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View Full Version : Pretty important change not in release notes.



LeLoric
11-29-2011, 03:47 AM
Doing a tier 3 upgrade of an item now binds it to your character.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1024/screenshot00133.jpg

Confirmed on a tier 3 elemental rapier/tier 3 elemental bow/tier 3 blasting chime all made today. All of them were bta for first two tiers.

This is information that really needs to be given out before this goes live and not something that was just overlooked in release notes.

Unfortunately my character xfers are already used up so I can not check on any retroactive changes to already made tier 3's.

Ertay
11-29-2011, 10:15 AM
please do not stealth nerf. thanks.

Dandonk
11-29-2011, 10:16 AM
Meh :(

Cyr
11-29-2011, 10:25 AM
/bleh

These are situational items for the most part. They really should be BtA.

At this point I am convinced that selling bank/inventory/bags is heavily influencing decisions with loot structures.

Tobril
11-29-2011, 10:27 AM
Are the ingredients still BtC? If so, then :mad:

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 10:30 AM
Are the ingredients still BtC? If so, then :mad:

No ingredients are bta thats in the release notes.

Im not necessarily against the change as almost any other item of this type is btc but they really need to let people know.

Tobril
11-29-2011, 10:33 AM
No ingredients are bta thats in the release notes.

Im not necessarily against the change as almost any other item of this type is btc but they really need to let people know.


That’s a good change then, as it finally makes sense and aligns with how the other similar events work.


I do agree that:

1 – Big whistles and bells when stuff like this changes
2 – Do it in a way that makes sense the first time and not have to make a million changes

Galeria
11-29-2011, 10:34 AM
I don't know if this is just sloppy work or outright dishonesty.

Neither is good.

In the end, what will make me walk away from this game is this sort of thing. The refusal of the staff to either be thorough enough to document changes before releasing them or the outright intentional choice of not documenting them. Because of course, if they don't tell us, we won't notice, right?

To be clear- I have no ingredients, no items and have not run the challenges enough to be anywhere close to making items. It's not the change that I find as insulting as the not being upfront about it.

Hendrik
11-29-2011, 10:56 AM
So, L20 EPIC loot is BtC?

Besides not in the notes, why is this a surprise?

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 11:05 AM
So, L20 EPIC loot is BtC?

Besides not in the notes, why is this a surprise?

Because currently on live it is not. It's not the fact that it is getting changed it's just that there should be notice as people are spending time to get ingredients/make items live right now. To have patch day come and that item is on the worng character or they do an upgrade fully expecting it to work like thier last tier 3 and then they go to swap it in the bank to the character they want and get the surprise. Yes if they read the barter box it says that but how many people read stuff in this game past the first time. People don't read quest text everytime.

Cyr
11-29-2011, 11:11 AM
So, L20 EPIC loot is BtC?

Besides not in the notes, why is this a surprise?


It's not that way on live currently.
The same sort of thing was bandied about for cove stuff. There was an outcry on the forums over it. Turbine reversed course. This mechanic is pretty dang similar to cove loot. So having them do the same sort of thing over again seems pretty silly to me.
Because upgrading an item actually making it worse is not exactly intuitive. Kind of a similar issue on the crafting slots -> epic augments slots on non-epic to epic gear from the challenges coming about.

Enoach
11-29-2011, 11:13 AM
{sheepishly raises hand} I read every time... But then again, I read every road sign, poster etc.

My wife hates taking me to the fair past those booths with signs, cause she knows I'll have to read every one of them...

Cordovan
11-29-2011, 11:28 AM
We will be adding this information to the Release Notes.

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 11:28 AM
We will be adding this information to the Release Notes.

Thank you.

Will it be retroactive?

Jahmin
11-29-2011, 11:40 AM
We will be adding this information to the Release Notes.

Better yet, just forgo this ridiculous and unnecessary change :rolleyes:

Seikojin
11-29-2011, 12:27 PM
It is not a superflous change. It is a standardization for the loot. Code wise, the items don't have the btc. So they have to apply it after the fact. If they try to slipstream that into the items of this type, it may bubble up or drip down into other areas where it is not supposed to be.

JOTMON
11-29-2011, 12:54 PM
I don't know if this is just sloppy work or outright dishonesty.

Neither is good.

In the end, what will make me walk away from this game is this sort of thing. The refusal of the staff to either be thorough enough to document changes before releasing them or the outright intentional choice of not documenting them. Because of course, if they don't tell us, we won't notice, right?


I allways felt that undocument changes are akin to outright dishonesty.

Followed close behind is the failure to correct sloppy work quickly. (especially when hotfixes are quick to nerf.)

This whole haphazard attitude is a disgrace to the Turbine organization.
we have a motto where I work "Do it right the first time everytime"
If you are going to fix something then fix it right.

I find myself getting quite annoyed when I see changes to things that did not need to be screwed with in the first place like Abbott, the items there did not need to be neutered... and they still manage to screw it up and still not have them fixed quickly or correctly. In no way did they improve abbott, they made it worse and for the most part screwed it up, made it more difficult. Further reducing the pool of players running this raid. Wasted resources f'ing up a raid that did not need changing. Instead of putting resources into things that need fixing.

Other changes where they want WF to be able to be earthgrabbed.. kk i can deal with that but to nerf FOM to the point of almost uselessness. when at the same time they could have fixed FOM to allow no speed reduction while walking through pools of water etc... Limited earthgrab range, have earthgrab have a higher miss chance when jumping or save boosted by move silently skill.... etc..etc..etc..

Come on Turbine. take off the rosey coloured glasses and take real look around.. you are ****ing up and cant even see it.

redspecter23
11-29-2011, 01:05 PM
I allways felt that undocument changes are akin to outright dishonesty.

Followed close behind is the failure to correct sloppy work quickly. (especially when hotfixes are quick to nerf.)

This whole haphazard attitude is a disgrace to the Turbine organization.
we have a motto where I work "Do it right the first time everytime"
If you are going to fix something then fix it right.

I find myself getting quite annoyed when I see changes to things that did not need to be screwed with in the first place like Abbott, the items there did not need to be neutered... and they still manage to screw it up and still not have them fixed quickly or correctly. In no way did they improve abbott, they made it worse and for the most part screwed it up, made it more difficult. Further reducing the pool of players running this raid. Wasted resources f'ing up a raid that did not need changing. Instead of putting resources into things that need fixing.

Other changes where they want WF to be able to be earthgrabbed.. kk i can deal with that but to nerf FOM to the point of almost uselessness. when at the same time they could have fixed FOM to allow no speed reduction while walking through pools of water etc... Limited earthgrab range, have earthgrab have a higher miss chance when jumping or save boosted by move silently skill.... etc..etc..etc..

Come on Turbine. take off the rosey coloured glasses and take real look around.. you are ****ing up and cant even see it.

+1 for having the guts to say exactly what I'm thinking

BOgre
11-29-2011, 01:09 PM
We will be adding this information to the Release Notes.

doesn't it ever start to get embarrassing to have to come back to these issues over and over? Wouldn't it be great to put the effort in the first time? I've said it before, but Turbine really really really needs to implement ISO. To make the same mistakes more than once (more than DOZENS of times actually) is just plain lazy.

Chai
11-29-2011, 01:42 PM
Is it ONLY the tier 3 upgrade that binds it to character, or does even purchasing a tier one item bind the item to character now too?

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 01:44 PM
Is it ONLY the tier 3 upgrade that binds it to character, or does even purchasing a tier one item bind the item to character now too?

yes only tier 3

RedDragonScale
11-29-2011, 01:54 PM
We will be adding this information to the Release Notes.

Honestly, the information should have been included in the Release Notes the FIRST time.

Jahmin
11-29-2011, 02:03 PM
Honestly, the information should have been included in the Release Notes the FIRST time.

Honestly, the change should never have been contemplated let alone implemented :mad:

Setin_Myways
11-29-2011, 02:15 PM
so nayone want to take bets that this is intended to only be tier 3, but when it hits live, all the items become btc... to be addressed in a later patch :}

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 02:20 PM
so nayone want to take bets that this is intended to only be tier 3, but when it hits live, all the items become btc... to be addressed in a later patch :}

The descriptions on the barter box say specifically tier 3 only

Auran82
11-29-2011, 02:35 PM
The descriptions on the barter box say specifically tier 3 only

Good thing Turbine never gets the descriptions on things wrong.

I was worried for a moment there.

LeLoric
11-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Good thing Turbine never gets the descriptions on things wrong.

I was worried for a moment there.

Good thing I also checked personally it's all in the OP.

redspecter23
11-29-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm wondering at what point it was decided that tier 3 should btc instead of bta. If it was always intended to be that way, then the known issues at the time of U12 release should have stated that tier 3 challenge gear was incorrectly bta instead of btc, but this was not the case. If it was decided later that it should btc, the question is why bother changing it? Was it broken the way it was? No. Was it extremely unbalanced the way it was? No. So why waste time on a negative change that players will obviously not like. It accomplishes very little that is positive and pushes a negative onto players. I guess I just don't get it.

I will admit that I would have agreed with this if it was always that way. It's the unfinished nature of updates lately that has me scratching my head. U12 looked like it was about half done when they pushed it on us. Even after U12.1 it still won't be a complete update as they still have the mess with old abbot and reaver loot and it looks like abbot upgrades still don't work properly. Who knows if they're done with tweaking the challenges and/or challenge loot either. I guess what I'm saying is that this change just makes it look like they had no idea what the challenge loot scheme was meant to be at the time of release. It shows very poor dev team leadership if even they don't know what it's supposed to look like when it's done. I suppose I'm used to the old days where in general an update was a finished product and patches were there to fix bugs or known issues, not tweak with something that should have been completed already.

Kinerd
11-29-2011, 06:05 PM
The challenges are currently inferior content in the eyes of the player base. It makes no sense to make them less desirable in any way, especially when they are the most expensive content in the game. Are they specifically intended to fail? What is going on here.

What makes it even more incomprehensible is that tier 3 isn't even that much of an improvement over tier 2 for most of this gear, or even tier 1 for that matter. If I look at a Mournlode weapon, why would I trade 3600 Epic ingredients, 5 tokens, and the BtA status for a blind ability (on an undead weapon) and an augment slot? I mean, really?

Standal
11-29-2011, 06:48 PM
The challenges are currently inferior content in the eyes of the player base. It makes no sense to make them less desirable in any way, especially when they are the most expensive content in the game. Are they specifically intended to fail? What is going on here.

As a premium player, the problem here is that Turbine caved to VIP pressure to make the artificer class unlockable by Cannith favor. If you wished to buy the challenge pack and the artificer class, the pack price is not bad. If you aren't interested in artificers or already bought the class, the price is ridiculous.

B0ltdrag0n
11-29-2011, 08:13 PM
As a premium player, the problem here is that Turbine caved to VIP pressure to make the artificer class unlockable by Cannith favor. If you wished to buy the challenge pack and the artificer class, the pack price is not bad. If you aren't interested in artificers or already bought the class, the price is ridiculous.

No. That is a silly statement. They had to make Artificer unlockable via favor or else give it to VIP's for free by their own wording of what VIP was. There was no 'pressure' to make it free via unlock, the pressure was actually to make it 'free without unlock' originally.

The price pack on the challenges, though, is silly high. 15 dollars for 4 missions. Sure they have other 'options' but it is still just 4 missions.

Scraap
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
As a premium player, the problem here is that Turbine caved to VIP pressure to make the artificer class unlockable by Cannith favor. If you wished to buy the challenge pack and the artificer class, the pack price is not bad. If you aren't interested in artificers or already bought the class, the price is ridiculous.

Doesn't hold water. 21 possibilities to 5star these for 5 points per is 105 points. You'll still need to gind the favor on the other pack, so unlock is 2k points, or <1k to not actually play the game, and just use the store.

Hephaistor
11-30-2011, 01:31 AM
So, it is one more of the "in before the nerf" things? If you allready have a tier3 item before 12.1 hits live, will it stay bta? I didn't mind that the early canith crafters could make all the nice things without mystical stuff, purified shards and marks, as it was known to be BETA. But this is a pack I bought and I see it like that: Because I do only have a moderate amount of time and didn't finish my items yet I would have to grind more. But those lucky enough to finish the new things asap get the pre-nerv loot. I am not envy about the other players, but I read about the new item I thought to myself: Oh nice, bta. This things will be worth investing some of my sacred playing time, as I can use them on all my 5 toons and won't lose them if I reroll. I can still do that, but no epic slots for me then. Thank you. (No I don't farm BTC items, I only find them now and then by chance. BTA is great for people with limited time.)

Zaodon
11-30-2011, 07:55 AM
doesn't it ever start to get embarrassing to have to come back to these issues over and over? Wouldn't it be great to put the effort in the first time? I've said it before, but turbine really really really needs to implement iso. To make the same mistakes more than once (more than dozens of times actually) is just plain lazy.

+10000000000

Seikojin
11-30-2011, 12:46 PM
doesn't it ever start to get embarrassing to have to come back to these issues over and over? Wouldn't it be great to put the effort in the first time? I've said it before, but Turbine really really really needs to implement ISO. To make the same mistakes more than once (more than DOZENS of times actually) is just plain lazy.

Or plain established methods. Turbine as a whole will have a hard time changing standards when the suggestion comes from the forums. LOL Not from the people we interface with. But their managers. And their managers' managers.

Kinerd
11-30-2011, 04:32 PM
As a premium player, the problem here is that Turbine caved to VIP pressure to make the artificer class unlockable by Cannith favor. If you wished to buy the challenge pack and the artificer class, the pack price is not bad. If you aren't interested in artificers or already bought the class, the price is ridiculous.I must say, Turbine (eventually) sticking to their word is not the problem. There are some very serious problems with the favor granted from challenges, yes, but the artificer class being unlockable is not one of them.

I took another 4 glances at the LFM panel over the past 24 hours: 0 challenge lfms out of 86 total lfms. If it's already broke, don't break it more.

Targonis
12-01-2011, 04:59 AM
There has been a fairly standard policy where if ingredients are bound to character, then the resulting crafted item would end up as bound to character. The devs have said that the regular ingredients are being changed to bound to account, so things will be fairly consistent once the changes are made.

Now, are epic tokens bound to account, or bound to character SHOULD be the thing you are going to complain about here if the epic tokens are bound to account.

In Shroud, green steel blanks are not bound until you equip them, or you add a tier(since the power shards are bound to character). The moment you craft with a bound to character ingredient, that SHOULD result in the crafted item being bound to either account or character, depending on the level of binding on the ingredient.

Targonis
12-01-2011, 05:02 AM
I must say, Turbine (eventually) sticking to their word is not the problem. There are some very serious problems with the favor granted from challenges, yes, but the artificer class being unlockable is not one of them.

I took another 4 glances at the LFM panel over the past 24 hours: 0 challenge lfms out of 86 total lfms. If it's already broke, don't break it more.

Considering how many bad PUGs there are out there, running challenges where people are all over the place and not listening makes the challenges less enjoyable. I agree that there is a STRANGE lack of LFMs for challenges, and an even stranger lack of people who have even run any challenges, even for VIPs.

Targonis
12-01-2011, 05:07 AM
As a premium player, the problem here is that Turbine caved to VIP pressure to make the artificer class unlockable by Cannith favor. If you wished to buy the challenge pack and the artificer class, the pack price is not bad. If you aren't interested in artificers or already bought the class, the price is ridiculous.

Through the history of the game, all classes and races have either been free to VIPs or unlockable via favor. The real issue is that you need CANNITH favor to do the unlock, not just favor. Turbine could easily have made it something like "either 3400 total favor OR you need the Cannith favor", allow for unlocking either way so we are not being pushed to run U11 AND U12 content on elite and even epic difficulties just to unlock the class.

Ikuryo
12-02-2011, 02:56 AM
It makes a bit of sense. The stuff to do the turn in were all BTC so you were forced to do all your collecting on one toon, make it on that toon, and then move it to the character you wanted to use it on. Now you can move the items to the one you want to use it and have them make/finish it.

I don't really have an issue with this, although I consider it odd that just the one item is btc at 3rd tier. I forsee a number of people ending up with it on the wrong character and wasting a lot of ing.

redspecter23
12-02-2011, 08:49 AM
It makes a bit of sense. The stuff to do the turn in were all BTC so you were forced to do all your collecting on one toon, make it on that toon, and then move it to the character you wanted to use it on. Now you can move the items to the one you want to use it and have them make/finish it.

I don't really have an issue with this, although I consider it odd that just the one item is btc at 3rd tier. I forsee a number of people ending up with it on the wrong character and wasting a lot of ing.

I agree that it does make sense that a finished item should be bound to character. I don't have an issue with that. My issue comes from the flip-flop decisions from update to update. I like to have some consistency in my game. I want to know that items, abilities, mechanics, etc. will stay somewhat consistent between updates.

Now both nerfs and buffs are a part of the game and will happen from time to time, but taking a flip-flop approach to something that really doesn't matter at all in terms of game balance like changing binding status in this situation shows a lack of vision and leadership on the development level. They released an unfinished update with no idea of how it was supposed to work. They are still tweaking it as if it's in beta. Once it's released to live, changes should be minimal and address bugs, exploits and clearly unbalanced mechanics. This is for the sake of having a consistent game world to play in. This change may have been what the devs originally intended but the positives don't outweigh the negatives. Changing it now makes the devs look sloppy because they just don't know how their own system was intended to work.

Who's to say what might get changed again in U13? The devs may know what their finished product is supposed to look like, but us on the outside looking in only see it as changes and nerfs from update to update and not a progression from unfinished product to a clean, polished system. We just don't know the direction the game is headed in so we can't have the same perspective on changes that the devs do. We don't know what systems on live are still essentially "beta" to the devs that are working on them. This can lead to serious "tin foil hat" situations that do nothing positive for the game at all and just get the forumites in an uproar.