatures are within range of the scream, they should die.

Its kind of like Wail of the Barbarian, wouldnt you say? Thats a multi target insta kill spell, too.

I know I die every time I hear you try to bend the game around your barbarian.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Lol the irony in this statement amuses me.

What irony are you seeing there?

Monks are the best at tactics, because wraps give them major advantages over raw DC, but tactics themselves are quite limited.


Contracts disagree with you. The devs have rights to use a universe. They don't have rights to re-write a universe however they feel like and call it the same universe.

Making magic and melee balanced is hardly rewriting the universe.


The bulk of options available to them? really to say that in a game where ANY class can get high enough UMD to cast heal scrolls. No it is not the only option... it is just the only option that most melee are willing to contribute to a party because they expect someone else to carry them and their axe.

The bulk of classes are melee. The bulk of feats are melee. The bulk of character building options are melee. By making casters OP, they make those options pointless. Why even have them if magic is supposed to do everything?

It's the same problem in 3.5. All that cool, farily well balanced melee stuff, and it's for naught because a simple pure Druid, Cleric, or Wizard with obvious feats and spells rules all.


Can't effectively use extra tanks? I bet your divine casters would like you all to reroll into tanks cause even with the lowered dps of a tank they would save sp on healing you. A tank IS crowd control, properly used it helps alleviate the need for high DC CC from casters... and all it takes is a class skill (intimi) and enough HP to take some hits... which a barb can easily do. A character that is unwilling to bring more than one trick to the table is a waste of a party slot, and melee have more than one trick.

Having multiple intimidaters is largely pointless. The point of a tank is to have one character that draws the aggro. Having 8 tanks in a Raid would be pointless and counterproductive. Now, 1 tank, and 7 DPS, that makes sense.

Rodasch
12-07-2011, 12:34 PM
Show me the forest, please... As far as I can tell, limit wail to only killing 4 mobs at a time, give DoTs a fort save, and we're done.

I've been showing you the forest throughout this thread, read all my posts, including the one just before this one.

You're being reactionary, just like Shade is.

You have to think critically here, go beyond the emotion and the immediate.

Why is Wail "too strong" in epics/endgame? You feel it can kill too many monsters at once...fine, don't change the spell, change the content so that 80 wailable monsters don't just gather up in one spot to be massacred.

Guess what else that will fix...all those other AoE spells that people complained about forever that have been nerfed (Wall of fire, etc), which could then be unnerfed again.

As for the DoTs, yeah they should have a fort save for half on cast.

mystafyi
12-07-2011, 12:35 PM
and it's for naught because a simple pure Druid, Cleric, or Wizard with obvious feats and spells rules all.
speaking of druids, wait till they get released(2079 by current estimates) then nobody will play any other blue bar.

Rodasch
12-07-2011, 12:37 PM
Requireing 2 players to kill something, vs a single player easily soloing somerhing, is automatically more challenging.

I hate to tell you this, but there is nothing in this game that should be challenging to toons that are multi-tr, fully epic geared, and min-maxed to hell and back.

sorry.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 12:41 PM
What irony are you seeing there?

The irony was that in a casters are op thread you stated that DC wasn't everything... I found it ironic and amusing... not that your wrong mind you, but I still found it funny



Making magic and melee balanced is hardly rewriting the universe.

Changing what something does rewrites it... changing what it does so drastic it is unrecognizable is what the OP asked for.


The bulk of classes are melee. The bulk of feats are melee. The bulk of character building options are melee. By making casters OP, they make those options pointless. Why even have them if magic is supposed to do everything?

It's the same problem in 3.5. All that cool, farily well balanced melee stuff, and it's for naught because a simple pure Druid, Cleric, or Wizard with obvious feats and spells rules all.

Who argued that magic was supposed to do everything? And why are you playing a game based on 3.5 if you dislike it so much? Oh yeah, cause it is most fun mmo out there right now, thats right. And if it isn't why are you still here?


Having multiple intimidaters is largely pointless. The point of a tank is to have one character that draws the aggro. Having 8 tanks in a Raid would be pointless and counterproductive. Now, 1 tank, and 7 DPS, that makes sense.

Having 7 people incapable of moving off and completing things without the rest of the group slows down completions. how about 4 tanks, 4 nearly helpless dps, a couple casters and a couple healers... take that into epic ADQ.

Chai
12-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Your point about "they don't need support" is valid - but you're only attacking one aspect - the self-healers of the world.



Youre right, I am attacking one aspect, but its the one aspect that is out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best offense in the game is not out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best self healing in the game (on par with divine and better than everyone elses) is what is out of place in D&D, especially when it costs no sacrifice to having the best offense in the game to have it.

This more than anything else affects the balance, yet people still moan about the offense aspect.

Mark my words and wait and see. When this nerf does happen and building primarily for necromancy is all but worthless, those who built for high necro DC will just TR into a sorc and become damagers. The end result will then become nuking entire rooms down with 1 or 2 spells rather than wailing them down. The end result will be the same, melee runs up to the mobs and watches them melt before they get a hit in. Nerf death spells in '11? = Nerf nukes in '12. If we think people will stop moaning about "melee isnt fun because casters kill everything" after this, we are mistaken. Theres plenty more offense where that came from for people to carry on about after death spells get nerfed. Casters will have to be nerfed into care bear land before melee will be able to "have fun again" under the conditions players are complaining about.

The real question is : is it their offense that unbalances them? The answer is: Not by D&D standards it isnt.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 01:01 PM
Arcane casters having the best self healing in the game (on par with divine and better than everyone elses) is what is out of place in D&D, especially when it costs no sacrifice to having the best offense in the game to have it.


It is not on par with divine healing, but the next teir down. the reason: healing amp doesn't effect it. And as to no sacrifices to get it... if they put AP into repair lines they aren't putting it into damage lines... or cost reduction lines... without putting points into repair lines recon might as well be scroll healed... which anyone in the game can build to do.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Changing what something does rewrites it... changing what it does so drastic it is unrecognizable is what the OP asked for.

The OP is about game mechanics. DDO has changed game mechanics far more drastically that that. In terms of "flavor", the suggestions in the OP would barely register.


Who argued that magic was supposed to do everything?


Barbarians are great at beating something, but should never even remotely compare to a person who has mastered the magic of death itself.

A Barbarian being unable to "even remotely compare" in terms of killing things is pretty close to a Barbarian that can't do anything, and magic that can do everything.

I mean, if the magic user can kill better than the Barbarian, CC and self-Heal better than the Barbarian, what's left for the Barbarian? A bucket of HP for tanking? That's not much to justify a class. And even that's only really necessary for a few of the nastiest bosses. Casters are fully capable of tanking Sulu, for example.


And why are you playing a game based on 3.5 if you dislike it so much? Oh yeah, cause it is most fun mmo out there right now, thats right. And if it isn't why are you still here?

I do think DDO is fun. And almost all of that fun is due to the ways it differs from 3.5. And there are many. The most salient to this thread is the effort the Devs put into keeping things balanced.

DDO is much better balanced than 3.5, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. U9 messed up the melee vs. magic balance we used to have; it's time to fix it.


Having 7 people incapable of moving off and completing things without the rest of the group slows down completions. how about 4 tanks, 4 nearly helpless dps, a couple casters and a couple healers... take that into epic ADQ.

I'm not sure I follow your point here. If you mean that having multiple tanks is useful if you do a quest involving splitting up, then sure. But that's not very common. And doesn't happen in Raids. Most of the time, you want one Tank to pull as much aggro as possible, and the rest to kill things. More DPS is basically always useful. More tanks, not so much.

gloopygloop
12-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Making magic and melee balanced is hardly rewriting the universe.

I do believe that making magic and melee balanced with each other is a worthwhile goal, but at least for D&D, that really is rewriting the universe.

Casters >> Melee has been true in D&D since back when Elf was a class.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 01:10 PM
I do believe that making magic and melee balanced with each other is a worthwhile goal, but at least for D&D, that really is rewriting the universe.

Casters >> Melee has been true in D&D since back when Elf was a class.

It's always been true of the game mechanics (until 4E), but not so much of the setting. The source books usually pretend that melee has a purpose next to magic.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 01:11 PM
Youre right, I am attacking one aspect, but its the one aspect that is out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best offense in the game is not out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best self healing in the game (on par with divine and better than everyone elses) is what is out of place in D&D, especially when it costs no sacrifice to having the best offense in the game to have it.

This more than anything else affects the balance, yet people still moan about the offense aspect.

Mark my words and wait and see. When this nerf does happen and building primarily for necromancy is all but worthless, those who built for high necro DC will just TR into a sorc and become damagers. The end result will then become nuking entire rooms down with 1 or 2 spells rather than wailing them down. The end result will be the same, melee runs up to the mobs and watches them melt before they get a hit in. Nerf death spells in '11? = Nerf nukes in '12. If we think people will stop moaning about "melee isnt fun because casters kill everything" after this, we are mistaken. Theres plenty more offense where that came from for people to carry on about after death spells get nerfed. Casters will have to be nerfed into care bear land before melee will be able to "have fun again" under the conditions players are complaining about.

So, I disagree in some ways - I've seen plenty of fleshy sorcs scroll heal their way through crazy stuff. I also think self-healing absolutely has a place in D&D.

My main disagreement is the blanket "self healing in all cases is bad" stance. Self healing should exist but absolutely come with a balanced cost. Is the problem really the "robot" WF arcane w/ reconstruct? Is it PMs? Is it scroll healers? Will rangers and paladins be the kings of self healing?

In PNP a WF caster has to do a bit of work to get reconstruct on their spell list if they want it - and in my experience many do. Still that takes feat(s) potentially, maybe a PRE, etc.



Do the "robots" have to trade more for self healing than the PMs? Can we increase the AP cost on the repair line? Many WF don't carry more than reconstruct ... maybe alter the cooldown? Make it a tax in spell slots?

Can we handle this by, say, making PM cost more AP? Dropping the amount healed by the auras and burst? Removing the auras and adding point-in-time bursts only? Not letting them have strong elemental damage lines in the mean time? Shifting that first AP in the damage lines from being such a huge boost and rather stretching it out across the first 3 tiers?



That STILL doesn't solve the "I murder everything first" problem, just the clean up. I could be with you on the "make self healing more of a cost" ... but not "remove it".

Course corrections and balance.

grodon9999
12-07-2011, 01:13 PM
It's always been true of the game mechanics (until 4E), but not so much of the setting. The source books usually pretend that melee has a purpose next to magic.

and a good DM would design encounters where all types could be useful.

We have quests like that. EVON3 is a great example as some mobs have too much SR and others are easily fingered. Make more stuff like that.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 01:16 PM
It's always been true of the game mechanics (until 4E), but not so much of the setting. The source books usually pretend that melee has a purpose next to magic.

That purpose is handled through the encounters.

Have the beholder's dispel persistent effects automatically. Magic dead zones. Hell this is Eberron and the LoB is here ... why not have some Mournland-ish effects creep in. Have more things that force checks the wizards and sorcs ditched, target player poor saves, etc. Adventures with combinations of mechanics that make it so you WANT your wizard to slot knock (or bring a rogue), dimension door (or bring a leaper), etc.

"Frank, I can't hurt that thing with my spells"
"No problem Wally, few things are resistant to the axe to the face"

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 01:18 PM
@dkyle I think you and I have a difference of opinion about where the balance "should" lie as regards to casters vs melee, and we will never agree lol. I have to go to work now and will miss out on the next 6 or so hours of this argument, was fun arguing with you :) As a parting statement I will point out that even you didn't have anything bad to say about my actual suggestions lol.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 01:19 PM
We have quests like that. EVON3 is a great example as some mobs have too much SR and others are easily fingered. Make more stuff like that.

Totally spot on what I want to see.

Also, traps with the boxes past them that aren't easy to player-skill avoid. Some monsters flat immune to elemental damage and similar spells (cough cough golems).

Archers with precise and improved precise shot.

Rogue bad guys with cheat death.

Every epic melee humanoid with some additional feat / capability and better assumed gear.

Chai
12-07-2011, 01:26 PM
The bulk of classes are melee. The bulk of feats are melee. The bulk of character building options are melee. By making casters OP, they make those options pointless. Why even have them if magic is supposed to do everything?

It's the same problem in 3.5. All that cool, farily well balanced melee stuff, and it's for naught because a simple pure Druid, Cleric, or Wizard with obvious feats and spells rules all.



Compared to what? 4e on paper, and WOW clones in the MMO world, where everyone has largely the same capabilities damage wise and healing wise, but they are just named different things on paper and have different graphics in the video game.

There are plenty of games where playing a wizard and playing a ranger does not bear a different end result, other than you seeing the ranger shooting a bow where the wizard is casting damage spells. They do the same damage and just have different skins made to look like different classes. Those are the games that are considered "balanced" right now.

DDO carved a nice little niche out in the MMO market by not being one of those games, just like D&D did in the 70s, 80s, and 90s by not being "those other P&P games." Once they ran out of money though, they got bought by the "if you cant beat em, clone em and join em" crowd, heh. We will see what this all looks like when NWN comes out which is based strictly (their words) on 4e game mechanics. Ive already seen it, and it doesnt have 1/8th of the options DDO does, and the ones it does have all do "the same thing with different skins" anyhow. :p

What 3.5 lacks in balance it makes up for in sheer number of options - and while it brings many of the same issues it has to DDO, so too does it bring many of its positive aspects, which is why you, me, and jesus still play this game.


and a good DM would design encounters where all types could be useful.

We have quests like that. EVON3 is a great example as some mobs have too much SR and others are easily fingered. Make more stuff like that.

Yeap, exactly. They also dont play mobs like the game AI plays them.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 01:26 PM
As a parting statement I will point out that even you didn't have anything bad to say about my actual suggestions lol.

I don't think your suggestion is bad, but as I said, I don't think it goes far enough. I firmly believe there should be a place for melee DPS in the game (as well as caster DPS). By the nature of the game mechanics, the majority of characters in an ideal group will be DPS, because more DPS stacks, and is always better than less DPS. More tanking, more CC, more buffs, and more heals all have points of diminishing returns. You don't really need more than one or two of each, and the same character can sometimes do several of those tasks.

But your suggestion primarily helps make melee tanks important. Which doesn't do much to help out the majority of melee that are built for DPS.

bigolbear
12-07-2011, 01:27 PM
Shade thanks again for presenting the meles view point.

I totaly understand that many meles feel they are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to DDO - and i agree you are.

I dont like your idea tho (even though i agree something should be done for EPIC content). - normal, hard and elite seem fine to me.

I think the simpelest solution and one that fits perfectly with D&D is to limit the number of 'enemies effected' by any mass instakill. One enemy per 4 caster lvls seems right to me, assuming the enemies have a some chance of saving that would mean on average that per cast of wail only 4 enemies max would die. given its hefty cool down That should solve the issue.

Couple this with giving meles more feats and abilities to outright kill things or heavily wound them and we may start to see more balance.

Further more Id suggest that the passive wizard past life is dramaticaly over powered and could use a nerfing(unpopular but good for game balance)

Also as ive stated previously in your threads on this subject, giving epic mobs mixed and varies buffs that can be dispelled is the way forward - give some deathward, give some FOM, give some energy resistance/imunity - make it random. Thus no individual style or shcool of magic will always have the upper hand. I understand theres an issue but I realy dont want to go back to mass hold *****.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 01:37 PM
There are plenty of games where playing a wizard and playing a ranger does not bear a different end result, other than you seeing the ranger shooting a bow where the wizard is casting damage spells. They do the same damage and just have different skins made to look like different classes. Those are the games that are considered "balanced" right now.

DDO doesn't need to do that to be balanced. "Sameness" is a form of balance, but an easy and lazy one.

Look at Starcraft or Magic the Gathering for games with wide and varied options, that are well balanced.


DDO carved a nice little niche out in the MMO market by not being one of those games, just like D&D did in the 70s, 80s, and 90s by not being those P&P games.

I do very much like DDO for its variety of builds. But it is much more limited, and better balanced, than 3.5.


We will see what this all looks like when NWN comes out which is based strictly (their words) on 4e game mechanics. Ive already seen it, and it doesnt have 1/8th of the options DDO does, and the ones it does have all do "the same thing with different skins" anyhow. :p

Is there a Beta or something?

A lot will depend on how much they include. Will it just be essentials classes? Will they include Hybrids? Half-elves with Versatile Mastery? The full breadth of 4E character creation options are, in my opinion, comparable to what DDO offers.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 01:56 PM
A lot will depend on how much they include. Will it just be essentials classes? Will they include Hybrids? Half-elves with Versatile Mastery? The full breadth of 4E character creation options are, in my opinion, comparable to what DDO offers.

At last check this was like 3000+ feats in 4e in the compendium ... I doubt they are implementing "full options" ;-)

dkyle
12-07-2011, 02:02 PM
At last check this was like 3000+ feats in 4e in the compendium ... I doubt they are implementing "full options" ;-)

Well, a lot of those feats are utter junk that noone takes, just like in 3.5. A few hundred feats would probably cover the ones that are realistically useful, and that provide the bulk of build options. Versatile Mastery, for example, is a single feat that opens up a lot of interesting builds.

Rodasch
12-07-2011, 02:39 PM
"Frank, I can't hurt that thing with my spells"
"No problem Wally, few things are resistant to the axe to the face"

This reminds me. Another thing they borked up when trying to "balance" things by changing from PnP.

Golems need to go back to the immunities they had before. They were that way for a reason.

I should not be able to kill a clay golem with fireballs or polar ray. Sorry. It should require me to use disintigrate, ice storm (bludgeon), meteor swarm (bludgeon), etc like the old days, or to swing a friggin' smiting weapon at it.

dkyle
12-07-2011, 02:53 PM
I should not be able to kill a clay golem with fireballs or polar ray. Sorry. It should require me to use disintigrate, ice storm (bludgeon), meteor swarm (bludgeon), etc like the old days, or to swing a friggin' smiting weapon at it.

In 3.5, a clay golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#clayGolem) is immune to ice storm and meteor swarm as they both permit spell resistance. Disintegrate slows the golem and does a pittance of damage; not really good for killing it.

gloopygloop
12-07-2011, 02:58 PM
This reminds me. Another thing they borked up when trying to "balance" things by changing from PnP.

Golems need to go back to the immunities they had before. They were that way for a reason.

I should not be able to kill a clay golem with fireballs or polar ray. Sorry. It should require me to use disintigrate, ice storm (bludgeon), meteor swarm (bludgeon), etc like the old days, or to swing a friggin' smiting weapon at it.



In 3.5, a clay golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#clayGolem) is immune to ice storm and meteor swarm as they both permit spell resistance. Disintegrate slows the golem and does a pittance of damage; not really good for killing it.

OUTSTANDING example of how having a variety of monsters with a variety of resistances and immunities can help balance casters and melee.

Havok.cry
12-07-2011, 04:36 PM
I don't think your suggestion is bad, but as I said, I don't think it goes far enough. I firmly believe there should be a place for melee DPS in the game (as well as caster DPS). By the nature of the game mechanics, the majority of characters in an ideal group will be DPS, because more DPS stacks, and is always better than less DPS. More tanking, more CC, more buffs, and more heals all have points of diminishing returns. You don't really need more than one or two of each, and the same character can sometimes do several of those tasks.

But your suggestion primarily helps make melee tanks important. Which doesn't do much to help out the majority of melee that are built for DPS.

Ok piking at work typing on my phone. I agree that it is not enough, but I do not think all the balance needs to happen on the casters side. They need to un-nerf vorpal. More variety in monsters as has been suggested. And make monsters cast buffs that can be dispelled. If I was going to ask them to recode a huge section of the game I would ask them to go so far as to give the monsters actual gear that could be disjunctioned.

Chai
12-07-2011, 05:14 PM
DDO doesn't need to do that to be balanced. "Sameness" is a form of balance, but an easy and lazy one.

Alot of people play DDO because it doesnt have "sameness" style balancing. Alot of peoples suggestions are asking for DDO to move closer toward that paradigm - though not emulate it completely.


Look at Starcraft or Magic the Gathering for games with wide and varied options, that are well balanced.

Starcraft was hardly what I call balanced, heh.

I tried to learn to play magic, and the two nerds who were trying to teach me basically got into an argument with eachother about how the cards I had could totally PWN the other guy within a few rounds to the point where loss would be inevitable. It took them about 90 minutes to finish that wonderful discussion. :p


I do very much like DDO for its variety of builds. But it is much more limited, and better balanced, than 3.5. Weve been here before but Ill say it again. I dont consider taking a game that needs to be "fixed" - rehashing it with 75% less options, to be "balanced". One example? Compare the number of spells in DDO to 3.5e D&D, or hell, even 4e.


Is there a Beta or something?

A lot will depend on how much they include. Will it just be essentials classes? Will they include Hybrids? Half-elves with Versatile Mastery? The full breadth of 4E character creation options are, in my opinion, comparable to what DDO offers.

There are 4 classes so far, and most do the same type of thing, with different graphics look. This is what all my buggering about 4e was months and years ago. It will translate into the very thing it was reverse engineered from. Once 4e reaches what 3.5e had in number of options, so too will it reach its level of broken-ness. They didnt really solve anything by wiping the slate clean because the users

We are seeing the same thing here in DDO. The more complex this game gets the more broken it becomes. Back when it was a primitive game there were 10 levels, barely any AP, no PRE, etc, it was fairly balanced. Cap level casters could destroy everything then too, but we could make untouchable tanks that rolled through the same difficulty dungeons and crushed content. Thrower builds were legit, finesse rogues were legit, archers were legit.

Then the moaning for new content, classes, PRE, etc began, just like it did for every single edition of P&P D&D. The game got infinately more complex over the years, and while that brings alot of new options to the table, so too does it bring character balance issues galore. Inflated HP mobs that hit for minute amounts of damage. Certain build options no longer viable, or right on the cusp of being viable. Game is balanced for min maxing, which eliminates a HUGE number of build options. Pay to play options for race and class are released with the dangled carrot that they are more powerful than the free races and classes.

Combine all that with a Company that adjusts power to the other extreme too often. Something that needed a little more power to be balance gets busted wide open (casters), while something that wasnt even the most powerful option on the table gets nerfed to near bottom of the pile (rangers).

The irony I see is that many of the people who are complaining about playing melee not being fun nowdays were not saying a word in the mass hold autocrit days, when only 1-2 casters were desired on a raid and you better have a 44 enchant DC or dont join our epic quest. Yeah, they want a "balanced game" alright, which = the toon they invested the most time on is on top of the "wanted in groups" list. If we were measuring justice in time units, casters and melee would remain how they are power-wise until roughly 2015 or so. :p

Rodasch
12-07-2011, 05:24 PM
In 3.5, a clay golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#clayGolem) is immune to ice storm and meteor swarm as they both permit spell resistance. Disintegrate slows the golem and does a pittance of damage; not really good for killing it.

Well technically then yes, I should be able to kill it with polar ray since there is no SR check on it, but with the way they changed ice storm and meteor swarm in this game, they have no SR checks and so would still hurt the golem.

Still the point remains that golems are way too gimped down now for casters. They are supposed to be difficult to kill with magic for a reason.

Disintegrate only did 1d12 damage but in 3.5 clay golems only had 90 hp. It also slowed it for 1d6 rounds. When the clay golems here have 900+ hp there's no reason not to keep disintegrate at normal power, especially with the lack of other spells which are supposed to be part of the repertoire of an arcane caster but which we cannot pick (such as earthquake, for clay golems or wall of force for crowd control, or Repulsion for defense, or proper dimension dooring, etc).

Postumus
12-07-2011, 06:58 PM
Its kind of like Wail of the Barbarian, wouldnt you say? Thats a multi target insta kill spell, too.

I know I die every time I hear you try to bend the game around your barbarian.

Ba ha ha ha ha ha haha!!! :)

dkyle
12-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Starcraft was hardly what I call balanced, heh.

It has a vibrant community of professional gamers, and no one race is favored by them. Sounds like balance to me.


I tried to learn to play magic, and the two nerds who were trying to teach me basically got into an argument with eachother about how the cards I had could totally PWN the other guy within a few rounds to the point where loss would be inevitable. It took them about 90 minutes to finish that wonderful discussion. :p

A 90 minute debate is a pretty good indication of good balance.


There are 4 classes so far, and most do the same type of thing, with different graphics look.

Hold on... you're talking about the upcoming Neverwinter MMO, right? Not the facebook flash game?


This is what all my buggering about 4e was months and years ago. It will translate into the very thing it was reverse engineered from. Once 4e reaches what 3.5e had in number of options, so too will it reach its level of broken-ness. They didnt really solve anything by wiping the slate clean because the users

The 4E of today, after 3 years, is more balanced than 3E was a month in.

4E is balanced because it was built to be. The designers understand the underlying math, and know not to toss a dozen separate sub systems at it.

Talias006
12-07-2011, 07:01 PM
At last check this was like 3000+ feats in 4e in the compendium ... I doubt they are implementing "full options" ;-)

Really? You had to bring 4e into this? :rolleyes: Kids these days...

Cadveen
12-07-2011, 07:13 PM
I have played this game since it came out and I have only played a wizard. My character even has four lives in wizard. So, coming from a wizard class. WE ARE MEANT TO INSTANTLY KILL EVERYTHING AT LEVEL 20! Speaking of weird and time stop...I WANT IT! Where is it? How about polymorph! When they add druids, how about adding that spell as well. The mechanic will already be loaded. An epic wizard could kill any other epic player character. That is how it has always been. The wizard starts out weak, but in the end he is the stongest. LONG LIVE WIZARDS..and LONGER LIVE the LICH PALEMASTER! If you disagree, my phylactery is embedded in my cold unbeating heart. COME AND GET IT!!!! Instadoom? This game has altered alot from what us pnp players have enjoyed...SHADE QUIT TRYING TO ALTER THE SPELLBOOK EVEN MORE. P.S. I do enjoy the necro spells that the devs created, and please move those spells from level four to level 3 or 5. Thanks in advance.

Postumus
12-07-2011, 07:25 PM
Youre right, I am attacking one aspect, but its the one aspect that is out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best offense in the game is not out of place in D&D.

Arcane casters having the best self healing in the game (on par with divine and better than everyone elses) is what is out of place in D&D, especially when it costs no sacrifice to having the best offense in the game to have it.



There's one other unmentionable game mechanic that makes casters OP in DDO vs D&D that's so ingrained by now it's practically video game heresy to bring up: immunity to friendly fire.

In PnP I don't remember beating down ogres while standing smack dab in the middle of a wall of fire. And I don't remember jumping back and forth like B'rer Rabbit kiting monsters through the cleric's blade barrier. But I do remember being too close to our wizard's delayed blast fireball and nearly getting burned to a crisp.

Even Dragon Age Origins had some friendly fire effects: step in front of your own NPC's cone of cold and you had a chance to become a frozen statue like every other creature that got hit by it.

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 07:32 PM
There's one other unmentionable game mechanic that makes casters OP in DDO vs D&D that's so ingrained by now it's practically video game heresy to bring up: immunity to friendly fire.

Heh ... I played that caster back in the mid 90s.

"Guys, I can't handle them in melee. If I get rushed, the fireball will be centered on my head. It's gonna hurt you far more than it's gonna hurt me, so keep 'em away."

Postumus
12-07-2011, 07:38 PM
That's the real rub isn't it, what really makes people grumpy and cranky?


"I spent a lot of time and you didn't spend as much and it's not fair!"




Well that's 50% of the forum threads in a nutshell, isn't it?

Thrudh
12-07-2011, 07:38 PM
There's one other unmentionable game mechanic that makes casters OP in DDO vs D&D that's so ingrained by now it's practically video game heresy to bring up: immunity to friendly fire.

In PnP I don't remember beating down ogres while standing smack dab in the middle of a wall of fire. And I don't remember jumping back and forth like B'rer Rabbit kiting monsters through the cleric's blade barrier. But I do remember being too close to our wizard's delayed blast fireball and nearly getting burned to a crisp.

Even Dragon Age Origins had some friendly fire effects: step in front of your own NPC's cone of cold and you had a chance to become a frozen statue like every other creature that got hit by it.

Good observation.

Talias006
12-07-2011, 07:47 PM
I have played this game since it came out and I have only played a wizard. My character even has four lives in wizard. So, coming from a wizard class. WE ARE MEANT TO INSTANTLY KILL EVERYTHING AT LEVEL 20! Speaking of weird and time stop...I WANT IT! Where is it? How about polymorph! When they add druids, how about adding that spell as well. The mechanic will already be loaded. An epic wizard could kill any other epic player character. That is how it has always been. The wizard starts out weak, but in the end he is the stongest. LONG LIVE WIZARDS..and LONGER LIVE the LICH PALEMASTER! If you disagree, my phylactery is embedded in my cold unbeating heart. COME AND GET IT!!!! Instadoom? This game has altered alot from what us pnp players have enjoyed...SHADE QUIT TRYING TO ALTER THE SPELLBOOK EVEN MORE. P.S. I do enjoy the necro spells that the devs created, and please move those spells from level four to level 3 or 5. Thanks in advance.

I get that Wizards/Necromancers are meant to be powerful practitioners of occult rites and dweomers at level 20.
Not top of the food chain, but they have to share that plateu of powerful with others that have different gifts.

One thing I have to ask... how did you become part of the forum community before the game was actually released and only have a barely double digit post count?

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:38 PM
Wail of the Banshee is a multi target insta kill spell. It's also an actual D&D spell. You can not change that fact. If creatures are within range of the scream, they should die.

Its kind of like Wail of the Barbarian, wouldnt you say? Thats a multi target insta kill spell, too.

I know I die every time I hear you try to bend the game around your barbarian.

Yea it also has a massive 40 feet AOE in pen and paper.

And the huge difference and reason it cant be the same:
In D&D your powerful lvl20 wizard can cast it a whole 4 times per day.
In DDO you can cast it 70+ times a day (rest) without sp pots.. or unlimited with..

Thats why the balance is broken, and why the spell cant work the same.

If the nerf you'd prefer would be limiting it to only allowed to cast 4 per shrine, that could work as away to balance it too. But I doubt thatd be as popular as my idea.

Far as your support for me and keeping track of what classes I play, i appreciate it, friend me on youtube.

Shade
12-07-2011, 08:49 PM
I can roll up a WF AM enchant that has the same DC, which makes content just as trivial and formulaic, and has better self healing than a PM. We dont seem to mind that though, because instead of killing the mobs itself, it props the mobs up so the melee can kill them without allowing the mobs to fight back.

Anything and everything that encourages teamplay play and cross-class coordination is awesome and should be promoted. This is one of them. The day it died, the game got worse.

Hells it was touted as the "MAJOR NEW FEATURE" of dragonage 2 where they specificly set up all kind of cross-class specials where you freeze a monster, then the fighter or rogue gets special bonuses against it..

Encouraging teamwork is an aweosme and great thing about mmos.

Making a few classes severely overpowered to the point they can solo any and eveyr epic quest in the game using exactly 2 differnet spells 99% of the time is utterly broken and does not encourage smart gameplay, discourages teamwork and makes the game less fun for everyone that doenst play said classes.

Just because YOU don't like the social aspect of melee and casters workign together, doesnt mean anything. It's a completely proven, logical and smart aspect of the game.

And its one that remains, be it only in epic challenge,s or when groups with weaker casters. The players shouldnt be forced into such specific content, or specific builds tho.

The intention of U9 spell pass was to make more specs versatile and useful in endgame, but what it ended up doing was making it so only 1 spec was acceptable. Players will always gravitate and seek the easiest means to the end, and when 1 way is a million times easier then any of the others, its damaging to the core gameplay.

The majority get that. This thread wouldn't be hitting 200 replies in under 2 days if it wasn't damaged.

Yes the idea isn't super popular, I didn't expect that it would be.. Lot of D&D purist and "GIME EASY BUTTON" ppl on the forums as always.

But if not this, something has to change. This is just one idea.

morticianjohn
12-07-2011, 08:50 PM
I believe the game is balanced around casters getting 1 insta kill every 5-8 second (eg: Finger of death, destruction). But not how it is now where they can kill litterally hundreds of enemies instantly, at a near endless rate.



I do kinda like how you're thinking in the post but you're lumping implosion in with wail. FYI implosion kills 1 enemy per tic to a max of (I think) 6. Implosion also has a long cooldown. As I mentioned I like the idea however, Implosion is nothing like wail which I have seen kill about 15-20 mobs in one cast.

Grenada
12-07-2011, 09:18 PM
I like the doom idea. Easily overcome with some party tactics (so still way more efficient than a standard beat-down).

Things I'd like to see added to it:

-Aggro. My impression from this is that if not already aggroed, a mob would attack the caster. If successfully intimidated or struck in combat, the aggro would shift. Does this seem right? It would help with getting everyone involved, and would give s&b intimitanks another niche role (other than limited to raid tanking).

-Visual cue. Something along the lines of a fancy new "curse" symbol on top of their head to know the mob failed its save (selecting each one may be difficult to do just to check the doom effect).

-Timer. Seems a little long, but that's not really something too big to worry about (it can always be modified).

voodoogroves
12-07-2011, 09:35 PM
Encouraging teamwork is an aweosme and great thing about mmos.
Yes.

Yes the idea isn't super popular, I didn't expect that it would be.. Lot of D&D purist and "GIME EASY BUTTON" ppl on the forums as always.
There's a bunch of people here who are here because this is D&D. If this was some other IP, folks would leave - the IP and system is important to quite a few folks.

Again, with you on the some of the reasoning, but your proposal is over-the-top and I don't think it encourages team play - it encourages everyone to roll some other kind of character and find someone else to do the un-fun job. Beyond that your proposal introduces a completely new system/mechanic.

If we just removed Wail of the Banshee ... then what? Or gave a random 1/4 of the mobs undispellable deathblock upon spawning?

Simpler, yes?

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-07-2011, 11:19 PM
Yea it also has a massive 40 feet AOE in pen and paper.

And the huge difference and reason it cant be the same:
In D&D your powerful lvl20 wizard can cast it a whole 4 times per day.
In DDO you can cast it 70+ times a day (rest) without sp pots.. or unlimited with..

Thats why the balance is broken, and why the spell cant work the same.

If the nerf you'd prefer would be limiting it to only allowed to cast 4 per shrine, that could work as away to balance it too. But I doubt thatd be as popular as my idea.

Far as your support for me and keeping track of what classes I play, i appreciate it, friend me on youtube.

Ridiculous comparison. You show me one D&D RPG or MMO that's ever set the bar at casting Wail of the Banshee at only three times a day (3.5e rules state wail can be cast only 3 times per day, so you are wrong even when you are trying to be right :)). DDO is an instanced MMO. Certain timers, especially necro spells, just would never work in an action packed mmo.

For example, take Symbol of Death.

"Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer."

I'm sure your barbarian would LOVE a caster in your party to spend up to 24 hours trying to attune monsters in a single quest... but it just doesn't make any sense in the DDO environment.

The length of time it takes a spell to cast, as well as the cool down timers if any, are up to developers to figure what makes the most sense. Luckily for the large majority I'd assume, you don't get to make those decisions for Turbine.

Lets take a look at three rulebooks:

D&D 3.5e Wiki

Wail of the Banshee Necromancy [Death, Sonic]

Level: Death 9, Repose 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: One living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

-------------------

Neverwinter Nights 2 wiki:

Wail of the Banshee

Spell level : Innate level: 9, Sorcerer/Wizard: 9
School : Necromancy
Descriptor(s) : Death, Sonic
Components : Verbal
Range : Short
Target/Area : Colossal, 1 Creature / Level
Duration : Instantaneous
Save : Fortitude Negates
Spell resistance : Yes

All enemies within the area of effect must succeed at a Fortitude save or die, to a maximum of 1 enemy per caster (http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Caster_level).

-------------------

Pathfinder SRD:

Wail of the Banshee

School necromancy [death, sonic]; Level sorcerer/wizard 9, witch 9; Domain death 9, repose 9
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V EFFECT

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature/level within a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes


DESCRIPTION

When you cast this spell, you emit a terrible, soul-chilling scream that possibly kills creatures that hear it (except for yourself). The spell affects up to one creature per caster level, inflicting 10 points of damage per caster level. Creatures closest to the point of origin are affected first.


----------------------------------

Pretty clear to me that the only restrictions to the Wail of the Banshee that exist, are the ones that swirl around in that clearly overfed barbarian mind of yours. :D

Niv-mizzet
12-08-2011, 12:41 AM
I think the best idea I've heard on this topic EVER is to simulate enemies wearing some equipment. (In epic)

Enemy spawns and does a quick d8 roll on a table to see what "item" he's wearing.
Table has: GH, FoM, Death ward, Blur, True seeing, Stoneskin, Barkskin, Pro elements.

So on average, if you gather up 8 enemies, you'd see all of them somewhere in the pack.
Hell if you wanted to get fancy, you could have a roll a d9 and have 9 be "roll twice and combine" or something.

I think the unpredictable randomness would also make seperate runs of the same quest feel different, even if everything else was the same.

Havok.cry
12-08-2011, 01:20 AM
Shade I hate to break it to you but in 3.5 dnd a wizard gets scribe scroll at level 1. In pnp when a player scribes a scroll it uses all the modifiers as if the maker cast the spell... with a bit of prep time yes a pnp could easily have 70+ effective wails of the banshee in a single encounter.

Grenada
12-08-2011, 01:32 AM
Shade I hate to break it to you but in 3.5 dnd a wizard gets scribe scroll at level 1. In pnp when a player scribes a scroll it uses all the modifiers as if the maker cast the spell... with a bit of prep time yes a pnp could easily have 70+ effective wails of the banshee in a single encounter.

But at a huge xp cost. It wasn't easy to do that, and many DMs straight up wouldn't allow it*.




*I would, but I relied more on traps than monsters for damage (or trapped monsters; players caught onto that one pretty quick :D)

gloopygloop
12-08-2011, 06:43 AM
Yea it also has a massive 40 feet AOE in pen and paper.

And the huge difference and reason it cant be the same:
In D&D your powerful lvl20 wizard can cast it a whole 4 times per day.
In DDO you can cast it 70+ times a day (rest) without sp pots.. or unlimited with..

Thats why the balance is broken, and why the spell cant work the same.

If the nerf you'd prefer would be limiting it to only allowed to cast 4 per shrine, that could work as away to balance it too. But I doubt thatd be as popular as my idea.

Far as your support for me and keeping track of what classes I play, i appreciate it, friend me on youtube.

In PnP you also only have a few encounters each day. In DDO, we have a few encounters each minute.

If you allowed capped casters to cast it only 4 times per day... scaled up to the number of traditional Pen and Paper encounters that we see in each DDO quest, then you'd see something pretty similar to the number of spells that we get to cast in DDO.

smatt
12-08-2011, 07:17 AM
At last check this was like 3000+ feats in 4e in the compendium ... I doubt they are implementing "full options" ;-)

4-E is a stinking pile of dog poo

gloopygloop
12-08-2011, 07:51 AM
But at a huge xp cost. It wasn't easy to do that, and many DMs straight up wouldn't allow it*.



*I would, but I relied more on traps than monsters for damage (or trapped monsters; players caught onto that one pretty quick :D)

The XP cost for scrolls isn't actually all that huge. If you manage your XP expenditures well, you can actually end up making magic items (scrolls, potions, etc) and still end up with more total XP than your fellow party members even though you're spending XP.

LeslieWest_GuitarGod
12-08-2011, 08:48 AM
In PnP you also only have a few encounters each day. In DDO, we have a few encounters each minute.

Exactly.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 09:17 AM
Anything and everything that encourages teamplay play and cross-class coordination is awesome and should be promoted.

I agree with that


Making a few classes severely overpowered to the point they can solo any and eveyr epic quest in the game using exactly 2 differnet spells 99% of the time is utterly broken

As usual, you way over-exaggerate, and destroy your own credibility. There are epics with drow and epics with undead, and those two different spells don't work there. And then on the mobs that are affected, it only hits 60%-75% of the time IF you have an very good DC. Those with exceptional DCs (have grinded EVERYTHING) deserve to hit 90%.

It's not that broken now, but I do agree it's unbalanced. We don't need a new system of "doom"... Just make wail only affect up to 4 mobs or extend its cool-down.

Simple solution, minimal dev time required. That's it. We're done.


If they want to work a little harder, throw in some random buffs like deathward on mobs in epics (that can be dispelled), and/or vary up the mobs in epics..

The House D epic quests and eVON3 are NOT soloed by "using exactly 2 different spells" because the drow in there are highly resistant. I think the best solution would be to make sure that most epics have at least one mob type that is highly resistant to magic.

grodon9999
12-08-2011, 09:24 AM
I'd double the cooldown on wail and cut the cooldown for PWK in half. The 200 seconds is just a stupid long time.

Drekisen
12-08-2011, 09:28 AM
Is this whole thing over Wail.......wow....I hardly even use that spell and I am a 2nd life PM.

I actually only use it when I really need to.....I like to play my wizard.....you know like have fun with all my spells....but then I am not into xp/minute either.

I spend more time debuffing and cc'ing than "stealing" kills from melees.

I really think the balance issues in DDO have a lot to do with the way people interact with each other in parties......that is something easily fixed on our end.

Chai
12-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Hold on... you're talking about the upcoming Neverwinter MMO, right? Not the facebook flash game?

Yeap, but perhaps that is what they were showing a couple of friends of mine and not what they are releasing. Still looked alot more cookie cutter.




The 4E of today, after 3 years, is more balanced than 3E was a month in.

4E is balanced because it was built to be. The designers understand the underlying math, and know not to toss a dozen separate sub systems at it.

No. Hell no.

3E at first tried to do what 4e also tried to do and failed. It removed ALOT of options from 2E which were allowing for some pretty crazy optimized min max "pun pun" style builds to run the board with impunity, as well as trying to fix a broken high level game.

What happened is the players asked for their options back, and of course the company, in the interest of making scads of money, gave it to them, in the form of purchasable side material.

What they are doing different in 4e is using what you call "sameness" to balance the game by giving characters alot of abilities which have different descriptions, but cause the same end result capability wise. The players are still griping about having more options, and that is getting responded to, but the capabilities of the characters doesnt change. This creates "balance" but it also creates a game where playing one class doesnt feel all that much different from playing a different class.

Where 3E and up really missed the boat is segmented combat, which died with 2.0 is the most balancing aspect of casters in any D&D game I have ever seen. In 2.0, each spell had a certain number of segments the caster had to cast through (earlier MMOs emulated this using casting times)

2.0 example

DM - roll initiative
players roll and account for modifiers
DM - anyone go on 1?
DM - 2?
Player1 - I go on 2, I begin casting a spell (player knows its a 4 segment cast time - no one else knows this)
DM - 3? No?
DM - 4? I got a couple goblins that go on 4. They see the wizard casting and attack him. (combat is settled)
DM - 5?
Player - I go on 5. Im going to move here (counts it out) then attack this goblin (combat is settled)
DM - 6?
Player1....

One of two things happens here. If the player made his concentration checks after taking damage each time they were hit they announce "spell goes off" and say what the spell is. If they failed one or more concentration checks, the spell failed and the player doesnt really need to say anything at that point.

This certainly is more balanced than the 3.5e version, which is.

DM - 2?
Player1 - I go on 2. (/Moves to position character where no attacks of opportunity will occur, counting it out). Im casting this spell which will hit everything in the room. Does any mob in the room have a readied action? No? Ok. They all need to make a DC (high number min maxed for absurdity) or they die.
DM - Im basically hunting for 20s....
Player1 - yeap....

The best caster balance I have ever seen in a D&D based game was segmented casting. Every entity on the board whose action went between the time the wizard began casting and when the spell goes off could choose to attack the caster or use some other method to interrupt the spell being cast. This is emulated fairly well in some other MMOs where casting times are implemented. Here in DDO, its just /run in, ((BLAM!!!)) 12 mobs just died. Combine that with the fact that the AI is more than happy to chase the caster who is running in a big circle until all of the rest of the mobs come inside the AOE, and there certainly is an issue, but its not all class power related. Its class power + ******** AI + people who will not accept ungeared casters into LFMs with less than a 44 DC, then ironically cry about it when the caster flogs the entire dungeon with no help from anyone else. :p

voodoogroves
12-08-2011, 10:02 AM
This certainly is more balanced than the 3.5e version, which is.

DM - roll init
Wizard 1 (fred) - ok ... I'm 9th level, with my hummingbird familiar, all my bonuses, my init bonus is + one million
DM - monsters roll a 4, how about you George?
Wizard 2 (george) - Well, I'm just going to cast celerity and because I have these 3 feats, I won't be dazed after ... so I automatically go first.
DM - ok, next combat

Fixed that for you ;-)

smatt
12-08-2011, 10:38 AM
Thus ruining the whole point of an MMO with persistent characters that you improve over time. The point of getting that stuff is to use it. That is not a good solution. Of course it is, BUT there is now way in a game like DDO, with how complicated AND expensive to code, that they (Turbine) could possibly keep up, period. I know that's next to impossible for SOME people to understand.



Casters are OP compared to melee at every level (past, perhaps, the very lowest levels), at every degree of gear advancement. It's not a "5%" issue.


It's been like that since at least Mod 4 (Gianthold), they've wrestled with it since then. The outcry that happens when they do nerf casters down is FAR greater than currently or any other time. Theyv'e made strides to make caster less universally effective in some parts of the game, not quite enough in my opinion. But read the first sentence again, reality is a hard thing for some people. IT is now and always has been a 5% issue, creating content that no one but a few run is BAd business PEROID.... That is unless you can somehow suck 30, 40, 50% of the revnue form those players.... Sorry, it's that reality thing again......



It's absolutely not a no-win. It's the whole point of making a good game.
Dpo you really even have a clue how it is to create this game? Tostay within the limitations they have and still keep it a goign concern? Not likely it seems....

As for challenging themselves? Sorry, but "challenging" myself and setting my own "limits" just guts the whole point of the game, to me. At that point I'm basically playing a game I designed myself. What's the fun of that?

There's lots of fun to be had in all kinds of ways... Take your caster any caster and go solo the U-11 quests on elite... 6 man a LoB epic... or even a LoB elite.... :cool:

dkyle
12-08-2011, 10:56 AM
Of course it is, BUT there is now way in a game like DDO, with how complicated AND expensive to code, that they (Turbine) could possibly keep up, period. I know that's next to impossible for SOME people to understand.

They make the gear and the races/classes/PrEs. It's not rocket science to figure what's challenging to players with those things. Not trivial, of course, but they're professionals. It's their job.


It's been like that since at least Mod 4 (Gianthold), they've wrestled with it since then. The outcry that happens when they do nerf casters down is FAR greater than currently or any other time. Theyv'e made strides to make caster less universally effective in some parts of the game, not quite enough in my opinion.

What strides? U9 made casters more effective at basically everything. The piddly nerf to Wall of Fire was nothing with the addition of DoTs and more AoE DoTs that actual work at end-game.


IT is now and always has been a 5% issue, creating content that no one but a few run is BAd business PEROID....

The thread is about balancing casters vs. melee. If they balance casters for the "95%", then it is very likely to improve balance for the 5%. Caster balance is a problem throughout the game.

And the 5% is more important than just the money they themselves pay. If they feel like there's nothing in the game for them, and they leave, then other players start to feel like the game has nothing to work towards.


Dpo you really even have a clue how it is to create this game? Tostay within the limitations they have and still keep it a goign concern? Not likely it seems....

I doubt I have any less of a clue than you do. I'm not asking for the moon here. Just improvement. Balance was better prior to U9, so I know it's possible to improve it.

gloopygloop
12-08-2011, 11:18 AM
The thread is about balancing casters vs. melee. If they balance casters for the "95%", then it is very likely to improve balance for the 5%.


That's simply not an accurate statement when the primary diference between the 5% and the 95% is DC (which it is).

If 95% of the melee characters in the game could only hit enemies on a 14+ and 5% of the melee characters in the game could hit enemies on a 2+, then it would be *very* hard for Turbine to balance melee characters against each other or against any other flavor of character.

95% of spellcasters have a low enough DC on their Necro spells that Wail is not unbalancing when those casters are in a party.

4% of spellcasters have a high enough DC that Wail is probably too strong, but it's not rediculous.

Less than 1% of spellcasters have the insanely high DC + debuffs + Spell Penetration to make Shade tear his hair out.


Really well built spellcasters are probably too strong in most leveling content. Most well built characters of any type are probably too strong in most leveling content, though, so that's really not saying very much.

Really well build spellcasters don't have enough obstacles in high level quests that are highly resistant or immune to magic. But the answer to that isn't to make everything in every quest more resistant to a specific type of magic. The answer to that is to mix things up better and provide more variety among quests and more variety inside of each quest.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 11:35 AM
That's simply not an accurate statement when the primary diference between the 5% and the 95% is DC (which it is).

If 95% of the melee characters in the game could only hit enemies on a 14+ and 5% of the melee characters in the game could hit enemies on a 2+, then it would be *very* hard for Turbine to balance melee characters against each other or against any other flavor of character.

95% of spellcasters have a low enough DC on their Necro spells that Wail is not unbalancing when those casters are in a party.

4% of spellcasters have a high enough DC that Wail is probably too strong, but it's not rediculous.

Less than 1% of spellcasters have the insanely high DC + debuffs + Spell Penetration to make Shade tear his hair out.


Really well built spellcasters are probably too strong in most leveling content. Most well built characters of any type are probably too strong in most leveling content, though, so that's really not saying very much.

Really well build spellcasters don't have enough obstacles in high level quests that are highly resistant or immune to magic. But the answer to that isn't to make everything in every quest more resistant to a specific type of magic. The answer to that is to mix things up better and provide more variety among quests and more variety inside of each quest.

Great post... +1

dkyle
12-08-2011, 11:46 AM
That's simply not an accurate statement when the primary diference between the 5% and the 95% is DC (which it is).

A "95%" caster in the hardest epics? Yeah, not unbalancing. A 95% caster in the content that 95% of players tend to play? Unbalancing. They have lower DCs, but they also tend to play content with lower saves.

To me, the benchmark for balance in an MMO is comparing characters with similar degrees of advancement. Compare an Nth percentile caster to an Nth percentile melee, playing content suitable for them, and I think the caster will almost always be way more powerful than the melee. That's why it's not a 5% issue. No matter where you are in the game's character progression (aside from very low levels, perhaps), you'd be more powerful if you'd chosen to play a caster instead of a melee. That's the balance problem.

If we fix Wail to not be overpowered at 38 DC in the content that newly minted 20s run, then that might also fix Wail at 48 DC in Epics.


Really well build spellcasters don't have enough obstacles in high level quests that are highly resistant or immune to magic. But the answer to that isn't to make everything in every quest more resistant to a specific type of magic. The answer to that is to mix things up better and provide more variety among quests and more variety inside of each quest.

I don't think tons of resistances and immunities to magic is a good thing either. It tends towards a game where casters are OP in some quests, and useless in others. Ideal would be allowing most characters be able to contribute meaningfully, and to similar degrees, in all situations, but in different ways. For example, if we reduce caster sustained damage (to ensure that melee sustained damage stays relevant), we might instead give them more debuff capabilities that work on Raid bosses. A Hold Monster that actually works on them, but only for a few seconds, could be a way a caster contributes party damage output and damage mitigation, but doesn't step on melee toes.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 11:57 AM
To me, the benchmark for balance in an MMO is comparing characters with similar degrees of advancement. Compare an Nth percentile caster to an Nth percentile melee, playing content suitable for them, and I think the caster will almost always be way more powerful than the melee. That's why it's not a 5% issue. No matter where you are in the game's character progression (aside from very low levels, perhaps), you'd be more powerful if you'd chosen to play a caster instead of a melee. That's the balance problem.

A well-geared well-played melee cruises through 1-19 just as fast as a well-geared well-played caster


If we fix Wail to not be overpowered at 38 DC in the content that newly minted 20s run, then that might also fix Wail at 48 DC in Epics.

Wail is the main issue. Cap it at 4 kills, so casters can't gather up 30 mobs at red-alert and kill them all with one-click. Make it so they at least have to kite them through a firewall or something :)

There. We're done. What's wrong with that solution?




I don't think tons of resistances and immunities to magic is a good thing either. It tends towards a game where casters are OP in some quests, and useless in others.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. There's no law that says every class should be able to solo every quest.

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Anything and everything that encourages teamplay play and cross-class coordination is awesome and should be promoted. This is one of them. The day it died, the game got worse.

Hells it was touted as the "MAJOR NEW FEATURE" of dragonage 2 where they specificly set up all kind of cross-class specials where you freeze a monster, then the fighter or rogue gets special bonuses against it..

Encouraging teamwork is an aweosme and great thing about mmos.

Making a few classes severely overpowered to the point they can solo any and eveyr epic quest in the game using exactly 2 differnet spells 99% of the time is utterly broken and does not encourage smart gameplay, discourages teamwork and makes the game less fun for everyone that doenst play said classes.

Up to here I agree.


Just because YOU don't like the social aspect of melee and casters workign together, doesnt mean anything. It's a completely proven, logical and smart aspect of the game.

This is where the train stops bud. Over the years I bet no one more than myself has posted that D&D is supposed to be a FORCED COOPERATION GAME (I use this specific term ALOT). If you re-read through anything I posted on this specific issue, you will understand that I agree that casters are OP and something needs to be done, I just dont agree with you on what to change to make this happen. We both seem to agree that its the AOE deathspells that are OP, and Ive posted more than once that they should just limit the number of targets on mass death spells to a small number with a larger cooldown.

You on the other hand tried to alter the entire system either using blanket immunities in your earlier suggestions, or changing what the spells do completely in your current suggestions.

I am asking for the scalpel approach to solving the issue, altering the one thing that makes necro casters OP. You are asking for the nuclear warhead approach in this thread. We have seen what happens historically when Turbine uses the sweeping types of approaches that change the entire way certain mechanics work that you seem to favor.


And its one that remains, be it only in epic challenge,s or when groups with weaker casters. The players shouldnt be forced into such specific content, or specific builds tho.

They shouldnt be forced into specific roles either due to a nerf.


The intention of U9 spell pass was to make more specs versatile and useful in endgame, but what it ended up doing was making it so only 1 spec was acceptable. Players will always gravitate and seek the easiest means to the end, and when 1 way is a million times easier then any of the others, its damaging to the core gameplay.

This is a perfect example of exactly what I am talking about, when Turbine makes sweeping adjustments rather than just tweaking one or two things, this is what happens.


The majority get that. This thread wouldn't be hitting 200 replies in under 2 days if it wasn't damaged.

No one, including myself, is disputing that casters are OP. We disagree on what should be done about it.


Yes the idea isn't super popular, I didn't expect that it would be.. Lot of D&D purist and "GIME EASY BUTTON" ppl on the forums as always.

But if not this, something has to change. This is just one idea.

The scalpel approach is to adjust mass death spells so they can hit a limited amount of targets - say 3. Thats it. No other adjustment needed, other than a period of time to observe the impact this has to make sure the nerf had the intended effect.

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:14 PM
Wail is the main issue. Cap it at 4 kills, so casters can't gather up 30 mobs at red-alert and kill them all with one-click. Make it so they at least have to kite them through a firewall or something :)

There. We're done. What's wrong with that solution?



This is what I am suggesting. Its the surgical approach to resolving the issue.

Marthesis
12-08-2011, 12:21 PM
I agree insta-kills feel like they cheapen the gameplay. The way I see it, the two main reasons for this is that:
a) They're all or nothing.
b) They make all previous damage to the mob meaningless.

Fixing one or the other would improve things a hundred times over.

You could fix the "all-or-nothing" problem by giving it the vorpal treatment: instead of insta-kill, if it is a high-hp mob, do a huge chunk of damage instead.

Or, you could fix the "previous damage meaningless" by making the save DCs of these spells based on the current health of the target. For example, if insta-kill DCs were (BaseDC * (HPlost/maxHP + 0.5)), it would be much harder to insta-kill a mob at full health, but at half health, it becomes as easy as it is now, and as health drops further, it becomes even easier. This way whittling down the health of the enemies becomes more imporant. (Formula can be tweaked to make the extremes more drastic or less drastic if needed.)

dkyle
12-08-2011, 12:23 PM
A well-geared well-played melee cruises through 1-19 just as fast as a well-geared well-played caster

More like, a well-geared melee cruises through 1-19 as fast as a caster with barely any gear at all.


Wail is the main issue. Cap it at 4 kills, so casters can't gather up 30 mobs at red-alert and kill them all with one-click. Make it so they at least have to kite them through a firewall or something :)

There. We're done. What's wrong with that solution?

Mostly because I wouldn't like having the game pick which 4 enemies get killed. If I want to cast a spell on a group of enemies, I want it to target the ones I expect.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. There's no law that says every class should be able to solo every quest.

I wasn't talking about soloing.

My point is: being OP in some cases but useless is in others is more balanced than being OP in all cases, but I think it's less fun than having something to contribute to the team, without overpowering them, in most cases.

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:26 PM
A "95%" caster in the hardest epics? Yeah, not unbalancing. A 95% caster in the content that 95% of players tend to play? Unbalancing. They have lower DCs, but they also tend to play content with lower saves.

To me, the benchmark for balance in an MMO is comparing characters with similar degrees of advancement. Compare an Nth percentile caster to an Nth percentile melee, playing content suitable for them, and I think the caster will almost always be way more powerful than the melee. That's why it's not a 5% issue. No matter where you are in the game's character progression (aside from very low levels, perhaps), you'd be more powerful if you'd chosen to play a caster instead of a melee. That's the balance problem.

If we fix Wail to not be overpowered at 38 DC in the content that newly minted 20s run, then that might also fix Wail at 48 DC in Epics.

This is one of the things I have been talking about for a while now. This is also a relative statement. The issue I see is that in game, I see ALOT of LFMs requiring 44+ DC casters for fairly easy epic content. Then on the forums, I see ALOT of moaning about how these casters are destroying everything in epics.

The people complaining about casters are not running with casters who are playing the content to get better gear for that toon. They are playing casters who are well overgeared for the content they are playing in who are there to get BTA ingredients for their other toons. When we demand an Nth percentile caster in our LFMs to play in Nth-7 percential content, what did we think the result was going to be?

voodoogroves
12-08-2011, 12:27 PM
This is what I am suggesting. Its the surgical approach to resolving the issue.

Surgical works. There are several, very easy ways to do that ...

- cap the kills at a set number (4 is the suggestion here)
- increase the cool down
- give some mobs (not all, some) random upon spawning defenses, including deathblock possibly

The first two are more predictable for players, which is why I favor the third as it limits our ability to metagame.


What we don't want to do is increase the spread on saves/DCs such that we turn it into the unusable range which is AC ...

Jandric
12-08-2011, 12:29 PM
If insta-kill is "fixed"

Sorc will take over :P


That's most likely what would happen if Shade got his way. Quite frankly, I think they should just add a new level of difficulty called "Shade" above Epic so that ppl that have every epic piece of gear+ completionist can run with their casters that can apparently sustain DC 50 and have a blast without imbalancing the game for the other 99.9% of the player base. A less tongue in cheek approach would be a sliding epic scale from lvl 21-30. That way Uber toons can play in the lvl 30 sandbox without adversely affecting the game for everyone else.

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:30 PM
Mostly because I wouldn't like having the game pick which 4 enemies get killed. If I want to cast a spell on a group of enemies, I want it to target the ones I expect.



Mobs nearest the center origin of the AE get effected first.

Its up to the caster to pick and choose which scenarios are the juicy opportunities to use it in, and which are better to use single target, nukes, or CC. A good player will understand what those situations are, and the bad player will hit the wail button each time its available with little to no effect.

Vellrad
12-08-2011, 12:35 PM
Wail is the main issue. Cap it at 4 kills, so casters can't gather up 30 mobs at red-alert and kill them all with one-click. Make it so they at least have to kite them through a firewall or something :)

There. We're done. What's wrong with that solution?


Hmm, maybe that wail becomes gimped version of implosion, and now most casters will just TR to cleric?

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:38 PM
Surgical works. There are several, very easy ways to do that ...

- cap the kills at a set number (4 is the suggestion here)
- increase the cool down
- give some mobs (not all, some) random upon spawning defenses, including deathblock possibly

The first two are more predictable for players, which is why I favor the third as it limits our ability to metagame.

If a mob has deathblock it should have it for a reason. For example in the challenges:

Drow witchdoctor has deathward - fine by me.
Drow rogue has deathblock - fine by me.

Scorpions, dogs, and rats all have deathblock? No. I think its reasonable to think that every rat isnt running around in its deathblock snuggie. We have to draw a line somewhere.


What we don't want to do is increase the spread on saves/DCs such that we turn it into the unusable range which is AC ...

This is the kind of stuff Turbine likes to do when making adjustments. If and when this happens, the wizards will all TR into sorcs, and instead of AE deathspelling stuff, we will be AE nuking it down just as easily.

Chai
12-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Hmm, maybe that wail becomes gimped version of implosion, and now most casters will just TR to cleric?

How many clerics do you know that have a 45 DC implosion?

voodoogroves
12-08-2011, 12:42 PM
If a mob has deathblock it should have it for a reason. For example in the challenges:

Drow witchdoctor has deathward - fine by me.
Drow rogue has deathblock - fine by me.

Scorpions, dogs, and rats all have deathblock? No. I think its reasonable to think that every rat isnt running around in its deathblock snuggie. We have to draw a line somewhere.

Yep, completely agree. I know it's more time to code but I'd love to see that kind of variability.

Epic rogues w/ cheat death, slippery mind, etc.
Witchdoctor w/ deathward - great.
Some chance for epic melee mob to have any and all of FoM, Deathblock, Heavy Fort, etc. ... also fine for me
Epic animals with deathblock? No, not really.

CR for humanoids includes assumed equipment; it's why their CR and HD line up at different points than the CR/HD ratios of things like animals, elementals, vermin, etc.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 12:56 PM
I wasn't talking about soloing.

My point is: being OP in some cases but useless is in others is more balanced than being OP in all cases, but I think it's less fun than having something to contribute to the team, without overpowering them, in most cases.

I didn't say make quests where 100% of all mobs are immune to magic. I said sprinkle most quests with SOME mobs that mostly immune to magic..

Like Drow (you can still web and nuke them). Even though the House D epics are considered the "weak" epics, casters aren't overpowered in there... Neither are they useless. There are plenty of hobs to kill, and buffs to hand out, and casters contribute greatly to the boss fight.

Most casters are not soloing the House D epic quests. But they are an important part of any group.

Saravis
12-08-2011, 01:08 PM
If insta-kill is "fixed"

Sorc will take over :P

Only if the "fix" is Turbine's typical sledgehammer method. If they take the more surgical methods listed by Chai and Voodoo, insta-killers will have their kills, sorcs will have theirs, and melee (well who cares about melee).

It should also be worth noting, if they add deathblock and not deathward to epics, PMs can still be functional, they just won't be able to insta-kill everything, which might be a good thing considering the lack of good SP management on the part of PMs as of late.

Rodasch
12-08-2011, 01:11 PM
Wail is the main issue. Cap it at 1 kill/level, so casters can't gather up 30 mobs at red-alert and kill them all with one-click. Make it so they at least have to kite them through a firewall or something :)

There. We're done. What's wrong with that solution?


Fixed that for you.

Rodasch
12-08-2011, 01:15 PM
This is one of the things I have been talking about for a while now. This is also a relative statement. The issue I see is that in game, I see ALOT of LFMs requiring 44+ DC casters for fairly easy epic content. Then on the forums, I see ALOT of moaning about how these casters are destroying everything in epics.

The people complaining about casters are not running with casters who are playing the content to get better gear for that toon. They are playing casters who are well overgeared for the content they are playing in who are there to get BTA ingredients for their other toons. When we demand an Nth percentile caster in our LFMs to play in Nth-7 percential content, what did we think the result was going to be?

exactly.

step 1: only accept overgeared, min-maxed players to your group
step 2: complain your group is not challenged
step 3: ....
step 4: profit!

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 01:19 PM
Fixed that for you.

1 kill/level doesn't fix the problem... Killing 20 mobs at a time is what people are complaining about and is a big part of what makes casters OP.

I know you'd rather they just fixed the AI... but I'm pretty sure maxing wail to 3-5 kills would take 1000 times less time than fixing the AI.

Cyr
12-08-2011, 01:20 PM
I know you'd rather they just fixed the AI... but I'm pretty sure maxing wail to 3-5 kills would take 1000 times less time than fixing the AI.

And have a chance of actually working on the first release.

Simplicity certainly has it's place.

gloopygloop
12-08-2011, 01:21 PM
I expect Turbine to fix AoE mass insta-kills in high level content by limiting the Sorcerer's Air Savant leap/fly ability. It would be consistant with their past efforts at balancing the game.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 01:22 PM
exactly.

step 1: only accept overgeared, min-maxed players to your group
step 2: complain your group is not challenged
step 3: ....
step 4: profit!

That IS the funny part after all... Shade has posted many times that he doesn't just let ANYONE join his groups... Maybe he should only let in people that are good, but not quite as good as himself.

Krusty the Clown: First Rule - you can't be funnier than me. And I'm pretty bad.

Rodasch
12-08-2011, 01:23 PM
1 kill/level doesn't fix the problem... Killing 20 mobs at a time is what people are complaining about and is a big part of what makes casters OP.

I know you'd rather they just fixed the AI... but I'm pretty sure maxing wail to 3-5 kills would take 1000 times less time than fixing the AI.

No, sorry I meant cap the targets at 1/level, so 20 monsters affected, some will save, some will make sr, etc. rest don't even need to roll.

This keeps people from wailing a red alert swarm of 30 monsters and killing all but 2.

It actually works out to ensure that at least 2-4 monsters in any swarm of 10-20 will survive and guarantees any pulls of 30 will have 10+ monsters still alive after that wail resolves. furthermore, any deathwarded monsters count against the total too if it tries to affect them.

Thrudh
12-08-2011, 01:25 PM
No, sorry I meant cap the targets at 1/level, so 20 monsters affected, some will save, some will make sr, etc. rest don't even need to roll.

This keeps people from wailing a red alert swarm of 30 monsters and killing all but 2.

It actually works out to ensure that at least 2-4 monsters in any swarm of 10-20 will survive and guarantees any pulls of 30 will have 10+ monsters still alive after that wail resolves. furthermore, any deathwarded monsters count against the total too if it tries to affect them.

But that's exactly how it is now for 95% of casters... 2-4 monsters survive in any swarm of 10-20...

Only the casters Shade run with kill all 20 with one click of the easy button. And your proposal won't change that. Killing 20 is still OP.

grodon9999
12-08-2011, 01:26 PM
I expect Turbine to fix AoE mass insta-kills in high level content by limiting the Sorcerer's Air Savant leap/fly ability. It would be consistant with their past efforts at balancing the game.

Nah, they'll just increase fortification! :)

maddmatt70
12-08-2011, 01:29 PM
How many clerics do you know that have a 45 DC implosion?

If a cleric/fvs/wiz/sorc, etc are played smartly with insta kills you do not need a 45 dc to dominate with insta kills. Use Symbol of death to set up insta-kill fields then implode and anything left over energy drain with single target instakill. If there are still some straggles you run to the next mob grouping with the old mobs following and do the same thing. Since all these classes are capable of pretty solid self healing with spells/scrolls/and silver flame pots you can get away with alot.

A greater spell focus item is pretty easy to attain with crafting in game, +6 stat, +3 exceptional fairly trivial, +2 tome, greater spell focus feat. It is not too hard to get to low 40s which is where this starts to take off.

Yes, the OP has his own agenda which has to do with Barbarians and Greatsword/Greataxes, but there is the point that trash mobs are in alot of quests and a major part of quest play. We spend probably 80% of our time in a quest dealing with trash so if you are just sort of there along for the ride during that 80% of a quest that is boring. There is also the basic fact that instakills do not work well with melee. I think it is important to give melee some more opportunities to thrive then just red named. The whole red named thing seems a little trivial as well by the way.

Talon_Moonshadow
12-08-2011, 01:41 PM
I remember a time when everyone ran epics, using "tactics" that allowed everyone to avoid fighting 90+% of the monsters in the dungeon.

In fact, the epics that you could not avoid fighting most of the monsters were seldom done, and people claimed they were too hard.

So....forgive me if I have trouble seeing a problem with instakilling mages now being able to actually kill those same monsters that people avoided fighting before.



I also remember a time when peole wanted "one" single mage....who had to have a certain extremely high DC....so that mage can just "hold" everything in the dungeon so the melees can kill it super quick with zero effort.

Again.....forgive me for not being sympathetic now.




And if that isn't enough.
People won't even allow my Wizard to run epics, cause my DCs aren't high enough for "their" standards. (even when there is another mage in the group already!)

Fogive me again.....but all I see is people wanted easy, effortless loot, in th equickest time.......
what exactly is the problem with instakill spells again? :confused:




But...then...I PUG all the time.
And you know what I see?
more correctly....you know what I don't see?

I don't see these mages you guys talk about. the ones who supposedly can kill everythin gin the dungeon with ease....
nope...I don't see them.
not on epics anyway.

Saw plenty of them in the Vale back when the cap was 16.
Saw them in Gianthold. People wouldn't do Crucible without one....
But in an epic PUG?
not there.

I'm sure they exist.
I see screen shots on the forums.
but never see them in the game.



But then..... it's also difficult fo rme to be sympathetic with people who have grinded every possible piece of loot there could ever desire.
have TRed to the perfect build.
have strived to be so far above what any casual player can ever dream of attaining.
who is "selective" in who they let group with them, cause thy don't want to be slowed down, or have any chance of failure......

and who complain that the game is suddenly too easy. (for them, or for their mage guildies)

Rodasch
12-08-2011, 01:51 PM
I remember a time when everyone ran epics, using "tactics" that allowed everyone to avoid fighting 90+% of the monsters in the dungeon.

In fact, the epics that you could not avoid fighting most of the monsters were seldom done, and people claimed they were too hard.

So....forgive me if I have trouble seeing a problem with instakilling mages now being able to actually kill those same monsters that people avoided fighting before.



I also remember a time when peole wanted "one" single mage....who had to have a certain extremely high DC....so that mage can just "hold" everything in the dungeon so the melees can kill it super quick with zero effort.

Again.....forgive me for not being sympathetic now.




And if that isn't enough.
People won't even allow my Wizard to run epics, cause my DCs aren't high enough for "their" standards. (even when there is another mage in the group already!)

Fogive me again.....but all I see is people wanted easy, effortless loot, in th equickest time.......
what exactly is the problem with instakill spells again? :confused:




But...then...I PUG all the time.
And you know what I see?
more correctly....you know what I don't see?

I don't see these mages you guys talk about. the ones who supposedly can kill everythin gin the dungeon with ease....
nope...I don't see them.
not on epics anyway.

Saw plenty of them in the Vale back when the cap was 16.
Saw them in Gianthold. People wouldn't do Crucible without one....
But in an epic PUG?
not there.

I'm sure they exist.
I see screen shots on the forums.
but never see them in the game.



But then..... it's also difficult fo rme to be sympathetic with people who have grinded every possible piece of loot there could ever desire.
have TRed to the perfect build.
have strived to be so far above what any casual player can ever dream of attaining.
who is "selective" in who they let group with them, cause thy don't want to be slowed down, or have any chance of failure......

and who complain that the game is suddenly too easy. (for them, or for their mage guildies)

This. +1, excellent post.

Vellrad
12-08-2011, 01:52 PM
How many clerics do you know that have a 45 DC implosion?

Exactly as many as casters with DC45 wails, which is 0.
And I'm sure, when/if wail will just be gimped version of implosion, there will be builds tergeted at getting max possible implosion DCs.

grodon9999
12-08-2011, 02:02 PM
Exactly as many as casters with DC45 wails, which is 0.
And I'm sure, when/if wail will just be gimped version of implosion, there will be builds tergeted at getting max possible implosion DCs.

with a +7 item, +4 INT TOME a human can hit a 45 DC sustainable. I know of at least 2 on G-Land who if they chose to drink pots can trivialize anything.

There's also a lot of stuff they can Tirivalize WITHOUT drinking pots . ..

Chai
12-08-2011, 02:22 PM
If a cleric/fvs/wiz/sorc, etc are played smartly with insta kills you do not need a 45 dc to dominate with insta kills. Use Symbol of death to set up insta-kill fields then implode and anything left over energy drain with single target instakill. If there are still some straggles you run to the next mob grouping with the old mobs following and do the same thing. Since all these classes are capable of pretty solid self healing with spells/scrolls/and silver flame pots you can get away with alot.

So where do we draw the line on how many spells we have to cast to kill a bunch of mobs being OP?

If I can push one button and wipe out 20 mobs, most will agree thats OP.

I can go into time is money, run north and rustle up 15-20 scorpions or so, toss down a web + symbol of death + wail and most if not all will be dead. Is that OP?

Now consider that I can clear em all out with one firewall + nascar strategy (run fast, turn left) which is considerably less mana than using the three spells I just outlined. Is that OP?


A greater spell focus item is pretty easy to attain with crafting in game, +6 stat, +3 exceptional fairly trivial, +2 tome, greater spell focus feat. It is not too hard to get to low 40s which is where this starts to take off.

Low 40s isnt as powerful as people make it out to be without some form of preparation, which you have outlined, which is why I ask at what point is it absurd to say this is OP. If a caster has to cast 2 or 3 spells to prep all the mobs with neg levels or neg saves before casting the AE death spell, this takes time to set up coordinate effectively, etc.


Yes, the OP has his own agenda which has to do with Barbarians and Greatsword/Greataxes, but there is the point that trash mobs are in alot of quests and a major part of quest play. We spend probably 80% of our time in a quest dealing with trash so if you are just sort of there along for the ride during that 80% of a quest that is boring. There is also the basic fact that instakills do not work well with melee. I think it is important to give melee some more opportunities to thrive then just red named. The whole red named thing seems a little trivial as well by the way.

Then why do alot of group leaders demand casters have a huge DC, and if they dont, tell them not to join the group? It is commonplace on any of the servers I play on to see this in LFMs for content that doesnt even need it. I think its cute that many people demand top of the line casters, then we act all surprised when the caster blows everything in the quest up with little to no need for any group support.

Limit wail to 3-4 targets. Problem solved.