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View Full Version : U12 bugged item tested again - Many are fixed



Shade
11-28-2011, 11:45 PM
Kookie hooked me and cpl other players up with tons of ingrds to make the new challenge stuff, and some upgradable abbot/raver stuff to test those.

Results:

Challenge gear:
Chime: Doesn't hurt you anymore. Works on warforged. Didnt test guard.
Mournlode Chain: Weaken undead seems to work now, verified in pvp vs palemaster.
didnt test stalker ring yet.

New weapons effects:
Slicing winds: 3 tics of ~150 slashing dmg. very low proc, prolly 1.5%.

Gianthold loot upgrades:
Tested madstone boots, madstone shield, both work as described. (kookie gave me seals, cant say if reaver actaully drops em or not yet)

Abbot loot upgrade (or rather un-nerfings imo):
Tested:
Circle of Hatred - works, but does not gain 8 charges, gains regular 5 charges. The incite 30% description says "increases threat 20%" not surprising, not tested if its visual only.
Gloves - works, but does not gain 4 charges, gains 3x.
Breeze - works, items very changed tho.. I think for the better, suck its still DEX only tho.. (with the new tech it should be dex or str) There are some great Str based acrobats out there that would really like this. Dex based ones don't even belong in abbot elite imo, too poor dps to handle his insane hp. So your just luring them in to fail almosts by this weapons design.
Enduring conviction - works, but new version is nerfed, has no banishing.
Unwaving ardency - works, but new version is nerfed, no cursepew, slowburst or fear immunity

So pretty much seems all works now, cept things that should gave xtra charges, do not, and instead gain the un-nerfed prepatch amounts.

Still bugged stuff:
Diving vengence/madstone shield new's - Bashing -10/20%.. They apply the effect as a "buff" to people you shield bash, and do nothing else.

Improved destruction (on new weapon) still bugged. Same as regular destruct, non stacking.

New bugs noticed:
Blinding embers claims to blind without a save, like radiance.. Yet it has a save. Seemed exactly like the new greater sirroco, dc35 ref (which appears to work per description, pvp tests showed its duration at a poor 16s tho)

Alexandryte
11-29-2011, 04:13 AM
Breeze - works, items very changed tho.. I think for the better, suck its still DEX only tho.. (with the new tech it should be dex or str) There are some great Str based acrobats out there that would really like this. Dex based ones don't even belong in abbot elite imo, too poor dps to handle his insane hp. So your just luring them in to fail almosts by this weapons design.


I politely disagree with your assessment of Dex builds in general. Both Str and Dex builds are and should be viable in all content. In addition, that certain items should remain special in what stat they choose for to-hit/dmg. We do not need more ESoS's, nor kopeshes that break the bounds. What we need is reliable variety of enticing weapons.....where things are a choice rather than "if you dont build this way or use X equipment you are gimp".


Not all of us enjoy being relegated to 2 stats of strength and constitution as melee, with just enough Dex to squeak by with full TWF if aiming for two weapons.


If this isnt the case one of 2 things should happen:

1.Find a way for Dex builds to gain a buff that Str builds cant double dip into (meaningful AC, doublestrike, bonuses to sneak attack, passive attack speed bonus all would be nice points to examine for potential) My recommendation would be looking at Weapons Finesse Feat for point of sticking something on.

2. The gains for Str builds need to be taken down a notch or the penalties of ignoring Dex should be upped.



If one of the people that claims to have a devs ear is even saying that DEX builds "don't even belong" and "too poor dps" I think we need to take a harder look at this.

aerendhil
11-29-2011, 04:24 AM
Hey,

Did they implement a way to upgrade the old raid loot from Reaver / Abbot ?

Mojoronomous
11-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Improved Destruction: We also tested this on a throwing hammer (looked lootgen but could have been crafted). I only saw -1% / -1AC every hit, instead of the -2% / -2AC you're supposed to get. This was on my pale master in lich form, the other WF tester in the PvP pit was seeing the same thing, so it doesn't seem to be working any differently than Destruction.

Breeze: Thematically, I'd have liked to see a Vertigo effect that used Dex instead of Strength, but the TK and Sirrocco make it a good trash sweeper in the right hands. Or leaf-blower, if you will ;)

Enduring Conviction: Banishing vs Greater Evil Outsider Bane - A downgrade damage-wise (from the vorpal, the dice and enhancements mostly cancel out). However, Banishing weapons don't work in Shavarath, so this change makes it useful in ToD where we're the outsiders getting Banished. Also, TWF WF & Horc power attacks benefit from the additional to-hit of EOB on the base item, then the upgrade to GEOB.

Shield Bashing: The buff may not be a buff. "You help XXXX with Blade Barrier Ward" used to show up in the combat log, but it was solely a display issue; a property of Blade Barrier being that you can't take damage from one when you're already inside another, and they added a ward to keep track of that... but there was no reason for us to see it.

Chime: Props for the "sonic halo" you get when you equip the chime... Very "Angels of Death Metal!"



Doesn't look like a way to change out the items yet, but they may be releasing the patches in stages.

Shade
11-29-2011, 01:37 PM
If one of the people that claims to have a devs ear is even saying that DEX builds "don't even belong" and "too poor dps" I think we need to take a harder look at this.

Who is making such a claim?

And why would anyone anyways? Your talking about an obviously intended dnd mechanic that already has a purpose, but just doesn't work well in this games highest difficulties due to the massive expanded numbers.

The issue here isn't dex builds. It's that abbot elite has insanely too many hp.. So the only reasonable approach is to go max dps.

Sacrifice dps in the name of extra dex, and thus reflex saves which can help against his spells.. Theres a useful benefit of the dex build.

Just doesn't work in this case because it's making whats already a brokenly long encounter, that much more painfully long.

If you like to take even longer, in whats already too long of a fight, by all means.. Play a dex build. Thats your choice to sacrifice.

The trade off is more defense for less offense. It's always been a functional and obvious ones. Just not one many players care for in difficult content given its already long enough without such sacrifices.

There solution in this case is easy and one i've suggested already a cpl times:
Drop abbots insane 300k hp back down to the more reasonable 130k lvl.
Increase the penaltis for dying.

Thus the extra reflex to help you survive can become worth it, as the encounter is shorter, but the risks are greater.

That and allow dex and str on the breeze so it's not such a niche weapon. Powerful, hard to get weapons should cater to a wider variety of players, and the fact is dex acrobat sthat play abbot elite are EXTREME minoirty.

Thrudh
11-29-2011, 01:46 PM
If one of the people that claims to have a devs ear is even saying that DEX builds "don't even belong" and "too poor dps" I think we need to take a harder look at this.

This is my main problem with Shade. He does good work testing, I'll give him kudos for that, but I definitely don't want developers thinking he speaks for the masses.

Shade is an extreme powergamer with very limited viewpoints on certain classes and builds. The developers should be VERY careful when using his feedback on design changes.

Edit: I should be clear that Shade has made some very good suggestions in the past. But not ALL his suggestions are good.

Alexandryte
11-29-2011, 02:27 PM
Who is making such a claim?

And why would anyone anyways? Your talking about an obviously intended dnd mechanic that already has a purpose, but just doesn't work well in this games highest difficulties due to the massive expanded numbers.

The issue here isn't dex builds. It's that abbot elite has insanely too many hp.. So the only reasonable approach is to go max dps.

Sacrifice dps in the name of extra dex, and thus reflex saves which can help against his spells.. Theres a useful benefit of the dex build.

Just doesn't work in this case because it's making whats already a brokenly long encounter, that much more painfully long.

If you like to take even longer, in whats already too long of a fight, by all means.. Play a dex build. Thats your choice to sacrifice.

The trade off is more defense for less offense. It's always been a functional and obvious ones. Just not one many players care for in difficult content given its already long enough without such sacrifices.

There solution in this case is easy and one i've suggested already a cpl times:
Drop abbots insane 300k hp back down to the more reasonable 130k lvl.
Increase the penaltis for dying.

Thus the extra reflex to help you survive can become worth it, as the encounter is shorter, but the risks are greater.

That and allow dex and str on the breeze so it's not such a niche weapon. Powerful, hard to get weapons should cater to a wider variety of players, and the fact is dex acrobat sthat play abbot elite are EXTREME minoirty.

When that defense is moot, what is one left with? Dex builds dont typically survive longer than Str builds when push comes to shove.

As you've just stated Dex builds are "not one many players care for in difficult content given its already long enough without such sacrifices"

The reason for his health increase was he was dying so fast he barely had time to use his special powers. If they lowered his health down where he still gets a decent amount of inferno's off you would most likely still be inclined to use only "max dps" over Dex. From what you've said....the only time you would take a Dex is when you are willing to incur a crutch.

This Is A Problem!

Also....when the tech allows dex to wield other weapons effectively then I would concede usage of Breeze on a Strength build. Until then, it is one of the few "perks" that Dex builds get that still dont get them in raids.

Diyon
11-29-2011, 02:41 PM
In addition, that certain items should remain special in what stat they choose for to-hit/dmg.
....

2. The gains for Str builds need to be taken down a notch or the penalties of ignoring Dex should be upped.


First part there, I disagree with strongly in this case is because staff acrobats don't have a lot going for them as it is. They have a small pool of decent weapons and making so that a niche build (staff acrobats in general) can't use some of the niche build weapons well just hurts.

In regards to acrobats, I don't think your second option on fixing dex builds is a good idea. STR based staff acrobats already struggle to keep up, they don't need to be brought down.


The reason for his health increase was he was dying so fast he barely had time to use his special powers. If they lowered his health down where he still gets a decent amount of inferno's off you would most likely still be inclined to use only "max dps" over Dex. From what you've said....the only time you would take a Dex is when you are willing to incur a crutch.

This Is A Problem!

Also....when the tech allows dex to wield other weapons effectively then I would concede usage of Breeze on a Strength build. Until then, it is one of the few "perks" that Dex builds get that still dont get them in raids.

I can completely agree with this. Especially since playing a staff build in the first place you are already having to be "willing to incur a crutch."



EDIT: Since I didn't directly state it, I agree that Breeze needs to be str or dex. I would love a named staff to use sometimes other than epic souleater and rahl's might (sometimes dreamspitter).

Really staff acrobats, like monks, need more named weapon options due to the fact that they are pretty much locked into a weapon type. Most other melees, say like a barbarian can go ahead and pick up that neat greataxe or great sword or falchion etc, and still get all of their builds bonuses.

Alexandryte
11-29-2011, 03:00 PM
First part there, I disagree with strongly in this case is because staff acrobats don't have a lot going for them as it is. They have a small pool of decent weapons and making so that a niche build (staff acrobats in general) can't use some of the niche build weapons well just hurts.

In regards to acrobats, I don't think your second option on fixing dex builds is a good idea. STR based staff acrobats already struggle to keep up, they don't need to be brought down.



I can completely agree with this. Especially since playing a staff build in the first place you are already having to be "willing to incur a crutch."



EDIT: Since I didn't directly state it, I agree that Breeze needs to be str or dex. I would love a named staff to use sometimes other than epic souleater and rahl's might (sometimes dreamspitter).

Really staff acrobats, like monks, need more named weapon options due to the fact that they are pretty much locked into a weapon type. Most other melees, say like a barbarian can go ahead and pick up that neat greataxe or great sword or falchion etc, and still get all of their builds bonuses.

Heh the first 2 you pointed out are points by contrapositive...or is it some other logical device....I can never keep them all straight in my head.

I would much rather prefer a passive granted feat that Acrobats (and monks) would get that let them use either despite what the default might be on the staff, rather than opening it up to all Strength builds. I dont have anything against Str builds in general, but I do dislike the idea of Dex being put on the bench and then the few nifty toys that Dex has being raffled off to Str builds further perpetuating the root of the issue.

None the less, the disparity between Str and Dex builds actual tangible pros and cons needs to be addressed.

Munkenmo
11-29-2011, 03:11 PM
None the less, the disparity between Str and Dex builds actual tangible pros and cons needs to be addressed.

probably, but maybe in a thread that's not about items being bugged?

Seager52
11-29-2011, 03:21 PM
This is my main problem with Shade. He does good work testing, I'll give him kudos for that, but I definitely don't want developers thinking he speaks for the masses.

Shade is an extreme powergamer with very limited viewpoints on certain classes and builds. The developers should be VERY careful when using his feedback on design changes.

Edit: I should be clear that Shade has made some very good suggestions in the past. But not ALL his suggestions are good.

Well said and respectful. I agree that Shade has some good ideas but others are not so much. The main problem is that the majority of quests/raids are highest DPS and lowest defence=win.

With the new changes we have already started moving away from this with the defenders and earth stance. This shows some great design by the devs. In this messed up AC world the damage midigation is awesome.

Now with that being said I disagree that all classes should be balanced totally. I dont want to do the same damage at the same rate as everyone else just my weapon looks different.

The problem is that no matter what the devs do, if you make a certain weapon or certain class a slight bit better there will be those that will same XXXX class/weapon only, link or denied.

This is an unfortunate way of the beast.

The best thing is make a variety of quests/raid that are designed to the abilities of all classes. The down side is you will get, "Hey this isnt quest XXXX so your class isnt needed"

MrkGrismer
11-29-2011, 03:37 PM
As an aside comment I always disliked the idea of just adding hit points to make a monster last longer in an encounter. Instead I preferred to add something to the encounter to make it more difficult but still allow the group to defeat the encounter if they used tactics.

For instance; if the group does a LOT of damage in a short time; add something that can heal the monsters when they get to a certain point. BUT it can only do so a certain number of times and/or it can be deactivated somehow. Such as healing monsters that can be killed to stop them from healing, special magical objects that can have dispell or disjunction cast on them to be stopped, shapeshifting into a beholder to cover the area in anti-magic to stop the healing (but then fighting with masterwork stuff), etc. Obviously some of that can't happen in ddo because there are some differences (like with disjunction, dispell and anti-magic). But I would rather have healer's buffing a boss that are killable than the boss having huge amounts of extra hit points just to make him last longer.

But that's just me.

Auran82
11-29-2011, 04:25 PM
Pretty much all the acrobat staves should be dex/str (highest applies) to at least to hit.

Either that, or it should be part of the PRE itself.

Aeolwind
11-29-2011, 05:03 PM
Pretty much all the acrobat staves should be dex/str (highest applies) to at least to hit.

Either that, or it should be part of the PRE itself.

I'm about to TR out of an acrobat, my dex was virtually tanked & it made no sense. Ignore the 'MyDDO' version that is up, I LR'd this AM while waiting on the furnace guy to get the monk PLF instead of rogue. The Acrobat PrE should allow the higher of Strength or Dex to be your hit/dam. Showtime could work like Power Surge from Kensei offering an 8 bonus to dex vs 4, remove the haste boost & just let the rogue hit haste boost instead.

esheep
11-30-2011, 08:52 AM
Breeze - works, items very changed tho.. I think for the better, suck its still DEX only tho.. (with the new tech it should be dex or str) There are some great Str based acrobats out there that would really like this. Dex based ones don't even belong in abbot elite imo, too poor dps to handle his insane hp. So your just luring them in to fail almosts by this weapons design.


I disagree, don't make it STR or DEX, leave it DEX... there's a reason it's called "Thief-Acrobat" and not "Thief-Bodybuilder" hopefully with TA3 the devs make it incredibly advantageous to go the DEX route.

Jiipster
11-30-2011, 09:06 AM
I disagree, don't make it STR or DEX, leave it DEX... there's a reason it's called "Thief-Acrobat" and not "Thief-Bodybuilder" hopefully with TA3 the devs make it incredibly advantageous to go the DEX route.

I hope not, because then you'd have to wait for 18 levels to have a useful character.

Ziindarax
11-30-2011, 09:14 AM
I got Kookie to give me the Litany of the Dead, and as far as I can tell, it appears to be working; at the very least, I did not get any negative level penalties from the Taint of Evil property that was removed.

MakeItADouble
11-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Enduring conviction - works, but new version is nerfed, has no banishing.

How disappointing. Guess I'll won't be spending my Seals on this one. Glad you posted it. I'll keep them for elemental beaters instead.

TDarkchylde
12-03-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm just glad I'm not wasting my time with Abbot anymore.

Thanks for the research.

oweieie
12-03-2011, 10:40 PM
The difference between a DEX build and a STR build rogue, 12-16 starting, 12-18 ending vs. 18-20 starting and 24-27 ending, so about 9-15 STR due mostly to race, which translates into 4-8 damage per hit main, 2-4 off hand which is like... who cares, particularly for a rogue.

This will be lower the raid DPS by a small fraction of 1%. For a 10 minute fight you're adding 1-2 seconds of time to kill the abbot. DEX rogues are hardly "set up for failure".

Alexandryte
12-03-2011, 10:50 PM
The difference between a DEX build and a STR build rogue, 12-16 starting, 12-18 ending vs. 18-20 starting and 24-27 ending, so about 9-15 STR due mostly to race, which translates into 4-8 damage per hit main, 2-4 off hand which is like... who cares, particularly for a rogue.

This will be lower the raid DPS by a small fraction of 1%. For a 10 minute fight you're adding 1-2 seconds of time to kill the abbot. DEX rogues are hardly "set up for failure".

10 base damage is quite a bit when its the basis for how hard you can crit with weapons (remember that the crit profile for weapons is quite different) not to mention that if you are a dex build you will be using light weapons which inherently do less dps.

It adds up quite a bit more than 1% for melee.

Since saves and AC aren't worth a damn at the moment (unless you totally gimp dps to affect the latter)....dex builds are really hurting.

oweieie
12-04-2011, 01:22 AM
It adds up quite a bit more than 1% for melee.

If the rogue's DPS is 10% of the raid's and the rogue's DPS is lowered by 10% (unrealistically high) by having 9-15 less strength, this means the raid loses 1% DPS. If the Abbot takes 10 minutes to kill, it will now take 10:06 to kill.

While dex builds aren't the way to go, it's not exactly going to gimp your raid either.

Antheal
12-04-2011, 02:57 AM
But when it's just Shade and 11 casters, who cares about Dex build Rogues?

Munkenmo
12-04-2011, 03:05 AM
The difference between a DEX build and a STR build rogue, 12-16 starting, 12-18 ending vs. 18-20 starting and 24-27 ending, so about 9-15 STR due mostly to race, which translates into 4-8 damage per hit main, 2-4 off hand which is like... who cares, particularly for a rogue.

This will be lower the raid DPS by a small fraction of 1%. For a 10 minute fight you're adding 1-2 seconds of time to kill the abbot. DEX rogues are hardly "set up for failure".

i don't know what kind of str based rogue only has 24-27 str...

mine (http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/acegnorr/) sits on 34 before buffs, with no +7 str item, +4 tome, litany, or 3peice abishai set.

The difference is a lot more than 1% of a total raids dps output. You falsely arguing how good dex based rogues are isn't helping their cause.

Shade
12-04-2011, 05:23 AM
But when it's just Shade and 11 casters, who cares about Dex build Rogues?

The ones I declined care a bit they arent on the run.

Shade
12-04-2011, 05:27 AM
If the rogue's DPS is 10% of the raid's and the rogue's DPS is lowered by 10% (unrealistically high) by having 9-15 less strength, this means the raid loses 1% DPS. If the Abbot takes 10 minutes to kill, it will now take 10:06 to kill.

While dex builds aren't the way to go, it's not exactly going to gimp your raid either.

DPS Challenge prooves vs 100% fort, a very well built monk loses a massive 30% DPS going from str to wis build. That "only" 9-15 makes a MASSIVE difference in the actual game. That combined with the fact finesse rogues NEVER wear the same kind of dps gear as str rogues, as they just dont care as much about dps obviously by playing a dex build, means they're actual +dmg modifier is always a ton lower then just the obvious str difference.

Also raid dps just doesn't work that way. In the huge majority of raids, 90% of of bosses health is taken out by the top 4-5 DPS. The rest focus on other tasks, or just completely pike in the case of most finesse rogues.

Havok.cry
12-04-2011, 05:40 AM
DPS Challenge prooves vs 100% fort, a very well built monk loses a massive 30% DPS going from str to wis build. That "only" 9-15 makes a MASSIVE difference in the actual game. That combined with the fact finesse rogues NEVER wear the same kind of dps gear as str rogues, as they just dont care as much about dps obviously by playing a dex build, means they're actual +dmg modifier is always a ton lower then just the obvious str difference.

Also raid dps just doesn't work that way. In the huge majority of raids, 90% of of bosses health is taken out by the top 4-5 DPS. The rest focus on other tasks, or just completely pike in the case of most finesse rogues.

At least if they splash monk they can get build up the AC to pike properly.

sweez
12-04-2011, 07:00 AM
which translates into 4-8 damage per hit main, 2-4 off hand which is like... who cares, particularly for a rogue.

Yep, who cares about 4-8 dmg, I mean, not like people grind months and months for +2 from shintao/fb set or +4 from eclaw or +1 from a higher tier tome :rolleyes:

NexEverto
12-08-2011, 05:19 PM
Shade, could you please test Improved/Destruction for me on the Live Server and confirm if its not WAI? (You and I both know that Lama Land and Live Land can be two totally different kettles of fish, despite what we 'Preview') Screen Shots would be loved, but I'm likely to take your word on it. When you've got some results I'll add them to my Update 12 Broken 'Things' Master List (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=353587).

Thanks.

Shade
12-08-2011, 06:19 PM
Shade, could you please test Improved/Destruction for me on the Live Server and confirm if its not WAI? (You and I both know that Lama Land and Live Land can be two totally different kettles of fish, despite what we 'Preview') Screen Shots would be loved, but I'm likely to take your word on it. When you've got some results I'll add them to my Update 12 Broken 'Things' Master List (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=353587).

Thanks.

confirmed.. It's exactly how it's been for months now, since U11.1.

Works identically to regular destruction, -1 ac -1% fort, non stacking.

You can add the blinding embers and shield bashing too, also confirmed bugged live.

Hell if you want to add old stuff, can look at our wiki category of em:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Game_bugs
60 pages and growing fast.

DDO is the buggiest game i've ever played.

NexEverto
12-08-2011, 07:53 PM
Thanks for the testing, I'll add it and the other two when I'm not posting from an iPhone. As for the 60 pages worth... Whilst I do read that list occasionally, I'm going to avoid reporting it as I'll likely end up needing psychiatric help after I'm done. :D

black_pearl2001
12-13-2011, 06:46 PM
Ring of Lies from Reaver's Fate now has Deception but bluff enhancement bonus doesn't stack with competance bonus.

arroyo
12-14-2011, 07:18 AM
Ring of Lies from Reaver's Fate now has Deception but bluff enhancement bonus doesn't stack with competance bonus.

This also happens with Impr Deception, despite both mod description state enhancement bonus.