PDA

View Full Version : A Step to Bringing Casters and Melees Closer Together



waterboytkd
11-17-2011, 05:01 PM
One more for today. :P

There's an obvious gulf between casters and melees in this game. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but the primary role of melees (dps) is done as well as, if not better, by casters. It's the DoTs. They allow casters to have a very high sustained dps, one that can exceed even the best melee's dps under the right and not-so-uncommon conditions.

So the following is a way to sort of bring caster dps down while making melees more valuable to parties, especially raid parties. First, make fortification resist all kinds of criticals, not just those from weapons. This means spell crits can be negated on a raid boss with fortification. Secord, give the DoTs a Fort save for half. I know this has been suggested before, and there is some strong resistance to it, but consider this: due to recent increases in boss fortification AND a recent buff to Imp Sunder, many melees are now taking that feat.

Both of the suggested changes would mean that casters would do much better against raid bosses dps-wise if there were melees in the group. And not just one melee either. The more melees with Imp Sunder, the faster that -3 Fort save from it stacks up to the 5 times, meaning the boss won't save very often against the DoTs (returning casters to a high dps spot). Yes, casters could still be top dps, but this would encourage more diverse party makeups than just trying to load a group up with arcanes and divines.

It would also address another issue: fvs and sorcs neglecting their DCs. Melee fvs wouldn't be able to get as much out of divine punishment (which really does allow even a melee fvs to be higher dps than most melee classes), and it would be much harder for a sorc to just put a token amount into cha and boost con through the roof. Also, a save for the DoTs means that Heighten could affect it, which would both be beneficial to the caster, but also make the DoT a less sustainable effect. I mean, the hp buff to raid bosses in U11 was to make it harder for a group of casters to just DoT them to death, right? It was meant to make melees more important. But this would do it, too, without putting a ton of added strain on healers, and would encourage more cross-class teamwork.

Kmnh
11-17-2011, 05:24 PM
Caster DPS is fine. The problem with DoTs is not the damage they do, it's the fact that they let you face the boss for 1 second to land your spell and then concentrate on kiting or blocking for the next 10-12 seconds. Casters can seriously damage a boss without needing to focus. It breaks one of the most important resources in the game.

Raise nuke damage or reduce their cooldown/animation times, and get rid of the dots. A caster that is spending sp like crazy and consistently focusing on damaging the boss should do more damage than a melee. No class should be able to drop a divine punishment and run away.

scoobmx
11-17-2011, 05:32 PM
It's fine as is. Casters have a different role from melees. They are good at particular boss encounters and there is nothing wrong with that.

varusso
11-17-2011, 05:45 PM
I always figured the best way to bring casters and melees closer to each other was to have them stand side by side. Or have casters toss rage/haste; that always brings melees closer.

No to nerfing casters. Period.

~Cavalier9999
11-17-2011, 05:53 PM
/not signed

Way too heavy handed

taurean430
11-17-2011, 06:00 PM
This suggestion does not appear to be one designed to promote group synergy. It looks more to me like a veiled attempt to nerf non melee classes into subservience.

Therefore /not signed.

waterboytkd
11-17-2011, 06:15 PM
Caster DPS is fine. The problem with DoTs is not the damage they do, it's the fact that they let you face the boss for 1 second to land your spell and then concentrate on kiting or blocking for the next 10-12 seconds. Casters can seriously damage a boss without needing to focus. It breaks one of the most important resources in the game.

Raise nuke damage or reduce their cooldown/animation times, and get rid of the dots. A caster that is spending sp like crazy and consistently focusing on damaging the boss should do more damage than a melee. No class should be able to drop a divine punishment and run away.

Well, first: getting rid of the DoTs seems like a mistake. I mean, before DoTs, how many lfms were only accepting 1 arcane caster? Now, competent raid leaders take arcanes to fill dps spots as well as melees. It means there can be more than 1 arcane in a group, and that's good.

Second: my suggestion actually does what you want. It forces the caster to stop running and work with a team. DoT kiting takes a serious hit under my suggestion because of the Fort save, which is consistently the highest save bosses have. If the caster doesn't try to kite, but lets the melees get in on the action, the melees will bring the boss's Fort save down, and the DoTs get stronger.


It's fine as is. Casters have a different role from melees. They are good at particular boss encounters and there is nothing wrong with that.

Hmm. The way I see it (the guild I'm apart of is mostly people playing casters since U9), casters don't have different roles from melees. They have additional roles from melees. Melees are dps (with a few also doing tank duty, which is maybe the one role casters don't take well), while casters are dps and buffs (and heals, for divine casters). I'm serious about this. Caster slots in a party are mostly dps slots these days, with the benefit that they can throw some buffs out to the melees, or heal them.

As for particular boss encounters, I can only think of 2 encounters where you want melees over casters (not counting an obligatory tank): epic Bloodplate in eChrono, and epic Velah. Bloodplate, it's the sheer number of orange named mobs that come down (and 2 of em are must kills) that makes you want melees to efficiently deal with trash. Velah, it's a long fight, so you want the most efficient dps you can get. Also, don't know how the new eggs would work without melees. BUT, you don't need melees for either of these, either. I've done them both with all fvs/sorc parties. All other encounters? I've found them much easier with all caster, or caster loaded, parties than with melee loaded parties.

So I have to disagree that "It's fine as is." Melees are woefully underpowered compared to casters right now. BUT, I also don't think the imbalance should be addressed with big nerfs to casters. Mostly, I'd like to see melees get boosts to help them in their self-sufficiency department. And I'd like to see mechanics where a party that's balanced with melees and casters does more dps than a party loaded with one or the other. Hence my slight nerf to the DoTs that (hopefully) most melees could largely mitigate.


/not signed

Way too heavy handed

Really? A save for the DoTs is "Way too heavy handed"? Have you seen other caster nerfs people have suggested? How about the suggestion above to do away with DoTs entirely? I actually think mine is a well-balanced adjustment, so I have to ask: what would you consider a not-heavy handed adjustment to the DoTs?

waterboytkd
11-17-2011, 06:16 PM
This suggestion does not appear to be one designed to promote group synergy. It looks more to me like a veiled attempt to nerf non melee classes into subservience.

Therefore /not signed.

Could you please elaborate?

Galeria
11-17-2011, 06:41 PM
I do not understand all the caster jealousy. I really don't.

wax_on_wax_off
11-17-2011, 07:14 PM
I like the idea that the issue with the DoTS isn't so much their damage but the fact that it only takes 1 second out of 15 to apply such amazing DPS.

How about increase the casting animation time to like 5 seconds or 4 seconds quickened (but uninterruptible)? That would solve all the problems straight up and require significantly more teamwork (as you don't want to be reapplying the DoT when people need healing. This would also cut down on the DPS that melee casters do bringing them back in line.

Vanquishedfo
11-17-2011, 07:14 PM
First OP please list every toon and your main server so casters there can blacklist you from ever getting another buff or heal again;)

Second /NO

third you seem to be confusing 3e and 4e as so many do these days. In 3E balance does not exist in the way most wowtards think of it as. In this version of D&D used as the basis for DDO the balance exist in a different fshion.

Early on warriors are the easy to play choice. Especially if you group alot and always put it on divines and arcnaes to buff and heal you so you cn go swing your big stick and call yourself the hero at the end and demand only warriors get to roll on the cool named weapons and armor.

Casters especially arcanes early on are hard to play, hard to keep alive, and the pay off for that is around lvl 10+ thier power really starts to take off while the power climb for warrior types starts to slow down.

By lvl 20 there really shouldnt ever be much use for a guy with a pointy piece of metal over a guy who can fly and rain down death from above which is exactly what a wizard will do to any warrior in PnP who talks the kind of tripe so many do here in DDO.

A short story. In a PnP campaign I was running for a long time one of the characters had retired thier fighter who now ran a keep as its lord in service to the kind of that country. The player then began to play the son of that character to stay with the group and have a certain amount of back story.

one day that upstart young warrior a paladin started to talk smack to the elven wizard in the group who practiced necromancy. He was in no way evil and infact had great respect for the dead and viewed his magic as blessing thier remains with a vigor that would help the spirit speed forth to the next plane of existance. Needless to say the wizard tried to take it in stride. tried to explain to the human paladin that his own gods views where not all gods views etc.

Eventually the elf had had enough and went and flew off, then slipped me a note he was flying for the fortress home of the paladins family. There he set up a invisble air base then proceeded to bombard the keep until all where dead, then animated the dead lord and took him back to show the paladin why you keep your mouth shut to wizards lest you annoy them.

For those who wonder, in my campaigns its never evil for elves to kill any non elves EVER and is in fact a sign of good elven RP to me expressing thier attitude that aside from elves everything else is about as meaningful as a fly and no more a murder to kill.

Also elves get double xp for scalping dwarves of thier beards but leaving them alive.

Kmnh
11-17-2011, 07:15 PM
Well, first: getting rid of the DoTs seems like a mistake. I mean, before DoTs, how many lfms were only accepting 1 arcane caster? Now, competent raid leaders take arcanes to fill dps spots as well as melees. It means there can be more than 1 arcane in a group, and that's good.

Second: my suggestion actually does what you want. It forces the caster to stop running and work with a team. DoT kiting takes a serious hit under my suggestion because of the Fort save, which is consistently the highest save bosses have. If the caster doesn't try to kite, but lets the melees get in on the action, the melees will bring the boss's Fort save down, and the DoTs get stronger.

You don't form an all caster party because they do more DPS. You do it because they are more survivable. Adding a save to the dots means that people will take a bit longer on their all-caster runs, but they will do it anyway, because it a lot less of a hassle than keeping non-self-healing melees alive.

That's why raising nuke damage or making the animations faster , and removing the dots, is a better idea. You won't shieldblock and rely on constant dot damage to tank a boss. You won't drop 2 dots on a boss and run away. You can do insane damage, but only if you are facing the boss and cycling through your spells, open to retaliation.

wax_on_wax_off
11-17-2011, 07:20 PM
First OP please list every toon and your main server so casters there can blacklist you from ever getting another buff or heal again;)

Second /NO

third you seem to be confusing 3e and 4e as so many do these days. In 3E balance does not exist in the way most wowtards think of it as. In this version of D&D used as the basis for DDO the balance exist in a different fshion.

Early on warriors are the easy to play choice. Especially if you group alot and always put it on divines and arcnaes to buff and heal you so you cn go swing your big stick and call yourself the hero at the end and demand only warriors get to roll on the cool named weapons and armor.

Casters especially arcanes early on are hard to play, hard to keep alive, and the pay off for that is around lvl 10+ thier power really starts to take off while the power climb for warrior types starts to slow down.

By lvl 20 there really shouldnt ever be much use for a guy with a pointy piece of metal over a guy who can fly and rain down death from above which is exactly what a wizard will do to any warrior in PnP who talks the kind of tripe so many do here in DDO.

A short story. In a PnP campaign I was running for a long time one of the characters had retired thier fighter who now ran a keep as its lord in service to the kind of that country. The player then began to play the son of that character to stay with the group and have a certain amount of back story.

one day that upstart young warrior a paladin started to talk smack to the elven wizard in the group who practiced necromancy. He was in no way evil and infact had great respect for the dead and viewed his magic as blessing thier remains with a vigor that would help the spirit speed forth to the next plane of existance. Needless to say the wizard tried to take it in stride. tried to explain to the human paladin that his own gods views where not all gods views etc.

Eventually the elf had had enough and went and flew off, then slipped me a note he was flying for the fortress home of the paladins family. There he set up a invisble air base then proceeded to bombard the keep until all where dead, then animated the dead lord and took him back to show the paladin why you keep your mouth shut to wizards lest you annoy them.

For those who wonder, in my campaigns its never evil for elves to kill any non elves EVER and is in fact a sign of good elven RP to me expressing thier attitude that aside from elves everything else is about as meaningful as a fly and no more a murder to kill.

Also elves get double xp for scalping dwarves of thier beards but leaving them alive.

This post is completely lacking in relevance to this thread. Please ignore.

wax_on_wax_off
11-17-2011, 07:29 PM
You don't form an all caster party because they do more DPS. You do it because they are more survivable. Adding a save to the dots means that people will take a bit longer on their all-caster runs, but they will do it anyway, because it a lot less of a hassle than keeping non-self-healing melees alive.

That's why raising nuke damage or making the animations faster , and removing the dots, is a better idea. You won't shieldblock and rely on constant dot damage to tank a boss. You won't drop 2 dots on a boss and run away. You can do insane damage, but only if you are facing the boss and cycling through your spells, open to retaliation.

Which DoTS would you remove from the game? Just EES, NBC and DP? What about melfs acid arrow, burning blood and black dragon bolt?

I think your argument to straight up remove the first 3 is pretty compelling. It still maintains the option for the DoTS and run style of play (with acid spells) but removes the severe OPness that is currently unbalancing the game.

Perhaps a compromise would be to allow casters to go into a stance which drastically reduces the cost of spell casting (maybe -50%) but reduces their fortification by 100% and gives them a 10% movement penalty. You can only enter it once every 5 minutes or so but it would make melees (who can hold aggro) very valuable.

Before you rage on me be aware that lately I'm only playing casters (I'm playing a sorcerer and a wizard atm).

Synthetic
11-17-2011, 10:34 PM
I like the idea that the issue with the DoTS isn't so much their damage but the fact that it only takes 1 second out of 15 to apply such amazing DPS.

How about increase the casting animation time to like 5 seconds or 4 seconds quickened (but uninterruptible)? That would solve all the problems straight up and require significantly more teamwork (as you don't want to be reapplying the DoT when people need healing. This would also cut down on the DPS that melee casters do bringing them back in line.

I don't like this idea because my cleric is already in a 3 second casting animation for mass heal. I like my dot's because I can also contribute to dps with them if I pay attention.

I like the OPs idea because it standardizes fortification though I'm not sure about adding both fortification blocking spell crits and dots having a fort save is not over kill. Once you apply fortification to spell damage it will change spell dps significantly even without the fort save and improved sunder would still be highly valued for it's fortification reducing ability.

waterboytkd
11-17-2011, 11:32 PM
First OP please list every toon and your main server so casters there can blacklist you from ever getting another buff or heal again;)

Considering that my main currently is a FvS...I won't be too upset by it. Seriously. Why does everyone think if you suggest a power level nerf to something that you don't play it and are just envious? Not everyone is that childish.


Second /NO

third you seem to be confusing 3e and 4e as so many do these days. In 3E balance does not exist in the way most wowtards think of it as. In this version of D&D used as the basis for DDO the balance exist in a different fshion.

Early on warriors are the easy to play choice. Especially if you group alot and always put it on divines and arcnaes to buff and heal you so you cn go swing your big stick and call yourself the hero at the end and demand only warriors get to roll on the cool named weapons and armor.

Casters especially arcanes early on are hard to play, hard to keep alive, and the pay off for that is around lvl 10+ thier power really starts to take off while the power climb for warrior types starts to slow down.

By lvl 20 there really shouldnt ever be much use for a guy with a pointy piece of metal over a guy who can fly and rain down death from above which is exactly what a wizard will do to any warrior in PnP who talks the kind of tripe so many do here in DDO.

That form of balance is a joke. It's not balance. PnP is unbalanced in the early game, and it's unbalanced at the end game. Turns out, two wrongs don't make a right. And, considering that this is a game where role-playing is next-to-nothing, everything comes down to combat. So why would anyone play anything but the strongest? The only reason people are on melees anymore these days is because either a) they're willing to take the power level hit and roll a melee because they enjoy it or b) they have no idea how good casters are/don't know how to play them.

And in this game, casters played right pretty much dominate all content immediately. This isn't PnP. There is no "casters suck then become gods" progression. Casters are gods, especially when running elite content, over melees by level 3 or 4. By level 7 or 8, melees literally become a buff to just increase a caster's persistent AoE's damage output.

Gurei
11-18-2011, 12:38 AM
I quote: "They took our jobs!" - South Park

Anyways, your suggestion makes melees essential for success in general missions, while making casters derp all over the place in end game content.

Half the point of using DoTs are for NO SAVE DAMAGE. The other half? Oh yeah, SPELL POINT CONSERVATION. Both of these elements are needed for casters to remain useful throughout boss fights.

Besides, the fact that synergy is highest when playing with all the same class-type makes perfect SENSE. Why the hell would sundering one's ARMOR make them more vulnerable to magical spells that affect the FLESH?

May I remind you that the most desirable type of caster in epics isn't a nuker, but actually CC, a subtype specialized in making melee more effective?

Here's the party setup that is ideal for 95% of the content, if not more:
1-2 healers
1 rogue
1-2 melee
1-2 casters
1 bard

If you're still complaining, well I tried. Please respond, I look forward to reading it.

wax_on_wax_off
11-18-2011, 12:48 AM
I quote: "They took our jobs!" - South Park

Anyways, your suggestion makes melees essential for success in general missions, while making casters derp all over the place in end game content.

Half the point of using DoTs are for NO SAVE DAMAGE. The other half? Oh yeah, SPELL POINT CONSERVATION. Both of these elements are needed for casters to remain useful throughout boss fights.

Besides, the fact that synergy is highest when playing with all the same class-type makes perfect SENSE. Why the hell would sundering one's ARMOR make them more vulnerable to magical spells that affect the FLESH?

May I remind you that the most desirable type of caster in epics isn't a nuker, but actually CC, a subtype specialized in making melee more effective?

Here's the party setup that is ideal for 95% of the content, if not more:
1-2 healers
1 rogue
1-2 melee
1-2 casters
1 bard

If you're still complaining, well I tried. Please respond, I look forward to reading it.

That is like SO yesterday.

Instant kills all the way now, everything else is just a filler until more instant kills can be used. The only exceptions to this are undergeared/badly built characters.

Casters dominate in epic content and with the DoTS they dominate in raid situations as well.

Spell fortification is a fine idea, so is fort saves for half, so are numerous other ideas. Something does have to happen to nerf the spellcasting stat dumped con based shield mastery builds though.

Such755
11-18-2011, 01:05 AM
For the love of god stop complaining of the lack of balance. There should be no balance, there, I said it.
On epic quests, and high level raids melee's roll is more important than caster (LoB, Master Artificer, Evon6, etc).
When casters run out of juice they become cannon fodders and nothing more. Melee can NEVER run out of juice (Yeah, they can run out of clickies and action boosts, but does that really make them useless? I didn't think so.)
So yeah, while leveling from 1 to about 18-19, a caster will tear the dungeon apart, but from that point forward? No way.
You can say that in epics, and high end content, cacsters are super important for Crowd Control, which is true, but if there is only crowd control and no melee to beat the mobs down, it's all useless. Melee are as important as casters in those quests (You can make some exceptions, where a shroud is done by casters only, for instance.)

Besides, if you think you're being greifed by casters, then stop playing a melee.
I play both, by the way, and I enjoy them both almost equally (My melee is a bit gimped at this point).

Gurei
11-18-2011, 01:41 AM
That is like SO yesterday.

Instant kills all the way now, everything else is just a filler until more instant kills can be used. The only exceptions to this are undergeared/badly built characters.

Casters dominate in epic content and with the DoTS they dominate in raid situations as well.

Spell fortification is a fine idea, so is fort saves for half, so are numerous other ideas. Something does have to happen to nerf the spellcasting stat dumped con based shield mastery builds though.

You won't make a group fill out quicker than being a CC (secondary necro would help ;)) doing ANY epic quest, i guarentee you... Is it just me or is there a lack of mention for NUKERS(higher damage, lower DC's)? Only necros and CC WIZARDS have been mentioned in your case...

Also, nukers do awesome dps against BOSSES, which happen to come up more often that not in raids, because it's supposed to be difficult.

The new DoTs are supposed to bring Savants up to par with your precious PM's, which have been ignored in this debate (and pm's, like CC-ers, also specialize in trash which don't require boss-tailored dots like EES or NBC).

We CAN agree on arcane using a shield (exception of cannith crafting purposes, you get what you get) is an over-flowing crock of s***. But again, you're barking up the wrong tree. Sorcs=barely any feats=no shields
wiz=more feats than sorcs=taking advantage of WIZARD int running around with mastery

Summary:
sorc=lower dc's=use no-save damage spells
would hurt immensely from a fort save on their low dc but no save spells

wiz=high dc's=cc or instakill spells
oh, what's that? instakills already HAVE a fort save? guess they dodged THAT bullet

At least on Cannith server, there's a delicate balance of all the classes being played. Please, PLEASE see how all this would do is make sorcs derpy as s*** imbalancing the game.

Such755: THANK YOU, im totally going to bed now, and plz note the person mentioning the importance of CC-ers (which i actually dont have) and whose side they've been on haha. +1 rep to you sir once i can give it again :).

Good Night/Day

waterboytkd
11-18-2011, 01:46 AM
For the love of god stop complaining of the lack of balance. There should be no balance, there, I said it.
On epic quests, and high level raids melee's roll is more important than caster (LoB, Master Artificer, Evon6, etc).
When casters run out of juice they become cannon fodders and nothing more. Melee can NEVER run out of juice (Yeah, they can run out of clickies and action boosts, but does that really make them useless? I didn't think so.)
So yeah, while leveling from 1 to about 18-19, a caster will tear the dungeon apart, but from that point forward? No way.
You can say that in epics, and high end content, cacsters are super important for Crowd Control, which is true, but if there is only crowd control and no melee to beat the mobs down, it's all useless. Melee are as important as casters in those quests (You can make some exceptions, where a shroud is done by casters only, for instance.)

Casters solo epic and end game stuff all the time. Ever solo an epic quest on a melee? Ever solo a raid on a melee? I have to disagree that melees are more important. They are not. Casters are higher sustained dps with their DoTs, and I can say it's sustained because they have the SP to finish the boss off, especially when there's enough of them.

The idea that melees are important is laughable. The only melee that's ever important is a tank.


Besides, if you think you're being greifed by casters, then stop playing a melee.
I play both, by the way, and I enjoy them both almost equally (My melee is a bit gimped at this point).

I sure hope this isn't aimed at the OP (me). I've already addressed this notion...