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View Full Version : @ The Turbine Crew: A Solution to Epic and Cannith crafting compatibility problems.



Ziindarax
12-03-2011, 09:28 PM
The Cannith crafting system and epic augments don't play nicely with each other at this time.

If Epic Augments and Cannith Crafting have compatibility problems outright, why not change things up a bit -

Epic Cannith Augment slots - They work just like a colored augment except that they allow you to insert powerful effects into them. Example - A player makes a Disruption effect (not sure if disruption actually can be crafted as a weapon effect atm, but just throwing this out there as an example of what you COULD do) for his epic weapon. To place the enchantment onto the weapon, he combines the disruption shard with an epic dungeon token (or whatever number would be appropriate for the given effect). The recipe turns the Disruption shard into a Greater Disruption shard that can only be imbued on an epic weapon.

The Cannith Epic Augments could either use their own slot independent of the colored slots, OR they could use the colored slot on that item if the properties match (E.G. You craft a +6 constitution shard, and it's upgraded by the cannith epic augment to +7. This augment uses up the colorless slot and would require a colorless catalyst in order to fully imbue the effect into the item).

Now to make the suggestion MORE interesting, what if this same effect could be BOTH independent AND use the slots. A player with an epic item could, if the item allowed for it, have four effects (2 suffix and 2 prefix, or perhaps ignoring the suffix and just allowing for four of any effects).

Yes, this might make an item imbalanced, but considering we can already sell DDO store loot, and buy DDO store mana potions to effectively ignore the limits of the caster classes (essentially making the game imbalanced through their consumption of a hypothetically unlimited resource), I don't think this would really be that much of a stretch. If anything, it would make melees capable of competing with casters, and this system wouldn't exclude anyone. In truth, it would benefit everyone able to utilize this advantage.

Deslotting these effects would work the same way as other, currently existing augments for epic items.

One important caveat for the sake of balance, due to the potent nature of these shards, Marks of Cannith should NOT be able to reduce the ML of the epic items (this way, a player can't have something like ESoS with Epic Cannith upgrades at level 18).

Further levels into the Cannith Crafting system could introduce potent effects such as Lightning strike for use in slots such as Red augment slots. This allows items such as the Epic Cannith Challenge loot to not only compete with their lesser variants, but exceed them (and by such a degree that a player would actually want to invest the time and effort to obtain and fully upgrade the epic versions). Epic Raid Tokens could be used for even stronger effects (Greater Incineration, Greater Lightning strike weapon/guard, or even another increase in the base damage dice of a weapon, or greater increase in the AC of an item).

BlackSteel
12-03-2011, 11:18 PM
I was going to make a similar suggestion. A little less involved tho.

Simply sell red/colorless/blue/etc craftable blank augments from the epic vender.

You take this augment gem over to the cannith crafting station and plop it down with whatever shard it is u want to use.

red obviously only takes weapon suffix/prefixes.
blue would be armor only abilities
and yellow could be things that are only craftable on accessories


colorless slots I'd be wary of having them be too useful. Maybe any recipe under a certain crafting level?

MaximumCharisma
12-04-2011, 08:03 AM
if i feel forced to lvl a toon in crafting past lvl 1, i for one will quit the game. Not saying that is what you intend, but i think that current crafting is beyond NOT DnD. If my dungeon master (aka GM) had told me that I need to stare at a wall for 5 hours a day for 2 weeks to 'craft' a pnp item, i would tell him where to go.

Book_O_Dragons
12-04-2011, 02:42 PM
if i feel forced to lvl a toon in crafting past lvl 1, i for one will quit the game. Not saying that is what you intend, but i think that current crafting is beyond NOT DnD. If my dungeon master (aka GM) had told me that I need to stare at a wall for 5 hours a day for 2 weeks to 'craft' a pnp item, i would tell him where to go.

That is how it works in pnp you just don't have to look at it.

Ziindarax
12-04-2011, 07:46 PM
I was going to make a similar suggestion. A little less involved tho.

Simply sell red/colorless/blue/etc craftable blank augments from the epic vender.

You take this augment gem over to the cannith crafting station and plop it down with whatever shard it is u want to use.

red obviously only takes weapon suffix/prefixes.
blue would be armor only abilities
and yellow could be things that are only craftable on accessories


colorless slots I'd be wary of having them be too useful. Maybe any recipe under a certain crafting level?

Not a bad idea. And it wouldn't require any levels into cannith crafting either. :)

Forgeborn
12-05-2011, 05:42 AM
if i feel forced to lvl a toon in crafting past lvl 1, i for one will quit the game. Not saying that is what you intend, but i think that current crafting is beyond NOT DnD. If my dungeon master (aka GM) had told me that I need to stare at a wall for 5 hours a day for 2 weeks to 'craft' a pnp item, i would tell him where to go.

Actually, your pnp character is doing just that, except much much longer (enchanting goes with a value of 1000 gold per day, item is 'finished' when you meet the value of the enchantments*) except in DDO you actually need to gather some junk first and level your crafting skills up, instead of just saying 'I make xxx' and then fast forward [half] a year with a slight recap of what happens.

Crafting mundane items went a little faster, depending on skills, but still took a fair share of your characters time**

Of course, I do have to admit, it's a lot easier to just say 'I make xxx' and scribble 3 lines on your sheet, assuming the DM allows the excessive downtime to be fast forwarded and doesn't interrupt you with 'nation xxx attacks nation yyy, and one of them calls for your aid!' somewhere during the crafting process.



*Page for 'craft magic arms and armor on the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Craft_Magic_Arms_and_Armor)
for example, a +5 vorpal sword (+10 total modifier in pnp I believe) would be 10*10*2000 gold = 200.000 gold pieces worth, to craft it your caster would be spending 8 hours a day, 200 days in a row staring at that wall (for amusement: +5 holy burst greater bane = +13 = 338000 base value = 338 days of 8 hours each to 'craft' it)

**crafting page on the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Craft_Skill)
progress is/was by week: appropriate craft check * appropriate DC (can voluntarily raise by multiples of 10 to speed up, failing this check by 5 or more ruins progress made on the item) = value you craft that week in silver pieces. Item is finished when you meet, or beat, the base value of the item, can take 10 on the craft checks.

---

For the OP: As long as weapon effects stay on red, armor effects stay on blue, and the assorted utility effects on yellow, and the stat enchants on colorless, I don't see to much of a problem with the idea in general, but the idea of coding it makes me get nightmares already. (Also, disruption cannot be crafted, and yes I know it was just an example.)

Avidus
12-05-2011, 08:05 AM
Maybe I am wrong about this, I don't think I am but you never know.

When Eladrin said 'The Cannith crafting system and epic augments don't play nicely with each other at this time.' I am pretty sure he was talking about how the code for each of the systems was implented. I don't think he (i.e. the entire dev team.} needed suggestions on how to blend the 2 systems together(I am sure they thought of many, many ways to do so in fact), it was more of a 'we can not, at this time, effectively merge the two systems without majorly overhauling one of them.'

That said I do hope there will be a reasonable solution to this issue sometime in the near future.

All in all making a 'canith shard' for the augment slot then crafting it up, does seem like a good way to eventually merge the two.

Glenalth
12-05-2011, 03:08 PM
That said I do hope there will be a reasonable solution to this issue sometime in the near future.

All in all making a 'canith shard' for the augment slot then crafting it up, does seem like a good way to eventually merge the two.

Having a list of epic augment crystals added to the crafting interface seems like a quick and easy way to get it done. It would also let them control what could be crafted onto epic items a bit easier instead of messing with multiple altars to make blank crystals and shard sets that are craftable onto them.

gloopygloop
12-05-2011, 03:21 PM
Actually, your pnp character is doing just that, except much much longer (enchanting goes with a value of 1000 gold per day, item is 'finished' when you meet the value of the enchantments*) except in DDO you actually need to gather some junk first and level your crafting skills up, instead of just saying 'I make xxx' and then fast forward [half] a year with a slight recap of what happens.

The fact that you don't have to participate in your character's downtime is the biggest difference here.

If you had to write "I am crafting a magic item" 10,000 times in order to have your character make a magic item, there's no way you would do so. Any boredom that your character feels is not transferred to you as a player as long as that boredom happens "off screen".

NytCrawlr
12-05-2011, 03:23 PM
Not saying that is what you intend, but i think that current crafting is beyond NOT DnD.

You're right, this is not D&D. This is an MMO BASED on D&D....

Case closed.

CaptGrim
12-05-2011, 03:45 PM
errr how about we not have to deal with a "New" crafting system and just dramaticly expand/upgrade existising slot augments. A balanceing of token costs is needed as well and could be done along side up grades.

One thing I would like to see is the ability to use 2 slots in the same item for a +2 exceptional. ToD rings are soooo 2009.

nayozz
04-24-2012, 05:35 AM
or you could get rid of all epic augment slot of lvl 20 cannith items and just give a +X craftable :D
tier 2 being +3 tier 3 being higher...


i prefer much an epic cannith item with craftable and none epic augment slots than viceversa :D

Dragavon
04-25-2012, 03:27 AM
if i feel forced to lvl a toon in crafting past lvl 1, i for one will quit the game. Not saying that is what you intend, but i think that current crafting is beyond NOT DnD. If my dungeon master (aka GM) had told me that I need to stare at a wall for 5 hours a day for 2 weeks to 'craft' a pnp item, i would tell him where to go.

You know, for a craftsman, making an item usually involves an activity called work. I do, as an example, work 8 hours a day on a CNC-controlled milling machine making machine parts from cast iron blanks.

In PnP D&D games this is handled by a GM that says you spend 14 says, some materials and some money, then tells you to roll for success. You cannot really handle crafting like that in DDO.

The way crafting is handled on DDO is fair enough imo. It requires some effort, and gives you enough advantages to be wortwhile, but you can perfectly well play DDO without ever looking at it If that is what you prefer.

Syllph
04-25-2012, 06:34 AM
Actually, your pnp character is doing just that, except much much longer (enchanting goes with a value of 1000 gold per day, item is 'finished' when you meet the value of the enchantments*) except in DDO you actually need to gather some junk first and level your crafting skills up, instead of just saying 'I make xxx' and then fast forward [half] a year with a slight recap of what happens.



I'd love to see a DM that doesn't allow this :)

Ok Timmy, you want to make that +5 greatsword? Fine you begin the process, now go stand in the corner away from us until this session is over and I'll explain the details in a few hours. :)

Kinerd
04-25-2012, 04:52 PM
You know, for a craftsman, making an item usually involves an activity called work.Cutting, funny, well-timed. Well-said, approve.