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elricken
10-29-2011, 02:53 AM
Add +2 wisdom pretty please.:)

KajaGrae
10-29-2011, 03:17 AM
or make a 2nd one that is +2 Wis and Extra Turns per rest.

Jendrak
10-29-2011, 01:26 PM
I would like to see the capstones look something like this:

1) add 3 uses of turn undead and +20% to healing spells (healbots)
2) adds +2 wis and +20% aligment based damage(offensive)

Kayla93
10-30-2011, 07:45 PM
Ull probably get +2 wisdom/charisma and + to damage when offesive caster prestige line for clerics will show up.
Personally im still waiting for healing line on my fvs... ;p

R0cksteady
10-30-2011, 07:49 PM
Definitely add Wisdom +2 tot he cleric capstone.

I would love the extra DC, would put me at 41 for necro, enchant and Evocation. But I would not give up DI for it.

DI is great, but really not enough compared to what other casting classes get.

Kayla93
10-30-2011, 07:51 PM
Yeah... Fvs get +2 charisma (+29 sp) and e.g. free light cure... Thats super... IMAO.

Id like fvs to get +2 wisdom too.

R0cksteady
10-30-2011, 08:27 PM
Yeah... Fvs get +2 charisma (+29 sp) and e.g. free light cure... Thats super... IMAO.

Id like fvs to get +2 wisdom too.

Yeah lol, and give my cleric 10 DR, wings, more damage output and more spell points. And higher HP.

>_>

FvS have PLENTY. They don't need a powerful capstone.

CrimsonSpectre
10-30-2011, 08:38 PM
/signed

+2 wisdom would be nice and is in line with other class's capstone benefits.

Actually though, I'd be happy if clerics just got domains. It's the main thing that made clerics unique and a good implementation of them would help to restore some of the balance between clerics and FvS's. It might take some tweaking to bring domains into line with DDO so everyone didn't go "Take Healing and Magic domains or you're gimp," but it would very nice to see.

arjiwan
10-31-2011, 12:46 AM
Or make it simple. Make DI the same cooldown and all, except it doesn't use turns.

Remove the cost.

R0cksteady
10-31-2011, 12:53 AM
Or make it simple. Make DI the same cooldown and all, except it doesn't use turns.

Remove the cost.

That barely improves it at all. Turns regen. For every DI you can use, 2 and a half regens occur.

arjiwan
10-31-2011, 12:56 AM
That barely improves it at all. Turns regen. For every DI you can use, 2 and a half regens occur.

I apologize.

For me, in my opinion, it will improve it.

There are times that I can't use DI because all of my turns are used because of past paced, all action bursting and aura.

Kayla93
10-31-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah lol, and give my cleric 10 DR, wings, more damage output and more spell points. And higher HP.

>_>

FvS have PLENTY. They don't need a powerful capstone.

So then give my fvs bursts, AC, aura healing and more slots. U see...

more sp + less slots = less sp and more slots
wings + damage + archon = bursts + aura + stronger healing and cheaper empower healing
DR = AC (at least it thought to be ... but cleric CAN get 50+ AC without problems).

And here...
DI totally isnt = +2 charisma(29sp) and 1 free cure light.
If u want +2 wis we want too.
It wouldnt be fair
+1 DC + DI compared to +2 cha (29sp) and free cure light... ;p
Its like ying and yang. There has to be some balance.Yeah i can see that everyone want their class to get something super to be the best... but its not what this game is about.

Pape_27
10-31-2011, 12:01 PM
It wouldnt be fair



Fair? What exactly are you complaining about? Lets look at the special bonuses each class gets (without spending a feat):
Cleric - Turn Undead
FvS - Favored By (choose your faith - free weapon proficiency)
FvS - Child of (choose your faith - +1 to attack with chosen weapon)
FvS - Elemental Resist 1
FvS - Elemental Resist 2
FvS - Beloved By (choose your faith - +2 damage with chosen weapon)
FvS - Elemental resist 3
FvS - Leap of Faith
FvS - Damage Reduction 10

and you want to complain about reworking the cleric capstone to add +2 to wisdom?

Heck, I wouldnt even mind if the cleric capstone added +2 cha instead of wisdom. At least that would mean another burst or aura and another umd skill point, which is extremely useful. As for right now, the capstone adds nothing to the overall build.

But please, dont trot out the "fair" card.

Khimberlhyte
10-31-2011, 12:44 PM
DR = AC (at least it thought to be ... but cleric CAN get 50+ AC without problems).
Yes, and some people play their characters in content beyond Gianthold. Unless you splash monk and gear heavily to get AC between 80 and 100, there is no comparison between AC and 10 DR.

There isn't that much of a difference between the AC a cleric can reach and what a FvS can attain, and it is just as pointless on both. Unlike Monk DR, FvS DR is also good in epic content.

GermanicusMaximus
10-31-2011, 01:16 PM
Right now, a pure class cleric essentially doesn't have access to anything that is worthy of the title "Capstone". The only way to get something that powerful on a cleric is to do a splash build.

Adding a real capstone to the cleric class would certainly be welcome. +2 Wisdom, however, wouldn't come close to being enough. Not when splashing a single level of fighter gives you martial weapon access and a choice between Improved Crit: Slash and Power Attack.

Kayla93
10-31-2011, 02:03 PM
Fair? What exactly are you complaining about? Lets look at the special bonuses each class gets (without spending a feat):
Cleric - Turn Undead
FvS - Favored By (choose your faith - free weapon proficiency)
FvS - Child of (choose your faith - +1 to attack with chosen weapon)
FvS - Elemental Resist 1
FvS - Elemental Resist 2
FvS - Beloved By (choose your faith - +2 damage with chosen weapon)
FvS - Elemental resist 3
FvS - Leap of Faith
FvS - Damage Reduction 10

and you want to complain about reworking the cleric capstone to add +2 to wisdom?

Heck, I wouldnt even mind if the cleric capstone added +2 cha instead of wisdom. At least that would mean another burst or aura and another umd skill point, which is extremely useful. As for right now, the capstone adds nothing to the overall build.

But please, dont trot out the "fair" card.

U forgot about clerics bursts, aura, cheaper empwoer healing and more powerfull healing...

For +2 cha id agree.... still i see clerics capstone right now a lot better than fvs capstone.

Pape_27
10-31-2011, 02:32 PM
U forgot about clerics bursts, aura, cheaper empwoer healing and more powerfull healing...

For +2 cha id agree.... still i see clerics capstone right now a lot better than fvs capstone.

I did not forget about them. Im not comparing Cleric and FvS Pre's.

The bursts and aura are the Pre, which are not free attributes. Each tier has to be purchased at the expense of something else. Everything I listed in that comparison is what the classes are given for free. There is no quid pro quo between the two.

The FvS capstone of free heals can be a real boon. Add a little healing amp to the build mix, either on gear or thru enhancements (or even better, both) and that little puppy does some serious good. Compared to divine intervention? The cleric capstone is situationally good. Basically, with the upcoming change to the water part of the abbot, those situations have been cut by 1/4.

I would prefer not to make this a fvs vs cleric debate though. Take a look at the cleric capstone independantly and then compare it with the other capstones available. If you do you should be able to see how it lags behind all the other capstones. Is there truely a real benefit for anyone to stay as a pure cleric based on it? No, there really isnt. Thats why it needs to be (hopefully) buffed.

GermanicusMaximus
10-31-2011, 02:49 PM
For +2 cha id agree.... still i see clerics capstone right now a lot better than fvs capstone.

Hmm, the FvS capstone is question lets someone spam cure light wounds for free. It would get tiresome fairly quickly, but would be useful for tank healing. Its much more useful that DI.

Kayla93
10-31-2011, 05:33 PM
I did not forget about them. Im not comparing Cleric and FvS Pre's.

The bursts and aura are the Pre, which are not free attributes. Each tier has to be purchased at the expense of something else. Everything I listed in that comparison is what the classes are given for free. There is no quid pro quo between the two.

The FvS capstone of free heals can be a real boon. Add a little healing amp to the build mix, either on gear or thru enhancements (or even better, both) and that little puppy does some serious good. Compared to divine intervention? The cleric capstone is situationally good. Basically, with the upcoming change to the water part of the abbot, those situations have been cut by 1/4.

I would prefer not to make this a fvs vs cleric debate though. Take a look at the cleric capstone independantly and then compare it with the other capstones available. If you do you should be able to see how it lags behind all the other capstones. Is there truely a real benefit for anyone to stay as a pure cleric based on it? No, there really isnt. Thats why it needs to be (hopefully) buffed.

I agree that it CAN be buffed. I dont see fvs capstone really more usefull. But +1 DC would be too much. +2 char I agree too, can be.

Pape_27
10-31-2011, 05:44 PM
I agree that it CAN be buffed. I dont see fvs capstone really more usefull. But +1 DC would be too much. +2 char I agree too, can be.

+1 dc would be too much? compared to what? why would it be too much?

as for the FvS cap, do you play a FvS? Do you use the capstone? Have you built any healing amp into your toon? The potential for it to be great is there, if you respec (if you have a capped FvS).

Enoach
10-31-2011, 06:52 PM
Currently of all of the Capstones only 4 increase the To-Hit/DCs of the character in question. Of them only two is 100% useful to every pure build.


Barbarian - +2 to Strength
Bard - +2 to Charisma (This is not necessarily useful for all Bard Builds)
Rogue - +2 to Dexterity (This is only true for Finesse builds) / the other +2 only benefits the Skills with Intelligence as its base.
Wizard - +2 to Intelligence (+1 to DCs)


I would not stand in the way of adding other alternate Capstones, but to say that the Cleric's current Capstone is not useful means one of two things:


Don't understand its purpose/function
Not using it


Divine Intervention is a 100% Cheat Death and no penalty solution for the "Oh ****" moments that exists. Outside of the two Raid places (one going away next release) where divine intervention was used (or misused depending on what side of that debate you fall) it has practical use in everyday questing.

Uses are limited to having at least one Turn, but the buff lasts/cooldown is for 5 minutes and the regeneration rate for Radiant Servant allows for 2.5 to regenerate in the time this buff is available if its never activated.

Used on the Cleric (self)
gives a 5 minute renewable insurance policy that is better then death pack (but can also be used in conjunction with) that the cleric will not be one shot'ed by an encounter or by accidental party member brain farts or pranks.

Used on other party members -
Tanks - prevents death, penalties and rebuffing. Tank does lose aggro, but they are a Tank, shouldn't be too much trouble for them to get it back.

Also good to use on the Mass Cure/Heal Target - Does two things: lets them know they are marked and can prevents them from dying and possibly the other members because you no longer have a target (Some clerics have solved this by making themselves the target of mass cure/heal)

Also good to use on Party members designated for Kiting duty - This gives a buffer for when their is a barrier or distance between you and them in case something does manage to catch up to the kiter.

Party Members that are usually cheaper to raise than heal or your non-rogue/artificer Trap finders.

=================================================
Is the Capstone Uber? Well that really depends on the person using it, what is good for one goose is not always good for the gander.

GermanicusMaximus
10-31-2011, 07:47 PM
I would not stand in the way of adding other alternate Capstones, but to say that the Cleric's current Capstone is not useful means one of two things:


Don't understand its purpose/function
Not using it




Cleric Divine Intervention: You can expend a turn attempt to ward your target for five minutes against mortal damage, hit point damage will not lower target hit point total below -9. If the target is knocked unconscious, this effect will heal the target after a few seconds for 10 to 39 hit points and then fade.

Hmmm, 10 to 39 HPs? Not much for anyone running level appropriate content. More than anything, it sounds like a sorry attempt at rescuing someone from substandard cleric play.

TDarkchylde
10-31-2011, 08:19 PM
That barely improves it at all. Turns regen. For every DI you can use, 2 and a half regens occur.That's currently only for Radiant Servant. If Turbine ever releases Warpriest or Exorcist of the Silver Flame, this may no longer be the rule.