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View Full Version : Abbot: Can we get maybe something easier? Or will we only see it become only harder?



xandariant
11-02-2011, 07:33 AM
I have an IDEA.
Instead of listening to all those old players that make this game harder for all new ppl, we can make something easier form time to time? How about this?

I kinda found interesting thread recently:

I posted this idea in a reply to someone else's thread and decided it was a good enough idea to have its' own post. Let me know what you think:

the abbot raid is not very pick-up-group friendly as it stands. No one wants to go in, do the puzzles (that often fail and require reforms) only to die at inferno due to a number of glitches in the game (nothing to do with player skill when the abbot can encase the entire raid at once, or wands misfire, etc) my suggestion is this:

Switch the abbot attack sequences. This means make him do encasement/inferno upon initial aggro. To stand a chance, we'd also need to have ice wands and asteroids on the alter when you zone in.

Once defeated, he will go rest and we proceed to puzzles as normal.

Then once puzzles are done and his sarcophagi destroyed he is left weaker and the 2nd battle with him is the beatdown we currently have at the beginning.

This makes more sense, and would give pugs a better chance to complete (after the 1st abbot fight) limiting the need for lengthy reforms and making it friendlier to new players actually interested in learning the puzzles.
I have to say I like it.
It could work with new changes with water and make it nice composition for making it finally a raid that a lot ppl can pug.
I personally would like to see it with lessening Inforno, to stop it being RAID wipe spell with that massive lag.

For me game is fun when a lot of ppl can play all content, and not only chosen few old timers who know it all. I would like to see it happen do Abbot, so there will be a lot of ppl doing it instead of skipping it cause its too much time loss or too hard with a lot of ppl who has to know EXACTLY what to do.
That raid is nice, but too hard for pugs and too laggy (please rewrite it finally)!!

Take in mind that number of ppl who stopped doing and marked it as "not worth it" is increasing each day and adding some upgrades that are nice, wont change ppls mind. A lot of them write that they regret buying that pack and time spend or flagging - YES, getting seal done and 4 litany runs sucks except for nice xp, nobody wants Skiver anymore, it takes too much time.

FINALLY I wonder why abbot has so much HP, even looking at raid lvl, he is a freaking arcane, they have 1d4 per lvl, not like demons that should have been threated like 1d12 or something.
I mean, he is powerful (now metas are applied, what was nice) with all spells and all he has, but why he doesn't suffer the being arcane problem?! (lower hp, than other bosses?)

Now I will only wait till all those who can criticize easing game to throw all tomatoes on me.

Truga
11-02-2011, 07:34 AM
Actually, liches have d12 HD.

Kmnh
11-02-2011, 07:52 AM
There is no way to make abbot pug friendly without murdering the raid. The difficult part is the actual mechanics.

If you lower the abbot's HP, no one gets to experience the machanics. That's why they raised it, so you actually have to use the wands and jump out of inferno, instead of healing through it and killing him quickly like people did before.

TDarkchylde
11-02-2011, 08:01 AM
There is no way to make abbot pug friendly without murdering the raid. The difficult part is the actual mechanics.

If you lower the abbot's HP, no one gets to experience the machanics. That's why they raised it, so you actually have to use the wands and jump out of inferno, instead of healing through it and killing him quickly like people did before.

That doesn't make it right. The mechanics themselves are what cause a lot of wipes - wand doesn't go off, people are ill-equipped to heal through Inferno, etc.

And before anyone cries "easy button," I'm talking about Normal. Normal should still be able to be recovered even if the people in Ice lag out or one of the Gogglers gets disconnected. As it stands now, there's little to no functional difference between the difficulties just due to the HP. Let Elite stay so difficult that even the so-called "powergamers" wipe more than they succeed for all I care. Some of us just kind of meander between 20th lists here.

Kmnh
11-02-2011, 08:07 AM
That doesn't make it right. The mechanics themselves are what cause a lot of wipes - wand doesn't go off, people are ill-equipped to heal through Inferno, etc.

And before anyone cries "easy button," I'm talking about Normal. Normal should still be able to be recovered even if the people in Ice lag out or one of the Gogglers gets disconnected. As it stands now, there's little to no functional difference between the difficulties just due to the HP. Let Elite stay so difficult that even the so-called "powergamers" wipe more than they succeed for all I care. Some of us just kind of meander between 20th lists here.

Well, no one is entitled to the loot. If you want your 20th list, you have to complete the raid 20 times, and actually survive the machanics.

TDarkchylde
11-02-2011, 08:14 AM
Well, no one is entitled to the loot. If you want your 20th list, you have to complete the raid 20 times, and actually survive the machanics.

Hence why I run Normal Shroud, DQ, ToD, etc. You still get the mechanics, but you also get some margin for error. Half the group dies in Part 4? It can still be saved. Healer gets TK'd off the platform? It can still be saved. Two tanks die while trying to tank Horoth? Takes some resources but it can still be saved. Normal Abbot doesn't have this - you still have to reform because a single puzzle fails, and wands still lag out. There is no margin for error and if I'm expecting that out of the group, I run Elite.

Before the unnecessary bump in the Abbot's HP a few updates back, you could still save the raid if something went wrong. Not anymore.

Roderickus
11-02-2011, 08:23 AM
That doesn't make it right. The mechanics themselves are what cause a lot of wipes - wand doesn't go off, people are ill-equipped to heal through Inferno, etc.

And before anyone cries "easy button," I'm talking about Normal. Normal should still be able to be recovered even if the people in Ice lag out or one of the Gogglers gets disconnected. As it stands now, there's little to no functional difference between the difficulties just due to the HP. Let Elite stay so difficult that even the so-called "powergamers" wipe more than they succeed for all I care. Some of us just kind of meander between 20th lists here.
Abbot's incresed HP extended the raid greatly but mechanics are still the same. If designated party member can't deal with them he should be outside with the rest of non-puzzles people. But he/she ain't gonna learn anything that way.
Trying to heal trough inferno is suicidal. If u don't have pale lavender stone or just can't jump on the isle it's ur own fault. If isle is not there that just means ice wand person is incompetent (hes either affected by rage-madstone,barbarian. Or doesn't know he has to actually hotbar and click it). There are (should be if not the case at ur server) usually several people with wands anyway.
If the Tiles person DCed you can't blame the Raid now can u.
Also... if asteroid person can't watch his teammate's back, hes not ready for the raid. Simple targeting function.

Hafeal
11-02-2011, 08:24 AM
I am not sure the Raid needs wants you suggest.

The reason the raid is not PuG friendly is that he flagging mechanism is the absolute WORST in the game, bar none. It seems to me, that people just do not want to generally grind Abbott flagging until they are 'filling out' at 20 on a character that they are not TRing.

Coincidentally, and for example, I just was finishing flagging for my static group last night - we have had to run Inferno more than 6 times and 2 of us STILL are not flagged for not getting enough #3 sigil pieces. We are 20s now. If we had been doing at level, with xp, we would have (and did) move on to different content.

I think the area is great - good graphics, great story. If you make flagging so that you get your 4 (1-4) pieces automatically upon completion of the main quests and then randomly assign 5-8 in any quest (as it currently stands), I think you would see a good bump in raid ready players and more Abbott activity. :)

P.S. (left unsaid but now said) With the inference being that the more players run the quest, the better they will get at and know the mechanics.

TDarkchylde
11-02-2011, 08:44 AM
Abbot's incresed HP extended the raid greatly but mechanics are still the same. If designated party member can't deal with them he should be outside with the rest of non-puzzles people. But he/she ain't gonna learn anything that way.
Give me a machine that doesn't lag in Goggles or Ice and I'd gladly learn them. Sadly, that's a no go, so I just throw Roids. Everyone should at least be able to do THAT, that I can agree with.

Trying to heal trough inferno is suicidal. If u don't have pale lavender stone or just can't jump on the isle it's ur own fault.
A Mantle of the Worldshaper used to be enough. It should still be enough... for NORMAL. I don't care if Elite stays difficult, I just won't run it except with a group I can trust.

If isle is not there that just means ice wand person is incompetent (hes either affected by rage-madstone,barbarian. Or doesn't know he has to actually hotbar and click it). There are (should be if not the case at ur server) usually several people with wands anyway.
Or it means the wand never went off. That's sometimes unavoidable. It shouldn't wipe the raid ALL OF THE TIME. Luckily, with the change to the water, it no longer will. It made one part less cheesy and another part easier. That I can applaud.

If the Tiles person DCed you can't blame the Raid now can u.
Nope, but you can't recover, either. You can have backup tanks for when the main one dies/disconnects, you can and should have multiple healers for redundancy. If the person going across in Goggles has the goggles and the other side hasn't gone yet, it's a WIPE.

elraido
11-02-2011, 08:46 AM
I have an IDEA.
Instead of listening to all those old players that make this game harder for all new ppl, we can make something easier form time to time?

One reason why all us old players call for things to be harder, is because when the game launched...parts of it were brutal. And that was the way we liked it!

Cyr
11-02-2011, 08:52 AM
P.S. (left unsaid but now said) With the inference being that the more players run the quest, the better they will get at and know the mechanics.

I know the mechanics and have known them in every incarnation of the many that the raid has had. Yet, I still find the raid to be the worst piece of content in the entire game. That has everything to do with the mechanics. One mistake and you are dead mechanics that rely upon little to no lag and what should be solid, but still after years are not wand firing mechanics to work flawlessly. Asteroids is not an issue. Ice was not an issue in the current revision because people would DI or water walk it...often trying the jump first. Tiles was the only one then that had this problem.

With water again being a sticking point it will mean more reforms and more reliance upon those who have the best connections and the hope that they do not hit a lag spike.

ToKu
11-02-2011, 08:54 AM
I agree with the fact that the abbot raid is one of the hardest to pug and most punishing for a single mistake. I wouldn't even mind it staying the way it is if they would fix all the issues with it. Specifically those involving inferno and the ice wand.

The challenge in the raid should not come from unavoidable and unpreventable glitches.

I have had a person toss an island and it never materialize.
I have had a person toss an island, we all jump and land on it and die.
I have had a person toss an island, we all jump and land on it then die to inferno.

You can run this raid flawlessly and still lose. After the next update there wont even be the "cleric who DI'd themselves and recovers the raid" option.

elraido
11-02-2011, 09:07 AM
I have found the most simple solution to the abbott inferno is just throwing on a spell absorb amulet. 50K plat on the ah most of the time.

crimsonrazac
11-02-2011, 09:14 AM
technically 1 puzzle failing doesn't have to be a wipe. people can just go through the portal and beat him down again and d doors will pop again, you don't have to complete sides that you have already done so you could get more people to the areas that need it

im not saying i agree with it, im just pointing out that the option is out there

MrkGrismer
11-02-2011, 10:01 AM
If they made the flagging mechanics easier instead of playing a slot machine there might be more people flagged to do the raid, and thus more people doing the raid which would make pugging easier.

Hafeal
11-02-2011, 10:20 AM
Fair enough. I guess I want to see how the changes work (I have not been on Lammania to play the raid). If the changes implemented really make the raid a 1 shot fail due to lag, then absolutely yes, it will need to be changed (again, lol).


I know the mechanics and have known them in every incarnation of the many that the raid has had. Yet, I still find the raid to be the worst piece of content in the entire game. That has everything to do with the mechanics. One mistake and you are dead mechanics that rely upon little to no lag and what should be solid, but still after years are not wand firing mechanics to work flawlessly. Asteroids is not an issue. Ice was not an issue in the current revision because people would DI or water walk it...often trying the jump first. Tiles was the only one then that had this problem.

With water again being a sticking point it will mean more reforms and more reliance upon those who have the best connections and the hope that they do not hit a lag spike.

gloopygloop
11-02-2011, 10:25 AM
I have an IDEA.
Instead of listening to all those old players that make this game harder for all new ppl, we can make something easier form time to time? How about this?

Instead of listening to new players who can't handle harder content asking that the game be made easier, how about we just have different difficulty levels so that new players could go into content on Normal and well geared characters that can handle harder content can go into the same content on Elite without being bored out of their minds?

I think that would be an amazing idea. I wish DDO had a feature like that...

Truga
11-02-2011, 10:30 AM
If they made the flagging mechanics easier instead of playing a slot machine there might be more people flagged to do the raid, and thus more people doing the raid which would make pugging easier.

This. It took me over 9000 runs through the orchard to flag for the damn thing.

Tobril
11-02-2011, 10:33 AM
technically 1 puzzle failing doesn't have to be a wipe. people can just go through the portal and beat him down again and d doors will pop again, you don't have to complete sides that you have already done so you could get more people to the areas that need it

im not saying i agree with it, im just pointing out that the option is out there



Before the massive HP increase this was common.


Has his normal difficulty HP normal been decreased? It would be desirable to have a setting
that is easier to train people for running elite, as well as elite having a better payout.

Tobril
11-02-2011, 10:37 AM
If they made the flagging mechanics easier instead of playing a slot machine there might be more people flagged to do the raid, and thus more people doing the raid which would make pugging easier.


I think they have addressed this issue.

A few weeks ago it took a single inferno to get the specific piece for 3 of our 4 person TR group. A few runs (about three) and everyone had our piece.

The other quests all had a similar feeling of increased drop rate, although the random parts were the holdup this time around.

grgurius
11-02-2011, 10:40 AM
Nope, but you can't recover, either. You can have backup tanks for when the main one dies/disconnects, you can and should have multiple healers for redundancy. If the person going across in Goggles has the goggles and the other side hasn't gone yet, it's a WIPE.

Hm, 4 people for roids, 2 for ice, 6 left, surely if one person disconnects other 5 can still complete tiles.

Tobril
11-02-2011, 10:42 AM
Hm, 4 people for roids, 2 for ice, 6 left, surely if one person disconnects other 5 can still complete tiles.


Don’t get the Sarlonians started about tiles/goggles issues…

Sjiggie
11-02-2011, 10:49 AM
Give me a machine that doesn't lag in Goggles or Ice and I'd gladly learn them. Sadly, that's a no go, so I just throw Roids. Everyone should at least be able to do THAT, that I can agree with.[quote] Goggles and Ice are easy as they are now, I usually use Teamspeak to communicate with the person that I have to guide but I can do it with no mic if needed aswell. Ice is just a matter of letting eachother know where to stand on the island and breaking the sarcophagus before you go jumping

{quite]A Mantle of the Worldshaper used to be enough. It should still be enough... for NORMAL. I don't care if Elite stays difficult, I just won't run it except with a group I can trust.

Or it means the wand never went off. That's sometimes unavoidable. It shouldn't wipe the raid ALL OF THE TIME. Luckily, with the change to the water, it no longer will. It made one part less cheesy and another part easier. That I can applaud.
Inferno is easily avoided by using an Ice wand, load 1 person up with bunch of them have them go into the final fight and die on purpose (while he tries to kill the quells) and there should be enough wands on the platform for every person to grab one and make his/her own ice island. If you can't do that learn it can't blame the raid for it.


Nope, but you can't recover, either. You can have backup tanks for when the main one dies/disconnects, you can and should have multiple healers for redundancy. If the person going across in Goggles has the goggles and the other side hasn't gone yet, it's a WIPE.
In fact you can recover. Fight the abbot for a 2nd time and the puzzle doors will appear again and you can reattempt them. But its easier to just reform/restart then to power through the abbot fight again.

This raid doesn't need any change its good as it is maybe tone down is hp a little on normal so there is a difference between normal/elite but other then that the raid is fine as is.

-Reizals

Samiusbot
11-02-2011, 10:52 AM
I would like to see the “puzzles” used in other quests. Or at least close enough that new people can have a place they can go to learn them.

And to make life easier why not make them Nerco themed? Be it a challenge quest, or a a normal style of quest.

I can even see a roids like trainer being added to the list of ship amities; for a ranged combat buff.

MrkGrismer
11-02-2011, 11:02 AM
I think they have addressed this issue.

A few weeks ago it took a single inferno to get the specific piece for 3 of our 4 person TR group. A few runs (about three) and everyone had our piece.

The other quests all had a similar feeling of increased drop rate, although the random parts were the holdup this time around.

Hm, I haven't seen anything in the release notes. You might have just gotten lucky, but maybe I will give them another round this coming week...

Tobril
11-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Hm, I haven't seen anything in the release notes. You might have just gotten lucky, but maybe I will give them another round this coming week...


I didn’t see it in the notes specifically, just presumed it was part of the
general “loot drop increase” that was mentioned. Sigil piece drops
“felt” way higher, if it was just luck then I am off to buy a lottery ticket.

I can certainly attest that the named drops are better, as I pulled two
boots of the innocent and a ton of shield/tome pages dropped for
various people.

Claver
11-02-2011, 11:32 AM
The reason the raid is not PuG friendly is that he flagging mechanism is the absolute WORST in the game, bar none. It seems to me, that people just do not want to generally grind Abbott flagging until they are 'filling out' at 20 on a character that they are not TRing.

Coincidentally, and for example, I just was finishing flagging for my static group last night - we have had to run Inferno more than 6 times and 2 of us STILL are not flagged for not getting enough #3 sigil pieces. We are 20s now. If we had been doing at level, with xp, we would have (and did) move on to different content.

Quoted For Truth. Relaxing the flagging mechanic would do more than any other other change I can imagine to encourage greater numbers of people to run the Abbott.

Drfirewater79
11-02-2011, 12:45 PM
The problem with the abbot raid (and the reason very few people actually care to run it) is that if no one knows how to do goggles (which generally means they are using an exploit cause no one does it without the exploit) then no one wants to do the raid.

What should have happened a long time ago is that the difficulty of the quest should change the requirements for the end fight.

Examples:

All settings: abbot starts with immunity to blunt weapons has fire shield cold and is aided by 3 red named Litches (he can resummon 1 litch per inferno) and has displacement on him.

complete roids: remove blunt weapon immunity and remove one litch from his team
complete water: remove fire shield cold and one litch from his team
complete goggles : remove displacement and one litch from his team.
complete all : double damage from fire no litch companions and he loses the ability to summon litch companions during inferno.

Normal difficulty:
required: must complete at least 1 puzzle to have him come down and fight

Hard difficulty:
required must complete at least 2 puzzles to have him come down and fight

Elite difficulty:
required must complete all three puzzles to have him come down and fight

EPIC DIFFICULTY:
required must complete all thee puzzles to have him come down and fight
Will summon litches regardless of how many puzzles have been completed to a total of 3 every inferno.

---------------------------

the litches add a level of difficulty on there own (especially if they are given the ability to use death aura which heals abbot for small amounts of hps kind of like the gnolls in shroud)
but it doesnt make all three puzzles manditory which will get more people attempting the raid other then the few guild groups or elitists groups that do it now.

While the raid isn't crazy hard .. the puzzles are the main reason that alot of people dont waste there time with the raid.

The second reason is flagging. The drop rates of the puzzle pieces are ******** i have a character who has all the pieces except one of the random ones .. have run vol and doomsphere at least 20 times each trying to get the last part and never get it.

Then i think as an artificer what do i need from there .. the answer is nothing. I would like a litney and a quiver ... but i dont need it ... all ready a ton of great gear and i dont need to farm for days just to get into the raid for one or two pieces of gear that i dont really require to be successful.

---------------

I dont know about you guys but i personally would be happier to farm the raid 20th runs on normal or hard with my suggestions then to bother doing it on any setting with the way the raid is now.

And that is why i stopped joining abbot raids almost 2 years ago ... cause its not fun ... its not worth the effort to flag or to find a group ... and the gear is not worth sweating over IMHO.

Drfirewater79
11-02-2011, 12:50 PM
I would like to see the “puzzles” used in other quests. Or at least close enough that new people can have a place they can go to learn them.

And to make life easier why not make them Nerco themed? Be it a challenge quest, or a a normal style of quest.

I can even see a roids like trainer being added to the list of ship amities; for a ranged combat buff.

the problem isnt people learning them .. its people wanting to learn them ... goggles is the only one people actually have to learn ... it doesnt take a genius to DI someone and have them do water... it doesnt take a rocket sientist to do roids (it just takes simple instruction to all face center and look over the head of your opposing player for roids and shoot) ... goggles is the issue ... if True Seeing would work to see the puzzle then it would be a different story ... but the two people needing to co-ordinate and more often then not use screen hitching EXPLOIT to complete it .... that is the issue.

give people the ability to use true seeing in goggles and that alone will have many many more people running abbot. the puzzles dont need to be reused .... the puzzles need to be revamped to make them enjoyable.

If they reused the goggles in another raid or quest .. all that would happen is no one would run it .. just like abbot raid.

GrampaBill
11-02-2011, 01:06 PM
One option would be to remove the tiles portion of the puzzle and implement a variant of it in the actual battle. Implement something like the boss battle located in one of the Amrath quests (Bastion?) where tiles give a warning and then disappear and anyone remaining on them dies.

In fact, you could combine all three of the puzzle elements in the main hall.

1) Wand attendants for the occasional inferno, as it is currently implemented -- just no ice run beforehand.
2) Boulder attendants for incoming asteroids and throwing damage against the Abbot as necessary.
3) The Abbot teleports on the interior section of the platform where the remaining party battles him but have to watch for flashing/disappearing tiles but no goggles are necessary.

SilkofDrasnia
11-02-2011, 01:51 PM
Instead of listening to new players who can't handle harder content asking that the game be made easier, how about we just have different difficulty levels so that new players could go into content on Normal and well geared characters that can handle harder content can go into the same content on Elite without being bored out of their minds?

I think that would be an amazing idea. I wish DDO had a feature like that...

hmm seem to me that was the general idea of this thread to make NORMAL a little more forgiving to newbs so they can pratcice/learn the quest and leave hard/elite as is

Hafeal
11-02-2011, 02:04 PM
I think they have addressed this issue.

A few weeks ago it took a single inferno to get the specific piece for 3 of our 4 person TR group. A few runs (about three) and everyone had our piece.

The other quests all had a similar feeling of increased drop rate, although the random parts were the holdup this time around.

I believe you were lucky. See my prior post, as of last night, our luck was not (and has not been) yours. :( I have seen nothing in any release indicating a change in the sigil drops.

Tobril
11-02-2011, 02:19 PM
I believe you were lucky.


I knew those kitten sacrifices would come in handy. :)

oradafu
11-02-2011, 02:19 PM
I think they have addressed this issue.

A few weeks ago it took a single inferno to get the specific piece for 3 of our 4 person TR group. A few runs (about three) and everyone had our piece.

The other quests all had a similar feeling of increased drop rate, although the random parts were the holdup this time around.

I'd have to say your group was very lucky. My TR2 hasn't had any luck with the Inferno sigil (and one of the random ones) on any of his lives. Last week, I ran Elite Inferno 4 or 5 times (I lost track) in full groups and I've seen the sigil from Inferno drop exactly once in all those runs.

As someone else mentioned, I have noticed named items dropping more often. But the Right Frame is elusive.

richieelias27
11-02-2011, 02:32 PM
You know why most people who run the Abbot raid are clamoring for it to stay difficult/be made harder? Because the only people who are even flagged for Abbot are powergamers. Everyone else started flagging and gave up as soon as they saw how much of a horrible grind it was.

A level 17 raid should not have a flagging mechanic which is longer and more difficult (grind-wise) than every single other raid in the game.

I mean seriously...

LeLoric
11-02-2011, 02:51 PM
The problem with the abbot raid (and the reason very few people actually care to run it) is that if no one knows how to do goggles (which generally means they are using an exploit cause no one does it without the exploit) then no one wants to do the raid.



Complete hogwash. There is no need to use exploits (i actually am unaware of one have never seen it used and run abbots quite a bit) there is no need to use DI/ww for ice either.

Abbot is very simple raid:

1. learn the puzzles
2. win
3. profit.

If you aren't willing to put some time in on part 1 why expect part 2 or 3.

Some of the best times I have had in this game are learning puzzles and how to do them.

Alleyna
11-02-2011, 02:56 PM
Instead of listening to new players who can't handle harder content asking that the game be made easier, how about we just have different difficulty levels so that new players could go into content on Normal and well geared characters that can handle harder content can go into the same content on Elite without being bored out of their minds?

I think that would be an amazing idea. I wish DDO had a feature like that...

Sarcasm aside, you would think this was the case. Before the stealth Abbot buff, normal/hard/elite were the exact same for all intents and purposes.

I was putting up LFMs for this raid twice a week and we'd have mostly success. Some times it would take 2-3 attempts (my most attempts in one night was 7), and I think there was only one day that we just absolutely couldn't win and I gave up. Point is, for PUGs on any difficulty, you could practice and learn and eventually beat it. I didn't get frustrated, I was continually learning myself (I love to lead tiles now :)), and I was willing to take and teach new people.

After the stealth-buff, in my opinion, the difference between difficulties still isn't that great. They jacked his hitpoints up so much on normal that any differences between difficulties seem minor. So, you may as well still go into any difficulty, especially with the new U12 perks. No reason not to do Elite still, even with PUGs.

I think they should have left his hitpoints alone on normal and done the increase on hard and elite. It is ridiculous that a party full of at least semi-geared 18-20s has to go through six infernos and have the healers chug mana pots for a NORMAL lvl 17 raid. Now I admit, I quit running the raid altogether after about the second week post-change. Now, I wouldn't take a group full of PUGs in there anymore. I want to have at least the core of my group consist of people I know can get the job done.

On Ghallanda, before the buff, I would see (multiple) LFMs daily for Abbot. Now, I maybe see one once a week. The people who are still running the raid aren't pugging it anymore.

Okay enough rambling. I just really really enjoyed the raid and liked the puzzles and didn't mind wiping occassionally to practice and to teach new people. Now it is so time-consuming and possibly resource-intensive that I have sadly stopped running this altogether.

So I agree with gloopy, make distinct differences in difficulties for this raid. Make elite HARD and get rewarded with those nice tokens to upgrade your gear. Revert his hitpoints on normal to allow new people a chance to learn the raid. Sure those running normal can still get their choice of loot on 20th (although I have to tell you, neither my bard nor my favored soul's 20ths had Litany on their end reward list), but they won't get to upgrade their raid loot until they get the token from elite.

xandariant
11-02-2011, 03:55 PM
All settings: abbot starts with immunity to blunt weapons has fire shield cold and is aided by 3 red named Litches (he can resummon 1 litch per inferno) and has displacement on him.

complete roids: remove blunt weapon immunity and remove one litch from his team
complete water: remove fire shield cold and one litch from his team
complete goggles : remove displacement and one litch from his team.
complete all : double damage from fire no litch companions and he loses the ability to summon litch companions during inferno.

Normal difficulty:
required: must complete at least 1 puzzle to have him come down and fight

Hard difficulty:
required must complete at least 2 puzzles to have him come down and fight

Elite difficulty:
required must complete all three puzzles to have him come down and fight
---------------------------

the litches add a level of difficulty on there own (especially if they are given the ability to use death aura which heals abbot for small amounts of hps kind of like the gnolls in shroud)
but it doesnt make all three puzzles manditory which will get more people attempting the raid other then the few guild groups or elitists groups that do it now.
/signed
Something like that would be great


While the raid isn't crazy hard .. the puzzles are the main reason that alot of people dont waste there time with the raid.

The second reason is flagging. The drop rates of the puzzle pieces are ******** i have a character who has all the pieces except one of the random ones .. have run vol and doomsphere at least 20 times each trying to get the last part and never get it.

Then i think as an artificer what do i need from there .. the answer is nothing. I would like a litney and a quiver ... but i dont need it ... all ready a ton of great gear and i dont need to farm for days just to get into the raid for one or two pieces of gear that i dont really require to be successful.

---------------

I dont know about you guys but i personally would be happier to farm the raid 20th runs on normal or hard with my suggestions then to bother doing it on any setting with the way the raid is now.

And that is why i stopped joining abbot raids almost 2 years ago ... cause its not fun ... its not worth the effort to flag or to find a group ... and the gear is not worth sweating over IMHO.
So many ppl think like that. That is why this raid dies, and a bit better loot wont change ppl mainds.
Time for Turbine to change the raid and not oly do cosmetics!!!


the problem isnt people learning them .. its people wanting to learn them ... goggles is the only one people actually have to learn ... it doesnt take a genius to DI someone and have them do water... it doesnt take a rocket sientist to do roids (it just takes simple instruction to all face center and look over the head of your opposing player for roids and shoot) ... goggles is the issue ... if True Seeing would work to see the puzzle then it would be a different story ... but the two people needing to co-ordinate and more often then not use screen hitching EXPLOIT to complete it .... that is the issue.

give people the ability to use true seeing in goggles and that alone will have many many more people running abbot. the puzzles dont need to be reused .... the puzzles need to be revamped to make them enjoyable.

If they reused the goggles in another raid or quest .. all that would happen is no one would run it .. just like abbot raid.
/signed again
We could just use some fun with doing this not only hardship. I find it hard to belive that devs cant see that...


hmm seem to me that was the general idea of this thread to make NORMAL a little more forgiving to newbs so they can pratcice/learn the quest and leave hard/elite as is
True, but some ppl just cant read and think only about raising dificulty and whining its not enaugh.


I'd have to say your group was very lucky. My TR2 hasn't had any luck with the Inferno sigil (and one of the random ones) on any of his lives. Last week, I ran Elite Inferno 4 or 5 times (I lost track) in full groups and I've seen the sigil from Inferno drop exactly once in all those runs.

As someone else mentioned, I have noticed named items dropping more often. But the Right Frame is elusive.

You know why most people who run the Abbot raid are clamoring for it to stay difficult/be made harder? Because the only people who are even flagged for Abbot are powergamers. Everyone else started flagging and gave up as soon as they saw how much of a horrible grind it was.

A level 17 raid should not have a flagging mechanic which is longer and more difficult (grind-wise) than every single other raid in the game.

I mean seriously...
Time to make those chests to drop with ratio like 150%.
I mean 100% for 1 and 50% for extra one, random as it is but it would give ppl geting all part doing average 1-2 runs per quest, and that is probalby similar to normal flagging - doing quest once to proced.

Roderickus
11-02-2011, 04:43 PM
I agree with the fact that the abbot raid is one of the hardest to pug and most punishing for a single mistake. I wouldn't even mind it staying the way it is if they would fix all the issues with it. Specifically those involving inferno and the ice wand.

The challenge in the raid should not come from unavoidable and unpreventable glitches.

I have had a person toss an island and it never materialize.
I have had a person toss an island, we all jump and land on it and die.
I have had a person toss an island, we all jump and land on it then die to inferno.

You can run this raid flawlessly and still lose. After the next update there wont even be the "cleric who DI'd themselves and recovers the raid" option.
If ur foot even touched water surface ul die. Happened to me more than twice upon hiting the isle.
If u jump in late u can still get caught by his inferno, try using remove curse pot, might help.

It's like Epic VoN6 now. U need more endurance and DPS overall. If u get someone that can do tiles in 1-2 rounds ur good. If it's over 2 better just ddoor out. If other puzzles fail, ur screwed.

ToKu
11-02-2011, 09:59 PM
If ur foot even touched water surface ul die. Happened to me more than twice upon hiting the isle.
If u jump in late u can still get caught by his inferno, try using remove curse pot, might help.

It's like Epic VoN6 now. U need more endurance and DPS overall. If u get someone that can do tiles in 1-2 rounds ur good. If it's over 2 better just ddoor out. If other puzzles fail, ur screwed.

According to my screen myself and most of the raid landed dead center and they all died (I am usually DI'd.) Nowadays I just hop in the water, but after the next update that wont be an option.

As for the inferno part, we were on the island before inferno even went off and it still killed us.

I run with a fairly static group on my server every time I am off timer, these are not groups of first timers. Tiles takes a while and its stupid that a graphics bug or latency issue can cause a raid to wipe.

Im not even talking about the puzzles, because those are almost always passed with no problems. Most times I experience issues with this raid it involves a bugged inferno or a bugged ice island or both.

Stormbringr
11-02-2011, 10:43 PM
The flagging mechanic is only a small part of why there are not many LFM's. There are many flagged who no longer wish to run this raid (like myself) because it is ridiculously boring while everyone waits around for tiles to complete. The only guy not bored out of his mind is the one that leads the second side for tiles. Then after all that wait, you have a 50/50 chance of wiping on the first inferno if you're in a PUG. If you do complete, you have another 50/50 chance of being skunked. Waste of time and boring. Also very intimidating for first timers.

I really like the idea of swapping the order of puzzles and abbot attack sequence, but then again there will probably be a lot more puzzle wipes now. If they eliminated one side of tiles, all of the puzzles would probably finish closer to the same time, there wouldn't be nearly as much standing around, and the quest wouldn't be so boring. Would it be so hard to build a bridge on the left side?

nix_vali
11-02-2011, 11:26 PM
I have an IDEA.
Instead of listening to all those old players that make this game harder for all new ppl, we can make something easier form time to time? How about this?

I have a better idea, how about u start and actually learn the puzzles instead of just joining groups and pike then come here on the forums and complain and ask for easyer things everyday?
Heres a couple questions ; how many training abott runs u joined, at which one of the 3 puzzles are u good at?
This is the reason i make selective groups when i run abott on Orien and besides the few competent guilds/channels nobady else is running the raid even on normal because ppl like u never bothered to learn the raid but preffered to pike it and now that ppl seen that they look for otheres who are willing to help whit the completion.

knightgf
11-02-2011, 11:35 PM
If you want the opportunity to open easier raids, I suggest you push for the 'casual' setting to be open on raids. In all honesty, most pug groups im in have a high rate of failure to do normal raids, and since most pugs don't learn or learn very little, what's the point of making them repeat normal? At least for their lack of ability, they get less loot, so in a way, it makes up for it. I'm not sure why raids never had the option of opening on casual; I can understand restricting the use of some DDO store items and such inside, and maybe hirelings, but im not sure why it would be a good idea to restrict the casual option, other than saving development time.

QuantumFX
11-03-2011, 01:38 AM
I love how too many people in this thread assume that the Black Abbot is the “hard” part of the raid that needs to be “nerfed”. The problem with this raid has always been the puzzles. There’s a whole lot of “Sounds good but plays like $#1t” design mistakes in that raid.

It’s not like you can simply pull up a “lights out” or “mastermind” simulator to learn the puzzles. You have to go into the raid, get to the puzzles and then you only get one chance to eff up the puzzle. Rather than allowing the players to develop the skills they need to improve at the puzzle, this mechanic hinders players from being able to adapt to each other’s styles for solving the puzzle.

Tiles and water should really be changed to the following - Put rez shrines and the soulstone teleport location on the start side of the puzzle. This way, when someone fails, their soulstone will wind up on the start side of the puzzle. This allows the runner and the guide (or wand whippers) to work out any timing issues without 10+ minute breaks between the attempts. The equipment damage will determine how many times a group will try a single puzzle.

Tiles should also have some short range outlines of the tiles. Just illuminating the tile that the player is currently standing on would be sufficent. Having to come up with ******** patchwork solutions like measuring tumbling distances and shadowing others just shows off how badly the tile puzzle was designed.

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 02:37 AM
I love how too many people in this thread assume that the Black Abbot is the “hard” part of the raid that needs to be “nerfed”. The problem with this raid has always been the puzzles. There’s a whole lot of “Sounds good but plays like $#1t” design mistakes in that raid.

It’s not like you can simply pull up a “lights out” or “mastermind” simulator to learn the puzzles. You have to go into the raid, get to the puzzles and then you only get one chance to eff up the puzzle. Rather than allowing the players to develop the skills they need to improve at the puzzle, this mechanic hinders players from being able to adapt to each other’s styles for solving the puzzle.

Tiles and water should really be changed to the following - Put rez shrines and the soulstone teleport location on the start side of the puzzle. This way, when someone fails, their soulstone will wind up on the start side of the puzzle. This allows the runner and the guide (or wand whippers) to work out any timing issues without 10+ minute breaks between the attempts. The equipment damage will determine how many times a group will try a single puzzle.

Tiles should also have some short range outlines of the tiles. Just illuminating the tile that the player is currently standing on would be sufficent. Having to come up with ******** patchwork solutions like measuring tumbling distances and shadowing others just shows off how badly the tile puzzle was designed.

Well the Black Abbot may not be the part of the raid that's toughest, but he's still a fairly hard fight if the group is not particularly well-coordinated, especially if you had a few deaths from the puzzles and even more especially if he decides to spam several infernos in a row, because unless you're in a very good group an inferno will always kill a few players.

And it is incredibly frustrating to get past those boring puzzles where only a few people actually have something to do for most of it, only to wipe in the Abbot fight.

I would support a change to tiles to make it easier and more importantly shorter, because it's really boring to have finished asteroids or ice only to have to wait 5 more minutes for the other side of tiles to be done, and even more so if that side is failed so that the group has to recall and reform.


I do not mind hard raids, I do not mind puzzles and activities not related to fighting in raids, I like having a challenge, but the fact is that Abbot is badly designed, and ends up being boring and frustrating to most people who run it.

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 02:46 AM
I have a better idea, how about u start and actually learn the puzzles instead of just joining groups and pike then come here on the forums and complain and ask for easyer things everyday?
Heres a couple questions ; how many training abott runs u joined, at which one of the 3 puzzles are u good at?
This is the reason i make selective groups when i run abott on Orien and besides the few competent guilds/channels nobady else is running the raid even on normal because ppl like u never bothered to learn the raid but preffered to pike it and now that ppl seen that they look for otheres who are willing to help whit the completion.

I'm sorry but Abbot is tough even for good players who know the raid. I've been in 2 PUGs now composed mainly of veterans who knew all the puzzles and yet we wiped both times.
It's not because I as the newbie was piking either, as a cleric with DI I did ice easily, and I even took the time to try it the regular way while waiting for tiles.

The fact is that even for good players who know the raid, it's tough, boring and frustrating all at once, for various reasons.


Also, training abbot runs? What training abbot runs? All the Abbot LFMs have "know it" or send tell with puzzle" on them.
I found 1 training run in 5 months of playing DDO on 2 servers, and that was made by someone who didn't know the raid, only 2 vets showed up to help us learn it.
Before you accuse newbies of refusing to learn, maybe you should offer to teach sometime. If no one takes you up on it, then you can throw stones at would-be pikers if you want, but until then you're only looking like a narrow-minded elitist with that kind of statement.

krtkoo
11-03-2011, 03:48 AM
I have to agree that abbot could be a bit easier. It is a raid where one mistake or one lag could wipe all party. With DI during inferno it could be hindered, but still this raid is imo too hard for doing it in pug.

There is no reason not to make it easier for normal setting, that people can learn it. also there is imo no reason not to be easy for epic geared chars. Abbot even on elite is lvl 19 raid – less then TOD and still it is imho much harder.

I dont know why players cry on forums – make it harder, its too easy etc. When you have good player skills and you have geared chars, why shloudnt you run lower lvl raids rly fast? At last you spent time and resources to grind your equip and this was the result. Now Abbot is getting tougher and tougher and powergamers will enjoy it again. But other people wont have a chance to join your groups and to run it and it will be even less run raid in the game.

p.s. I have ran it mby 80+ times and like that raid, every char I have is flagged for it (dont consider it as hard flagging, cos I rly like necro IV pack), but I wouldnt join abbot pug. I had joined some pugs but it was just waste of time from my point of view – and just because people in general, even if they manage to flag for it, are too lazy to watch youtube videos or info on ddowiki what to do in the raid (but the sad thing is, even if they read about it and watched videos, the raid is so difficult that inferno wiped them. there is no possibility to run it on easier setting, where for example inferno would do some dmg, but it wouldnt kill people).

Niv-mizzet
11-03-2011, 04:03 AM
I have to agree that Abbot is possibly the worst designed encounter in the game, and mainly due to inconsistency in the puzzle difficulty. Your possible roles in Abbot puzzles are:
-1. /sleep and go AFK close enough to hear when someone announces whether you wiped or not.

-2. Throw rocks at other rocks, pretty much an insta win unless one of the rockthrowers in braindamaged or dc's, followed by AFK until someone says you wiped or not.

-3. Mario ice platform level. Short enough to not make the raid go AFK waiting for you, hard enough that you COULD fail if you got careless. However you will still AFK yourself after beating it along with the asteroids group.

-4. The main offender of the balance made by the other two puzzles. You and one other hardcore player must defeat the terrifying combination of vanishing invisible platforms and their partner LAG, the main villain of DDO. All while 10 other people are chatting, alt tabbing to look at interesting things on the net, going to get fast food, taking a shower...(I have done all 4 of these during Abbot raids and NEVER gotten back from AFK late.) And then after you put your heart and soul into getting through this horrible...thing so that the raid can actually win, the guy who /slept in asteroids pulls your staff or book.

I also kind of agree about normal difficulty not being different enough functionally so that its actually easier in any real way. I've heard heresay about tiles vanishing slower, or not vanishing slower, or more blues showing up, etc etc, but never anything certain. That's a seperate issue, however.

The main thing I would spend 5k xp to wish out of existence in this raid is the awful wait time for everyone but goggles. Yeah I'm aware there are some pretty godly duos out there who can make it across both sides before asteroids finishes, but in over 100 abbot runs, I've seen that happen all of twice, the rest of the time being the usual fall-asleep-waiting-for-goggles. Half the time I see successful goggles runs, its due to some 'meta-game' approach, such as people co-oping it in the same room IRL, one person running both toons etc etc.

Even if it made the raid even harder, I would much rather have something to do than stare at stars or water until I hear a ding followed with 'wipe' despite there only being 1 hp bar empty. Even if it was like having the entire raid have to do each puzzle or some craziness, I'd find that more fun than going AFK, or knowing the entire raid is AFK waiting for me.

Blackmoors
11-03-2011, 04:05 AM
Upon reading this thread, I see theres a lot of disinformation concerning Abbot raid. First of all, if you (or someone else in the party) fails one of the chalenges (aka puzzles), its not "game over", ive seen people recall when that happens and its not needed, you can still beat him down, re-raise the dead party remebers and go again.

Secondly, its not a hard raid, people just dont want to learn the mechanics of it. Is there an easier challenge than asteroids? Is it hard to learn how to do it? Haven't you ever played a FPS before...? How about phase? Cant you (1) follow a dot in the map or (2) turn and face the player leading, lock your camera and follow him by simply moving your cursor...? What about Ice? I can think of at least 3 ways to do it: (1) do it properly by having two players take turns and form platforms using the ice wands till they reach both sarcophagi, (2) give DI to someone and make him run, destroy the sarcophagi and get the wands or (3) get a Dark Monk and make him walk over the water...

So quite frankly, if your not able to do any of this 3 easy challenges, maybe you shouldn't be entitled to their prizes. You can always do Shrouds if you just want to hack and slash stuff, dont go ruin one of the raids that is actually different and represents some resemblance to what DnD challenges should be like!

As always, IMO!
Regards, Black

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 04:20 AM
Upon reading this thread, I see theres a lot of disinformation concerning Abbot raid. First of all, if you (or someone else in the party) fails one of the chalenges (aka puzzles), its not "game over", ive seen people recall when that happens and its not needed, you can still beat him down, re-raise the dead party remebers and go again.

Secondly, its not a hard raid, people just dont want to learn the mechanics of it. Is there an easier challenge than asteroids? Is it hard to learn how to do it? Haven't you ever played a FPS before...? How about phase? Cant you (1) follow a dot in the map or (2) turn and face the player leading, lock your camera and follow him by simply moving your cursor...? What about Ice? I can think of at least 3 ways to do it: (1) do it properly by having two players take turns and form platforms using the ice wands till they reach both sarcophagi, (2) give DI to someone and make him run, destroy the sarcophagi and get the wands or (3) get a Dark Monk and make him walk over the water...

So quite frankly, if your not able to do any of this 3 easy challenges, maybe you shouldn't be entitled to their prizes. You can always do Shrouds if you just want to hack and slash stuff, dont go ruin one of the raids that is actually different and represents some resemblance to what DnD challenges should be like!

As always, IMO!
Regards, Black

1. Yes, you can go beat on the Abbot and retry a puzzle. The fact is, however, that this is widely considered less time-efficient and more risky than just recall and reform.

2. Asteroid is easy, from what I hear, though I've never really tried it.
Ice is not that hard the normal way, as for the two "cheezy" ways, they'll be removed in U 12, which is what prompted this thread.

As for Goggles not being hard though... Well I'm glad for you if you find it easy, but even vets who've done it lots of times still fail it often. I've seen around a 70% death rate for people in it, across two runs.
Also you only put 3 or 4 people in asteroids now, there are no /sleep people anymore because everyone not needed elsewhere goes in tiles to give the raid another chance at succeeding in that puzzle, since it's the only one people can really fail consistently.

And even after beating those, you're definitely not guaranteed a completion now, because only very good groups can survive if the Abbot suddenly decides to call 2 or 3 infernos in a row. In both of my tries, inferno spamming is what wiped my group, because any inferno will usually kill a few people.

Personally, I think the Abbot should have a longer cooldown on his specials, especially inferno, since it's the main one that can wipe a raid if people with the ice wands don't react fast enough, or the healers don't run to the ice pad fast enough.

Partydeluxe
11-03-2011, 04:43 AM
I don't know why people are whining about the tiles puzzle when in most pugs I've joined it's usually roids that fails due to god knows whatever reason that happens..

I have actually been known to organize training runs in abbot and they have been quite succesfull.

Anyway, as I have said many times before I think Abbot is the most fun, closest-to-DnD-feeling, best raid Turbine has ever made!

Stop piking and instead of /sleep just volunteer to step into tiles to try and learn it and most of the times people will try to get you across, you will fail the first 2-5 times but that's how I learned anyway.
I have seen SO many pikers just plain up front refusing to try anything but roids..it's rediculous.

The only change I can imagine is a revert to the old amount of HP, thats it.

Nooooo touchy the puzzles!

Partydeluxe
11-03-2011, 04:48 AM
1. saying stuff about it's so haaaaard...

So after two tries you have given up and went and post this, after never having actually seen all of the puzzles nor having completed a single abbot raid?

Nice.



1. Personally, I think the Abbot should have a longer cooldown on his specials, especially inferno

You just got some bad luck, yes there should be a minimum amount of time between 'ferno's I'll grant you that. Just keep trying and you will learn to love it like many have.

Blackmoors
11-03-2011, 04:52 AM
1. Yes, you can go beat on the Abbot and retry a puzzle. The fact is, however, that this is widely considered less time-efficient and more risky than just recall and reform.

2. Asteroid is easy, from what I hear, though I've never really tried it.
Ice is not that hard the normal way, as for the two "cheezy" ways, they'll be removed in U 12, which is what prompted this thread.

As for Goggles not being hard though... Well I'm glad for you if you find it easy, but even vets who've done it lots of times still fail it often. I've seen around a 70% death rate for people in it, across two runs.
Also you only put 3 or 4 people in asteroids now, there are no /sleep people anymore because everyone not needed elsewhere goes in tiles to give the raid another chance at succeeding in that puzzle, since it's the only one people can really fail consistently.

And even after beating those, you're definitely not guaranteed a completion now, because only very good groups can survive if the Abbot suddenly decides to call 2 or 3 infernos in a row. In both of my tries, inferno spamming is what wiped my group, because any inferno will usually kill a few people.

Personally, I think the Abbot should have a longer cool-down on his specials, especially inferno, since it's the main one that can wipe a raid if people with the ice wands don't react fast enough, or the healers don't run to the ice pad fast enough.

Well, heres the "normal" tactic in terms of distributing players;

:: 3 scouts, one for each door, shout which doors leads to each puzzle;
:: 1 goes to Ice (making 2 in that challenge);
:: 2 or 3 go to asteroids (making it 3 or 4 depending on the experience of players);
:: 5 or 6 go to Phase (making it at least 6 there);

Lets assume Ice and Asteroids are completed (since they are a rather easy challenge) with 0 deaths. You now have 2 players with Ice Wands and 4 Players with Asteroids. Thous 6 players can pick up the Wands and Asteroids that will continue to spawn each couple of minutes, meaning when the all group meets up, you should pass out Ice Wands to at least 2 other players, making it 4 players with wands.

Now lets talk about phase group. You have at least 6 players there. You have all time in the world to prepare a "safer" path. Time it, test it and lead one player at a time. Assuming only half makes it through to each side (making it 50% death), you now have all challenges done and 3 players dead on the "main" platform. Send one player to scout (preferably someone from Phase and not a healer and even better if its a caster and does some FWs to kill some mobs), shout when the abbot does Inferno or the player is encased - rest of the players jump in, raise the dead ones (assuming the scout died there should be 4 players dead), asteroid players need to have the stones at hand to free encased people and ice players should pass a wand or two to a couple of other players (preferably casters and/or healers).

Now on the fight itself - have the melees get the aggro so that casters and healers don't get it and have their SP drained. The casters and healers should gather at NW, get some AoE spells there and get ready for Inferno. Healers should target the Abbot and cast Mass heals to do damage and heal at the same time. Casters can throw spells to the abbot being the more effective Disintegrate and Meteor Swarm. When Inferno happens, you should shout out and lay the Ice platform in NW (or any other place really, just let people know in advance were you gonna do it). If all went well, you now have 4 players with wands, making it less likely that all fail to cast the platform. Players can take some Inferno damage if they are slow, you can heal it thou just as long as you remove the curse that Inferno does (You can also use any spell absorption Item here). Repeat till the Abbot is dead...

Is that hard really...? Do you need a mega internet connection for that or special players skills to coordinate your moves...? OFC everyone should be prepared for this raid, Bring some pots for heal yourself and remove your curse. Dont use FF equipment (Abbot does telekinesis) unless your jumping into Ice platform when Inferno is casted). Have some equipment that gives you resistance to fire/electric/cold for when you die or get dispelled. Have some spell absorption item so that if you take a Inferno you can survive. Etc, etc. Its not mandatory but you can better prepare yourself for the raid.

The only suggestion I would give would be that, when players die in the water (of the "main" fighting platform), their stone should appear on the platform. I dont know if its intended as extra challenge to raise players that fall and die in water because its really hard to raise them, specially when you need to swim up, jump and grab the platform and have like 1-2 secs to get the raise! Other than that, thank you for upgrading the loot ;)

Khuul99
11-03-2011, 04:54 AM
I am one of few that actually like the raid :)

However, there is a few mechanics that should be worked upon.

Wand misfire is like bad (but if you have a decent raidgroup you have multiple people with them just in case). Though, the misfire isn't very common in my experience.

Encasing the whole raid on going in is also a pretty annoying thing.

I just don't think much need to be done, the one thing I can think of is maybe the randomness of the feature that happens when you zone back into abbot after solved puzzles.
Maybe set the first event that goes off to not be inferno or encasing, that way you don't need a scout to wait for inferno and you know you have at least 30 seconds to zone in before something bad as inferno happens.

grgurius
11-03-2011, 05:00 AM
*snip*

And even after beating those, you're definitely not guaranteed a completion now, because only very good groups can survive if the Abbot suddenly decides to call 2 or 3 infernos in a row. In both of my tries, inferno spamming is what wiped my group, because any inferno will usually kill a few people.

Personally, I think the Abbot should have a longer cooldown on his specials, especially inferno, since it's the main one that can wipe a raid if people with the ice wands don't react fast enough, or the healers don't run to the ice pad fast enough.

Cooldown on abbots special attacks is 6 second iirc, but he newer uses same one in a row, so inferno spaming is impossible.

Blackmoors
11-03-2011, 05:02 AM
I am one of few that actually like the raid :)

However, there is a few mechanics that should be worked upon.

Wand misfire is like bad (but if you have a decent raidgroup you have multiple people with them just in case). Though, the misfire isn't very common in my experience.

Encasing the whole raid on going in is also a pretty annoying thing.

I just don't think much need to be done, the one thing I can think of is maybe the randomness of the feature that happens when you zone back into abbot after solved puzzles.
Maybe set the first event that goes off to not be inferno or encasing, that way you don't need a scout to wait for inferno and you know you have at least 30 seconds to zone in before something bad as inferno happens.

See my post above:

(1) only one people goes inside to scout, dont send the entire party. Scout shouts when encased and the rest get in or he shouts for inferno and you should let inferno pass and then go in.

(2) pass wands to other players so that you have 4 players with wands making it the miss-click chances better for your side. Also have in mind that many a time the problem is with the player using the wand because you nedd to point it correctly and click on it!

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 05:13 AM
So after two tries you have given up and went and post this, after never having actually seen all of the puzzles nor having completed a single abbot raid?

Nice.


Where did I say I had given up exactly? I don't mind a challenge, and just because I think the Abbot raid is too hard for its level doesn't mean I won't keep trying.

All I can say is that wiping twice in a row (not counting the fact that both wipes had 1 recall and reform btw, so it's more like 4 wipes) is much more than I got in ToD (where I'm at 5 completions and 2 wipes) which is in theory a harder raid since it's level 20.

More importantly, if you're not part of the people doing goggles, it's very boring and it's also very frustrating because completion appears to be more based on luck than on skill (for instance, getting an easy path in goggles versus a hard one, or the Abbot using Inferno 3 times in a row).

No matter how I feel about the raid (and it's definitely not one of my favourites so far) I'll still keep trying to complete it simply because I like playing casters and divines and Abbot has some of the best loot for those classes.


You just got some bad luck, yes there should be a minimum amount of time between 'ferno's I'll grant you that. Just keep trying and you will learn to love it like many have.

I don't think many people love it to be honest. Even the ones who seem to run it regularly only do it in the hopes of getting what they want from their 20th, 40th or whatever completions.
I know that's what the guildie who got me into Abbot runs feels about it anyway.

In both groups I was in there was only one person who seemed to enjoy the raid.
I've found a lot more people who've simply crossed it off their list of raids to do, because while the loot may be nice, the raid itself is not fun to play.


replies in red

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 05:26 AM
Cooldown on abbots special attacks is 6 second iirc, but he newer uses same one in a row, so inferno spaming is impossible.

Spamming may have been an exaggeration, but I distinctly remember getting an inferno, then getting back on the platform to rez the dead people and before I was finished doing it (using the true resurrection spell, resurrection and raise dead scrolls, so it was fairly fast), getting another inferno, rinse and repeat until everyone's dead.

Of course it didn't help that most of the other people who could rez (including the other cleric) kept dying, so a better group would have lived but frankly a 1 min cooldown on inferno wouldn't go amiss.
It's the only attack I know of in the game outside of epic raids that can outright wipe a whole raid group, being able to cast it that often (every 15 or 20 seconds) seems pretty harsh.

Why exactly is eVelah's fire breath, which is about as deadly, much easier to avoid and much less frequent despite the fact it is supposed to be a much tougher raid?

It would be like if Horoth now used his disintegrate every time it came off CD, not only on the tank, but on random members of the group as well. I'm sure there would be a huge increase in ToD failures if he started doing that, and a huge outcry on the forums.

That there hasn't been one about the buff to the Abbot (including more frequent Infernos and triple hp IIRC) only testifies as to how few people actually run that raid.

Xenostrata
11-03-2011, 05:36 AM
Cooldown on abbots special attacks is 6 second iirc, but he newer uses same one in a row, so inferno spaming is impossible.

This might be how it's intended to work, but it isn't always the case (or, at least, wasn't always the case).

In the great lag-fest that was u9.1, I ran a string of Abbot's with a group of very competent players. It took us 7 tries to beat it (and this was before thy jacked up his hp). Some causes for failure were:
Two consecutive infernos, in which we jumped back on to the platform just in time to get hit with the second one.
Encase and Inferno, in which he infernoed, we all jumped onto the ice island, and he encased ALL of us there and we had to watch as we were all crushed to death.
Various tiles being out-of-time with what we were seeing, etc.

Partydeluxe
11-03-2011, 05:49 AM
getting what they want from their 20th, 40th or whatever completions.

Which goes to prove that the raid is being completed on a fairly regular basis. Yes there are some minor details that could be looked into in order to decrease the random-bug-wipe-factor but honestly even those can be avoided quite easily (as Blackmoors pointed out).

The only times I have been in more than 2 wipes in a row was with bad pugs. The groups I usually run with get it done within 2 runs 95% of the time.

Me and others with me like it because:
It's not insanely difficult, it's not a gear-check like lots of other raids, it just takes practice, patience, persistance and most of all player skill.

Khuul99
11-03-2011, 06:27 AM
See my post above:

(1) only one people goes inside to scout, dont send the entire party. Scout shouts when encased and the rest get in or he shouts for inferno and you should let inferno pass and then go in.

(2) pass wands to other players so that you have 4 players with wands making it the miss-click chances better for your side. Also have in mind that many a time the problem is with the player using the wand because you nedd to point it correctly and click on it!

I know that. The point wasn't how to minimize the risk.

However, you can still end up encased if the scout spots inferno, waits until it's over lags some and then people jump into the next effect which if it is encase and it hit's the zoneing in party is a near certain showstopper.

It's not very common but it does happen even with scouts. That the chance is there at all is what I'm against and the fact that you "need" to send in a scout (that many times dies to inferno or encased) is abit lame. Too much pure luck in that mechanic at zone in.

I am aware that this isn't much of a problem most of the time, especially if you have most on voice but if you do this in a random PUG the chance for a raidwipe is higher.

Just remove the chance that the first effect is showstoppers such as inferno or encase and all is well with the last fight imo.

Sarisa
11-03-2011, 07:06 AM
My groups send a non-bluebar in to scout after the puzzles. That way, if there is an Inferno, their SP isn't drained away by that stupid curse.

I'm usually on Ice, mostly DI but I still do it "legit" once in a while, and usually am on wand duty. I get a misfire about one out of every three or four runs, so one out of every 10-12 wand uses. That would put it about one every other run. It depends a lot on how much the instance is lagging, which of course is dependent on EVERYONE's connection. Since Sarlona is a heavy Chinese server, you can't guarantee decent connections.

I also often get asked to trade a wand after the puzzles. That has to be one of the dumbest things there is, taking a healer out of commission for upwards of 10 seconds. Improve this by allowing you to just DROP the items to the ground from your inventory, like you do with the Titan crystals.

Then the sheer amount of bugs needs to be addressed.
No difference in HP between N/H/E
Wand misfires, especially when you're standing still
Full party encasement
Asteroids starting at the platform as you zone in

At least the Greensteel/weapon eating bug was (hopefully) fixed.

Beating down the Abbot after a puzzle failure, after the HP change, just isn't worth the time and resource expense. It was fine with a 50k HP Abbot, but not with a 135k HP Abbot.

There used to be training runs on Sarlona occasionally, maybe once a month or so, but basically nothing since u10 raised his HP.

MaximumCharisma
11-03-2011, 07:26 AM
I like the abbot raid (perhaps because I can do any of the puzzles) but I also have noticed some of the random bugs that others have. Personally I could live with all bugs and whatnot that there are if we did two things:

1) Lower platform in the center or lower water level to be able to swim back reliably (like korthos key search)

2) Make scheduled infernos. Although this has probably been suggested, why not have the Abbot Inferno at 80%, 50% then once more at 25%. Or something like that. Many bosses have these scheduled special attacks and it provides new players and old with more or less the same challenge, but less Abbot lottery.

my 2cp

nix_vali
11-03-2011, 09:33 AM
I'm sorry but Abbot is tough even for good players who know the raid. I've been in 2 PUGs now composed mainly of veterans who knew all the puzzles and yet we wiped both times.
It's not because I as the newbie was piking either, as a cleric with DI I did ice easily, and I even took the time to try it the regular way while waiting for tiles.

The fact is that even for good players who know the raid, it's tough, boring and frustrating all at once, for various reasons.


Also, training abbot runs? What training abbot runs? All the Abbot LFMs have "know it" or send tell with puzzle" on them.
I found 1 training run in 5 months of playing DDO on 2 servers, and that was made by someone who didn't know the raid, only 2 vets showed up to help us learn it.
Before you accuse newbies of refusing to learn, maybe you should offer to teach sometime. If no one takes you up on it, then you can throw stones at would-be pikers if you want, but until then you're only looking like a narrow-minded elitist with that kind of statement.


Good players have trouble whit abott? err no they dont trust me.
Training runs were posted alot on my server by some guilds who first completed abott and after by quite alot of pug groups.
And ya if i accused ppl of piking and not willing to learn yes i did, but not newbies, the OP is not a newbie , he has more then 20 completions on 1 toon alone im preatty sure because i know wat im talking about here , and anyway heres just an example i know ppl on my server whit +80 completions who still refuse to learn tiles .
And yes i do take new ppl but only the ones willing to learn as i said, to bad ppl take only wat they want out of the text.I will help a player who wants to but im not going to help the "dont tell me how to play this game" ,"i dont need to break DR", "i do major dmg" and the like .
Ohh and i am the norrow minded elitist haha.Its the only thing ppl like u and the op are good at calling everyone who is willing to learn and complete raids/quests elitists.I dont knwo who is more norrow minded here...

I would actually like to have more raids as the abott is , instead of the 1 room 1 big boss beat him to death ones...

Vanshilar
11-03-2011, 09:44 AM
Wow, so much hyperbole going around in this thread:


The problem with the abbot raid (and the reason very few people actually care to run it) is that if no one knows how to do goggles (which generally means they are using an exploit cause no one does it without the exploit) then no one wants to do the raid.

I don't know where you're from (although based on the thread I'm guessing Sarlona) but I don't know of anyone using any exploits for tiles on Orien. There's no need to. Yet we still get completions relatively easily.


I'm sorry but Abbot is tough even for good players who know the raid. I've been in 2 PUGs now composed mainly of veterans who knew all the puzzles and yet we wiped both times.

Veterans that knew all the puzzles and yet wiped both times? Either there was lag, or they're not as vet as they thought. And it's not particularly tough for good players. Sometimes we'll even grief guildmates on tiles and try to get each other to die because it's relatively straightforward once you have a bit of practice.


Also, training abbot runs? What training abbot runs? All the Abbot LFMs have "know it" or send tell with puzzle" on them.

There's plenty of resources if you're looking to learn how to do tiles. You can just google around for videos on it, if nothing else. You can also just form your own group to beat down on the abbot and look for tiles (incidentally, I've done that before to practice tiles, solo as a rogue after the HP was buffed). Why is it someone else's responsbility for you to learn by providing training runs for you?


I have to agree that Abbot is possibly the worst designed encounter in the game, and mainly due to inconsistency in the puzzle difficulty.

I can think of far worse encounters in the game. I thought people were just complaining about one that ends today. Funny how whenever someone doesn't like something it's always automatically the worst in the game.



-4. The main offender of the balance made by the other two puzzles. You and one other hardcore player must defeat the terrifying combination of vanishing invisible platforms and their partner LAG, the main villain of DDO. All while 10 other people are chatting, alt tabbing to look at interesting things on the net, going to get fast food, taking a shower...(I have done all 4 of these during Abbot raids and NEVER gotten back from AFK late.) And then after you put your heart and soul into getting through this horrible...thing so that the raid can actually win, the guy who /slept in asteroids pulls your staff or book.

...

The main thing I would spend 5k xp to wish out of existence in this raid is the awful wait time for everyone but goggles. Yeah I'm aware there are some pretty godly duos out there who can make it across both sides before asteroids finishes, but in over 100 abbot runs, I've seen that happen all of twice, the rest of the time being the usual fall-asleep-waiting-for-goggles. Half the time I see successful goggles runs, its due to some 'meta-game' approach, such as people co-oping it in the same room IRL, one person running both toons etc etc.

So far in the runs I've been in since I started keeping track, asteroids is the last to finish around 65% of the time or so. That's right, the majority of the time, tiles and ice will finish before asteroids, which is more or less a timed puzzle so can't really be sped up. Apparently the guild has some godly duos or something. But the hyperbole brings up another point, namely why is your raid strategy to have 10 people pike and only 2 people doing what you admit is the bottleneck to the raid? It's some serious cognitive dissonance to stick too few people on one raid objective and then complain that because of this strategy it's too boring to everyone else who has to wait for them, as if that's the raid's fault.


As for Goggles not being hard though... Well I'm glad for you if you find it easy, but even vets who've done it lots of times still fail it often. I've seen around a 70% death rate for people in it, across two runs.
Also you only put 3 or 4 people in asteroids now, there are no /sleep people anymore because everyone not needed elsewhere goes in tiles to give the raid another chance at succeeding in that puzzle, since it's the only one people can really fail consistently.

I hope you're not saying or implying that vets will fail it 70% of the time. More likely that the 70% death rate was very bad luck and/or people that aren't very experienced at it. Also, you guys need to make up your mind. Is it that there's too few people going to tiles right now or too many? And I would've thought that not having people idle in a raid by /sleep would be a good thing.

The thread's complaints are sort of schizophrenic. Is it the abbot's puzzles that are difficult, or the fight? I personally think the puzzles are fairly tame once you've spent some time learning how they work. Not much different than something like the puzzles in Shroud (sorry, I'm not aware of an offline way to practice timing the lieutenants in part 2 either). The tiles I think is the most interesting of the puzzles in Abbot because you are given a new set each time, as opposed to something like Shroud where there's a fairly limited number of combinations to know (and even then, you don't really have to know them, you can just follow one of the solving methods). And if you're saying that Abbot should be easy to complete even for a group that doesn't bother to learn how the puzzles work, well then, I don't know what to tell you.

The fight is also not particularly difficult in theory if not in execution. There are ways around getting the whole group encased, and there's enough time to run around and get off the platform before inferno hits. A lot of the issues with the fight revolve more around certain bugs (such as ice wand misfiring -- but that can be mitigated by having multiple wand people, or Abbot's cooldown timer not working; I've seen people get encased on the ice island during inferno, and people getting encased in midair right after the Abbot TKed them), but that'll exist for every raid. And of course, lag. But again, that's not unique to Abbot either. Velah's breaths can be timed but that's no help if you're lagged out trying to run behind the pillar. Putting 5 healers on the Horoth tank is no help if there's a lag spike. And so forth.

Like many other quests, successful completion of Abbot comes down to party coordination and knowledge, rather than just raw numbers (i.e. DPS, etc.). If it seems like a daunting raid, the solution is to figure it out, not to complain about its difficulty with only a superficial understanding and experience of how the raid mechanics work. I think well-built raids should actually focus more on tactics rather than just having the beefiest gear (although I do think having more gear should still be helpful -- just not as much), and I think Abbot scores well in that regard (it seems like Lord of Blades also score well, at least in the few times I've been there with no lag). Certainly more interesting than many raids like Shroud where lately it really just comes down to identifying the PUG or PUGs that are wantonly killing lieutenants and recovering from them before the healers run out of SP.

in4theride75
11-03-2011, 12:59 PM
..?

Good players have trouble whit abott? err no they dont trust me.
Yeah, that's a falsehood. I've seen and been in groups on Orien server with your guild HB, RI, and PK, to name the big ones, that have failed on the raid and sometimes consecutively.

Training runs were posted alot on my server by some guilds who first completed abott and after by quite alot of pug groups.
Haven't seen a "training run" on Orien for nearly 6 months unless you "know people that know people."

I would actually like to have more raids as the abott is , instead of the 1 room 1 big boss beat him to death ones...
I agree with this. While the Abbott raid is riddled with technical difficulties and flawed puzzle design it is actually quite a fun raid, and most significantly, not a hack and slash raid. I'd love to see more raids like it as long as they fix the main issues (such as ludicrous lag and inconsistent graphical displays).





but I don't know of anyone using any exploits for tiles on Orien. There's no need to. Yet we still get completions relatively easily.
I know several and they lead PUG groups. However; I agree that it is not needed if you have a good voip program or a regular partner whose graphical cues you have learned.

There's plenty of resources if you're looking to learn how to do tiles.
Sadly, there are not enough resources. As far as I am aware there are only 2 videos (one by Spiderwolf) that give a demonstration of tiles, and it is more of a first exposure situation as opposed to a strategy creation orientation. I have considered making some but seem to be lacking the gusto.

I can think of far worse encounters in the game.
TBH, I can't. I am thinking right off of the top of my head, but the only things coming to mind are elite ToD with no CC (or fail-tank on the shadows) or eTLoB without a good tank.

Like many other quests, successful completion of Abbot comes down to party coordination and knowledge, rather than just raw numbers (i.e. DPS, etc.). If it seems like a daunting raid, the solution is to figure it out, not to complain about its difficulty with only a superficial understanding and experience of how the raid mechanics work.
This I agree with 100%

Now that those are out of the way time for some personal opinion on raid mechanics in general.
Raids should scale more than quests. Normal should be quite easy, like The Shroud style of easy. ToD, TLoB, Abbott, etc. should all be able to be run by newbies with relative ease and should boast a completion rate of 80%+ even with more than 50% newbs.

Elite, on the other hand, should be incredibly difficult and scale to a relative difficulty of 4x or more of the normal difficulty. Only those people who have run the raid well enough to know it forward and backward to be able to complete. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to get some grief for that statement, but raids are the "challenge" in the game after all and if they are easy where is the challenge.

Now the big catch, raids aren't like this. Abbot is just the worst case. Although I have not done extensive testing on the Abbot's HP from what I have done his HP does NOT scale by difficulty and his damage does so but just barely. Also, his special abilities are cast in the same delay loop and with the same power as on elite. Quite simply it needs to be fixed.

jaegarnel
11-03-2011, 03:27 PM
Wow, so much hyperbole going around in this thread:


Veterans that knew all the puzzles and yet wiped both times? Either there was lag, or they're not as vet as they thought. And it's not particularly tough for good players. Sometimes we'll even grief guildmates on tiles and try to get each other to die because it's relatively straightforward once you have a bit of practice.

Well I didn't know anyone in either group.
All I can say is that when the leader asked who could do tiles, most people said they could, and much of the group appeared to know all 3 puzzles well enough. Yet in our first attempt, all 3 people in one side of tiles died. Cue recall and reform.
On the second attempt, we still had 2 deaths in tiles, though we completed the puzzle.
It was about the same thing with my second group.
I'm happy for you if you find it easy, but from my limited experience, most people find it tough to do.



There's plenty of resources if you're looking to learn how to do tiles. You can just google around for videos on it, if nothing else. You can also just form your own group to beat down on the abbot and look for tiles (incidentally, I've done that before to practice tiles, solo as a rogue after the HP was buffed). Why is it someone else's responsbility for you to learn by providing training runs for you?


Resources? There's the wiki page, which I read, there are a few guides, most of which are old and outdated, though I still read them, and a few videos, which I watched. None of those are substitutes for actually doing the puzzles.
Forming your own group doesn't work either, tried that and all of 4 people joined in the hour the LFM was up, and not at the same time.
As for soloing the Abbot...yeah. I'm happy for you if you can do that, but I hope you're not suggesting everyone who wants to learn the raid should be able to. I might be able to do it on my capped cleric, but it would take me a long time and I doubt I'd actually learn much from it. You do need 2 people to do tiles, you know.
And I never said people should provide training runs (though it would be nice), it was specifically a reply to a poster who criticized people who refused to join training runs to learn the puzzles. There are no training runs for this raid, and PUGs don't accept newbies for it either unless they're clerics with DI or dark monks who can basically solo ice without any prior knowledge of the raid.
All this combines to make the Abbot raid the hardest one to learn in the game, and whether you know it or not and whether you find it easy running with the same people all the time doesn't change that fact.



I can think of far worse encounters in the game. I thought people were just complaining about one that ends today. Funny how whenever someone doesn't like something it's always automatically the worst in the game.

The difference between Mabar and Abbot is that Mabar is only up a few days a year, while Abbot is up all the time. A few bugs and rough edges (ok, a lot) is understandable if annoying in an event that the devs don't have much time to test, not so much in one of the few endgame raids in the game.
The idea for the Abbot raid is interesting, the implementation sucks


So far in the runs I've been in since I started keeping track, asteroids is the last to finish around 65% of the time or so. That's right, the majority of the time, tiles and ice will finish before asteroids, which is more or less a timed puzzle so can't really be sped up. Apparently the guild has some godly duos or something. But the hyperbole brings up another point, namely why is your raid strategy to have 10 people pike and only 2 people doing what you admit is the bottleneck to the raid? It's some serious cognitive dissonance to stick too few people on one raid objective and then complain that because of this strategy it's too boring to everyone else who has to wait for them, as if that's the raid's fault.

Not much to comment on here, except maybe to say that apparently your lvl 100 guild is one of the best raiding guild in the game, and that your experience may be completely different from the vast majority of the player base.
And from all the posts here and my own experience, yes tiles is by far the puzzle that takes longest in the vast majority of groups.
I agree with you that putting only 2 people in tiles when it's the one puzzle with the highest failure rate, and the only one where having more people than the required minimum will mean more chances at success, seems strange.

I hope you're not saying or implying that vets will fail it 70% of the time. More likely that the 70% death rate was very bad luck and/or people that aren't very experienced at it.
Maybe. I can only report the failure rate I saw in both runs I was in, along with the fact that the people doing it seemed to know what they were doing. I was in ice piking after using DI on the scout (which was extremely boring btw), so I'm not sure why they failed.
Also, you guys need to make up your mind. Is it that there's too few people going to tiles right now or too many? And I would've thought that not having people idle in a raid by /sleep would be a good thing.
Make up our minds? I feel I've been pretty consistent in my opinion about this raid, just because someone else is also complaining doesn't mean we agree on everything.
Personally, I've seen 2 scouts going into portals, then 3/4 people in asteroids, 1 person with DI or waterwalk in ice and the rest in tiles. It seems to be the group spread that gives the most chances at success

The thread's complaints are sort of schizophrenic. Is it the abbot's puzzles that are difficult, or the fight? I personally think the puzzles are fairly tame once you've spent some time learning how they work. Not much different than something like the puzzles in Shroud (sorry, I'm not aware of an offline way to practice timing the lieutenants in part 2 either). The tiles I think is the most interesting of the puzzles in Abbot because you are given a new set each time, as opposed to something like Shroud where there's a fairly limited number of combinations to know (and even then, you don't really have to know them, you can just follow one of the solving methods). And if you're saying that Abbot should be easy to complete even for a group that doesn't bother to learn how the puzzles work, well then, I don't know what to tell you.

Both are difficult.
As for the puzzles, both asteroids and ice seem pretty easy barring lag or bugs, tiles on the other hand has a high failure rate and is random enough that completion is quite luck driven. It's also longer by far than the others for most groups. All in all, it's not very well designed, imo
And I never said Abbot should be easy to complete, and especially not that people who don't learn the puzzles should be able to complete.
All I'm saying is that relative to its theoretical challenge rating (it's only lvl 17, like Shroud), it's a very difficult raid.
Add to this that the actual difficulty setting doesn't seem to change much of anything about the raid, so that people actually have to run it on elite, and well it's too hard for what it should be imo.


The fight is also not particularly difficult in theory if not in execution. There are ways around getting the whole group encased, and there's enough time to run around and get off the platform before inferno hits. A lot of the issues with the fight revolve more around certain bugs (such as ice wand misfiring -- but that can be mitigated by having multiple wand people, or Abbot's cooldown timer not working; I've seen people get encased on the ice island during inferno, and people getting encased in midair right after the Abbot TKed them), but that'll exist for every raid. And of course, lag. But again, that's not unique to Abbot either. Velah's breaths can be timed but that's no help if you're lagged out trying to run behind the pillar. Putting 5 healers on the Horoth tank is no help if there's a lag spike. And so forth.

Like many other quests, successful completion of Abbot comes down to party coordination and knowledge, rather than just raw numbers (i.e. DPS, etc.). If it seems like a daunting raid, the solution is to figure it out, not to complain about its difficulty with only a superficial understanding and experience of how the raid mechanics work. I think well-built raids should actually focus more on tactics rather than just having the beefiest gear (although I do think having more gear should still be helpful -- just not as much), and I think Abbot scores well in that regard (it seems like Lord of Blades also score well, at least in the few times I've been there with no lag). Certainly more interesting than many raids like Shroud where lately it really just comes down to identifying the PUG or PUGs that are wantonly killing lieutenants and recovering from them before the healers run out of SP.

Well I'd agree in theory, but the fact is that every other raid allows you to learn its mechanics in a relatively forgiving environment called the normal difficulty setting. However, no one seems to be running normal Abbot because apparently the differences are minor at best (the puzzles are the same, the Abbot has the same hp, and his specials are more or less the same) and the loot is worse.

So either they should fix the difficulty settings for Abbot so they actually change things about the raid, or they should make it easier (I'd prefer the first solution btw, I have no problem running normal raids until I feel comfortable enough in them to try harder difficulties), and in both cases they should fix all the awful bugs about Abbot before making yet another change to make it harder in U 12.

comments in red.
I'd also say that you're part of an endgame raiding guild, presumably full of people with dozens if not hundred of completions of elite and epic raids under their belt. Maybe you should consider the fact that this affects your experiences in the game, and that you have an hugely easier time in raids that the average at level player.
And quite frankly, there is no reason why elite Abbot, which is only lvl 19, should be designed to be challenging to you and your friends. That's what epic raids, and especially the new ones from U 11, are for.

The fact is that right now, for most people, Abbot is one of the toughest raid in the game to complete (tougher than VoD on any diff, HoX on any diff or ToD on normal and hard, for me anyway, despite the fact that those raids are all higher level) and it shouldn't be.

Roderickus
11-03-2011, 04:34 PM
Way to much hype over something so dull.
I have modest completion number, somewhere around 15 or 20 all over my toons. But I KNOW what needs to be done after first 1-2 runs. Had my try on roids on second run ever, very smooth. Thanks to Akilla aka R which is very patient I'v soak all the info like a sponge on first run with him. Even know how those darn tiles work just don't wanna bother with them and pray someone will throw me a rez after I ask for it.

Had a try today and I knew we were screwed when 5 people said they were new. Party leader explained it very long and in detail about 20 minutes. Nobody asked any questions but once we entered one person obviously forgot he was in asteroids team, other didn't listen to advice to set his graphics to maximum draw distance range and if a problem lower everything else so he allowed me to get hit in the back twice. Roids failed after first round, second round we switched teams, 2 new people were asked to replace the ones that didn't work it out. They said 'ok got it'... THREE minutes later AGAIN 1 of them didn't go in, other one panicked or whatevere so he didn't equip roids in time. Another wipe at roids.

Want to make raid easier? Get people with at least some form of intelligence in party.

Someone might get insulted, don't really care. The raid is simple, he just has more HP now. If u got lag and can't aim/walk straight, don't blame the raid.

And personally I wouldn't allow more than 1-2 persons claiming to be DPS but take 2 minutes to kill a dummy.

[edit]Just wanna backup Vanshilar post and agree with every point he made. And you certainly don't need 10,20,50 completions in order to master a raid. Few runs and you should know everything there is to know regarding those puzzles. Even if u don't do em.

Tarragon12
11-03-2011, 06:49 PM
Terrible idea. It should be made as hard as possible. Go get your easy shroud loot and leave harder to get loot to others.


I have an IDEA.
Instead of listening to all those old players that make this game harder for all new ppl, we can make something easier form time to time? How about this?

I kinda found interesting thread recently:

I have to say I like it.
It could work with new changes with water and make it nice composition for making it finally a raid that a lot ppl can pug.
I personally would like to see it with lessening Inforno, to stop it being RAID wipe spell with that massive lag.

For me game is fun when a lot of ppl can play all content, and not only chosen few old timers who know it all. I would like to see it happen do Abbot, so there will be a lot of ppl doing it instead of skipping it cause its too much time loss or too hard with a lot of ppl who has to know EXACTLY what to do.
That raid is nice, but too hard for pugs and too laggy (please rewrite it finally)!!

Take in mind that number of ppl who stopped doing and marked it as "not worth it" is increasing each day and adding some upgrades that are nice, wont change ppls mind. A lot of them write that they regret buying that pack and time spend or flagging - YES, getting seal done and 4 litany runs sucks except for nice xp, nobody wants Skiver anymore, it takes too much time.

FINALLY I wonder why abbot has so much HP, even looking at raid lvl, he is a freaking arcane, they have 1d4 per lvl, not like demons that should have been threated like 1d12 or something.
I mean, he is powerful (now metas are applied, what was nice) with all spells and all he has, but why he doesn't suffer the being arcane problem?! (lower hp, than other bosses?)

Now I will only wait till all those who can criticize easing game to throw all tomatoes on me.

Firewall
11-04-2011, 04:05 AM
I don't know if it has been mentioned in one of the earlier posts but i think it's about time they changed it so that the soulstones of people that die in the water in the center room are teleported to the middle of the platform. Having a time frame of only 1-2 seconds to rez people before they are teleported back to the bottom of the water is quite annoying.
I have seen two party wipes due to people not being able to see the ice islands due to a cloud spell (acid fog or cloudkill) cast by the abbot right at the edge of the platform so maybe the combination of inferno and cloud spells could be prevented too.

grgurius
11-04-2011, 04:47 AM
Want to make raid easier? Get people with at least some form of intelligence in party.



Somehow it all comes down to this. Stupidity is the reason for 90% of pug wipes, other 10% go to lag and bugs.

maha0201
11-04-2011, 04:54 AM
Somehow it all comes down to this. Stupidity is the reason for 90% of pug wipes, other 10% go to lag and bugs.

You call bug when you get encased on ice island ! Blasphemy devs wanted to have some fun with us XD. Even better 2 get boomeranged down form asteroids with rocks in hand, and don't get me started about that ninja asteroids when may-ban was up. And don't get me started about misfire ice wand :mad: Sorry but abbot is to buggy for an raid :rolleyes: Velah did get fix with shrines if you killed her and then she, while she was dead did fire. Storm beaver go hi hp up and air elemental boosted.

New change will do even split for every puzzle end of the discussion. You will have brain to do abbot, as you should have in past. 3 scouts 3 to phase 3 to ice 3 to asteroids for the win. And we all know he won't evoke inferno till all puzzles are done.

Astars
11-04-2011, 05:44 AM
OP- bad idea! Abbot is one of the few raids were skill is much more important than equipment/build. Don't take that away. Should things fail due to lag or a scew-up, it takes less than 5 mins to reform and a failed run will fail mostly in the first 5-10 mins. Compare this to LoB, where failure means 30 mins recovery.

Generally failing abbot raids should be a thing of the past with u12. You'll see a lot of people with tons of experience run abbot again since they want to upgrade their loot ;)

I think in the past months many of the more experienced players went to greener pastures (LoB, Epics). They'll return now. (at least until they farmed enough upgrade tokens) As a positive effect for the less experienced players in elite raids post u12, they'll be able to trade named abbot loot for their upgrade tokens in the raid (at least thats what i will do) :)

Cheers

Ast

Sarisa
11-04-2011, 06:50 AM
My group did legit Ice again last night, and again had a wand misfire. Him spam clicking the wand after to get it to fire didn't work. Luckily I had DI on.

voodoogroves
11-04-2011, 07:50 AM
I love and hate the abbot.

It requires a bit of intelligence, but far more communication. I hate doing it w/o voice, much like elite Hound.

You can autopilot through elite VOD with a good enough group - but you have to communicate for those ... love it for that, but also hate it for that.

Astars
11-04-2011, 07:52 AM
My group did legit Ice again last night, and again had a wand misfire. Him spam clicking the wand after to get it to fire didn't work. Luckily I had DI on.

80% of all wand misfires i have seen are due to
a) autotargeting is on
b) some1 blocking los or standing behind wand caster
With a few precautions those misfires can be avoided
As to other ice failures its mostly due to bad targeting. Take your time when casting ice islands, there really is enough. Use your mouselook aiming cricle and aim before or after the traps. Don't rush. Take your time. You won't fail. Try to get a good rythm.

Cheers

Ast

Sarisa
11-04-2011, 08:02 AM
80% of all wand misfires i have seen are due to
a) autotargeting is on
b) some1 blocking los or standing behind wand caster
With a few precautions those misfires can be avoided
As to other ice failures its mostly due to bad targeting. Take your time when casting ice islands, there really is enough. Use your mouselook aiming cricle and aim before or after the traps. Don't rush. Take your time. You won't fail. Try to get a good rythm.

Cheers

Ast

It was purely the "clickie bug", where you try to use a clickie or wand or scroll, it goes on timer and animation, but it never actually activates.

Zaodon
11-04-2011, 08:09 AM
Idea's to make Abbott "easier" yet not ruin/redesign the existing 3 puzzles:

Asteroids: no change, seriously. Its not hard.

Ice: replace the Wand with Boots. The Boots let you create "ice" patches just by jumping on the water (no clicky required, they just work by themselves). They still only last a few seconds, requiring you to jump again, and the boots only work every (x) seconds (same frequency as the wand cooldown, I forget what it is.) The added challenge is, only 2 pairs of boots / raid. So, this ends up keeping the challenge up, since you remove the whole misfire problem, but replace it with "only 2 people have boots, so, keep them alive!"

Tiles: make this a timed challenge, that works like this. Runner 1 gets goggles, which lets them see their own tiles. They wear the goggles, work out their own timing, and run across. Break the coffin, which removes a barrier between them and where runner 2 is. Runner 1 trades goggles to runner 2. Runner 2 puts them on, runs across a second set of tiles, breaks coffin. All of this is on a short timer (60 seconds? 120? whatever seems right) to put the pressure on to get it right, fast. In other words, each runner has to figure out their own path using the goggles themselves, but runner 2 has to wait for runner 1 to complete and hand over the goggles. Still relies on the "skill" of judging the tile timing. Still relies on 2 people learning and doing it. Eliminates the problem of lag, voice chat, "lining up", etc. Each player does their own challenge. Same flavor, much more "simplistic" but not really any easier.

Niv-mizzet
11-04-2011, 07:05 PM
I feel like I was taken out of context what with 'you just want things easier' retort that seemed to come back at me, so here's a retry.

Make it easy, make it hard, make it near impossible, whatever. Just get rid of the point where in 49/50 abbot runs I'm in, half the raid is AFK for 10 or more minutes. I have literally used Abbot as a way to take a shower for work while still getting in that last bit of raid time before I leave the house before. (iirc I think I got a loot from that run too.)

However that needs to happen, whether it be that the other 2 puzzles continue on infinitely until all 3 finish, or the whole raid has to go through each puzzle, whatever. Anything but just sitting there waiting.

Nich
11-04-2011, 07:45 PM
Just learn how to Fing play and stop piking. Wont bother enumerate what needs to be done nor what you need to bring, check Blackmoor's post for that. If you dont/cant, the problem is on your side, not on the raid side.

Ebonta
11-05-2011, 09:14 AM
Well, no one is entitled to the loot. If you want your 20th list, you have to complete the raid 20 times, and actually survive the machanics.

I kind of feel entitled after running it 70 or so time's on one character and still not having/getting a Litany of the Dead.


If they made the flagging mechanics easier instead of playing a slot machine there might be more people flagged to do the raid, and thus more people doing the raid which would make pugging easier.

The flagging isn't really that bad. Even with more people flagged people still won't know how to do the puzzles.

Now if they would only fix the lag in there. Just last night we nearly wiped an elite run when everyone started lagging out as the Abbot called Inferno. We recovered, but it was still ridiculous.

Templarion
11-06-2011, 01:15 PM
This game needs difficult end game raids. Abbot should be one of them.

Without difficult end game, what does this game has to offer? It's not PvP at least. Endless reincarnation cycle also gets boring after a while.

That's why I vote for even more challenging raids. Even if that means PUGs are not able to complete them. And btw, my opinion is that any PUG is able to complete any raid in the game if people are selected carefully and briefed well.

Vellrad
11-06-2011, 01:31 PM
I think elite abot should be difficult, but normal should have easier puzzles, like longer isles with decreas cooldowns, shorter tiles, less damaging asteroids etc.

porq
11-06-2011, 03:05 PM
I think elite abot should be difficult, but normal should have easier puzzles, like longer isles with decreas cooldowns, shorter tiles, less damaging asteroids etc.
Normal already is easier, though I'm not sure when it was implemented in. It's actually the elite puzzles that were sped up; asteroids fly in faster and tiles cycle faster. Normal is the same ol' same ol'.


I agree with the general sentiment that Abbot should be a challenging raid though. Unfortunately it's usually "challenging" for all the wrong reasons, like lag, whole raid encasement, being unable to jump back up on platform, etc. Lag is especially cruel in Abbot because of the need to react quickly to his attacks.

At the least I hope they adjusted drop rates of raid gear for this new update.

Lunavera0351
11-06-2011, 04:04 PM
I love this raid because it takes something more then just hack and slash. There are enough easier raids to do that are just going in and killing the guy and you just heal through it. Raids like abbot and hox are fun because they take planning and knowledge to do. Yes I do get frustrated with it at times when I get a group and we have to reform/find new people and end up trying 3 times to complete the raid, but at the same time I enjoy it because it is a challenge. I say leave it as is and try harder! :) I wouldn't mind if they could fix the lag a little (I have not had as much lag as some people seem to, I think what happens more often then actual lag is people just needing and excuse for a mistake but who knows) but other then that leave as is.

Lunavera0351
11-06-2011, 04:25 PM
I know that. The point wasn't how to minimize the risk.

However, you can still end up encased if the scout spots inferno, waits until it's over lags some and then people jump into the next effect which if it is encase and it hit's the zoneing in party is a near certain showstopper.

It's not very common but it does happen even with scouts. That the chance is there at all is what I'm against and the fact that you "need" to send in a scout (that many times dies to inferno or encased) is abit lame. Too much pure luck in that mechanic at zone in.

I am aware that this isn't much of a problem most of the time, especially if you have most on voice but if you do this in a random PUG the chance for a raidwipe is higher.

Just remove the chance that the first effect is showstoppers such as inferno or encase and all is well with the last fight imo.

Yes you should always know exactly what every enemy is going to do to you. There is absolutely no reason why you should ever not know exactly what they are going to do. In fact they should just make it so the game pauses every time a BIG attack like inferno is being cased and show you a big symbol and name of the attack for 1 sec then
un-pause the game. There should never be any mystery or any thing spontaneous! I mean the way it is you would have to be able to react to situations......

In case you couldn't tell all sarcasm. I am done reading peoples posts here, as anyone who wants the abbot to get easier is just complaining that it is to hard for them. Its not that they can't do it just they don't want to, they want the grind to be easier for them. Once again I say leave it as is and get better at it.

oweieie
11-07-2011, 01:17 AM
Spent about 3 hours in 2 different groups to get my abbot done this weekend. Mostly goggles failing, once due to an "impossible puzzle", once to someone falling through a tile, once to someone going in the wrong door, and a couple times just because. Asteroids almost failed a few times thanks to invisible 'roids, 'roids that won't destroy when hit once, 'roids that hit the platform from almost straight above or below that no one sees, and random rocks getting thrown straight up instead of towards the 'roids. Ice never failed. Can't wait until ice has the highest failure rate of the 3 puzzles! Oh, and of course garbage drops on elites. Hurray. They should let you trade +3 tomes in for something useful so they aren't making worse an already **** poor drop rate.

jaegarnel
11-07-2011, 02:44 AM
This game needs difficult end game raids. Abbot should be one of them.

Without difficult end game, what does this game has to offer? It's not PvP at least. Endless reincarnation cycle also gets boring after a while.

That's why I vote for even more challenging raids. Even if that means PUGs are not able to complete them. And btw, my opinion is that any PUG is able to complete any raid in the game if people are selected carefully and briefed well.

Seriously? Abbot is a lvl 17 raid, and all the other quests in the pack are lvl 14 or 15. Like Reaver's Fate and Shroud, it may have been endgame at some point, but now that the cap is 20, it shouldn't be anymore.

Challenging raids for endgame players are the epic ones, ToD, MA ad LoB, i.e. the ones that are lvl 19+, NOT a lvl 17 one.
Will you ask for Shroud to be balanced for capped characters next, just because it's mainly run by them? Then I suppose Reaver's Fate, VoN and other such raids that are meant to be a challenge AT LEVEL? And not at cap.

Also, fyi, a PUG where you need to select people carefully is no longer a PUG.
I definitely don't have to screen people when I post LFMs for Shroud, VoD, or HoX. Why should I have to for Abbot, when those raids are all the same or higher level?



I love this raid because it takes something more then just hack and slash. There are enough easier raids to do that are just going in and killing the guy and you just heal through it. Raids like abbot and hox are fun because they take planning and knowledge to do. Yes I do get frustrated with it at times when I get a group and we have to reform/find new people and end up trying 3 times to complete the raid, but at the same time I enjoy it because it is a challenge. I say leave it as is and try harder! :) I wouldn't mind if they could fix the lag a little (I have not had as much lag as some people seem to, I think what happens more often then actual lag is people just needing and excuse for a mistake but who knows) but other then that leave as is.

You know what? That's why they have difficulty settings in this game, so that people who want a challenge can have it on elite, and those who just want to learn the raid or get a completion can do that on normal.

Keep elite abbot as hard as you want, I don't care. Just make normal accessible to PUGs so new players can learn it. Seriously, this is a lvl 17 raid, there's no reason it should be designed to be challenging to endgame players, that's what epic raids are for.

The problem with Abbot atm is that the raid doesn't scale.
The Abbot has the same hp on all difficulties, his inferno will still wipe a group on normal, the puzzles are the same, there are still tons of weeps who intercess divines so they can't even heal, etc...

And yes, I did try Abbot on elite twice, and I've done training runs twice on normal as well. Frankly, I didn't notice any difference between the two. Everything that makes the raid tough on elite is still there on normal.
That's just wrong, imo, sorry.

oweieie
11-07-2011, 08:54 AM
Challenging raids for endgame players are the epic ones, ToD, MA ad LoB, i.e. the ones that are lvl 19+, NOT a lvl 17 one.

LoB water hits for less than the boss does and people jump in it, Abbot water instant kills. LoB doesn't hurl you into instant death water, Abbot does. Rain of Blades damage is regularly stood through and can be evaded for no damage, Inferno can mess you up pretty good. Abbot adds can quell your healers, LoB adds can give your healers SP. Abbot will dispel you and disintegrate your healers for pretty decent damage or encase them, LoB won't mess with your back line at all and the spells he does cast are ignorable. LoB is really a pretty stand up fight, Abbot has a bit more to it.

Feralthyrtiaq
11-07-2011, 09:32 AM
...but not today (or many tomorrows for that matter)

Don't do Abbott anymore. The 3 completions out of 25 or so attempts dropped Noxious Embers, Quiver, and a Staff in my chest. Givin up for roll as my monk didn't need.

Abbott whether a good group, bad group w/e is too much of a pain for many reasons and no loot in that raid is a game changer. (for anyone whether you know it or not)

/shrug

Don't like? EZ Don't do it!

cdemeritt
11-07-2011, 09:49 AM
I am not sure the Raid needs wants you suggest.

The reason the raid is not PuG friendly is that he flagging mechanism is the absolute WORST in the game, bar none. It seems to me, that people just do not want to generally grind Abbott flagging until they are 'filling out' at 20 on a character that they are not TRing.

Coincidentally, and for example, I just was finishing flagging for my static group last night - we have had to run Inferno more than 6 times and 2 of us STILL are not flagged for not getting enough #3 sigil pieces. We are 20s now. If we had been doing at level, with xp, we would have (and did) move on to different content.

I think the area is great - good graphics, great story. If you make flagging so that you get your 4 (1-4) pieces automatically upon completion of the main quests and then randomly assign 5-8 in any quest (as it currently stands), I think you would see a good bump in raid ready players and more Abbott activity. :)

P.S. (left unsaid but now said) With the inference being that the more players run the quest, the better they will get at and know the mechanics.


^^
This....

I hate the Abbot.... The loot has some nice things, but not nice enough for me to go through the pain of running it... The flagging is a horrible thing... If it weren't for Silver Flame pots and the Minos helm , I never would have bought Necro 4. I did get flagged in the process of acquiring SF favor, but still have no intention of running abbot...

This is just my opinion of the raid, I just don't like it... However, there is nothing wrong with the raid, and DDO needs raids like this for the people who do like that type of raid (something other than a corner the boss slug fest)

MrkGrismer
11-07-2011, 10:54 AM
The flagging isn't really that bad. Even with more people flagged people still won't know how to do the puzzles.

Uhm... yeah... I guess the above shows how vastly different opinions can be.

If more people are flagged than more people will know how to do the puzzles, it is simple:

If, say, 25% of the people that are flagged are willing to learn how to do the puzzles the number of people that are willing to learn how to do the puzzles goes up when then number of people flagged goes up.

The only way the number of people that would know how to do the puzzles would not go up is if there is some sort of correlation between people that think the current 'slot machine' flagging mechanism is 'not too bad' and people who are willing to learn the puzzles. Which I highly doubt. ;) I can say for sure that I know of at least one player that would be happy to learn the puzzles but will not do so because the flagging is not worth his time, even after capping 6 characters. I suspect there are others.

Sarisa
11-07-2011, 11:09 AM
For the flagging, any time you're dependent on a lottery, even one with good odds, you're going to see the annoying randomness strike.

If you need, for instance, the part that only drops in Inferno. If you take a full group of people in who all will pass you that piece if it shows up, it'll still have a chance at not showing up in a single ransack for everyone in the group. It's not a high chance, but I've personally seen it, twice. If it doesn't show up, then you're stuck for a week waiting for the ransack timer to expire.

For one of the four random pieces, you have more options per week, but bad luck can strike again. It took my group three weeks of ransacking all four quests to get one member the last random piece he needed.

This is just for flagging, not the real loot items or raid drops. Random lotteries ARE a problem. To make it worse, there is apparently still no increased chances of getting the frame parts on higher difficulties, so you farm it in "easy mode" once you get the Silver Flame favour once. At least the named loot drops for the Orchard quests were increased, so at least you could get SOMETHING useful out there.

azrael4h
11-07-2011, 08:01 PM
Uhm... yeah... I guess the above shows how vastly different opinions can be.

If more people are flagged than more people will know how to do the puzzles, it is simple:

This assumes people will: 1 run the raid, and 2: allow a person who has never done the raid in.

Post U11 pug raiding is hostile enough, and Abbot is rarely pugged out. Most of the LFMs I have seen carry the same restrictions that have me ignoring Shroud runs.

It's the same "If you don't have MinII's you can't run Shroud" issue that we see here.

Quite frankly, I question the decision to do any adjustments to Abbot at all, given it's low popularity. IMO It would be better to make a new L17 raid instead.

MrkGrismer
11-08-2011, 12:45 PM
This assumes people will: 1 run the raid, and 2: allow a person who has never done the raid in.

Post U11 pug raiding is hostile enough, and Abbot is rarely pugged out. Most of the LFMs I have seen carry the same restrictions that have me ignoring Shroud runs.

It's the same "If you don't have MinII's you can't run Shroud" issue that we see here.

Quite frankly, I question the decision to do any adjustments to Abbot at all, given it's low popularity. IMO It would be better to make a new L17 raid instead.

Maybe it is a matter of servers, I have never seen that issue with normal shroud on Orien. I have seen a Shroud labeled "Link your Saughagin Beaters", obviously a joke on that type of thing so I guess it happens sometimes.

I can't speak directly to Abbot because I don't pay attention to the LFMs for it very much, although I do see them often enough and can't recall ever seeing anything beyond "know what you are doing" (and that only sometimes).

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I do not run the raid currently because I can't be bothered to flag for it. If I could flag for it by running the 5 quests once (maybe twice) and then running Litany 4 times I would do so, but having to run those 5 quests an unknown number of times means I run them maybe once, if that. Generally all I always run in there is The Desecrated Temple of Vol because it is good XP and can be soloed relatively easily. Although it seem like they make stealth changes to the final fight vampires, last time I was in there I think they were not taking any damage from firewall, but I could be wrong (been a while).

azrael4h
11-08-2011, 08:00 PM
It's not as common as it once was I believe, but I still see "link BB's, casters link pots" for Shroud almost every day that I log on. I've never seen a hard or elite Shroud, though that will probably change now that there's a reason to do so. Oh wait, I do remember one. It sat for an hour not filling before being dropped down to normal.

I see maybe one Abbot a month, if that. Only Titan is rarer in my experience. I've seen more Epic LoB than Titan.

I actually like most of the NecroIV quests fairly well; save Inferno. And that isn't bad so long as you don't have a particular guildy of mine in there. But it took two lives and nearly capped on the second life before my sorcerer was flagged. I'm not bothering with anyone else.

MeliCat
11-08-2011, 08:35 PM
The flagging mechanic is only a small part of why there are not many LFM's. There are many flagged who no longer wish to run this raid (like myself) because it is ridiculously boring while everyone waits around for tiles to complete. The only guy not bored out of his mind is the one that leads the second side for tiles. Then after all that wait, you have a 50/50 chance of wiping on the first inferno if you're in a PUG. If you do complete, you have another 50/50 chance of being skunked. Waste of time and boring. Also very intimidating for first timers.

I really like the idea of swapping the order of puzzles and abbot attack sequence, but then again there will probably be a lot more puzzle wipes now. If they eliminated one side of tiles, all of the puzzles would probably finish closer to the same time, there wouldn't be nearly as much standing around, and the quest wouldn't be so boring. Would it be so hard to build a bridge on the left side?

This sums it up for me too.

To those saying "but you can fight him again and redo the puzzles you missed". Well yes. With his hp the way he is though it's a drain on resources most people don't want. To add to this that off with infernos that drain your sp it's just easier to start again. And there doesn't seem to be much difference between normal and elite.

Little easy battle. VERY boring wait to see if tiles fails (or occasionally roids if really bad lag). Then luck/pug skill if you fail through infernos or not. And then he can incase people while they are on the ice islands which just seems totally unfair. I like throwing roids - that's fun. I'm not very good at traditional ice or tiles and want to have a LOT more practice but that's almost impossible to organise. I enjoy trying to get it right with ice islands and infernos. What I really do hate though is the waiting on tiles to most of the time fail, the complete sp loss if you stuff up inferno and then having to reform. It takes too long.

It's just a badly deisgned non fun raid in total. Unfortunately it has some very nice loot so before all those who will look down on me for not being able to reliably do this raid, I will continue to try because of this.



I also often get asked to trade a wand after the puzzles. That has to be one of the dumbest things there is, taking a healer out of commission for upwards of 10 seconds. Improve this by allowing you to just DROP the items to the ground from your inventory, like you do with the Titan crystals.

Then the sheer amount of bugs needs to be addressed.
No difference in HP between N/H/E
Wand misfires, especially when you're standing still
Full party encasement
Asteroids starting at the platform as you zone in

At least the Greensteel/weapon eating bug was (hopefully) fixed.

Beating down the Abbot after a puzzle failure, after the HP change, just isn't worth the time and resource expense. It was fine with a 50k HP Abbot, but not with a 135k HP Abbot.

There used to be training runs on Sarlona occasionally, maybe once a month or so, but basically nothing since u10 raised his HP.

^ Devs *please* read this post. I have great respect for Sarisa as a knowledgeable and experienced player and she is seriously worth listening to.

MeliCat
11-08-2011, 09:07 PM
Veterans that knew all the puzzles and yet wiped both times? Either there was lag, or they're not as vet as they thought. And it's not particularly tough for good players. Sometimes we'll even grief guildmates on tiles and try to get each other to die because it's relatively straightforward once you have a bit of practice.



Vanshilar, as it's very difficult to get practice in, can you post tips on how to do tiles? (Possibly in a different thread so as not to clog up this one... if it's been posted and I've missed the *specific point* I want please direct me).

I've watched videos, I've mirrored people, I've looked through the goggles, the guides I've all read do not explain the essential point I want to know. I do not know how to explain the pattern and the cycle through. When I ask people they kind of say stuff that doesn't make sense to me such that I suspect it's an instinctive thing that you just 'do' and just get the hang of. I've seen people write out the patterns like this: " 2,1,1,3,1,(2)go " where numbers are how many times you move, commas brief pauses, brackets safe tiles. here is a sample youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63fPJPmTBb4&feature=related One friend commented that you could look at it 2 tiles and a time and emphasised it's either off or on (a truism and an important one but I just can't quite get there).

I just don't get it. I can't really catch hold of the patterns to explain them. Therefore I can't lead anyone else across tiles although I can follow if someone gives clear directions. I also don't want to waste other peoples time practicing this in game if I can practice this virtually as I just don't get it.

You say it's easy. If it's easy to you then here is a challenge to teach it.


Also to anyone who knows, on a completely different point and I ask as I haven't been following all the discussions, with the removal of DI and still the very harming water and a long swim down, is it possible to retrieve stones that fall to the bottom any more? What happens in the very common case where half of the party ends up at the bottom and are unretrievable?

Edit: I guess you just time your rezz on further thought. Still there is quite a bit of a design flaw there that unless you have points in jump or a jump item you can have problems getting out of the water. It seems kind of lame to warn newbies 'bring a jump item' when this sounds like a dungeon design flaw.

Sonofmoradin
11-10-2011, 10:26 AM
What is this? People actually want to nerf raids? This is the worse idea ever. In order for a game to be fun, there should be chance of loosing. Otherwise we can all login press a keylogger autopilot on and wait for the good swords to drop. Is this really a new trend lately?

Fix the lag. Continue making the game more challenging. Completely ignore the playerbase that wants a game they can walkthrough whenever they press autopilot on. This is not a suggestion, its a must for turbine.

I have been playing ddo since 2006, and I have started from scratch 4 times. All 4 times I ended up with top gear and bored to death when I discovered that there was nothing else to do. I still wipe in groups, I still fail raids, but that is how a game should be, challenging. Risky.

Vanshilar
11-16-2011, 02:25 AM
Vanshilar, as it's very difficult to get practice in, can you post tips on how to do tiles?

Well I'm far from an expert on tiles. I'm sure there are a lot more knowledgeable people on Orien on how to do it; correspondingly, far more people on Khyber that should be able to directly guide you through it, that have probably been doing tiles longer than I've been playing the game. I'm surprised they haven't been able to teach you adequately. Also, different servers probably do it differently.

Having said that, there are different ways to practice. I don't buy the logic that puzzles must have an offline way to practice (such as shroud part 3); part of the fun of the game is in mastering the execution, not simply the logic. Otherwise, we'd just enter our character stats into a raid and have it spit out a completion or a wipe. A fair number of puzzles or otherwise skills can only be done in-game without offline solvers; ToD part 2 kiting is an example that comes to mind, as well as Reaver lever-pulling and Shroud part 2 kill coordinating.

The easiest way to get some practice in going through the tiles yourself is to follow someone who has the goggles to the other side, then have him give you the goggles and see if you can make it back and forth. Assuming he made it, the side is complete and so it doesn't matter if you die or not; in fact if the group is strong enough, they could probably just continue on and complete the raid while you keep practicing running back and forth, getting used to the timing of the tiles. Similarly, you can also practice guiding each other through tiles in a similar fashion, by having your "practice" team follow the "actual" team to the other side, exchange goggles, and then try to replicate the results.

If you're guiding someone else, or at least the way we do it on Orien, the flyer should be fairly aligned front-back, meaning that (on Orien) he faces the other side, where the sarcophagus is located (i.e. west). This keeps him from veering diagonally as he does the run. Usually, the guide will align himself with a blue tile, and the tiles person (we call him the "flyer", don't know if that's the same terminology on Khyber) will use the minimap and move to be directly aligned with the guide vertically (i.e. north-south). So it's basically, guide will say which row the flyer should be on (out of the 4 rows), he moves to the next safe tile on that row, and then will tell the flyer when to start running, in case there are empty tiles in between. Usually the flyer will jump as he runs to minimize time spent on tiles in case there are holes. It's worthwhile to note that a favored soul's wings or a monk's abundant step while jumping is roughly the length of three tiles. Having said that, however, my time as flyer has almost exclusively been as a barbarian or as a rogue, since I only very recently capped my monk; certainly having wings makes it easier (due to more distance traveled before having to land on a possibly missing tile) but is by no means a requirement.

You can more or less see this in action in the video you linked; the guide is moving to the next tile, while the flyer moves on the guide's command and tries to stay aligned with him. Usually the flyer won't stop at the exact center of the tile, so the guide will give course corrections as necessary (i.e. a little forward, a little to the left, etc.). That's pretty much all there is to it. In the video, the flyer looks at the guide instead, I'm guessing because he moves when the guide moves, but that's just a minor detail; we usually do it by voice, although there have been non-voice (i.e. chat box only) guides in the past. (It's also possible that they were coordinating over vent, you can see it about halfway through when the flyer stops in front of an empty tile and moves without the guide saying anything.)

If people are complaining that the raid is too boring for them because they end up waiting for another team for 10 minutes, that's the fault of the raid leader for devising a strategy like that, not of the raid designer (i.e. Turbine). Generally raid leaders should be devoting more resources to wherever the bottleneck is. If a raid leader for ToD assigned only one person to DPS Horoth and everyone else on orthon duty, yeah, I'd be pretty bored too, but I wouldn't put the blame for how long the raid takes on Turbine. It's reflecting bad raid strategy of the players, not bad raid design by the DM. Of course, things like lag or wand misfires or getting encased on the ice islands during inferno reflect bad raid design, but that's another story.

bnastyy
11-16-2011, 01:08 PM
i dont even care about a difficulty change....just let some **** drop every once in a while huh? im tired of countless runs without ANYTHING dropping.