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404error
11-04-2011, 05:45 PM
Many players have applied to the Mournlands preview program, but none have ever said they were in the program. Many players say that it doesn’t exist on those facts alone. Well, I assure you that it does exist, but because Mournlanders past and present are not allowed to reveal who they are, it is difficult to prove.

Many of them are guild members, forum friends, silent soloers or in-game idols, and they are encouraged to participate in both the live community and the Mournlands community. They do this so they do not lose touch with what brought them to Mournlands in the first place, while still bringing a “useable” set of feedback. Today, we will go over what the preview program is, why it is secret, and how to get into it.

Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.

The Mournlands Preview Server and its players are shrouded in secret in mystery for many reasons. One reason is to keep them from being pressured into revealing information before it is ready to be released. Another is to allow them to actually continue their DDO lives without the Mournlands program changing how the rest of the community views them. It would be difficult to look at someone who is marked as a Mournlander and not want to know what the future holds. So for the safety of their own entertainment, the Mournlanders are kept hidden.

In addition, much of what finds its way onto Mournlands is not finished, still in development, and simply not ready to see the light of the world yet. As such, the Mournlands Preview Program has a gated access, which might be one of the most well known aspects of it. Operated by the QA department, this process exists in order to choose those who would give the sort of feedback that is desired for development. Applicants are reviewed with a variety of qualities in mind. Posting history, quality of application, infraction/ban history, need of player type, and referral are some of the many different ways that each applicant is reviewed. One of the highest priorities is previous posting history. Knowing what sort of feedback has been given before is a good indication of what feedback will be given in the future. However, don’t let a low posting count deter you from applying! Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.

In the end, having an opinion and a reason behind that opinion is the strongest thing that can be used to get access to the Mournlands Preview Program.

So the next time you hear someone say that the Mournlands Preview Server is a myth… You can tell them the truth. Yes. It does exist but only the acceptance email will ever prove that fact and by then, it’s too late.

The Link to how to apply to the preview program (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282419)

Sarezar
11-04-2011, 08:05 PM
I know this is a difficult question to answer, but how much in percentage would you say development is influenced by 1) Mournalds feedback, 2) Lammania feedback, and 3) what Turbine wants to do?

Roughly :)

Jaid314
11-05-2011, 01:49 AM
eh, it's pretty standard policy for stuff in extremely early phases. i've alpha-tested for a few games, where i've had to agree to NDAs and such (did it for family, otherwise probably wouldn't have bothered to apply). given how much the game changed from that early alpha as compared to release, i can understand why.

Shade
11-05-2011, 01:58 AM
eh, it's pretty standard policy for stuff in extremely early phases. i've alpha-tested for a few games, where i've had to agree to NDAs and such (did it for family, otherwise probably wouldn't have bothered to apply). given how much the game changed from that early alpha as compared to release, i can understand why.

standard? what??

Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.

altrocks
11-05-2011, 02:04 AM
Sounds cool, 404. I don't have the time for it. I barely have the time to actually play these days. But...

What are the chances of doing a Mournlands-like test server, whose function is specifically to seek out bugs, exploits, etc, before they hit lama/live. I'm sure there are more methodical and technical minded players who would be interested in helping with such a thing that simply do not have a taste for the vagueries of abstract and subjective things like balance. Have them test out things when the engine or code is messed with to adjust or fix a problem with a focus on functionality.

Game balance is important, of course, as is making sure the product that's coming out is fun to play. But neither of those matter when people are constantly frustrated because of things not working, bug reports going missing and Developers not hearing about well-known bugs until they happen to stumble upon it in a forum thread after a year of people talking about it. For instance:

- Handwraps (I've seen "Handwraps now working..." in various forms from every update for the last year and they are still problematic)
- Opportunist Feat not working with Sneak Attack (Relatively new to the Devs, but well known to players for the better part of a year now. It was made especially problematic with the recent changes to Raid boss fortification)
-The sheer size of the known bugs list and the general trend for that list to grow instead of shrink.

I think you guys do a great job with creating fun and new experiences for the game. I have no issues with that at all. In fact, I think the content put out over the last year has been spectacular. But when entire classes become unplayable or obsolete for weeks/months at a time because of a technical oversight that could have been caught early on by many of the dedicated players you have available, it makes it quite hard to enjoy the new content as intended.

My 2 copper.

Nysrock
11-05-2011, 03:05 AM
Thanks for taking the time to let the player community know whats going on.


I, for one, can see why you'd want to keep such things as low key as possible. I have seen way too many posts by people complaining about item descriptions and such on Lammania being wrong or screwed up and then complaining about the devs being too lazy to take the time to do them right. What always strikes me funny is that this is on a TEST server and, as such, isn't live yet.

I like how you guys worry about content first and then polish everything as best you can before releasing live. Mournlords sounds like a logical step in that process to get creative insight from the testers without all the negative feedback.

Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see what comes next. :cool:

mystafyi
11-05-2011, 03:33 AM
and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle.

The worst games released tend to keep their NDA's right up to release. The earlier a company drops their NDA, the better the game usually is.
You ask why this is?
Simple reason, bad publicity hurts sales/revenue. Alot of times these companies know their game is a pile of ****.

Mournlords sounds like a logical step in that process to get creative insight from the testers without all the negative feedback.
The most successful companies only care about negative feedback. sorry but this is true.

Yokido
11-05-2011, 04:43 AM
Turbine made Mournlands because the players in Lammania weren't
being honest about their opinions or their opinions were too bias.

It's been seen on multiple accounts that the preview server does
not give a good enough idea of what to expect resistance against,
one of the bigger examples would be the global cooldowns(which scared
a good deal of the player base away from the game due to the
inability to stare at consistently flickering lights, borderline epileptics
who were previously able to cope with the light changes of the game).

The reason selective membership is probably being activated is
because they want people who aren't bias towards the game,
people who notice changes, and people to reveal their gaming
mind-set.

It probably isn't that everyone on Lammania testing lacks
the right mind-set, it's probably that most of them don't,
and weeding through it is a financial setback.

Oh and Turbine, +1

Vhlad
11-05-2011, 04:43 AM
Some players may believe that the secretive aspect of Mournlands does more harm than good. Ultimately, the question they want answered is: What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?

In economics we call it a competitive market under asymmetric information. Mournlanders have the opportunity to know what is nerfed and what is buffed before the rest of the playerbase. They may have known: (a) to trade their rare desert scrolls early, (b) which items would be upgraded and how (i.e. to collect raid loot that they would have otherwise given away or traded), (c) to focus on one character early because TR was coming, (d) not to build a character around mithral full plate + evasion before the nerf, (e) things that I cannot talk about (tavern, necropolis, boots, runes, etc.), (f) Many more examples (i.e. trade WoPs before the nerf). Other players can add to the list if they wish, but you get the idea.

How do you police it? What incentives or disincentives are there? Information from previous incarnations of Mournlands has been leaked before and has given players and guilds a tremendous advantage in the live game.

As a competitive gamer who doesn't play DDO anymore but still checks up on the game, convince me that the secrecy and exclusivity behind Mournlands does not place non-mournlanders at a massive competitive disadvantage.

You can't monitor their trading habits because they can post in the trade forums and use the auction house with a separate account. You can't police what information they disclose because they can use vent/skype/teamspeak, external forums, etc.

If your only control mechanisms are screening, trust, and the threat of losing access, then good luck with that.

Urist
11-05-2011, 08:09 AM
What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?
In a game with barely a nod toward PvP play, what form of competition are you concerned that they have an advantage in? What harm would it do to the community if they were so prescient?


In economics we call it a competitive market under asymmetric information. Mournlanders have the opportunity to know what is nerfed and what is buffed before the rest of the playerbase.
My understanding, purely from 404error's announcement and my own intuition, is that Mournlands would be for testing things more on the macro level, rather than the micro: crafting systems, quest mechanics, new classes and races. That Foogol's Barsplitter has had its stats changed doesn't really necessitate a secretive society of testers wailing on a training dummy.


If your only control mechanisms are screening, trust, and the threat of losing access, then good luck with that.
How long has the Mournlands programme been operational? They seem to have been doing pretty well so far, from what I haven't been able to discern.

If, that is, Mournlands actually exists. :)

Terebinthia
11-05-2011, 08:33 AM
My understanding of Mournlands (from what 404error has said, I'm not in the programme) is that it's more like a focus group than anything. I would hope that there would be some structured events there and encouragement / incentivisation for group play - I know it's hard to get groups together on Lama with I would imagine a much higher population - which is tiny, at least in the UK timezone.

If it's a focus group which has the numbers and the opportunity to play together in ways that would be understandable to the general DDO community (for example, say they were playtesting druids, there would be sufficient people to, say solo cap / solo with a hireling, play in a zerging style TR team, play in a more "balanced" group in popular quests / even raids if possible) and it's a focus group that's actually listened to, it can only be a good thing.

Personally I hope it's got a wide community of people, with different playstyles, not just a few forum rats / 24/7 gamers :)

red_cardinal
11-05-2011, 08:37 AM
Lammania = Mournlands.

/rant on

That's the best way to do it. As Maj posted a few days ago - you can't pay volunteers.
Put beta releases on Lammania. Keep alpha for yourselves. :)

Also, I don't think that QA is better at finding bugs than some ardent DDO players. That's simply because how you guys respond to the community rants. If someone says, "Sniper shot breaks stealth", and you don't fix it in 2-3 updates, you're doing something wrong. If QA didn't spot that as a bug, then you're doing even lousier job.

How about the fact that many paths aren't done. They are right there - at the character creation screen and THIS game IS AN D&D MMORPG, which means that character building is the core of the game. So, if you have a 'cancer' at character creation for over 2 years, I don't think any Mournlands program will change anything.

You guys just don't see many things which are needed. Who cares about any stuck spot behind some shroom in STK if character paths on the character creating screen are undone. My guess is that you can't prioritize what's important in this game. Sure, there will always be bugs and everything can't be fixed and new content must be created, but for gameplay crucial stuff that you turn your backs on - that ain't the right way.

You know why Wow has such a large player base? One of the reasons is that their game is polished. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have bugs, just that they don't release broken stuff. You do! Even if they have some flaws in class design, they fix it as they do listen to community rants and they do play classes they design. You don't!

Take cleric warpriest prestige. Does it exist? No! Is there an entry at character creation screen?! Yes! How does one build a warpriest cleric if path is all about selecting junk feats and there are no relevant enhancements to make it viable? I don't know!

Also, writing 101 manuals for character customization is advanced stuff. That shows the problem to be even more obvious. If a new player wants to be a Warpriest of Syberis, then his spells and his melee damage should work for him as well as AC, if he's wearing heavy plate and shield. And for that, a correct feats must be taken automatically so he doesn't have to bother. And that automation is PATH. And PATH should be good and tested throughout the content from level 1-20. And that can be done on Lammania.

If prestiges were promissed in 2008, why aren't they done by now? There's only one racial prestige, and that's elven AA. Is that because you can't balance it? Do you fear that game will be beaten to easily? Do you have to many variables to include in your number crunching models? What gives?!

/rant off

daddio42
11-05-2011, 08:52 AM
Turbine made Mournlands because the players in Lammania weren't
being honest about their opinions or their opinions were too bias.

<snip>



FYI, Mournlands has been around longer than Lammania.

Natashaelle
11-05-2011, 09:28 AM
Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.

Over 9000 Post Factor !!!

ZOMG !!!

Xionanx
11-05-2011, 09:40 AM
Many players have applied to the Mournlands preview program, but none have ever said they were in the program. Many players say that it doesn’t exist on those facts alone. Well, I assure you that it does exist, but because Mournlanders past and present are not allowed to reveal who they are, it is difficult to prove.

Many of them are guild members, forum friends, silent soloers or in-game idols, and they are encouraged to participate in both the live community and the Mournlands community. They do this so they do not lose touch with what brought them to Mournlands in the first place, while still bringing a “useable” set of feedback. Today, we will go over what the preview program is, why it is secret, and how to get into it.

Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.

The Mournlands Preview Server and its players are shrouded in secret in mystery for many reasons. One reason is to keep them from being pressured into revealing information before it is ready to be released. Another is to allow them to actually continue their DDO lives without the Mournlands program changing how the rest of the community views them. It would be difficult to look at someone who is marked as a Mournlander and not want to know what the future holds. So for the safety of their own entertainment, the Mournlanders are kept hidden.

In addition, much of what finds its way onto Mournlands is not finished, still in development, and simply not ready to see the light of the world yet. As such, the Mournlands Preview Program has a gated access, which might be one of the most well known aspects of it. Operated by the QA department, this process exists in order to choose those who would give the sort of feedback that is desired for development. Applicants are reviewed with a variety of qualities in mind. Posting history, quality of application, infraction/ban history, need of player type, and referral are some of the many different ways that each applicant is reviewed. One of the highest priorities is previous posting history. Knowing what sort of feedback has been given before is a good indication of what feedback will be given in the future. However, don’t let a low posting count deter you from applying! Having a good explanation as to why you do not post often, or even at all, can and will be accepted just as much as a post count over 9000.

In the end, having an opinion and a reason behind that opinion is the strongest thing that can be used to get access to the Mournlands Preview Program.

So the next time you hear someone say that the Mournlands Preview Server is a myth… You can tell them the truth. Yes. It does exist but only the acceptance email will ever prove that fact and by then, it’s too late.

I call BS on this. I don't care how good you "Screen" people, someone at some point in time WOULD have broken your NDA and revealed a screenshot or some tidbit of info. Its just what people do.:rolleyes: The only way to keep a "beta" private like that is to not allow the players private access to anything, and require them to play at a physical location you control and then to search them before they leave your testing facility.

So either your trolling just to be a ****** like most of us think the mournlands preview program is in the first place, a troll.

or your only letting in people who live near your facility so you can control access to it, which would explain why we keep getting poorly balanced updates and nerfs on things that dont need nerfing. IE. You have TOO SMALL of a tester base WHO DONT REFLECT THE ACTUAL MAKEUP OF YOUR COMMUNITY OF PLAYERS.

Seriously, apple cant even keep people from taking photos of their top secret in house projects and leaking them, and you expect us to believe that after roughly 2 years of its supposed existence, NO ONE HAS LEAKED ANY INFO ABOUT IT...:rolleyes:

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-05-2011, 10:12 AM
The worst games released tend to keep their NDA's right up to release. The earlier a company drops their NDA, the better the game usually is.
You ask why this is?
Simple reason, bad publicity hurts sales/revenue. Alot of times these companies know their game is a pile of ****.

The most successful companies only care about negative feedback. sorry but this is true.

There is negative constructive feedback, Then there is raging for no reason other than the raging. I agree with the first, and I ignore the second, because it usually has nothing to do with the game, and is some emotional response to something else. There is less of the second on ML. Sometimes digging through that -although better lately-out here is soul sucking for a dev. We need Dev's happy and motivated, not bummed out and angry.


Name one other successful major mmo that does this.-
City of Heroes. WoW. I can name non-MMO's too- Valve for all their games.

I disagree with Shade, ML has been very helpful. Until i can get the powers that be agreeing on a public test shard this is how it is.


I don't care how good you "Screen" people, someone at some point in time WOULD have broken your NDA and revealed a screenshot or some tidbit of info. Its just what people do.
Yes people have broken the NDA, and people have been punished. Look who our owners are now. The biggest owners of intellectual property on the planet. They take information leaks crazy serious. If you don't think you can keep a secret, don't apply.


What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?
Those people get kicked out.


Also, I don't think that QA is better at finding bugs than some ardent DDO players. That's simply because how you guys respond to the community rants. If someone says, "Sniper shot breaks stealth", and you don't fix it in 2-3 updates, you're doing something wrong. If QA didn't spot that as a bug, then you're doing even lousier job.
It is not that we don't know about it or 'spot' it, well, go read my blog. The why on bugs like this is all there, and I don't want to re-type it.

Yokido
11-05-2011, 10:12 AM
FYI, Mournlands has been around longer than Lammania.

Then I correct myself, they currently -use- Mournlands because of Lammania's deficiencies.
Still not quite sure if Mourn came first or after, but that's irrelevant.

Scraap
11-05-2011, 10:33 AM
Some people seem to think that the Mournlands Preview Server is just : “some private test server”, but in truth, the Mournlands Preview Server exists to look at new content and systems in order to help make things more fun, balanced, and playable. The QA and Dev teams will occasionally be found in groups with the players on Mournlands. They go there not to test, but to learn more about the possible strategies in a new quest from the player’s perspective. Sure, bugs are found and fixed in the process, but the core purpose is not that, and they are not a requirement of the Mournlanders.

So how often are they asked why they didn't use an alternative strategy, and what tools would be needed to make that a valid one?

Muldamai
11-05-2011, 10:55 AM
standard? what??

Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.

As mentioned above, WoW, Rift, heck, virtually every MMO since 2008 has this. One case where it wasn't done right was Vanguard, full of fanbois (guilds looking for that advantage, never reporting exploits), and leaks, was released a stinking pile of unplayable goo (the release is another story, though).

By the time a game is killing their NDAs, it is far beyond what is being referenced in this thread. You answer your own question by stating "tons of closed beta...", again far beyond what a ML program is.

Lets just take, for example, the new WoW, expansion. What content you see there would be out of a ML level testing level, for the most part. The concepts, designs, and systems have been decided upon and are being worked on. Only if some grand fundamental flaw is found that everyone overlooked would any of the info released be modified.


Mournlands testing would not be for everyone. It has to be material you love, you have to repeat processes ad nauseum in order to get them right, and the ability to be objective is paramount (not to mention communicating clearly).

Zenako
11-05-2011, 11:00 AM
Then I correct myself, they currently -use- Mournlands because of Lammania's deficiencies.
Still not quite sure if Mourn came first or after, but that's irrelevant.

Mournlands has been around a long time. Before Lammania there was another preview server called Risia. Risia went out in an ultimate blaze of glory before F2P went live. (It was awesome and a darn good reason to have had the Risia client ready to go back then (not to mention you would get extra starting TP for playing there for use on Live as a bonus incentive.)

Shade
11-05-2011, 11:18 AM
WoW.
Citation please. Link me to information about said server.


I can name non-MMO's too- Valve for all their games.
Again citation. I know of zero valve games that do this. They certainly do not advertise if they do so, im a huge fan of many of their games and would know about this, not so much for WoW, but for a couple valve games ive been following for years: TF2, CS.. I would know, I'm 100% positive they NOTHING like mournlands.

I know for a fact both WoW and most the big valve games (CS, TF2) have PUBLIC OPEN test version and servers unlike DDO. They also have bug report forums and read every report. Thats the major difference. Open, transparent QA that is very clearly reading and responding to a lot on dedicated bug report forums, they have great QA. How frequently TF2 gets updates and few bugs it has is awesome.

If they also have a hidden un-advertised closed one, that is a good thing. And thats absolutely not the same thing.

Saying
"We have this great preview server, we keep talking about it.. and no you can't join, and no we have no test server." is a lot different then saying nothing, advertising a open public test server and having a hidden one out of sight for earlier stuff.

red_cardinal
11-05-2011, 11:37 AM
It is not that we don't know about it or 'spot' it, well, go read my blog. The why on bugs like this is all there, and I don't want to re-type it.

Ok. I've read your blog. That's not the point.
The point is that you guys don't finish things. Forget what I said about Sniper shot breaking stealth. That's minor.
Really, it is. But nonexisting Deepwood sniper II and III is hardly a bug. That's a design flaw.

I don't want to compare prestiges to Wow talent trees because it makes no sense. But, in a way - wow talent trees are more complicated, they give more options than your prestiges. What would Wow players say if Blizzard would roll out a class with 1.5 talent trees done? :P

See, that's my issue with this game. I can't stand that you blindly ignore the fact that things are half way done or not done at all!!!
All you say - we know about it. It's on our known issues list. Who cares if it's on the list for 2-3 years and nobody does anything about it!!!!
So, it all comes down to that your owners, WB, don't give you money because they don't think it's a game which can compete on MMORPG market and which doesn't deserve much attention.
Maybe they're blind/stupid!

There are several reasons for this:
1) you roll out a German speaking server which is based in US and is empty - nobody speaks German - all speak english. You lost partners in Europe and now your global service is US based which causes increased latency for players from Europe/Asia, whatever.
2) bad localization - you probably have 1-2 persons which can translate strings in English into German and French - that would be Tolero. Not that she's bad, it's that you lack money to properly translate - also the GM speech should be translated.
3) very few new graphics models - reusing old models with a simple new texture and name change. I'm not saying don't reuse, it's just way to much of it.
4) making promises which you don't fulfill - prestiges announced in 2008, Druids :P,

I don't expect you to reply on this. Send Fernando to WB with a requirement of 10 mil $ for advancement of this game. Then fix bugs, revamp classes and launch servers in Europe and Asia and revive this game to what it needs to be. :P (never gonna happen, btw.)

Xionanx
11-05-2011, 11:49 AM
Really I think the above posters hit the nail on the head. DDO is a dieing game. Its old, its using an outdated engine, and its competing in a notoriously fickle market where "the next big mmo" is always just around the corner.

However, the second part about that is that a LARGE portion of the players who are playing DDO today are the same players who were playing it when it first came out. At least we seem to be the most vocal on the forums. I find it hard to believe that fixing bugs and issues that have been plaguing your long term subscribers takes a backseat. That keeping promises made YEARS ago are not a priority.

Take a GOOD HARD LOOK AT FFXIV and what happens when developers ignore the PLEAS of the players. Then look at that nice new ROADMAP they published about their plans and what they intend to do to fix the game. As much of a fail as the launch of FFXIV was -

TURBINE COULD LEARN A LOT FROM HOW SQUARE IS RESPONDING

Seriously, give us a nice detailed roadmap that shows that you are at least AWARE of these issues players have, and that you have some kind of "Plan" in place to take care of them.

Mournlands is a joke! Players ***** on these servers not because they hate DDO and want to see it ruined, they ***** because they LOVE DDO and WANT TO SEE IT IMPROVED. I think you as devs have lost touch with that.

Urist
11-05-2011, 11:57 AM
If they also have a hidden un-advertised closed one, that is a good thing. And thats absolutely not the same thing.
It seems to me that Mournlands is absolutely this same thing. The only difference is that Mournlands is advertised; which affects its intended function not one iota, and makes it one step more open than Valve or Blizzard, from what you say.

What you're apparently asking for - a public test server - is exactly what MajMalph has said, multiple times, that he wants, but can't get authorisation for.

mystafyi
11-05-2011, 08:09 PM
I wonder if it would be possible to see the same sort of pattern with expensive desert scrolls...
I am not on mournlands, but heard about scroll changes many many months ago.

gamers are a funny breed, almost impossible to keep secrets for long. If the mournlands folks are gamers then there will be leaks, but they will find major balancing issues and bugs. If they populate mournlands with casual gamers(that will keep secrets), then few balancing issues or bugs will be found.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Citation please. Link me to information about said server.


Again citation. I know of zero valve games that do this. They certainly do not advertise if they do so, im a huge fan of many of their games and would know about this, not so much for WoW, but for a couple valve games ive been following for years: TF2, CS.. I would know, I'm 100% positive they NOTHING like mournlands.

I know for a fact both WoW and most the big valve games (CS, TF2) have PUBLIC OPEN test version and servers unlike DDO. They also have bug report forums and read every report. Thats the major difference. Open, transparent QA that is very clearly reading and responding to a lot on dedicated bug report forums, they have great QA. How frequently TF2 gets updates and few bugs it has is awesome.

If they also have a hidden un-advertised closed one, that is a good thing. And thats absolutely not the same thing.

I'm ok with Bringing ML to the forefront right now...Keeping it a secret when everyone already knew is just...stupid. The cat is already out of the bag, why pretend?
Maybe we will start another server in the future. Maybe we already have.

Saying
"We have this great preview server, we keep talking about it.. and no you can't join, and no we have no test server." is a lot different then saying nothing, advertising a open public test server and having a hidden one out of sight for earlier stuff.

Fight club Shade. I know employees at both places. they do private betas. I've been in them.
Keeping ML secret at this point when everyone already knows about it is..well, stupid. Why pretend?
Maybe we will do another super secret in the future. Maybe we already have one.

Produktion_Malphunktion
11-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Really I think the above posters hit the nail on the head. DDO is a dieing game. Its old, its using an outdated engine, and its competing in a notoriously fickle market where "the next big mmo" is always just around the corner.

However, the second part about that is that a LARGE portion of the players who are playing DDO today are the same players who were playing it when it first came out. At least we seem to be the most vocal on the forums. I find it hard to believe that fixing bugs and issues that have been plaguing your long term subscribers takes a backseat. That keeping promises made YEARS ago are not a priority.

Take a GOOD HARD LOOK AT FFXIV and what happens when developers ignore the PLEAS of the players. Then look at that nice new ROADMAP they published about their plans and what they intend to do to fix the game. As much of a fail as the launch of FFXIV was -

TURBINE COULD LEARN A LOT FROM HOW SQUARE IS RESPONDING

Seriously, give us a nice detailed roadmap that shows that you are at least AWARE of these issues players have, and that you have some kind of "Plan" in place to take care of them.

Mournlands is a joke! Players ***** on these servers not because they hate DDO and want to see it ruined, they ***** because they LOVE DDO and WANT TO SEE IT IMPROVED. I think you as devs have lost touch with that.

Lets take these one at a time.
Death: I've been hearing this about DDO for 4 years. I bet the quarterly thread of our doom is out there right now..
Let me look down the hall at that other dead game Acheron's Call...or right they have an update next week too.
Launch/old timers a majority: not true.
Roadmap- never going to happen. That is a last ditch effort to save their game from oblivion. We are not anywhere near desperation.
Devs out of touch: Right. That is it. There is this funny movie with Alicia Silverstone you should watch.

mystafyi
11-05-2011, 10:06 PM
Fight club Shade. I know employees at both places. they do private betas. I've been in them.

for new releases, private alpha and beta's before open beta is common. for updates, private beta's without having public beta's and bug forums is uncommon.(yes i know this isnt your fault)

DDO doesnt even have a working bug reporting function! previously bug reports never were entered into the system or were outright deleted. Now the whole system is bugged for months. For gods sake fix this and the datdefrag util that worked till someone at turbine broke it.

hirelings, datdefrag, bug reporting function, client memory leak, ladders, quicken metafeat toggle, event lag, gear swap lag(umd lag)... please work on these.

knightgf
11-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Roadmap- never going to happen. That is a last ditch effort to save their game from oblivion. We are not anywhere near desperation.


But admit it Maj...you are CLOSE to using a roadmap. Not quite there, but close. Think of the situation as this: Some invisible force with broken handwraps is pushing you to a endless chasm. Unless you react and possibly counter this force, you'll either have to use everything you got(Specifically the roadmap) to have a chance or fall right into that chasm. DDO came close once to falling into that chasm, and that was when the game was under the name of 'stormreach'.

Angelus_dead
11-06-2011, 12:35 AM
Roadmap- never going to happen. That is a last ditch effort to save their game from oblivion. We are not anywhere near desperation.
Sure, no "roadmaps".... symbol of desperation. That's fine.

But there are ways to publish more concrete information to the users without going into map-like detail, and without the game having been in desperation. Consider this article from Warcraft designers (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/205262/dev-watercooler-the-great-item-squish-or-not-of-pandaria). They're talking about a nuanced game design concern that might not even become a change, but it's still a useful and productive communication. It demonstrates the competence and awareness of the designers, and gives players an opportunity to provide input (while there's still time to act on it).

DDO could stand to have somethings like that published... the designer diaries of U11 and U12 were orders of magnitude less meaningful than that, concerned mostly with superficial choices or jokey ancedotes. For example, for a difficult topic the DDO devs could talk on "Iron Defenders: Useful enough?"... or for an easier subject (because it matters less) they could try "Harm spell and divine DPS".

Havok.cry
11-06-2011, 01:01 AM
Has anyone said: DDDDdddooooOOOOOOoooOOOooOOOOMMmmmm!!!!!!!!1!!!!11 !!!!!one!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh wait I was busy having fun killing kobolds, nevermind.

Targonis
11-06-2011, 03:04 AM
What so many people don't seem to understand is that for DDO, new content is not about releasing 30 new adventures that are boring and just another dungeon that looks like all the others out there already. Every time you see new content in DDO, isn't it usually fairly different from what has already been in the game in terms of dungeon/adventure layout? New game mechanics are STILL being added after all this time, and that is NOT the sign of a game that is going to die.

Now, when you start seeing more new adventures that look too much like older adventures, THEN you can start to spout your talk about "Doom!", but until then, DDO is still progressing and evolving in a positive way.

Now, I do feel that DDO could use a bunch of new quests that re-visit old areas in the same way Hiding in Plain Sight did. Go back, look at old adventures that COULD have a second part to them, and that could allow for some "10 new adventures" in the new release releases. I am not saying that this should be common, but I, and probably others, would probably find it fun to see more continuity. The whole way that the old marketplace tent was removed from the game for example was beautifully done.

FranOhmsford
11-06-2011, 06:09 AM
Taken from OP:

QUOTE: "Knowing what sort of feedback has been given before is a good indication of what feedback will be given in the future" UNQUOTE

No dissenting voices eh?


Suggestions:

1. Add Lamannia to the ingame servers {Like Wayfinder}. You'll get far more people testing for bugs.
2. Sort out the Bug reporting issues {This is not a known bug is hardly an answer people want to see}.
3. Let GMs give more detailed explanations to people reporting bugs.
4. I've not bug reported them in the past but I'll mention them here - Ghost of a Chance in 3 Barrel has a crossroads that causes massive lag spikes, Dryden's Tomb causes insane lag throughout the quest {No problems with the rest of Catacombs}.

Oh! And please please please give us Kobolds as a playable race.

Yark!

Hendrik
11-06-2011, 07:26 AM
Turbine made Mournlands because the players in Lammania weren't
being honest about their opinions or their opinions were too bias.

It's been seen on multiple accounts that the preview server does
not give a good enough idea of what to expect resistance against,
one of the bigger examples would be the global cooldowns(which scared
a good deal of the player base away from the game due to the
inability to stare at consistently flickering lights, borderline epileptics
who were previously able to cope with the light changes of the game).

The reason selective membership is probably being activated is
because they want people who aren't bias towards the game,
people who notice changes, and people to reveal their gaming
mind-set.

It probably isn't that everyone on Lammania testing lacks
the right mind-set, it's probably that most of them don't,
and weeding through it is a financial setback.

Oh and Turbine, +1

Mournlands was first and Llama followed, so, wanna try again?

Hendrik
11-06-2011, 07:28 AM
Some players may believe that the secretive aspect of Mournlands does more harm than good. Ultimately, the question they want answered is: What do you do to prevent mournlanders from having a competitive advantage in the live game?

In economics we call it a competitive market under asymmetric information. Mournlanders have the opportunity to know what is nerfed and what is buffed before the rest of the playerbase. They may have known: (a) to trade their rare desert scrolls early, (b) which items would be upgraded and how (i.e. to collect raid loot that they would have otherwise given away or traded), (c) to focus on one character early because TR was coming, (d) not to build a character around mithral full plate + evasion before the nerf, (e) things that I cannot talk about (tavern, necropolis, boots, runes, etc.), (f) Many more examples (i.e. trade WoPs before the nerf). Other players can add to the list if they wish, but you get the idea.

How do you police it? What incentives or disincentives are there? Information from previous incarnations of Mournlands has been leaked before and has given players and guilds a tremendous advantage in the live game.

As a competitive gamer who doesn't play DDO anymore but still checks up on the game, convince me that the secrecy and exclusivity behind Mournlands does not place non-mournlanders at a massive competitive disadvantage.

You can't monitor their trading habits because they can post in the trade forums and use the auction house with a separate account. You can't police what information they disclose because they can use vent/skype/teamspeak, external forums, etc.

If your only control mechanisms are screening, trust, and the threat of losing access, then good luck with that.

You can say the same exact thing about Llama.

Silverleafeon
11-06-2011, 07:58 AM
Death: I've been hearing this about DDO for 4 years. I bet the quarterly thread of our doom is out there right now...

I remember opening the red box and pulling out the crayon to color in my dice.
I volunteered beside a WotC employee who recalled using the pieces of paper given in place of dice.
I learned a lot from that man and his partners, he still works for WotC.

This is the only MMO I have ever played.

Battlehawke
11-06-2011, 08:14 AM
Every game has "testers" to some degree. It looks like this is a way for Turbine to not pay people, while allowing some players to help make the game better. The question is "do they actually listen to what the players say" I personally would find it frustrating to have my characters and loot "erased" every few days, and much like Lamania, where the Devs have their own agendas, very little is "heard" from the players by the Devs or they have selective hearing and hear what fits their agenda. ....still a great game..

gloopygloop
11-06-2011, 09:20 AM
Fight club Shade. I know employees at both places. they do private betas. I've been in them.
Keeping ML secret at this point when everyone already knows about it is..well, stupid. Why pretend?
Maybe we will do another super secret in the future. Maybe we already have one.


It won't help, Maj. Any time someone from Turbine says that Shade is wrong, he just claims that they're lying.

Cordovan
11-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Feedback and comment is fine, insults and personal attacks are not. Let's keep this discussion civil, please.

Habreno
11-06-2011, 10:09 AM
Technical question here:

The Minimum Age of 18 is for the part of having to sign a contract, I assume? Or is there another reason for this?

Memnir
11-06-2011, 10:18 AM
After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of seeing Llamania feedback just go to waste, and even more seeing said feedback tagged as a "known issue" when brought up on Llama's forums and still have the problem linger for months more - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of slapping my forehead and wondering how did Problem/Bug-X make it past ML testers - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.



I'm sorry, but I just do not have any kind of conviction that the ML server does a **** thing. Especially after it being labeled another "Preview Server" in 404's OP. I see it as nothing but a behind-the-velvet-rope version of Llama. A members-only club, that has little direct impact on the game itself. Yeah, I'm probably wrong about a lot of that - but it's the honest impression I've gotten of ML since the game launched. I don't know if I'm wrong or not because I cannot know. A necessary side-effect of the NDA. All I can go by is the indirect evaluation I've been able to form over the years - and that evaluation is that ML is an empty effort.

All I know is that my faith in ML is nill. This thread has done nothing to change that opinion. So... why expend my valuable free time in what I very much believe would just be wasted time? And don't get me wrong - I've beta tested for many games. I started DDO as a beta tester. I've tested RTSs, MMOs, FPSs, and a long list of titles for Microsoft (one of the benifits of living so close to their Redmond HQ). I like to test games, and have a good degree of experience doing so.
I do not like to waste my time, however.

Phemt81
11-06-2011, 03:23 PM
Technical question here:

The Minimum Age of 18 is for the part of having to sign a contract, I assume? Or is there another reason for this?

Cause if you break the Non Disclosure Agreement they will be able to sue your butt :D

protokon
11-06-2011, 06:26 PM
Citation please. Link me to information about said server.


Again citation. I know of zero valve games that do this. They certainly do not advertise if they do so, im a huge fan of many of their games and would know about this, not so much for WoW, but for a couple valve games ive been following for years: TF2, CS.. I would know, I'm 100% positive they NOTHING like mournlands.

I know for a fact both WoW and most the big valve games (CS, TF2) have PUBLIC OPEN test version and servers unlike DDO. They also have bug report forums and read every report. Thats the major difference. Open, transparent QA that is very clearly reading and responding to a lot on dedicated bug report forums, they have great QA. How frequently TF2 gets updates and few bugs it has is awesome.

If they also have a hidden un-advertised closed one, that is a good thing. And thats absolutely not the same thing.

Saying
"We have this great preview server, we keep talking about it.. and no you can't join, and no we have no test server." is a lot different then saying nothing, advertising a open public test server and having a hidden one out of sight for earlier stuff.


Shade I will have to agree with what you said in another thread here:


cant believe ppl are still debating this..

Give up. Devs word > yours.

Also have to agree with Memnir that with the magnitude of stuff that makes it through, it is extremely difficult for us to have faith in the ML server. Although, on the other side we have no idea how many bugs were stopped on that server due to the testers on it, so we can't condemn it entirely for lack of details.

Just can't condone it either, for the exact same reason.

Vhlad
11-06-2011, 07:43 PM
You can say the same exact thing about Llama.

If someone said the same thing about Lamannia they would be wrong. Anyone who wants to access Lamannia can. Anyone who wants to read the Lamannia forums can. We do not have a competitive market under asymmetric information with Lamannia. We do, however, have it with mournlands: an exclusive private server where some players are able to get information that others cannot.

Vhlad
11-06-2011, 08:12 PM
After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of seeing Llamania feedback just go to waste, and even more seeing said feedback tagged as a "known issue" when brought up on Llama's forums and still have the problem linger for months more - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of slapping my forehead and wondering how did Problem/Bug-X make it past ML testers - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.



I'm sorry, but I just do not have any kind of conviction that the ML server does a **** thing. Especially after it being labeled another "Preview Server" in 404's OP. I see it as nothing but a behind-the-velvet-rope version of Llama. A members-only club, that has little direct impact on the game itself. Yeah, I'm probably wrong about a lot of that - but it's the honest impression I've gotten of ML since the game launched. I don't know if I'm wrong or not because I cannot know. A necessary side-effect of the NDA. All I can go by is the indirect evaluation I've been able to form over the years - and that evaluation is that ML is an empty effort.

All I know is that my faith in ML is nill. This thread has done nothing to change that opinion. So... why expend my valuable free time in what I very much believe would just be wasted time? And don't get me wrong - I've beta tested for many games. I started DDO as a beta tester. I've tested RTSs, MMOs, FPSs, and a long list of titles for Microsoft (one of the benifits of living so close to their Redmond HQ). I like to test games, and have a good degree of experience doing so.
I do not like to waste my time, however.

The WOP sell-off is a clear example of mournlanders using their privileged information to gain a real advantage in the live game. There are, however, more subtle abuses that most certainly occur. One simple example: choosing not to read a +3 or +4 tome because you know TR is coming.

I find it very frustrating that Turbine allows a group of players to have such a massive advantage with no trade-off. Keep testing exclusive if you want but asymmetric information wreaks too much havoc on the markets. If mournlands is to exist then the information from it should be public. At minimum, as soon as mournlanders find out about it, appoint someone to warn the rest of the playerbase about the market-relevant information: item nerfs/buffs, character nerfs/buffs, and game mechanic changes or additions. If the build or change is not final then warn us it might occur. The bottom line is that, in a multiplayer game where characters are stored on the company's servers and cheating is not allowed, there should be a level playing field.

mystafyi
11-06-2011, 08:17 PM
After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened

There was also a sell off of some sands scrolls. wasnt so obvious since the most desired scrolls were so very rare to begin with, but it did happen.

If you pay attention to sales of other rare scrolls from different packs in the present/future, you will see upcoming changes.

404error
11-06-2011, 08:19 PM
So the three big issues that I can comment on are-
1) Bug slip ups from MLer's and how do they happen?
2) We aren't listened to by developers and our feedback is not acted upon for both Mourlands and Lamannia.
3) How do we know if Mournlanders are not using the program to benefit themselves on live.

To answer point 1 in a very direct manner is there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime. Not everything will be addressed at that moment or we are curently focusing on other tasks that we don't have time to make soon to be released content as perfect as it should be. DDO like other MMO's is a living game and will always change and evolve. Does any of this mean we don't care, no we care deeply and if days came with more time we would fix more. Many members of both Dev and QA put in more hours than they should to try to make the game as fun and as good as it can be for every launch and we take it personally when we miss something.

Myself and Kookie follow up with Dev's on a nearly daily basis to see what is being done on certain issues. The overall feedback is accounted for and reviewed regularly and we present that to the producers and the developers of their dungeons.

The other point of that you aren't listened to by Turbine is in my opinion just wrong to a point. The Mournlands program as a whole has been invaluable at making dungeons and new character advancement options far more fun for players overall. On a whole I have seen less complaints on how fun everything is in the past year and that leads me to believe that what is being done by the players that have applied and are representing you are doing what we hoped for. That says to me that it is working on what it is intended to do. We listen and communicate as much as we have time for and pass along all valuable feedback to the appropriate developer.

The final point is probably the one taken most seriously in the program from each program director that I have had the pleasure to talk to. The second I know a participant is leaking information or using information to their advantage they are removed from the program and possible live account ramifications may go into effect depending on the offense. There have been leaks and abuse in Mournlands previously and it may happen again but I take big stride in making sure these thing a don't happen and the community takes big strides in policing itself on these issues because of they are as invested in making DDO better along with some of you if not more.

~404error~

Gkar
11-06-2011, 08:23 PM
Ok, if you can't tell us who, tell us how many non Turbine staff play on ML. It would be helpful to know if it 2 or 2000.

mystafyi
11-06-2011, 08:29 PM
Two answer point 1 in a very direct manner is there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

Could you please focus on getting the bug reporting function working again? Many folks see this as further 'proof' that turbine doesnt care about bugs at all. Not saying this is true, but perception is a MF'er.

While yer at it, please focus on lag issues, hireling AI, memory leak problem, quicken metafeat bug, arti dogs staying in world after owner is gone, datdefrag util that used to work till ya'll disabled it, and finally the umd lag/swapping items lag bug.

Scraap
11-06-2011, 08:34 PM
The other point of that you aren't listened to by Turbine is in my opinion just wrong to a point. The Mournlands program as a whole has been invaluable at making dungeons and new character advancement options far more fun for players overall. On a whole I have seen less complaints on how fun everything is in the past year and that leads me to believe that what is being done by the players that have applied and are representing you are doing what we hoped for. That says to me that it is working on what it is intended to do. We listen and communicate as much as we have time for and pass along all valuable feedback to the appropriate developer.

Hate to tell you, but that has more to do with your 'communications team' slapping a muzzle on dissension instead of communicating what is going on until it is far to late to do a thing about it, combined with the simple fact that it's become quite clear that many of us are wasting our breath trying to get anything done to break things out of the same old min/max box unless it means you can somehow charge us for it.

And yeah, I could be more politically correct about it, but subtle obviously doesn't work either.

Vhlad
11-06-2011, 08:59 PM
The final point is probably the one taken most seriously in the program from each program director that I have had the pleasure to talk to. The second I know a participant is leaking information or using information to their advantage they are removed from the program and possible live account ramifications may go into effect depending on the offense. There have been leaks and abuse in Mournlands previously and it may happen again but I take big stride in making sure these thing a don't happen and the community takes big strides in policing itself on these issues because of they are as invested in making DDO better along with some of you if not more.

~404error~

If I was naive and optimistic enough to think that that was sufficient then I would probably live a happier and more care-free life. But I'm not. I'm a cynical old fart.

The fact is, mournlanders WILL use the information they gain to advance their characters on the live server. Do you really believe a mournlander who knows TR is coming and wants to TR is going to read the +4 tome that they just pulled on a live server? Or that a mournlander who wants a scroll of the marilith chain is going to trade 30 red devil scales for it when they know in a few months they can get one for any 3 scrolls?

Choosing not to do something is much more subtle and almost impossible for you to know about or police.

Also almost impossible for you to know about or police is when mournlander uses a second account (under a different name/credit card), or talks to friends using an external chat program.

The only way to stop participants from benefiting from asymmetric information is to remove the asymmetry: As soon as mournlanders find out about a change or potential change that could influence trades or character builds, tell the rest of the playerbase about it. Or make the Mournlands forums (and just the forums) accessible to VIPs.

Memnir
11-06-2011, 09:04 PM
-many points in a long post-
Probably all true, 404.
But the problem is, at least for me personally, I can only go by what I see and what I know. And, that is simply that ML has left a very bad impression with me. When I look at the totality of my DDO experience, I don't have a good impression of or put an iota of stock in the ML program as a whole.

Can I say I speak from experience - no, I cannot. All of what you say may be utterly the truth. But... my feelings and opinions remain the same none the less. I have literally years worth of sour impressions of ML.

And sadly, a few posts by y'all isn't going to erase those impressions. It's not that I don't like or trust you, Maj, or the rest of the Dev team. I do. I've met many of y'all in person at PAX over the years, and gotten to know many more of you here on the forums. I've not met one Turbine person I've not enjoyed passing time with. But, I cannot take what is said on face value. If you want my impressions to change - it'll take time and visible evidence that things have either changed or that I was wrong in the first place. And, I really don't think what I posted was wrong.

That ML has had a long string of abuses, and my mention of the WoP sell-off was only the most egregious one I can think of - there have been more, is simply a fact. Bugs that should have been found and squashed on ML, at least in a good number of players' opinions anyways, were not. And, feedback on Llama goes unfixed that I have to wonder if the same isn't true on ML... again, this is only by what I can see and go by. I know that Llama isn't strictly a "test server", it's a preview server. And by your OP here... so is ML, just a roped off one. So, what is to tell me that feedback on ML is taken any more seriously then the stuff that pops up on Llama? How do we know that feedback isn't just as ignored?


I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. I'm really not.
I am trying to be as honest as I can, and tell you the Devs why I think that ML is not an effective facet of DDO as y'all do. It's all about perception. And I don't perceive ML to be anything but a shell game.

Auran82
11-06-2011, 09:45 PM
Silence does not always mean that someone is happy with a decision, it just means they have lost the will/see no point in speaking up about it anymore.

The simple fact is, Lammania is a preview server, people need to remember that, we only see stuff on there when it is pretty much too late to change before release. But at the same time, we are asked to test things, give feedback and report bugs. Often the bugs are, to us, so obvious, that anyone who plays the game on a regular basis would encounter within 5 minutes during testing. Which leads me to ask, is this not being picked up internally? Is it not being picked up on ML and if so, who the hell do you have playing on there? Or is it being picked up on ML or being kept quiet because they can use it to their advantage on live? Or lastly, is it being picked up, but is not able to be fixed now, but is also not able to be put onto any kind of known bugs database we can see?

The UI was a pretty good example of a change that was put through, was previewed, nearly everyone hated it and there appeared to be surprise from Turbine that this was the case. If so, it's pretty clear that either everyone on ML is a 'yes man' or you simply have the wrong people on there.

SHOCK_and_AWE
11-06-2011, 09:49 PM
The UI was a pretty good example of a change that was put through, was previewed, nearly everyone hated it and there appeared to be surprise from Turbine that this was the case. If so, it's pretty clear that either everyone on ML is a 'yes man' or you simply have the wrong people on there.

This is indeed a rather ostentatious occurrence. The UI change went through ML and Lamma and all the way to Live. I'm glad it was ultimately changed to a much better format (superior to the original in my opinion), but it is still odd that the annoying aspects weren't fully recognized before release.

BOgre
11-06-2011, 09:51 PM
Maj posted in his thread that 404 would be asking for new applicants to the ML program. 404 posts this thread, which is about.... what exactly? There's no link to any ML application << now fixed, thanks 404>>, and well, I guess I don't get what this thread is supposed to BE. Other than to tell me that now Mournlands, as well as Lamma, is to be considered a Preview server and not a playtest/bughunt server.... Okay, consider me told. Wheee.

Myrddinman
11-06-2011, 10:03 PM
It's all about perception. And I don't perceive ML to be anything but a shell game.

So very true, and excellent point Memnir! I work as a Retail Manager and I can tell you perception is reality, for both customers and your employees. It's not always true and it's not always fair, but it is what it is ;)

Missing_Minds
11-06-2011, 10:12 PM
After seeing the massive sell-off of Wounding and Puncturing weapons that came well in advance of the live-server change to these weapons - before there was even an inkling that such a change was approaching, changes that people obviously had advance word on because otherwise such a sell-off would never have happened - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


So just how many MLers went on a massive spree of selling? How do you know it wasn't just one or two that told their friends which spread the word like wild fire? People that weren't under the NDA and so could talk without repercussions.

How do we know that something didn't happen to the MLers in general? The only one that knows for fact is 404 and those on ML.

Unlike some people, I would rather think that only a few won't follow NDA and may use it for their own personal gain. Which means unknown people who can't even defend themselves from slander due to the NDA are being attacked and essentially getting blamed for the "bad apple in the barrel."

Yeah, I do have a bit of rosey look on life but it sure beats being mean spirited and grumpy all the time.

404error
11-06-2011, 10:22 PM
Maj posted in his thread that 404 would be asking for new applicants to the ML program. 404 posts this thread, which is about.... what exactly? There's no link to any ML application, and well, I guess I don't get what this thread is supposed to BE. Other than to tell me that now Mournlands, as well as Lamma, is to be considered a Preview server and not a playtest/bughunt server.... Okay, consider me told. Wheee.

I edited the original post to include it.

I can understand your concern with "cheating" from the Mournlanders and there have been bans related to Mournlanders cheating the system and many did not expect it to happen. While I try to keep as many bad apples out of the pot it happens from time to time and honestly there is no better pressure than peer pressure to keep you on the straight and narrow. Also people that are probably going to cheat the system have come with a type of participation in the program that I have come to identify and they typically are only in it for one update cycle.

The original post was a PSA on how, why, and who should apply to Mournlands. If your every intention is to come and bug things you are better off applying to our QA department so you can actually track those issues you hate. Being one of the few players who have gone over to Turbine side and once you see how DDO is developed you get why process we have in place and developed are there and I felt more comfortable with the issues I saw.

Memnir
11-06-2011, 10:54 PM
So just how many MLers went on a massive spree of selling? How do you know it wasn't just one or two that told their friends which spread the word like wild fire? People that weren't under the NDA and so could talk without repercussions.I'm not saying it was all ML folks who did the selling off at various times - and I'm assuming that they did tell their friends. Which makes it not one bit better.

People had the knowledge, and they profited from it. Knowledge that the rest of the population did not have, thus making the profit possible. Mournlands is not a contained unit. It might not leak like the Titanic - but it's far from watertight. And any time that this occurs, it's a huge breach of what ML is touted to be. The fact that it's happened several times now is... troubling. To me at least.

Were they caught and punished - I have no way of knowing. But, since it's happened multiple times, mysterious price-drops and sell-offs of things that turn out to be changing in the near future, provides me with enough incidental evidence to have doubts about the whole ML program and how it polices itself. Do I think every ML previewer is a scheming and malicious creep who is only looking to further their material gain on the live servers? No. But I do think there is a small percentage among their number who are. You can say that's human nature - but since this is an invite-only server with an application process and supposed standards in place to govern those invites, I have to wonder how effective those are when it keeps happening.


Anyways - I'll stop raining on the ML parade. I've said my piece, and I think I've said it well enough that my position is clear. If I'm wrong, I'll be more then happy to say so when there is enough reason for me to do so. If there is enough reason for me to do so. It's taken a long time for me to get so cynical and jaded about Turbines Preview process (not gonna call it testing if they won't), and it'll take a long time for me to repair that opinion.

Phemt81
11-06-2011, 11:02 PM
there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

Can i say: quote of the year? :D

herzkos
11-06-2011, 11:13 PM
404, thanks for taking the time and effort to make your thread and follow up so much with the posters:)

I once thought about applying for ML but decided not to due to my enjoyment of the live servers.
I don't get enough time to play what I'm paying for much less spend time on Lamm or ML.

Good luck to the testers and thanks for all that you do for us (lazy non testers who complain
about the lack of your testing ) :).

altrocks
11-06-2011, 11:14 PM
This is indeed a rather ostentatious occurrence. The UI change went through ML and Lamma and all the way to Live. I'm glad it was ultimately changed to a much better format (superior to the original in my opinion), but it is still odd that the annoying aspects weren't fully recognized before release.

For the record, if you look at the Lamma forums, you will find that it was so riddled with bugs during the preview that we couldn't actually get a good idea of how it would work. I literally sat in a raid group for 1 hour with people dropping, rejoining and reforming to try and figure out a work around for people not showing up in the party UI. Once it was fully implemented, everyone pretty much hated it. I do like how quickly Turbine reacted to that, though. The UI now is much, much better.

altrocks
11-06-2011, 11:27 PM
there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.


Can i say: quote of the year? :D

Eh, more like missing-the-point of the year. It's not about making it bug-free. It never has been. It's the fact that certain major bugs that effect game play in major ways have persisted for weeks/months/years, often go ignored and currently we have no official way of reporting them other than to post on the forums and hope a dev reads it.

- The Opportunist Feat not WAI was a well known bug (to the players) but was only picked up by the devs after the fort increase in U11, when it became game-breaking for rogue dps.

- Destruction and Improved Destruction were intentionally changed by the devs, mentioned in release notes quite clearly, and was not WAI from the moment they hit Lamma (and probably ML as well). It was tested, talked about, reported, acknowledged and promptly ignored.

- Handwraps. Need I say more?


Just a few examples of what the problem actually is. We don't really care if there's some bugs. We expect that. But we also expect bugs that effect the game playing experience to be addresses quickly for the same reasons that 404 says ML exists for. If you have a certain mechanic in place in the game that supposed to work a certain way and it doesn't, that's not fun. That's frustrating. If it's a known bug and it sits there for months with no word on the progress of fixing it or that it's even been acknowledged as a bug by the devs and QA, that's infuriating. And when the dev/QA response to people complaining about this state of afairs is what 404 put up there, that's just the end of the rope as far as I'm concerned.

I believe that the devs take bugs personally because they are the ones who coded them. I also believe it's more a matter of their own pride in their coding skills being injured than it is concern about the state of the game. Everyone feels bad when they mess something up. Not everyone cares about trying to make it right when they do.

Phemt81
11-06-2011, 11:46 PM
Eh, more like missing-the-point of the year.

Exactly, you are missing the point of the year, if you caught it you would have used this face in your post -->:D

And, i agree, not needing a perfectly bug free game (but WHO would complain about that? lol) but leaving things bugged while updating the game with more new content that spreads out even more bugs will not be the best solution to keep the game enjoyable.

But that's just a consumer's opinion :D

sephiroth1084
11-07-2011, 12:55 AM
I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of seeing Llamania feedback just go to waste, and even more seeing said feedback tagged as a "known issue" when brought up on Llama's forums and still have the problem linger for months more - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.


After years of slapping my forehead and wondering how did Problem/Bug-X make it past ML testers - I lost faith in the ML server, both as a practicality and as a philosophy.



I'm sorry, but I just do not have any kind of conviction that the ML server does a **** thing. Especially after it being labeled another "Preview Server" in 404's OP. I see it as nothing but a behind-the-velvet-rope version of Llama. A members-only club, that has little direct impact on the game itself. Yeah, I'm probably wrong about a lot of that - but it's the honest impression I've gotten of ML since the game launched. I don't know if I'm wrong or not because I cannot know. A necessary side-effect of the NDA. All I can go by is the indirect evaluation I've been able to form over the years - and that evaluation is that ML is an empty effort.

All I know is that my faith in ML is nill. This thread has done nothing to change that opinion. So... why expend my valuable free time in what I very much believe would just be wasted time? And don't get me wrong - I've beta tested for many games. I started DDO as a beta tester. I've tested RTSs, MMOs, FPSs, and a long list of titles for Microsoft (one of the benifits of living so close to their Redmond HQ). I like to test games, and have a good degree of experience doing so.
I do not like to waste my time, however.
Yup



To answer point 1 in a very direct manner is there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime. Not everything will be addressed at that moment or we are curently focusing on other tasks that we don't have time to make soon to be released content as perfect as it should be. DDO like other MMO's is a living game and will always change and evolve. Does any of this mean we don't care, no we care deeply and if days came with more time we would fix more. Many members of both Dev and QA put in more hours than they should to try to make the game as fun and as good as it can be for every launch and we take it personally when we miss something.

Myself and Kookie follow up with Dev's on a nearly daily basis to see what is being done on certain issues. The overall feedback is accounted for and reviewed regularly and we present that to the producers and the developers of their dungeons.

~404error~
The problem is in what we see. We (the players) see ourselves and others posting bug report after bug report, both on Live and Lama, and the results often end up as major bugs that continue to go unfixed for months despite being labeled as "Known Issues" or we get devs (lumping everyone in together here, devs, QA, community relations, etc...) who claim that they didn't know about problem X, had never seen a bug report for issue Y, which makes it appear as though we aren't being heard, or are being actively ignored.

You know why? Because we don't get any information from you guys about what's going on, whether you're looking to fix A, B and C in this way or that way. Instead, we get "fixes" to problems, that cause more problems, or that result in enormous backlash from the community, because the "fix" has incredibly undesirable consequences that would have become apparent in 2 seconds if we had been asked (off-hand items automatically moving to fill the main hand, for example).

Oh, except that, if there is a bug in the game that benefits players, it gets fixed 100 times faster than any that hurt us. Something makes a quest too easy, or someone too strong? Fixed in a patch or by the next update, but if the bug hurts us, such as by having objectives uncompleteable or items breaking or disappearing, that can stick around for months or years.

BOgre
11-07-2011, 01:48 AM
I guess my problem with both Lammania and Mournlands both being 'Preview' servers is this: Why? What is the point of previewing content that will be hitting the live servers unchanged in a couple weeks? That is, if the update is written, and passed, and will not be changed despite any bugs that are found, then why release it to Lammania and not straight to Live? You'll be getting the exact same feedback and you'll have to follow the exact same procedures for reporting, prioritizing, and fixing any bugs. If anything, the Lamma release is hindering you, besides the resources required to keep it running, by flooding you with unwanted bug reports.
And if Mournlands is simply your 'focus group' server, which is what I read you're telling me, then I'd think you need to take it off the radar completely. Populate it with non-DDOers if you want a fresh perspective, and a lower chance of leaks.
I think that both of those programs, lamma and ML, are energy better spent elsewhere. It seems to me that players are more concerned with bugs making it to live than they are with innovative new features. Which means we'd rather see you making use of us as bug hunters, in an open test-server, which Lamma COULD be and really should be, rather than whatever these two servers are doing now, which feels to us like a waste of time.

You're going to do what you're going to do, despite what I say here, and honestly I really do hope it works out for you. Anything to improve the game is fine with me... I'm just trying to get across to you that right now, as it stands, we feel like this is a waste. And since it's all secret and always will be, there's little way for you to prove to us that it isn't a waste. At least if ML or lamma WAS a bughunt server, and someone like Shade or whoever was to discover a bug, and you'd say 'Nice Catch!' and that bug would get squashed before release, well then we'd feel like we were getting somewhere, you know?

anyways, like i said, I hope you're getting what you need from these things, and I hope it helps you make the game better. But for as long as it continues to feel like a waste, I'm gonna have to just ignore it... sorry.

Astraghal
11-07-2011, 01:55 AM
I think Turbine have done a good job on DDO in the past year. When I started playing a year and a half ago, the game was way more dull and boring. I will often complain and take issue with class balance, because I enjoy playing melee and think they could be better implimented. But besides that I think that most of the content released in the last year has been great.

I really loved the Carnival/Fens/Droam/Chronoscope/Madness packs. I think it's really good that Turbine is overhauling some of the useless old loot too. I think the game has definately got a lot going for it now and there's no reason why it can't have a good future. Overall I am happy that there's been more positive things happening in the game of late than negative.

It's a good thing that Turbine has been engaging with the community a lot more lately too, I hope they keep that up. :)

Flavilandile
11-07-2011, 03:05 AM
Adding my two Euro-cents to the fight... :D

I'm more or less on the same path as Memnir.

While I appreciate the fact that Lammania and Mournlands exists. If their function is to be preview servers, then
actions should be taken on the feedback of said preview.
I'm not a Mournlander, and probably never will be, ( unless it becomes a real test server where we go to test things out and give a feedback both on how the thing tested works and how the tested thing is going to impact the game, and such feedback is acted upon. ) as it is just pointless right now. ( unless you think you can win the game... *shrug* )

I'm going to point to the latests recent failures of both servers : the UI revamps.
While I can't tell for Mournlands, but I hope it went through it, on Lammania, the feedback was clear on both the UI and the cooldown, it shouldn't go live. Sadly it went live, and for the UI, a crash patch/hotfix was created as it was evident that it was slowly killing the game ( everybody parking their healers ).

As long as things like that will happen, both Mournlands and Lammania will be seen as nothing more than servers where you can learn before the world at large things that will make you have a bigger one over the rest of the world ( whatever you consider bigger ), and not servers where we go, give our feedback and actually have an impact on the game.

red_cardinal
11-07-2011, 03:24 AM
If your every intention is to come and bug things you are better off applying to our QA department so you can actually track those issues you hate.

Note taken. I'll ping Maj -> NEW PRESTIGES, PLEASE!
Deepwood sniper!
Fix sniper shot!
New content - release Lammania on Lammania - a new adventure pack which is totally outdoors and focuses on rangers and druids. Yaay! (something like Redwillow's ruins).

Hendrik
11-07-2011, 07:13 AM
If someone said the same thing about Lamannia they would be wrong. Anyone who wants to access Lamannia can. Anyone who wants to read the Lamannia forums can. We do not have a competitive market under asymmetric information with Lamannia. We do, however, have it with mournlands: an exclusive private server where some players are able to get information that others cannot.

So, people don't hit up Llama, use free points, buy tons of Store pots, and go brute force the Raids to learn how to beat them, go back to live with that knowledge and beat the raids on day one within hours of launch?

Thx for the full on belly laugh man.

Zenako
11-07-2011, 08:27 AM
You're going to do what you're going to do, despite what I say here, and honestly I really do hope it works out for you. Anything to improve the game is fine with me... I'm just trying to get across to you that right now, as it stands, we feel like this is a waste. And since it's all secret and always will be, there's little way for you to prove to us that it isn't a waste. At least if ML or lamma WAS a bughunt server, and someone like Shade or whoever was to discover a bug, and you'd say 'Nice Catch!' and that bug would get squashed before release, well then we'd feel like we were getting somewhere, you know?


But if someone like Shade were actually on ML for example and found and located 200 bugs that all got fixed and removed from the game before it went live, the NDA he signed would also preclude him or anyone else from letting anyone but those on ML from knowing about it. The other 100 bugs that got thru to Lammaland and Live would be all that the rest of the gamers see and thus conclude that Shades effort were futile. (Just using him as an example, not sure anything he does is futile....)

So part of the conumdrum of a server like ML is that most of the good stuff is NEVER known about. The bugs that did get caught, the borked game play that never gets released. If you look at the timing of release of an update to Lammaland and it then going live, only the most major of game breaking bugs are likely to slow that release train from going live. The rest of the input is compiled and often shows up in the next update or hot fix or whatever they are calling it these days.

I recall that Major once mentioned the triage aspect of their job. The need to rack and stack all the problems and address them in the order that makes the OVERALL most sense for the game. Small annoyances, yah they should be fixed, but often they are way down the list on the stacking order, and often get ursurped by new more urgent issues. I run into this issue at work all the time. That document should be updated and typos fixed, but we have this other bunch of issues that threaten work stoppages. Hop on those first. Often times other new issues keep jumping to the head of the line, leaving those old longstanding low priority issues to simmer forever it seems.

mystafyi
11-07-2011, 10:22 AM
So, people don't hit up Llama, use free points, buy tons of Store pots, and go brute force the Raids to learn how to beat them, go back to live with that knowledge and beat the raids on day one within hours of launch?

Thx for the full on belly laugh man.

Its painfully obvious you didnt even read the post you quoted.

GoldyGopher
11-07-2011, 10:41 AM
As real life has interfered with my ability to respond in a timely manner this response might be a little rambling and is responding to a number of posts, I am not going to quote them all.

I think it is disappointing that neither 404 nor Maj have explained exactly what the Mournland Program actually is. They can correct me if I am wrong but as far as I can tell the Mournland Program is a private preview server in which the Turbine staff attempts to determine the “Fun Ratio” of the changes they have decided to make. If ML players find bugs that is a bonus as far as Turbine is concerned.
What the ML Program isn’t is just as important, it is not a program that directly influences the decisions on game design and system design any more than what already occurs on the forums. It is not full blown “beta test” of new systems nor is it a stress testing ground of shard or system performance.

That being said, what is the “Fun Ratio”? When Turbine is looking at potentially making a change it is previewed to the ML players and they get to have an input. Note that by the time it makes it to ML, dozens or hundreds of hours have already been spent on said change, so something very similar to what the previewed change is going to go live. ML players have input on the final change but not necessarily the change as a whole, if that make sense.

You talk about making ML players a secret and I laugh. I know about a dozen current and former ML players that have provide me with substantiated proof that they are ML players. Yes this means they have violated their NDA. I also now a good dozen more players that claim to be a part of the ML program, but I cannot say they have substantiated their claim. In many cases these players are looking for sounding boards to discuss whatever happens to be the topic du jure on the ML forum. Several of these ML players, IMHO, are attempting to do the right thing and be a conduit for the player base to the Devs.

In this is where in my view a problem arises. Many of those ML players are affected by “Groupthink”, which is a phenomenon in which people want harmony rather than conflict in a group decision. Those players who seem to be less affected by Groupthink are the ones that are more likely to be former ML program players. In a business world we call these people “yes men”. I find it interesting because of the ML players I know outside of ML and on the live servers many of players have similar characters, similar play styles, and similar opinions.

Beyond groupthink there are other problems with the ML program, the first which has been alluded to is too many ML players and their buddies are taking advantage of the information on ML that is not readily available. Allow me to explain;
I am a big watcher of the auction house, I used to for fun manipulate prices more because I could than any other reason. Now I am more of a watcher, it is funny to watch what is on the auction house and their current prices and what items are being run on. Before “Cannith Crafting” was announced or showed off on Lammania there was a huge run on low to mid range items, hummm. Or WoP sell off, or the sudden rise of WoE, or the number of scrolls for Marilth Chain suddenly available a couple of weeks before it is announced.
In addition just watch the LFMs, about a month ago there was an increase in the number of groups running Abbot Flagging Quests on two servers for sure. Not surprisingly after being released on Lammania there was a change to Abbot. Things that make you go Humm.
As I have said Real Life (finalizing my divorce) has precluded me from playing as much as I would like lately but given a few weeks I could at least give you a good idea of what is changing not exactly how.

The other problem with ML, as it is implemented it really is WAI, but the problem is players need a better pipeline to direct concerns in the game systems as the ML program isn’t that pipeline, as that is not ML program is for. What do I mean by this? Well rather there is a problem with how XP (loot and Favor to a smaller) is awarded in quests and it is a big problem for the casual/non hardcore players and leveling up TR, Turbine’s solution does nothing to correct those issues with Hard and Elite Bonuses and simply amplifies the difference between Hardcore players and those that aren’t. But any discussion on the problem is lost in the chaff on the forums. I could go into AC, Ranged Builds, Guild Bonuses, and literally two dozen other issues. The answer is we need a better forum (discussions) to address these imbalances in the game.

Sheep_Stealer
11-07-2011, 11:26 AM
Yup
You know why? Because we don't get any information from you guys about what's going on, whether you're looking to fix A, B and C in this way or that way. Instead, we get "fixes" to problems, that cause more problems, or that result in enormous backlash from the community, because the "fix" has incredibly undesirable consequences that would have become apparent in 2 seconds if we had been asked (off-hand items automatically moving to fill the main hand, for example).


Not entirely true. This post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=341912) by MajMalphunktion is in my opinion the single best post by a Turbine employee in my year long experience with DDO. While not perfect, it did at least show that Turbine acknowledged certain bugs and even gave the status of some of them (still a lot of simply "know issue" lines but at least MajMalphunktion said work was proceeding on some of them). More communication along these lines is definitely needed. Unfortunately many of the follow-up threads read more like press releases than updates on current work which is what I think most of us would like to see. We don't really need teaser posts about challenges, future updates and item updates. I'd like to hear that my quickened spell will be displayed correctly in the next patch or opportunist will finally work correctly (or how about fixing that turbulent epee).

sephiroth1084
11-07-2011, 11:47 AM
Not entirely true. This post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=341912) by MajMalphunktion is in my opinion the single best post by a Turbine employee in my year long experience with DDO. While not perfect, it did at least show that Turbine acknowledged certain bugs and even gave the status of some of them (still a lot of simply "know issue" lines but at least MajMalphunktion said work was proceeding on some of them). More communication along these lines is definitely needed. Unfortunately many of the follow-up threads read more like press releases than updates on current work which is what I think most of us would like to see. We don't really need teaser posts about challenges, future updates and item updates. I'd like to hear that my quickened spell will be displayed correctly in the next patch or opportunist will finally work correctly (or how about fixing that turbulent epee).
The problem is that posts like that are incredibly rare, and that we don't get similar posts along the lines of what the devs are thinking as solutions to problems with major game mechanics/quests/etc..., or ideas for new PrEs, spells, feats, etc... Now, sure, the devs don't (and shouldn't) need to check in with us on everything, but it would be helpful if they did more often, to avoid their having spent a lot of time trying to fix something or add something new and interesting to the game, only to have much of the playerbase react negatively to it, because it hurts us in some way, or is lackluster.

Don't get me wrong, we do get posts like that sometimes (thinking specifically about Genasi's epic loot updates for Houses P and D from several months ago), but I don't feel like we get them enough. Devs have acknowledged that the AC system needs fixing, and that it's on their To Do List, but I haven't seen anything regarding their thoughts on how to approach the problem. Are we going to end up with some clunky system that doesn't really solve any of the problems, like when the devs gave epic minions the -d20 roll on their attacks, without seeming to lower the starting to-hit scores?

Retired_Old_Gamer
11-07-2011, 01:58 PM
The whole ML issue is complex to say the least.

Disclosure being the # 1 concern for the devs.

Gaining an edge being a main concern for the players.

At what point is the line crossed for exploiting the knowledge? And what can be done about it?


The option of making or forcing players to be exclusive to ML won't happen, who would want to give up their friends & such on their main server?

And to expand the player base for ML would be like drilling small holes on a boat (eventually it will leak).

I do have an opinion on making it better. But, again it goes back to disclosure.

As Lama has been open to the public, for those wishing to download & run when live. A similar set-up could be utilized as effectively.


404, ;

On all the live servers, as we meet & run with players, we form bonds of varying degrees. Some of those bonds leads to people banding together in a guild or alliance.

Most older, more established guilds are selective about who they let in. ML could operate in a similar fashion. The small application you have for requesting to join ML is similar to going to a guilds website & requesting admission.

Take the pool of appps people have submitted, and invite them to spend time with them on Lama! By this you can best determine the players abilities & demeanor.
As this isnt fool proof, it is a way of better screening prospective ML players.

Complex issue for sure. I like the idea of ML, and Im sure it's a huge asset in helping develop the game & systems.

Seikojin
11-07-2011, 05:57 PM
Honestly, I like the idea of inviting people into a 'closed' test server. I understand the need for focus groups and opinions from the people who play the game for direction.

I also understand the ened for the non-disclosure of it all. Despite the clear message about Lama being a preview server, how things can change daily, hordes of information is expelled before it hits live. Fortunately, the NDA on such a program is nil, so it isn't soo bad.

Whereas, ML is a deep preview. It goes further than just one update (afik). So anything players gather from there could have either 0 or 100% ramifications in live play. Again, hence the secracy.

In all the years I have been testing, only public betas have the loose NDA's. Private beta's always have strict NDA's for the sole reason of keeping their features guarded until it is ready for public display.

How a company manages its IP is it's business. We know a ton about preview content from lama. So not knowing what ML is focusing on is nothing for me to ignore. When I see updates on ML wanting new people though, I get excited because I may get chosen. LOL

I think having three tiers (ML, Lama, Live) is a great way to get focus and develop the features in a faster way than normal.

My argument about why having a open 'closed' beta is bad? The same reasons 404 mentioned. Too much that would get cut would be talked about before it went to Lama.

Regarding QA; it is one of the big thankless jobs. As bugets get tighter, QA shrinks the most. Members testing have to become more adapt at debugging and troubleshooting and can spend weeks root causing one issue. This is complicated by release schedules, dealines for bugs, deadlines for product releases, etc.

I am sure many features that have been talked about in the past were put on hold for QA reasons alone. In the long run, as long as a majority of users don't experience severity 1 bugs, then it generally gets pushed to public. That is true with every single computer software product out there; games or not.

MMO's happen to be the largest, most complex programs to exist. Butterfly effects can be catastrophic and come from the simplest of things. So making changes to core code is very difficult and problematic at best. Again, true in all products, but magnified in mmo products.

I don't think there is a budget big enough to properly test a build before any reasonable deadline is reached. The war behind the scenes is fixing as much as they can, as fast as they can, given the time allotted to them. The huge swarm of bugfixes I see each week in Maj's forum posts is a big nod to the 'QA exists and does their job' sign.

Cyr
11-08-2011, 10:03 AM
On a whole I have seen less complaints on how fun everything is in the past year and that leads me to believe that what is being done by the players that have applied and are representing you are doing what we hoped for. That says to me that it is working on what it is intended to do.

404,

I have stated numerous times on the forums since EU released that I find the game overall to be a worse game as time has passed since EU. I have also had negative feedback deleted more times since EU released then prior to EU's release by orders of magnitude.

It is difficult to judge success by what you hear from a closed community where all the incentives are to be a yes man (ML) or from a forum where negative feedback is often eliminated.

Let me be clear on this. The game is getting worse not better in my opinion. Even with new content and new classes the game is less fun then it was.

Onto another subject...leaking and abuse of gameplay advantage material from ML.

This should never happen. Not because security should be better or some other impossible to realize idealization. No this should never happen because anything that provides these sorts of advantages should be an open discussion with the real DDO community.

Example...
Wounding and puncturing changes. These should have went to the live community on Lammania. Let the community actually digest them there and state if the idea is horrible or not. No one gains an advantage over others.

Zenako
11-08-2011, 10:51 AM
404,
Onto another subject...leaking and abuse of gameplay advantage material from ML.

This should never happen. Not because security should be better or some other impossible to realize idealization. No this should never happen because anything that provides these sorts of advantages should be an open discussion with the real DDO community.

Example...
Wounding and puncturing changes. These should have went to the live community on Lammania. Let the community actually digest them there and state if the idea is horrible or not. No one gains an advantage over others.

No, all that does is shift the potential WHO gets the advantage. Very few players actually frequent the forums and even fewer bother with Lammaland. Had something been proposed and shown on Lamma, then those who saw it there first would also have the same kind of advantage over everyone else, and perhaps only for a few days, would have the same potential for "profiting" from the information.

It comes across that you would be ok with leaks, as long as you and your peers were in on it, but not ok if some smaller group had that potential that you are not part of. The principle is much the same. Those with advance knowledge taking advantage of those who do not have that knowledge. Expanding the number of people who can take advantage of that information gap does not really address the core issue as you state it.

Cyr
11-08-2011, 11:04 AM
No, all that does is shift the potential WHO gets the advantage. Very few players actually frequent the forums and even fewer bother with Lammaland. Had something been proposed and shown on Lamma, then those who saw it there first would also have the same kind of advantage over everyone else, and perhaps only for a few days, would have the same potential for "profiting" from the information.


Nonsense.

Word spreads quickly in game about these sorts of things. Anyone making a big ticket trade/purchase can log onto the forums and check or ask some people in game if the information is available for public consumption.

This is like arguing the difference between insider trading and a public announcement about a companies profits are the same because some people do not read the newspapers.

Seikojin
11-08-2011, 11:22 AM
404,

I have stated numerous times on the forums since EU released that I find the game overall to be a worse game as time has passed since EU. I have also had negative feedback deleted more times since EU released then prior to EU's release by orders of magnitude.

It is difficult to judge success by what you hear from a closed community where all the incentives are to be a yes man (ML) or from a forum where negative feedback is often eliminated.

Let me be clear on this. The game is getting worse not better in my opinion. Even with new content and new classes the game is less fun then it was.

Onto another subject...leaking and abuse of gameplay advantage material from ML.

This should never happen. Not because security should be better or some other impossible to realize idealization. No this should never happen because anything that provides these sorts of advantages should be an open discussion with the real DDO community.

Example...
Wounding and puncturing changes. These should have went to the live community on Lammania. Let the community actually digest them there and state if the idea is horrible or not. No one gains an advantage over others.

I think if something is a hot topic in ML, it should be topic on Lama. Since many of us are not on ML, we cannot discuss how Puncture and Wounding rule changes were going to come across. I wasn't part of Lama at that time, so I couldn't discuss it if it hit there. If Lama was even available for that.

Assuming that players on ML are yes people is only going to get your opinion less attention. I am pretty sure yes people are summarilly discarded from focus groups, as well as no people. I am also pretty sure people with negative feedback are scrutinized more than people with positive feedback. Not the players, but the feedback. It is pretty obvious from the posts made by devs and community members that constructive feedback, positive or negative, is what works best.

I think part of the reason a lot of what people like Shade says gets soo much attention is due to the plain as day fact that they put a ton of effort in being constructive with their feedback. And offer examples.

As much as it sounds like doing the work for turbine, it is not. They still have to share the idea among their peers and digest the ramifications of it and how it would be intigrated into the game. Then they actually have to impliment it. And as small as changing a +1 to a +2 sounds, programattically, it can be a nightmare. Ask any developer/code writer how hard it is to add new code to existing code. Especially one without notes.

Zenako
11-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Nonsense.

Word spreads quickly in game about these sorts of things. Anyone making a big ticket trade/purchase can log onto the forums and check or ask some people in game if the information is available for public consumption.

This is like arguing the difference between insider trading and a public announcement about a companies profits are the same because some people do not read the newspapers.

Word spreads quickly...in some circles of players. I met players who months after the W/P change went live on the servers still did not know about it and were wondering if the mobs had gotten beefed up. The rest of the party was kinda shocked they had not heard, but they hadn't. It was mentioned it was all over the forums, and they replied, I never bother with the forums since it all flame and venting anyway. Even in my own guild I was often the main contact many had with the news of the day on the forums since they knew I was forum junkie.:) So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.

But since it is inferred that ML gets to see some stuff before Lamma, what if someone acting on "insider news" actually ended up wrong. That the powers that be (developers) decide that the changes are not good and will not in fact go forward to Lamma or Live. For example: if the W/P change had gotten aborted after being seen on ML for a bit. If the abort is after they sold off all theirs for chump change and are now out a bunch of otherwise uber weapons. Acting on Insider info is fraught with peril and risk. The situation can change, the authorities might still come down hard on the violator, even if they got it wrong (either the SEC or Turbine).

altrocks
11-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Word spreads quickly...in some circles of players. I met players who months after the W/P change went live on the servers still did not know about it and were wondering if the mobs had gotten beefed up. The rest of the party was kinda shocked they had not heard, but they hadn't. It was mentioned it was all over the forums, and they replied, I never bother with the forums since it all flame and venting anyway. Even in my own guild I was often the main contact many had with the news of the day on the forums since they knew I was forum junkie.:) So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.

But since it is inferred that ML gets to see some stuff before Lamma, what if someone acting on "insider news" actually ended up wrong. That the powers that be (developers) decide that the changes are not good and will not in fact go forward to Lamma or Live. For example: if the W/P change had gotten aborted after being seen on ML for a bit. If the abort is after they sold off all theirs for chump change and are now out a bunch of otherwise uber weapons. Acting on Insider info is fraught with peril and risk. The situation can change, the authorities might still come down hard on the violator, even if they got it wrong (either the SEC or Turbine).

http://idiotflashback.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/trading_places_f.jpg
You don't say...


While that may be true in theory, it's a little more tricky in practice. Proving that someone was using their insider knowledge can be extremely hard (yes, even in the real world). As it was pointed out before, sometimes inaction gives the positive benefit, not action (Saving that +4 tome because you know TR is about to come out. collecting Reaver/Abbot raid loot you would otherwise have passed because of raid loot upgrades coming out, saving up otherwise lackluster metal-type weapons for crafting because you know crafting is coming out, etc). How do you even notice these things without logging in to the person's account on live?

Also, after a while, you get a feel for how things happen. If something is being ripped apart on the forums by players, then you know it will probably be addressed/fixed/whatever at some point, especially if it's causing people to just not log in. So the risk is minimal for that, I would think. Obviously, none of us can know or talk about if that's the case, but judging from how things go on Lamma, those of us who go there for each update can pretty much tell what's going to change before it goes live (Little to nothing, lately). At the point where it's on the preview server, so much work has gone into it that there's a very high barrier to just scrapping something or taking it in a completely different direction. It's similar to how gamblers will continue to place bets once they've gone into deep debt from gambling. They figure they're so far in that they have to keep playing and hope for a big score to get them out of the hole they dug.

Cyr
11-08-2011, 02:46 PM
I think if something is a hot topic in ML, it should be topic on Lama. Since many of us are not on ML, we cannot discuss how Puncture and Wounding rule changes were going to come across. I wasn't part of Lama at that time, so I couldn't discuss it if it hit there. If Lama was even available for that.


I think you misunderstand me. I am saying that this sort of thing should not happen because policy at Turbine should change to put stuff that they know would provide a huge opportunity for ML players over live players onto Lammania at the same time it goes on ML.

That way everyone has the information who wants the information. Not the select few who have an inherent advantage to stay on the good side of the developers.

Cyr
11-08-2011, 02:54 PM
So yes I view it as a matter of scope and degree the differences between ML and Lamma. Both offer advance info to those on them.


Really you do not understand the difference between secret information that only a select few can access and public information that anyone can access?

It is the difference between a clueless guy asking about w/p prices to their guildies and being answered with an answer about how they got nerfed and are not really worth anything now and the difference between them being given a high price tag.

Zenako
11-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Really you do not understand the difference between secret information that only a select few can access and public information that anyone can access?

It is the difference between a clueless guy asking about w/p prices to their guildies and being answered with an answer about how they got nerfed and are not really worth anything now and the difference between them being given a high price tag.

N o I understand that. What I see is more a matter of scale and degree however. If ML had 1000 people (number from space), and 10000 (another number from space) visit Lamma and the game has 200,000 (yet another number from space (please duck the major asteroid today!)) players, even then MOST of the players do not have first hand knowledge of the change. Depending on contacts and lets say each pool affects 5 to 10 others, then it would be possible the even with changes on Lamma being known by 10 x 10K or 100K players, that would still mean half the population was clueless and subject to being in the dark.

I fail to see how having 10% in the know vs 50% in the know (after word spreading) differs substantially in the aspect of being "fair to all". It is still a matter of degree. With a sizable portion of the player base clueless about it and potential victims of their ignorance of changes.

The difference I see is you consider info once it hits Lamma as being available/known to all, and I see it as still being somewhat of a mystery and unknown to many players in the game. I used to PUG a lot, and the amount of ignorance about the game and new game systems and rules was amazing. When running with guild members, those same changes were common knowledge. If someone runs pretty much all the time with in the know people, then it is easy to expect everyone else to be in the know. Its like in real life when I start talking sports with someone and they don't even know which Major League Teams play in town. :eek::eek::eek: Just hard to fathom. Or someone who is completely clueless about government leaders and who is in charge there or world events. Simply boggles my mind. Earthquake/Tusnami in Japan? Umm never heard about it....sigh.

Seikojin
11-08-2011, 03:38 PM
I think you misunderstand me. I am saying that this sort of thing should not happen because policy at Turbine should change to put stuff that they know would provide a huge opportunity for ML players over live players onto Lammania at the same time it goes on ML.

That way everyone has the information who wants the information. Not the select few who have an inherent advantage to stay on the good side of the developers.

In best HK-47 voice:
Speculation:
Well the whole problem with that is what gets left for Lam is not always what people talk about in ML. If it weren't that way, I would totally agree. But when some features or changes don't make it past ML, then it is just rumor milling to push comments from ML to forums.

Supposition:
I think though, that if they do push something from ML to Lam, it should be part of the topics for Lam. It would be nice if any gameplay feature was subject to change in ML that a topic would be made on Lam forums if it was going to make it there.

Conjecture:
Doing that though requires cross group collaboration and communication that isn't always acceptable by everyone involved.

Beldain
11-09-2011, 02:18 AM
standard? what??

Name one other successful major mmo that does this.

Pre-release its standard. 5/6 years down the road? ...

and actaully the best mmos and best upcoming ones demonlished there NDA VERY early in the cycle. TERAs is demolished already and they aren't planning a release tell mid-late 2012 for example. tons of closed beta videos all over youtube.

Haven't waded through the other 100 posts yet, so apologies if someone else mentioned this:

EQ1 and EQ2 used that process.. while they've faded into the woodwork for the most part, they were highly successful for years.. every expansion was accompanied with private invites (both individuals and entire guilds w/charcopies) to a special invite-only 'beta' server, mostly for getting player feedback rather than actual bug-hunting...

karsion
11-09-2011, 08:41 AM
N o I understand that. What I see is more a matter of scale and degree however. If ML had 1000 people (number from space), and 10000 (another number from space) visit Lamma and the game has 200,000 (yet another number from space (please duck the major asteroid today!)) players, even then MOST of the players do not have first hand knowledge of the change. Depending on contacts and lets say each pool affects 5 to 10 others, then it would be possible the even with changes on Lamma being known by 10 x 10K or 100K players, that would still mean half the population was clueless and subject to being in the dark.

I fail to see how having 10% in the know vs 50% in the know (after word spreading) differs substantially in the aspect of being "fair to all". It is still a matter of degree. With a sizable portion of the player base clueless about it and potential victims of their ignorance of changes.

The difference I see is you consider info once it hits Lamma as being available/known to all, and I see it as still being somewhat of a mystery and unknown to many players in the game. I used to PUG a lot, and the amount of ignorance about the game and new game systems and rules was amazing. When running with guild members, those same changes were common knowledge. If someone runs pretty much all the time with in the know people, then it is easy to expect everyone else to be in the know. Its like in real life when I start talking sports with someone and they don't even know which Major League Teams play in town. :eek::eek::eek: Just hard to fathom. Or someone who is completely clueless about government leaders and who is in charge there or world events. Simply boggles my mind. Earthquake/Tusnami in Japan? Umm never heard about it....sigh.

Ok you see that but you fail to see the difference between information being secret when you are not a chosen one (being part of Mournlands group) and it being secret because you didn't care to look for it (don't know/care about wiki, avoiding forums, not logging into Lammania). Forced ignorance vs willing ignorance, see?

Zenako
11-09-2011, 10:23 AM
Ok you see that but you fail to see the difference between information being secret when you are not a chosen one (being part of Mournlands group) and it being secret because you didn't care to look for it (don't know/care about wiki, avoiding forums, not logging into Lammania). Forced ignorance vs willing ignorance, see?

But if the point is that some players know something that others don't and are able to take advantage of that ignorance, what does it matter how that difference came to be, if the real concern is that difference. Perhaps my point is being to subtle here. I am trying to distinguish if the concern is the info disparity or the fact that even those who might otherwise have ferreted it out now fall into the not knowing side of the equation.

If it is truely ANYONE with advance knowledge scamming those who do not have it (for whatever reason, including being lazy and clueless) that concerns people, then even Lamma land presents that same threat. It does not seem like Lamma concerns as many however, so the principle is now not so rigid but more along the lines of ML is bad because no matter what one does, one can't choose to be one of the ones in the know just by ones own activity.

From my perspective, whether it is a small handful of in the knows taking advantage or hundreds or even thousands, they are still taking advantage of those who are not in the know. Both are uncool. It is like some of those AH postings where the seller is asking scam level pricing on items you can purchase for a LOT less from shops and vendors. Most of the time that is simply an attempt to scam the ignorant. (In the real world EBAY and places like that see that kind of stuff all the time, and the old adage about a fool and his money unfortunately rings true all too often.)

altrocks
11-09-2011, 03:22 PM
But if the point is that some players know something that others don't and are able to take advantage of that ignorance, what does it matter how that difference came to be, if the real concern is that difference. Perhaps my point is being to subtle here. I am trying to distinguish if the concern is the info disparity or the fact that even those who might otherwise have ferreted it out now fall into the not knowing side of the equation.

If it is truely ANYONE with advance knowledge scamming those who do not have it (for whatever reason, including being lazy and clueless) that concerns people, then even Lamma land presents that same threat. It does not seem like Lamma concerns as many however, so the principle is now not so rigid but more along the lines of ML is bad because no matter what one does, one can't choose to be one of the ones in the know just by ones own activity.

From my perspective, whether it is a small handful of in the knows taking advantage or hundreds or even thousands, they are still taking advantage of those who are not in the know. Both are uncool. It is like some of those AH postings where the seller is asking scam level pricing on items you can purchase for a LOT less from shops and vendors. Most of the time that is simply an attempt to scam the ignorant. (In the real world EBAY and places like that see that kind of stuff all the time, and the old adage about a fool and his money unfortunately rings true all too often.)

That's like saying it's unfair that new players don't know everything vets know about the game. The information is available (from multiple sources no less) when changes appear on Lamma. If you don't care about that, then okay, you might miss some things and maybe get ripped off, but that blame is on YOU. If someone from ML did the same thing, with no one outside of ML knowing about the changes that make the trade/action/whatever a ripoff, then the blame is on THEM. If you do not see the big difference there, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Zenako
11-09-2011, 03:49 PM
The difference I think is I am choosing to blame the perpetrator of the rip off rather than laying the blame on the victim who "should have known better" in this scenario.

Pfold
11-17-2011, 10:30 PM
Just a couple of thoughts after reading through this thread:

I do not believe people recruited for ML are the correct type of person/player. Anyone can tell you whether or not something is fun but not everyone knows where to look for things that are probably out of whack. How fun is something that doesn't work? You want folks that can find things you don't want getting into live servers? Find yourself people that like glitching in FPS type games.

Play time by the player should also be taken into consideration. What good is it to have someone that ordinarily plays 8-10 hours a week? How much of that time do you really expect them to sacrifice? You want game junkies. I've seen the Lamma turnout for several updates now (with TP incentives)and can only imagine the regular turnout of ML to be even worse. There was what? 100 people at that last 'event' on Lamma?

I personally believe that having a compensatory system in place for testers is required. The compensation should be a big enough incentive that the tester doesn't want to put it into jeopardy by breaking the NDA. Seems fair enough. You want people to do a job for you... ...well then pay them. How much (or what quality) do you actually expect to get for free or for very little?

Let's stop with the 'preview' misnomer. I go into a theater to watch a movie and see some previews. I don't normally see the producers there with a clipboard asking me a bunch of questions afterwards. If that did happen it would just seem awkward and unprofessional. You want to put out a true preview, load some unreleased scenes from quests or whatnot to your youtube channel. That is a preview. Perhaps 'Review' server is what was in mind and someone just made a typo? /shrug.

Lastly, get your cleric some hp's. When you joined our group you had 25% hp's less than our group gimp. I might even have some items to help you out. I say this in a friendly manner. Next time I might have the star...:p

Angelus_dead
11-17-2011, 11:19 PM
Anyone can tell you whether or not something is fun but not everyone knows where to look for things that are probably out of whack. How fun is something that doesn't work? You want folks that can find things you don't want getting into live servers?
There is no reason to think that mournland players aren't finding most all of those problems.

After all, simply being informed of a problem doesn't make Turbine go and fix it. When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.

It appears that the current limiting factor in game quality isn't detecting these problems, but actually going in there to fix it.


You want people to do a job for you... ...well then pay them. How much (or what quality) do you actually expect to get for free or for very little?
What developers would they cut to pay these new testers?

What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero, and most likely they do.


Let's stop with the 'preview' misnomer. I go into a theater to watch a movie and see some previews. I don't normally see the producers there with a clipboard asking me a bunch of questions afterwards. If that did happen it would just seem awkward and unprofessional.
Newsflash: That is exactly what happens at preview film screenings. You get free tickets, and then the marketing guys come out with their clipboards at the end to focus you all.

Pfold
11-18-2011, 07:25 PM
There is no reason to think that mournland players aren't finding most all of those problems.

After all, simply being informed of a problem doesn't make Turbine go and fix it.* (Here's your answer to you next question) When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.

There have been things that have been reported on Lammania in the past that got axed prior to going live. So by your statement I can only assume you feel noone at Turbine does a good job.

It appears that the current limiting factor in game quality isn't detecting these problems, but actually going in there to fix it.

Again I sense you feel that Turbine as a whole is inept given this statement. If you would have me believe this, why would it be a stretch that the folks they picked for mournlands are poor choices?

*What developers would they cut to pay these new testers? (See your answer above- seems fairly logical to cut the people not doing as good of a job as the rest? Eh?)

What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero, and most likely they do.

Expect little more than zero eh? Well, bad information, biased feedback or incomplete surveys would be quantified as more than zero. I'll give you that one. Kudos.

Newsflash: That is exactly what happens at preview film screenings. You get free tickets, and then the marketing guys come out with their clipboards at the end to focus you all.

Newsflash: when you go to see a feature movie you see several previews (you know the adverts for other movies). I have yet to have any employee at a theatre ask me for anything other than my order. Maybe it's different in your country? /shrugwhocares

In red

I'm even going to give you a +1 because this is the funniest thing I've read all day:

"What can they expect to get for free: they can hope to get a little more than zero".

I'm sure all the naive hope to get more than zero for something free. The Sunday paper coupon section must be like a shot of adrenaline to them. Lewlz

Backley
11-21-2011, 01:19 PM
Newsflash: when you go to see a feature movie you see several previews (you know the adverts for other movies). I have yet to have any employee at a theatre ask me for anything other than my order. Maybe it's different in your country? /shrugwhocares

And he was pointing out that there are 2 kinds of movie previews: preview ads before a normal screening of another film, and 'preview screenings' of films that do just as he said: get feedback on upcoming films.

Mournlands/Lamannia are 'preview screenings' of future content, not short ads. 2 definitions.

LightBear
11-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Mourlands, if I ever go there it's on invitation and totally billable. And let me tell you my services do not come cheap.

barecm
01-21-2012, 05:28 PM
Unfortunately, I have forum penalty points from when the Kommunity Kobald was out of control. Hitting me with multiple points for 1 infraction....like 10+ for one exchange that wasn't even that bad by current standards. Oh yeah, it was like 3-4 years ago, maybe longer, and they never go away so.... despite how much I could participate or not, I could never apply. What I am asking is that maybe we drop some of those old points after a couple years? Considering I had to call in and complain about the prevous forum monitor (to which the phone CSR told me I was not the first call recieved about that particular forum monitor) that there was nothing they could do to reduce the points. Let me say I play a ton since I have a job where I can get away with playing and a wife that goes to bed early most nights ;o) Plus, I have been around since the beginning and have a pretty grasp of the game. Despite all that, I cannot even apply. Oh well..... Turbine's loss I guess.

Missing_Minds
01-21-2012, 05:41 PM
When they don't fix something reported on live, and they didn't fix it reported on Lamanina, the logical conclusion is that it was reported on Mournland too and they didn't fix it then either.

Given the fact that the bug reporting tool was screwed up for how freaking long...

And your so called 'logical conclusion' is only an assumption.

The only way to know is to be there. One thing I'm not about to do is attack an unknown group over perceived wrongs when I don't even know what they do there let alone given they are bound by an NDA they can't even defend themselves against accusations. Takes a real internet tough guy to be that balzy.

altrocks
01-21-2012, 08:09 PM
Given the fact that the bug reporting tool was screwed up for how freaking long...

And your so called 'logical conclusion' is only an assumption.

The only way to know is to be there. One thing I'm not about to do is attack an unknown group over perceived wrongs when I don't even know what they do there let alone given they are bound by an NDA they can't even defend themselves against accusations. Takes a real internet tough guy to be that balzy.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he's attacking the Devs there, not the previewers. You know, if you actually read what was written. And it's not a bad assumption as these things go. We seen problems in Lamma all the time and they almost always go straight to live, where they persist for what? Months? Years? Some of them are glaringly obvious, too. So, assuming that someone noticed them further back on the chain, reported it, and had it promptly ignored by anyone in a position to fix it... not unreasonable. It's a pattern of behavior that has been going on for a long, long time.

Missing_Minds
01-21-2012, 08:14 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure he's attacking the Devs there, not the previewers. You know, if you actually read what was written.

Which if you know how things work in an organization, a developer seldom can pick and choose issues to fix. Normally they are assigned and that is their job. Their job is not to play suckup to players. (that would be PR people.)

Attacking developers just because they happen to be visible doesn't help. You have to attack the one that does the assignment, of which you notice there are very few managers present to attack. Go figure.

altrocks
01-22-2012, 01:13 AM
Which if you know how things work in an organization, a developer seldom can pick and choose issues to fix. Normally they are assigned and that is their job. Their job is not to play suckup to players. (that would be PR people.)

Attacking developers just because they happen to be visible doesn't help. You have to attack the one that does the assignment, of which you notice there are very few managers present to attack. Go figure.

Excrement does not always roll downhill, despite popular belief. Sometimes it backs up when there's too much of it and it shoots up into your face. This is one of those situations. As you pointed out, there aren't any project managers on here, and except for big announcements, Fernando isn't on here, so who do we have contact with that can at least begin to deal with the problem? Developers and QA, who ARE on here. Who can then take it to their bosses and explain exactly why correcting Bug A is more important than correcting Bug B, or working on UI Improvement C. And especially during testing/previews, when we're highly encouraged to report any bugs/exploits/errors that we find since the changes haven't gone live yet.

I understand the ISO system for documentation and such. I've dealt with it. It's why I no longer deal with it. Changing the background color of a screen takes half an hour of paper work, phone calls and faxes, and that's if everything is going smoothly. Then you actually have to make the change, test it, send it to QA to further testing, get the sign off from the requesting party/manager that the change was completed successfully and then send it upstream for inclusion in the next version change/upgrade. Even so, we had no real bug report tool for how long? And there has never been a known issues/bugs database (the known issues linked to from the update notes are manually maintained at random intervals by different people who may or may not always know what they're doing). So all we can do is complain on here, in any way possible, to get some attention to the issues we believe are important. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, etc.

Or are you saying that certain persistent bugs and the fact that they were caught, reported and ignored well before live release are not issues that should be dealt with?

Buggss
03-15-2012, 07:10 AM
....there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.....

Just saw this and I have to agree. :)

Sorry about that...

fatherpirate
03-25-2012, 01:00 AM
Have applied a couple of times..no joy