PDA

View Full Version : Any upgrades to other named items from the "Ruins of Gianthold" Adventure Pack?



LightBear
11-06-2011, 04:59 PM
As the title says, a lot of named items from that pack could use upgrades as well.

Terebinthia
11-06-2011, 06:20 PM
I don't know, but I did a Tor blooding run on normal the other day and we had quite a bit of the named Tor loot drop. 2 bronze ingot arcanums, a livewood bow, two intricate field optics, the greataxe, black dragon helm, possibly some more stuff. Of course one run is not enough to sense a pattern but I thought it interesting.

sweez
11-06-2011, 08:46 PM
I don't know, but I did a Tor blooding run on normal the other day and we had quite a bit of the named Tor loot drop. 2 bronze ingot arcanums, a livewood bow, two intricate field optics, the greataxe, black dragon helm, possibly some more stuff. Of course one run is not enough to sense a pattern but I thought it interesting.

So... unless you're using all those ubber items you pulled you're actually agreeing with the OP in a very convoluted way?

Arctik
11-06-2011, 08:52 PM
I really don't think the loot needs a boost. Anything from reavers is definently NOT endgame loot, or should it ever be. Reavers is what? A level 15 quest? It should have level 15-like loot.

Edit: BAH, just noticed you ment non-raid loot, but still my opinion stands the same, loot quality should be equal to that of the quest.

Rathic
11-07-2011, 01:14 AM
I really don't think the loot needs a boost. Anything from reavers is definently NOT endgame loot, or should it ever be. Reavers is what? A level 15 quest? It should have level 15-like loot.

Edit: BAH, just noticed you ment non-raid loot, but still my opinion stands the same, loot quality should be equal to that of the quest.

raid loot effectiveness should be based on level buuuuuuut...

why is the loot from a level 10 raid (von) better than the loot from reavers fate a 14 raid?

and better than the titan loot :|

grgurius
11-07-2011, 02:35 AM
I'm still holding my breath for the epic gianthold.

Cmon devs, flip the switch already, i'm turning blue here.

jaegarnel
11-07-2011, 03:10 AM
raid loot effectiveness should be based on level buuuuuuut...

why is the loot from a level 10 raid (von) better than the loot from reavers fate a 14 raid?

and better than the titan loot :|

It isn't?

Apart from a few items (Sword of Shadows), the VoN loot is good for TRing because it's ML 10, but other than that it's not in any way, shape or form better than Reaver's fate loot.
There is loot that's sill useful at cap for many builds from Reaver (Madstone boots, Napkin, Gauntlets, Dreamsplitter), there isn't any in VoN except possibly for the delving boots.

Of course you can epic it, which makes it endgame (although most of the loot is still bad even after being epiced, but that's another topic) but the epic raid is lvl 25 and therefore much higher than Reaver's Fate

Shade
11-07-2011, 03:40 AM
off topic but:

Being the raidloot from reaver will REQUIRE multiple runs, and seals to get on elite - and elite is quite tough now..

No it should not be balanced for lvl14s, because level14s will never get that stuff.

Sure the base normal stuff.. But no, not the elite stuff.

There is no good reason why the raid can't have good base things, and good endgame loot in it. For gameplay reasons it really should.

Focusing on some silly arbitrary cr level does not make for fun gameplay. It's just a silly number, it means nothing.

Perhaps it shoudl be a bit balanced against the ml.. But that really only affects TRs, and TRs are absurdedly powerful regardless, so i cant see it being much of a concern.

Anyways for many items, that is the case.. Tho was so before the upgrades, they are fairly minor.

RE: Other items upgraded: Nope. U12 focuses purely on raidloot upgrades for reaver and abbot, and new raid loot for hound and vod. Elite only on vod/hound, Minor changes on base items in regular reaver/abbot, with upgrades available if you beat elite and get a a seal.

protokon
11-07-2011, 04:12 AM
off topic but:

Being the raidloot from reaver will REQUIRE multiple runs, and seals to get on elite - and elite is quite tough now..

No it should not be balanced for lvl14s, because level14s will never get that stuff.

Sure the base normal stuff.. But no, not the elite stuff.

There is no good reason why the raid can't have good base things, and good endgame loot in it. For gameplay reasons it really should.

Focusing on some silly arbitrary cr level does not make for fun gameplay. It's just a silly number, it means nothing.

Perhaps it shoudl be a bit balanced against the ml.. But that really only affects TRs, and TRs are absurdedly powerful regardless, so i cant see it being much of a concern.

Anyways for many items, that is the case.. Tho was so before the upgrades, they are fairly minor.

RE: Other items upgraded: Nope. U12 focuses purely on raidloot upgrades for reaver and abbot, and new raid loot for hound and vod. Elite only on vod/hound, Minor changes on base items in regular reaver/abbot, with upgrades available if you beat elite and get a a seal.

I like the idea of it being balanced for 20's shade. but your argument of leaving it as a level 16 raid and ignoring the CR rating system is ridiculous - the number is there to give players an idea of what level they should be in order to take on the quest at that difficulty.

With that being said, I see two options: Either change the CR system for this raid (and possibly others too) so that the hard/elite CR scales accordingly (said 14 normal, 17 hard, 20 elite) or give us another difficulty option, like epic was intended, for capped toons. It'd basically be very similar to devil assault and how it scales to 6/12/18 for n/h/e. Same concept, better rewards for higher level players and a level-appropriate challenge. Higher HP for the reaver, like it is now, for an experienced capped raid group armed with greensteel and epic goodies.

I like the idea of the scaling CR for hard/elite personally. I think it'd make everyone happy.

Shade
11-07-2011, 03:37 PM
16 raid and ignoring the CR rating system is ridiculous -

pfft. It's not even close to redicules, its 100% Fact in ddo. Levels mean very little. CR means even less.

my lvl13 sorc is about 50 times more powerful then you average lvl20 caster.. He can outkill, outlast, outperform and solo 99% of content in the game all the way up to lvl20 at that lvl. It's not about level anymore, it about player knowledge, skill and gear.

the lvl12 titan raid is abbot 1000 million times harder then the majority of lvl13+ quests. Reaver elite is failed by lvl20s often. Abbot (cr17) is a trillion times harder then every lvl18+ quest.

It's just an arbitrary figure.

I dont care what it represents. To plays who really understand this game it represents very little.

Far as noobs not knowing. Maybe they should read the ingame hints, how about this one:

Tip #30: Raid adventures allow raiding parties (up to 12 players) to enter. These are high level adventures, and are tough to complete!

I don't care if its cr -81723, or CR1 or CR 9000. It's a raid. Its tough to complete. Its reward should match its difficulty.

For non raid quests, on normal.. Sure, follow that guideline. For raids, it means nothing more then the fact DDO is an old game.

Arctik
11-07-2011, 03:42 PM
I'm pretty sure the OP is talking about NON-raid loot from the gianthold pack, such as the random named items you can get from Tor.

soloist12
11-07-2011, 03:59 PM
GH loot didn't need upgrading - just needed the stats tweaked around. Most of the loot there was on par with random generated loot, sometimes worse. For the most part, players never wanted 90% of the GH item's stats; you'd use a couple items for 1 stat, not the 3-4 on the item. As a result, the loot did not consolidate slots, and so the majority of it was bank trash - even for TRing.

QuantumFX
11-07-2011, 06:21 PM
raid loot effectiveness should be based on level buuuuuuut...

why is the loot from a level 10 raid (von) better than the loot from reavers fate a 14 raid?

and better than the titan loot :|

At risk of threadjacking:

The Titan Awakes loot is in many cases better than the non-epic VoN loot. Don’t get me wrong, there is a ton of cool at level VoN loot. (Delving Boots, Delving Suit, SoS, Dragon’s Eye, Helm of the Mroranon.) But, for a level 9 character, the Titan loot is more useful.

The Belt of Brute Strength: Greater False Life is better than Moderate Fortification. Especially when you can go get a Heavy Fortification necklace at level 9. If you want GFL at level 9 you better have a Crystal Cove hat* or some crafting levels and House C favor. The only raid belt that can hope to replace it is the Lion Headed Belt Buckle. And the only real replacement for it on a melee is the Shavarath belts.

The Chattering Ring: Really, there is nothing that you can directly compare this to. But, for twink purposes, the +13 spot is better than the +10 spot on the delving goggles. And then there is the +3 Dodge that you won’t see again until level 20. Even the Seal of the Earth can be replaced with a potion.

The Seven Fingered Gloves: Sorry, but this has no equal for a rogue build. Even when you get better Open Lock and Disable Device gear you still have these on your hotbar for scroll usage. And it’s still damn good if you’re just a build with UMD.

The Gyroscopic Boots of Striding: 30% striding 4 levels ahead of everyone else. My rogue has these *and* the Delving Boots. The only time the delving boots come into play is if I know something is going to be slippery or spamming holds. On the plus side, the Madstone Boots are now going to become a clear upgrade rather than the situational upgrade they are now.

The Skull Fetish Mask: OK, I *could* craft the +6 CHA. But, I could also craft the +6 WIS on the Helm of the Mroranon.

The Titanic Docent: The clickie on this is amazing for a Warforged. It’s made numerious appearances in Mr. Cow’s Diaries of a True Reincarnate threads.

Sure, you could mention stuff like the Battle Coin. But, I could mention the Kundarak Warding Braciers.

* Yes, you could have Superior False Life. But, I still believe my point of “The Titan belt is more useful at level 9” stands.

noinfo
11-07-2011, 06:48 PM
As the title says, a lot of named items from that pack could use upgrades as well.

Especially the armour considering farm time involved.

Khellendros13
11-07-2011, 07:23 PM
Tor loot definitely needs an upgrade. Who wears +5 stat items at Level 15? +6 stat items with a junk suffix are easily available.

The Dragon Helms are unique looking...give us a reason to wear them.

B0ltdrag0n
11-07-2011, 07:30 PM
pfft. It's not even close to redicules, its 100% Fact in ddo. Levels mean very little. CR means even less.

my lvl13 sorc is about 50 times more powerful then you average lvl20 caster.. He can outkill, outlast, outperform and solo 99% of content in the game all the way up to lvl20 at that lvl. It's not about level anymore, it about player knowledge, skill and gear.
\

No. A CR system represents a challenge for someone or comparable level with basic, non extensive knowledge as well as average gear for their level. Despite your grandiose claims, and dismissal of the mechanic that is what it means and represents, that is what it is.


the lvl12 titan raid is abbot 1000 million times harder then the majority of lvl13+ quests. Reaver elite is failed by lvl20s often. Abbot (cr17) is a trillion times harder then every lvl18+ quest.

It's just an arbitrary figure.

No. Challenge ratings are not used in PnP 'puzzles' created by GM's usually if they require players to think and do things that are outside the scoped mechanics of the game. The puzzles, and 'alternate win conditions' in the 2 quests you listed are specificaly like that. THEY are the quests that are the exception. That is to say they are the arbitrary figures, whereas the other quests represent the normative. You cannot put a CR easily on something that requires someone's cognitive reasoning skills. Thus the quests are CR based on the encounters only, and I'd say they reach that level easily.



I dont care what it represents. To plays who really understand this game it represents very little.

Far as noobs not knowing. Maybe they should read the ingame hints, how about this one:

Tip #30: Raid adventures allow raiding parties (up to 12 players) to enter. These are high level adventures, and are tough to complete!

You say you do not care and you are dismissive of those you call 'noobs' yet I'm fairly certain that Tip #30 is one of SEVERAL tips that are outdated and quite frankly only partially correct now. The whole tip system should be removed, or updated to reflect the games reality. Especially if such old outdated ones are going to be used such as:

Tip #61: High level clerics can cast the Raise Dead spell, which will return you to life with the least XP penalty. (no xp debt anymore)

Tip # 30 which you quoted.

# Tip #71: '3d6' means three six-sided dice are being rolled. For example, when you see that a weapon does '2d4' damage, it means that two 4-sided dice are rolled for damage, for a damage range of 2-8. (change in how numbers are written)

Tip #77: A Wizard is the only class that can learn every arcane spell in the game. Simply find a scroll of the spell and inscribe it into your spell book. (Technically untrue depending on how you view infusions. Though I disagree I add this for completion sake.)

Tip #85: Slimes, undead, and constructs are immune to critical hits and a Rogue's sneak attack. (I believe they have a fortification value now at least constructs do that can be bypassed)

Sure 5 examples in the first 100 are not a high percentage, but it is safe to say that there are discrepancies now, and that is among them.





Now that being said. Titan Raid, and alot of explorer items (sands, GH) could use an upgrade or two to make them useful at level, or a 'upgrade' like the raid items are getting making them pseudo epics. Or as some of you have come to call them 'walmart epics'

protokon
11-07-2011, 08:22 PM
pfft. It's not even close to redicules, its 100% Fact in ddo. Levels mean very little. CR means even less.


level means very little...right. so a level 1 barbarian is very little different than a level 20 barbarian. nice.

heck even a level 16 barb versus a level 20 barb with an esos...sure, match those two in the lobster real quick and see who survives.

And korthos quests at CR 1-3 mean nothing. so you should expect the same difficulty as
a cr 19 amrath quest, right? :rolleyes:



my lvl13 sorc is about 50 times more powerful then you average lvl20 caster.. He can outkill, outlast, outperform and solo 99% of content in the game all the way up to lvl20 at that lvl. It's not about level anymore, it about player knowledge, skill and gear.

This one almost knocked me out of my chair, your a funny guy Shade. No he isn't. That's a FACT. A level 20 caster has level 9 spells: wail, energy drain, mass hold monster, meteor swarm, and more - not to mention epic gear / higher level caster gear. You could probably ask your average newb which caster was better, and they'd tell you the capped caster without even looking at character sheets. That's just common sense and a basic principal in this game: higher level characters are going to be stronger and (should be) better geared.




the lvl12 titan raid is abbot 1000 million times harder then the majority of lvl13+ quests. Reaver elite is failed by lvl20s often. Abbot (cr17) is a trillion times harder then every lvl18+ quest.

Hard is a completely relative assessment to the person making the comparison. The mario skills required to do the lower raids, or complex design does not constitute labeling the raids as "hard". I've seen reavers fate fail one time last year. that was because two people mis-communicated and messed the puzzle up. Maybe khyber just has a lot of lower quality players than Thelanis - on our server, we don't fail reavers fate on capped toons, especially "often". Abbot is not a trillion times harder than any quest. Again, on our server it is pugged out on a regular basis and lfm's are almost as common as shrouds. Even the "newby" guilds on our server are running it. Sorry, I don't agree that having to do something other than "swing axe here" makes it harder, maybe it does for you.




It's just an arbitrary figure.

It isn't. You don't see level 12's trying to get into shroud, or 15's trying to get into TOD, do you? yet you will see 12's running tempest spine / von at level, and 15's running reaver's fate at level.



I dont care what it represents. To plays who really understand this game it represents very little.

*sigh*. This number is probably the single most important piece of information for a quest for those who "really understand the game". TR's take extreme care picking out what quests to do to level based on CR difficulty, to maximize leveling efficiency. I thought that was a no-brainer to me at least.



Far as noobs not knowing. Maybe they should read the ingame hints, how about this one:

Tip #30: Raid adventures allow raiding parties (up to 12 players) to enter. These are high level adventures, and are tough to complete!

huh? did you just quote an in-game tool tip that hasn't been updated since the game came out? /facepalm. not really relevant to the discussion or point.



I don't care if its cr -81723, or CR1 or CR 9000. It's a raid. Its tough to complete. Its reward should match its difficulty.

This is about the only comment that you made that makes sense, Shade. Keyword *I* don't care. All of the raids are "tough" to complete - by an appropriate party. They are trivialized in general by the sheer power of capped toons. Older raids get easier to higher level players with a power creep. Raids that were designed to be a part of an adventure pack at a lower level. Like I said, if you want a new updated difficulty for capped characters and for it to be "challenging" again, that makes perfect sense. but to expect them to take a gianthold-centered raid and make it challenging for "capped" character is just what I said before - ridiculous. It is something YOU personally want, not what everyone wants / the community wants. That is, how did you put it? Fact :)




For non raid quests, on normal.. Sure, follow that guideline. For raids, it means nothing more then the fact DDO is an old game.
There is no differentiation. Same level quest for a party twice the size. a level 14 question versus a level 14 raid should have very little difference other than having mobs / raid boss challenging for a group of 12 people of that level range. A level 16 raid on elite should not be balanced for level 20's.

Vazok1
11-07-2011, 10:24 PM
or they could make gianthold epic. that would solve the problem of it not being an endgame raid as level 20's would run it on epic if they wanted a challenge :) and would solve the op's problem of the loot needing upgrades. despite him not actually saying that :)

Grenada
11-07-2011, 10:36 PM
the lvl12 titan raid is abbot 1000 million times harder then the majority of lvl13+ quests. Reaver elite is failed by lvl20s often. Abbot (cr17) is a trillion times harder then every lvl18+ quest.



in case you were unaware, 1000 million = 1 billion

:D


Anyways, I like the idea of epic gianthold (which has nothing to do with my recent purchase of the pack, of course...)

biggin
11-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Upgraded Globe of Imperial Blood to +2 profane bonus to all stats. Suck it Litany!

LightBear
11-08-2011, 02:09 AM
So... unless you're using all those ubber items you pulled you're actually agreeing with the OP in a very convoluted way?

I wasn't talking about quantity but about quality. My hope still stands to see an upgraded version of Daggertooth's Belt. I would be more then happy with just +5 con on it.

gloopygloop
11-08-2011, 07:05 AM
pfft. It's not even close to redicules, its 100% Fact in ddo. Levels mean very little. CR means even less.

my lvl13 sorc is about 50 times more powerful then you average lvl20 caster.. He can outkill, outlast, outperform and solo 99% of content in the game all the way up to lvl20 at that lvl. It's not about level anymore, it about player knowledge, skill and gear.

the lvl12 titan raid is abbot 1000 million times harder then the majority of lvl13+ quests. Reaver elite is failed by lvl20s often. Abbot (cr17) is a trillion times harder then every lvl18+ quest.

It's just an arbitrary figure.

I dont care what it represents. To plays who really understand this game it represents very little.

Far as noobs not knowing. Maybe they should read the ingame hints, how about this one:

Tip #30: Raid adventures allow raiding parties (up to 12 players) to enter. These are high level adventures, and are tough to complete!

I don't care if its cr -81723, or CR1 or CR 9000. It's a raid. Its tough to complete. Its reward should match its difficulty.

For non raid quests, on normal.. Sure, follow that guideline. For raids, it means nothing more then the fact DDO is an old game.

I'm sure that your Sorcerer is very good at killing enemies, but that's not what arcane casters are for. Your job is to buff the melee characters in the quest. I'm okay with you using some of your spell points to blow up monsters, as long as you're passing out Blur, Greater Heroism, all elemental resists, Haste, Rage and every other buff that will benefit the melee characters. Extended.

The nice thing about having a Sorcerer is that you can have fun with the rest of your SP after you pass out all of those buffs because you have so many SP.

thewalex
11-08-2011, 01:05 PM
Upgraded Globe of Imperial Blood to +2 profane bonus to all stats. Suck it Litany!

My thoughts have been this exactly, ever since I saw that the globe didn't stack and Litany did. That would be a sweet epic item!

elraido
11-08-2011, 01:57 PM
I'm sure that your Sorcerer is very good at killing enemies, but that's not what arcane casters are for. Your job is to buff the melee characters in the quest. I'm okay with you using some of your spell points to blow up monsters, as long as you're passing out Blur, Greater Heroism, all elemental resists, Haste, Rage and every other buff that will benefit the melee characters. Extended.

The nice thing about having a Sorcerer is that you can have fun with the rest of your SP after you pass out all of those buffs because you have so many SP.

have to +1 that one!!!!