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View Full Version : Eladrin: Actually make Shroud 4 fight more interesting



sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 04:50 PM
Suggestion for making fights with flying bosses more entertaining and varied.

I always thought it was stupid that he just did those ineffectual strafing runs while being invincible when the blades closed in and he took off. I think he should fly up out of melee range and really start pelting the group with DBF and MS, while the devil reinforcements spawn in and the gnolls start healing him. Force the party to keep some ranged DPS on him, while having to both deal with the gnolls and the devils. That would make for a much more interesting encounter!

(posted from another thread)

We really have very few flying encounters in the game (the Abishai in Chronoscope being the only ones that spring to mind), and could stand to allow monsters with wings and ranged attacks to actually, you know, use them! It provides an opportunity for archers and casters to shine a little more brightly than melees, and in this case, with the party having to worry about both dangerous adds and healing adds, provides some opportunity for thought and division of labor that doesn't involve a caster kiting a bunch of stuff while everyone else continues to lean on auto-attack.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 05:04 PM
The only boss fight I can think of at present that has any emphasis at all on ranged attacks is the fight with Lailat in DQ 2, which is odd, since she doesn't have any special movement abilities other than teleport, which most of the other raid bosses also have.

I'd like to see all of the dragons in the game gain the ability to fly, and work in some tactics where they strafe the party with their breath weapon, maybe do a variation on the wingbeat from above, that knocks players down and deals bludgeoning or wind/sonic damage. Higher level dragons could hover and cast some spells, before coming back to the ground, and the act of landing could also be an attack of sorts...big crush damage on anyone under them, knockdown effect with smaller damage to those nearby...forcing the party to scatter and regroup periodically.

The pit fiends and horned devils should all gain the ability to fly and use their spells while doing so (Suulomaedes' lair could stand to get expanded to allow for him to fly). ToD's rooms are all big enough to allow for flight, and even have some spots where the fiend might be able to duck into a door and come out in another location, perhaps resetting or reducing aggro built up on them.

Many of the bosses we fight that can teleport don't really use the ability much. I'd like the Abbot to occasionally teleport off the combat platform to hurl some spells down at us, or call up more quells and ghosts, coming down when a certain amount of damage has been put on him, or time has passed, or some other objective has been reached, like killing off all the adds. Maybe he should gain the Form of the Lich ability to gain temporary HP on being hit, along with a Concordant Opposition item, but that don't work on ranged attacks?

Arretrikos should more often teleport out of the beatdown ring to a caster or healer and assault them.

varusso
11-09-2011, 05:11 PM
Before they add more flying bosses/mobs, they need to add the ability for PLAYERS to fly (which I dont see happening anytime soon) in those same quests. If you put the mob out of reach of 1/2 the party, you need to add a way for the party to close the gap. And telling a fully-geared melee, who has built the toon to BE a melee, to start carrying around a bow/thrown wpns for multiple boss fights is not a reasonable thing.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 05:15 PM
Before they add more flying bosses/mobs, they need to add the ability for PLAYERS to fly (which I dont see happening anytime soon) in those same quests. No. Partly because that would largely make the entire point of getting the bosses off the ground in the first place null, but also because Fly would break so much of the game in so many other ways.



If you put the mob out of reach of 1/2 the party, you need to add a way for the party to close the gap. And telling a fully-geared melee, who has built the toon to BE a melee, to start carrying around a bow/thrown wpns for multiple boss fights is not a reasonable thing.
It's not unreasonable. People pull out their bows and thrown weapons in DQ 2 and I don't hear people complaining about it, and melees back off and stand around for a moment looking for where the Lord of Blades is going to show up when he takes off during that fight periodically. It's not unreasonable to put players in less than ideal situations from time to time, especially if it makes things more interesting without hampering them greatly.

My suggestion to have the gnolls pop out along with the devils at the time that Harry takes to the wing ensures that melees have something to do if they aren't shooting at the pit fiend or running to avoid his attacks.

varusso
11-09-2011, 05:40 PM
No. Partly because that would largely make the entire point of getting the bosses off the ground in the first place null, but also because Fly would break so much of the game in so many other ways.


It's not unreasonable. People pull out their bows and thrown weapons in DQ 2 and I don't hear people complaining about it, and melees back off and stand around for a moment looking for where the Lord of Blades is going to show up when he takes off during that fight periodically. It's not unreasonable to put players in less than ideal situations from time to time, especially if it makes things more interesting without hampering them greatly.

My suggestion to have the gnolls pop out along with the devils at the time that Harry takes to the wing ensures that melees have something to do if they aren't shooting at the pit fiend or running to avoid his attacks.

These are exceptions to the rule. Putting it on more bosses would make it the rule. They dont complain because there arent many bosses that make their entire build focus completely useless by forcing them top put away all of their uber melee wpns in favor of a wpn they are not actually "trained" in. Also, the dairy queen doesnt spend ALL of her time at range. She also spends a good deal of time in melee range, knocking them on their butts and trampling them :D

See, the thing about ranged toons (whether archer or caster) -- they can hit the mob whether it is at range or up close. By BEING ranged, they have that versatility, with no real change in how well they perform. A non-range focused toon has to switch to a wpn that is almost certainly sub-par to their normal choice(s) AND use a form of attack that is not part of their toon.

"Real" melees do not need yet another hoser tactic added to the game to nerf their effectiveness. Ergo, if you put more bosses at range, you need to give players ways of closing the gap.

I know what you are trying to accomplish with the whole flying thing. It WOULD be cool except that it would effectively be yet another nerf to melees.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 05:45 PM
These are exceptions to the rule. Putting it on more bosses would make it the rule. They dont complain because there arent many bosses that make their entire build focus completely useless by forcing them top put away all of their uber melee wpns in favor of a wpn they are not actually "trained" in. Also, the dairy queen doesnt spend ALL of her time at range. She also spends a good deal of time in melee range, knocking them on their butts and trampling them :D

See, the thing about ranged toons (whether archer or caster) -- they can hit the mob whether it is at range or up close. By BEING ranged, they have that versatility, with no real change in how well they perform. A non-range focused toon has to switch to a wpn that is almost certainly sub-par to their normal choice(s) AND use a form of attack that is not part of their toon.

"Real" melees do not need yet another hoser tactic added to the game to nerf their effectiveness. Ergo, if you put more bosses at range, you need to give players ways of closing the gap.

I know what you are trying to accomplish with the whole flying thing. It WOULD be cool except that it would effectively be yet another nerf to melees.
I think you missed the fact that I wasn't suggesting that these bosses be flying all the time.

My suggestion was for the various bosses to fly for short periods of time. Harry currently does, but is invincible and can basically be ignored. I don't want to see bosses spending even half the fight in the air, but some of it would be good. This doesn't nerf melees because they're still going to account for the bulk of the damage in most cases, it merely forces players to carry a ranger weapon around with them and to be more open to ranged-capable characters in their groups (casters and archers). For Arry, I would propose that he comes back down when all 4 devils and all 4 gnolls are dead, but no sooner than 30-45 seconds after taking to the air. That is, he won't return while the adds are up, but also won't return instantly either.

NytCrawlr
11-09-2011, 05:46 PM
It's not unreasonable. (snip)

All in all it makes it more of a group game and gives rise to a demand for arcane archers and the like as well.

Edit: Eh, beat me to it...

varusso
11-09-2011, 05:56 PM
I think you missed the fact that I wasn't suggesting that these bosses be flying all the time.

My suggestion was for the various bosses to fly for short periods of time. Harry currently does, but is invincible and can basically be ignored. I don't want to see bosses spending even half the fight in the air, but some of it would be good. This doesn't nerf melees because they're still going to account for the bulk of the damage in most cases, it merely forces players to carry a ranger weapon around with them and to be more open to ranged-capable characters in their groups (casters and archers). For Arry, I would propose that he comes back down when all 4 devils and all 4 gnolls are dead, but no sooner than 30-45 seconds after taking to the air. That is, he won't return while the adds are up, but also won't return instantly either.

See, the thing is i have dealt with this in the Onyxia raid in WOW. Its not as "fun" as you might think. Melees do NOT enjoy being FORCED to put away their toys any more than a mage would enjoy being FORCED to pick up a sword. Mobs that float out of your range -- even for a few seconds -- feel like they are there forever. Think about the flying abashai in Chrono on a melee. Now give them the stats of a boss.

Now, staged fights, where the boss flies away and you fight a bunch of trash on the ground, while the ranged guys pick away at the boss -- those are better because the melees get to do something "constructive" -- clear the trash so the boss will land and be in range again. The problem here of course is that the casters are just going to blow up the trash and the melees are once again relegated to torch-holders. If you make the trash somehow immune to the casters, you just **** EVERYONE off.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 06:17 PM
See, the thing is i have dealt with this in the Onyxia raid in WOW. Its not as "fun" as you might think. Melees do NOT enjoy being FORCED to put away their toys any more than a mage would enjoy being FORCED to pick up a sword. Mobs that float out of your range -- even for a few seconds -- feel like they are there forever. Think about the flying abashai in Chrono on a melee. Now give them the stats of a boss.

Now, staged fights, where the boss flies away and you fight a bunch of trash on the ground, while the ranged guys pick away at the boss -- those are better because the melees get to do something "constructive" -- clear the trash so the boss will land and be in range again. The problem here of course is that the casters are just going to blow up the trash and the melees are once again relegated to torch-holders. If you make the trash somehow immune to the casters, you just **** EVERYONE off.
In this particular fight the gnolls are spread too far apart for casters to take them out super-quickly and the devils teleport around quite a bit, making them hard to zap. Casters have been dealing with both quickly and easily because everyone stays bunched up, the devils spawn on the group, casters CC, nuke or instakill them, and everyone runs to the middle in anticipation of Harry returning while the casters take out the gnolls who are restoring HP much more slowly than melees are bringing him down.

With the devils spawning very dangerous blades and Harry actually nuking the party in a real and significant fashion, and with the gnolls up at the same time, there is more incentive for the group to spread out, which means the devils moving around more, and casters' good AoEs becoming less efficient and less likely to wipe everything out too quickly.

Again, I'll refer you to Lord of Blades: the boss "jumps" out of the arena and everyone is left with a few moments to run to a safe spot, wait for the boss to return, and then rush to his anticipated location after he's made his charge attack. Those kind of breaks are places where ranged attacks could be involved, by not having the boss disappear or become invulnerable.

Besides, most melee characters have some abilities that work on ranged attacks. Barbarians are adding Str to their to-hit rolls and damage, Paladins can add Divine Favor and Might and their capstone to ranged attacks, Fighters and Rogues can use their Haste Boosts, Monks would have a reason to pick up 1,000 Stars...

Right now our combats are becoming rather uniform; the only difference between fighting Harry and Sally is that the latter has a curse effect that promotes using an aggro magnet of some kind, while the former has randomized aggro patterns to some degree and is more likely to throw spells at non-aggroed characters. Horoth basically builds on the first part of Sally's difference, emphasizing the use of a tank, but fighting Horoth and fighting Sally is largely the same. Fighting Velah is basically the same as fighting Harry. The bosses don't move, don't force anyone to do anything but the strongest thing they possibly can, and tend to promote simply using auto-attack for large portions of the fights, and that's true for many, many other boss encounters. There are environmental differences occasionally, and their are trash mobs that get added to the fights to give a few people something else to be doing.

I'm proposing some actual differences from one fight to the next that separate these bosses more fully from both each other and their less impressive brethren. Why do we have enemies with wings if they aren't going to use them? Intelligence if they won't ever use any tactics?

Kielbasa
11-09-2011, 06:19 PM
I feel there should be more quests with antimagic fields and enemies that cast tensors transformation on Wizards, Sorcerers, and other casters forcing them to pick up a staff and wack away at stuff. This will really showcase all those non magical characters like fighters, rogues, barbarians, and rangers. And just to be sure the casters feel the full effect these quests will disallow spell like abilities.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 06:46 PM
I feel there should be more quests with antimagic fields and enemies that cast tensors transformation on Wizards, Sorcerers, and other casters forcing them to pick up a staff and wack away at stuff. This will really showcase all those non magical characters like fighters, rogues, barbarians, and rangers. And just to be sure the casters feel the full effect these quests will disallow spell like abilities.
I feel like that is a much bigger penalty than forcing melees to throw things occasionally. Tossing the occasional Tenser's would be reasonable, except that raids tend to fail if healing stops.

The solution to casters is to give enemies elemental resists, occasional immunities, Spell Resistance and saves, and to provide "distractions" that drain caster's mana, such as adds, though the typical "take these things and kite them" approach starts to leave a bad taste when it gets used overmuch, as does the "swarms of dangerous, but short-duration CC-able monsters custom-made for casters to worry about" method.

varusso
11-09-2011, 07:08 PM
In this particular fight the gnolls are spread too far apart for casters to take them out super-quickly and the devils teleport around quite a bit, making them hard to zap. Casters have been dealing with both quickly and easily because everyone stays bunched up, the devils spawn on the group, casters CC, nuke or instakill them, and everyone runs to the middle in anticipation of Harry returning while the casters take out the gnolls who are restoring HP much more slowly than melees are bringing him down.

With the devils spawning very dangerous blades and Harry actually nuking the party in a real and significant fashion, and with the gnolls up at the same time, there is more incentive for the group to spread out, which means the devils moving around more, and casters' good AoEs becoming less efficient and less likely to wipe everything out too quickly.

Again, I'll refer you to Lord of Blades: the boss "jumps" out of the arena and everyone is left with a few moments to run to a safe spot, wait for the boss to return, and then rush to his anticipated location after he's made his charge attack. Those kind of breaks are places where ranged attacks could be involved, by not having the boss disappear or become invulnerable.

Besides, most melee characters have some abilities that work on ranged attacks. Barbarians are adding Str to their to-hit rolls and damage, Paladins can add Divine Favor and Might and their capstone to ranged attacks, Fighters and Rogues can use their Haste Boosts, Monks would have a reason to pick up 1,000 Stars...

Right now our combats are becoming rather uniform; the only difference between fighting Harry and Sally is that the latter has a curse effect that promotes using an aggro magnet of some kind, while the former has randomized aggro patterns to some degree and is more likely to throw spells at non-aggroed characters. Horoth basically builds on the first part of Sally's difference, emphasizing the use of a tank, but fighting Horoth and fighting Sally is largely the same. Fighting Velah is basically the same as fighting Harry. The bosses don't move, don't force anyone to do anything but the strongest thing they possibly can, and tend to promote simply using auto-attack for large portions of the fights, and that's true for many, many other boss encounters. There are environmental differences occasionally, and their are trash mobs that get added to the fights to give a few people something else to be doing.

I'm proposing some actual differences from one fight to the next that separate these bosses more fully from both each other and their less impressive brethren. Why do we have enemies with wings if they aren't going to use them? Intelligence if they won't ever use any tactics?

I cant comment on LOB, havent run it at all yet.

As for harry...current implementation, its not hard at all to take out those gnolls in a few seconds with an arcane that knows what they are doing. I was the only arcane in shroud yesterday, dropped a dancing ball on the group when we hit phase 2, the group killed the trash. Drop a web where the first set of gnolls spawns, ball for the second group, wailed third, back to CoD the second group, hold + nuke on first group, drop DOT on harry a couple times along the way. The gnolls didnt last long enough to add significant HP to him, and harry died like a punk.

Since I am timered, I wont be able to play with the "new" shroud for a couple more days, so this will likely change a fair bit, but pre-u12 i can say with certainty that it is not hard at all.

As for the mobs being spread out -- thats simple. Go ahead and spread out when harry pops out. After they spawn, run to the center, wail/implosion and kill them all, then run back out before harry comes back. You dont start with 100 blades clumped all together, and the mages still kill everything. And before you say "stay spread out and let the melees kill the trash" ... good luck finding a healer that wants to deal with that in the shroud. especially with the new blades whirling all around. As before, melees remain bleh for dealing with trash when compared to blue-bars. They are really only there for sustained DPS on bosses. If you move the boss out of their reach, you only increase the incentive to leave melees out entirely and just go with all caster/ranged parties.

Kielbasa
11-09-2011, 07:26 PM
I feel like that is a much bigger penalty than forcing melees to throw things occasionally. Tossing the occasional Tenser's would be reasonable, except that raids tend to fail if healing stops.

The solution to casters is to give enemies elemental resists, occasional immunities, Spell Resistance and saves, and to provide "distractions" that drain caster's mana, such as adds, though the typical "take these things and kite them" approach starts to leave a bad taste when it gets used overmuch, as does the "swarms of dangerous, but short-duration CC-able monsters custom-made for casters to worry about" method.

Forcing melee characters to make one more DR breaker yeah they'll love that most likely many of them will just pike during the time that they cannot melee. Most melees wouldn't even be able to hit the boss with returning throwing weapon consistently due to lacking the dexterity to do so or lacking brutal throw. Of course they could try to use a bow but many of them probably lack bow strength and any of the other feats that kind of make ranged viable. So pretty much your idea would relegate those people to plinking away for little to no damage while the boss is flying overhead out of range of their real weapons while casters nuke away regardless of where the boss is. I can understand wanting to have varied boss encounters but there has to be a better way to do this. Having levers that need to be shot during a boss fight to prevent certain things or create a vulnerability in the boss I can get behind. It could be a puzzle that requires someone to tell them what order to shoot them in for example. Or require 3-4 people working together to simultaneously hit different targets.

Angelus_dead
11-09-2011, 07:27 PM
Suggestion for making fights with flying bosses more entertaining and varied.
I made suggestions for that kind of thing a week or two after Shroud came out...

It appeared that some of them were used in Vision of Destruction. But a central silliness of Shroud4 remained: Arraetrikos flaps around above you in a hilariously meaningless bombing run. It's particularly funny that there is specific DM narration to announce that he's flying in the sky... as if that were something important to know.

I suppose that quite a few players are simply unaware that Arraetrikos is flying at all; they just figure he teleports away for 40 seconds.

Xenostrata
11-09-2011, 07:39 PM
I'd /sign this.

I'd go so far as to say more flying combat could be fun, and we wouldn't need to have the fly spell to do it - have more areas with the "Light Gravity" effect and let us jump onto our targets.

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Forcing melee characters to make one more DR breaker yeah they'll love that most likely many of them will just pike during the time that they cannot melee. Most melees wouldn't even be able to hit the boss with returning throwing weapon consistently due to lacking the dexterity to do so or lacking brutal throw. Of course they could try to use a bow but many of them probably lack bow strength and any of the other feats that kind of make ranged viable. So pretty much your idea would relegate those people to plinking away for little to no damage while the boss is flying overhead out of range of their real weapons while casters nuke away regardless of where the boss is. I can understand wanting to have varied boss encounters but there has to be a better way to do this. Having levers that need to be shot during a boss fight to prevent certain things or create a vulnerability in the boss I can get behind. It could be a puzzle that requires someone to tell them what order to shoot them in for example. Or require 3-4 people working together to simultaneously hit different targets.

Not that this was in my mind at the time, but having the Dex-dumping guys struggle a little for 30 seconds a couple of times during a raid doesn't seem like a problem to me. We've had plenty of raids where the melees stand around doing nothing for the entire 3-15 minutes of the raid...I don't see 30 seconds here and there as being a great hardship. Are there cries of unfairness in DQ2 because melees can't reach the queen when she is on her throne?

You want a silly puzzle instead of some actual tactics or variety? Why? I feel like people are replying to this thread working under the notion that I don't have melees or something. Do you pike when the queen is off the arena proper? My melees pull out throwing weapons and let loose.

Do you find hitting levers to be all that entertaining? Would you volunteer to be the one to do it in the middle of a heated battle?

As for other flying fights, like dragons, I'd like it if their flying attacks were more dangerous, but there was cover around to hide behind.

Elixxer
11-09-2011, 09:26 PM
I suppose that quite a few players are simply unaware that Arraetrikos is flying at all; they just figure he teleports away for 40 seconds.

Wait for real? You're telling me this whole time he didn't teleport away in p4? He just goes up and flys?